[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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>>TY: This is so fun to be
back in the studio doing Table
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Talk.
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I think we should acknowledge
the fact that this isn't just
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the four of us.
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We've got some incredible
people behind the scenes that
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have all the technical
knowledge, ability, and
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talent, we've got Jim
Hunegart leading out and just
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organizing all of this.
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>>DAVID: He's going in circles.
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>>TY: He's going circles
around us, but here's our
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behind the scenes team,
you guys, what a blessing they
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are, we got Steve Vadano
in the house, who's just, and
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we've got Brandon, of course,
with his living creature on
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his face, he calls it a
beard, but man, that thing is...
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>>DAVID: That's a thing
of beauty is what that is.
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>>TY: It is, it really is.
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So, thank you to the
guys behind the scenes who are
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actually making this
happen, it's just a blessing.
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Revelation chapters 4 and
5 is where we're at in our
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discussion and these are, I
think, for all of us, two of
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the most incredible
chapters in the bible.
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There is something being
said here that is without
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exaggeration, on
the level of astounding.
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Chapter 4, verse 1, opens
with this arresting line, after
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these things, I looked, and
behold, a door standing open
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in heaven.
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And then, from that beginning,
chapter four, then chapter
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five unfolds this incredible
throne room scene where this
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is all this activity
taking place and multiple
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intersecting personalities,
it's just a very lively,
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active scene, but it's not
just activity for the sake of
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activity, there are pivotal,
crucial, vital things that are
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going down in human history,
and heaven and earth are
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intersecting.
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You have things happening
in real time, on earth, and you
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have the heavenly community
responding to the things that
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are taking place on earth.
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So, let's just begin to unpack
Revelation 4 and 5 and this
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heavenly throne room scene,
what stands out to you guys?
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What's going on, first of all,
beginning with chapter four?
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>>JEFFREY: It
says, come up here.
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>>TY: Come up here, yeah.
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>>JEFFREY: In verse one.
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That's all I wanted to say, I
just love how it says, come up
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here.
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>>DAVID: Climb up to
the top of this tree.
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>>JEFFREY: Yeah,
it's an invitation.
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>>JAMES: Another thing that
I think is important here as we
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start these two chapters is,
it's the voice of the trumpet
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that John heard the first time.
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So, Jesus is the one
communicating with him, and
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the reason that's important
is because sometimes, we wanna
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put a time element on what
we're about to see because it
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introduces the vision that's
introduced to us is the lamb
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who was slain in the
midst of the throne and we wanna
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recognize that the lamb
slain in the midst of the throne
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picture that God is
showing John is something.
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This is already kind of taken
place already and John is just
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being shown a
rehearsal of it, in a sense.
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Jesus is speaking to John,
he's saying, come up here, I
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wanna show you some things.
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And a lot of people say,
oh, things that must come
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hereafter, this is all future,
but in a sense, it's preparing
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for future events,
opening the seals, but in that
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preparation, Jesus is
actually going backwards.
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We're going to see in verse
2, the most incredible thing or
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testimony of the entire book
of Revelation, but it doesn't
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seem that way.
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And here it is, immediately,
I was in the Spirit and behold,
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a throne was set in heaven.
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>>TY: And what
sat on the throne?
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>>JAMES: This throne that's
sat in heaven is the throne of
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God.
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And Revelation chapter
12 brings this out in more
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detail, now has come
salvation, strength in the
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power of our God because
the accuser our brother is cast
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out, which accused them
before God day and night.
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This picture right here in
verse 2 is a picture of God's
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throne, which is in
question, God's kingdom, God's
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character, which has been put,
blackened by Satan, it's set
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in heaven, it is
established in heaven.
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All of the unfallen worlds,
Revelation 12 says, rejoice,
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ye heavens, well, on the
earth, the devil's come down
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to you with great
power, he knows it's time.
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But rejoice ye heavens.
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And so, Revelation chapter
4, verse 2, is setting us up for
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what's going to follow, well,
how did God's throne get set
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up in heaven?
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How are the questions of the
great controversy answered in
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heaven?
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How is it that everyone
in heaven is good with God's
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character that the rainbow
that the manifestation of
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God's justice and mercy,
how is that all been answered?
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And Revelation chapter
5 is gonna answer that.
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But I think that this point
right here, God's throne is
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set in heaven, that throne is
yet to be set on planet earth.
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It's yet to be established in
our hearts and on this planet.
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>>TY: Well, that raises a
very significant theological and
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philosophical question because
when people think of God, they
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tend, we tend to
think of sheer power.
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God is sovereign, God is
powerful, God is in control if
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God is anything.
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So, why would God's
throne have to be set at all?
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Was it ever unsettled?
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What is it that brought it
into some kind of question or
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jeopardy or, do you
understand my question?
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Why would there be any need...
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>>JAMES: There's a
question about God's throne.
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>>TY: Yeah, why would there
be any need at all to set or
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establish it?
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>>DAVID: Moments ago, James
was just rattling through and
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doing a very good job
of sort of articulating the
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significance of 4:2, but
in the midst of all that, you
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threw in this phrase that is
probably quite familiar to us
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at the table, but may not
be to all of our viewers and
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that's the great controversy,
the great controversy.
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So, within the context of that
idea, just so we're clear, the
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book of Revelation is
set against the backdrop of a
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controversy, of a conflict, of
an argument, of a disagreement
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over a number of things,
not the least of which is God's
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conduct in the
governance of the universe.
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That's what's taking place
here which is why Satan is not
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referred to as having big
biceps or abs or whatever in
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terms of his
strength or his might.
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He's referred to as a
deceiver and as an accuser.
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So, if he's a deceiver
and an accuser, that suggests
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controversy.
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It suggests conflict,
dispute, argumentation.
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So, the idea that God's throne
would've been, in some sense,
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unsettled, not that his throne
could be unsettled by power or
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any other such thing,
but if God freely grants free
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creatures genuine free will,
then if they resist him, as CS
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Lewis famously said, you know,
the greatest miracle of all is
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the miracle of God making
something that could resist
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him.
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>>TY: That's astounding.
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>>DAVID: That's astonishing.
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And so, God allows himself to
be resisted, and in this case,
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and in the great controversy
described in Revelation, but
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found in the whole of
scripture, is this idea that
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God is under scrutiny,
that God and his conduct and his
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ways are under investigation,
under scrutiny, under
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evaluation, and, at least,
from Satan's perspective, they
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are found, he disagrees
with the way that God is doing
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things.
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>>TY: I think that this
is very important because I
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think, for many of us,
that would represent a huge
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paradigm shift because we
don't think of God Almighty as
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being subject to
scrutiny, being subject to
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investigation?
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Isn't it the other way around?
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We're subject to his scrutiny,
he's investigating us, but
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we're suggesting that God is
the kind of God who does not,
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by nature, have to make
himself accountable to us,
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it's a voluntary accountability.
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I mean, even the premise
of the gospel itself, in John
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3:16, for God so loved, that's
describing God's conduct, the
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world, that he gave,
still, we're describing God's
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conduct, that whoever
believes, that implies
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evaluation has occurred on
my part in order to believe.
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So, I'm engaging my mind,
my heart to believe in the
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display of this love, so
anybody who ends up believing
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in God has moved through an
evaluation process in order to
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even believe.
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So, God has made himself
accountable, voluntarily, to
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us.
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That's amazing, that you could
have that kind of power and
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say, you know what, I'm not
gonna force myself on you, I'm
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gonna back up, even get off
the throne, until you want me
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there.
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>>JEFFREY: So, the whole book
of Revelation, the whole book
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is like, why
would God even care?
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It's the revelation, in other
words, why the trouble of this
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revelation?
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Why the trouble of
disclosing yourself to humanity?
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Obviously, he's communicating
something there, but he values
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our assessment and our
judgement so much that he
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would subject
himself to our scrutiny.
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>>DAVID: I think the important
point to make here and I can
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just imagine that there might
be viewers that are watching
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that are like,
these guys are crazy.
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The idea that God would be
off of his throne in any sense,
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the idea that God would be
under scrutiny, that he would
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be under evaluation or
investigation, they're like,
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God is God, God is
sovereign, God is in control.
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And we just need to say that
the point here is not that God
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by nature is somehow being
overpowered by his creation or
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any other such thing.
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In terms of the resources
of omnipotence are at his
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disposal, that's not
the issue at stake here.
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This is God voluntarily
disclosing his ways, his
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method, his character, his
interactions, who he is in the
00:10:13.54\00:10:17.15
man Jesus Christ to win an
affection, to win attention
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and to win loyalty from those,
to use your word, Jeffrey,
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that he clearly values.
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I think we do not, not we,
but I think there's a lot of
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people that do not
sufficiently appreciate that
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God is in this, that we are
genuinely free creatures, and
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he longs to win us to
himself, he that loved us and
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washed us, he
wants us to want him.
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>>TY: You could say that
God is in control but he doesn't
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want control.
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>>DAVID: Or you could
say he's in control, but not
00:10:49.48\00:10:51.98
controlling.
00:10:51.98\00:10:52.98
>>JAMES: Yeah,
that's it, I like that.
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>>TY: You could say that
God is in control, but he wants
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something more than control.
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So, if any given person in
a relationship has the upper
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hand, in physical strength,
mental aptitude, financial
00:11:05.06\00:11:10.40
advantage, you could
either use your advantages to
00:11:10.40\00:11:16.47
manipulate somebody into
subjection to you, or you
00:11:16.47\00:11:20.58
could hold your resources
of finance and mental aqueuity
00:11:20.58\00:11:25.11
and strength in reserve
in favor of wanting something
00:11:25.11\00:11:27.95
better.
00:11:27.95\00:11:29.42
I want you to want me.
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I want you, I want you.
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Therefore, I want you, I
want the want to go both ways, I
00:11:34.39\00:11:37.59
want desire to be reciprocal.
00:11:37.59\00:11:39.39
I love you, God seems to
be saying, and I don't wanna
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control you, I want
you to love me back.
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So, that's a
pretty high objective.
00:11:47.44\00:11:49.00
That doesn't make, in my mind,
anyway, that doesn't make God
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look smaller in my estimation,
that makes God look bigger in
00:11:51.41\00:11:55.14
more beautiful ways.
00:11:55.14\00:11:58.95
>>JAMES: He looks huge.
00:11:58.95\00:12:00.72
And this is the thing
that sometimes, I think we miss
00:12:00.72\00:12:02.58
sometimes when we study
Revelation, especially when we
00:12:02.58\00:12:04.22
look at prophetically
and intellectually.
00:12:04.22\00:12:06.29
When John is shown, come up
hither and I'm gonna show you
00:12:06.29\00:12:09.66
things that must be hereafter,
we're thinking about events.
00:12:09.66\00:12:11.96
We're thinking about you know,
judgements and antichrist and
00:12:11.96\00:12:18.00
all of the different
interpretations, yeah, I wanna
00:12:18.00\00:12:21.90
show you something that's
gonna happen hereafter, and
00:12:21.90\00:12:24.37
then, he immediately begins
with God's throne being set in
00:12:24.37\00:12:27.08
heaven, as if to tell us that
the most important events that
00:12:27.08\00:12:30.75
I'm going to show you in
the future all tie into God's
00:12:30.75\00:12:34.48
throne being set and
God's throne being set.
