[Music]
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[Music]
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learned a lot just through
the process of conversing about
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these hard questions, but here
we are, coming to almost the
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end, we're on discussion number
12, and we're about to tackle
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something that is
genuinely a hard question.
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We're going to delve into
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-- >>JEFFREY: Well, all of
them have been hard questions.
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>>DAVID: I was like, and those
other ones were those easier
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ones.
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>>TY: Modification, this one's
harder than all the others?
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>>JAMES: No.
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>>TY: No, it's not.
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>>DAVID: This
is a hard question.
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>>TY: This is a hard question,
okay, what is the question?
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The question is this, will God
really burn people in hell for
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eternity?
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Now, that's relevant
from 2 angles at very least.
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One is, there's a bunch of
people in the world who believe
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it and on the other hand,
there's a lot of people in the
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world who don't believe it and,
consequently, don't believe in
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God at all
because of that doctrine.
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>>JEFFREY: Wouldn't you even say
that, at least in the Christian
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world, the majority of
Christianity probably would lean
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towards that direction.
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>>DAVID: No probably, that's...
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>>JAMES: Fact.
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>>JEFFREY: So, it's
clearly a relevant topic.
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>>TY: Since you brought up from
that angle, you know, there's
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about 1.2 billion Catholics,
probably about a billion
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Protestants and pretty much
all of those professed Christian
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believers subscribe to the
doctrine of eternal torment.
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Then, if you take in also the 1
point whatever billion Muslims,
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they also believe in eternal
torment, you've got basically
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half the human race who believes
that God will torture people for
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eternity.
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>>DAVID: Or, maybe to soften
it very slightly, that God would
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allow them to be
tortured for eternity.
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In other words, God may not be
the active agent in it, but he's
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at least, he acquiesces
to it, he's complicit.
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He's, hey, look, that's a choice
you've made and I'm going to
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allow it to continue to happen.
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In other words,
he's not, maybe actively.
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>>JEFFREY: And a percentage of
the people who remain from the
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percentage you described are
comprised by people, many, who
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have reacted to that and decided
that, nah, not into it, not into
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religion.
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>>TY: Well, could we
begin by just talking about
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-- >>DAVID: Well, can I
say something at the outset?
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>>TY: Sure.
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>>DAVID: This is the most
hideous conceivable picture of
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God.
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It's impossibly difficult.
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It's just impossible to
reconcile that picture with God,
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a God that would do that, would
be capable of that, that would
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take pleasure in that, with the
God that we've been exploring in
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the first 11 conversations.
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So, I just wanna put all my
cards on the table, right up
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front.
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I was just
thinking, I think we're good.
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>>TY: So, you
don't believe in hell?
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>>DAVID: I don't believe, I
thought the specific question
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was, will God burn or
will allow, or, what was the
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question?
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>>TY: Will God really
burn people forever in hell?
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>>DAVID: Yeah, I think that's
an easily answered question.
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>>TY: What's the answer?
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>>DAVID: No.
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>>TY: No.
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Let us close with prayer.
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Or can we explore
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-- >>JEFFREY: But he would still
affirm, to answer your question,
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he would still
affirm the reality of hell.
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>>DAVID: Of what scripture
teaches about hell, of what it
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is.
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>>TY: So, we'll get to what
scripture teaches, but maybe
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it'll be good to begin by just
talking a little bit about the
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idea of torture.
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>>JAMES: Well, I wanted to just
touch on what David said with a
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story and illustration.
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You said that this is
probably the most despicable
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representation of God that
you could find in Christianity,
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let's say.
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>>DAVID: In the world, I
can't imagine something worse.
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>>JAMES: I was travelling down
south in what we understand to
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be the bible belt and the reason
it's called the bible belt is
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because this is where the
majority of Christians in the
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United States reside.
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They live in this part of the
United States, they call it the
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belt because it's just one state
after another after another with
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majority of people
that are just Christians.
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And I was looking for a radio
station because I was travelling
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for a few hours in a car
and it's not hard to find
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-- >>DAVID:
Christian radio stations.
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>>JAMES: --in the bible belt.
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>>DAVID: Every single time
you click it, it's like another,
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another, another one, another.
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>>JAMES: So, it wasn't an issue
of finding one, it was an issue
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simply of finding
one that was interesting.
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And I came upon this one that
was teaching this idea of hell
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and it was a call-in station.
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And in the context of listening,
and the reason I was listening
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was because I was just trying
to understand why people would
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teach this or believe this.
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I knew that I was raised in a
church, I was raised Catholic,
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so I was raised in a church that
taught and believed this, but
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once I began to study the bible,
it was just obvious to me from
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biblical understanding and
teaching that no, this isn't,
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there's a few texts that we need
to understand, but this isn't
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the basic general picture.
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So, as I'm listening, I'm
learning something that would
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take this one step further and
that's why I wanted to bring up
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this illustration, I would say
we take it one step further and
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that is that these two gentlemen
who were running this talk show
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also believed in
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-- >>DAVID: Pre-destination.
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>>JAMES: Yes.
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Calvinism.
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They believed that God had
chosen certain people to be
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saved and certain people to be
lost and there was nothing that
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anyone can do about that,
therefore, think about this, God
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and his foreknowledge has chosen
certain people for, their only
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purpose in life is to
burn eternally in hell.
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And I just turned that radio
off, I didn't even look for
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another station, I just turned
that radio off, tears came to my
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eyes and I just started
thinking, there are people in
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this world that are being taught
this and believing, and the
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reason why I say this is because
people are calling in and one
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person called in trying to say,
well, wait a minute, and they
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just shut them down, you know
how they do that sometimes, they
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shut them down, and I thought,
wow, there are people in this
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world and that is their picture
of God, that's the picture
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they're receiving from God.
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>>DAVID: And not only is that
tear-inducing and anger-inducing
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and confusion inducing, but
then, to call that part of the
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good news, I'm sorry, I
missed the good news part.
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Okay, maybe the good news is
that you don't have to go there,
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okay, that's the good news, but
you have to go spend eternity
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with a God who would superintend
that process, who would think
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that that's, both of those
are equally unappealing to me.
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>>JEFFREY: That's a good point.
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>>TY: And let's just put it
out there straight, the fact is,
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you're spending eternity
with God in eternal bliss and
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paradise and there are people
who, in this life, you have
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known that aren't there, so you
have to somehow balance the idea
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in your mind forever and ever
that somewhere, in the universe,
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wherever it is,
somewhere, people  I've known,
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right now, are writhing
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in the agony of the flames as
I'm partaking of fruit from the
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tree of life, they're
surfacing again in the flames.
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>>DAVID: It's
so patently absurd.
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And I'm not saying there are not
some texts, as you said, James,
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that we have to wrestle through,
and we'll do that, but the more
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that this comes to light and
the more you think about it, of
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course, the mind can't
comprehend eternity, the mind
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can't comprehend this depth of
torture, the pain that would be,
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I mean, but in as much as we can
comprehend it, the absurdity of
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it is evident, in my opinion.
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I just
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-- >>JEFFREY: We should probably
mention as well that in recent
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years, even within mainstream
Christianity where this is
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pretty much a
foundational teaching.
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>>DAVID: There's been
a kickback against it.
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>>JEFFREY: Well, there's
been specific key players, key
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leaders, key preachers that
have said, wait a second, wait a
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second, the more I think about
this, the less I can reconcile
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it with the life
and teachings of Jesus.
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>>DAVID: And not just the more
they think about it, but the
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more they go to the text.
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They go to the text and
they say, wait a minute, there's
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other ways, better ways to
understand these texts and the
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thing that's the most
fascinating is not that the, you
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know, the, what's, EW Fudge and
Rob Bell and NT Wright and Clark
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Pinnock, these are some of the
names, Gregory Boyd, John Stock.
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It's not just they are
these well-known, influential,
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evangelical theologians and
preachers that are saying, hey,
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let's reconsider that,
let's just hold that up to the
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scrutiny of
scriptural investigation.
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To me, the most fascinating part
is the pushback against them is
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that, oh, you're denying
scripture, you're denying the
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truth, you're soft selling
the text, and it's like, people
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don't want to give this up.
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They
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-- >>TY: Why?
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What's behind that?
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What's the psychology behind
actually wanting for there to be
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a doctrine of eternal torment
that is sustained, why would you
00:09:04.11\00:09:07.48
want to believe that?
00:09:07.48\00:09:08.94
>>DAVID: I can't imagine that.
00:09:08.94\00:09:10.58
>>JAMES: I think part of it goes
back to, I've studied this out,
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part of it goes back to missing
the principle that we've been
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talking about and establishing
as a foundation to our programs
00:09:15.88\00:09:19.99
all through the
series and that is love.
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If you miss that principle of
love motivation, then there has
00:09:22.19\00:09:25.89
to be another motivation and
there are a lot of churches and
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a lot of people that I've
talked to, spoken to, especially
00:09:28.80\00:09:32.10
pastors, that would say, in
response to this, they would
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say, well, we can't teach that,
we can't teach what the bible
00:09:35.47\00:09:39.04
teaches, we can't teach what
you're saying and understand it
00:09:39.04\00:09:43.45
the way you're understanding it,
that would remove the motivation
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that people have, people would
not be motivated to stay out of
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hell if we somehow change it to
make it sound like, it's just,
00:09:52.45\00:09:57.16
it's a place but it doesn't
last forever, it doesn't burn
00:09:57.16\00:10:00.90
forever.
00:10:00.90\00:10:01.70
It is a punishment,
but it's not eternal.
00:10:01.70\00:10:03.77
That would really, we'd lose
a lot of people, we'd lose a lot
00:10:03.77\00:10:07.17
of members.
00:10:07.17\00:10:08.40
>>TY: I guess what you're saying
is without the factor of fear,
00:10:08.40\00:10:11.64
you would have to have such a
robust view of the gospel that
00:10:11.64\00:10:16.64
it would serve as a motivation
for continuing to love and serve
00:10:16.64\00:10:22.35
God even without that motive
of fear, of eternal torment.
00:10:22.35\00:10:27.69
So, you'd have to have a view of
the gospel that would completely
00:10:27.69\00:10:32.23
supplant that fear motive.
00:10:32.23\00:10:34.83
>>JAMES: Absolutely.
00:10:34.83\00:10:35.76
>>DAVID: How do you
answer that question, Ty?
00:10:35.76\00:10:37.23
>>TY: Which one?
00:10:37.23\00:10:38.43
>>DAVID: Well, the one about
what would be the psychological
00:10:38.43\00:10:40.24
motive behind that?
