Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000038A
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00:00 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:24 learned a lot just through the process of conversing about 00:27 these hard questions, but here we are, coming to almost the 00:31 end, we're on discussion number 12, and we're about to tackle 00:35 something that is genuinely a hard question. 00:39 We're going to delve into 00:42 -- >>JEFFREY: Well, all of them have been hard questions. 00:44 >>DAVID: I was like, and those other ones were those easier 00:47 ones. 00:49 >>TY: Modification, this one's harder than all the others? 00:51 >>JAMES: No. 00:52 >>TY: No, it's not. 00:52 >>DAVID: This is a hard question. 00:54 >>TY: This is a hard question, okay, what is the question? 00:55 The question is this, will God really burn people in hell for 01:01 eternity? 01:02 Now, that's relevant from 2 angles at very least. 01:07 One is, there's a bunch of people in the world who believe 01:09 it and on the other hand, there's a lot of people in the 01:12 world who don't believe it and, consequently, don't believe in 01:16 God at all because of that doctrine. 01:18 >>JEFFREY: Wouldn't you even say that, at least in the Christian 01:21 world, the majority of Christianity probably would lean 01:25 towards that direction. 01:26 >>DAVID: No probably, that's... 01:30 >>JAMES: Fact. 01:31 >>JEFFREY: So, it's clearly a relevant topic. 01:32 >>TY: Since you brought up from that angle, you know, there's 01:36 about 1.2 billion Catholics, probably about a billion 01:39 Protestants and pretty much all of those professed Christian 01:48 believers subscribe to the doctrine of eternal torment. 01:51 Then, if you take in also the 1 point whatever billion Muslims, 01:56 they also believe in eternal torment, you've got basically 02:00 half the human race who believes that God will torture people for 02:05 eternity. 02:06 >>DAVID: Or, maybe to soften it very slightly, that God would 02:08 allow them to be tortured for eternity. 02:11 In other words, God may not be the active agent in it, but he's 02:14 at least, he acquiesces to it, he's complicit. 02:17 He's, hey, look, that's a choice you've made and I'm going to 02:20 allow it to continue to happen. 02:22 In other words, he's not, maybe actively. 02:23 >>JEFFREY: And a percentage of the people who remain from the 02:27 percentage you described are comprised by people, many, who 02:32 have reacted to that and decided that, nah, not into it, not into 02:36 religion. 02:37 >>TY: Well, could we begin by just talking about 02:40 -- >>DAVID: Well, can I say something at the outset? 02:41 >>TY: Sure. 02:42 >>DAVID: This is the most hideous conceivable picture of 02:45 God. 02:45 It's impossibly difficult. 02:49 It's just impossible to reconcile that picture with God, 02:53 a God that would do that, would be capable of that, that would 02:55 take pleasure in that, with the God that we've been exploring in 02:58 the first 11 conversations. 03:00 So, I just wanna put all my cards on the table, right up 03:02 front. 03:03 I was just thinking, I think we're good. 03:05 >>TY: So, you don't believe in hell? 03:08 >>DAVID: I don't believe, I thought the specific question 03:12 was, will God burn or will allow, or, what was the 03:16 question? 03:17 >>TY: Will God really burn people forever in hell? 03:18 >>DAVID: Yeah, I think that's an easily answered question. 03:21 >>TY: What's the answer? 03:22 >>DAVID: No. 03:23 >>TY: No. 03:24 Let us close with prayer. 03:25 Or can we explore 03:27 -- >>JEFFREY: But he would still affirm, to answer your question, 03:29 he would still affirm the reality of hell. 03:31 >>DAVID: Of what scripture teaches about hell, of what it 03:34 is. 03:35 >>TY: So, we'll get to what scripture teaches, but maybe 03:37 it'll be good to begin by just talking a little bit about the 03:40 idea of torture. 03:42 >>JAMES: Well, I wanted to just touch on what David said with a 03:44 story and illustration. 03:45 You said that this is probably the most despicable 03:48 representation of God that you could find in Christianity, 03:52 let's say. 03:53 >>DAVID: In the world, I can't imagine something worse. 03:55 >>JAMES: I was travelling down south in what we understand to 03:58 be the bible belt and the reason it's called the bible belt is 04:01 because this is where the majority of Christians in the 04:04 United States reside. 04:05 They live in this part of the United States, they call it the 04:08 belt because it's just one state after another after another with 04:10 majority of people that are just Christians. 04:13 And I was looking for a radio station because I was travelling 04:17 for a few hours in a car and it's not hard to find 04:19 -- >>DAVID: Christian radio stations. 04:20 >>JAMES: --in the bible belt. 04:21 >>DAVID: Every single time you click it, it's like another, 04:23 another, another one, another. 04:24 >>JAMES: So, it wasn't an issue of finding one, it was an issue 04:25 simply of finding one that was interesting. 04:28 And I came upon this one that was teaching this idea of hell 04:33 and it was a call-in station. 04:35 And in the context of listening, and the reason I was listening 04:38 was because I was just trying to understand why people would 04:42 teach this or believe this. 04:43 I knew that I was raised in a church, I was raised Catholic, 04:47 so I was raised in a church that taught and believed this, but 04:49 once I began to study the bible, it was just obvious to me from 04:53 biblical understanding and teaching that no, this isn't, 04:56 there's a few texts that we need to understand, but this isn't 04:58 the basic general picture. 05:00 So, as I'm listening, I'm learning something that would 05:05 take this one step further and that's why I wanted to bring up 05:07 this illustration, I would say we take it one step further and 05:10 that is that these two gentlemen who were running this talk show 05:13 also believed in 05:15 -- >>DAVID: Pre-destination. 05:17 >>JAMES: Yes. 05:18 Calvinism. 05:19 They believed that God had chosen certain people to be 05:22 saved and certain people to be lost and there was nothing that 05:25 anyone can do about that, therefore, think about this, God 05:29 and his foreknowledge has chosen certain people for, their only 05:33 purpose in life is to burn eternally in hell. 05:38 And I just turned that radio off, I didn't even look for 05:40 another station, I just turned that radio off, tears came to my 05:42 eyes and I just started thinking, there are people in 05:46 this world that are being taught this and believing, and the 05:50 reason why I say this is because people are calling in and one 05:53 person called in trying to say, well, wait a minute, and they 05:56 just shut them down, you know how they do that sometimes, they 05:58 shut them down, and I thought, wow, there are people in this 06:01 world and that is their picture of God, that's the picture 06:03 they're receiving from God. 06:05 >>DAVID: And not only is that tear-inducing and anger-inducing 06:09 and confusion inducing, but then, to call that part of the 06:13 good news, I'm sorry, I missed the good news part. 06:18 Okay, maybe the good news is that you don't have to go there, 06:21 okay, that's the good news, but you have to go spend eternity 06:25 with a God who would superintend that process, who would think 06:29 that that's, both of those are equally unappealing to me. 06:33 >>JEFFREY: That's a good point. 