00:12:34.48\00:12:36.48
Everything that I'm about
to show you, every prophetic
00:12:36.48\00:12:38.85
event, every prophecy,
every kingdom that's risen and
00:12:38.85\00:12:41.52
fallen, all of these kingdoms,
all of these prophecies, all
00:12:41.52\00:12:44.19
center in the throne of
God being set in heaven.
00:12:44.19\00:12:47.20
It's all about God's throne
being established in heaven
00:12:47.20\00:12:50.53
and I love that, because
not only, see, John just says
00:12:50.53\00:12:54.40
that.
00:12:54.40\00:12:55.57
The reason why we've jumped
into this is because that's
00:12:55.57\00:12:56.91
what it says in verse 2, it
just says, God's throne is set
00:12:56.91\00:12:59.27
in heaven, and we said, oh,
God's throne is set in heaven,
00:12:59.27\00:13:01.31
but the implications of that
have not yet been nuanced for
00:13:01.31\00:13:05.21
us and they were nuanced
all the way through the rest of
00:13:05.21\00:13:07.22
the chapters.
00:13:07.22\00:13:08.38
Chapter 5, for example, is
gonna tell us how God's throne
00:13:08.38\00:13:10.65
got set in heaven.
00:13:10.65\00:13:11.65
How did it happen?
00:13:11.65\00:13:13.05
Well, when we start
understanding how it happened,
00:13:13.05\00:13:16.12
then, it'll make more sense
to our viewers and everyone and
00:13:16.12\00:13:20.70
us even more, it'll make more
sense as to what actually is
00:13:20.70\00:13:24.30
at stake here, how God's
throne was threatened, what
00:13:24.30\00:13:27.34
the answer to that threat
was from God, how he established
00:13:27.34\00:13:30.91
his throne in heaven, and
that, of course, in chapter 5
00:13:30.91\00:13:34.98
is just gonna be
beautiful picture.
00:13:34.98\00:13:37.21
>>TY: I think it's
important to notice, as we first
00:13:37.21\00:13:41.18
mentioned, that there's a
lot of activity and there are a
00:13:41.18\00:13:44.19
lot of intersecting
personalities, so we haven't
00:13:44.19\00:13:46.92
read much of the text, let
me just, let me just call our
00:13:46.92\00:13:49.42
attention to the fact that, in
verse 2, you read, James, that
00:13:49.42\00:13:52.79
there's a throne sat in heaven
and there's one who is seated
00:13:52.79\00:13:56.73
upon the throne, then,
in verse 3, the throne is
00:13:56.73\00:13:59.90
described as having a rainbow
around it that is in color
00:13:59.90\00:14:04.84
like emerald.
00:14:04.84\00:14:06.04
In verse 4, then it says that
around the throne, there are
00:14:06.04\00:14:09.18
24 elders, and on the,
excuse me, 24 thrones and on the
00:14:09.18\00:14:16.15
thrones, I saw 24 elders,
sitting, clothed in white
00:14:16.15\00:14:21.32
robes, and they had
crowns of gold on their head.
00:14:21.32\00:14:23.69
And then, in verse 5,
and from the throne proceeded
00:14:23.69\00:14:26.70
lightning's and thundering's
and voices, 7 lamps of fire
00:14:26.70\00:14:31.17
were burning before the
throne, which are the seven
00:14:31.17\00:14:33.94
spirits of God.
00:14:33.94\00:14:34.97
That's strange language,
I wonder what that means.
00:14:34.97\00:14:36.94
Verse 6 tells us that not only
are these, there are these 24
00:14:36.94\00:14:40.54
elders, but there are these
four living creatures, full of
00:14:40.54\00:14:46.45
eyes, in front and on the back.
00:14:46.45\00:14:49.92
So, God, so if we could just
imagine it, God is enthroned,
00:14:49.92\00:14:55.82
he's seated upon the
throne, but he's surrounded with
00:14:55.82\00:15:00.56
others who apparently, by the
language, are participating in
00:15:00.56\00:15:06.00
the proceedings, the events
that are taking place in this
00:15:06.00\00:15:09.60
room.
00:15:09.60\00:15:10.91
Now, I think this is
fascinating that the reason
00:15:10.91\00:15:13.84
why it's called the revelation
is because it's referring back
00:15:13.84\00:15:19.75
to the fact that there
was an Old Testament set of
00:15:19.75\00:15:23.25
prophecies in the book
of Daniel that were closed,
00:15:23.25\00:15:26.92
sealed, and now, a revelation
of what Daniel saw is being
00:15:26.92\00:15:32.16
disclosed.
00:15:32.16\00:15:33.33
In Daniel chapter 7, he
has the same vision and in that
00:15:33.33\00:15:38.13
vision, chapter 7 of Daniel,
very specific language is
00:15:38.13\00:15:42.64
used, it says there is one who
sat on the throne, same thing,
00:15:42.64\00:15:46.01
he's surrounded by angels,
but then it says, the judgement
00:15:46.01\00:15:50.31
was set and the books were open.
00:15:50.31\00:15:52.71
So, we have a judgement scene.
00:15:52.71\00:15:54.28
Now, commentators on chapter
4 and 5 of Revelation make the
00:15:54.28\00:16:00.22
connection between Daniel
7 and Revelation 4 and 5 and
00:16:00.22\00:16:03.59
tell us that what we
have taking place here in
00:16:03.59\00:16:06.43
Revelation is not just
a busy room, we have court
00:16:06.43\00:16:11.20
proceedings that
are taking place.
00:16:11.20\00:16:13.27
There is a
judgement that is unfolding.
00:16:13.27\00:16:16.04
So, these individuals that
are in the room with God and
00:16:16.04\00:16:22.04
around God, they are seated
on thrones to participate in the
00:16:22.04\00:16:27.88
unfolding procedings
that are taking place.
00:16:27.88\00:16:31.19
Something's going on.
00:16:31.19\00:16:32.35
>>DAVID: Which already tells
you something about God and
00:16:32.35\00:16:35.49
his manner of governance.
00:16:35.49\00:16:37.13
He's a delegator.
00:16:37.13\00:16:38.83
There's no need for that.
00:16:38.83\00:16:40.03
If you have the resources of
perfect knowledge and perfect
00:16:40.03\00:16:42.90
strength, you don't
need other participants.
00:16:42.90\00:16:45.63
Yeah, what are they doing there?
00:16:45.63\00:16:48.17
>>TY: You just issue orders.
00:16:48.17\00:16:50.14
>>DAVID: That's already just
an insight into the fact that
00:16:50.14\00:16:52.21
God is not a micromanager.
00:16:52.21\00:16:54.04
He is involving others, as
you say, in the proceedings, in
00:16:54.04\00:16:58.48
the process, which is
already, because the chasm that
00:16:58.48\00:17:02.32
separates even an amoeba,
a unicellular organism, to an
00:17:02.32\00:17:06.72
archangel, or not to an
archangel, but to an angel,
00:17:06.72\00:17:08.72
Gabriel.
00:17:08.72\00:17:09.92
So, you go from an amoeba to
Gabriel and say that space is
00:17:09.92\00:17:12.93
that big, you know, and then,
you have all of the various
00:17:12.93\00:17:15.40
levels of
biological life in there.
00:17:15.40\00:17:17.73
Well, the chasm, God's
relationship to that spectrum
00:17:17.73\00:17:21.70
of life would be like, to use
this scale in like Washington
00:17:21.70\00:17:27.44
and we're in Oregon.
00:17:27.44\00:17:28.41
I mean, the chasm,
the difference between the
00:17:28.41\00:17:30.78
uncreated, I am self-existent
one, and any created being is
00:17:30.78\00:17:36.32
necessarily much
larger than this span.
00:17:36.32\00:17:40.59
So.
00:17:40.59\00:17:41.82
>>TY: Yeah, you could say that
you and I, David, we have more
00:17:41.82\00:17:44.53
in common with the amoeba...
00:17:44.53\00:17:48.50
>>DAVID: By far.
00:17:48.50\00:17:49.70
>>TY: ...than God in all of
his infinite God-ness has with
00:17:49.70\00:17:53.54
the highest created
intelligence, say, an angel.
00:17:53.54\00:17:55.97
>>DAVID: In terms
of, say, his nature.
00:17:55.97\00:17:57.87
Now, he has condescended to
relate to us and to make us in
00:17:57.87\00:18:00.98
our image, etcetera, but
the point is that why would God
00:18:00.98\00:18:05.21
need anybody on this spectrum
to assist in, that's right,
00:18:05.21\00:18:08.72
it's voluntary.
00:18:08.72\00:18:09.92
>>JEFFREY: It's almost like
the people participating, God
00:18:09.92\00:18:11.82
is setting it up so that
they would, in a sense, realize
00:18:11.82\00:18:15.12
that they would have reached
the same conclusions that God
00:18:15.12\00:18:17.43
himself would have reached.
00:18:17.43\00:18:19.39
In that sense.
00:18:19.39\00:18:20.60
>>TY: So, we're off to a good
start, Revelation chapter 4,
00:18:20.60\00:18:23.70
we've gotten through about
verse 6, and after the break,
00:18:23.70\00:18:26.23
we'll just come back and
continue breaking it down, we
00:18:26.23\00:18:28.94
need to ask the question, more
specifically, what is going on
00:18:28.94\00:18:32.67
here, what kind
of judgment is this?
00:18:32.67\00:18:35.14
Who's being judged, in fact?
00:18:35.14\00:18:37.75
[Music]
00:18:37.75\00:18:50.19
>>Hi, I'm Ty Gibson,
welcome to digma.com.
00:18:50.19\00:18:53.06
I am so excited about this
website because you're about
00:18:53.06\00:18:56.03
to discover a powerful new
way to share life transforming
00:18:56.03\00:18:59.90
messages and videos with your
family, friends, and anybody
00:18:59.90\00:19:03.64
else on the planet who
has access to a computer.
00:19:03.64\00:19:07.44
Digma is a Greek word.
00:19:07.44\00:19:08.98
It basically means, to show
or to reveal something by means
00:19:08.98\00:19:13.18
of a pattern or an
example of some kind.
00:19:13.18\00:19:15.82
It's the second half of the
word paradigma, from which we
00:19:15.82\00:19:19.42
get the English word
paradigm, as in paradigm shift.
00:19:19.42\00:19:24.26
And so, what you're going to
find at digma.com is a growing
00:19:24.26\00:19:27.23
library of short videos
and transcripts dealing with
00:19:27.23\00:19:30.77
paradigms and
fundamental questions.
00:19:30.77\00:19:33.90
What's the meaning of life?
00:19:33.90\00:19:35.04
What is our origin and
destiny as human beings?
00:19:35.04\00:19:39.71
What happens when we die?
00:19:39.71\00:19:41.98
Does God exist or are we
alone in this vast universe?
00:19:41.98\00:19:46.38
Why is there so much evil
and suffering in our world?
00:19:46.38\00:19:50.49
An estimated 70% of Americans
have a computer right in their
00:19:50.49\00:19:55.36
home and stay in touch with
family and friends by email,
00:19:55.36\00:19:59.33
and more than 400 million
people are active on Facebook,
00:19:59.33\00:20:03.80
and 5 million new users
are signing up every week.