00:10:40.24\00:10:42.17
Why would you wanna keep that?
00:10:42.17\00:10:44.11
>>TY: Yeah, I think that James
got at it and that is that if
00:10:44.11\00:10:49.51
we're not motivated by love,
you have to be motivated by
00:10:49.51\00:10:53.45
something, and we all know
that we have guilt upon our
00:10:53.45\00:10:59.02
conscience, we're sinners,
we're fallen, and so, to face
00:10:59.02\00:11:05.93
ourselves off and others with
the threat of eternal torment is
00:11:05.93\00:11:09.50
a pretty strong motivation
to keep myself in line.
00:11:09.50\00:11:13.23
So, I think that
might be what's going on.
00:11:13.23\00:11:16.54
I also think, and we need to be
very careful here, there are a
00:11:16.54\00:11:20.84
lot of people who subscribe to
the doctrine of eternal torment,
00:11:20.84\00:11:26.85
and they do genuinely love the
Lord, but they're not thinking
00:11:26.85\00:11:31.25
about it on a
deep, theological level.
00:11:31.25\00:11:35.42
I've met a lot of believers
who just assumed that it's true
00:11:35.42\00:11:39.43
because they were raised to
believe that it's true, but they
00:11:39.43\00:11:41.60
haven't thought of it very
much and there are all kinds of
00:11:41.60\00:11:43.40
churches that simply don't
preach it and it's just in the
00:11:43.40\00:11:47.30
background.
00:11:47.30\00:11:48.50
It's a traditional doctrine
and they assume that it must be
00:11:48.50\00:11:51.31
right, but they don't wanna
preach it, they don't wanna talk
00:11:51.31\00:11:53.94
about it, they don't wanna deal
with it because it is, it is
00:11:53.94\00:11:58.05
pretty glaringly uncomfortable,
so we don't want to suggest that
00:11:58.05\00:12:04.29
anybody who believes that that
doctrine is true does not love
00:12:04.29\00:12:08.79
the Lord.
00:12:08.79\00:12:09.26
That's just not--
00:12:09.26\00:12:10.73
>>JEFFREY: But we're saying
that their love for the Lord is
00:12:10.73\00:12:13.29
incompatible with
their belief with this.
00:12:13.29\00:12:15.73
>>TY: So, they do love the Lord.
00:12:15.73\00:12:17.30
>>JEFFREY: Absolutely, it's just
that there are certain beliefs
00:12:17.30\00:12:19.77
that are incompatible and
we perhaps haven't made the
00:12:19.77\00:12:23.81
connection, but it doesn't
take away from the fact that we
00:12:23.81\00:12:25.61
sincerely love the Lord.
00:12:25.61\00:12:26.91
>>DAVID: And I just wanna
add to that, that while we can
00:12:26.91\00:12:29.54
vigorously defend the
authenticity and sincerity of
00:12:29.54\00:12:35.02
their commitment to Jesus and we
would do that, we wouldn't even
00:12:35.02\00:12:37.32
think to undermine, not a
Catholic, not a Presbyterian,
00:12:37.32\00:12:41.56
not a Methodist, their
sincerity, their commitment to
00:12:41.56\00:12:45.76
God.
00:12:45.76\00:12:47.00
But with equal vigor, we have to
insist on what the text actually
00:12:47.00\00:12:50.97
says, and we can insist on
the reality of the absurdity of
00:12:50.97\00:12:55.50
trying to merge these two in--
00:12:55.50\00:13:01.51
>>TY: Congruent.
00:13:01.51\00:13:02.54
>>DAVID: Incongruent,
incompatible, antithetical
00:13:02.54\00:13:04.78
ideas.
00:13:04.78\00:13:05.38
>>TY: Right.
00:13:05.38\00:13:06.48
>>DAVID: With your guys'
permission in this conversation,
00:13:06.48\00:13:07.92
perhaps more than any other
conversation that we've had, we
00:13:07.92\00:13:11.22
just, I wanna just
throw biblical text at this.
00:13:11.22\00:13:14.29
I just wanna like, let's just,
not that we're gonna in some
00:13:14.29\00:13:18.09
definitive sense
solve this controversy.
00:13:18.09\00:13:20.40
But, for those people that have
the privilege or the opportunity
00:13:20.40\00:13:23.37
to see this conversation,
let's just make it clear.
00:13:23.37\00:13:27.87
By the grace of God.
00:13:27.87\00:13:29.20
>>TY: Yeah, so, first of all,
what about, let's just lay down
00:13:29.20\00:13:32.67
a bible verse that we regard
as foundational to all biblical
00:13:32.67\00:13:36.61
doctrine.
00:13:36.61\00:13:37.45
1 John chapter 4,
verse 8, God is love.
00:13:37.45\00:13:40.38
So, once that scriptural outlook
on God's character is on the
00:13:40.38\00:13:45.42
table, then try to couple that
with God sayin, I love you, God
00:13:45.42\00:13:51.39
is love and I love you, but if
you don't love me back, I will
00:13:51.39\00:13:55.76
subject you, either by
permitting it to happen and
00:13:55.76\00:13:58.77
sustaining the system by which
it will be perpetuated forever,
00:13:58.77\00:14:03.87
or by inflicting it upon you.
00:14:03.87\00:14:05.44
I love you, but if you don't
love me back, I will subject you
00:14:05.44\00:14:09.34
to torture for eternity.
00:14:09.34\00:14:11.55
That should produce
some intellectual dissonance.
00:14:11.55\00:14:15.68
>>JEFFREY: There's actually a
video on YouTube that mocks that
00:14:15.68\00:14:18.69
where the guy is reading off and
he's reading about all of the
00:14:18.69\00:14:20.96
verses in the bible about how
God loves us and he cares for us
00:14:20.96\00:14:24.33
and all of this, and then he
says, no excuse me, he's reading
00:14:24.33\00:14:27.93
verses about, you know,
judgement and so forth and he's
00:14:27.93\00:14:31.40
rehearsing the Christian belief
that God will torture people in
00:14:31.40\00:14:34.67
hell, and then he says what you
said, and then he says, and I
00:14:34.67\00:14:37.57
love you.
00:14:37.57\00:14:38.11
>>DAVID: PS, I love you.
00:14:38.11\00:14:40.54
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, and the
audience just erupts in laughter
00:14:40.54\00:14:42.24
and he's saying, what is this?
00:14:42.24\00:14:43.98
>>JAMES: The second verse
I would like us to look at in
00:14:43.98\00:14:46.35
relation to this 1
John 4:8 is John 3:16.
00:14:46.35\00:14:49.18
These are really powerful
verses, both of these are really
00:14:49.18\00:14:51.55
good verses, so 1 John 4:8,
God is love, second verse, John
00:14:51.55\00:14:56.36
3:16, for God so loved the world
that he gave his only begotten
00:14:56.36\00:15:00.53
son that whosoever
believes in him should not...
00:15:00.53\00:15:03.00
>>DAVID: Perish.
00:15:03.00\00:15:03.80
>>JAMES: Perish.
00:15:03.80\00:15:05.03
Not, it doesn't say, and I like
this, when we read the bible, we
00:15:05.03\00:15:08.14
need to also think about what
it doesn't say, what it does say
00:15:08.14\00:15:11.37
and what it doesn't say.
00:15:11.37\00:15:12.61
What it does say is that those
who don't believe are going to
00:15:12.61\00:15:14.88
perish, what it doesn't say is
that those who don't believe are
00:15:14.88\00:15:17.88
gonna be tortured by God for all
eternity in a place called hell.
00:15:17.88\00:15:21.35
It doesn't say that in the text.
00:15:21.35\00:15:22.58
So, I like that because that is
a God is love verse, that is a
00:15:22.58\00:15:27.69
God loves the world verse
and it's also helping us to
00:15:27.69\00:15:30.59
understand that there is
a consequence, there is a
00:15:30.59\00:15:34.73
legitimate consequence to not
believing, but that consequence
00:15:34.73\00:15:37.30
has been, I think, exaggerated.
00:15:37.30\00:15:39.77
>>JEFFREY: I think there's
more mileage in that verse.
00:15:39.77\00:15:44.57
I've always read that verse,
everything you just said, even
00:15:44.57\00:15:49.88
more so, the text, it's not
merely what the text doesn't
00:15:49.88\00:15:53.21
say, it's what the text does
say, which you were saying the
00:15:53.21\00:15:57.62
same thing, just in my
own different way, the text
00:15:57.62\00:16:01.79
explicitly denies, like you were
saying, that those who are lost
00:16:01.79\00:16:07.50
have their lives perpetuated
because it says, there's a
00:16:07.50\00:16:11.03
contrast there, right?
00:16:11.03\00:16:14.04
Between everlasting life
and not everlasting life.
00:16:14.04\00:16:19.61
Right, so that means that,
definitionally, to perish is the
00:16:19.61\00:16:24.01
opposite of continuing to
live and in the concept of God
00:16:24.01\00:16:28.82
burning people forever in hell,
that supposes those individuals
00:16:28.82\00:16:32.55
and their punishment are living.
00:16:32.55\00:16:35.12
So, I think
that's a powerful verse.
00:16:35.12\00:16:36.93
>>JAMES: It is and it also
supposes that those who believe
00:16:36.93\00:16:39.86
are given something, those
who don't believe aren't given,
00:16:39.86\00:16:42.56
everlasting life.
00:16:42.56\00:16:43.50
>>JEFFREY: And to
add to that, Romans 6:23.
00:16:43.50\00:16:49.17
>>DAVID: I just
wrote that down right here.
00:16:49.17\00:16:50.37
>>JEFFREY: Romans 6:23, for
the wages of sin is death, same
00:16:50.37\00:16:54.78
thing, but the gift of God is
eternal life in Christ Jesus our
00:16:54.78\00:16:58.08
Lord.
00:16:58.08\00:16:59.31
That's the same point, that the
wages of sin is death and that
00:16:59.31\00:17:04.09
death, that the lost
experience is the opposite
00:17:04.09\00:17:07.82
-- >>DAVID: Of the gift of
eternal life that comes through
00:17:07.82\00:17:10.53
Jesus.
00:17:10.53\00:17:11.19
>>JEFFREY: --of eternal life.
00:17:11.19\00:17:12.36
So, this concept of God burning
people in hell forever is
00:17:12.36\00:17:16.93
granting eternal
life to the lost.
