[Music]
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[Music]
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in which the evolutionary theory
is pervasive in all of western
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culture and it's
pervading the whole world.
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We happen to be four
individuals, sitting around this
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table, who are creationists.
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The question that we want to
tackle right now is can we take
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the biblical account
of creation seriously?
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Because, increasingly,
our culture does not take it
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seriously, and for many people,
the very idea is laughable.
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You really believe that God
created the world in which we
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live?
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Certainly, Darwinian
evolution is unimpeachable.
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It is the way we
came into existence.
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And then, we've got this strange
place in between where we have
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creationists on the one hand who
believe in the existence of a
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God who created, we've got
materialistic evolutionists on
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the other hands who say,
there is no God, there was no
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creation, it's all natural
selection and survival of the
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fittest, and then, we have
all of these individuals in the
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middle who are saying, we
believe in God, we also believe
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in evolution and evolution
is the mechanism, the means by
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which God, that's
called theistic evolution.
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So, we are increasingly in a
minority of thinkers who reject
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Darwinian evolution as the large
idea that explains the existence
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of the universe, the
world, and ourselves.
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>>DAVID: Well, not so much the
existence of the universe, but
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the existence of the origin
and the diversity of life, of
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biology, and you were exactly
correct, Ty, in what you said
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there.
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I read a book a number of years
ago that suggested, correctly,
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that evolution is the most
influential idea ever produced
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by science.
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Now, that's a big claim to make.
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You think about the
various scientific theories from
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eutonian physics to Einsteinian
physics to the theory of
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electromagnetism, et cetera.
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There've been a lot of
scientific ideas that have been
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brought to bear and many of
these have given us things like
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iPads and iPhones and
cars that can drive, et cetera.
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But this book that I was reading
said that all of those ideas
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have to take a backseat in terms
of just, not even prestige, but
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influence to Darwinian evolution
because it is not stayed safely
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ensconced within the biological
discipline of, or within the
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academic discipline of biology.
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It's, there's evolutionary
psychology, there's evolutionary
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sociology, there's evolutionary
cosmology, even, there's
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evolutionary theology.
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>>JEFFREY: And it becomes a wide
explanatory scope into every
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field.
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>>DAVID: Well, it's suggested
that it has a wide explanatory
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scope, and to be fair, it is
a reasonably compelling way of
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viewing the universe.
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In other words, if you take God
out of the picture, if you say
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at the outset, you know, what's
called, as a presupposition,
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that there is no God.
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As you make your presupposition
that the universe is Godless
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-- >>TY: How are
you gonna explain it?
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>>DAVID: Exactly, and this is
where evolution and the various
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evolutionary influenced
academic disciplines become very
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persuasive because you need some
means to create biological life,
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to create social structures,
to create the world that we see
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around us and the Darwinian
model is reasonably persuasive.
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It's compelling.
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>>TY: Yeah, one example,
David, would be, you mentioned
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evolutionary psychology.
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I subscribe to a magazine called
Psychology Today and one of the
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things I've noticed over and
over again in this magazine is
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every once in a while, 2 or 3
times a year, it looks like to
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me, there is an article that is
trying to pose the question, and
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one of them, very blatantly pose
the question, why do men cheat?
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>>DAVID: I think you leant me
one of those articles and I read
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it.
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>>TY: Yeah, why do men
extramarital affairs, and over
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and over again, the answer
boils down to, well, we're
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evolutionary animals and the
urge to reproduce is so strong
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that expecting a man to be
faithful to marriage vows is
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simply not reasonable.
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Men are made for mating with the
strongest of the genetic options
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around them in
order to produce progeny.
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So, don't expect your husband to
maintain marital fidelity, it's
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just not gonna happen, we're
evolutionary animals and there's
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really nothing of a moral
nature about it, so get over it.
00:05:02.90\00:05:07.77
>>JEFFREY: And that makes sense
if the foundation was true, that
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makes perfect sense,
it's a logical sequence.
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>>JAMES: I just read a, not only
read a blog, but I actually put
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it on my facebook page that was
written by, I think his name was
00:05:16.68\00:05:20.02
Matt Walsh, and he wrote a
blog titled Is Monogamy Natural?
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Is Monogamy Natural?
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And the blog that he writes
is in response to a professor
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that's taking issue with
him, he's a Christian, he's a
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believer in various moral
standards that go along with
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Christianity and even
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creation, including, but
not limited to, monogamy, and in
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this particular blog, a
university professor has written
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to him and said, this is an
antiquated idea, exactly what
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you're saying, it's
an antiquated idea, it's
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unrealistic, monogamy doesn't
work, it's known to not work,
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you're living in the dark
ages, catch up with the times.
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And wow, in this blog,
Matt Walsh just has his way,
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logically, on an evidentiary
basis, I mean, he really has his
00:06:04.33\00:06:09.03
way with this professor with
the various arguments that the
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professor made, and my take
away from it was, as I put on my
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Facebook page there, I said, I
guess I'm living a myth because
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I've been living in a happy,
you know, connected, beautiful,
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wonderful, mutually supportive
marriage for almost 17 years
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now, with my wife Violeta that
has been truly and wonderfully,
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blissfully, happily, monogamous.
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So, here somebody's saying, hey
that can't happen, that doesn't
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work, that's not, whatever,
and I'm saying, oh contraire mon
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friar.
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[Laughter]
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>>TY: It's working for me.
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>>DAVID: Quite the opposite,
it's working quite well for us.
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So, but the point here is this,
is that the word that I've used
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in the past is the word
ubiquitous, it means it's
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everywhere, it is absolutely
saturative and evolutionary
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thinking is like an acid that
is eating away various academic
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disciplines.
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In other words, it's infecting
those disciplines, whether it's
00:07:01.22\00:07:03.25
sociology, psychology, theology,
biology, it's just everywhere,
00:07:03.25\00:07:07.79
it's ubiquitous, but
here's a very interesting thing.
00:07:07.79\00:07:09.76
I read another book, a great
book, I've actually read it like
00:07:09.76\00:07:13.46
5 times, it's
just such a good book.
00:07:13.46\00:07:16.10
You've read it as well,
The Devil's Delusion by David
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Berlinski.
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Highly recommend it.
00:07:18.83\00:07:20.64
But in that book, one of the
things that Dr. Berlinski brings
00:07:20.64\00:07:24.87
out, he's a secular Jew, he's
not writing from a Christian
00:07:24.87\00:07:27.01
perspective, he's not
even writing from a religious
00:07:27.01\00:07:28.81
perspective.
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He's just basically saying,
yeah, this scientific, allegedly
00:07:30.01\00:07:34.12
scientific atheism doesn't get
the traction that, it doesn't
00:07:34.12\00:07:37.12
deserve the intellectual
prestige that many are giving
00:07:37.12\00:07:39.82
it, the Dockins's and the
Harrises and others of the
00:07:39.82\00:07:41.92
world.
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Well, here's the point that he
makes, he says, in the case of
00:07:43.16\00:07:45.93
evolution, there has never been
a scientific theory that has
00:07:45.93\00:07:48.50
been so widely touted and
accepted by the scientific
00:07:48.50\00:07:51.47
community and so widely
disbelieved by everybody else.
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There are still huge swaths,
particularly in America, but all
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over the world, who deny, if you
ask them two questions, number
00:08:00.84\00:08:04.65
one, did God have his hand
in it, there's an overwhelming
00:08:04.65\00:08:07.05
percentage of, for example,
especially in America, in other
00:08:07.05\00:08:11.75
countries, it's similar, not all
countries, but did God have a
00:08:11.75\00:08:15.19
hand in it?
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Yes.
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I don't know, it's
like 60-70%, it's very high.
00:08:16.69\00:08:19.23
And then, you say, has, was the
earth created recently, say in
00:08:19.23\00:08:23.40
the last 50,000 years?
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Depending on how exactly
they word the question, and in
00:08:24.57\00:08:27.14
America, the statistics that
are associated with that, even
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lately, 2010, 2011,
2012, is still close to 50%.
00:08:29.57\00:08:34.11
So, you have this disconnect
between what we're being told
00:08:34.11\00:08:38.01
from the ivory tower, the
intellectual elite, scientific
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elite, and what the average
person, you know, down here is
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saying.
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That doesn't, I
don't think I'm a monkey.
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I don't think I'm an
evolved monkey, I don't think my
00:08:49.22\00:08:51.56
children are evolved
monkeys, there's something about
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evolution that is, and I think
you'll appreciate this, that's
00:08:53.66\00:08:57.03
irreverent.
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Now, what I mean by that is,
it's not just electromagnetism.
00:08:58.23\00:09:02.87
It's dehumanizing.
00:09:02.87\00:09:04.11
It's not just electromagnetism,
it's not quantum physics or any
00:09:04.11\00:09:08.88
other such thing.
00:09:08.88\00:09:09.78
It is saying, in
fact, you're a naked ape.
00:09:09.78\00:09:12.48
In fact, there is only a
difference of degree, not of
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substance, not of, it's not a
qualitative difference between
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you and any other
animal in the animal kingdom.
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>>TY: Which immediately puts us
in the realm again of morality
00:09:23.89\00:09:27.40
because it's absolutely
inconsistent to truly subscribe
00:09:27.40\00:09:34.30
to the evolutionary theory and
all it implies and then to have
00:09:34.30\00:09:39.77
some kind of
advocacy of morality
00:09:39.77\00:09:43.78
-- >>DAVID: A high morality.
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>>TY: A high morality, there's
no way that the evolutionary
00:09:44.98\00:09:48.45
theory can actually put forth
and consistently maintain even
00:09:48.45\00:09:53.96
the idea of altruism.
00:09:53.96\00:09:55.52
Does a man love his wife?
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Does a wife love her husband?
00:10:00.36\00:10:03.57
Evolutionary biology,
evolutionary science can only
00:10:03.57\00:10:06.77
reach so high as to say,
the best thing that's happening
00:10:06.77\00:10:10.51
there is that it's
in his best interest
00:10:10.51\00:10:13.94
-- >>JEFFREY:
Propagation of his...
00:10:13.94\00:10:15.14
>>TY: Yeah, it's in his best
interest to be in relation to
00:10:15.14\00:10:17.25
her.
00:10:17.25\00:10:18.45
If you wanna call that love,
call that love, but really, it's
00:10:18.45\00:10:20.45
just a sophisticate
form of selfishness.
00:10:20.45\00:10:23.08
>>DAVID: We had a whole
conversation where we talked
00:10:23.08\00:10:25.82
about the herd mentality and the
difference between the kind of
00:10:25.82\00:10:29.32
morality in a best case scenario
that evolution could give us and
00:10:29.32\00:10:33.29
biblical morality and you'll
recall that the difference was,
00:10:33.29\00:10:35.86
in the best case scenario,
evolutionarily speaking, it
00:10:35.86\00:10:40.37
would be, I will do something
good for you because, in some
00:10:40.37\00:10:43.97
way, either directly or in some
circuitous way, it redounds to
00:10:43.97\00:10:48.41
my benefit.