06:34 >>TY: And let's just put it out there straight, the fact is, 06:38 you're spending eternity with God in eternal bliss and 06:44 paradise and there are people who, in this life, you have 06:51 known that aren't there, so you have to somehow balance the idea 06:58 in your mind forever and ever that somewhere, in the universe, 07:01 wherever it is, somewhere, people I've known, 07:05 right now, are writhing 07:06 in the agony of the flames as I'm partaking of fruit from the 07:11 tree of life, they're surfacing again in the flames. 07:15 >>DAVID: It's so patently absurd. 07:20 And I'm not saying there are not some texts, as you said, James, 07:22 that we have to wrestle through, and we'll do that, but the more 07:25 that this comes to light and the more you think about it, of 07:29 course, the mind can't comprehend eternity, the mind 07:31 can't comprehend this depth of torture, the pain that would be, 07:36 I mean, but in as much as we can comprehend it, the absurdity of 07:40 it is evident, in my opinion. 07:43 I just 07:44 -- >>JEFFREY: We should probably mention as well that in recent 07:45 years, even within mainstream Christianity where this is 07:50 pretty much a foundational teaching. 07:52 >>DAVID: There's been a kickback against it. 07:54 >>JEFFREY: Well, there's been specific key players, key 07:58 leaders, key preachers that have said, wait a second, wait a 08:01 second, the more I think about this, the less I can reconcile 08:04 it with the life and teachings of Jesus. 08:08 >>DAVID: And not just the more they think about it, but the 08:09 more they go to the text. 08:10 They go to the text and they say, wait a minute, there's 08:12 other ways, better ways to understand these texts and the 08:17 thing that's the most fascinating is not that the, you 08:20 know, the, what's, EW Fudge and Rob Bell and NT Wright and Clark 08:26 Pinnock, these are some of the names, Gregory Boyd, John Stock. 08:29 It's not just they are these well-known, influential, 08:33 evangelical theologians and preachers that are saying, hey, 08:37 let's reconsider that, let's just hold that up to the 08:41 scrutiny of scriptural investigation. 08:43 To me, the most fascinating part is the pushback against them is 08:47 that, oh, you're denying scripture, you're denying the 08:49 truth, you're soft selling the text, and it's like, people 08:52 don't want to give this up. 08:55 They 08:55 -- >>TY: Why? 08:56 What's behind that? 08:57 What's the psychology behind actually wanting for there to be 09:04 a doctrine of eternal torment that is sustained, why would you 09:07 want to believe that? 09:08 >>DAVID: I can't imagine that. 09:10 >>JAMES: I think part of it goes back to, I've studied this out, 09:12 part of it goes back to missing the principle that we've been 09:15 talking about and establishing as a foundation to our programs 09:19 all through the series and that is love. 09:22 If you miss that principle of love motivation, then there has 09:25 to be another motivation and there are a lot of churches and 09:28 a lot of people that I've talked to, spoken to, especially 09:32 pastors, that would say, in response to this, they would 09:35 say, well, we can't teach that, we can't teach what the bible 09:39 teaches, we can't teach what you're saying and understand it 09:43 the way you're understanding it, that would remove the motivation 09:48 that people have, people would not be motivated to stay out of 09:52 hell if we somehow change it to make it sound like, it's just, 09:57 it's a place but it doesn't last forever, it doesn't burn 10:00 forever. 10:01 It is a punishment, but it's not eternal. 10:03 That would really, we'd lose a lot of people, we'd lose a lot 10:07 of members. 10:08 >>TY: I guess what you're saying is without the factor of fear, 10:11 you would have to have such a robust view of the gospel that 10:16 it would serve as a motivation for continuing to love and serve 10:22 God even without that motive of fear, of eternal torment. 10:27 So, you'd have to have a view of the gospel that would completely 10:32 supplant that fear motive. 10:34 >>JAMES: Absolutely. 10:35 >>DAVID: How do you answer that question, Ty? 10:37 >>TY: Which one? 10:38 >>DAVID: Well, the one about what would be the psychological 10:40 motive behind that? 10:42 Why would you wanna keep that? 10:44 >>TY: Yeah, I think that James got at it and that is that if 10:49 we're not motivated by love, you have to be motivated by 10:53 something, and we all know that we have guilt upon our 10:59 conscience, we're sinners, we're fallen, and so, to face 11:05 ourselves off and others with the threat of eternal torment is 11:09 a pretty strong motivation to keep myself in line. 11:13 So, I think that might be what's going on. 11:16 I also think, and we need to be very careful here, there are a 11:20 lot of people who subscribe to the doctrine of eternal torment, 11:26 and they do genuinely love the Lord, but they're not thinking 11:31 about it on a deep, theological level. 11:35 I've met a lot of believers who just assumed that it's true 11:39 because they were raised to believe that it's true, but they 11:41 haven't thought of it very much and there are all kinds of 11:43 churches that simply don't preach it and it's just in the 11:47 background. 11:48 It's a traditional doctrine and they assume that it must be 11:51 right, but they don't wanna preach it, they don't wanna talk 11:53 about it, they don't wanna deal with it because it is, it is 11:58 pretty glaringly uncomfortable, so we don't want to suggest that 12:04 anybody who believes that that doctrine is true does not love 12:08 the Lord. 12:09 That's just not-- 12:10 >>JEFFREY: But we're saying that their love for the Lord is 12:13 incompatible with their belief with this. 12:15 >>TY: So, they do love the Lord. 12:17 >>JEFFREY: Absolutely, it's just that there are certain beliefs 12:19 that are incompatible and we perhaps haven't made the 12:23 connection, but it doesn't take away from the fact that we 12:25 sincerely love the Lord. 12:26 >>DAVID: And I just wanna add to that, that while we can 12:29 vigorously defend the authenticity and sincerity of 12:35 their commitment to Jesus and we would do that, we wouldn't even 12:37 think to undermine, not a Catholic, not a Presbyterian, 12:41 not a Methodist, their sincerity, their commitment to 12:45 God. 12:47 But with equal vigor, we have to insist on what the text actually 12:50 says, and we can insist on the reality of the absurdity of 12:55 trying to merge these two in-- 13:01 >>TY: Congruent. 13:02 >>DAVID: Incongruent, incompatible, antithetical 13:04 ideas. 13:05 >>TY: Right. 13:06 >>DAVID: With your guys' permission in this conversation, 13:07 perhaps more than any other conversation that we've had, we 13:11 just, I wanna just throw biblical text at this. 13:14 I just wanna like, let's just, not that we're gonna in some 13:18 definitive sense solve this controversy. 13:20 But, for those people that have the privilege or the opportunity 13:23 to see this conversation, let's just make it clear. 13:27 By the grace of God. 13:29 >>TY: Yeah, so, first of all, what about, let's just lay down 13:32 a bible verse that we regard as foundational to all biblical 13:36 doctrine. 13:37 1 John chapter 4, verse 8, God is love. 13:40 So, once that scriptural outlook on God's character is on the 13:45 table, then try to couple that with God sayin, I love you, God 13:51 is love and I love you, but if you don't love me back, I will 13:55 subject you, either by permitting it to happen and 13:58 sustaining the system by which it will be perpetuated forever, 14:03 or by inflicting it upon you. 14:05 I love you, but if you don't love me back, I will subject you 14:09 to torture for eternity. 