00:20:03.80\00:20:08.74
We are literally in the midst
of a communications revolution
00:20:08.74\00:20:13.41
of massive proportion.
00:20:13.41\00:20:15.54
This is granting the
gospel direct and easy access to
00:20:15.54\00:20:20.15
millions upon millions of
homes and hearts, and that's
00:20:20.15\00:20:25.42
what digma.com is all about.
00:20:25.42\00:20:27.66
It's a tool for leading
our family and friends on an
00:20:27.66\00:20:32.16
exciting paradigm shift by
revealing the truth of God's
00:20:32.16\00:20:36.03
creative power and his
incredibly beautiful character
00:20:36.03\00:20:40.14
in contrast to our world's
popular misconceptions about
00:20:40.14\00:20:46.37
who God is.
00:20:46.37\00:20:47.78
[Music]
00:20:47.78\00:20:54.85
[Music]
00:20:54.85\00:20:55.72
[Music]
00:20:58.22\00:21:04.63
>>TY: Okay, so we have
this busy throne room scene with
00:21:04.63\00:21:07.56
all kinds of activities.
00:21:07.56\00:21:09.83
We've got 24 elders, we've
got 4 living creatures, do we
00:21:09.83\00:21:12.67
wanna pause and even
identify who these beings are?
00:21:12.67\00:21:16.47
>>JAMES: Well, the 24 elders
is interesting, I think, that
00:21:16.47\00:21:19.91
comes right after the 7
churches because, in verse 4,
00:21:19.91\00:21:22.04
it says, and round about the
throne there were 24 seats and
00:21:22.04\00:21:25.01
upon the seats, I saw 24
elders sitting clothed in
00:21:25.01\00:21:27.78
white raiment and they had
on their heads crowns of gold.
00:21:27.78\00:21:31.42
Three things there,
the thrones, the seats that
00:21:31.42\00:21:33.66
they're sitting in, the
white raiment, and the crowns of
00:21:33.66\00:21:36.62
gold were all
promised to overcomers.
00:21:36.62\00:21:39.29
>>JEFFREY: Through
the seven churches.
00:21:39.29\00:21:40.13
>>JAMES: Through
the seven churches.
00:21:40.13\00:21:41.03
>>TY: Oh, interesting.
00:21:41.03\00:21:42.20
>>JAMES: Yeah, so I think
these 24 elders are overcomers
00:21:42.20\00:21:45.70
and the reason I think that,
too, is because they're, in
00:21:45.70\00:21:48.17
chapter 5, they're redeemed
by the blood of the Lamb for
00:21:48.17\00:21:50.47
every nation, kindred tongue,
and people, and elder is never
00:21:50.47\00:21:53.98
used for anyone outside
of human beings in the entire
00:21:53.98\00:21:57.85
bible.
00:21:57.85\00:21:58.85
Angels were never called elders.
00:21:58.85\00:22:00.85
Whenever God has, gathering
in heaven, elders were never
00:22:00.85\00:22:03.28
mentioned in the,
it's always human beings.
00:22:03.28\00:22:05.35
And what's really fascinating
to me, I know we talked about
00:22:05.35\00:22:07.46
this a little bit, touched on
it a little bit is, the elders
00:22:07.46\00:22:11.19
from this introduction right
here, all through the book of
00:22:11.19\00:22:13.83
Revelation take part in
informing John about different
00:22:13.83\00:22:18.13
scenes that are going to happen.
00:22:18.13\00:22:20.54
One of the elders comes
and taps him on the shoulder.
00:22:20.54\00:22:21.80
One of the elders
asked me this question.
00:22:21.80\00:22:23.24
One of the elders
shows me this woman.
00:22:23.24\00:22:25.47
So, it's like the elders
represent redeemed and the
00:22:25.47\00:22:28.94
redeemed, again, the book of
Revelation's instructive to us
00:22:28.94\00:22:31.91
because it's telling us, you,
these elders represent you and
00:22:31.91\00:22:34.98
this is the part you play
in this plan of salvation.
00:22:34.98\00:22:37.52
>>TY: Yeah, in addition
to that, we know who the 24
00:22:37.52\00:22:39.49
elders are because of the
symbolism that is employed to
00:22:39.49\00:22:45.09
describe them.
00:22:45.09\00:22:46.36
Number one, there are 24
of them, which, in the book of
00:22:46.36\00:22:49.20
Revelation, later on, in
chapters 21 and 22, refers to
00:22:49.20\00:22:52.63
the two divisions of human
beings through history, Old
00:22:52.63\00:22:55.84
Testament, 12 tribes of
Israel, New Testament, 12
00:22:55.84\00:23:00.24
apostles, in the city, 12
gates, 12 foundations, over
00:23:00.24\00:23:04.55
which the redeemed
passed to enter the city.
00:23:04.55\00:23:06.58
So, 24 is a number
that symbolically represents
00:23:06.58\00:23:11.35
redeemed human beings.
00:23:11.35\00:23:13.05
Secondly, we know that they're
redeemed human beings because
00:23:13.05\00:23:16.22
the symbolism of the 24
elders is drawn from a sanctuary
00:23:16.22\00:23:19.86
symbolism, the Old Testament
describes the fact that there
00:23:19.86\00:23:24.27
were 24 courses or 24 shifts
for the priesthood where they
00:23:24.27\00:23:30.87
moved through a cycle through
the year, where they were
00:23:30.87\00:23:33.64
holding the post of duty, the
various priests held a post of
00:23:33.64\00:23:39.48
duty for a period of time.
00:23:39.48\00:23:41.75
There are 24 cycles.
00:23:41.75\00:23:43.65
Secondly, or thirdly...
00:23:43.65\00:23:44.62
>>DAVID: What was that text, Ty?
00:23:44.62\00:23:45.25
>>TY: Old Testament.
00:23:45.25\00:23:47.32
Find it, bro.
00:23:47.32\00:23:48.16
>>DAVID: Okay, I'll find it.
00:23:48.16\00:23:49.22
>>TY: So.
00:23:49.22\00:23:50.56
>>DAVID: I just thought
you quoted it and I missed it.
00:23:50.56\00:23:51.73
>>TY: No, and then, in chapter
5, it says that they have
00:23:51.73\00:23:53.70
golden bowls full of incense,
which are the prayers of the
00:23:53.70\00:23:58.00
saints.
00:23:58.00\00:23:59.10
So, they are occupying a
priestly function, a priestly
00:23:59.10\00:24:02.34
role.
00:24:02.34\00:24:03.24
>>JAMES: It even
says that in verse 10.
00:24:03.24\00:24:04.27
You are made as
kings and priests.
00:24:04.27\00:24:05.91
>>TY: Kings and priests, okay.
00:24:05.91\00:24:07.11
So, they're in a priestly role.
00:24:07.11\00:24:08.88
Angels are never described
as having a priestly role, but
00:24:08.88\00:24:12.21
I'll go a step further, Jesus
Christ himself couldn't occupy
00:24:12.21\00:24:16.28
the priestly role
except by means on incarnation,
00:24:16.28\00:24:19.45
according to
the book of Hebrews.
00:24:19.45\00:24:21.46
He literally became a human
being in order to occupy the
00:24:21.46\00:24:25.53
priestly role.
00:24:25.53\00:24:26.59
>>JEFFREY: Hebrews 5:1
says always taken among men.
00:24:26.59\00:24:29.46
>>TY: That's right.
00:24:29.46\00:24:30.53
>>JEFFREY: The priest is
always taken from among men.
00:24:30.53\00:24:32.77
>>TY: Yeah, so
clearly, the redeemed.
00:24:32.77\00:24:35.37
Now, we can add to that and
I know, Jeffrey, you mentioned
00:24:35.37\00:24:38.21
this scripture at one
point, that when Jesus was
00:24:38.21\00:24:43.61
resurrected form the
dead, there was a special
00:24:43.61\00:24:47.02
resurrection, we don't
know how many people, but there
00:24:47.02\00:24:50.69
were people, according to the
gospel account in Matthew, is
00:24:50.69\00:24:54.99
it?
00:24:54.99\00:24:55.79
>>JAMES: Yeah.
00:24:55.79\00:24:56.86
>>TY: Where Jesus was
resurrected and some others
00:24:56.86\00:24:58.43
were resurrected with him
and Paul calls them the first
00:24:58.43\00:25:01.06
fruits of redemption.
00:25:01.06\00:25:04.60
So, there are some human
beings who are not awaiting
00:25:04.60\00:25:09.47
resurrection, they've already
been resurrected and they're
00:25:09.47\00:25:11.71
apparently in the throne
room participating in the
00:25:11.71\00:25:15.71
proceedings of the judgment.
00:25:15.71\00:25:18.55
>>DAVID: There's some
great evidences there.
00:25:18.55\00:25:21.48
>>JEFFREY: So, it's like
we have representation on
00:25:21.48\00:25:23.65
multiple levels, right?
00:25:23.65\00:25:24.85
>>TY: That's right.
00:25:24.85\00:25:26.02
>>JEFFREY: On multiple levels,
'cause the Christ, through
00:25:26.02\00:25:28.02
incarnation, we identify
with him, solidarity, and then,
00:25:28.02\00:25:31.49
now, it's almost as if
he's adding more options to
00:25:31.49\00:25:36.13
identify with, so to speak,
if you understand what I'm
00:25:36.13\00:25:38.00
saying.
00:25:38.00\00:25:39.03
>>DAVID: The idea, just
briefly, the idea that, I
00:25:39.03\00:25:40.84
think you said Matthew 27,
which I think is correct, the
00:25:40.84\00:25:42.90
resurrected were
the first fruits...
00:25:42.90\00:25:45.64
>>JAMES: Yeah, 52.
00:25:45.64\00:25:46.88
>>DAVID: ...is straight out of
the Jewish economy, the feast.
00:25:46.88\00:25:49.61
You have the Passover feast
that was then followed by the
00:25:49.61\00:25:51.91
feast of first fruits, which
is where the priest would wave
00:25:51.91\00:25:54.12
the barley or the wheat, the
sheaf in anticipation that all
00:25:54.12\00:25:59.15
the harvest is his,
but here's the first.
00:25:59.15\00:26:01.46
>>JEFFREY: Paul uses that
language in 1 Corinthians.
00:26:01.46\00:26:03.46
>>DAVID: Yeah, he
uses that very language.
00:26:03.46\00:26:05.46
>>JEFFREY: The first fruits.
00:26:05.46\00:26:06.46
>>DAVID: The first fruits.
00:26:06.46\00:26:07.50
So, this idea that this
anticipates the much larger
00:26:07.50\00:26:10.10
resurrection of
all of humanity...
00:26:10.10\00:26:12.17
>>JEFFREY: And guarantees it.
00:26:12.17\00:26:13.90
>>DAVID: ...guarantees it.
00:26:13.90\00:26:14.90
Okay.
00:26:14.90\00:26:16.10
>>TY: We also can identify
the four living creatures pretty
00:26:16.10\00:26:18.14
clearly in scripture because
the book of Revelation is a
00:26:18.14\00:26:21.84
composite of Old
Testament passages.