00:10:48.41\00:10:49.61
Where biblical morality is,
I will do something for you to
00:10:49.61\00:10:53.21
benefit you.
00:10:53.21\00:10:54.45
>>TY: That's the whole point
of Richard Dawkins, I think, his
00:10:54.45\00:10:57.75
first best seller, and the title
of the book itself tells us a
00:10:57.75\00:11:01.59
lot, the book is
called The Selfishness Gene.
00:11:01.59\00:11:04.09
>>DAVID: The Selfish Gene.
00:11:04.09\00:11:05.33
>>TY: The Selfish Gene, and the
point of the book is basically
00:11:05.33\00:11:07.76
to say that human beings
operate the highest law that is
00:11:07.76\00:11:12.10
operatable in human experience
and in all of living creation is
00:11:12.10\00:11:21.04
self-preservation.
00:11:21.04\00:11:22.04
That's as high as it goes.
00:11:22.04\00:11:23.41
There's nothing beyond that,
whatever looks like love beyond
00:11:23.41\00:11:28.82
that
00:11:28.82\00:11:29.35
-- >>DAVID: Or altruism.
00:11:29.35\00:11:30.59
>>TY: Altruism, whatever looks
like it is just that, it looks
00:11:30.59\00:11:32.49
like it, but it's not, it's just
a more sophisticated expression
00:11:32.49\00:11:37.83
of survival of the fittest.
00:11:37.83\00:11:39.96
That's all it can be.
00:11:39.96\00:11:41.13
>>JEFFREY: Another expression
or articulation of this is Ravi
00:11:41.13\00:11:44.93
Zacharias, I guess, popularized
this whole sequence between
00:11:44.93\00:11:49.44
origin, meaning, morality, and
destiny, but the concept there
00:11:49.44\00:11:55.68
is, what we're getting at
is origin denotes value, right?
00:11:55.68\00:12:00.32
Something's origin
determines its value.
00:12:00.32\00:12:04.29
I always think of, if you're
in the mall and you're walking
00:12:04.29\00:12:06.96
around in the mall and you see a
shirt, you may think, that's the
00:12:06.96\00:12:09.22
ugliest shirt I've ever seen in
my life, and you go look at the
00:12:09.22\00:12:11.93
price tag.
00:12:11.93\00:12:13.63
>>JAMES: David was wearing
one of those the other day.
00:12:13.63\00:12:15.56
[Laughter]
00:12:15.56\00:12:18.70
>>JEFFREY: I didn't wanna say
that, I just wanted to imply it.
00:12:18.70\00:12:20.14
>>DAVID: Hey, I'm ready for
a picnic, I got the tablecloth,
00:12:20.14\00:12:22.60
I'm wearing.
00:12:22.60\00:12:23.84
>>JEFFREY: You are and I don't
know what the label here is, but
00:12:23.84\00:12:25.47
with this kind of shirt, if you
saw it in the mall or some other
00:12:25.47\00:12:29.68
kind of shirt, you'd be blown
away when you see the price tag
00:12:29.68\00:12:32.58
and you'd think, who in their
right mind would pay that much
00:12:32.58\00:12:36.99
money for that shirt?
00:12:36.99\00:12:39.29
And then, when
you see the label...
00:12:39.29\00:12:41.19
>>TY: Origin.
00:12:41.19\00:12:42.89
>>JEFFREY: Armani
Exchange or whatever, right?
00:12:42.89\00:12:44.89
So, basically, the point there
is, by looking at the label, by
00:12:44.89\00:12:48.20
its origin, you can determine
the value of a thing, right?
00:12:48.20\00:12:52.60
So, just translate that into
social Darwinism, translate that
00:12:52.60\00:12:57.21
into society and with the world
view of our origins as being
00:12:57.21\00:13:04.25
descended from lower life
forms and so forth and so forth.
00:13:04.25\00:13:06.75
You run into a huge wall when
you now try to deduce from that
00:13:06.75\00:13:11.15
any sense of meaning or inherent
value, or like you're saying,
00:13:11.15\00:13:17.96
morality, yeah.
00:13:17.96\00:13:19.66
>>DAVID: And then,
destiny is off the table.
00:13:19.66\00:13:21.03
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, if you stripped
the foundation upon which all
00:13:21.03\00:13:23.87
sense of meaning,
purpose and all that is
00:13:23.87\00:13:26.74
-- >>DAVID: All sense of the
things that we humans take for
00:13:26.74\00:13:28.87
granted.
00:13:28.87\00:13:29.24
>>TY: Right.
00:13:29.24\00:13:30.34
>>DAVID: Every culture,
religious inclinations, moral
00:13:30.34\00:13:34.58
inclinations, a sense of
purpose, of meaning, of destiny,
00:13:34.58\00:13:38.68
of being part of something
larger, what we would call
00:13:38.68\00:13:42.48
broadly religious ideas, have
arisen spontaneously in every
00:13:42.48\00:13:47.49
culture in human history.
00:13:47.49\00:13:49.92
In other words, we have a sense,
you look out at the stars, you
00:13:49.92\00:13:54.83
have a sense, you stand at
the ocean and you see the waves
00:13:54.83\00:13:57.40
breaking, the beautiful sunset,
there is this sense, and this
00:13:57.40\00:14:01.17
isn't just an
American modern sense.
00:14:01.17\00:14:05.91
Cultures are almost
unanimously theistic.
00:14:05.91\00:14:10.31
Whether it's a polytheism
or it's a pantheism or it's a
00:14:10.31\00:14:14.62
monotheism, whatever.
00:14:14.62\00:14:16.18
>>JEFFREY: It's
theistic nonetheless.
00:14:16.18\00:14:17.32
>>DAVID: It's the sense
that there's something else out
00:14:17.32\00:14:18.69
there, there's something bigger,
there's something more and this
00:14:18.69\00:14:21.69
is why I used the term earlier
about evolution being somewhat
00:14:21.69\00:14:24.59
irreverent, because what it does
is it lays the axe to the root
00:14:24.59\00:14:26.90
of that tree.
00:14:26.90\00:14:28.10
Let me just say it this way, if
evolution is true, if Darwinian
00:14:28.10\00:14:30.73
evolution is true, in the
biological realm, therefore, it
00:14:30.73\00:14:34.20
would also begin to be true
in these other realms, in other
00:14:34.20\00:14:36.30
words, these would be legitimate
applications, then what we're
00:14:36.30\00:14:39.41
doing here at this table
would be a waste of time.
00:14:39.41\00:14:42.51
Talking about the bible, talking
about God, talking about Jesus,
00:14:42.51\00:14:45.55
talking about a higher meaning,
a higher purpose, all of that,
00:14:45.55\00:14:48.55
this is, this is balderdash.
00:14:48.55\00:14:51.15
>>JEFFREY: Because
there's no purpose.
00:14:51.15\00:14:52.39
I always throw at our students
at Arise the question, with a
00:14:52.39\00:14:56.86
show of hands, how many of
you have ever brushed your teeth
00:14:56.86\00:15:00.76
with a hammer?
00:15:00.76\00:15:01.96
Nobody raises their hand.
00:15:01.96\00:15:03.57
>>DAVID: That
would be most of them.
00:15:03.57\00:15:04.80
>>JEFFREY: And then I'll say,
conversely, how many of you have
00:15:04.80\00:15:07.10
ever nailed a nail to the
wall with your toothbrush?
00:15:07.10\00:15:10.34
It would never occur to you.
00:15:10.34\00:15:12.54
And I ask the question, why?
00:15:12.54\00:15:14.21
Because a hammer wasn't created
or designed or made for that
00:15:14.21\00:15:20.88
purpose.
00:15:20.88\00:15:21.98
In other words, you can
determine whether something's
00:15:21.98\00:15:24.12
being used rightly or wrongly by
looking at it from what was it
00:15:24.12\00:15:33.66
created for.
00:15:33.66\00:15:34.73
You see what I'm saying?
00:15:34.73\00:15:35.93
But if there was no purpose for
which it was created, you could
00:15:35.93\00:15:38.83
never say,
you're using that wrong.
00:15:38.83\00:15:40.57
You're using that wrongly.
00:15:40.57\00:15:43.17
To which I would
say, what do you mean?
00:15:43.17\00:15:44.61
So, if we've descended
from lower life forms, how can
00:15:44.61\00:15:50.01
somebody say, you're living
wrong, your action was wrong.
00:15:50.01\00:15:53.92
>>TY: You shouldn't have raped
that woman, you shouldn't have
00:15:53.92\00:15:56.05
abused that child.
00:15:56.05\00:15:56.85
>>JEFFREY: I would say, why?
00:15:56.85\00:15:57.89
I would say, why?
00:15:57.89\00:15:59.09
>>TY: On what basis do you
hole be accountable for anything
00:15:59.09\00:16:01.26
>>JEFFREY: The word should've
implies an ought and that
00:16:01.26\00:16:03.96
implies that there was some kind
of intention or purpose outside
00:16:03.96\00:16:09.50
of myself behind my creation.
00:16:09.50\00:16:11.97
And so, that's where I
think it meets, right there.
00:16:11.97\00:16:14.94
>>TY: I think what we're saying
so far in this conversation is
00:16:14.94\00:16:19.41
that we have, basically, two
stories that are being told in
00:16:19.41\00:16:23.18
our world, basically two
stories, there are variations,
00:16:23.18\00:16:25.91
but two stories
that are being told.
00:16:25.91\00:16:28.02
There is what we could call the
creation account of reality and
00:16:28.02\00:16:32.85
there's the Darwinian
evolution account of reality.
00:16:32.85\00:16:36.69
The creation account of reality
naturally equates to human
00:16:36.69\00:16:42.43
dignity.
00:16:42.43\00:16:43.67
It's a high view of the human
being, created in the image of
00:16:43.67\00:16:48.24
God.
00:16:48.24\00:16:49.47
The Darwinian evolution view,
that storyline is demeaning to
00:16:49.47\00:16:57.08
human dignity, it's an insult to
human dignity because it offers
00:16:57.08\00:17:02.68
no basis for a human being
rising above, merely operating
00:17:02.68\00:17:08.19
by animal instincts and
doing whatever it is that the
00:17:08.19\00:17:12.13
secretion of chemicals in the
body dictates that you should
00:17:12.13\00:17:18.17
do.
00:17:18.17\00:17:18.93
We're just
highly evolved animals.
00:17:18.93\00:17:20.57
Think, for example, of Darwin's
book on the origin of species.
00:17:20.57\00:17:23.17
We know that book by the
title, On the Origin of Species.