14:11 That should produce some intellectual dissonance. 14:15 >>JEFFREY: There's actually a video on YouTube that mocks that 14:18 where the guy is reading off and he's reading about all of the 14:20 verses in the bible about how God loves us and he cares for us 14:24 and all of this, and then he says, no excuse me, he's reading 14:27 verses about, you know, judgement and so forth and he's 14:31 rehearsing the Christian belief that God will torture people in 14:34 hell, and then he says what you said, and then he says, and I 14:37 love you. 14:38 >>DAVID: PS, I love you. 14:40 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, and the audience just erupts in laughter 14:42 and he's saying, what is this? 14:43 >>JAMES: The second verse I would like us to look at in 14:46 relation to this 1 John 4:8 is John 3:16. 14:49 These are really powerful verses, both of these are really 14:51 good verses, so 1 John 4:8, God is love, second verse, John 14:56 3:16, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten 15:00 son that whosoever believes in him should not... 15:03 >>DAVID: Perish. 15:03 >>JAMES: Perish. 15:05 Not, it doesn't say, and I like this, when we read the bible, we 15:08 need to also think about what it doesn't say, what it does say 15:11 and what it doesn't say. 15:12 What it does say is that those who don't believe are going to 15:14 perish, what it doesn't say is that those who don't believe are 15:17 gonna be tortured by God for all eternity in a place called hell. 15:21 It doesn't say that in the text. 15:22 So, I like that because that is a God is love verse, that is a 15:27 God loves the world verse and it's also helping us to 15:30 understand that there is a consequence, there is a 15:34 legitimate consequence to not believing, but that consequence 15:37 has been, I think, exaggerated. 15:39 >>JEFFREY: I think there's more mileage in that verse. 15:44 I've always read that verse, everything you just said, even 15:49 more so, the text, it's not merely what the text doesn't 15:53 say, it's what the text does say, which you were saying the 15:57 same thing, just in my own different way, the text 16:01 explicitly denies, like you were saying, that those who are lost 16:07 have their lives perpetuated because it says, there's a 16:11 contrast there, right? 16:14 Between everlasting life and not everlasting life. 16:19 Right, so that means that, definitionally, to perish is the 16:24 opposite of continuing to live and in the concept of God 16:28 burning people forever in hell, that supposes those individuals 16:32 and their punishment are living. 16:35 So, I think that's a powerful verse. 16:36 >>JAMES: It is and it also supposes that those who believe 16:39 are given something, those who don't believe aren't given, 16:42 everlasting life. 16:43 >>JEFFREY: And to add to that, Romans 6:23. 16:49 >>DAVID: I just wrote that down right here. 16:50 >>JEFFREY: Romans 6:23, for the wages of sin is death, same 16:54 thing, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our 16:58 Lord. 16:59 That's the same point, that the wages of sin is death and that 17:04 death, that the lost experience is the opposite 17:07 -- >>DAVID: Of the gift of eternal life that comes through 17:10 Jesus. 17:11 >>JEFFREY: --of eternal life. 17:12 So, this concept of God burning people in hell forever is 17:16 granting eternal life to the lost. 17:20 Where scripture, the gospel teaches that that is only made 17:24 accessible to those who are saved in Jesus Christ. 17:28 >>DAVID: Let me throw a text that says that very thing. 17:31 1 John chapter 3, verse 15, whoever hates his brother is a 17:36 murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life 17:40 abiding in him. 17:42 You know. 17:42 He said you know that. 17:44 Murderers don't get eternal life. 17:46 Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do murderers get? 17:47 Unrepentant murderers receive death. 17:50 Now, we're gonna get into this later, what the bible calls the 17:53 second death, but unrepentant murderers don't get is, you 17:58 know, conscious eternal life in some torturous nook or cranny of 18:04 the universe, that's not what they get, they get death. 18:07 They don't have eternal life. 18:08 >>JAMES: This just makes sense to me, all of these verses just 18:10 make sense. 18:11 These verses aren't specifically talking about hell at all, but 18:14 they are because, what we're doing, as we mentioned it in an 18:17 earlier program is we're moving into this slowly, just inching 18:22 our way inch by inch into this and we're setting up a 18:24 foundation here in understanding the love of God and what it 18:28 means to have eternal life. 18:30 We're setting up the foundation here that logically makes sense, 18:33 and not only connects with the heart of God, but it logically 18:36 makes sense. 18:36 >>TY: Yeah, yeah. 18:37 We have to take a break, but this is getting exciting now 18:40 that we're getting into the text, so we'll come right back. 18:43 [Music] 18:49 >>The bible is a big book. 18:51 It's composed of 66 smaller books, written by more than 40 18:55 different authors. 18:57 It's easy to get bogged down in all the genealogies, ancient 19:01 history and intersecting characters with unpronounceable 19:05 names. 19:06 And yet, the bible is full of rich and powerful truths that 19:10 all of us need to understand. 19:13 Wouldn't you love to have an experienced tour guide take you 19:17 on a step-by-step journey through some of the most vital 19:20 and beautiful truths contained in the bible? 19:23 Well, now, it's here. 19:25 It's called Truth Link. 19:27 Truth Link is a groundbreaking new series of easy to understand 19:32 bible study guides that thousands of people around the 19:36 world are raving about. 19:37 Why all the excitement? 19:39 Because Truth Link systematically unfolds 27 life 19:45 transforming biblical topics, but not as a list of dry 19:50 theological facts. 19:52 Rather, Truth Link takes you on an engaging, biblical 19:56 expedition, demonstrating how every truth of scripture reveals 20:02 some facet of God's beautiful character. 20:05 Truth Link isn't just information, it's a spiritual 20:09 journey that will radically impact your life. 20:13 We would really love for you to have these bible study guides 20:17 because we know they will be a blessing to you. 20:20 You can get them by visiting truthlink.org or by calling 20:26 541-988-3333. 20:32 [Music] 20:41 >>TY: There must be some logical basis for believing in 20:46 eternal torment and I think we need to approach that in 20:50 scripture because there is a doctrine that is foundational to 20:55 the doctrine of eternal torment. 20:57 There is another teaching and that teaching is natural 21:01 immortality, it's the idea that every human being is an immortal 21:06 soul and even though the human being dies a physical death, 21:11 okay, so the body dies and decays, something survives that 21:17 physical death and goes on to be with God in heaven or to be 21:23 eternally tormented in hell. 21:26 So, what can we say about this idea that human beings live 21:32 forever, no matter what. 21:33 So, you gotta put them somewhere, some go to heaven, 21:35 some go to hell, but if the thing that we are at the base 21:39 level is eternal, we're not all going to heaven. 21:44 >>JEFFREY: It doesn't just disappear. 21:45 >>TY: It doesn't just disappear. 21:46 It doesn't just evaporate, so. 21:47 >>JEFFREY: So, it makes sense why the good would go and the 21:50 bad would go. 21:51 >>DAVID: When you began by saying, Ty, that there's a 21:53 logical basis, it is logical if we grant that premise. 