00:17:16.93\00:17:20.74
Where scripture, the gospel
teaches that that is only made
00:17:20.74\00:17:24.64
accessible to those who
are saved in Jesus Christ.
00:17:24.64\00:17:28.44
>>DAVID: Let me throw a
text that says that very thing.
00:17:28.44\00:17:31.51
1 John chapter 3, verse 15,
whoever hates his brother is a
00:17:31.51\00:17:36.28
murderer, and you know that
no murderer has eternal life
00:17:36.28\00:17:40.02
abiding in him.
00:17:40.02\00:17:42.32
You know.
00:17:42.32\00:17:42.99
He said you know that.
00:17:42.99\00:17:44.59
Murderers don't
get eternal life.
00:17:44.59\00:17:46.39
Well, whoa, whoa,
whoa, what do murderers get?
00:17:46.39\00:17:47.83
Unrepentant
murderers receive death.
00:17:47.83\00:17:50.90
Now, we're gonna get into this
later, what the bible calls the
00:17:50.90\00:17:53.67
second death, but unrepentant
murderers don't get is, you
00:17:53.67\00:17:58.14
know, conscious eternal life in
some torturous nook or cranny of
00:17:58.14\00:18:04.35
the universe, that's not
what they get, they get death.
00:18:04.35\00:18:07.05
They don't have eternal life.
00:18:07.05\00:18:08.28
>>JAMES: This just makes sense
to me, all of these verses just
00:18:08.28\00:18:10.39
make sense.
00:18:10.39\00:18:11.62
These verses aren't specifically
talking about hell at all, but
00:18:11.62\00:18:14.29
they are because, what we're
doing, as we mentioned it in an
00:18:14.29\00:18:17.39
earlier program is we're moving
into this slowly, just inching
00:18:17.39\00:18:22.20
our way inch by inch into
this and we're setting up a
00:18:22.20\00:18:24.40
foundation here in understanding
the love of God and what it
00:18:24.40\00:18:28.10
means to have eternal life.
00:18:28.10\00:18:30.11
We're setting up the foundation
here that logically makes sense,
00:18:30.11\00:18:33.21
and not only connects with the
heart of God, but it logically
00:18:33.21\00:18:36.04
makes sense.
00:18:36.04\00:18:36.61
>>TY: Yeah, yeah.
00:18:36.61\00:18:37.78
We have to take a break,
but this is getting exciting now
00:18:37.78\00:18:40.18
that we're getting into the
text, so we'll come right back.
00:18:40.18\00:18:43.25
[Music]
00:18:43.25\00:18:47.72
>>The bible is a big book.
00:18:49.42\00:18:51.26
It's composed of 66 smaller
books, written by more than 40
00:18:51.26\00:18:55.93
different authors.
00:18:55.93\00:18:57.77
It's easy to get bogged down
in all the genealogies, ancient
00:18:57.77\00:19:01.47
history and intersecting
characters with unpronounceable
00:19:01.47\00:19:05.27
names.
00:19:05.27\00:19:06.51
And yet, the bible is full
of rich and powerful truths that
00:19:06.51\00:19:10.91
all of us need to understand.
00:19:10.91\00:19:13.15
Wouldn't you love to have an
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on a step-by-step journey
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00:19:17.29\00:19:20.59
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00:19:20.59\00:19:23.46
Well, now, it's here.
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Because Truth Link
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Rather, Truth Link takes
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00:19:52.39\00:19:56.89
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00:19:56.89\00:20:02.23
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[Music]
00:20:32.79\00:20:41.07
>>TY: There must be some
logical basis for believing in
00:20:41.70\00:20:46.04
eternal torment and I think
we need to approach that in
00:20:46.04\00:20:50.55
scripture because there is a
doctrine that is foundational to
00:20:50.55\00:20:55.25
the doctrine of eternal torment.
00:20:55.25\00:20:57.12
There is another teaching
and that teaching is natural
00:20:57.12\00:21:01.79
immortality, it's the idea that
every human being is an immortal
00:21:01.79\00:21:06.90
soul and even though the human
being dies a physical death,
00:21:06.90\00:21:11.87
okay, so the body dies and
decays, something survives that
00:21:11.87\00:21:17.51
physical death and goes on to
be with God in heaven or to be
00:21:17.51\00:21:23.81
eternally tormented in hell.
00:21:23.81\00:21:26.11
So, what can we say about
this idea that human beings live
00:21:26.11\00:21:32.02
forever, no matter what.
00:21:32.02\00:21:33.79
So, you gotta put them
somewhere, some go to heaven,
00:21:33.79\00:21:35.72
some go to hell, but if the
thing that we are at the base
00:21:35.72\00:21:39.43
level is eternal, we're
not all going to heaven.
00:21:39.43\00:21:44.17
>>JEFFREY: It
doesn't just disappear.
00:21:44.17\00:21:45.17
>>TY: It doesn't just disappear.
00:21:45.17\00:21:46.37
It doesn't just evaporate, so.
00:21:46.37\00:21:47.60
>>JEFFREY: So, it makes sense
why the good would go and the
00:21:47.60\00:21:50.41
bad would go.
00:21:50.41\00:21:51.51
>>DAVID: When you began
by saying, Ty, that there's a
00:21:51.51\00:21:53.61
logical basis, it is logical
if we grant that premise.
00:21:53.61\00:21:56.98
>>TY: What's that premise?
00:21:56.98\00:21:59.88
>>DAVID: Well, the premise is
actually a patently Greek idea,
00:21:59.88\00:22:04.15
and this is important to
recognize because many of the
00:22:04.15\00:22:07.16
modern evangelical scholars and
theologians who are beginning to
00:22:07.16\00:22:10.36
say, hey, let's reconsider this,
the Clark Pinnocks and the John
00:22:10.36\00:22:13.86
Stocks and the Rob Bells and
others, the EW Fudges, they're
00:22:13.86\00:22:17.87
actually saying, hey, wait
a minute, this is actually the
00:22:17.87\00:22:20.54
importation of a Greek idea into
the biblical text rather than a
00:22:20.54\00:22:24.94
wrestling with what the text
itself actually says, and this
00:22:24.94\00:22:28.98
Greek idea is
called, the technical term is
00:22:28.98\00:22:31.61
anthropological dualism.
00:22:31.61\00:22:33.75
Anthropological, having to
do with man or pertaining to
00:22:33.75\00:22:37.12
mankind, dualism that man is
made up of two parts, the body,
00:22:37.12\00:22:42.66
which is physical and temporal,
and the spirit or soul which is
00:22:42.66\00:22:46.66
immaterial and eternal.
00:22:46.66\00:22:48.33
So, when the body decays and
the bones go back to the ground,
00:22:48.33\00:22:52.33
into the dust, there is an
immaterial spirit, soul, that
00:22:52.33\00:22:57.04
continues, not for a year or two
or ten or 100, but indefinitely.
00:22:57.04\00:23:01.71
So, that's Greek.
00:23:01.71\00:23:02.88
And that idea, the natural
immortality of the soul, as you
00:23:02.88\00:23:06.55
call it, or anthropological
dualism, has been imported into
00:23:06.55\00:23:09.92
the biblical text so that there
are certain passages that seem
00:23:09.92\00:23:13.76
to suggest that that have been
used to support this Greek idea.
00:23:13.76\00:23:17.56
But, in fact, the text that
we've already looked at, the
00:23:17.56\00:23:20.63
John 3:16, the 1 John 3:15,
the Romans chapter 6, verse 23,
00:23:20.63\00:23:24.30
these texts fly in the face of
the idea that we possess natural
00:23:24.30\00:23:30.01
or innate immortality.
00:23:30.01\00:23:32.11
Eternal life, or what we might
call immortality, is granted as
00:23:32.11\00:23:36.51
a gift, a gift for belief in
Jesus Christ, trusting that his
00:23:36.51\00:23:41.65
life, his death, and his
resurrection has done for us
00:23:41.65\00:23:43.59
what we could
never do for ourselves.
00:23:43.59\00:23:45.29
That's bestowed as a gift.
00:23:45.29\00:23:47.49
It's not
natural, it's not innate.
00:23:47.49\00:23:48.69
>>TY: So, are you saying that
immortality does not pertain
00:23:48.69\00:23:55.36
naturally to human beings?
00:23:55.36\00:23:58.10
That it's not something that
we have in ourselves, but rather
00:23:58.10\00:24:03.94
it's something that is bestowed
upon a certain class of human
00:24:03.94\00:24:09.44
beings, namely, those who are
eternally saved, okay, so where
00:24:09.44\00:24:13.85
is immortality?
00:24:13.85\00:24:15.28
Does anybody have immortality?
00:24:15.28\00:24:16.42
>>DAVID: Yes.
00:24:16.42\00:24:17.09
You got the text there, James?
00:24:17.09\00:24:18.05
>>JAMES: No, you got
it, I got another point.
00:24:18.05\00:24:19.72
You make yours.
00:24:19.72\00:24:20.96
>>DAVID: 1 Timothy chapter
6, verse 15, says, which he will
00:24:20.96\00:24:24.69
manifest in his own time,
he who is the blessed and only
00:24:24.69\00:24:29.03
potentate, King of kings and
Lord of lords, speaking of God,
00:24:29.03\00:24:32.33
speaking of Christ.
00:24:32.33\00:24:33.30
Verse 16, who alone has
immortality, dwelling in
00:24:33.30\00:24:38.14
unapproachable light whom no man
has seen nor can see to whom the
00:24:38.14\00:24:41.54
honor and
everlasting power, amen.
00:24:41.54\00:24:43.51
So, this is as
clear as the noonday sun.
00:24:43.51\00:24:45.15
God alone possessed immortality.
00:24:45.15\00:24:47.92
>>TY: Does that
mean nobody else has it?
00:24:47.92\00:24:50.32
>>DAVID: Not naturally.
00:24:50.32\00:24:51.92
>>JAMES: There are hundreds of
verses in the bible that use the
00:24:51.92\00:24:55.36
word soul and not one of
them ever describes the soul as
00:24:55.36\00:25:00.43
immortal, not one.
00:25:00.43\00:25:01.30
>>DAVID: Or eternal.
00:25:01.30\00:25:02.36
>>JAMES: And here's
another point, we looked at the
00:25:02.36\00:25:05.67
bookmarks.
00:25:05.67\00:25:06.77
We looked at Genesis and
Revelation and we looked at the
00:25:06.77\00:25:09.07
first two chapters
and the last two chapters.
00:25:09.07\00:25:10.51
>>TY: In a previous conversation
is what you're referring to.