00:17:23.17\00:17:24.97
Not a lot of people, and
you can't even hardly buy it,
00:17:24.97\00:17:29.98
nowadays, with the full original
title that Darwin gave to the
00:17:29.98\00:17:32.98
book.
00:17:32.98\00:17:36.92
The book had a really long
title that was expressive of the
00:17:36.92\00:17:37.45
theory in all its glory.
00:17:37.45\00:17:41.02
>>DAVID:
Philosophical significance.
00:17:41.02\00:17:43.53
>>TY: Yeah.
00:17:43.53\00:17:44.76
And the title of the book was
On the Origin of Species or, and
00:17:44.76\00:17:50.27
the title goes on to say, the
Preservation of Favored Races in
00:17:50.27\00:17:57.21
the Struggle for Life.
00:17:57.21\00:17:58.57
So, there's something
going on in Darwin's thinking.
00:17:58.57\00:18:02.04
What's going on there?
00:18:02.04\00:18:03.24
He's essentially saying that
species have evolved through a
00:18:03.24\00:18:08.38
process of natural selection,
and some races, that is, certain
00:18:08.38\00:18:13.19
categories of life, not
just humans, but at all levels,
00:18:13.19\00:18:17.69
certain races or categories
of living organisms are favored
00:18:17.69\00:18:23.60
above others, so
there's a favoritism going on.
00:18:23.60\00:18:27.70
There's a self-preservation
that's going on.
00:18:27.70\00:18:29.57
And you come all the way up to
the human situation, and this is
00:18:29.57\00:18:32.67
fascinating, Darwin's cousin,
Sir Francis Gulten, is the
00:18:32.67\00:18:37.61
father of what is
referred to as eugenics.
00:18:37.61\00:18:41.12
Eugenics is a Greek word that
means well born, or high born,
00:18:41.12\00:18:45.59
and it was from Darwin's theory
of evolution that postulated the
00:18:45.59\00:18:50.16
idea of inequality, essentially,
that there are favored
00:18:50.16\00:18:57.37
-- >>DAVID: Races.
00:18:57.37\00:18:58.60
>>TY: Races or favored, favored
aspects of life, I don't know
00:18:58.60\00:19:05.14
what the word I'm looking
for is, those favored aspects of
00:19:05.14\00:19:09.74
life are to be
eliminated by the stronger.
00:19:09.74\00:19:15.38
So, then you have eugenics, and
then you have World War II where
00:19:15.38\00:19:19.79
the Nazi scientists and
physicians take the eugenics
00:19:19.79\00:19:24.93
idea, which hails from Darwinian
evolution and they develop their
00:19:24.93\00:19:28.90
Arian view that, well, yes,
indeed, there are higher life
00:19:28.90\00:19:33.70
forms, there are favored races
and it's perfectly okay for the
00:19:33.70\00:19:38.17
higher, perceived higher races
to eliminate the lower in order
00:19:38.17\00:19:44.28
to lead the human race to higher
and higher and higher levels of
00:19:44.28\00:19:48.72
evolution.
00:19:48.72\00:19:49.88
So, the idea is completely
to contrary to human dignity.
00:19:49.88\00:19:54.32
It's difficult to imagine
treating others with true
00:19:54.32\00:19:59.86
dignity within a strict
evolutionary framework of
00:19:59.86\00:20:06.23
thinking.
00:20:06.23\00:20:07.24
We have to take a
break, but when we come back
00:20:07.24\00:20:09.34
-- >>DAVID: James,
you were loud in that one.
00:20:09.34\00:20:10.54
Did you say anything?
00:20:10.54\00:20:13.01
>>JAMES: I
didn't get a chance to.
00:20:13.01\00:20:14.14
>>DAVID: No, I did hear
you twice, you said, mm.
00:20:14.14\00:20:17.18
And I appreciated that.
00:20:17.18\00:20:18.75
>>JEFFREY: Let's
take a break, Ty.
00:20:18.75\00:20:19.65
>>TY: When we come
back, we'll get James.
00:20:19.65\00:20:21.12
[Music]
00:20:21.12\00:20:27.49
[Music]
00:20:27.49\00:20:28.32
a.com.
00:20:28.46\00:20:31.86
I am so excited about this
website because you're about to
00:20:31.86\00:20:35.26
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00:20:35.26\00:20:39.90
and videos with your family,
friends, and anybody else on the
00:20:39.90\00:20:43.47
planet who has
access to a computer.
00:20:43.47\00:20:47.08
Digma is a Greek word.
00:20:47.08\00:20:48.54
It basically means, to show or
to reveal something by means of
00:20:48.54\00:20:52.51
a pattern or an
example of some kind.
00:20:52.51\00:20:54.52
It's the second half of the word
paradigma, from which we get the
00:20:54.52\00:20:58.82
English word
paradigm, as in paradigm shift.
00:20:58.82\00:21:02.82
And so, what you're going to
find at digma.com is a growing
00:21:02.82\00:21:06.26
library of short videos
and transcripts dealing with
00:21:06.26\00:21:09.50
paradigms and
fundamental questions.
00:21:09.50\00:21:12.10
What's the meaning of life?
00:21:12.10\00:21:14.37
What is our origin and
destiny as human beings?
00:21:14.37\00:21:18.61
What happens when we die?
00:21:18.61\00:21:20.88
Does God exist or are we
alone in this vast universe?
00:21:20.88\00:21:24.98
Why is there so much evil
and suffering in our world?
00:21:24.98\00:21:29.05
An estimated 70% of Americans
have a computer right in their
00:21:29.05\00:21:34.82
home and stay in touch with
family and friends by email, and
00:21:34.82\00:21:38.96
more than 400 million people
are active on Facebook, and 5
00:21:38.96\00:21:43.93
million new users are
signing up every week.
00:21:43.93\00:21:48.04
We are literally in the midst of
a communications revolution of
00:21:48.04\00:21:52.81
massive proportion.
00:21:52.81\00:21:54.48
This is granting the
gospel direct and easy access to
00:21:54.48\00:21:59.48
millions upon millions of homes
and hearts, and that's what
00:21:59.48\00:22:05.19
digma.com is all about.
00:22:05.19\00:22:07.56
It's a tool for leading
our family and friends on an
00:22:07.56\00:22:11.19
exciting paradigm shift by
revealing the truth of God's
00:22:11.19\00:22:15.33
creative power and his
incredibly beautiful character
00:22:15.33\00:22:19.43
in contrast to our world's
popular misconceptions about who
00:22:19.43\00:22:25.21
God is.
00:22:25.21\00:22:26.31
[Music]
00:22:26.31\00:22:38.15
[Music]
00:22:38.15\00:22:43.09
[Music]
00:22:43.09\00:22:44.26
ing
00:22:44.36\00:22:47.46
the two different storylines,
the story of creation versus the
00:22:47.46\00:22:51.93
story of evolution and we saw or
we at least began to explore the
00:22:51.93\00:22:56.00
idea that one communicates
dignity, it invests the human
00:22:56.00\00:23:01.41
being with dignity and the other
storyline doesn't even have the
00:23:01.41\00:23:07.08
raw materials from which to
ascribe dignity to human beings.
00:23:07.08\00:23:12.42
And I think that one way we
could think about this is with
00:23:12.42\00:23:18.36
the Declaration of Independence.
00:23:18.36\00:23:21.56
>>JAMES: I was thinking about
it, and I'm glad you pointed to
00:23:21.56\00:23:23.97
me because David mentioned that
I didn't say anything on the
00:23:23.97\00:23:26.30
last program, so this is great.
00:23:26.30\00:23:27.54
>>TY: So, James,
could you say something?
00:23:27.54\00:23:29.24
>>JAMES: Well, this is what
I like about the Declaration of
00:23:29.24\00:23:31.34
Independence, it is a stark
contrast to the nation of power
00:23:31.34\00:23:35.54
that you mentioned earlier,
which seemed to be an outworking
00:23:35.54\00:23:39.45
of Darwinism, the eugenics, the
Nazis, the Germans, and I say
00:23:39.45\00:23:46.49
the Germans, I should say Nazi
Germany because it's not the
00:23:46.49\00:23:48.22
Germans it's Nazi Germany.
00:23:48.22\00:23:49.39
It's the direction they
took, which was based upon this
00:23:49.39\00:23:51.76
evolution model, and in
the United States, you have a
00:23:51.76\00:23:55.43
completely different direction,
and so you have really, in the
00:23:55.43\00:23:58.27
post of these two developments
1776, Declaration of
00:23:58.27\00:24:02.64
Independence and Darwinism,
you have two conflicts that take
00:24:02.64\00:24:06.44
place.
00:24:06.44\00:24:07.58
It leads to two conflicting
views and two conflicting
00:24:07.58\00:24:10.01
nations.
00:24:10.01\00:24:11.15
And the opposite is in
these words, and these are just
00:24:11.15\00:24:14.45
beautiful words from the
Declaration of Independence, we
00:24:14.45\00:24:17.39
hold these truths to be
self-evident, that all men are
00:24:17.39\00:24:20.86
created, emphasis, equal.
00:24:20.86\00:24:22.79
You listening, Jeffrey?
00:24:22.79\00:24:23.76
>>JEFFREY: I'm listening.
00:24:23.76\00:24:24.86
>>JAMES: I know you could
speak this from memory, right?
00:24:24.86\00:24:27.00
I'm reading it.
00:24:27.00\00:24:28.20
And they are endowed by their
creator, there it is again, with
00:24:28.20\00:24:30.93
certain unalienable rights, that
among these are life, liberty,
00:24:30.93\00:24:37.47
and the pursuit of happiness.
00:24:37.47\00:24:39.17
There's no way I can say that
without someone else saying it
00:24:39.17\00:24:40.78
also, because we're sitting
here and we, our whole lives are
00:24:40.78\00:24:45.11
based upon this, and we know,
I see it in the bible, it's in
00:24:45.11\00:24:48.58
Revelation, we have these
00:24:48.58\00:24:49.65
-- >>DAVID: That's a
thoroughly biblical statement.
00:24:49.65\00:24:51.92
>>JAMES: Yes, these are lamblike
principles, these are principles
00:24:51.92\00:24:54.92
that come, that
find their origin in God.
00:24:54.92\00:24:58.79
>>DAVID: They find
their origin in creation.
00:24:58.79\00:25:00.96
And I love the fact that when
Jefferson's writing this and the
00:25:00.96\00:25:05.43
others are assisting in their,
you know, sort of evaluation and
00:25:05.43\00:25:08.87
amendments to it before it's
finally put to the, you know,
00:25:08.87\00:25:12.17
burgeoning new country,
this inclusion of self-evident.
00:25:12.17\00:25:17.21
>>TY: Self-evident, yeah.