21:56 >>TY: What's that premise? 21:59 >>DAVID: Well, the premise is actually a patently Greek idea, 22:04 and this is important to recognize because many of the 22:07 modern evangelical scholars and theologians who are beginning to 22:10 say, hey, let's reconsider this, the Clark Pinnocks and the John 22:13 Stocks and the Rob Bells and others, the EW Fudges, they're 22:17 actually saying, hey, wait a minute, this is actually the 22:20 importation of a Greek idea into the biblical text rather than a 22:24 wrestling with what the text itself actually says, and this 22:28 Greek idea is called, the technical term is 22:31 anthropological dualism. 22:33 Anthropological, having to do with man or pertaining to 22:37 mankind, dualism that man is made up of two parts, the body, 22:42 which is physical and temporal, and the spirit or soul which is 22:46 immaterial and eternal. 22:48 So, when the body decays and the bones go back to the ground, 22:52 into the dust, there is an immaterial spirit, soul, that 22:57 continues, not for a year or two or ten or 100, but indefinitely. 23:01 So, that's Greek. 23:02 And that idea, the natural immortality of the soul, as you 23:06 call it, or anthropological dualism, has been imported into 23:09 the biblical text so that there are certain passages that seem 23:13 to suggest that that have been used to support this Greek idea. 23:17 But, in fact, the text that we've already looked at, the 23:20 John 3:16, the 1 John 3:15, the Romans chapter 6, verse 23, 23:24 these texts fly in the face of the idea that we possess natural 23:30 or innate immortality. 23:32 Eternal life, or what we might call immortality, is granted as 23:36 a gift, a gift for belief in Jesus Christ, trusting that his 23:41 life, his death, and his resurrection has done for us 23:43 what we could never do for ourselves. 23:45 That's bestowed as a gift. 23:47 It's not natural, it's not innate. 23:48 >>TY: So, are you saying that immortality does not pertain 23:55 naturally to human beings? 23:58 That it's not something that we have in ourselves, but rather 24:03 it's something that is bestowed upon a certain class of human 24:09 beings, namely, those who are eternally saved, okay, so where 24:13 is immortality? 24:15 Does anybody have immortality? 24:16 >>DAVID: Yes. 24:17 You got the text there, James? 24:18 >>JAMES: No, you got it, I got another point. 24:19 You make yours. 24:20 >>DAVID: 1 Timothy chapter 6, verse 15, says, which he will 24:24 manifest in his own time, he who is the blessed and only 24:29 potentate, King of kings and Lord of lords, speaking of God, 24:32 speaking of Christ. 24:33 Verse 16, who alone has immortality, dwelling in 24:38 unapproachable light whom no man has seen nor can see to whom the 24:41 honor and everlasting power, amen. 24:43 So, this is as clear as the noonday sun. 24:45 God alone possessed immortality. 24:47 >>TY: Does that mean nobody else has it? 24:50 >>DAVID: Not naturally. 24:51 >>JAMES: There are hundreds of verses in the bible that use the 24:55 word soul and not one of them ever describes the soul as 25:00 immortal, not one. 25:01 >>DAVID: Or eternal. 25:02 >>JAMES: And here's another point, we looked at the 25:05 bookmarks. 25:06 We looked at Genesis and Revelation and we looked at the 25:09 first two chapters and the last two chapters. 25:10 >>TY: In a previous conversation is what you're referring to. 25:12 >>JAMES: In a previous conversation. 25:13 We looked at those two chapters as bookmarks and we said, okay, 25:15 here's the beginning, here's the end. 25:17 Here's what God created, it was very good, here's what he's 25:19 gonna have at the end of all this mess and everything in the 25:21 middle is a mess. 25:22 If you look again at those two bookmarks, you have, in the 25:26 opening of creation, you have what's called the tree of life, 25:30 it's in the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve partake of this 25:34 tree of life and this tree of life is something that is 25:37 actually taken away from them. 25:39 In other words, there's a restriction of access to the 25:42 tree of life when they sin. 25:44 Angels are sent to guard the garden, and this is just 25:48 biblical fact. 25:49 They can't go in and they can't partake of the tree of life 25:51 because God did not want sin to be eternalized. 25:56 But as you go through the whole process, all through the book of 25:59 Old Testament, New Testament, you get to the book of 26:02 Revelation, guess what happens? 26:03 In Revelation chapter 21, in Revelation chapter 22, you now 26:08 have access again to the tree of life in Revelation chapter 22, 26:10 the tree of life. 26:12 >>JEFFREY: One sin is evil. 26:13 Can I read the text that you're referring to because I think 26:17 that's a foundational point. 26:19 James is breaking down Genesis 3:22, where after the fall, this 26:26 is what we read, and God said, behold, the man has become like 26:30 one of us, to know good and evil, and now, lest he put his 26:33 hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live 26:37 forever. 26:38 So, just what you were saying, the reason that that prohibition 26:43 was put in place is so that now man, as a fallen creature, with 26:49 sin, would not have access to the ability to perpetuate sin 26:54 and evil. 26:55 >>JAMES: Sin would not be immortalized and sinners would 26:56 not be immortalized. 26:57 And now we have Revelation 22 and verse 1, and he showed me a 26:59 pure river of the water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out 27:02 of the throne of God and the lamb of God, in the midst of the 27:05 street of it, and on either side of the river was the tree of 27:08 life. 27:09 So, in Revelation chapter 22, you have the restoration of the 27:12 tree of life that has 12 manner of fruit that we could partake 27:15 of. 27:16 It's for the healing of the nations. 27:17 >>DAVID: And I'm gonna add that Revelation 21 there, the tree of 27:20 life isn't given until after Revelation, excuse me, 22, isn't 27:23 given until after Revelation chapter 20, which describes what 27:26 the bible calls the second death. 27:28 So, when sin and sinners are no more, now you have the 27:32 restoration of the tree of life. 27:35 >>TY: Which is to say the restoration of eternal life or 27:38 immortality. 27:39 >>JAMES: So, it's not that we would just say, oh, there's no 27:42 immortal soul in the bible, or only God has immortality. 27:44 We have a picture here, we have a story, an outline, a picture 27:47 here and we know where eternal life came from, we know that it 27:51 was restricted after sin and we know it's gonna be restored 27:53 after sin. 27:55 >>TY: Well, let me just add a scripture to the one you read 27:56 where Paul says that God alone has immortality. 28:01 >>DAVID: Okay, and I've got another one, too. 28:02 >>TY: Okay, 1 Corinthians chapter 15 explicitly says, in 28:07 verse 53, speaking of those who are redeemed, the saved, at the 28:12 second coming of Jesus, it says, for this corruptible must put on 28:17 incorruption and this mortal shall put on immortality. 28:24 So, here is a very clear statement, Paul regarding 28:29 himself and it applies to all of us, we're mortal. 28:32 >>DAVID: Means subject to death. 28:34 >>TY: Subject to death. 28:35 >>JAMES: You have to read verse 54. 28:36 >>TY: And immortality is conferred upon the human being 28:42 as a gift at this point and it's only conferred upon those who 28:47 are the saved, the redeemed. 