Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000036A
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00:00 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:25 close, I don't know if you remember that, and we felt like, 00:29 hey, we need to have a part two. 00:32 We didn't plan on having a part one and part two on why is there 00:36 so much killing in the Old Testament, but this is a such a 00:39 serious question and a question that we have so much interest 00:42 in, and we felt like we had a lot of clarity, but there were 00:47 things that we felt like we still needed to address that we 00:50 hadn't even gotten into. 00:51 So, maybe it would be good for us to begin by summarizing where 00:57 we come from in the previous conversation, and then, from 01:01 there, begin to inch our way forward to some of the 01:03 additional, difficult passages that we think need to be made 01:06 sense of. 01:08 >>DAVID: Yeah, that's a good idea. 01:09 So, what are the things that we, okay, well you help me. 01:12 The first thing that we talked about is number one, that these 01:15 are thorny questions that don't have nice, neat, easy, 01:18 platitudinous answers, and that that actually strongly suggests 01:22 the authenticity of scripture. 01:24 It's a human book, as you kept saying, something human 01:28 structures, do you remember what your language was? 01:30 >>JEFFREY: Fallen. 01:30 >>DAVID: Fallen human structures. 01:32 So, we talked about that, and then, we started talking about, 01:35 what I love is we started inching toward the solution, and 01:39 we don't mean the solution in any absolute sense, but toward 01:42 the direction of the answer. 01:43 It's like, we know it's in that direction, , it's over 01:45 that hill,you know across that valley, through that river. 01:47 And we started, Ty, with that compass point that is so 01:52 crucially important that you brought our attention to, that 01:54 true north compass point that scripture opens in Genesis 1 and 01:58 2 in a certain way with a certain picture of God, a 02:01 certain portrait of humanity and the interrelationship of God and 02:03 humanity, and then it closes in Revelation 21 and 22, that same 02:07 way, and you brought out something that I had never seen 02:11 before, and that was that, in Genesis 3, we're introduced to 02:14 this word and this idea of the curse, and then in Revelation 02:18 21, the removal or the lifting or the ending of that curse. 02:22 So, it's sort of the Eden to Eden perspective, and then I 02:26 love that little island of hope in the vast sea there of the Old 02:32 Testament and the New Testament, to some degree, that is 02:35 difficult to understand God's accommodation, and that's Isaiah 02:39 11:19, they will not hurt nor destroy, 11:9, I keep saying 19, 02:42 they will not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain because the 02:45 earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord. 02:46 Jeffrey then talked about the accommodations principle and I 02:51 loved the Matthew 19 thing where God made Adam and Eve and then, 02:57 later, Moses says, well, you know, you can divorce on these 02:59 grounds or according to these principles, but Jesus says in 03:02 Matthew 19, but it wasn't like that from the beginning. 03:05 It was because of the hardness of your hearts that God 03:07 accommodated the situation, and that launched us off into a 03:11 whole, we talked 03:12 -- >>JAMES: Yeah, Ty got into David and Saul and the kings. 03:16 >>DAVID: That was an accommodation. 03:18 >>JAMES: And that accommodation principle and how it applied 03:20 there and how that David became a man of war, a bloody man, that 03:23 he was a man of war and toward the end of his life, he wanted 03:26 to build this temple in worship for the Lord and God, in a 03:31 sense, distanced himself. 03:32 He pulled back and said, no, David, you can't do that. 03:35 Your hands are bloodied. 03:37 So, even though God is blessing David and protecting him, et 03:41 cetera, God is, in another sense, saying, you know, that's 03:44 my way, that's not the way that I operate and when it comes to 03:48 putting a temple to worship me, Solomon, a man of peace, is 03:51 gonna put that temple up. 03:52 >>DAVID: So, that was the accommodations principle. 