00:25:17.21\00:25:18.81
>>DAVID: I mean, that's the
strongest possible way to say
00:25:18.81\00:25:21.42
that.
00:25:21.42\00:25:22.05
How else could you say that?
00:25:22.05\00:25:23.52
We hold these
truths to be self-evident.
00:25:23.52\00:25:25.52
>>JEFFREY: You don't
even argue it, it's intuitive.
00:25:25.52\00:25:26.96
>>DAVID: Yeah, that's right.
00:25:26.96\00:25:28.09
>>TY: We hold these truths
because the footnotes belong
00:25:28.09\00:25:31.99
from, yeah
00:25:31.99\00:25:32.76
-- >>DAVID: To be self-evident.
00:25:32.76\00:25:35.33
>>TY: Self-evident
means we know this.
00:25:35.33\00:25:38.33
>>DAVID: Created, created equal.
00:25:38.33\00:25:41.07
>>JEFFREY: Can I
say something, guys?
00:25:41.07\00:25:42.17
>>DAVID: That's at exact
odds with the eugenics thing.
00:25:42.17\00:25:44.44
>>JAMES: Endowed by a creator.
00:25:44.44\00:25:45.64
>>JEFFREY: But the word equal
there, that's a fascinating
00:25:45.64\00:25:48.91
thing.
00:25:48.91\00:25:50.15
Everybody today, secular or not,
especially, you know, we live in
00:25:50.15\00:25:55.32
the state of Oregon and it's
activism for everything, you
00:25:55.32\00:25:59.62
know, and social rights,
equality, all of these very
00:25:59.62\00:26:04.63
familiar notions and ideals that
we know, we read about it in the
00:26:04.63\00:26:07.86
news all day, every day.
00:26:07.86\00:26:09.90
I just love that fact that
you can't, I'll pose a question,
00:26:09.90\00:26:15.67
rather, can you arrive at any
sense of equality among human
00:26:15.67\00:26:20.08
beings?
00:26:20.08\00:26:21.31
Can you argue that human beings
should be treated equally, that
00:26:21.31\00:26:27.85
we should all have equal rights
from a purely evolutionary
00:26:27.85\00:26:32.92
perspective?
00:26:32.92\00:26:33.96
Because we're not
00:26:33.96\00:26:34.62
-- >>TY: Some would.
00:26:34.62\00:26:35.46
>>JEFFREY: But
we're not equal, though.
00:26:35.46\00:26:36.89
Well, we're not all equal.
00:26:36.89\00:26:38.09
People differ in IQ, people
differ in physical capabilities,
00:26:38.09\00:26:44.37
people differ in talents,
in cultural development, in
00:26:44.37\00:26:49.30
occupation, economically.
00:26:49.30\00:26:52.17
>>TY: That kind of equality
is not referenced in the
00:26:52.17\00:26:54.31
Declaration of Independence.
00:26:54.31\00:26:55.54
>>JEFFREY: Right, but my point
is, the notion of even assuming,
00:26:55.54\00:26:59.95
that even assuming that human
beings, innate equality, my
00:26:59.95\00:27:07.02
point is, you don't get that
00:27:07.02\00:27:09.16
-- >>DAVID: From biology,
from science, from evolution.
00:27:09.16\00:27:11.69
>>JEFFREY:
00:27:11.69\00:27:12.53
--by leaving the
biblical narrative.
00:27:12.53\00:27:13.76
The biblical narrative gives us
the premise of equality and that
00:27:13.76\00:27:17.13
is that every human being,
regardless of race, skin color,
00:27:17.13\00:27:21.57
intelligence, IQ, gender, what
have you, was created in the
00:27:21.57\00:27:25.37
image and the likeness of God.
00:27:25.37\00:27:27.18
>>JAMES: Because
they were created, yeah.
00:27:27.18\00:27:28.41
>>JEFFREY: So, that's the thing,
the objective thing that we all
00:27:28.41\00:27:32.65
hold equally, and on the
basis of that, we can argue for
00:27:32.65\00:27:36.65
equality, and my point is,
if you remove that out of the
00:27:36.65\00:27:39.05
picture
00:27:39.05\00:27:39.72
-- >>DAVID: Where's the basis?
00:27:39.72\00:27:40.96
>>JEFFREY: And actually, there
is, one of the leading political
00:27:40.96\00:27:46.63
legal philosophers, Joel
Fienberg I believe was his name,
00:27:46.63\00:27:51.07
in the '60s, wrote on the
concept of ethics from a secular
00:27:51.07\00:27:57.47
perspective and that's
exactly the argument he posed.
00:27:57.47\00:28:00.18
He said, this is a legal
philosopher, he said, we don't
00:28:00.18\00:28:04.21
really have a basis for equal
rights, it just seems to be the
00:28:04.21\00:28:10.35
right thing to do.
00:28:10.35\00:28:11.59
But he says, at the very core,
we don't have a basis for it,
00:28:11.59\00:28:14.39
and his argument for that
was because we're not equal.
00:28:14.39\00:28:17.43
We're not equal from an
evolutionary perspective, we're
00:28:17.43\00:28:20.80
not equal.
00:28:20.80\00:28:21.86
>>DAVID: Or financial
perspective or an intelligent,
00:28:21.86\00:28:23.20
yeah, all that.
00:28:23.20\00:28:24.43
>>JEFFREY: I think that point
doesn't get enough attention.
00:28:24.43\00:28:25.63
I think that's a huge
point that, that's overlooked.
00:28:25.63\00:28:29.50
>>DAVID: Here's how I would say
it, we conduct government, we
00:28:29.50\00:28:34.68
conduct law, we conduct the
treatment of criminals, we do
00:28:34.68\00:28:40.05
life on the assumption
of the creation story.
00:28:40.05\00:28:43.95
Like Ty was saying, there's
the two stories, you have the
00:28:43.95\00:28:47.36
creation story and you
have the evolutionary story.
00:28:47.36\00:28:49.19
The you were made in the image
of God story or you've evolved
00:28:49.19\00:28:51.69
from lower life forms.
00:28:51.69\00:28:52.59
We don't do life based on this.
00:28:52.59\00:28:55.26
We punish people that
do life based on this.
00:28:55.26\00:28:57.80
I'm gonna go into this room and
I'm gonna take what I want, and
00:28:57.80\00:29:00.57
we say, okay, you're unsafe to
society, we're gonna stick you
00:29:00.57\00:29:03.37
away.
00:29:03.37\00:29:04.41
Right, or in extreme
cases, they'll shoot them.
00:29:04.41\00:29:05.94
We don't do life like that.
00:29:05.94\00:29:08.38
We do life like the writers of
the Declaration of Independence
00:29:08.38\00:29:11.68
did.
00:29:11.68\00:29:12.88
That's not to say that they
were all evangelical Christians.
00:29:12.88\00:29:14.25
They weren't, but there was this
saturative idea that there is
00:29:14.25\00:29:18.85
some sense in which we have,
as you said, innate dignity.
00:29:18.85\00:29:23.99
And where does that come from?
00:29:23.99\00:29:25.46
It has to be transcendent to us.
00:29:25.46\00:29:27.03
It can't come from among us, it
has to come from outside of us.
00:29:27.03\00:29:31.20
It's investing Jeffrey equally
with David, with James, with Ty,
00:29:31.20\00:29:34.47
with the
cameramen, with the world.
00:29:34.47\00:29:36.47
>>JEFFREY: And the fact that
we do life, I love how you said
00:29:36.47\00:29:39.24
that, we do life assuming that.
00:29:39.24\00:29:41.34
Another philosophy used the
analogy of a borrowed credit
00:29:41.34\00:29:44.55
card.
00:29:44.55\00:29:46.01
So many people in the secular
world, or whatever world that
00:29:46.01\00:29:49.78
are
00:29:49.78\00:29:51.52
-- >>DAVID: At odds
with the creation story.
00:29:51.52\00:29:53.89
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, at odds with
the creation narrative and world
00:29:53.89\00:29:55.69
view, live life on a borrowed
credit card because they live
00:29:55.69\00:29:59.26
life as if that was true.
00:29:59.26\00:30:03.03
Yeah, they lived as if there was
purpose and meaning and as if
00:30:03.03\00:30:07.80
individuals were valuable.
00:30:07.80\00:30:09.00
But, they're on a
borrowed credit card.
00:30:09.00\00:30:13.51
They're borrowing credit card to
make purchases to purchase these
00:30:13.51\00:30:17.61
things and experience these
things, but they're not inherent
00:30:17.61\00:30:20.12
in that world view, they have
to reach outside the world view,
00:30:20.12\00:30:24.25
borrow ideals and import those
ideals into a foreign world view
00:30:24.25\00:30:28.76
that doesn't have
the underpinnings for it.
00:30:28.76\00:30:31.06
>>TY: And the dignity of the
individual goes in the direction
00:30:31.06\00:30:35.23
of our systems of justice.
00:30:35.23\00:30:38.03
In the creation perspective,
there is legitimate reason for
00:30:38.03\00:30:44.01
which we should all be
held accountable for our actions
00:30:44.01\00:30:49.48
toward others, right?
00:30:49.48\00:30:50.95
But in the evolutionary
world view, what's the basis for
00:30:50.95\00:30:55.35
accountability?
00:30:55.35\00:30:56.58
On what premise do I say to you,
that was wrong what you did, and
00:30:56.58\00:31:05.03
now you're going to suffer the
consequences of what you did.
00:31:05.03\00:31:08.40
There's no basis for a just
society to be established or
00:31:08.40\00:31:13.84
constructed.
00:31:13.84\00:31:14.90
>>DAVID: Particular, and
this is probably going more
00:31:14.90\00:31:16.24
philosophical than we wanna
go in this conversation that we
00:31:16.24\00:31:18.87
could, particularly
when you realize that strict
00:31:18.87\00:31:22.18
materialistic Darwinian
evolution lends itself to
00:31:22.18\00:31:26.51
determinism.
00:31:26.51\00:31:27.62
That is to say that you
don't really have a choice.
00:31:27.62\00:31:30.12
You blame it on your genes,
you blame it on a hundred other
00:31:30.12\00:31:32.62
things, this is the person you
were, well, how do you punish
00:31:32.62\00:31:35.42
that?
00:31:35.42\00:31:36.66
How do you say, and we live in
a world, going back to the first
00:31:36.66\00:31:39.33
program there where, why are
men unfaithful, why are people
00:31:39.33\00:31:43.00
unfaithful, why can't they stay
in bed with the right person?
00:31:43.00\00:31:45.17
Well, you have an evolutionary
excuse, well, because you can't
00:31:45.17\00:31:49.74
not.
00:31:49.74\00:31:50.94
Well, if you tell me that I
can't not but do something, how
00:31:50.94\00:31:54.41
are you gonna then
punish me for doing it?
00:31:54.41\00:31:56.91
In other words, violence
or infidelity or whatever.