00:26:21.84\00:26:24.38
He's just constantly
drawing from the Old Testament,
00:26:24.38\00:26:26.72
drawing from the Old Testament.
00:26:26.72\00:26:27.95
>>DAVID: Hundreds of times.
00:26:27.95\00:26:28.95
>>TY: That's right.
00:26:28.95\00:26:30.19
He's drawing these four living
creatures from Ezekiel chapter
00:26:30.19\00:26:32.39
1.
00:26:32.39\00:26:33.39
>>JAMES: And Isaiah 6.
00:26:33.39\00:26:34.39
>>TY: And Isaiah 6.
00:26:34.39\00:26:35.59
>>JAMES: And I heard someone
say recently that if you, you
00:26:35.59\00:26:37.96
will never understand the
book of Revelation unless you
00:26:37.96\00:26:40.06
understand the Old Testament.
00:26:40.06\00:26:41.50
>>TY: That's right.
00:26:41.50\00:26:42.63
>>DAVID: [Chuckling]
00:26:42.63\00:26:43.63
>>TY: I take it David said that.
00:26:43.63\00:26:46.30
>>JAMES: Yes, the guy
with the polkadot shirt.
00:26:46.30\00:26:48.30
>>DAVID: I'm sure I'm not
the only one that said it, but I
00:26:48.30\00:26:50.47
did say that.
00:26:50.47\00:26:51.51
>>TY: So, the four
living creatures are not human
00:26:51.51\00:26:53.88
beings, if you look at the
passage, if you look at the
00:26:53.88\00:26:56.41
Ezekiel 1 passage, because
they are described as four
00:26:56.41\00:27:00.58
living creatures that are
around the throne and it says
00:27:00.58\00:27:05.79
that from them,
lightning proceeds.
00:27:05.79\00:27:08.49
And then, when Ezekiel
the prophet looks a little bit
00:27:08.49\00:27:10.66
closer, he says that,
well, the lightning that was
00:27:10.66\00:27:12.66
proceeding out from and
back to each of the four living
00:27:12.66\00:27:16.16
creatures, the lightning, upon
closer investigation, was full
00:27:16.16\00:27:20.40
of eyes.
00:27:20.40\00:27:21.34
You got one and two
options at that point.
00:27:21.34\00:27:24.34
Either he's seeing something
like a horror flick where
00:27:24.34\00:27:27.04
you've got free-floating
eyeballs, or you, wherever you
00:27:27.04\00:27:31.01
see eyes, there's
a body behind them.
00:27:31.01\00:27:34.25
So, the four living creatures
have charge over angelic
00:27:34.25\00:27:40.82
beings that proceed at their
command back and forth between
00:27:40.82\00:27:44.93
heaven and earth, and this
is an incredible picture because
00:27:44.93\00:27:49.13
you've got the 24 elders
who are holding golden bowls,
00:27:49.13\00:27:53.03
symbolically, these
are symbolic pictures.
00:27:53.03\00:27:55.27
Golden bowls full of prayers.
00:27:55.27\00:27:56.67
So, you've got human
beings on earth who are praying.
00:27:56.67\00:27:59.51
They're prayer auditors,
prayer processors, so then,
00:27:59.51\00:28:02.71
they're deciding what kinds
of answers need to be given to
00:28:02.71\00:28:07.35
these prayers because they're
human beings at a priestly
00:28:07.35\00:28:09.55
role and they identify
with the human race and they
00:28:09.55\00:28:11.65
understand the human
predicament and so, they're
00:28:11.65\00:28:13.82
the ones processing the prayers.
00:28:13.82\00:28:15.82
God is the delegator,
he's given them that charge.
00:28:15.82\00:28:17.83
Those prayers that are
passed on to the four living
00:28:17.83\00:28:19.86
creatures who dispatch angels
to answer those prayers on
00:28:19.86\00:28:24.87
missions of mercy to the
world and scripture fills this
00:28:24.87\00:28:27.64
picture out because Jesus
himself said, on the premise
00:28:27.64\00:28:31.54
of what I'm about to
accomplish in dying at
00:28:31.54\00:28:35.28
Calvary, you will hereafter
see the angels of heaven
00:28:35.28\00:28:41.35
ascending and descending upon
the accomplishments of the son
00:28:41.35\00:28:44.39
of man.
00:28:44.39\00:28:45.55
>>JAMES: And Matthew even
says, in chapter 28 and verse
00:28:45.55\00:28:47.49
3, that the angel that
descended from heaven, his
00:28:47.49\00:28:51.26
countenance was like lightning.
00:28:51.26\00:28:53.26
>>TY: Oh, where?
00:28:53.26\00:28:54.46
>>JAMES: Matthew 28 and verse
3, his countenance was like
00:28:54.46\00:28:58.60
lightning and his
raiment white as snow.
00:28:58.60\00:29:00.64
There's a couple of
places where angels are like
00:29:00.64\00:29:02.64
lightning.
00:29:02.64\00:29:03.57
>>TY: They associate
lightning with angels.
00:29:03.57\00:29:05.64
So, this is an
incredible picture, isn't it?
00:29:05.64\00:29:07.64
There's all this activity,
but the activity is all focused
00:29:07.64\00:29:09.64
earthward.
00:29:09.64\00:29:10.78
It's all focused, and what
does it say in Hebrews that
00:29:10.78\00:29:12.65
the angels are ministering
spirits, sent forth to
00:29:12.65\00:29:16.18
minister to those who will
be the ministers of salvation.
00:29:16.18\00:29:18.25
>>JAMES: That's why they
look like the face of a man,
00:29:18.25\00:29:20.39
because they come in human
form, they look like an eagle,
00:29:20.39\00:29:23.59
because they fly with speed,
they look like an ox because
00:29:23.59\00:29:26.49
they come to minister,
they're a symbol of servance.
00:29:26.49\00:29:29.83
And the other one,
they have the face of a...
00:29:29.83\00:29:33.23
>>DAVID: Lion?
00:29:33.23\00:29:34.24
>>JAMES: Calf?
00:29:34.24\00:29:35.24
The man, the eagle...
00:29:35.24\00:29:37.17
>>DAVID: The oxen and the lion.
00:29:37.17\00:29:38.81
>>JAMES: The lion, strength,
power, authority from heaven.
00:29:38.81\00:29:41.11
>>TY: Oh, that's good stuff.
00:29:41.11\00:29:42.08
>>DAVID: I never
heard that in my whole life.
00:29:42.08\00:29:44.45
>>JAMES: Oh, yeah.
00:29:44.45\00:29:45.98
>>TY: I've never heard a
lot of the things you guys are
00:29:45.98\00:29:47.35
saying.
00:29:47.35\00:29:48.18
>>DAVID: Two high
fives in one session?
00:29:48.18\00:29:49.62
>>JAMES: And it's four, you
know why it's four, you know
00:29:49.62\00:29:51.22
why angels are four?
00:29:51.22\00:29:52.65
Four is a significant number
in Revelation, north, south,
00:29:52.65\00:29:55.09
east, and west.
00:29:55.09\00:29:56.29
The parable of the sower and
the seed, four types of earth,
00:29:56.29\00:29:59.39
four horses, it's
the whole human race.
00:29:59.39\00:30:02.36
So, this is all the...
00:30:02.36\00:30:03.37
>>DAVID: I'm
sorry, in Revelation.
00:30:03.37\00:30:04.43
>>JAMES: Yeah, so
this is all the angels.
00:30:04.43\00:30:05.87
>>TY: Love that.
00:30:05.87\00:30:06.97
>>JAMES: So, you have
this picture, these angels that
00:30:06.97\00:30:08.14
come with power and authority,
they come with speed, they
00:30:08.14\00:30:11.04
come in the form of
human, they come to serve.
00:30:11.04\00:30:14.21
come in the form of
human, they come to serve.
00:30:14.21\00:30:14.44
>>TY: Incredible.
00:30:14.71\00:30:16.28
So, all of this busy activity
is going on toward ministry to
00:30:16.28\00:30:21.32
the human race.
00:30:21.32\00:30:23.25
Where does the vision
go from there in chapter 4?
00:30:23.25\00:30:26.86
Where does the vision
go from there in chapter 4?
00:30:26.86\00:30:27.02
>>DAVID: I just wanna ask
you a quick question, maybe I
00:30:28.06\00:30:29.66
misheard you.
00:30:29.66\00:30:30.56
Did you say that
the lightning has eyes?
00:30:30.56\00:30:32.79
>>TY: Yeah, in
chapter 1 of Ezekiel.
00:30:32.79\00:30:34.50
>>DAVID: Okay, you
don't know the verse offhand?
00:30:34.50\00:30:36.36
>>TY: Uh....
00:30:36.36\00:30:37.80
>>DAVID: We can find it on
the break and, 'cause I was just
00:30:37.80\00:30:39.83
reading through
it trying to find it.
00:30:39.83\00:30:41.87
reading through
it trying to find it.
00:30:41.87\00:30:42.00
I found verse 14 that says and
the living creatures ran back
00:30:43.14\00:30:45.57
and forth in appearance
like a flash of lightning.
00:30:45.57\00:30:48.71
>>TY: Yes.
00:30:48.71\00:30:50.95
>>DAVID: Is that the one. So,
they're creatures, so they have
00:30:50.95\00:30:52.68
eyes, or is there a
text that expressly says...
00:30:52.68\00:30:55.95
>>JAMES: That's the other
one that basically confirms that
00:30:55.95\00:30:58.12
angels are like lightning.
00:30:58.12\00:30:59.42
>>DAVID: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's what I was thinking.
00:30:59.42\00:31:00.79
So, I was just wondering if
there was a text that, 'cause
00:31:00.79\00:31:03.86
that was a new
idea to me, this idea...
00:31:03.86\00:31:05.76
>>TY: It's verse 18,
full of eyes, their rims were.
00:31:05.76\00:31:09.80
>>DAVID: As for their rims,
they were so hot, they were
00:31:09.80\00:31:11.93
awesome and their
rims were full of eyes.
00:31:11.93\00:31:13.60
What is a rim?
00:31:13.60\00:31:14.80
>>TY: Well, if you go back
to the, yeah, if you go back to
00:31:14.80\00:31:17.37
verses 13 and onward,
basically, what Ezekiel is
00:31:17.37\00:31:21.88
describing is that the
four living creatures, this is
00:31:21.88\00:31:25.68
amazing, by the way, the
four living creatures are around
00:31:25.68\00:31:28.68
the throne, and watch this,
it says in Ezekiel 1, they're
00:31:28.68\00:31:30.75
running back and forth.
00:31:30.75\00:31:32.49
Well, it's not aimless
running, they're not just
00:31:32.49\00:31:35.06
doing their cardio for the day.
00:31:35.06\00:31:36.56
No, they're running back
and forth, it's describing that
00:31:36.56\00:31:40.83
they're constantly in
communication, consulting with
00:31:40.83\00:31:43.40
one another.
00:31:43.40\00:31:44.57
Now, David just prayed, now,
I'm thinking that this would
00:31:44.57\00:31:46.67
be, is that the best thing?