03:54 >>JAMES: Old Testament. 03:55 >>DAVID: Yeah, and I like that, and we mentioned that God is 03:57 accommodating us all with even things like language and just 04:02 -- >>JEFFREY: And the fact that there's such a thing as a bible 04:04 is a condescension of God to accommodate our ability to even 04:08 comprehend even the language used in scripture. 04:11 It's not, this is not God language, this is human 04:14 language. 04:16 >>DAVID: Like what Ty has said before, God is an author, it's 04:18 not represented, he quoted that before. 04:20 Then we spent time on the flood, we spent time on Sodom and 04:25 Gomorrah, then we went to, what was it, Numbers 5? 04:27 Deuteronomy 20. 04:29 Deuteronomy 20, some of those difficult passages there. 04:33 >>JEFFREY: And then, we went to Leviticus, where we read what 04:36 were these 04:37 -- >>DAVID: The kinds of things that were going on, the 04:39 offering, the bestiality, you mentioned there, child 04:41 sacrifice, and the thing that sort of jumped out to me there 04:45 is when James, the thing that kind of brought the whole thing 04:48 together for me was when James told the story about his two 04:50 dogs, you know, and they get cancer and you have to remove 04:53 the eye and eventually, the thing is, it's just unsavable. 04:56 So, God looks down and he says, hey, look, this is, this 04:58 irredeemable. 05:01 So, I think that catches us pretty much up to where we're 05:04 at. 05:05 >>TY: Yeah, I personally felt like in our discussion, we 05:08 didn't get as far into what some people refer to as the ethnic 05:13 cleansings of the Old Testament as we would've liked to. 05:18 I always think of the ethnic cleansing episodes in quote 05:25 marks because they're not ethnic at all. 05:27 >>DAVID: It's not genocide. 05:28 >>TY: Yeah, and genocide is another word. 05:30 Yeah, ethnic cleansing, genocide, that's a misnomer. 05:36 We don't see in the Old Testament narrative God favoring 05:42 one ethnic group above another ethnic group. 05:47 We see God calling Abraham out of a culture and very explicitly 05:53 at the beginning of the storyline, in chapter 12 of 05:56 Genesis, God says to Abraham, I'm calling you out so that 06:00 through you, through your posterity, all the families of 06:05 the earth may be blessed. 06:06 So, from the beginning of the story, God has his eye on all of 06:13 humanity. 06:14 God loves the whole human race and he's not favoring one race 06:19 above another race. 06:21 What the principles are that are in play in the Old Testament, 06:25 when it comes to the various tribes of Canaan that Israel is 06:32 going to war with. 06:33 It's not ethnicity, that's not the issue. 06:37 This isn't a Rwanda situation where the Tutsis and the Hutus 06:44 and the Tutsis are at war with one another because they have 06:47 racial differences. 06:50 There's not a direct carryover, that's not apples and apples. 06:54 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, because you even see various passages, and I 06:56 wish one was at the tip of my tongue where, in the Mosaic 07:00 literature, in Deuteronomy and so forth, it says that when 07:02 there's a stranger that comes into 07:04 -- >>JAMES: Isaiah 56. 07:05 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, treat him, treat him carefully because you 07:08 yourselves were strangers in the land of Egypt, so clearly 07:11 -- >>JAMES: And they become part of the people, they take hold of 07:14 the covenant, they are 07:15 -- >>JEFFREY: They become part, it's not ethnic. 07:16 >>JAMES: Exodus 20, the 10 Commandments, the strangers in 07:19 thy gates. 07:20 >>TY: So, if it's not ethnic, if it's not genocide, why all the 07:24 killing in the Old Testament? 07:26 Well, I'd like to suggest that it's not ethnic issues that are 07:30 under consideration, but moral issues that are under 07:33 consideration. 07:35 For example, when we come to Psalm 106, alright, and we read 07:41 in verse 34 and onward, this'll make sense in our context now. 07:45 Listen to these words. 07:47 This is Psalm 106, starting with verse 34 where God is basically 07:53 saying, you didn't do what I said, I told you to destroy the 07:58 Canaanite tribes, and then he says in verse 34, they did not 08:03 destroy the people concerning whom the Lord had commanded 08:07 them, but they mingled with the Gentiles and learned their 08:11 works. 