00:25:10.51\00:25:12.31
>>JAMES: In a
previous conversation.
00:25:12.31\00:25:13.54
We looked at those two chapters
as bookmarks and we said, okay,
00:25:13.54\00:25:15.61
here's the
beginning, here's the end.
00:25:15.61\00:25:17.21
Here's what God created, it
was very good, here's what he's
00:25:17.21\00:25:19.21
gonna have at the end of all
this mess and everything in the
00:25:19.21\00:25:21.35
middle is a mess.
00:25:21.35\00:25:22.55
If you look again at those
two bookmarks, you have, in the
00:25:22.55\00:25:26.39
opening of creation, you have
what's called the tree of life,
00:25:26.39\00:25:30.49
it's in the garden of Eden
and Adam and Eve partake of this
00:25:30.49\00:25:34.10
tree of life and this tree
of life is something that is
00:25:34.10\00:25:37.57
actually taken away from them.
00:25:37.57\00:25:39.30
In other words, there's a
restriction of access to the
00:25:39.30\00:25:42.70
tree of life when they sin.
00:25:42.70\00:25:44.64
Angels are sent to guard
the garden, and this is just
00:25:44.64\00:25:48.48
biblical fact.
00:25:48.48\00:25:49.68
They can't go in and they can't
partake of the tree of life
00:25:49.68\00:25:51.85
because God did not
want sin to be eternalized.
00:25:51.85\00:25:56.82
But as you go through the whole
process, all through the book of
00:25:56.82\00:25:59.52
Old Testament, New Testament,
you get to the book of
00:25:59.52\00:26:02.06
Revelation, guess what happens?
00:26:02.06\00:26:03.26
In Revelation chapter 21, in
Revelation chapter 22, you now
00:26:03.26\00:26:08.03
have access again to the tree of
life in Revelation chapter 22,
00:26:08.03\00:26:10.83
the tree of life.
00:26:10.83\00:26:12.03
>>JEFFREY: One sin is evil.
00:26:12.03\00:26:13.54
Can I read the text that you're
referring to because I think
00:26:13.54\00:26:17.27
that's a foundational point.
00:26:17.27\00:26:19.51
James is breaking down Genesis
3:22, where after the fall, this
00:26:19.51\00:26:26.28
is what we read, and God said,
behold, the man has become like
00:26:26.28\00:26:30.39
one of us, to know good and
evil, and now, lest he put his
00:26:30.39\00:26:33.49
hand and take also of the
tree of life and eat and live
00:26:33.49\00:26:37.03
forever.
00:26:37.03\00:26:38.26
So, just what you were saying,
the reason that that prohibition
00:26:38.26\00:26:43.03
was put in place is so that now
man, as a fallen creature, with
00:26:43.03\00:26:49.37
sin, would not have access
to the ability to perpetuate sin
00:26:49.37\00:26:54.48
and evil.
00:26:54.48\00:26:55.64
>>JAMES: Sin would not be
immortalized and sinners would
00:26:55.64\00:26:56.34
not be immortalized.
00:26:56.34\00:26:57.58
And now we have Revelation 22
and verse 1, and he showed me a
00:26:57.58\00:26:59.31
pure river of the water of life,
clear as crystal, proceeding out
00:26:59.31\00:27:02.35
of the throne of God and the
lamb of God, in the midst of the
00:27:02.35\00:27:05.69
street of it, and on either side
of the river was the tree of
00:27:05.69\00:27:08.29
life.
00:27:08.29\00:27:09.52
So, in Revelation chapter 22,
you have the restoration of the
00:27:09.52\00:27:12.79
tree of life that has 12 manner
of fruit that we could partake
00:27:12.79\00:27:15.56
of.
00:27:15.56\00:27:16.36
It's for the
healing of the nations.
00:27:16.36\00:27:17.60
>>DAVID: And I'm gonna add that
Revelation 21 there, the tree of
00:27:17.60\00:27:20.27
life isn't given until after
Revelation, excuse me, 22, isn't
00:27:20.27\00:27:23.17
given until after Revelation
chapter 20, which describes what
00:27:23.17\00:27:26.71
the bible calls
the second death.
00:27:26.71\00:27:28.21
So, when sin and sinners
are no more, now you have the
00:27:28.21\00:27:32.51
restoration of the tree of life.
00:27:32.51\00:27:35.02
>>TY: Which is to say the
restoration of eternal life or
00:27:35.02\00:27:38.55
immortality.
00:27:38.55\00:27:39.79
>>JAMES: So, it's not that we
would just say, oh, there's no
00:27:39.79\00:27:42.16
immortal soul in the bible,
or only God has immortality.
00:27:42.16\00:27:44.76
We have a picture here, we have
a story, an outline, a picture
00:27:44.76\00:27:47.86
here and we know where eternal
life came from, we know that it
00:27:47.86\00:27:51.07
was restricted after sin and
we know it's gonna be restored
00:27:51.07\00:27:53.94
after sin.
00:27:53.94\00:27:55.17
>>TY: Well, let me just add
a scripture to the one you read
00:27:55.17\00:27:56.74
where Paul says that
God alone has immortality.
00:27:56.74\00:28:01.54
>>DAVID: Okay, and
I've got another one, too.
00:28:01.54\00:28:02.71
>>TY: Okay, 1 Corinthians
chapter 15 explicitly says, in
00:28:02.71\00:28:07.32
verse 53, speaking of those who
are redeemed, the saved, at the
00:28:07.32\00:28:12.82
second coming of Jesus, it says,
for this corruptible must put on
00:28:12.82\00:28:17.86
incorruption and this
mortal shall put on immortality.
00:28:17.86\00:28:24.63
So, here is a very clear
statement, Paul regarding
00:28:24.63\00:28:29.24
himself and it applies
to all of us, we're mortal.
00:28:29.24\00:28:32.54
>>DAVID: Means subject to death.
00:28:32.54\00:28:34.81
>>TY: Subject to death.
00:28:34.81\00:28:35.84
>>JAMES: You
have to read verse 54.
00:28:35.84\00:28:36.95
>>TY: And immortality is
conferred upon the human being
00:28:36.95\00:28:42.08
as a gift at this point and it's
only conferred upon those who
00:28:42.08\00:28:47.62
are the saved, the redeemed.
00:28:47.62\00:28:49.82
What did you
say, James, also read?
00:28:49.82\00:28:51.73
>>JAMES: Verse
54, you have to, yeah.
00:28:51.73\00:28:53.16
So, then, so when this
corruptible, again, emphasizing,
00:28:53.16\00:28:56.70
shall put on incorruption
and this mortal shall put on
00:28:56.70\00:28:59.43
immortality, and I'm gonna
emphasize this, then shall be
00:28:59.43\00:29:02.60
brought to pass, saying,
that is written, death shall be
00:29:02.60\00:29:04.74
swallowed up in victory.
00:29:04.74\00:29:05.51
>>TY: Okay, so immortality.
00:29:05.51\00:29:07.01
>>DAVID: Death is dead.
00:29:07.01\00:29:08.24
>>TY: Immortality is something
that God alone possesses, it's
00:29:08.24\00:29:11.48
not natural, and human beings do
not have it innately naturally,
00:29:11.48\00:29:17.29
and immortality will be bestowed
as a gift upon the redeemed and
00:29:17.29\00:29:23.66
they will live forever
immortally, but there's nowhere
00:29:23.66\00:29:26.93
in the bible, let me just throw
this out as this, okay, there's
00:29:26.93\00:29:31.30
nowhere in the bible where
the word immortality or any
00:29:31.30\00:29:35.14
configuration thereof is applied
to the lost, to the eternally,
00:29:35.14\00:29:40.14
to the wicked.
00:29:40.14\00:29:42.08
>>DAVID: In fact, the
opposite is applied, death.
00:29:42.08\00:29:44.58
Just remember, Spanish,
what's death in Spanish?
00:29:44.58\00:29:47.88
>>JEFFREY: Muerte.
00:29:47.88\00:29:49.12
>>DAVID: Muerte, so, it's the
same in the Latin, morte, like
00:29:49.12\00:29:51.32
mortuary.
00:29:51.32\00:29:52.85
So, mortal, immortal, so if
you're immortal, you are not
00:29:52.85\00:29:57.03
subject to death.
00:29:57.03\00:29:58.26
If you're mortal, you're a dying
creature or you're a nondying
00:29:58.26\00:30:02.00
creature.
00:30:02.00\00:30:03.23
Scripture says, we'll go back to
John 3:16 just briefly to remind
00:30:03.23\00:30:05.67
ourselves, for God so loved
the world that he gave his only
00:30:05.67\00:30:07.94
begotten Son that whosoever
believes in him wouldn't die.
00:30:07.94\00:30:11.57
Well, if you can't die or don't
die or you won't die, you're
00:30:11.57\00:30:14.48
an...
00:30:14.48\00:30:15.08
>>JAMES: Immortal.
00:30:15.08\00:30:16.21
>>DAVID: Immortal creature.
00:30:16.21\00:30:17.45
We've said, established here,
that's something that God alone
00:30:17.45\00:30:19.55
possesses innately or naturally.
00:30:19.55\00:30:21.88
Let me give you another text.
00:30:21.88\00:30:23.22
Romans chapter 2, beginning in
verse 5, but in accordance with
00:30:23.22\00:30:26.96
your hardness and impenitent
heart, you, speaking of the
00:30:26.96\00:30:31.09
wicked, are treasuring up for
yourself wrath against the day
00:30:31.09\00:30:34.36
of wrath and the revelation of
the righteous judgement of God,
00:30:34.36\00:30:37.10
who will render to each
according to his deeds, but
00:30:37.10\00:30:39.00
eternal life to those who
by patient continuance in doing
00:30:39.00\00:30:43.61
good seek for glory,
honor, and immortality.
00:30:43.61\00:30:48.31
So, if you're
seeking for immortality.
00:30:48.31\00:30:52.11
>>TY: You don't have it.
00:30:52.11\00:30:52.95
>>DAVID: It's
because you don't have it.
00:30:52.95\00:30:53.62
God has it.
00:30:53.62\00:30:54.75
We're seeking for it, and
according to the text, it's
00:30:54.75\00:30:57.52
sought for by reposing our faith
in God, by trusting in Jesus,
00:30:57.52\00:31:04.59
having come and died in our
place, having lived the life
00:31:04.59\00:31:07.03
that we didn't live, having died
the death that we deserved and
00:31:07.03\00:31:08.66
raised to newness of life.