00:31:56.91\00:31:58.81
>>JEFFREY: I have an article
just outside in the car in the
00:31:58.81\00:32:01.25
parking lot and the article's
titled My Brain Made Me Do It.
00:32:01.25\00:32:05.15
And the subtitle is something to
the effect of how neuroscience
00:32:05.15\00:32:10.26
enters court.
00:32:10.26\00:32:11.46
And the article is literally
dealing with the dilemma now in
00:32:11.46\00:32:16.30
the court system of what you
just said, and it highlights two
00:32:16.30\00:32:22.27
individuals, otherwise perfectly
sane, normal people, some of
00:32:22.27\00:32:26.57
them are physicians, some of
them are educators, after years
00:32:26.57\00:32:29.48
and years, child molestation,
all this stuff surfaces and now
00:32:29.48\00:32:33.68
they're in court and, oh,
there's a chemical imbalance in
00:32:33.68\00:32:36.38
the brain, and I don't wanna
take away from that, obviously,
00:32:36.38\00:32:38.59
there are cases where, you
know, these things take place.
00:32:38.59\00:32:42.06
But my point is that the
article's saying, what do we do
00:32:42.06\00:32:47.76
with this now?
00:32:47.76\00:32:48.83
>>DAVID: It's everybody gets
the insanity defense, right?
00:32:48.83\00:32:50.33
That's the thing.
00:32:50.33\00:32:51.33
>>JEFFREY: There's no
moral attachment to you
00:32:51.33\00:32:54.10
-- >>TY: But according to the
evolutionary theory, it can't
00:32:54.10\00:32:56.30
even rightfully be called
insanity, it's just we're living
00:32:56.30\00:32:59.54
in a chaotic explosion that
occurred 14 billion years ago,
00:32:59.54\00:33:05.78
and here we are on the tail end
of that, we're evolving animals
00:33:05.78\00:33:11.02
and there's no reason to expect
anything of anybody that would
00:33:11.02\00:33:17.03
operate or act with respect
for any other, and so there's no
00:33:17.03\00:33:22.60
moral quality at
all to human actions.
00:33:22.60\00:33:25.90
>>DAVID: You go ahead, James.
00:33:25.90\00:33:27.14
>>JAMES: I wanted to bring, not
all of this to a conclusion, but
00:33:27.14\00:33:30.11
I wanted to bring this together
with a statement that I wanted
00:33:30.11\00:33:32.74
to read because I think
we're looking at very legitimate
00:33:32.74\00:33:36.18
arguments against evolution.
00:33:36.18\00:33:38.58
Arguments that I think
need to be brought to the table.
00:33:38.58\00:33:41.48
A lot of the times, when we talk
about this and we discuss this
00:33:41.48\00:33:44.49
subject, we try to defend the
bible, we try to defend God and
00:33:44.49\00:33:47.46
I think there's not enough
offense in this, in other words,
00:33:47.46\00:33:50.83
there's not enough people
that are questioning the reasons
00:33:50.83\00:33:54.60
behind evolution and the
arguments behind evolution, I
00:33:54.60\00:33:56.90
think that's what
we're doing right now.
00:33:56.90\00:33:58.13
So, I wanna read a statement to
you and I want you to see if you
00:33:58.13\00:34:00.27
can pick out at least 3 points
in here, solid arguments against
00:34:00.27\00:34:05.97
evolution as I read this
statement, see if you can bring
00:34:05.97\00:34:07.98
them out and when we're
finished, we'll talk about it.
00:34:07.98\00:34:09.54
When consideration is
given to man's opportunities for
00:34:09.54\00:34:12.51
research, how brief his life,
how limited his fear of action.
00:34:12.51\00:34:17.09
How restricted his vision, how
frequent and how great are his
00:34:17.09\00:34:20.92
errors in his conclusions.
00:34:20.92\00:34:23.12
Especially as concerned the
events thought to antedate bible
00:34:23.12\00:34:28.50
history.
00:34:28.50\00:34:29.53
How often the supposed
deductions of science are
00:34:29.53\00:34:32.10
revised or cast aside.
00:34:32.10\00:34:33.74
With what readiness the assumed
period of earth's development is
00:34:33.74\00:34:39.04
from time to time increased or
diminished by millions of years
00:34:39.04\00:34:43.48
and how the theories advance by
different scientists' conflict
00:34:43.48\00:34:47.45
with one another.
00:34:47.45\00:34:48.68
Considering all of this shall we
for the privilege of tracing our
00:34:48.68\00:34:52.82
descent from germs and mollusks
and apes, consent to cast away
00:34:52.82\00:34:57.96
that statement of holy ritz,
so grand in its simplicity, God
00:34:57.96\00:35:03.20
created man in his own image, in
the image of God created he him,
00:35:03.20\00:35:07.80
Genesis 1:27.
00:35:07.80\00:35:08.87
Shall we reject that
genealogical record prouder than
00:35:08.87\00:35:12.64
any treasured in the courts
of kings, which was the son of
00:35:12.64\00:35:15.84
Adam, which was the son of God.
00:35:15.84\00:35:17.81
Luke 3:38.
00:35:17.81\00:35:19.05
Did you catch
00:35:19.05\00:35:21.15
-- >>DAVID: There's a lot there.
00:35:21.15\00:35:22.08
>>JAMES: Yeah, but
did you catch those three
00:35:22.08\00:35:24.25
-- >>TY: I think I want you to
tell us what they are because I
00:35:24.25\00:35:26.35
wrote down the
fear of action but.
00:35:26.35\00:35:29.49
>>JAMES: Well, the ones that I
was specifically thinking about
00:35:29.49\00:35:31.79
were this, first of all, there's
this revision of science.
00:35:31.79\00:35:37.67
Science is continually being
revised by millions of years, up
00:35:37.67\00:35:41.47
and down, up, the earth is,
no, it's this, no it's this.
00:35:41.47\00:35:44.11
Then, there is
this, the theories.
00:35:44.11\00:35:49.78
In other words, there are
different theories that are
00:35:49.78\00:35:51.61
accepted or cast
aside, accepted or cast aside.
00:35:51.61\00:35:54.02
We have this theory then we
have another theory then we have
00:35:54.02\00:35:56.32
another theory, and then,
when we come to some of these
00:35:56.32\00:35:58.05
conclusions, number 3, we
have conflicting theories, one
00:35:58.05\00:36:02.22
scientist will say 4 billion,
another scientist will say 2
00:36:02.22\00:36:05.56
billion.
00:36:05.56\00:36:06.76
So, you have the casting aside
of ideas, then you have the
00:36:06.76\00:36:11.77
adding and taking away millions
and billions of years and then
00:36:11.77\00:36:14.17
you have the conflict
of the final theories.
00:36:14.17\00:36:16.44
>>DAVID: The only point of
correction on that that I would
00:36:16.44\00:36:19.94
say is, is that the numbers of
years, the amount of time, both
00:36:19.94\00:36:24.55
cosmologically and biologically,
in other words, for life and for
00:36:24.55\00:36:28.72
the cosmos, those times aren't
going up and then back, they're
00:36:28.72\00:36:32.52
just going up.
00:36:32.52\00:36:33.72
In other words, the revisions
are always adding years and
00:36:33.72\00:36:36.73
there's a reason for that.
00:36:36.73\00:36:37.79
Theistic evolution, like,
in terms of like classical
00:36:37.79\00:36:43.93
biological evolution, okay,
here's the simplest way to say
00:36:43.93\00:36:47.64
it, microscopes didn't exist.
00:36:47.64\00:36:49.00
The kinds of microscopes that
we have access to today did not
00:36:49.00\00:36:54.04
exist in the 1850s when Darwin's
writing Origin of Species.
00:36:54.04\00:36:57.15
So, with their rudimentary
tools, they look and they see
00:36:57.15\00:37:00.92
something that looks like, just
gonna borrow this from you, Ty.
00:37:00.92\00:37:03.75
They see something
that looks like that.
00:37:03.75\00:37:07.52
They see, you know, a basic
border, they see a parameter,
00:37:07.52\00:37:11.13
and then they see a
dark spot in the middle.
00:37:11.13\00:37:12.56
They know that's a cell, they
can look on a leaf, they can put
00:37:12.56\00:37:14.73
it on a glass, they can, and
they had a very simple, it looks
00:37:14.73\00:37:18.80
like a brick.
00:37:18.80\00:37:20.04
A simple brick and you take a
brick and you build a cathedral,
00:37:20.04\00:37:23.04
you take a brick and you build
a library, you take a brick and
00:37:23.04\00:37:24.94
you build a house.
00:37:24.94\00:37:26.04
So, DNA is not gonna be
discovered, this is 18, for 100
00:37:26.04\00:37:29.38
years, right?
00:37:29.38\00:37:31.98
And the tricky thing about
DNA is not just that it's this
00:37:31.98\00:37:34.98
spiral, whatever, this looks
kind of like DNA, it's not just
00:37:34.98\00:37:38.59
that it's this spiral chasse,
that's not what makes DNA
00:37:38.59\00:37:41.99
awesome, it's that that spiral,
in the same way that this iPad
00:37:41.99\00:37:46.70
is pretty cool, but that's, it's
not this nice, glass screen,
00:37:46.70\00:37:50.40
it's what's inside of there.
00:37:50.40\00:37:51.93
>>TY: The info.
00:37:51.93\00:37:52.83
>>DAVID: The chasse
contains information.
00:37:52.83\00:37:54.54
It contains data.
00:37:54.54\00:37:55.77
This is lightyears beyond this
simplistic notion of what, and
00:37:55.77\00:38:02.04
so, originally, okay, man
evolves over this period of
00:38:02.04\00:38:04.55
time, whoa, whoa, whoa,
there's a complexity here.
00:38:04.55\00:38:06.95
>>JEFFREY: We need more time
to account for the complexity.
00:38:06.95\00:38:08.65
>>DAVID: And then
that, and then that.
00:38:08.65\00:38:10.25
>>TY: But the thing is, David,
that there's nobody who has
00:38:10.25\00:38:15.19
brought forth any theory or any
actual evidence that we witness
00:38:15.19\00:38:22.66
any increase in
basic DNA information.
00:38:22.66\00:38:25.97
>>DAVID: Yeah, that's the,
yeah, now we're kind of, okay.
00:38:25.97\00:38:29.17
So, now we're getting to
sort of the point of the thing.
00:38:29.17\00:38:32.87
And the truth of matter is, not
a scientist, not a scientist,
00:38:32.87\00:38:36.54
not a scientist,
not a scientist, right?
00:38:36.54\00:38:38.35
That's huge, we
have to admit that.
00:38:38.35\00:38:40.25
So, but we also have to admit
that the question of origin is
00:38:40.25\00:38:44.85
too important to
leave to professionals.