08:12 Okay, here's what God's concern is. 08:13 >>DAVID: What verse was that, Ty? 08:14 >>TY: Thirty-four and now I'm in 35. 08:16 The problem wasn't the ethnicity, the problem was that 08:21 they learned their works, and then it goes on in verse 36 and 08:23 says, they served their idols, which became a snare to them, 08:29 and then it says, the sacrificed even their sons and daughters to 08:35 demons and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and 08:39 daughters whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan and the 08:44 land was polluted with blood, thus they were defiled with 08:50 their own works and played the harlot by their deeds. 08:54 Do you see what's happening? 08:55 God is concerned, God is concerned here not with one 09:01 ethnic group versus another ethnic group, he's describing 09:05 the peoples of Canaan as people who are worshipping demons and 09:10 doing human sacrifice and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 09:12 Jeffrey, you had read earlier in our previous discussion all 09:16 kinds of dastardly deeds that were being committed. 09:19 >>JEFFREY: Sexual perversion between humans and animals and 09:22 so forth. 09:23 >>TY: Yeah, all that stuff going on and God's concern here is, 09:25 I'm pulling Israel out not because I'm playing favorites 09:31 with ethnic groups, I'm pulling Israel out to be a blessing to 09:34 the whole earth. 09:36 I'm gonna teach this people group new ways of relating. 09:39 I'm gonna teach them the ways of love and goodness toward their 09:43 fellow human beings. 09:44 And that's the thing that's gonna be a blessing to all the 09:47 other nations if we can pull out a subgroup of humanity, educate 09:53 them as kings and priests, and send them back in. 09:55 That's God's, that's God's plan, and they're being polluted by 10:00 partaking of these horrible actions. 10:04 So, now we know what's behind, it's a moral issue that's at 10:09 stake, it's not an ethnic issue that's at stake. 10:13 >>DAVID: The other thing about, that's a great point. 10:15 It's a hugely important clarification because, as we 10:17 read in our last episode, the, that sort of semi-humorous and 10:23 articulate characterization or mischaracterization of God by 10:28 Richard Dawkins, you know, one of the things that he says in 10:30 there is, you know, genocide, infanticide, et cetera, all of 10:33 that. 10:34 But that's not what's taking place here. 10:37 This is not drawing the line on ethnic boundaries, you know, or 10:40 like, okay, your nose is wider than the, you know, whatever, so 10:43 you're out, and your skin is too dark. 10:45 Several years ago, I went to Austria and we went to a place 10:48 in Austria called The Eagle's Nest, which was sort of the, one 10:52 of the places from which Hitler would repose, he would spend 10:56 time there and would plan these various strategies in the war 11:01 and they had these charts, there's a museum there, and they 11:04 literally had these charts that would depict how you could 11:09 discern between an Arian person and a Semitic person and they 11:13 had, you know, diagram after diagram of people, the shapes, 11:16 the profiles of people's noses and they would be like, okay, 11:20 if the nose is like this, they're out, and if the nose is 11:22 like this, they're in, and if their hair is like this, they're 11:25 out and if their hair is like, you're just like, really? 11:29 >>TY: Do I have the right nose, by the way? 11:31 >>DAVID: Yeah, you're in. 11:33 But 11:34 -- >>TY: It's just crazy. 11:36 >>DAVID: The point is is that people will draw lines wherever, 11:39 right? 11:39 But God isn't doing that. 11:41 Scripture says over and over and over again, God is no respecter 11:45 of persons, God is no respecter of persons, he shows no 11:47 partiality. 11:48 Paul in Romans, to the Jew and also to the Greek, to the Jew 11:50 and also to the Greek. 11:52 So, what's taking place, exactly as you've said there is not some 11:54 ethnic, arbitrary, skin color, nose size, hair texture, 11:58 whatever, it's saying, hey, look, I would prefer it if my 12:02 people didn't put their fresh born baby girls and boys into 12:08 the fire to a demon. 