00:31:08.66\00:31:09.86
>>TY: So, when a human being
dies, and the body decays, is
00:31:09.86\00:31:16.04
there a soul or something that
survives physical death for all
00:31:16.04\00:31:26.35
eternity?
00:31:26.35\00:31:27.55
No, the bible is very clear,
there is no survival of a soul,
00:31:27.55\00:31:31.85
regardless of a person's whether
a person is saved or lost, there
00:31:31.85\00:31:37.63
is no soul that survives for all
eternity into the future of the
00:31:37.63\00:31:42.80
wicked, only those who are
among the redeemed, receive
00:31:42.80\00:31:47.64
immortality as a gift from God.
00:31:47.64\00:31:49.60
Is that accurate?
00:31:49.60\00:31:50.37
>>DAVID: It's
extremely accurate.
00:31:50.37\00:31:51.84
Okay, so, in answer of the
question, what is the soul?
00:31:51.84\00:31:54.81
And just to further what Ty
is saying here, we described the
00:31:54.81\00:31:57.78
Greek idea of anthropological
dualism, that man is body and
00:31:57.78\00:32:01.75
spirit, temporal and eternal,
what the bible teaches is what
00:32:01.75\00:32:05.45
you might call
anthropological monism.
00:32:05.45\00:32:07.69
In other words, one, mono, and
that is, that mankind is a unity
00:32:07.69\00:32:13.80
of body and spirit and when
those are divorced, when they're
00:32:13.80\00:32:17.67
disassociated, that's it, and
that's what we find in the bible
00:32:17.67\00:32:22.77
over and over again, he breathed
his last, he gave up the ghost,
00:32:22.77\00:32:25.97
he, because when the breath
stops, just as in Genesis, when
00:32:25.97\00:32:29.54
the breath started, the breath
of life is breathed into the
00:32:29.54\00:32:31.45
nostrils.
00:32:31.45\00:32:32.65
When that stops, it's not as
though just the physicality of
00:32:32.65\00:32:35.55
the man or the woman stops,
he, as a being, ceases to exist.
00:32:35.55\00:32:40.69
>>JEFFREY: Can I read that?
00:32:40.69\00:32:41.96
>>DAVID: Please.
00:32:41.96\00:32:43.16
>>JEFFREY: Genesis 3:19 shows
us the rewind, what happens at
00:32:43.16\00:32:47.76
death, so we know, let me lead
into that first, that in Genesis
00:32:47.76\00:32:52.03
2:7, the bible says that the
Lord God formed man of the dust
00:32:52.03\00:32:57.87
of the ground and breathed into
his nostrils the breath of life
00:32:57.87\00:33:01.84
and man became a living soul.
00:33:01.84\00:33:04.25
>>DAVID: He didn't
have a soul, he was a soul.
00:33:04.25\00:33:07.48
>>JEFFREY: He wasn't given a
soul, he became a soul, right?
00:33:07.48\00:33:10.22
And then, so that's the play
button, that's a, he came into
00:33:10.22\00:33:14.09
being.
00:33:14.09\00:33:15.29
At death, all that happens
is somebody presses the rewind
00:33:15.29\00:33:20.50
button and that is Genesis 3,
verse 19, in the sweat of your
00:33:20.50\00:33:24.57
face, you shall eat bread until
you return to the ground, but I
00:33:24.57\00:33:29.14
wanna emphasize this, until you,
you, it doesn't say your soul,
00:33:29.14\00:33:33.74
until you, Adam, your holistic
whatever, you, your youness,
00:33:33.74\00:33:40.28
returns to the ground for out of
it you were taken, for dust you
00:33:40.28\00:33:46.39
are and to dust
you shall return.
00:33:46.39\00:33:50.19
So, basically,
the rewind button.
00:33:50.19\00:33:52.73
So, to bring the human race into
existence, there was the dust of
00:33:52.73\00:33:58.17
the ground and there was,
God breathed life into this new
00:33:58.17\00:34:02.37
being, new creature, and at
death, all that happens is the
00:34:02.37\00:34:05.47
rewind.
00:34:05.47\00:34:06.27
>>DAVID: And
those two make a one.
00:34:06.27\00:34:08.34
Those two don't remain a two.
00:34:08.34\00:34:10.48
That's dualism, that's
monism, and when those two are
00:34:10.48\00:34:14.02
disassociated, the rewind button
of, what was verse 19, Genesis
00:34:14.02\00:34:17.52
3:19?
00:34:17.52\00:34:18.19
Then, Adam, you cease to exist.
00:34:18.19\00:34:21.29
Now, God can recreate you,
which, hallelujah, that's what
00:34:21.29\00:34:25.79
the word resurrection means,
to be raised from that state of
00:34:25.79\00:34:29.53
death.
00:34:29.53\00:34:30.47
>>JEFFREY: Which is
what will take place.
00:34:30.47\00:34:31.70
So, God, in some sense, and
we don't know this, we can't get
00:34:31.70\00:34:33.90
into the psychology of how this
works, maybe you guys know the
00:34:33.90\00:34:36.50
secret or mystery of how
this works, but somehow, God
00:34:36.50\00:34:39.11
preserves the character, the
personhood of the individual and
00:34:39.11\00:34:45.48
somehow, during resurrection
in the end, God restores that.
00:34:45.48\00:34:50.09
>>TY: And I think scripture
explicitly says that, two
00:34:50.09\00:34:53.76
scriptures to compare in
Ecclesiastes chapter 9, verses 5
00:34:53.76\00:34:57.99
and 6, for the living know, that
word refers to consciousness,
00:34:57.99\00:35:03.20
the living know that they will
die, but the dead know nothing.
00:35:03.20\00:35:08.74
They have no
consciousness, in other words.
00:35:08.74\00:35:10.54
The dead know nothing and they
have no more reward, for the
00:35:10.54\00:35:16.51
memory of them is forgotten,
verse 6, also their love, their
00:35:16.51\00:35:20.82
hatred, their
envy have now perished.
00:35:20.82\00:35:25.35
And nevermore do they have a
share in anything that is done
00:35:25.35\00:35:28.89
under the sun.
00:35:28.89\00:35:29.86
There's a lot there.
00:35:29.86\00:35:31.09
Point number one, the living are
conscious of the fact that they
00:35:31.09\00:35:35.03
will die.
00:35:35.03\00:35:36.23
But once a person dies, the dead
person knows nothing, zilch,
00:35:36.23\00:35:40.74
there is no conscious thought,
and then he goes a step further
00:35:40.74\00:35:44.64
and says, their love is
perished, which wouldn't be the
00:35:44.64\00:35:47.38
case if, when you die, you
go straight to heaven, because
00:35:47.38\00:35:49.28
certainly, your love
would be alive toward God.
00:35:49.28\00:35:50.65
>>DAVID: So, you're emotionally
00:35:50.65\00:35:52.35
-- >>TY: Hatred, perished?
00:35:52.35\00:35:54.75
Well, if you've gone straight
to hell when you die, certainly,
00:35:54.75\00:35:57.39
there's gonna be rage and hatred
and anger in your heart that is
00:35:57.39\00:35:59.69
perpetuated toward God.
00:35:59.69\00:36:01.46
>>DAVID: Which, I have a point
about that, but keep going.
00:36:01.46\00:36:02.76
>>TY: Okay, so, love is
perished, hatred is perished,
00:36:02.76\00:36:05.56
envy has now perished, but this
is interesting, nevermore do
00:36:05.56\00:36:09.93
they have a sharing
anything done under the sun.
00:36:09.93\00:36:13.07
And this connects with
what is sometimes referred to as
00:36:13.07\00:36:17.77
spiritualism.
00:36:17.77\00:36:19.47
Because the idea that the soul
survives the body in a conscious
00:36:19.47\00:36:24.78
state of some kind then prepares
the way for the idea that human
00:36:24.78\00:36:31.22
beings who have died do have a
share in what is done under the
00:36:31.22\00:36:35.69
sun.
00:36:35.69\00:36:36.93
You have this idea that deceased
relatives return to speak with,
00:36:36.93\00:36:42.10
to commune with, to interact
with, in everything from séances
00:36:42.10\00:36:45.90
to Ouija boards to just a person
alone in their home after a
00:36:45.90\00:36:50.41
loved one has perished and
having an encounter with a voice
00:36:50.41\00:36:55.58
or an apparition of some kind.
00:36:55.58\00:36:58.18
This scripture says that there
is no consciousness after death
00:36:58.18\00:37:02.75
and therefore, the individual
has no share in anything done
00:37:02.75\00:37:08.36
under the sun, that
is, on planet earth.
00:37:08.36\00:37:10.16
But I said there were two
scriptures in Ecclesiastes to
00:37:10.16\00:37:12.89
compare.
00:37:12.89\00:37:14.10
The next one is in Ecclesiastes
chapter 12 and verse 7 and this
00:37:14.10\00:37:18.50
one is fascinating and this gets
to what Jeffrey was raising, it
00:37:18.50\00:37:22.80
says here that the dust returns
to the earth as it was and the
00:37:22.80\00:37:28.31
spirit returns
to God, who gave it.
00:37:28.31\00:37:31.51
Jeffrey, you posed the question,
you said, well, we know that God
00:37:31.51\00:37:35.38
preserves the individual
identity, the personality, the
00:37:35.38\00:37:42.09
personhood, the character of
a person when they die so that
00:37:42.09\00:37:45.69
that person can be restored
to conscious existence in a new
00:37:45.69\00:37:49.36
body at the resurrection.
00:37:49.36\00:37:51.07
Well, check this out, this
scripture tells us exactly what
00:37:51.07\00:37:54.10
happens.
00:37:54.10\00:37:55.27
This scripture says that
the dust, that is the body, the
00:37:55.27\00:37:58.37
physical dimension, basically,
it says that it returns to the
00:37:58.37\00:38:01.61
earth, it decays.
00:38:01.61\00:38:02.58
It just, it rots in
the earth, it's compost.
00:38:02.58\00:38:06.41
But the spirit
returns, in what form?
00:38:06.41\00:38:10.05
Well, he told us earlier, not in
the conscious form, no love, no
00:38:10.05\00:38:12.95
hatred, nothing
like that going on.
00:38:12.95\00:38:14.39
It returns to God.
00:38:14.39\00:38:15.59
This is what I think happens.