00:38:44.85\00:38:47.16
You feel the weight of that?
00:38:47.16\00:38:49.16
In other words, we can't allow
the priests of modernity, namely
00:38:49.16\00:38:54.00
scientists, to have, you know,
they're the only ones allowed to
00:38:54.00\00:38:57.60
speak to these issues
just because we can't.
00:38:57.60\00:38:59.30
No, no, no, no, no, we have held
our children in our arms, with
00:38:59.30\00:39:05.37
the exception of Jeffrey, we
have held our child in our, we
00:39:05.37\00:39:09.28
have seen the sunset,
the same sunset they've seen.
00:39:09.28\00:39:11.35
We have heard a symphony, the
same symphonies they've heard.
00:39:11.35\00:39:14.78
We have smelled the smell of
magnolias or lilacs or whatever
00:39:14.78\00:39:19.25
it is for you, we have tasted
a mango plucked fresh from the
00:39:19.25\00:39:24.23
tree.
00:39:24.23\00:39:24.49
We know.
00:39:24.49\00:39:25.69
So, to say, for somebody to come
to us and say, there's, it's
00:39:25.69\00:39:27.66
really meaningless, it's
just, you remember, a number of
00:39:27.66\00:39:31.67
episodes ago, Ty, there was
a statement where you read this
00:39:31.67\00:39:33.87
thing about how the universe
is just in this decay, Bertrand
00:39:33.87\00:39:36.50
Russel, this decay and we're
just like a blip, a flash in the
00:39:36.50\00:39:39.94
pan.
00:39:39.94\00:39:40.51
I reject that.
00:39:40.51\00:39:41.71
And, can I reject it on the
strictly scientific, biological,
00:39:41.71\00:39:46.01
no, but I'm comforted by the
fact that there are scientists
00:39:46.01\00:39:50.25
who disagree with the mainstream
view, number one, and number
00:39:50.25\00:39:54.26
two, I'm comforted by the
fact that scripture says, in the
00:39:54.26\00:39:58.09
beginning God created the
heavens and the earth, and let
00:39:58.09\00:40:01.36
us make mankind
in our own image.
00:40:01.36\00:40:03.43
Because that resonates
deeply with my sense of justice,
00:40:03.43\00:40:07.00
morality, the love, comradery,
I mean, I'm preaching now.
00:40:07.00\00:40:10.11
>>JEFFREY: It resonates
with your experience in life.
00:40:10.11\00:40:13.68
>>DAVID: Yes, it does
resonate with my experience.
00:40:13.68\00:40:16.98
>>JEFFREY: Experientially, that
resonates and it corresponds
00:40:16.98\00:40:19.18
with the reality
that I've experienced.
00:40:19.18\00:40:20.78
>>DAVID: And I think that it
resonated, it's resonated with
00:40:20.78\00:40:23.18
most peoples, most cultures,
which have been religious, and
00:40:23.18\00:40:26.99
it gets us back to the
Declaration of Independence.
00:40:26.99\00:40:29.29
It's self-evident.
00:40:29.29\00:40:31.86
Come on now.
00:40:31.86\00:40:33.09
Don't tell me that I am the mere
product of, I can't accept that.
00:40:33.09\00:40:39.10
>>JAMES: Can I tell you that our
time's up and that we'll come
00:40:39.10\00:40:41.90
back and finish?
00:40:41.90\00:40:43.14
>>TY: Our time isn't completely
up, that's the end of segment 2,
00:40:43.14\00:40:45.97
we have one more segment,
so yeah, let's take a break.
00:40:45.97\00:40:48.48
we have one more segment,
so yeah, let's take a break.
00:40:48.48\00:40:49.14
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00:40:56.02\00:40:58.55
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00:41:01.66\00:41:05.19
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[Music]
00:41:40.20\00:41:45.23
[Music]
00:41:45.23\00:41:46.40
My tongue was twisting a few
times and I sensed that among
00:41:50.34\00:41:55.14
us, we're a little
bit out of our depth.
00:41:55.14\00:41:58.65
>>DAVID: I'm preaching.
00:41:58.65\00:41:59.85
>>TY: Well, I'm talking about
the fact that we pointed out
00:41:59.85\00:42:03.55
that we're not scientists.
00:42:03.55\00:42:05.19
You were
preaching biblical ideas.
00:42:05.19\00:42:08.42
But here's the thing, here's the
thing, we're not scientists, but
00:42:08.42\00:42:13.43
we are theologians, we
do love the word of God
00:42:13.43\00:42:17.17
-- >>JEFFREY: I would
say we're human beings.
00:42:17.17\00:42:18.50
>>TY: We're human beings, and so
00:42:18.50\00:42:20.00
-- >>JEFFREY: I'm
speaking as a human being.
00:42:20.00\00:42:21.10
>>TY: As a human being.
00:42:21.10\00:42:22.04
We sense the gravity
of the subject matter.
00:42:22.04\00:42:24.84
We've got two stories before us,
we've got a creation story that
00:42:24.84\00:42:27.78
invests human beings
with dignity, we've got an
00:42:27.78\00:42:30.18
evolutionary storyline that is
void of the raw materials from
00:42:30.18\00:42:35.28
which to
construct human dignity.
00:42:35.28\00:42:37.89
>>DAVID: I like the way
you say that, raw materials.
00:42:37.89\00:42:39.25
>>TY: Yeah, so as we look
at this subject a little bit
00:42:39.25\00:42:42.89
further, I think it would be
great if we could get to some of
00:42:42.89\00:42:46.83
the biblical ideas that are
completely incompatible with the
00:42:46.83\00:42:52.93
evolutionary worldview.
00:42:52.93\00:42:54.94
For example, the bible very
clearly and explicitly tells us
00:42:54.94\00:43:00.98
that, in Romans chapter 5, verse
12, that death came by sin.
00:43:00.98\00:43:06.82
So, here we have something that
all of us, all human beings,
00:43:06.82\00:43:12.19
hate and fear and dread, death,
the evolutionary world view
00:43:12.19\00:43:16.69
basically says, this is just
a part of the process of the
00:43:16.69\00:43:22.36
evolutionary development of
human beings and all life forms,
00:43:22.36\00:43:26.33
but the biblical account says,
no, death is the product of sin.
00:43:26.33\00:43:30.64
We have theistic evolutionists
that come along and they try to
00:43:30.64\00:43:35.24
retain a belief in God and
retain the biblical narrative,
00:43:35.24\00:43:40.12
but then, what
happens with death.
00:43:40.12\00:43:42.92
Suddenly, we're left with the
distinct impression that if God
00:43:42.92\00:43:49.56
used evolution as his means of
creating the world, then death
00:43:49.56\00:43:56.53
didn't come from
sin, it came from God.
00:43:56.53\00:43:59.03
God used a process that
has death, not just death, but
00:43:59.03\00:44:04.34
brutality inherent in the
thing that is called evolution.
00:44:04.34\00:44:09.18
In other words
00:44:09.18\00:44:10.28
-- >>DAVID: Through millions
and billions of creatures.
00:44:10.28\00:44:12.28
>>TY: Yeah, so if we accept
theistic evolution, then we
00:44:12.28\00:44:16.92
would have to necessarily
believe that there is a brutal
00:44:16.92\00:44:20.42
element in the character of God,
that God is the one who came up
00:44:20.42\00:44:24.23
with this method, this
survival of the fittest,
00:44:24.23\00:44:28.06
self-preservation methodology.
00:44:28.06\00:44:30.90
How can we worship or love a God
who thinks up a method that is
00:44:30.90\00:44:39.01
so absolutely full
of pain and suffering?
00:44:39.01\00:44:42.88
>>DAVID: Pain, suffering, death.
00:44:42.88\00:44:44.11
>>TY: I think we can only go one
of two directions, it's either
00:44:44.11\00:44:46.85
full-blown, materialistic
evolution and there is no God,
00:44:46.85\00:44:49.85
or the biblical narrative.
00:44:49.85\00:44:51.59
This theistic evolution
thing in between, what is that?
00:44:51.59\00:44:55.19
>>DAVID: You disagree with that?
00:44:55.19\00:44:56.39
>>JEFFREY: No,
I'm saying absolutely.
00:44:56.39\00:44:58.06
>>DAVID: Especially when you
have Jesus in the New Testament
00:44:58.06\00:45:00.20
saying, a sparrow doesn't fall
to the ground but your heavenly
00:45:00.20\00:45:03.70
Father takes notice.
00:45:03.70\00:45:04.90
>>JAMES: But evolution would
say, this day, evolution would
00:45:04.90\00:45:07.24
say, a sparrow falls to
the ground and that's part of a
00:45:07.24\00:45:09.24
process that God developed
in order for us to move on and
00:45:09.24\00:45:11.84
grow.
00:45:11.84\00:45:13.01
>>DAVID: The picture shows
a tender, brooding, you know,
00:45:13.01\00:45:18.91
looking in
picture over a sparrow.
00:45:18.91\00:45:21.42
I'm a birder, as you know,
I love my birds, I love that
00:45:21.42\00:45:24.72
picture of God.
00:45:24.72\00:45:25.55
Jesus also said,
consider the ravens.
00:45:25.55\00:45:27.42
I just love this idea that the
tenderest, smallest things, God
00:45:27.42\00:45:32.23
is aware of, he's cognicent of,
he created, and he loves, versus
00:45:32.23\00:45:36.70
this picture that you're
describing, which puts brutality
00:45:36.70\00:45:39.53
as in the heart of God as
the mechanism, the creative
00:45:39.53\00:45:43.84
mechanism by which he said, hey,
how am I gonna get to my, you
00:45:43.84\00:45:46.78
know, Adam and Eve in the story?
00:45:46.78\00:45:48.11
>>JEFFREY: And the biblical
story says that death is what
00:45:48.11\00:45:50.21
broke God's original mechanism,
not part of his mechanism.
00:45:50.21\00:45:52.81
>>TY: But take it a step
further, what about the biblical
00:45:52.81\00:45:54.98
idea of atonement?
00:45:54.98\00:45:55.95
>>DAVID: The whole
thing, the wheels come off.
00:45:55.95\00:45:58.09
>>TY: What do you do with that?
00:45:58.09\00:45:59.19
So, Jesus comes into the
world and he dies for what?
00:45:59.19\00:46:04.73
If theistic evolution is
true, how is the death of Jesus
00:46:04.73\00:46:09.46
remedying sin?
00:46:09.46\00:46:12.17
A remedy for death?
00:46:12.17\00:46:14.97
It makes no sense.
00:46:14.97\00:46:16.17
>>DAVID: When we read the
New Testament, the New Testament
00:46:16.17\00:46:18.37
writers and Jesus himself
assumed the basic historicity
00:46:18.37\00:46:23.45
and truthfulness of
the creation account.