28:49 What did you say, James, also read? 28:51 >>JAMES: Verse 54, you have to, yeah. 28:53 So, then, so when this corruptible, again, emphasizing, 28:56 shall put on incorruption and this mortal shall put on 28:59 immortality, and I'm gonna emphasize this, then shall be 29:02 brought to pass, saying, that is written, death shall be 29:04 swallowed up in victory. 29:05 >>TY: Okay, so immortality. 29:07 >>DAVID: Death is dead. 29:08 >>TY: Immortality is something that God alone possesses, it's 29:11 not natural, and human beings do not have it innately naturally, 29:17 and immortality will be bestowed as a gift upon the redeemed and 29:23 they will live forever immortally, but there's nowhere 29:26 in the bible, let me just throw this out as this, okay, there's 29:31 nowhere in the bible where the word immortality or any 29:35 configuration thereof is applied to the lost, to the eternally, 29:40 to the wicked. 29:42 >>DAVID: In fact, the opposite is applied, death. 29:44 Just remember, Spanish, what's death in Spanish? 29:47 >>JEFFREY: Muerte. 29:49 >>DAVID: Muerte, so, it's the same in the Latin, morte, like 29:51 mortuary. 29:52 So, mortal, immortal, so if you're immortal, you are not 29:57 subject to death. 29:58 If you're mortal, you're a dying creature or you're a nondying 30:02 creature. 30:03 Scripture says, we'll go back to John 3:16 just briefly to remind 30:05 ourselves, for God so loved the world that he gave his only 30:07 begotten Son that whosoever believes in him wouldn't die. 30:11 Well, if you can't die or don't die or you won't die, you're 30:14 an... 30:15 >>JAMES: Immortal. 30:16 >>DAVID: Immortal creature. 30:17 We've said, established here, that's something that God alone 30:19 possesses innately or naturally. 30:21 Let me give you another text. 30:23 Romans chapter 2, beginning in verse 5, but in accordance with 30:26 your hardness and impenitent heart, you, speaking of the 30:31 wicked, are treasuring up for yourself wrath against the day 30:34 of wrath and the revelation of the righteous judgement of God, 30:37 who will render to each according to his deeds, but 30:39 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing 30:43 good seek for glory, honor, and immortality. 30:48 So, if you're seeking for immortality. 30:52 >>TY: You don't have it. 30:52 >>DAVID: It's because you don't have it. 30:53 God has it. 30:54 We're seeking for it, and according to the text, it's 30:57 sought for by reposing our faith in God, by trusting in Jesus, 31:04 having come and died in our place, having lived the life 31:07 that we didn't live, having died the death that we deserved and 31:08 raised to newness of life. 31:09 >>TY: So, when a human being dies, and the body decays, is 31:16 there a soul or something that survives physical death for all 31:26 eternity? 31:27 No, the bible is very clear, there is no survival of a soul, 31:31 regardless of a person's whether a person is saved or lost, there 31:37 is no soul that survives for all eternity into the future of the 31:42 wicked, only those who are among the redeemed, receive 31:47 immortality as a gift from God. 31:49 Is that accurate? 31:50 >>DAVID: It's extremely accurate. 31:51 Okay, so, in answer of the question, what is the soul? 31:54 And just to further what Ty is saying here, we described the 31:57 Greek idea of anthropological dualism, that man is body and 32:01 spirit, temporal and eternal, what the bible teaches is what 32:05 you might call anthropological monism. 32:07 In other words, one, mono, and that is, that mankind is a unity 32:13 of body and spirit and when those are divorced, when they're 32:17 disassociated, that's it, and that's what we find in the bible 32:22 over and over again, he breathed his last, he gave up the ghost, 32:25 he, because when the breath stops, just as in Genesis, when 32:29 the breath started, the breath of life is breathed into the 32:31 nostrils. 32:32 When that stops, it's not as though just the physicality of 32:35 the man or the woman stops, he, as a being, ceases to exist. 32:40 >>JEFFREY: Can I read that? 32:41 >>DAVID: Please. 32:43 >>JEFFREY: Genesis 3:19 shows us the rewind, what happens at 32:47 death, so we know, let me lead into that first, that in Genesis 32:52 2:7, the bible says that the Lord God formed man of the dust 32:57 of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life 33:01 and man became a living soul. 33:04 >>DAVID: He didn't have a soul, he was a soul. 33:07 >>JEFFREY: He wasn't given a soul, he became a soul, right? 33:10 And then, so that's the play button, that's a, he came into 33:14 being. 33:15 At death, all that happens is somebody presses the rewind 33:20 button and that is Genesis 3, verse 19, in the sweat of your 33:24 face, you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, but I 33:29 wanna emphasize this, until you, you, it doesn't say your soul, 33:33 until you, Adam, your holistic whatever, you, your youness, 33:40 returns to the ground for out of it you were taken, for dust you 33:46 are and to dust you shall return. 33:50 So, basically, the rewind button. 33:52 So, to bring the human race into existence, there was the dust of 33:58 the ground and there was, God breathed life into this new 34:02 being, new creature, and at death, all that happens is the 34:05 rewind. 34:06 >>DAVID: And those two make a one. 34:08 Those two don't remain a two. 34:10 That's dualism, that's monism, and when those two are 34:14 disassociated, the rewind button of, what was verse 19, Genesis 34:17 3:19? 34:18 Then, Adam, you cease to exist. 34:21 Now, God can recreate you, which, hallelujah, that's what 34:25 the word resurrection means, to be raised from that state of 34:29 death. 34:30 >>JEFFREY: Which is what will take place. 34:31 So, God, in some sense, and we don't know this, we can't get 34:33 into the psychology of how this works, maybe you guys know the 34:36 secret or mystery of how this works, but somehow, God 34:39 preserves the character, the personhood of the individual and 34:45 somehow, during resurrection in the end, God restores that. 34:50 >>TY: And I think scripture explicitly says that, two 34:53 scriptures to compare in Ecclesiastes chapter 9, verses 5 34:57 and 6, for the living know, that word refers to consciousness, 35:03 the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. 35:08 They have no consciousness, in other words. 35:10 The dead know nothing and they have no more reward, for the 35:16 memory of them is forgotten, verse 6, also their love, their 35:20 hatred, their envy have now perished. 35:25 And nevermore do they have a share in anything that is done 35:28 under the sun. 35:29 There's a lot there. 35:31 Point number one, the living are conscious of the fact that they 35:35 will die. 35:36 But once a person dies, the dead person knows nothing, zilch, 35:40 there is no conscious thought, and then he goes a step further 35:44 and says, their love is perished, which wouldn't be the 35:47 case if, when you die, you go straight to heaven, because 35:49 certainly, your love would be alive toward God. 35:50 >>DAVID: So, you're emotionally 35:52 -- >>TY: Hatred, perished? 35:54 Well, if you've gone straight to hell when you die, certainly, 35:57 there's gonna be rage and hatred and anger in your heart that is 35:59 perpetuated toward God. 36:01 >>DAVID: Which, I have a point about that, but keep going. 36:02 >>TY: Okay, so, love is perished, hatred is perished, 36:05 envy has now perished, but this is interesting, nevermore do 36:09 they have a sharing anything done under the sun. 36:13 And this connects with what is sometimes referred to as 36:17 spiritualism. 