00:38:15.59\00:38:17.59
I think that a person lives
their life and this scripture is
00:38:17.59\00:38:22.66
telling us that there is
what you called personhood,
00:38:22.66\00:38:24.97
personality, character,
the composite identity of the
00:38:24.97\00:38:28.77
individual, and God, I like your
word, preserves that data so
00:38:28.77\00:38:36.21
that at the resurrection, a new
body can be created and God can
00:38:36.21\00:38:40.58
take the hard drive, as it were,
of that data, that information
00:38:40.58\00:38:44.79
that composed the personality
and the identity, and just slap
00:38:44.79\00:38:48.59
it back into a new
model, so to speak, a new body.
00:38:48.59\00:38:51.86
>>DAVID: Incorruptible.
00:38:51.86\00:38:53.09
>>TY: Incorruptible, immortal
body, that's why Paul spoke of,
00:38:53.09\00:38:55.23
Paul was a tentmaker, he made
tents and tents were houses in
00:38:55.23\00:39:00.94
his time, and he said he was
looking forward to putting off
00:39:00.94\00:39:03.51
this tent and
moving into a new tent.
00:39:03.51\00:39:06.91
>>DAVID: 2 Corinthians 5.
00:39:06.91\00:39:08.14
>>TY: So, he's basically saying,
my body constitutes the house in
00:39:08.14\00:39:12.41
which I live and I'm looking
forward to the immortal body,
00:39:12.41\00:39:17.65
but I'll be the same person.
00:39:17.65\00:39:19.19
>>DAVID: You know, we actually,
thank you for that, Ty, that's
00:39:19.19\00:39:21.96
beautiful.
00:39:21.96\00:39:23.19
We actually have language that
communicates that we feel, at
00:39:23.19\00:39:25.79
some level, a
disassociation from our body.
00:39:25.79\00:39:28.06
We do this a lot.
00:39:28.06\00:39:29.50
We'll say things like, oh, yeah,
my arm, I went to throw, but my
00:39:29.50\00:39:32.50
arm betrayed me.
00:39:32.50\00:39:33.34
>>TY: Who's the me?
00:39:33.34\00:39:34.57
>>DAVID: Yeah, if your arm is
you, who is the arm betraying?
00:39:34.57\00:39:39.77
We say these things a lot.
00:39:39.77\00:39:41.51
Just the other day, I was
watching a skateboard video, I
00:39:41.51\00:39:44.35
love to skateboard, and there
was a skateboarder by the name
00:39:44.35\00:39:46.58
of Trevor Gaulden and he was
trying to do this line and he
00:39:46.58\00:39:49.05
kept falling and kept falling,
trying to do these different
00:39:49.05\00:39:50.82
tricks, and he said, listen
to what he said, because he only
00:39:50.82\00:39:54.06
had so much time to get this
trick done, it was a contest,
00:39:54.06\00:39:55.99
and then he said, well, I'll be
able to make it, I don't know if
00:39:55.99\00:40:00.50
my body will.
00:40:00.50\00:40:01.66
See, we're communicating that
we understand that there is an
00:40:01.66\00:40:06.13
usness that is
not our physicality.
00:40:06.13\00:40:10.91
And the illustration I like to
use is say you were involved in
00:40:10.91\00:40:12.71
a car accident and you lost
your right arm so you became an
00:40:12.71\00:40:14.98
amputee.
00:40:14.98\00:40:16.04
Or maybe you lost both
arms, okay, so now, you are
00:40:16.04\00:40:18.08
considerably less by volume, but
you're still James, I'm still
00:40:18.08\00:40:24.75
David, you're still Jeffrey.
00:40:24.75\00:40:25.92
So, when God takes that
hard drive, as you said, or that
00:40:25.92\00:40:29.29
data, that makes up the youness
of Jeffrey and the youness of
00:40:29.29\00:40:32.86
James and the youness of Ty and
the meness of David, and injects
00:40:32.86\00:40:35.63
it into a new body, well,
that's still me, and I'll be, my
00:40:35.63\00:40:38.43
biceps, I know that's
something hard to imagine.
00:40:38.43\00:40:41.14
They will probably be
even bigger than they are now.
00:40:41.14\00:40:47.08
>>JAMES: I can't imagine that.
00:40:47.08\00:40:49.24
>>TY: You guys, we're a little
bit over, we have to take a
00:40:49.24\00:40:51.58
break, but we have a whole,
we have a third segment, so this
00:40:51.58\00:40:55.68
conversation isn't over yet.
00:40:55.68\00:40:57.39
>>JAMES: Good, because
I've got an idea I wanna share.
00:40:57.39\00:40:59.32
[Music]
00:40:59.32\00:41:09.03
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00:41:10.20\00:41:13.57
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00:41:13.57\00:41:17.01
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00:41:17.01\00:41:21.48
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00:41:21.48\00:41:24.21
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00:41:55.08\00:41:57.85
[Music]
00:41:57.85\00:42:03.75
>>TY: This has been a pretty
great discussion so far, there's
00:42:04.59\00:42:08.12
no doubt, however, that we have
raised questions that anybody
00:42:08.12\00:42:13.63
who's biblically literate
is saying, but what about this
00:42:13.63\00:42:16.10
text, what about this
one, this one, and this one?
00:42:16.10\00:42:18.17
There are verses, let's not
pretend that they don't exist,
00:42:18.17\00:42:20.97
there are biblical passages
that are challenging, that are
00:42:20.97\00:42:25.27
difficult.
00:42:25.27\00:42:26.51
So, I think in all fairness to
the subject and to anybody who
00:42:26.51\00:42:31.58
is studying and looking into
this subject, that we should
00:42:31.58\00:42:34.08
deal with those
difficult passages.
00:42:34.08\00:42:35.68
So, I'll first begin by pointing
out that in scripture, there are
00:42:35.68\00:42:43.12
passages that use words
like everlasting and eternal to
00:42:43.12\00:42:48.43
describe the fire
that comes upon the wicked.
00:42:48.43\00:42:53.60
Alright, for example, we have
Matthew chapter 25 and verse 46,
00:42:53.60\00:43:02.01
and it says here, and
these, speaking of the lost, the
00:43:02.01\00:43:06.05
wicked, will go away into
everlasting punishment, but the
00:43:06.05\00:43:10.22
righteous into eternal life.
00:43:10.22\00:43:12.02
So, this is using the word
everlasting in the Greek, it
00:43:12.02\00:43:18.09
could also just be
translated just eternal, eternal
00:43:18.09\00:43:20.73
punishment.
00:43:20.73\00:43:22.46
There are other scriptures, for
example, we have in Revelation
00:43:22.46\00:43:27.37
chapter 20, where the word
eternal is used to describe the
00:43:27.37\00:43:32.07
fire that comes upon the wicked.
00:43:32.07\00:43:33.98
This one says eternal
punishment, that one says
00:43:33.98\00:43:36.18
eternal fire.
00:43:36.18\00:43:37.38
Okay, so, I'd like us to
just spend a moment wrapping our
00:43:37.38\00:43:40.02
minds around this
idea of eternal, okay?
00:43:40.02\00:43:42.68
For example, when we read, in
Jonah chapter 1, verses 17, and
00:43:42.68\00:43:51.13
then chapter 2, verse 6, we have
Jonah describing his experience
00:43:51.13\00:43:57.17
in the belly of the whale, and
he says, quote unquote, I was in
00:43:57.17\00:44:02.24
the belly of the whale forever,
and then he turns around in the
00:44:02.24\00:44:06.94
next breath and he says, I was
in the belly of the whale for 3
00:44:06.94\00:44:10.95
days and 3 nights.
00:44:10.95\00:44:12.45
So, is there a
contradiction here?
00:44:12.45\00:44:14.85
Or are we dealing with a mode of
speech, a usage of language in
00:44:14.85\00:44:20.86
scripture that needs to
be taken into consideration.
00:44:20.86\00:44:24.16
Another example would be Exodus
chapter 21 verse 6, where a
00:44:24.16\00:44:28.06
slave, a servant, who choses
after his time of indentured
00:44:28.06\00:44:34.30
servitude is over, chooses to
continue serving his master by
00:44:34.30\00:44:40.44
voluntary choice, when that's
done, Exodus 21 verse 6 says
00:44:40.44\00:44:44.65
that he can choose to enter into
a relationship with his master
00:44:44.65\00:44:49.15
in which he can
serve him forever.
00:44:49.15\00:44:52.15
Now, we know from the text, and
just from logic, that it's not
00:44:52.15\00:44:57.39
saying that he will serve that
master eternally, we know the
00:44:57.39\00:45:02.03
text is telling us that forever
means, as long as his life
00:45:02.03\00:45:05.43
lasts.
00:45:05.43\00:45:07.24
Jonah is in the belly of the
whale as long as the experience
00:45:07.24\00:45:11.14
lasts.
00:45:11.14\00:45:12.61
I was on an
airplane recently forever.
00:45:12.61\00:45:16.64
It certainly felt like forever,
and I'm using the word in the
00:45:16.64\00:45:20.25
sense, I'm exaggerating
for effect, is exactly what's
00:45:20.25\00:45:23.75
happening there.
00:45:23.75\00:45:24.92
>>DAVID: And not even just
an exaggeration, but the word
00:45:24.92\00:45:27.89
forever or everlasting or
eternal, in more, forever and
00:45:27.89\00:45:32.39
everlasting, in these contexts,
modify the thing, the nature of
00:45:32.39\00:45:37.00
the thing that
they're describing.
00:45:37.00\00:45:38.53
>>TY: Say it again?
00:45:38.53\00:45:39.77
>>DAVID: Okay, so these words
modify the nature of the thing
00:45:39.77\00:45:42.80
they're describing.
00:45:42.80\00:45:43.84
>>TY: So, fire, if it's eternal.
00:45:43.84\00:45:45.67
>>DAVID: Okay, let me give what
I think is a better example.
00:45:45.67\00:45:49.18
So, if the bible says that the
mountains are from everlasting
00:45:49.18\00:45:52.88
to everlasting, as it says
in the Old Testament, right?
00:45:52.88\00:45:55.45
You have established the hills.
00:45:55.45\00:45:56.58
They are from
everlasting to everlasting.
00:45:56.58\00:45:58.15
Okay, that's true, but the bible
also says that the rocks will
00:45:58.15\00:46:01.32
melt.
00:46:01.32\00:46:02.42
So, those mountains will
last as long as mountains last.
00:46:02.42\00:46:05.69
The experience in the belly of
the fish, that experience, the
00:46:05.69\00:46:11.53
word forever modifies that
kind of an experience, so here's
00:46:11.53\00:46:14.40
where people fall
into a tricky thing.