12:09 That's different than the size and shape of your nose. 12:13 And that behavior, it's demonic, it has to be absolutely 12:17 -- >>JEFFREY: Yeah, I'd prefer if children didn't grow up in 12:19 homes where mom and dad were engaged in sexual perversions 12:22 with animals, with beasts in the field. 12:25 >>TY: Or a culture in which women, from birth, are set 12:30 aside, this little girl and this little girl and this little 12:33 girl, we're gonna raise you for temple prostitution. 12:36 We're gonna worship our demon gods by coming to worship 12:39 service and performing sexual acts. 12:43 It's horrible, what's going on. 12:45 >>DAVID: That was close. 12:47 We ended our last program also by saying that, to some degree, 12:50 the United States, for better and for worse and whether or not 12:54 they're perfectly consistent in their application, certainly 12:57 they're not. 12:58 But there's a sense even in which the US says, hey, we see 13:01 oppression here, we see injustice here, or Nato, and 13:03 they say, hey, we're gonna stop that, we're gonna stop that, 13:07 we're gonna stop that and while we might not agree with every 13:10 instance, the 13:12 -- >>TY: And certainly, we don't. 13:12 >>DAVID: We don't, absolutely. 13:15 The idea that you would intervene to protect the 13:19 hopeless and the, now, on that note, and I think we might have 13:24 to come back to this at some point, when we were on the last 13:27 episode, just afterward, we broke and one of our cameramen, 13:30 Josh, he said to me, hey, look, but in a previous episode, you 13:34 had said, you had spoken about the myth of redemptive violence. 13:38 The myth of redemptive violence, superheroes and these people 13:42 have done violence to us so we'll do greater violence to 13:44 them and everybody lives happily ever after. 13:46 He says, how is that not, in some sense, an infraction of the 13:51 very principle that you laid down in an earlier episode. 13:53 Maybe not right this moment, but I think we need to take that up, 13:55 it's a great question. 13:57 >>JAMES: Romans 13 addresses that question, by the way. 13:58 >>JEFFREY: I wanted to say something, you mentioned that 14:01 it's not favoritism that God exercised, and I think there's a 14:06 powerful point here in that that's evident in the Old 14:09 Testament narrative because whenever Israel, God's own 14:12 favored people, quote unquote, would teeter on the edge of the 14:18 very things that these societies were engulfed in, what happens? 14:22 The Assyrian captivity, Babylonian captivity. 14:26 It just shows that the same moral foundation and standard, 14:30 by which God held other nations accountable, he also held his 14:34 own people accountable. 14:36 >>DAVID: Good point. 14:36 That shows it's not a favoritism. 14:38 >>JEFFREY: It's not favoritism, it's objective. 14:40 If Israel 14:42 -- >>TY: I've never seen that before, that is such a good 14:43 point. 14:44 >>JEFFREY: If Israel is not firing on all cylinders, if 14:46 Israel loses the plot, what happens to Israel? 14:48 Israel is in trouble and God, what does God do? 14:51 God says, Assyria, king of Babylon, come, you need to take 14:55 care of these people because they've lost the plot. 14:57 >>JAMES: And that's right in the context of 106. 15:00 >>DAVID: Okay, that's what I was just gonna say. 15:02 See, Ty started us off in Psalm 106, we read verses 34-39, which 15:05 is great. 15:06 The primary concern that the psalmist is raising here in 15:09 Psalm 106 is not so much the behavior of the non-Jewish 15:14 nations, it's the behavior of, they learned these practices. 15:18 And verse 40 says, therefore, the wrath of the Lord was 15:22 kindled against his people. 15:23 That is to say, the Jewish nation, so that he abhorred his 15:27 own inheritance and he gave them into the hand of the Gentiles. 15:30 That's the very thing you're talking about. 15:31 And to those who hated them to rule over them. 15:34 Their enemies also oppressed them, and they were brought into 15:37 subjection under their hand. 15:39 Many times he delivered them, but they rebelled in their 15:43 council and they were brought low for their iniquity. 