36:19 Because the idea that the soul survives the body in a conscious 36:24 state of some kind then prepares the way for the idea that human 36:31 beings who have died do have a share in what is done under the 36:35 sun. 36:36 You have this idea that deceased relatives return to speak with, 36:42 to commune with, to interact with, in everything from séances 36:45 to Ouija boards to just a person alone in their home after a 36:50 loved one has perished and having an encounter with a voice 36:55 or an apparition of some kind. 36:58 This scripture says that there is no consciousness after death 37:02 and therefore, the individual has no share in anything done 37:08 under the sun, that is, on planet earth. 37:10 But I said there were two scriptures in Ecclesiastes to 37:12 compare. 37:14 The next one is in Ecclesiastes chapter 12 and verse 7 and this 37:18 one is fascinating and this gets to what Jeffrey was raising, it 37:22 says here that the dust returns to the earth as it was and the 37:28 spirit returns to God, who gave it. 37:31 Jeffrey, you posed the question, you said, well, we know that God 37:35 preserves the individual identity, the personality, the 37:42 personhood, the character of a person when they die so that 37:45 that person can be restored to conscious existence in a new 37:49 body at the resurrection. 37:51 Well, check this out, this scripture tells us exactly what 37:54 happens. 37:55 This scripture says that the dust, that is the body, the 37:58 physical dimension, basically, it says that it returns to the 38:01 earth, it decays. 38:02 It just, it rots in the earth, it's compost. 38:06 But the spirit returns, in what form? 38:10 Well, he told us earlier, not in the conscious form, no love, no 38:12 hatred, nothing like that going on. 38:14 It returns to God. 38:15 This is what I think happens. 38:17 I think that a person lives their life and this scripture is 38:22 telling us that there is what you called personhood, 38:24 personality, character, the composite identity of the 38:28 individual, and God, I like your word, preserves that data so 38:36 that at the resurrection, a new body can be created and God can 38:40 take the hard drive, as it were, of that data, that information 38:44 that composed the personality and the identity, and just slap 38:48 it back into a new model, so to speak, a new body. 38:51 >>DAVID: Incorruptible. 38:53 >>TY: Incorruptible, immortal body, that's why Paul spoke of, 38:55 Paul was a tentmaker, he made tents and tents were houses in 39:00 his time, and he said he was looking forward to putting off 39:03 this tent and moving into a new tent. 39:06 >>DAVID: 2 Corinthians 5. 39:08 >>TY: So, he's basically saying, my body constitutes the house in 39:12 which I live and I'm looking forward to the immortal body, 39:17 but I'll be the same person. 39:19 >>DAVID: You know, we actually, thank you for that, Ty, that's 39:21 beautiful. 39:23 We actually have language that communicates that we feel, at 39:25 some level, a disassociation from our body. 39:28 We do this a lot. 39:29 We'll say things like, oh, yeah, my arm, I went to throw, but my 39:32 arm betrayed me. 39:33 >>TY: Who's the me? 39:34 >>DAVID: Yeah, if your arm is you, who is the arm betraying? 39:39 We say these things a lot. 39:41 Just the other day, I was watching a skateboard video, I 39:44 love to skateboard, and there was a skateboarder by the name 39:46 of Trevor Gaulden and he was trying to do this line and he 39:49 kept falling and kept falling, trying to do these different 39:50 tricks, and he said, listen to what he said, because he only 39:54 had so much time to get this trick done, it was a contest, 39:55 and then he said, well, I'll be able to make it, I don't know if 40:00 my body will. 40:01 See, we're communicating that we understand that there is an 40:06 usness that is not our physicality. 40:10 And the illustration I like to use is say you were involved in 40:12 a car accident and you lost your right arm so you became an 40:14 amputee. 40:16 Or maybe you lost both arms, okay, so now, you are 40:18 considerably less by volume, but you're still James, I'm still 40:24 David, you're still Jeffrey. 40:25 So, when God takes that hard drive, as you said, or that 40:29 data, that makes up the youness of Jeffrey and the youness of 40:32 James and the youness of Ty and the meness of David, and injects 40:35 it into a new body, well, that's still me, and I'll be, my 40:38 biceps, I know that's something hard to imagine. 40:41 They will probably be even bigger than they are now. 40:47 >>JAMES: I can't imagine that. 40:49 >>TY: You guys, we're a little bit over, we have to take a 40:51 break, but we have a whole, we have a third segment, so this 40:55 conversation isn't over yet. 40:57 >>JAMES: Good, because I've got an idea I wanna share. 40:59 [Music] 41:10 Announcer: Truth is not merely a list of theological facts, but 41:13 rather the revelation of God's beautiful love in Jesus Christ. 41:17 Truth Link is a series of bible study guides that magnify God's 41:21 love as the center of every bible doctrine. 41:24 To receive your free copy of lesson one, call 877-585-1111 or 41:31 write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, 41:36 Oregon, 97438. 41:38 Once again, to receive your free copy of Truth Link lesson one, 41:42 call 877-585-1111 or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper 41:50 Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon, 97438. 41:55 Simply ask for Truth Link, lesson one. 41:57 [Music] 42:04 >>TY: This has been a pretty great discussion so far, there's 42:08 no doubt, however, that we have raised questions that anybody 42:13 who's biblically literate is saying, but what about this 42:16 text, what about this one, this one, and this one? 42:18 There are verses, let's not pretend that they don't exist, 42:20 there are biblical passages that are challenging, that are 42:25 difficult. 42:26 So, I think in all fairness to the subject and to anybody who 42:31 is studying and looking into this subject, that we should 42:34 deal with those difficult passages. 42:35 So, I'll first begin by pointing out that in scripture, there are 42:43 passages that use words like everlasting and eternal to 42:48 describe the fire that comes upon the wicked. 42:53 Alright, for example, we have Matthew chapter 25 and verse 46, 43:02 and it says here, and these, speaking of the lost, the 43:06 wicked, will go away into everlasting punishment, but the 43:10 righteous into eternal life. 43:12 So, this is using the word everlasting in the Greek, it 43:18 could also just be translated just eternal, eternal 43:20 punishment. 43:22 There are other scriptures, for example, we have in Revelation 43:27 chapter 20, where the word eternal is used to describe the 43:32 fire that comes upon the wicked. 43:33 This one says eternal punishment, that one says 43:36 eternal fire. 43:37 Okay, so, I'd like us to just spend a moment wrapping our 43:40 minds around this idea of eternal, okay? 43:42 For example, when we read, in Jonah chapter 1, verses 17, and 43:51 then chapter 2, verse 6, we have Jonah describing his experience 43:57 in the belly of the whale, and he says, quote unquote, I was in 44:02 the belly of the whale forever, and then he turns around in the 44:06 next breath and he says, I was in the belly of the whale for 3 44:10 days and 3 nights. 44:12 So, is there a contradiction here? 44:14 Or are we dealing with a mode of speech, a usage of language in 44:20 scripture that needs to be taken into consideration. 