00:31:46.67\00:31:47.90
I'm gonna run over
here and get his opinion.
00:31:47.90\00:31:50.61
You know what I'm saying?
00:31:50.61\00:31:52.04
It's kind of a table talk.
00:31:52.04\00:31:53.64
It's kind of a table talk.
00:31:53.64\00:31:54.71
>>DAVID: We do have the
four living creatures here.
00:31:54.71\00:31:56.71
I want to be the man.
00:31:56.71\00:31:58.25
>>TY: You got these four
living creatures, okay, and
00:31:58.25\00:32:01.35
they're running back and forth
to one another, and in Ezekiel
00:32:01.35\00:32:05.09
chapter one, they're all
moved, it says, by the spirit,
00:32:05.09\00:32:08.89
the Holy Spirit is the
one, so, there's this order of
00:32:08.89\00:32:13.19
interaction, there's
an orderliness to it.
00:32:13.19\00:32:15.63
The Holy Spirit is directing
the four living creatures.
00:32:15.63\00:32:17.30
The four living creatures
are interacting with the 24
00:32:17.30\00:32:19.87
elders.
00:32:19.87\00:32:21.14
The 24 elders are processing
human prayers and the four
00:32:21.14\00:32:24.14
living creatures are
dispatching angels to answer
00:32:24.14\00:32:26.17
those prayers.
00:32:26.17\00:32:27.01
It's just an
incredibly active picture.
00:32:27.01\00:32:30.68
>>DAVID: The elders don't
show up as such in Ezekiel 1, do
00:32:30.68\00:32:33.42
they?
00:32:33.42\00:32:34.08
>>TY: No, they don't show up.
00:32:34.08\00:32:35.28
>>JAMES: And that's the thing
about it, they don't show up
00:32:35.28\00:32:36.48
in Isaiah 6 either.
00:32:36.48\00:32:37.65
So, in the Old Testament
picture of the throne room
00:32:37.65\00:32:40.56
where you have these living
creatures, these angels...
00:32:40.56\00:32:42.32
>>TY: I know
what you're gonna say.
00:32:42.32\00:32:43.46
>>JAMES: You have no 24 elders.
00:32:43.46\00:32:44.83
In Ezekiel, you
have no 24 elders.
00:32:44.83\00:32:47.36
>>DAVID: And in the
interaction, you have elders.
00:32:47.36\00:32:49.40
>>JAMES: Yes, and
that's another reason why these
00:32:49.40\00:32:52.33
elders represent
redeemed human beings.
00:32:52.33\00:32:54.47
Because they don't show...
00:32:54.47\00:32:55.37
>>TY: Did you know
that before right now?
00:32:55.37\00:32:57.24
>>JAMES: Yes, in fact, check
this out, in fact, check this
00:32:57.24\00:32:59.24
out, John is specifically
being shown post-resurrection,
00:32:59.24\00:33:05.28
the very thing that Isaiah
was shown and Ezekiel was shown
00:33:05.28\00:33:08.28
for this very reason.
00:33:08.28\00:33:09.75
I'm gonna show you the exact
same thing that he was shown.
00:33:09.75\00:33:12.55
I'm gonna show you the exact
same thing that Ezekiel was
00:33:12.55\00:33:14.06
shown, but I'm gonna
show you a difference.
00:33:14.06\00:33:16.89
There's 24 elders now.
00:33:16.89\00:33:18.06
How'd they get there?
00:33:18.06\00:33:19.29
Chapter 5 will tell us.
00:33:19.29\00:33:20.93
How did these elders get there?
00:33:20.93\00:33:22.40
>>DAVID: The kings and priests.
00:33:22.40\00:33:23.33
>>TY: They were redeemed.
00:33:23.33\00:33:24.57
>>JAMES: Redeemed from
the Lamb that was slain.
00:33:24.57\00:33:27.64
>>DAVID: Sorry for that little
diversion, I just was, okay,
00:33:27.64\00:33:30.81
that's awesome.
00:33:30.81\00:33:31.84
>>TY: Okay, so back in
Revelation 4, then, we've
00:33:31.84\00:33:33.91
identified.
00:33:33.91\00:33:35.34
>>DAVID: It's the throne,
and it's all of this busy
00:33:35.34\00:33:38.05
activity.
00:33:38.05\00:33:38.91
Are we ready for 5 yet, or no?
00:33:38.91\00:33:40.78
>>JAMES: Well, verse 11.
00:33:40.78\00:33:41.62
>>DAVID: Verse 11.
00:33:41.62\00:33:42.52
>>JAMES: Did you
have something to say?
00:33:42.52\00:33:44.39
>>TY: I think it's important
to call attention to verses 8
00:33:44.39\00:33:45.95
and 11 because in verses 8
and 11, that's where you have
00:33:45.95\00:33:49.69
heavenly voices expressing
what they're witnessing in the
00:33:49.69\00:33:54.40
proceedings of this throne room.
00:33:54.40\00:33:58.03
So, I'll do verse 8, you do
verse 11, in verse 8, you have
00:33:58.03\00:34:02.70
these living creatures saying
holy, holy, holy, Lord God
00:34:02.70\00:34:06.71
Almighty who was
and is and is to come.
00:34:06.71\00:34:09.98
>>JEFFREY:
There's that thing we...
00:34:09.98\00:34:10.98
>>TY: Yeah.
00:34:10.98\00:34:11.81
>>JAMES: Was and
is and is to come.
00:34:11.81\00:34:12.98
>>TY: Now, see if you guys
think that there's anything to
00:34:12.98\00:34:16.55
this.
00:34:16.55\00:34:17.72
I really think that, because
it's a throne room setting,
00:34:17.72\00:34:19.29
because it's a
judgement setting, this is not a
00:34:19.29\00:34:22.42
statement that they're
making about God's existence.
00:34:22.42\00:34:25.09
It's not an existence
statement, it's not an
00:34:25.09\00:34:27.40
ontological statement.
00:34:27.40\00:34:28.63
Not saying God...
00:34:28.63\00:34:30.40
>>DAVID: You
lived for a long time.
00:34:30.40\00:34:31.63
>>TY: You lived for a
long time back then and you're
00:34:31.63\00:34:32.77
alive right now and boy,
you're gonna keep on being
00:34:32.77\00:34:34.47
alive.
00:34:34.47\00:34:35.47
It's not an existence statement.
00:34:35.47\00:34:36.91
Yeah, it's, God, this God who
was, with integrity, reigning
00:34:36.91\00:34:46.21
over the universe, who
currently has maintained
00:34:46.21\00:34:49.35
integrity through all
the proceedings of the great
00:34:49.35\00:34:51.29
controversy, his integrity
is intact, his methods, his ways
00:34:51.29\00:34:53.72
are good and just and it will
ultimately be seen that he is
00:34:53.72\00:34:59.43
the one, the only one
worthy to occupy the throne
00:34:59.43\00:35:02.03
henceforth,
forever into the future.
00:35:02.03\00:35:04.53
So, it's a character
evaluation, not an existence
00:35:04.53\00:35:08.34
evaluation.
00:35:08.34\00:35:09.80
>>DAVID: You were holy,
you are holy, and you will
00:35:09.80\00:35:12.81
continue to be holy.
00:35:12.81\00:35:13.68
>>TY: That's right.
00:35:13.68\00:35:14.41
Good, good, good.
00:35:14.41\00:35:15.34
Right, right, right.
00:35:15.34\00:35:16.34
Just, just, just.
00:35:16.34\00:35:17.31
>>DAVID: Integrity.
00:35:17.31\00:35:18.48
>>JEFFREY: In reference to
his activity in the throne, in
00:35:18.48\00:35:19.81
verse 2, so they're just
saying, we've assessed, we've
00:35:19.81\00:35:23.05
observed your
activity in the throne room.
00:35:23.05\00:35:25.69
>>JAMES: We've gotta flesh
this out, this is really good,
00:35:25.69\00:35:27.99
this is really good
because the entire rest of the
00:35:27.99\00:35:31.63
chapters here, the
seals, are confirming that.
00:35:31.63\00:35:35.86
In other words, all of the
info in the universe has seen
00:35:35.86\00:35:37.80
that and now, the Lamb, the
cross is gonna unseal each one
00:35:37.80\00:35:41.90
of those mysteries and
each one of them reveals how God
00:35:41.90\00:35:45.77
deals with sin and how God
deals with opposition and how
00:35:45.77\00:35:48.08
God deals.
00:35:48.08\00:35:49.14
So, the whole rest, this
is setting up for the whole
00:35:49.14\00:35:51.08
unfolding, unsealing, if
you will, of the history of
00:35:51.08\00:35:54.85
humankind, and how God has
dealt with you, so that we can
00:35:54.85\00:35:56.82
see what all the
unfolding of the universe...
00:35:56.82\00:35:58.85
>>TY: Okay, so verse 11,
because back in verse 8, it's
00:35:58.85\00:36:01.69
the four living creatures who
are offering this evaluation,
00:36:01.69\00:36:04.49
this assessment, holy, holy,
holy, was, is, and is to come,
00:36:04.49\00:36:08.30
and then, in verse 10, the
24 elders chime in and they have
00:36:08.30\00:36:11.93
their evaluation, verse 11.
00:36:11.93\00:36:14.17
>>JAMES: Well, no,
take it, Ty, take it.
00:36:14.17\00:36:16.00
>>TY: In verse 11, the 24
elders add their testimony,
00:36:16.00\00:36:20.24
there's
testimony, there's witness.
00:36:20.24\00:36:21.88
There's evaluation going on
and their testimony is verse
00:36:21.88\00:36:25.91
11, you, speaking to
God, now we know who's under
00:36:25.91\00:36:28.22
investigation.
00:36:28.22\00:36:29.72
Now we know who's being
scrutinized, to use your word,
00:36:29.72\00:36:31.85
David.
00:36:31.85\00:36:33.02
you are worthy, oh, Lord,
to receive glory and honor and
00:36:33.02\00:36:36.73
power, to receive it.
00:36:36.73\00:36:38.13
Wait a minute, this is
God, he doesn't have it?
00:36:38.13\00:36:39.59
>>DAVID: You receive
something if it's given to you.
00:36:39.59\00:36:41.86
>>TY: Yeah, yeah.
00:36:41.86\00:36:43.06
So, here, God is voluntarily
making himself subject to our
00:36:43.06\00:36:46.57
evaluation and we, in turn,
are voluntarily giving to him
00:36:46.57\00:36:52.81
the throne that, by all
rights, he should occupy.
00:36:52.81\00:36:55.68
>>JAMES: But we
stopped giving him that glory.
00:36:55.68\00:36:57.25
>>TY: We stopped.
00:36:57.25\00:36:58.21
There was, the throne
that was set was unset.
00:36:58.21\00:37:01.62
>>JAMES: Yes, Satan convinced
us that God was a withholder.
00:37:01.62\00:37:04.49
>>TY: So, you're
worthy, worthy is a character
00:37:04.49\00:37:08.19
evaluation statement.
00:37:08.19\00:37:09.19
Worthy?
00:37:09.19\00:37:10.59
Why does God have
to be deemed worthy?
00:37:10.59\00:37:13.19
Can't he just pull rank?