00:46:14.40\00:46:15.80
A slave is a slave forever and
Jonah's in the belly of the fish
00:46:15.80\00:46:20.11
forever and the mountains last
from everlasting to everlasting,
00:46:20.11\00:46:23.04
or forever, or the
fire lasts forever.
00:46:23.04\00:46:24.91
Okay, if you take that same
word, forever, or eternal, or
00:46:24.91\00:46:28.82
everlasting, and you apply it to
God, well, it really does mean
00:46:28.82\00:46:33.29
throughout the ceaseless,
eternal ages, because the nature
00:46:33.29\00:46:35.39
of God, the kind of being that
God is, is a being that lasts
00:46:35.39\00:46:39.46
throughout unending ages.
00:46:39.46\00:46:41.33
So, when that word is
applied to God, it means this.
00:46:41.33\00:46:44.87
When that word forever is
applied to an airplane ride or
00:46:44.87\00:46:47.97
to a mountain or to slavery
or to the time in the belly of a
00:46:47.97\00:46:50.47
fish, it means, as
long as that lasts.
00:46:50.47\00:46:52.91
What it technically means
is without interruption until
00:46:52.91\00:46:56.58
susation.
00:46:56.58\00:46:57.41
It's not
interrupted until it stops.
00:46:57.41\00:47:01.08
And where people are getting
fuzzy is where they say, well,
00:47:01.08\00:47:03.52
God is everlasting, but this is
also everlasting, okay, but God
00:47:03.52\00:47:05.89
is a different kind of being.
00:47:05.89\00:47:07.69
>>TY: Yeah, I think there's
more, oh, what were you gonna
00:47:07.69\00:47:10.29
say?
00:47:10.29\00:47:11.39
>>JAMES: Well, I was just
gonna look at Jude chapter 1.
00:47:11.39\00:47:13.60
>>TY: Yeah, that's
exactly where I was gonna go.
00:47:13.60\00:47:14.73
>>JAMES: And verse 7.
00:47:14.73\00:47:15.60
>>DAVID: As an
example of eternal fire.
00:47:15.60\00:47:17.83
>>JAMES: Well, I like this
because this is actually giving
00:47:17.83\00:47:20.87
us a biblical example, something
that happened historically,
00:47:20.87\00:47:24.61
something that
happened biblically.
00:47:24.61\00:47:25.91
It's talking about Sodom and
Gomorrah here in Jude verse 7, I
00:47:25.91\00:47:30.35
say verse 7 this time because
Jude just has one chapter, even
00:47:30.35\00:47:32.51
as Sodom and Gomorrah and the
cities about them and like man
00:47:32.51\00:47:36.32
are giving themselves over
to fornication and going after
00:47:36.32\00:47:38.55
strange flesh are set forth
as an example, suffering the
00:47:38.55\00:47:41.66
vengeance of eternal fire.
00:47:41.66\00:47:43.76
Now, we know that Sodom and
Gomorrah was destroyed by fire,
00:47:43.76\00:47:47.46
but we know that that
fire is not still burning.
00:47:47.46\00:47:50.97
>>TY: But here it's
called eternal fire.
00:47:50.97\00:47:53.10
>>JAMES: Right, so the point
you're making, biblically sound
00:47:53.10\00:47:57.01
point you're making right here
is verified in history, it's
00:47:57.01\00:48:01.84
verified in biblical history
at least, we recognize that the
00:48:01.84\00:48:06.25
eternal fire is a fire that came
down upon Sodom and Gomorrah as
00:48:06.25\00:48:11.35
a judgement and that
that judgement was an eternal
00:48:11.35\00:48:14.26
judgement.
00:48:14.26\00:48:15.09
>>DAVID: The
consequences were eternal.
00:48:15.09\00:48:16.59
>>JAMES: The consequences
were eternal, the damnation is
00:48:16.59\00:48:18.76
eternal, there's no turning
around from that consequence.
00:48:18.76\00:48:22.33
>>TY: Okay, throw this scripture
in for Jude 7, 2 Peter chapter 2
00:48:22.33\00:48:27.77
verse 6, again is speaking of
Sodom and Gomorrah and it says
00:48:27.77\00:48:31.47
that the cities of Sodom and
Gomorrah were turned into ashes,
00:48:31.47\00:48:36.91
condemned to eternal
destruction, or to destruction.
00:48:36.91\00:48:41.68
So, here, you have 2 passages,
you have Jude saying, Sodom and
00:48:41.68\00:48:45.52
Gomorrah, eternal fire, you
have Peter saying, Sodom and
00:48:45.52\00:48:48.89
Gomorrah, ashes, destruction.
00:48:48.89\00:48:51.19
Is there a contradiction?
00:48:51.19\00:48:52.99
Do you choose
based on your theology?
00:48:52.99\00:48:55.36
I like this one better, I like
this one better, no, you just
00:48:55.36\00:48:58.67
look at the site on planet earth
where Sodom and Gomorrah were
00:48:58.67\00:49:03.14
once situated,
yeah, and it's not there.
00:49:03.14\00:49:06.44
It's not burning.
00:49:06.44\00:49:07.64
>>JEFFREY: I've actually
been there and it's not burning.
00:49:07.64\00:49:09.44
>>DAVID: Okay, so, go back to a
text you've already quoted, Ty,
00:49:09.44\00:49:11.98
the end of Matthew chapter
25, when Jesus says to the lost,
00:49:11.98\00:49:14.78
these will go away to
everlasting punishment, but the
00:49:14.78\00:49:19.25
righteous into eternal life.
00:49:19.25\00:49:21.02
Okay, so here we have eternal,
defining life, well that is
00:49:21.02\00:49:24.16
unending, because it's
describing the nature of the
00:49:24.16\00:49:26.86
thing.
00:49:26.86\00:49:27.60
Life.
00:49:27.60\00:49:28.80
Life is the opposite of death,
but everlasting punishment is
00:49:28.80\00:49:33.07
saying, that's a punishment
with everlasting consequences.
00:49:33.07\00:49:36.37
We know this because the new
heaven and the new earth is not
00:49:36.37\00:49:41.78
a place of fiery,
brimstone, torturous.
00:49:41.78\00:49:44.38
>>JAMES: And that is so key.
00:49:44.38\00:49:46.35
David, that is so key,
because notice what it says in
00:49:46.35\00:49:49.05
Revelation 14,
notice what it says here.
00:49:49.05\00:49:50.85
The third angel follows with a
loud voice, warning against the
00:49:50.85\00:49:54.49
worship of the beast and his
image and his mark, verse 9, and
00:49:54.49\00:49:57.69
then it says, in verse 10,
the same, those who received the
00:49:57.69\00:50:00.80
mark of the beast, the same
shall drink of the wine of the
00:50:00.80\00:50:04.57
wrath of God, which is poured
out without mixture of his
00:50:04.57\00:50:07.00
indignation and he shall
be tormented with fire and
00:50:07.00\00:50:10.61
brimstone in the presence of the
holy angels and in the presence
00:50:10.61\00:50:14.54
of the lamb and the smoke of
their torment ascends up forever
00:50:14.54\00:50:18.48
and ever.
00:50:18.48\00:50:19.71
So, we understand the forever
and ever part, but what we don't
00:50:19.71\00:50:22.52
understand about hell, often, is
that it actually takes place in
00:50:22.52\00:50:26.76
the presence of the holy angels
and the presence of the lamb.
00:50:26.76\00:50:31.09
In other words, there's a
description in Revelation 15 and
00:50:31.09\00:50:34.30
it's also in Isaiah 33, I
believe, that talks about the
00:50:34.30\00:50:38.30
sea of glass mingled with fire.
00:50:38.30\00:50:40.50
The bible through and
through talks about how God is a
00:50:40.50\00:50:43.97
consuming fire to sin and it
asks the question in Isaiah 33,
00:50:43.97\00:50:48.18
who's going to be able to stand
in the everlasting burnings?
00:50:48.18\00:50:51.45
And the answer is given in
Malachi chapter 4, we're told
00:50:51.45\00:50:55.55
there that the
wicked won't be able to.
00:50:55.55\00:50:57.32
Let me just read the verse,
it says here that you will tread
00:50:57.32\00:51:00.82
down the wicked for they shall
be ashes under the soles of your
00:51:00.82\00:51:04.39
feet in the day that I do
this, saith the Lord of Hosts.
00:51:04.39\00:51:07.86
>>TY: So, the wicked are ashes.
00:51:07.86\00:51:08.73
>>JAMES: Just like
Sodom and Gomorrah.
00:51:08.73\00:51:10.17
So, Sodom and Gomorrah is an
example, 2 Peter says, of what's
00:51:10.17\00:51:13.77
going to happen to the wicked.
00:51:13.77\00:51:14.97
They are
actually going to perish.
00:51:14.97\00:51:17.07
>>DAVID: Well said.
00:51:17.07\00:51:18.31
>>JEFFREY: That's awesome, you
were just in Revelation 14, and
00:51:18.31\00:51:21.28
the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever, and I
00:51:21.28\00:51:25.71
encountered a passage in
Isaiah 34, which, you all will
00:51:25.71\00:51:30.39
recognize, that actually, that
that language is borrowed from
00:51:30.39\00:51:35.72
the Old Testament, and the
picture presented in the book of
00:51:35.72\00:51:38.39
Revelation, for the end, the
judgment at the end, hellfire,
00:51:38.39\00:51:41.83
the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever, when
00:51:41.83\00:51:45.17
you look at Isaiah chapter 34,
in verse 8, it is the day of the
00:51:45.17\00:51:49.17
Lord's vengeance, the year
of recompense for the cause of
00:51:49.17\00:51:52.34
Zion, its streams shall be
turned into pitch and its dust
00:51:52.34\00:51:57.38
into brimstone.
00:51:57.38\00:51:59.01
Its land shall become burning
pitch, it shall not be quenched
00:51:59.01\00:52:03.18
night or day, its
smoke shall ascend forever.
00:52:03.18\00:52:09.86
>>TY: From
generation to generation.
00:52:09.86\00:52:11.36
>>JEFFREY: None shall pass
through it forever and ever.
00:52:11.36\00:52:15.73
That's the exact same language
used in Revelation chapter 14,
00:52:15.73\00:52:19.93
which just demonstrates what
you've all been iterating here,
00:52:19.93\00:52:23.24
that the language being
used here is one of finality.