44:24 Another example would be Exodus chapter 21 verse 6, where a 44:28 slave, a servant, who choses after his time of indentured 44:34 servitude is over, chooses to continue serving his master by 44:40 voluntary choice, when that's done, Exodus 21 verse 6 says 44:44 that he can choose to enter into a relationship with his master 44:49 in which he can serve him forever. 44:52 Now, we know from the text, and just from logic, that it's not 44:57 saying that he will serve that master eternally, we know the 45:02 text is telling us that forever means, as long as his life 45:05 lasts. 45:07 Jonah is in the belly of the whale as long as the experience 45:11 lasts. 45:12 I was on an airplane recently forever. 45:16 It certainly felt like forever, and I'm using the word in the 45:20 sense, I'm exaggerating for effect, is exactly what's 45:23 happening there. 45:24 >>DAVID: And not even just an exaggeration, but the word 45:27 forever or everlasting or eternal, in more, forever and 45:32 everlasting, in these contexts, modify the thing, the nature of 45:37 the thing that they're describing. 45:38 >>TY: Say it again? 45:39 >>DAVID: Okay, so these words modify the nature of the thing 45:42 they're describing. 45:43 >>TY: So, fire, if it's eternal. 45:45 >>DAVID: Okay, let me give what I think is a better example. 45:49 So, if the bible says that the mountains are from everlasting 45:52 to everlasting, as it says in the Old Testament, right? 45:55 You have established the hills. 45:56 They are from everlasting to everlasting. 45:58 Okay, that's true, but the bible also says that the rocks will 46:01 melt. 46:02 So, those mountains will last as long as mountains last. 46:05 The experience in the belly of the fish, that experience, the 46:11 word forever modifies that kind of an experience, so here's 46:14 where people fall into a tricky thing. 46:15 A slave is a slave forever and Jonah's in the belly of the fish 46:20 forever and the mountains last from everlasting to everlasting, 46:23 or forever, or the fire lasts forever. 46:24 Okay, if you take that same word, forever, or eternal, or 46:28 everlasting, and you apply it to God, well, it really does mean 46:33 throughout the ceaseless, eternal ages, because the nature 46:35 of God, the kind of being that God is, is a being that lasts 46:39 throughout unending ages. 46:41 So, when that word is applied to God, it means this. 46:44 When that word forever is applied to an airplane ride or 46:47 to a mountain or to slavery or to the time in the belly of a 46:50 fish, it means, as long as that lasts. 46:52 What it technically means is without interruption until 46:56 susation. 46:57 It's not interrupted until it stops. 47:01 And where people are getting fuzzy is where they say, well, 47:03 God is everlasting, but this is also everlasting, okay, but God 47:05 is a different kind of being. 47:07 >>TY: Yeah, I think there's more, oh, what were you gonna 47:10 say? 47:11 >>JAMES: Well, I was just gonna look at Jude chapter 1. 47:13 >>TY: Yeah, that's exactly where I was gonna go. 47:14 >>JAMES: And verse 7. 47:15 >>DAVID: As an example of eternal fire. 47:17 >>JAMES: Well, I like this because this is actually giving 47:20 us a biblical example, something that happened historically, 47:24 something that happened biblically. 47:25 It's talking about Sodom and Gomorrah here in Jude verse 7, I 47:30 say verse 7 this time because Jude just has one chapter, even 47:32 as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them and like man 47:36 are giving themselves over to fornication and going after 47:38 strange flesh are set forth as an example, suffering the 47:41 vengeance of eternal fire. 47:43 Now, we know that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by fire, 47:47 but we know that that fire is not still burning. 47:50 >>TY: But here it's called eternal fire. 47:53 >>JAMES: Right, so the point you're making, biblically sound 47:57 point you're making right here is verified in history, it's 48:01 verified in biblical history at least, we recognize that the 48:06 eternal fire is a fire that came down upon Sodom and Gomorrah as 48:11 a judgement and that that judgement was an eternal 48:14 judgement. 48:15 >>DAVID: The consequences were eternal. 48:16 >>JAMES: The consequences were eternal, the damnation is 48:18 eternal, there's no turning around from that consequence. 48:22 >>TY: Okay, throw this scripture in for Jude 7, 2 Peter chapter 2 48:27 verse 6, again is speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah and it says 48:31 that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were turned into ashes, 48:36 condemned to eternal destruction, or to destruction. 48:41 So, here, you have 2 passages, you have Jude saying, Sodom and 48:45 Gomorrah, eternal fire, you have Peter saying, Sodom and 48:48 Gomorrah, ashes, destruction. 48:51 Is there a contradiction? 48:52 Do you choose based on your theology? 48:55 I like this one better, I like this one better, no, you just 48:58 look at the site on planet earth where Sodom and Gomorrah were 49:03 once situated, yeah, and it's not there. 49:06 It's not burning. 49:07 >>JEFFREY: I've actually been there and it's not burning. 49:09 >>DAVID: Okay, so, go back to a text you've already quoted, Ty, 49:11 the end of Matthew chapter 25, when Jesus says to the lost, 49:14 these will go away to everlasting punishment, but the 49:19 righteous into eternal life. 49:21 Okay, so here we have eternal, defining life, well that is 49:24 unending, because it's describing the nature of the 49:26 thing. 49:27 Life. 49:28 Life is the opposite of death, but everlasting punishment is 49:33 saying, that's a punishment with everlasting consequences. 49:36 We know this because the new heaven and the new earth is not 49:41 a place of fiery, brimstone, torturous. 49:44 >>JAMES: And that is so key. 49:46 David, that is so key, because notice what it says in 49:49 Revelation 14, notice what it says here. 49:50 The third angel follows with a loud voice, warning against the 49:54 worship of the beast and his image and his mark, verse 9, and 49:57 then it says, in verse 10, the same, those who received the 50:00 mark of the beast, the same shall drink of the wine of the 50:04 wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture of his 50:07 indignation and he shall be tormented with fire and 50:10 brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence 50:14 of the lamb and the smoke of their torment ascends up forever 50:18 and ever. 50:19 So, we understand the forever and ever part, but what we don't 50:22 understand about hell, often, is that it actually takes place in 50:26 the presence of the holy angels and the presence of the lamb. 50:31 In other words, there's a description in Revelation 15 and 50:34 it's also in Isaiah 33, I believe, that talks about the 50:38 sea of glass mingled with fire. 50:40 The bible through and through talks about how God is a 50:43 consuming fire to sin and it asks the question in Isaiah 33, 50:48 who's going to be able to stand in the everlasting burnings? 50:51 And the answer is given in Malachi chapter 4, we're told 50:55 there that the wicked won't be able to. 50:57 Let me just read the verse, it says here that you will tread 51:00 down the wicked for they shall be ashes under the soles of your 51:04 feet in the day that I do this, saith the Lord of Hosts. 51:07 >>TY: So, the wicked are ashes. 51:08 >>JAMES: Just like Sodom and Gomorrah. 51:10 So, Sodom and Gomorrah is an example, 2 Peter says, of what's 51:13 going to happen to the wicked. 51:14 They are actually going to perish. 