00:37:13.19\00:37:14.60
Can't he just say, listen,
I don't care if you think I'm
00:37:14.60\00:37:16.80
worthy or not, I'm God,
it's my throne, I'll occupy it,
00:37:16.80\00:37:19.43
thank you very
much, step out of the way.
00:37:19.43\00:37:21.30
But he doesn't
have that attitude.
00:37:21.30\00:37:23.24
He's evaluated to be worthy,
to receive glory and honor and
00:37:23.24\00:37:27.31
power for, or because you
created all things and by your
00:37:27.31\00:37:33.05
will, they exist
and were created.
00:37:33.05\00:37:35.68
So, the first premise
upon which God is worthy is
00:37:35.68\00:37:40.39
creation.
00:37:40.39\00:37:41.79
He's the one who created
all things and that is a premise
00:37:41.79\00:37:46.33
for his worthiness.
00:37:46.33\00:37:47.83
It's interesting, and
we'll come right back after the
00:37:47.83\00:37:50.13
break and we'll see in chapter
5 that the evaluation broadens
00:37:50.13\00:37:55.50
to include, not only were
you worthy because you created,
00:37:55.50\00:37:58.17
you're worthy because, when
your creation fell, you kept
00:37:58.17\00:38:03.61
on loving us
and you redeemed us.
00:38:03.61\00:38:06.75
You're worthy by virtue
of creation and redemption.
00:38:06.75\00:38:10.49
And that's the progression
that unfolds in the two
00:38:10.49\00:38:12.75
chapters.
00:38:12.75\00:38:13.96
>>JAMES: That was the point
I wanted to make in verse 11.
00:38:13.96\00:38:14.92
'Cause it's in verse 11.
00:38:14.92\00:38:16.69
>>TY: Where is it in verse 11?
00:38:16.69\00:38:18.43
>>JAMES: So, thou hast
created all things and for thy
00:38:18.43\00:38:21.70
pleasure they are, or another
version says, they exist.
00:38:21.70\00:38:25.37
>>TY: Yes.
00:38:25.37\00:38:26.00
>>JAMES: They're sustained.
00:38:26.00\00:38:26.74
>>TY: They're sustained by God.
00:38:26.74\00:38:28.10
>>JAMES: Not only did
you create it, but you also
00:38:28.10\00:38:29.10
sustained them.
00:38:29.10\00:38:29.94
>>JEFFREY: By
your will, they exist.
00:38:29.94\00:38:31.11
>>TY: Okay, so we gotta take
a break and then, we'll come
00:38:31.11\00:38:32.21
right back.
00:38:32.21\00:38:33.48
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00:38:47.56\00:38:50.13
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00:38:50.13\00:38:53.33
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[Music]
00:39:29.80\00:39:34.87
[Music]
00:39:34.87\00:39:35.24
>>TY: So, we completed
chapter 4 and it was just
00:39:35.94\00:39:36.74
incredible all the insights
that emerged, and then, we
00:39:37.11\00:39:40.61
just seamlessly move into
chapter 5 with verse 1, and I
00:39:40.61\00:39:45.05
saw in the right hand of
him who sat on the throne, a
00:39:45.05\00:39:49.25
scroll written on the inside
and on the back, sealed with 7
00:39:49.25\00:39:54.29
seals.
00:39:54.29\00:39:55.39
So, the first word of
verse 1 of chapter 5 is and, the
00:39:55.39\00:39:58.93
chapter division is
just for convenience.
00:39:58.93\00:40:02.70
>>DAVID: It's an
uninterrupted vision.
00:40:02.70\00:40:03.87
>>TY: It's an uninterrupted
vision, it's just continuing
00:40:03.87\00:40:05.33
on, because now, what we
have taking place is we have the
00:40:05.33\00:40:09.54
one seated on the throne
and these are visual images, so
00:40:09.54\00:40:13.91
it's helpful to visualize
exactly what's happening here,
00:40:13.91\00:40:17.28
you can picture God on
his throne and he's holding a
00:40:17.28\00:40:21.02
scroll in his hand and
it's sealed with 7 seals.
00:40:21.02\00:40:24.85
It's perfectly sealed,
shut up to any evaluation,
00:40:24.85\00:40:30.86
investigation, it's closed,
and the whole thing about
00:40:30.86\00:40:34.73
chapter 5 is that we're about
to discover that Jesus is the
00:40:34.73\00:40:41.57
one and only individual who,
by certain qualifications, can
00:40:41.57\00:40:48.28
open the book, the scroll
that is in God the Father's hand
00:40:48.28\00:40:53.45
and do something, deal
with that data, deal with that
00:40:53.45\00:40:56.28
information, deal with
whatever is in that book, that
00:40:56.28\00:40:59.65
scroll.
00:40:59.65\00:41:00.86
>>DAVID: So, it's
clearly a mystery.
00:41:00.86\00:41:02.36
I mean, we're encountering
it as John encountered it.
00:41:02.36\00:41:04.86
It's sealed.
00:41:04.86\00:41:05.59
>>TY: Yeah, it's sealed.
00:41:05.59\00:41:06.83
Nobody knows what's in it,
we begin to understand what's in
00:41:06.83\00:41:09.66
it as the picture unfolds.
00:41:09.66\00:41:12.10
>>DAVID: And there's even
a pregnancy within verse 1
00:41:12.10\00:41:14.74
because verse 2, the immediate
thing, when you see something
00:41:14.74\00:41:18.94
that's sealed, is
hey, what's in there?
00:41:18.94\00:41:22.31
Like a package, you know,
if you see a package that's
00:41:22.31\00:41:23.98
wrapped with a bow, you
wonder, I wonder what that is?
00:41:23.98\00:41:25.61
So, here, then I saw a strong
angel repelling with a loud
00:41:25.61\00:41:28.82
voice, who is worthy to
open the scroll and to loose its
00:41:28.82\00:41:30.95
seals?
00:41:30.95\00:41:31.85
It's the natural
thing that would flow.
00:41:31.85\00:41:33.82
Hey, here's a document,
it's perfectly sealed, hey, I
00:41:33.82\00:41:36.96
wonder what's in there?
00:41:36.96\00:41:38.09
>>JEFFREY: And even what's
funny, the strong angel asks
00:41:38.09\00:41:40.13
the question, as if to
say, even a strong angel is not
00:41:40.13\00:41:41.73
capable of opening the seals.
00:41:41.73\00:41:44.17
>>TY: Yeah, exactly.
00:41:44.17\00:41:45.27
>>JAMES: Here's something
that's amazing, too, and I
00:41:45.27\00:41:46.43
think this is really important
and this is pregnant with
00:41:46.43\00:41:50.07
great controversy theme.
00:41:50.07\00:41:53.44
Again, John is born
from the Old Testament.
00:41:53.44\00:41:57.71
You go back to the Old
Testament, where do you find a
00:41:57.71\00:41:59.08
sealed book?
00:41:59.08\00:42:00.32
In Ezekiel chapter 2, you
see this book, oh, son of man,
00:42:00.32\00:42:04.15
hear what I say unto
thee, verse 8, be not rebellious
00:42:04.15\00:42:07.52
like the rebellious house,
open thy mouth and eat that I
00:42:07.52\00:42:10.16
give you.
00:42:10.16\00:42:11.33
And I looked, verse 9 and
behold, a hen was sent unto me
00:42:11.33\00:42:13.96
and lo, a roll of book was
written therein, and he spread
00:42:13.96\00:42:18.50
it before me and it was
written within and without, so
00:42:18.50\00:42:20.87
you've got the roll,
you've got it written within and
00:42:20.87\00:42:22.97
without and then it goes on
to say there, and it was written
00:42:22.97\00:42:25.21
therein lamentations,
and mourning, and woe.
00:42:25.21\00:42:28.84
Okay, according to Ezekiel this
book is filled with lamentations
00:42:28.84\00:42:33.62
and mourning and woe and
that, in relation to us, is the
00:42:33.62\00:42:38.49
mystery of God being love.
00:42:38.49\00:42:41.16
What?
00:42:41.16\00:42:42.59
God is love?
00:42:42.59\00:42:43.06
He's the creator?
00:42:43.06\00:42:43.96
He's the one that created?
00:42:43.96\00:42:45.76
He's the one that
caused everything to exist?
00:42:45.76\00:42:47.30
And it's filled with,
our history is filled with...
00:42:47.30\00:42:50.50
>>DAVID: Bad news.
00:42:50.50\00:42:51.53
>>JAMES: Evil, pain,
suffering, lamentation, and
00:42:51.53\00:42:53.30
woe?
00:42:53.30\00:42:54.07
And no one can
unlock this mystery.
00:42:54.07\00:42:55.64
No one can figure out
how a good God, a loving God,
00:42:55.64\00:42:59.94
created this world full of
evil and pain and suffering.
00:42:59.94\00:43:02.08
No one can figure that out,
no one can unlock that mystery
00:43:02.08\00:43:04.78
but the Lamb.
00:43:04.78\00:43:06.01
But in order for the Lamb
to unlock that mystery, he
00:43:06.01\00:43:08.52
becomes slain.
00:43:08.52\00:43:09.58
See, the cross of Calvary
is gonna unlock for us the
00:43:09.58\00:43:11.95
mystery of evil and pain
and suffering on planet earth.
00:43:11.95\00:43:14.82
>>TY: So, the content of the
scroll is our horrible history
00:43:14.82\00:43:20.83
as human beings.
00:43:20.83\00:43:21.86
Lamentation and woe,
what's the other word?
00:43:21.86\00:43:24.97
>>JAMES: Lamentations
and mourning and woe.
00:43:24.97\00:43:28.60
>>TY: All the heartache of
human history is contained in
00:43:28.60\00:43:30.81
that book.
00:43:30.81\00:43:32.04
>>JAMES: That no one can
comprehend or understand.
00:43:32.04\00:43:33.27
>>DAVID: Which is why verse
3 says, and no one in heaven or
00:43:33.27\00:43:36.01
on the earth or under the
earth, that is to say that
00:43:36.01\00:43:37.88
people that have passed
before this was able to open the
00:43:37.88\00:43:40.68
scroll, or even to look at it.
00:43:40.68\00:43:42.28
>>JAMES: And he just wept.
00:43:42.28\00:43:44.02
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, and his
reaction, I was about to say
00:43:44.02\00:43:45.39
in verse 4, is that he weeps.
00:43:45.39\00:43:46.55
>>TY: John does.
00:43:46.55\00:43:47.49
>>JEFFREY: Yes.
00:43:47.49\00:43:48.69
>>DAVID: Notice the key, the
word worthy is coming up again
00:43:48.69\00:43:51.23
and again here.
00:43:51.23\00:43:52.66
>>JEFFREY: Worthy,
worthy, worthy, worthy, worthy.
00:43:52.66\00:43:54.56
and again here.
00:43:54.56\00:43:54.93
>>JEFFREY: Worthy,
worthy, worthy, worthy, worthy.
00:43:55.63\00:43:56.43
>>DAVID: Verse
5, can I read that?
00:43:56.43\00:43:57.57
>>TY: Yeah.
00:43:57.57\00:43:58.67
>>DAVID: But one of the
elders said to me, do not weep.