00:52:23.24\00:52:26.68
>>DAVID: That's a
great way to say it.
00:52:26.68\00:52:27.94
>>JEFFREY: It's describing
a picture where the effects of
00:52:27.94\00:52:31.38
what's taking place are
forever, are everlasting.
00:52:31.38\00:52:34.38
Just like in this passage here,
where it's speaking of Edom, the
00:52:34.38\00:52:39.85
judgment on Edom.
00:52:39.85\00:52:41.09
>>TY: Well, how about this, the
devil himself, Satan, is spoken
00:52:41.09\00:52:47.96
of in Ezekiel chapter 28 and God
is addressing him directly and
00:52:47.96\00:52:51.97
says, I will bring forth a fire
from the midst of you and it,
00:52:51.97\00:52:56.71
the fire, will devour you and I,
God, will bring you, Satan, to
00:52:56.71\00:53:02.08
ashes upon the earth and
never shall you be anymore.
00:53:02.08\00:53:09.65
>>JAMES: Oh, praise God.
00:53:09.65\00:53:10.89
>>TY: In other words, the devil,
according to this passage, will
00:53:10.89\00:53:14.69
cease to exist.
00:53:14.69\00:53:15.86
The devil will be ashes
under the feet of the righteous.
00:53:15.86\00:53:20.40
>>JEFFREY: But that's not
the popular picture, the popular
00:53:20.40\00:53:21.56
picture is the
devil is in hell...
00:53:21.56\00:53:22.86
>>TY: Presiding over, yeah.
00:53:22.86\00:53:25.37
>>JEFFREY: Or, by victim of
God, and his life is prolonged
00:53:25.37\00:53:29.60
through the seasons.
00:53:29.60\00:53:30.84
>>TY: How about this, Obadiah 15
and 16 says of the wicked, they
00:53:30.84\00:53:35.08
shall be as though
they had never been.
00:53:35.08\00:53:38.71
As if they had never existed.
00:53:38.71\00:53:40.12
>>DAVID: Okay, so, exactly,
Jeffrey, just a moment ago, used
00:53:40.12\00:53:43.95
a great word, he
used the word finality.
00:53:43.95\00:53:46.89
For us in this realm that we
live in right now, death is a
00:53:46.89\00:53:50.06
finality.
00:53:50.06\00:53:51.26
If somebody close to you dies,
they don't go to their house
00:53:51.26\00:53:53.50
anymore, they're not sleeping in
their bed anymore, they're not
00:53:53.50\00:53:55.46
driving in their car anymore,
there's a, follow this, a
00:53:55.46\00:53:59.00
temporary finality.
00:53:59.00\00:54:00.50
In other words, there's a sense
in which that's done, but it's
00:54:00.50\00:54:03.34
only temporary because,
according to scripture, there
00:54:03.34\00:54:04.91
will be a resurrection.
00:54:04.91\00:54:06.14
But the bible doesn't speak of
just one death, the bible speaks
00:54:06.14\00:54:09.68
of a second death.
00:54:09.68\00:54:11.45
So, if a death is final, in the
temporary sense, scripture says
00:54:11.45\00:54:15.38
the second death is
final in an eternal sense.
00:54:15.38\00:54:18.99
The second death is the
death from which there is no
00:54:18.99\00:54:21.86
resurrection.
00:54:21.86\00:54:23.09
Right, this is Revelation 20,
this is Revelation, where's the
00:54:23.09\00:54:25.66
second death on such the
second death has no power?
00:54:25.66\00:54:28.03
>>TY: Revelation 20 verse 6 and
Revelation chapter 2 verse 14.
00:54:28.03\00:54:33.07
>>DAVID: Right, so, you have
this idea of a second death, you
00:54:33.07\00:54:36.37
die the second death, from which
there is no resurrection, and
00:54:36.37\00:54:40.01
there's the actual finality.
00:54:40.01\00:54:41.68
When sin and
sinners are no more.
00:54:41.68\00:54:43.01
The last thing I wanna say and
I'll turn it over to you guys
00:54:43.01\00:54:44.78
here, Ty said something
a moment ago that was huge.
00:54:44.78\00:54:47.32
He said, if people go into the
fires of hell, they are cursing,
00:54:47.32\00:54:50.22
they're filled with rage,
they're filled with anger,
00:54:50.22\00:54:51.92
they're whatever, you
know, they're conscious beings,
00:54:51.92\00:54:55.22
they're, if that's the case,
then sin is eternal, sin is
00:54:55.22\00:55:00.60
immortal.
00:55:00.60\00:55:01.73
There will always be people
blaspheming the name of God,
00:55:01.73\00:55:03.77
yelling against God,
yelling against, I mean, really?
00:55:03.77\00:55:07.27
>>JEFFREY:
There's no finality there.
00:55:07.27\00:55:08.24
>>DAVID: There's no
finality, there's no end.
00:55:08.24\00:55:09.87
There is a perennial, eternal
witness to hatred against God,
00:55:09.87\00:55:14.68
blasphemy against God,
rebellion against God, no.
00:55:14.68\00:55:17.88
The bible says, the last enemy
to be destroyed is death, sin
00:55:17.88\00:55:23.22
and sinners are no more, and God
will give us a new heaven and a
00:55:23.22\00:55:27.42
new earth wherein dwells
righteousness and peace and joy
00:55:27.42\00:55:31.83
and.
00:55:31.83\00:55:32.43
No, that's it, go.
00:55:32.43\00:55:34.63
>>TY: Have you guys
considered Revelation 21?
00:55:34.63\00:55:39.90
It's kind of a roundabout way
at coming at the question, but
00:55:39.90\00:55:43.10
after the new heavens and the
new earth are created, it says
00:55:43.10\00:55:47.81
God will wipe away every tear
from their eyes and there shall
00:55:47.81\00:55:50.95
be no more death nor sorrow nor
crying, there shall be no more
00:55:50.95\00:55:57.99
pain, no more pain.
00:55:57.99\00:56:01.89
>>JAMES: True or false?
00:56:01.89\00:56:02.42
True or false?
00:56:02.42\00:56:03.66
>>TY: So, if there is someplace
somewhere in the universe where
00:56:03.66\00:56:08.30
eternal souls are writhing in
pain, it cannot be said there is
00:56:08.30\00:56:12.30
no more pain, because in
fact, there is ongoing eternal,
00:56:12.30\00:56:16.34
nonstop pain.
00:56:16.34\00:56:17.57
>>JAMES: Every single Christian
on planet earth needs to look at
00:56:17.57\00:56:20.78
that verse and needs
to pray about that verse.
00:56:20.78\00:56:22.68
>>DAVID: That's right, and
let's take it to the next level.
00:56:22.68\00:56:23.98
Jesus was only on the
cross for a very short time.
00:56:23.98\00:56:28.12
He was in the
tomb for a short time.
00:56:28.12\00:56:29.65
He came out of the tomb.
00:56:29.65\00:56:30.75
Now, the question is, did
Jesus pay the wages of sin?
00:56:30.75\00:56:34.06
>>TY: This is so important.
00:56:34.06\00:56:36.93
>>DAVID: If Jesus didn't pay the
wages of sin, there is no plan
00:56:36.93\00:56:41.03
of salvation,
there is no redemption.
00:56:41.03\00:56:42.73
The whole New Testament, the
whole bible falls flat on its
00:56:42.73\00:56:45.23
face.
00:56:45.23\00:56:46.47
So, now think about this, if the
wages of sin is really eternal,
00:56:46.47\00:56:50.81
unending, everlasting, conscious
torment in a fiery place, that
00:56:50.81\00:56:56.68
didn't happen to Jesus.
00:56:56.68\00:56:57.91
Even if you say as some do that
Jesus went into the fiery abyss
00:56:57.91\00:57:02.02
for a time, well, even
so, that's not eternal.
00:57:02.02\00:57:04.52
So, did Jesus
pay the wages of sin?
00:57:04.52\00:57:08.06
Or didn't he pay
the wages of sin?
00:57:08.06\00:57:09.29
He did and the wages of sin is
not eternal, conscious torment
00:57:09.29\00:57:13.60
in the fiery depths, the wages,
say it with me, of sin is death.
00:57:13.60\00:57:17.97
>>TY: And that's what we
see Jesus experiencing on our
00:57:17.97\00:57:20.44
behalf.
00:57:20.44\00:57:21.67
>>DAVID: He died not just, and
this is the part that Mel Gibson
00:57:21.67\00:57:24.34
got wrong in the Passion of the
Christ, I never saw it, but he
00:57:24.34\00:57:26.68
got it wrong, it's the part that
most of us get wrong, when we
00:57:26.68\00:57:29.88
think about the cross, we
think, oh, look at the pain.
00:57:29.88\00:57:31.88
Look at the physical, look
at the nails, look at the cross,
00:57:31.88\00:57:35.25
look at the crown of
thorns, look at the blood.
00:57:35.25\00:57:39.05
It's far more than that,
it's this, it's separation.
00:57:39.05\00:57:43.29
Sin causes separation
from God, this causes death.
00:57:43.29\00:57:47.83
Why have you forsaken me?
00:57:47.83\00:57:49.80
Jesus is not merely
dying the physical death of the
00:57:49.80\00:57:53.44
corruptible humanity,
Jesus is dying the second death.
00:57:53.44\00:57:57.44
He is experiencing true hell,
separation from his Father.
00:57:57.44\00:58:02.01
Jesus truly paid
the wages of sin.
00:58:02.01\00:58:06.05
>>TY: Seems to me like the
biblical picture of the final
00:58:06.05\00:58:09.78
demise of the wicked, if really
delved into and understood,
00:58:09.78\00:58:13.79
vindicates the character of God,
it beautifies the character of
00:58:13.79\00:58:18.49
God.
00:58:18.49\00:58:19.73
We can say, God, even in the way
that you deal with your enemies,
00:58:19.73\00:58:23.16
you will be just.
00:58:23.16\00:58:24.33
I mean, we don't regard any
earthly government as a just
00:58:24.33\00:58:29.34
government that
inflicts torture.
00:58:29.34\00:58:31.91
How could we possibly
expect anything less of God?
00:58:31.91\00:58:37.38
God is good, God is love, and
therefore, God will deal justly
00:58:37.38\00:58:43.42
and mercifully, even with his
enemies, even with those who are
00:58:43.42\00:58:48.02
eternally lost.
00:58:48.02\00:58:49.72
[Music]
00:58:49.72\00:58:52.79
eternally lost.
00:58:52.79\00:58:53.26