00:46:23.45\00:46:26.68
In other words, they're
not building up to prove the
00:46:26.68\00:46:29.88
creation account, they're
starting with the creation
00:46:29.88\00:46:31.69
account as their basis upon
which they build their ideas.
00:46:31.69\00:46:35.39
So, if we say, okay, no
creation, the creation account
00:46:35.39\00:46:39.36
where death comes after sin and
where sin is an alien in God's
00:46:39.36\00:46:44.13
otherwise beautiful and
wonderful creation, if we start
00:46:44.13\00:46:48.50
at a different place than that,
then the New Testament doesn't
00:46:48.50\00:46:51.67
make a wink of
sense, that's my opinion.
00:46:51.67\00:46:53.48
>>TY: You gotta go
one of two directions.
00:46:53.48\00:46:55.88
>>DAVID: I know there are
well-meaning Christians that are
00:46:55.88\00:46:58.58
trying to marry the two and
they see a basic compatibility.
00:46:58.58\00:47:01.45
I've looked for
it, I don't see it.
00:47:01.45\00:47:03.02
>>TY: And the
arguments are not persuasive.
00:47:03.02\00:47:06.02
For example, in one
conversation, an individual, who
00:47:06.02\00:47:10.83
is espousing theistic evolution,
the basis of accepting that
00:47:10.83\00:47:15.26
theory and retaining a belief
in God was to say, well, the
00:47:15.26\00:47:19.40
Genesis account of creation
in Genesis 1 and 2 is clearly a
00:47:19.40\00:47:23.74
poem, therefore, it
can't be taken literally.
00:47:23.74\00:47:26.57
Well, the fact is, Genesis one
and two is written as a poem.
00:47:26.57\00:47:32.68
It's a poetic, it's
structured as a poem.
00:47:32.68\00:47:37.29
But here's the thing, just
because it's a poem doesn't mean
00:47:37.29\00:47:40.26
it's not describing
things that are true.
00:47:40.26\00:47:42.12
Isaiah 42 is a poem, and it's
describing the coming of the
00:47:42.12\00:47:46.59
Messiah.
00:47:46.59\00:47:47.83
We don't say we can't have the
Messiah because that's a poem,
00:47:47.83\00:47:49.46
people write poems and love
songs to express real things.
00:47:49.46\00:47:54.24
it's not
describing every detail.
00:47:54.24\00:47:58.61
It's not telling us down to
exactly what's going on with God
00:47:58.61\00:48:06.28
at the molecular level, it's
just describing that God created
00:48:06.28\00:48:10.49
the world in 6 days and rested
on the seventh day, it's a
00:48:10.49\00:48:13.92
beautiful poem, it's
telling us the truth.
00:48:13.92\00:48:15.26
>>DAVID: Something I wanna say
about that is while we are not
00:48:15.26\00:48:18.96
scientists or philosophers
of science there are, there are
00:48:18.96\00:48:23.26
many, not the majority, not by
any stretch, but there are many
00:48:23.26\00:48:26.57
scientists and philosophers
of science and other thinking
00:48:26.57\00:48:31.87
people out there who are
familiar with the various
00:48:31.87\00:48:34.34
disciplines and nomenclatures of
these other academic areas that
00:48:34.34\00:48:38.15
also are calling evolution
into question, not on biblical
00:48:38.15\00:48:43.45
grounds, and that's the key.
00:48:43.45\00:48:44.79
>>TY: But on scientific grounds.
00:48:44.79\00:48:45.55
>>DAVID: But on
scientific grounds.
00:48:45.55\00:48:46.79
A number of years ago, I read a
book that, it's a little heady,
00:48:46.79\00:48:51.53
but recommended, especially
for those that are interested in
00:48:51.53\00:48:54.00
this, titled Uncommon Descent,
which is a play on the idea of
00:48:54.00\00:48:58.10
common descent, the Darwinian
mechanism of common descent.
00:48:58.10\00:49:00.97
Uncommon Descent, intellectuals
who find Darwinism unconvincing,
00:49:00.97\00:49:06.27
right?
00:49:06.27\00:49:07.51
One of those intellectuals that
writes in the book there was a
00:49:07.51\00:49:09.14
man by the name of David
Berlinski, David Berlinski's a
00:49:09.14\00:49:11.21
writer, an author, secular Jew,
mathematician, philosopher, and
00:49:11.21\00:49:17.42
I've read most of his books, at
least his non-technical books,
00:49:17.42\00:49:21.32
I've read most of his popular
books and some of his books I've
00:49:21.32\00:49:23.83
read repeatedly.
00:49:23.83\00:49:24.99
And Berlinski is somebody
who, though he's a Jew, he's a
00:49:24.99\00:49:28.86
secular Jew, he's an admitted
agnostic, and he's not coming
00:49:28.86\00:49:34.10
and saying, well, the bible
says, therefore, scripture says,
00:49:34.10\00:49:36.67
therefore, the Jewish scriptures
say, therefore, he's saying, I'm
00:49:36.67\00:49:39.94
not even sure about this whole
God thing, but I know that's not
00:49:39.94\00:49:42.11
true.
00:49:42.11\00:49:43.31
So, here's a scientist, here's
a philosopher of science, and
00:49:43.31\00:49:46.31
there are others, there are many
others that are taking issue
00:49:46.31\00:49:48.45
with this basic picture, not
because they're in defense of
00:49:48.45\00:49:52.92
some theological position, which
we could be accused of in this
00:49:52.92\00:49:56.22
program, somebody, a scientist,
or somebody else might watch
00:49:56.22\00:49:58.13
this program and say, okay,
but where's the scientific data?
00:49:58.13\00:50:00.23
But we're not scientists.
00:50:00.23\00:50:01.23
>>TY: Right, so
we're not gonna bring that.
00:50:01.23\00:50:02.33
>>DAVID: But we can say,
philosophically, we don't feel
00:50:02.33\00:50:04.90
it, when it comes to
governmental systems, when it
00:50:04.90\00:50:07.20
comes to basic sense of justice,
when it comes to human dignity,
00:50:07.20\00:50:09.70
when it come, we have addressed,
philosophically, where evolution
00:50:09.70\00:50:13.41
tends to, we talked about
Germany and eugenics, but I'm
00:50:13.41\00:50:17.25
greatly comforted know that
there are people out there like
00:50:17.25\00:50:19.75
Dr. Berlinski, William Dempsky,
Dr. Sean Pitman, and this is a
00:50:19.75\00:50:23.89
friend of Ty and I's, Dr.
John Ashton wrote a great book,
00:50:23.89\00:50:27.79
Evolution Impossible, 12 reasons
why evolution cannot explain the
00:50:27.79\00:50:31.59
origin of life on earth, he's
a PhD microbiologist, and just a
00:50:31.59\00:50:36.00
really, just a cool guy, I mean,
he's got the longest eyelashes
00:50:36.00\00:50:40.20
in the world, by the way.
00:50:40.20\00:50:41.27
>>TY: Yeah, he has
beautiful eyelashes.
00:50:41.27\00:50:42.70
That is a fun book to
read and it's at the laylevel.
00:50:42.70\00:50:46.04
>>DAVID: It's at the laylevel.
00:50:46.04\00:50:47.24
So, I love the fact that there
are people out there who are
00:50:47.24\00:50:51.55
conversant in that nomenclature
and that terminology that say,
00:50:51.55\00:50:54.88
oh, by the way, another
great resource is the website, I
00:50:54.88\00:50:58.02
mentioned Dr. Sean
Pitman, detectingdesign.com.
00:50:58.02\00:51:02.32
I don't know if you've
been there or not, that's a huge
00:51:02.32\00:51:03.93
resource for me.
00:51:03.93\00:51:04.96
Detectingdesign.com.
00:51:04.96\00:51:06.86
And I'll be honest, a
significant percentage of that
00:51:06.86\00:51:09.30
goes over my head,
but what I get, I love.
00:51:09.30\00:51:13.23
Now, with your guys' permission,
I wanna read one of my favorite
00:51:13.23\00:51:15.17
quotations from David Berlinski,
from his book, The Devil's
00:51:15.17\00:51:18.91
Delusion, which is a response
to Richard Dawkins' The God
00:51:18.91\00:51:21.48
Delusion, that describes
00:51:21.48\00:51:24.61
-- >>TY: By the way, that's
a fun book to read, too, and
00:51:24.61\00:51:26.51
anybody can read it, it's not
technical, it's entertaining,
00:51:26.51\00:51:29.98
but it's so
stimulating intellectually.
00:51:29.98\00:51:33.52
>>DAVID: I've read the book four
times and sections of it, like,
00:51:33.52\00:51:36.09
ten.
00:51:36.09\00:51:36.99
It's just pure,
it's intellectual candy.
00:51:36.99\00:51:39.19
It's a joy.
00:51:39.19\00:51:40.43
It's fun to see a mathematician,
a scientist, and a philosopher
00:51:40.43\00:51:44.37
of science give other
intellectuals a hard time about
00:51:44.37\00:51:48.37
the gaps in their own
thinking and reasoning.
00:51:48.37\00:51:51.31
Anyway, he has this great
quotation from the book The
00:51:51.31\00:51:54.71
Devil's Delusion that's talking
about the fundamental difference
00:51:54.71\00:51:57.81
that we all know
intuitively between us and apes.
00:51:57.81\00:52:01.32
Us and lower life forms.
00:52:01.32\00:52:04.22
Can I share that with you?
00:52:04.22\00:52:05.02
>>TY: Sure, do it.
00:52:05.02\00:52:06.25
>>DAVID: He says, the idea that
human beings have been endowed
00:52:06.25\00:52:08.92
with powers and properties, not
found elsewhere in the animal
00:52:08.92\00:52:11.99
kingdom, arises from a simple
imperative, just look around.
00:52:11.99\00:52:16.06
It is an imperative
that survives the invitation,
00:52:16.06\00:52:19.83
fraternally, to
consider the great apes.
00:52:19.83\00:52:22.07
The apes are, after all, behind
the bars of their cages and we
00:52:22.07\00:52:25.07
are not.
00:52:25.07\00:52:26.27
Eager for the experiments to
begin, they are impatient for
00:52:26.27\00:52:30.31
the food to be served.
00:52:30.31\00:52:31.15
They seem
impatient for little else.
00:52:31.15\00:52:34.05
After years of punishing trial,
a few of them have been taught
00:52:34.05\00:52:37.09
the rudiments of various
primitive symbol systems, sign
00:52:37.09\00:52:40.49
language.
00:52:40.49\00:52:41.72
Having been given the gift of
language, they have nothing to
00:52:41.72\00:52:44.73
say.
00:52:44.73\00:52:45.23
[Laughter]
00:52:45.23\00:52:46.16
>>TY: I love that line.