00:43:58.67\00:43:59.63
>>JAMES: One of the who?
00:43:59.63\00:44:00.70
>>DAVID: One of the elders.
00:44:00.70\00:44:01.50
>>JAMES: One of the elders.
00:44:01.50\00:44:02.80
>>DAVID: Which would be
fascinating because they
00:44:02.80\00:44:04.91
would've been, whoever this
was, one of the recipients of,
00:44:04.91\00:44:09.41
that's a great point.
00:44:09.41\00:44:11.75
Do not weep, behold, the
lion of the tribe of Judah, the
00:44:11.75\00:44:16.05
root of David has prevailed,
that suggests there's a
00:44:16.05\00:44:19.95
controversy, that
suggests there's overcoming of
00:44:19.95\00:44:22.02
something, to open the
scroll and to loose its 7 seals.
00:44:22.02\00:44:25.09
And I looked, and behold, in
the midst of the throne and of
00:44:25.09\00:44:28.30
the four living creatures
and in the midst of the elders
00:44:28.30\00:44:30.50
stood a Lamb, as though it had
been slain, having 7 heads and
00:44:30.50\00:44:36.27
7 eyes, which are the 7
spirits of God sent out into
00:44:36.27\00:44:38.64
all the earth.
00:44:38.64\00:44:39.81
Now, read verse 7, then, he
came and took the scroll out
00:44:39.81\00:44:42.21
of the right hand of
him who sat on the throne.
00:44:42.21\00:44:43.58
>>JAMES: That's
the answer right there.
00:44:43.58\00:44:44.48
That is the answer
to the great dilemma.
00:44:44.48\00:44:47.22
>>DAVID: I love the
fact that it's an elder.
00:44:47.22\00:44:48.92
How have I not
noticed that before?
00:44:48.92\00:44:50.15
>>TY: It's beautiful.
00:44:50.15\00:44:51.52
>>DAVID: That's a great point.
00:44:51.52\00:44:52.79
>>TY: So, there's a
progression here from verse 2
00:44:52.79\00:44:56.36
through verse 6 that, in my
bible, I circled 3 words and
00:44:56.36\00:45:00.53
drew a line between them just
to remind me the question of
00:45:00.53\00:45:03.63
worthiness in verse 2,
prevailing in verse 5, and the
00:45:03.63\00:45:09.14
method of prevailing in verse 6.
00:45:09.14\00:45:13.14
So, Jesus is able to unravel,
open, look upon, process, and
00:45:13.14\00:45:23.59
deal with the human problem.
00:45:23.59\00:45:26.72
The sin problem.
00:45:26.72\00:45:28.09
The history of the human race.
00:45:28.09\00:45:29.79
And he's able to do that
by virtue of the fact that he
00:45:29.79\00:45:34.83
condescended to enter into
solidarity with the human race
00:45:34.83\00:45:39.47
through the incarnation,
went to the cross, and died in a
00:45:39.47\00:45:43.71
self-sacrificing act of
love for the human race.
00:45:43.71\00:45:49.41
This is what makes him
worthy to open the book.
00:45:49.41\00:45:52.78
But he's not just opening
the book and reading it, he's
00:45:52.78\00:45:56.92
opening the book of human
woe and lamentation and all the
00:45:56.92\00:46:01.29
horrors of our history to
resolve the great controversy.
00:46:01.29\00:46:05.13
He's not just kicking back
on the veranda, reading the book
00:46:05.13\00:46:08.03
for entertainment, he's
cracking the code of the human
00:46:08.03\00:46:13.37
condition and bringing resolve.
00:46:13.37\00:46:16.67
>>JEFFREY: That
question that we pose, how long?
00:46:16.67\00:46:18.77
How long?
00:46:18.77\00:46:19.84
So, he's actively
working to answer that question.
00:46:19.84\00:46:22.48
>>JAMES: Look at this, guys,
okay, in this book, if this
00:46:22.48\00:46:25.48
scroll represents the pain
and suffering of evil of this
00:46:25.48\00:46:28.72
world that no man can deal
with, just read this verse,
00:46:28.72\00:46:31.49
then.
00:46:31.49\00:46:32.55
Verse 7, and he came
and he took the book.
00:46:32.55\00:46:37.06
Jesus Christ took all the
pain, all the suffering, all
00:46:37.06\00:46:40.23
the evil, from God, he
received it from God, the
00:46:40.23\00:46:43.77
Father gave to Jesus, put
upon Jesus all the sin, pain,
00:46:43.77\00:46:48.20
suffering, all the evil of
this world was taken by Jesus.
00:46:48.20\00:46:52.71
He took it upon himself.
00:46:52.71\00:46:53.98
I mean, this is just a
beautiful picture of the
00:46:53.98\00:46:55.78
cross.
00:46:55.78\00:46:56.54
He took it upon himself.
00:46:56.54\00:46:57.85
And in doing that, he has
taken the book and opened the
00:46:57.85\00:47:02.72
book and now we see it all,
we see that God is love, we see
00:47:02.72\00:47:05.72
how God deals with sin and
suffering, we see the whole
00:47:05.72\00:47:08.32
picture now, all
comes clear to us.
00:47:08.32\00:47:10.19
This mystery that
we couldn't comprehend.
00:47:10.19\00:47:11.73
How can you ever explain
to anyone sin, suffering, and
00:47:11.73\00:47:15.00
evil?
00:47:15.00\00:47:16.03
How can you explain
that in the context of God?
00:47:16.03\00:47:17.87
There's a lot of different
religions that have different
00:47:17.87\00:47:20.07
methods of trying to figure
this out in relation to God's
00:47:20.07\00:47:22.44
sovereignty, this, that,
and the other, but there's only
00:47:22.44\00:47:24.31
one explanation.
00:47:24.31\00:47:25.14
>>TY: The cross.
00:47:25.14\00:47:26.04
>>JAMES: The cross.
00:47:26.04\00:47:27.14
>>TY: The cross is the
mystery that explains all other
00:47:27.14\00:47:28.21
mysteries, yeah.
00:47:28.21\00:47:29.94
>>DAVID: This is where God,
in Christ, bears the evil of the
00:47:29.94\00:47:33.92
world, bears it.
00:47:33.92\00:47:34.98
>>JAMES: And therefore,
can pull back the seals, the
00:47:34.98\00:47:38.15
mysteries of all this evil and
suffering and pain and reveal
00:47:38.15\00:47:40.79
it to us.
00:47:40.79\00:47:41.92
>>DAVID: You know, I found
myself saying something in a
00:47:41.92\00:47:43.49
sermon I preached just this
last week, when I was at the
00:47:43.49\00:47:45.59
Wyoming camp meeting, that,
I wanna bounce this off of you
00:47:45.59\00:47:48.83
guys because it sounds
maybe just a little wrong, or a
00:47:48.83\00:47:53.27
little blasphemous,
but I think it's good.
00:47:53.27\00:47:55.90
And that is this idea, so you
have the three members of the
00:47:55.90\00:47:57.97
godhead, you have the Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit, right,
00:47:57.97\00:48:00.48
we don't have time to
develop that here, but scripture
00:48:00.48\00:48:01.78
describes God as a plurality.
00:48:01.78\00:48:05.75
You know, God the Father,
who we just saw seated on the
00:48:05.75\00:48:07.85
throne, that's an easy
one, and then you have the Lamb
00:48:07.85\00:48:10.25
that comes in and then the
Spirit is also here, but you
00:48:10.25\00:48:12.82
know,
definitively in other places.
00:48:12.82\00:48:14.46
So, anyway, this idea here
that the only one of the three
00:48:14.46\00:48:18.33
members of the godhead, tell
me if you like this or if you
00:48:18.33\00:48:21.80
resonate with it, that would
know experientially what it is
00:48:21.80\00:48:27.07
to be a human being, and
then, furthermore, what it is to
00:48:27.07\00:48:30.74
die, to bear the weight of the
sin of the world, God clearly,
00:48:30.74\00:48:34.88
and it's not to say the
Father didn't suffer, the Spirit
00:48:34.88\00:48:37.08
didn't suffer, in the plan
of salvation, but to say, the
00:48:37.08\00:48:39.61
Father did not become a man.
00:48:39.61\00:48:42.62
>>TY: Nor did the Spirit.
00:48:42.62\00:48:43.79
>>DAVID: Nor did the Spirit.
00:48:43.79\00:48:45.15
Jesus becomes a man,
so in some sense, in some
00:48:45.15\00:48:48.39
significant sense, he
is uniquely qualified to
00:48:48.39\00:48:51.26
represent God to humanity,
because he is God, and then,
00:48:51.26\00:48:55.30
he is conversely, or
similarly, qualified to
00:48:55.30\00:48:58.30
represent humanity to God.
00:48:58.30\00:49:01.24
>>JEFFREY: Because
he's equally human.
00:49:01.24\00:49:03.14
>>DAVID: Because
he's a human being.
00:49:03.14\00:49:03.87
>>TY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:49:03.87\00:49:05.21
>>DAVID: To me, I just
think this is, I think this is
00:49:05.21\00:49:06.51
amazing, astonishing.
00:49:06.51\00:49:08.94
He is the only one
worthy because he is God and he
00:49:08.94\00:49:14.62
became a man and he bore,
as you said, the weight of the
00:49:14.62\00:49:19.32
scroll, the woe, the
mourning, the lamentation.
00:49:19.32\00:49:23.76
He's the Lamb slain.
00:49:23.76\00:49:26.56
>>TY: Yeah, you're referring
to more than the cross, you're
00:49:26.56\00:49:30.87
referring as well
as to the incarnation.
00:49:30.87\00:49:34.54
>>DAVID: The whole incarnation.
00:49:34.54\00:49:35.77
>>TY: And that's
in the text, David.
00:49:35.77\00:49:37.47
>>DAVID: Please.
00:49:37.47\00:49:38.64
>>TY: In the text, it says,
let me find it here, that he
00:49:38.64\00:49:43.18
is, verse 5, the lion of
the tribe of Judah, the root of
00:49:43.18\00:49:47.22
David, why that language?
00:49:47.22\00:49:48.88
>>DAVID: 'Cause
he's a human being.
00:49:48.88\00:49:49.95
>>TY: Yeah.
00:49:49.95\00:49:51.09
That language is to tell
us, he came through the human
00:49:51.09\00:49:53.46
lineage of Israel,
it's a lineage statement.
00:49:53.46\00:49:56.29
>>JEFFREY: He's a
member of the human family.
00:49:56.29\00:49:57.79
>>TY: He's a
member of the human race.
00:49:57.79\00:49:58.99
>>DAVID: First verse of the
New Testament, the book of the
00:49:58.99\00:50:00.73
genealogy of Jesus Christ,
the son of David, the son of
00:50:00.73\00:50:03.06
Abraham.
00:50:03.06\00:50:04.13
You cannot make sense of
the story of Jesus without
00:50:04.13\00:50:06.43
understanding the Old
Testament story, the story of
00:50:06.43\00:50:08.94
Abraham, the story of
Moses, the Old Testament story.
00:50:08.94\00:50:10.77
Jesus comes
through that lineage.
00:50:10.77\00:50:12.94
>>JEFFREY: So, the Lord of
history, basically, came into
00:50:12.94\00:50:15.78
history.