51:17 >>DAVID: Well said. 51:18 >>JEFFREY: That's awesome, you were just in Revelation 14, and 51:21 the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and I 51:25 encountered a passage in Isaiah 34, which, you all will 51:30 recognize, that actually, that that language is borrowed from 51:35 the Old Testament, and the picture presented in the book of 51:38 Revelation, for the end, the judgment at the end, hellfire, 51:41 the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, when 51:45 you look at Isaiah chapter 34, in verse 8, it is the day of the 51:49 Lord's vengeance, the year of recompense for the cause of 51:52 Zion, its streams shall be turned into pitch and its dust 51:57 into brimstone. 51:59 Its land shall become burning pitch, it shall not be quenched 52:03 night or day, its smoke shall ascend forever. 52:09 >>TY: From generation to generation. 52:11 >>JEFFREY: None shall pass through it forever and ever. 52:15 That's the exact same language used in Revelation chapter 14, 52:19 which just demonstrates what you've all been iterating here, 52:23 that the language being used here is one of finality. 52:26 >>DAVID: That's a great way to say it. 52:27 >>JEFFREY: It's describing a picture where the effects of 52:31 what's taking place are forever, are everlasting. 52:34 Just like in this passage here, where it's speaking of Edom, the 52:39 judgment on Edom. 52:41 >>TY: Well, how about this, the devil himself, Satan, is spoken 52:47 of in Ezekiel chapter 28 and God is addressing him directly and 52:51 says, I will bring forth a fire from the midst of you and it, 52:56 the fire, will devour you and I, God, will bring you, Satan, to 53:02 ashes upon the earth and never shall you be anymore. 53:09 >>JAMES: Oh, praise God. 53:10 >>TY: In other words, the devil, according to this passage, will 53:14 cease to exist. 53:15 The devil will be ashes under the feet of the righteous. 53:20 >>JEFFREY: But that's not the popular picture, the popular 53:21 picture is the devil is in hell... 53:22 >>TY: Presiding over, yeah. 53:25 >>JEFFREY: Or, by victim of God, and his life is prolonged 53:29 through the seasons. 53:30 >>TY: How about this, Obadiah 15 and 16 says of the wicked, they 53:35 shall be as though they had never been. 53:38 As if they had never existed. 53:40 >>DAVID: Okay, so, exactly, Jeffrey, just a moment ago, used 53:43 a great word, he used the word finality. 53:46 For us in this realm that we live in right now, death is a 53:50 finality. 53:51 If somebody close to you dies, they don't go to their house 53:53 anymore, they're not sleeping in their bed anymore, they're not 53:55 driving in their car anymore, there's a, follow this, a 53:59 temporary finality. 54:00 In other words, there's a sense in which that's done, but it's 54:03 only temporary because, according to scripture, there 54:04 will be a resurrection. 54:06 But the bible doesn't speak of just one death, the bible speaks 54:09 of a second death. 54:11 So, if a death is final, in the temporary sense, scripture says 54:15 the second death is final in an eternal sense. 54:18 The second death is the death from which there is no 54:21 resurrection. 54:23 Right, this is Revelation 20, this is Revelation, where's the 54:25 second death on such the second death has no power? 54:28 >>TY: Revelation 20 verse 6 and Revelation chapter 2 verse 14. 54:33 >>DAVID: Right, so, you have this idea of a second death, you 54:36 die the second death, from which there is no resurrection, and 54:40 there's the actual finality. 54:41 When sin and sinners are no more. 54:43 The last thing I wanna say and I'll turn it over to you guys 54:44 here, Ty said something a moment ago that was huge. 54:47 He said, if people go into the fires of hell, they are cursing, 54:50 they're filled with rage, they're filled with anger, 54:51 they're whatever, you know, they're conscious beings, 54:55 they're, if that's the case, then sin is eternal, sin is 55:00 immortal. 55:01 There will always be people blaspheming the name of God, 55:03 yelling against God, yelling against, I mean, really? 55:07 >>JEFFREY: There's no finality there. 55:08 >>DAVID: There's no finality, there's no end. 55:09 There is a perennial, eternal witness to hatred against God, 55:14 blasphemy against God, rebellion against God, no. 55:17 The bible says, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, sin 55:23 and sinners are no more, and God will give us a new heaven and a 55:27 new earth wherein dwells righteousness and peace and joy 55:31 and. 55:32 No, that's it, go. 55:34 >>TY: Have you guys considered Revelation 21? 55:39 It's kind of a roundabout way at coming at the question, but 55:43 after the new heavens and the new earth are created, it says 55:47 God will wipe away every tear from their eyes and there shall 55:50 be no more death nor sorrow nor crying, there shall be no more 55:57 pain, no more pain. 56:01 >>JAMES: True or false? 56:02 True or false? 56:03 >>TY: So, if there is someplace somewhere in the universe where 56:08 eternal souls are writhing in pain, it cannot be said there is 56:12 no more pain, because in fact, there is ongoing eternal, 56:16 nonstop pain. 56:17 >>JAMES: Every single Christian on planet earth needs to look at 56:20 that verse and needs to pray about that verse. 56:22 >>DAVID: That's right, and let's take it to the next level. 56:23 Jesus was only on the cross for a very short time. 56:28 He was in the tomb for a short time. 56:29 He came out of the tomb. 56:30 Now, the question is, did Jesus pay the wages of sin? 56:34 >>TY: This is so important. 56:36 >>DAVID: If Jesus didn't pay the wages of sin, there is no plan 56:41 of salvation, there is no redemption. 56:42 The whole New Testament, the whole bible falls flat on its 56:45 face. 56:46 So, now think about this, if the wages of sin is really eternal, 56:50 unending, everlasting, conscious torment in a fiery place, that 56:56 didn't happen to Jesus. 56:57 Even if you say as some do that Jesus went into the fiery abyss 57:02 for a time, well, even so, that's not eternal. 57:04 So, did Jesus pay the wages of sin? 57:08 Or didn't he pay the wages of sin? 57:09 He did and the wages of sin is not eternal, conscious torment 57:13 in the fiery depths, the wages, say it with me, of sin is death. 57:17 >>TY: And that's what we see Jesus experiencing on our 57:20 behalf. 57:21 >>DAVID: He died not just, and this is the part that Mel Gibson 57:24 got wrong in the Passion of the Christ, I never saw it, but he 57:26 got it wrong, it's the part that most of us get wrong, when we 57:29 think about the cross, we think, oh, look at the pain. 57:31 Look at the physical, look at the nails, look at the cross, 57:35 look at the crown of thorns, look at the blood. 57:39 It's far more than that, it's this, it's separation. 57:43 Sin causes separation from God, this causes death. 57:47 Why have you forsaken me? 57:49 Jesus is not merely dying the physical death of the 57:53 corruptible humanity, Jesus is dying the second death. 57:57 He is experiencing true hell, separation from his Father. 58:02 Jesus truly paid the wages of sin. 58:06 >>TY: Seems to me like the biblical picture of the final 58:09 demise of the wicked, if really delved into and understood, 58:13 vindicates the character of God, it beautifies the character of 58:18 God. 58:19 We can say, God, even in the way that you deal with your enemies, 58:23 you will be just. 58:24 I mean, we don't regard any earthly government as a just 58:29 government that inflicts torture. 58:31 How could we possibly expect anything less of God? 58:37 God is good, God is love, and therefore, God will deal justly 58:43 and mercifully, even with his enemies, even with those who are 58:48 eternally lost. 58:49 [Music] 58:52 eternally lost. |
Revised 2016-04-14