00:52:46.16\00:52:48.70
>>DAVID: He says, in much
of this, apes communicating, in
00:52:48.70\00:52:52.20
much of this, we see ourselves,
now listen to this, but beyond
00:52:52.20\00:52:55.00
what we have in common with the
apes, we have nothing in common.
00:52:55.00\00:52:58.61
And while the similarities are
interesting, the differences are
00:52:58.61\00:53:03.18
profound.
00:53:03.18\00:53:04.75
If human beings are as human
beings think they are, then
00:53:04.75\00:53:08.65
religious ideas about
what they are gain purchase.
00:53:08.65\00:53:12.75
Last part, these
ideas are ancient.
00:53:12.75\00:53:16.36
They have arisen
spontaneously in every culture.
00:53:16.36\00:53:19.66
They have seemed, to men and
women, the obvious conclusions,
00:53:19.66\00:53:23.63
self-evident, the obvious
conclusions to be drawn from
00:53:23.63\00:53:27.57
just looking around.
00:53:27.57\00:53:29.10
An enormous amount of
intellectual effort has
00:53:29.10\00:53:31.81
accordingly been invested in
persuading men and women not to
00:53:31.81\00:53:35.31
look around.
00:53:35.31\00:53:35.94
>>TY: [Laughter]
00:53:35.94\00:53:36.75
Right.
00:53:36.75\00:53:37.98
>>JAMES: I think that quote was
really good, but I also think it
00:53:37.98\00:53:40.12
was read really well, too.
00:53:40.12\00:53:41.65
[Laughter]
00:53:41.65\00:53:42.78
>>DAVID: I just read it so
many times, I just love it.
00:53:42.78\00:53:44.02
He's basically saying that the
sense that we are different than
00:53:44.02\00:53:48.72
the other animal kingdom
arises from this imperative.
00:53:48.72\00:53:51.39
>>TY: Just look around.
00:53:51.39\00:53:52.39
>>DAVID: Take a look around.
00:53:52.39\00:53:53.60
And he says there's a lot of
intellectual effort invested in
00:53:53.60\00:53:56.16
getting people
to not look around.
00:53:56.16\00:53:57.90
>>TY: We mentioned earlier that
we're not scientists, and of
00:53:57.90\00:54:00.50
course, we're not, but there's
something there that I think is
00:54:00.50\00:54:03.10
interesting, the
just look around part.
00:54:03.10\00:54:06.61
>>JEFFREY: That invites
everyone, that invites normal
00:54:06.61\00:54:08.61
people.
00:54:08.61\00:54:09.78
>>TY: That invites everybody
into the discipline into the
00:54:09.78\00:54:13.85
process of
observing and that's science.
00:54:13.85\00:54:16.79
We may not be able to observe
on the scientific level that
00:54:16.79\00:54:20.49
specialists are observing, but
we sure can look around us and
00:54:20.49\00:54:25.43
see the way the world operates,
we sure can look at the
00:54:25.43\00:54:29.16
relationship that we enjoy
between a husband and a wife,
00:54:29.16\00:54:32.27
between parents and children, we
can certainly look at deeds of
00:54:32.27\00:54:37.17
heroism that we witness in
the world around us and we find
00:54:37.17\00:54:40.98
ourselves spontaneously
just wow, beautiful, well done.
00:54:40.98\00:54:47.38
There's something in us that
agrees with moral beauty and
00:54:47.38\00:54:51.59
there's something in us that
pushes back on anything contrary
00:54:51.59\00:54:55.72
to human beings rising to
the level of what we know in our
00:54:55.72\00:55:00.20
heart of hearts
we were made for.
00:55:00.20\00:55:02.06
>>JEFFREY: That reminds me of
a Lewis statement, where he says
00:55:02.06\00:55:04.17
that we can look out there to
try to understand the universe
00:55:04.17\00:55:08.64
and try to understand, he says,
or you can look somewhere closer
00:55:08.64\00:55:11.67
to home.
00:55:11.67\00:55:12.91
You can look at yourself instead
of your own processes and your
00:55:12.91\00:55:15.74
own experience and that itself
is, that's the most accessible
00:55:15.74\00:55:20.25
lesson book than looking out
there, looking at other species,
00:55:20.25\00:55:24.25
how about looking at
our own species and just.
00:55:24.25\00:55:26.92
>>DAVID: John Calvin,
the reformer, had this great
00:55:26.92\00:55:28.69
quotation where he basically
said, go sit under a tree and it
00:55:28.69\00:55:33.70
will become obvious to you that
the faculties which you possess
00:55:33.70\00:55:37.43
could not possibly
have come from yourself.
00:55:37.43\00:55:39.10
In other words, just spend a
moment in self-reflection, of
00:55:39.10\00:55:42.64
course, televisions didn't exist
in his day, but turn off the
00:55:42.64\00:55:44.34
television, turn off the iPad,
get away from the internet, and
00:55:44.34\00:55:47.68
just go sit under a tree for a
while, look at the birds, listen
00:55:47.68\00:55:49.78
to the sounds, look at
the grass, and look inside of
00:55:49.78\00:55:52.88
yourself and you will
become aware that the world is a
00:55:52.88\00:55:55.48
beautiful place and you occupy
a divine niche in that place,
00:55:55.48\00:56:01.16
God's speaking both
external and internal.
00:56:01.16\00:56:04.33
>>JEFFREY: We don't
do that enough today.
00:56:04.33\00:56:05.49
In today's society, it's just,
I think we should go back to
00:56:05.49\00:56:09.23
that, just
staring out the window.
00:56:09.23\00:56:11.93
>>DAVID: Well, this is
rich coming from a city boy.
00:56:11.93\00:56:13.50
>>JEFFREY: I heard, I have
chickens now, I own chickens.
00:56:13.50\00:56:16.64
[Laughter]
00:56:16.64\00:56:18.27
And my wife keeps bees in the
backyard, but I, I listened to a
00:56:18.27\00:56:22.28
song last night with my wife
where the musician was saying,
00:56:22.28\00:56:25.08
we need to turn the screen
off and go out and stare at the
00:56:25.08\00:56:29.25
stars.
00:56:29.25\00:56:30.49
We need to do that more often
and I just think that's powerful
00:56:30.49\00:56:32.05
and I think that everyone, in
a sense, is a natural scientist,
00:56:32.05\00:56:37.69
in the sense that we're natural
observers of the world around
00:56:37.69\00:56:41.03
us.
00:56:41.03\00:56:42.26
>>DAVID: You're talking about
turning screens off, can I ask
00:56:42.26\00:56:44.03
you to turn your screen on
and read us that quotation?
00:56:44.03\00:56:46.10
Because you have that one.
00:56:46.10\00:56:48.40
>>JEFFREY: That one.
00:56:48.40\00:56:51.04
>>DAVID: I just love it.
00:56:51.04\00:56:51.64
[inaudible chatter]
00:56:51.64\00:56:55.08
>>JEFFREY: God and the
astronomers, and this one here
00:56:55.08\00:56:57.31
is just basically painting a
picture of how, for all these
00:56:57.31\00:57:00.22
years, the bible has been
telling us that the universe had
00:57:00.22\00:57:02.85
a beginning, the universe
had a beginning, and what is so
00:57:02.85\00:57:06.15
obvious now to the scientific
community hasn't always been.
00:57:06.15\00:57:09.72
I think it was mid-20th century
1960s, Big Bang Theory and all
00:57:09.72\00:57:13.40
of that, right?
00:57:13.40\00:57:13.93
So, here's what he says.
00:57:13.93\00:57:15.10
For the scientist who has lived
by his faith in the power of
00:57:15.10\00:57:20.54
reason, the story
ends like a bad dream.
00:57:20.54\00:57:25.61
He has scaled the mountains of
ignorance, he's about to conquer
00:57:25.61\00:57:29.41
the highest peak, and as he
pulls himself over the final
00:57:29.41\00:57:33.55
rock, he's greeted by a band
of theologians who have been
00:57:33.55\00:57:38.32
sitting there for centuries.
00:57:38.32\00:57:40.86
>>TY: Oh, I love that.
00:57:40.86\00:57:43.22
>>JEFFREY: And at that point,
it's basically in the beginning,
00:57:43.22\00:57:46.80
God created the world, and with
that, all of the components that
00:57:46.80\00:57:51.07
we understand of life...
00:57:51.07\00:57:52.70
>>DAVID: And that's not a
diminishment of the scientific
00:57:52.70\00:57:55.34
enterprise at all.
00:57:55.34\00:57:56.57
What it's saying is, is that in
the beginning, God created the
00:57:56.57\00:57:59.57
heavens and the earth.
00:57:59.57\00:58:00.81
Scripture has said that for
3,000 years, right, and it's
00:58:00.81\00:58:04.25
been the intuitive sense
that man has had for even before
00:58:04.25\00:58:07.85
scripture was written.
00:58:07.85\00:58:09.32
And then, science says, that's
been the storyline of human
00:58:09.32\00:58:14.42
history for a long time,
and then, this modern sort of
00:58:14.42\00:58:18.03
atheistic enterprise, last
couple hundred years, has kinda
00:58:18.03\00:58:21.40
gone away from that, and then,
now, the actual discoveries of
00:58:21.40\00:58:25.10
cosmology and other scientific
disciplines are bringing it
00:58:25.10\00:58:28.10
back, and so, he's saying, man,
this sounds like a nightmare for
00:58:28.10\00:58:30.51
these guys.
00:58:30.51\00:58:31.74
>>TY: I read somewhere that
a little bit of science makes a
00:58:31.74\00:58:35.18
person an atheist and a
lot of science makes a person a
00:58:35.18\00:58:38.88
believer.
00:58:38.88\00:58:39.98
>>DAVID: Yeah, I've heard
the same quotation, but with
00:58:39.98\00:58:40.65
philosophy.
00:58:40.65\00:58:41.28
It's a Francis Bacon quote.
00:58:41.28\00:58:42.32
>>TY: Oh, is it?
00:58:42.32\00:58:42.88
>>DAVID: Yeah.
00:58:42.88\00:58:44.09
>>TY: So, really, we've come
full circle in our discussion
00:58:44.09\00:58:47.32
here and I think there's
something more than merely what
00:58:47.32\00:58:50.66
we observe.
00:58:50.66\00:58:51.89
We notice, in human hearts, our
own, and in other human hearts,
00:58:51.89\00:58:56.90
that we aspire to something that
finds no perfectly satisfying
00:58:56.90\00:59:02.50
match in our
present state of affairs.
00:59:02.50\00:59:06.07
We're longing for a love, for
a dignity that we cannot find
00:59:06.07\00:59:14.42
satisfaction for in any
relations in this world.
00:59:14.42\00:59:17.72
[Music]
00:59:17.72\00:59:27.76
[Music]
00:59:27.76\00:59:43.38