00:50:15.78\00:50:17.38
Real time.
00:50:17.38\00:50:18.31
>>TY: He didn't just
travel geographically.
00:50:18.31\00:50:20.15
>>DAVID: Like, hey,
I gotta go down there.
00:50:20.15\00:50:21.88
>>TY: Yeah, I
gotta go down there.
00:50:21.88\00:50:23.32
He travelled in being.
00:50:23.32\00:50:26.52
He became what he
previously was not.
00:50:26.52\00:50:31.03
He became a human being
and came through human lineage.
00:50:31.03\00:50:35.86
That's remarkable.
00:50:35.86\00:50:37.80
If there's anything
worth believing, that's worth
00:50:37.80\00:50:41.20
believing.
00:50:41.20\00:50:42.50
>>JAMES: And apparently,
this is really important to
00:50:42.50\00:50:44.81
Revelation 5.
00:50:44.81\00:50:46.51
Because in Revelation 5, it
defines Christ as the lion of
00:50:46.51\00:50:49.94
the tribe of Judah, the root
of David, which outlines his
00:50:49.94\00:50:52.51
humanity, but then, in verses
11, all the way through the
00:50:52.51\00:50:55.78
rest of the chapter, verse
14, my eyes are getting bad, it
00:50:55.78\00:51:00.32
identifies the Lamb as
being worthy of worship.
00:51:00.32\00:51:04.89
In heaven and earth
and under the earth.
00:51:04.89\00:51:06.23
Everyone's worshipping the Lamb.
00:51:06.23\00:51:07.96
Well, only God, only God
receives worship from all of
00:51:07.96\00:51:11.20
creation.
00:51:11.20\00:51:12.37
So, here in this chapter,
what David said is basically a
00:51:12.37\00:51:16.71
summation of
Revelation chapter 5.
00:51:16.71\00:51:19.31
In Revelation chapter 5,
there's a very important point
00:51:19.31\00:51:21.38
that's being made here.
00:51:21.38\00:51:22.54
Jesus Christ becomes the
lion of the tribe of Judah, the
00:51:22.54\00:51:24.75
root of David, he's a
human, but he's also still God.
00:51:24.75\00:51:27.15
He's also worthy of
the worship of all of his
00:51:27.15\00:51:30.39
creation, heaven,
earth, and under the earth.
00:51:30.39\00:51:32.25
>>JEFFREY: As I'm listening
to this, I'm thinking, man, when
00:51:32.25\00:51:34.72
people normally think of
Revelation, they do not think
00:51:34.72\00:51:36.89
about what just went on in the
last 5 minutes, you know, the
00:51:36.89\00:51:39.59
content matter is, it's
dripping with gospel, isn't
00:51:39.59\00:51:45.93
it?
00:51:45.93\00:51:46.80
Dripping with redemption.
00:51:46.80\00:51:48.57
>>JAMES: In fact, what we
just discovered is, is that the
00:51:48.57\00:51:51.11
lamb, which is a symbol of the
cross, it's introduced here in
00:51:51.11\00:51:56.01
Revelation chapter 5, right?
00:51:56.01\00:51:58.01
The Lamb symbol is introduced.
00:51:58.01\00:51:59.35
And the way it's
introduced is the Lamb slain.
00:51:59.35\00:52:01.08
So, it's a symbol of Calvary.
00:52:01.08\00:52:02.25
So, Calvary now is, whenever
you read Lamb, which is how
00:52:02.25\00:52:06.35
many times is the word
Lamb used in the book of
00:52:06.35\00:52:08.09
Revelation? 
>>DAVID: Like 28, 29
00:52:08.09\00:52:09.09
Yeah.
00:52:09.09\00:52:09.82
>>DAVID: Again and again.
00:52:09.82\00:52:11.06
>>JAMES: So, whenever you read
that word Lamb in Revelation,
00:52:11.06\00:52:12.26
yeah, again and again, what
you get in there is the cross,
00:52:12.26\00:52:15.36
the cross, the cross, the cross.
00:52:15.36\00:52:17.00
>>JEFFREY: So, it's just
overwhelmingly crowded with
00:52:17.00\00:52:19.77
the cross.
00:52:19.77\00:52:20.47
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:52:20.47\00:52:21.57
>>DAVID: Ty, what you
just said, if there's something
00:52:21.57\00:52:23.87
worth believing,
this is it, I love that.
00:52:23.87\00:52:26.01
That's great.
00:52:26.01\00:52:26.47
I wrote that down.
00:52:26.47\00:52:27.64
You know, I have said before,
on my own, preaching, that
00:52:27.64\00:52:29.44
history is filled with stories
of men who thought they could
00:52:29.44\00:52:33.35
become God.
00:52:33.35\00:52:35.35
But with only one story of the
God who condescended to become
00:52:35.35\00:52:39.82
a man.
00:52:39.82\00:52:40.92
And this takes us back
to former lessons that we've
00:52:40.92\00:52:43.96
already had and that is that
God becomes a man, according
00:52:43.96\00:52:46.23
to the New Testament, I'm
thinking particularly of the
00:52:46.23\00:52:47.96
book of Hebrews for two
reasons, at least two reasons.
00:52:47.96\00:52:49.40
Well, three I can think of.
00:52:49.40\00:52:51.40
For the purpose of empathy,
sympathy, identification.
00:52:51.40\00:52:54.40
For the purpose of
identification to the point of
00:52:54.40\00:52:57.11
death, which is a universal
part of the human experience,
00:52:57.11\00:52:59.94
and so that he
could be a priest.
00:52:59.94\00:53:02.21
I mean, if God is like
that, if that is true, which I
00:53:02.21\00:53:07.28
believe it is, I'm persuaded
that it is true, this is the
00:53:07.28\00:53:12.42
best conceivable good news.
00:53:12.42\00:53:15.06
>>TY: You can't imagine, if
somebody said to you, hey, the
00:53:15.06\00:53:18.99
human race is messed up with
lamentations and woes and just
00:53:18.99\00:53:22.73
crying and weeping, you
have free reign, create the best
00:53:22.73\00:53:29.17
possible picture of reality
and resolve that you could
00:53:29.17\00:53:33.74
come up with in
your imagination.
00:53:33.74\00:53:35.74
This is what you would come
up with, you would say, well, if
00:53:35.74\00:53:37.75
I had to come up with the
best solution, I wouldn't think
00:53:37.75\00:53:43.62
that the best
solution would be a dictator.
00:53:43.62\00:53:46.19
I don't think the best
solution would be a tyrant.
00:53:46.19\00:53:48.69
I think the best solution
would be humility and love and
00:53:48.69\00:53:52.43
sacrifice.
00:53:52.43\00:53:53.63
If there's anything that could
break our hearts and win us
00:53:53.63\00:53:56.93
back, it would be that.
00:53:56.93\00:54:00.27
>>JEFFREY: You know
what really moves me?
00:54:00.27\00:54:02.70
One thing here that really
moves me is verse 12, that
00:54:02.70\00:54:06.34
after the Lamb is presented,
the only one worthy to open
00:54:06.34\00:54:09.04
such and such, in verse
12, there's a loud voice, and
00:54:09.04\00:54:12.11
then, there's praise, and
it says, worthy is the Lamb who
00:54:12.11\00:54:16.15
was slain to receive,
and then, it gives us a list.
00:54:16.15\00:54:19.35
To receive power,
riches, wisdom, strength, honor,
00:54:19.35\00:54:22.99
glory, and blessing, and
then, as I read that, I thought,
00:54:22.99\00:54:25.83
wait, nothing that is listed
there is anything that God did
00:54:25.83\00:54:30.80
not previously, already possess.
00:54:30.80\00:54:32.90
So, it's kinda awesome, in
our case, in the redeemed case,
00:54:32.90\00:54:38.17
that which we receive, we
did not previously possess.
00:54:38.17\00:54:41.41
So, there's a
change that takes place.
00:54:41.41\00:54:43.04
But with God, he's subjecting
himself to this whole process
00:54:43.04\00:54:47.82
and in the end, at the end
of the day, at the end of the
00:54:47.82\00:54:50.25
story, what has he gained?
00:54:50.25\00:54:52.65
>>JAMES: What he already had.
00:54:52.65\00:54:53.72
>>JEFFREY: Squat.
00:54:53.72\00:54:54.52
[Laughter]
00:54:54.52\00:54:56.09
All he gets in the end.
00:54:56.09\00:54:57.66
>>JAMES: I wouldn't have said
it that way, Jeffrey, you are
00:54:57.66\00:54:58.69
one...
00:54:58.69\00:54:59.83
>>JEFFREY: No, I'm serious,
that's what the text says,
00:54:59.83\00:55:01.63
it's in the Greek, right?
00:55:01.63\00:55:02.80
>>JAMES: I don't find that
word in the bible, that's all.
00:55:02.80\00:55:04.87
>>JEFFREY: Listen to me.
00:55:04.87\00:55:05.83
At the end, he gets
that which he already had.
00:55:05.83\00:55:07.97
In other words, the
whole process is God just
00:55:07.97\00:55:10.44
vindicating the worthiness
of being and having what he has
00:55:10.44\00:55:15.74
always been and had.
00:55:15.74\00:55:17.11
>>JAMES: And the sad thing
is, there are some people who
00:55:17.11\00:55:18.68
won't give him that.
00:55:18.68\00:55:19.91
He's gonna reveal to everyone
that this is really all that I
00:55:19.91\00:55:23.55
actually am.
00:55:23.55\00:55:24.39
>>JEFFREY: And
that, to me, is like...
00:55:24.39\00:55:25.82
>>TY: And it's not, when you
say that the whole process is
00:55:25.82\00:55:28.42
to vindicate his worthiness,
we need to clarify that we're
00:55:28.42\00:55:33.86
not here describing a God
who's on an ego trip, he's not
00:55:33.86\00:55:36.67
a narcissist, he's not saying,
listen, the whole point here
00:55:36.67\00:55:39.40
is for you, I want you to
stand still and praise me for
00:55:39.40\00:55:42.34
eternity because I need that.
00:55:42.34\00:55:45.17
It's not that kind of thing.
00:55:45.17\00:55:47.11
>>JEFFREY: Not that at all.
00:55:47.11\00:55:48.31
>>TY: What it is is that God
is worthy to occupy the throne
00:55:48.31\00:55:52.11
by virtue of creation and
redemption and that pans out
00:55:52.11\00:55:57.12
to what's best for the universe.
00:55:57.12\00:55:58.55
>>DAVID: They voluntarily, yes.
00:55:58.55\00:56:00.69
>>TY: That's best for us.
00:56:00.69\00:56:03.02
Because he's the source of
love and life and light and
00:56:03.02\00:56:08.70
everything good and that's
the amazing thing about the God
00:56:08.70\00:56:12.00
that we encounter in
scripture, he rules only on
00:56:12.00\00:56:15.50
the basis of his worthiness,
which solicits our praise and
00:56:15.50\00:56:22.61
the glory that we give
him for all eternity future.
00:56:22.61\00:56:25.08
[Music]
00:56:25.08\00:56:28.15
[Music]
00:56:28.15\00:56:28.18