15:45 So, this is exactly your point. 15:46 >>JEFFREY: This is powerful. 15:47 >>DAVID: He's totally, he's egalitarian, he's fair, he's 15:50 just. 15:50 >>JAMES: He's impartial. 15:52 >>JEFFREY: If we were to line up all the books of the Old 15:53 Testament, a big chunk of them would be, especially some of 15:56 the, many of the minor prophets and some of the major prophets 15:59 >>JAMES: Isaiah, Jeremiah. 16:00 >>JEFFREY: They're dealing with issues revolving captivity. 16:03 There's the pre-exilic prophets, then there's the post-exilic 16:08 prophets and a lot of, this just occurred to me, I don't know if 16:11 you guys see anything in this, but much of our Old Testament is 16:17 the prophets addressing the issue of why is this happening 16:22 to us when we're your people? 16:24 And God's reply is the same standard by which I hold the 16:29 Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, accountable with, 16:32 that's the same standard I hold you accountable. 16:35 Why are you in captivity? 16:36 Because this is not favoritism. 16:38 >>TY: You're operating on principles that tend toward 16:40 captivity. 16:41 >>DAVID: He that leads into captivity will go into 16:43 captivity. 16:44 There's a principle there. 16:45 Ty, you had something you were gonna say. 16:46 >>TY: Yeah, I was gonna just respond to something Jeffrey 16:50 said that's just popped into my mind, actually, during the 16:53 break, and then, it fits perfectly here. 16:55 In Genesis 15, you have God interacting with Abraham, or 17:00 Abram at this point, and he tells Abram that your posterity, 17:06 your people are gonna go into captivity at some point, and 17:10 when they're in captivity, they will be oppressed, they will be 17:16 mistreated, God is not in favor of this oppression or 17:19 mistreatment, he's simply saying, this is what's going to 17:21 happen. 17:23 And then, it's very interesting, it says that God is going to 17:30 interact with the people in such a way that he says something 17:35 fascinating, he says here that the cup, or the iniquity of the 17:41 Amorites is not yet full. 17:45 Okay, this is a fascinating, biblical idea. 17:48 The iniquity of the Amorites that's not yet full, and that's 17:51 in Genesis 15 and verse 16. 17:53 >>DAVID: The Amorites are those who were occupying the land that 17:55 God had promised to Abraham. 17:56 >>TY: This tells us that God wasn't even quick to judge or to 18:01 move against those who were, kinda like the Sodom and 18:05 Gomorrah thing. 18:06 All this evil was going on, God is not quick to even judge the 18:10 Amorites. 18:11 He's saying, maybe this can turn, maybe these people will 18:14 change, maybe this is gonna go a different direction. 18:16 The iniquity isn't yet full. 18:19 In other words, they haven't reached what you said earlier, 18:22 David, the irredeemable point. 18:24 It's not irrevocable yet. 18:26 They haven't crossed the point of no return. 18:28 So, it's as if God is looking on in these cultures and God is 18:32 saying, my heart wants to pull them back from the direction 18:38 they're going. 18:38 And there's still hope. 18:40 Nope, they just crossed a line. 18:42 There's no hope now, I can't redeem that culture, now that 18:47 culture only serves one purpose, to infect others. 18:51 >>JAMES: You know what's really interesting about that? 18:52 >>JEFFREY: I need to say something about that. 18:54 I need to say something, so you need to jump in real quick. 18:56 >>JAMES: Okay, you know what's really interesting about this? 18:58 From the context of Genesis and Abraham's experience? 19:01 Here's something that's really interesting. 19:02 Abraham's a representative of God. 19:05 In fact, he's the representative of God on planet earth, okay? 19:07 Sodom and Gomorrah, before it's destroyed, two things happen 19:11 with Sodom and Gomorrah. 19:12 The first thing that happens is, they have a big battle. 19:15 The kings of Sodom and Gomorrah are in a battle and they lose, 19:19 and Lot and all of the cities there, they all go into 19:23 captivity. 19:24 Guess who rescues them. 19:25 >>TY: Abraham. 19:27 >>JAMES: Abraham rescues them. 19:28 Okay, number one, God inspires and strengthens and gives 19:33 Abraham wisdom to rescue. 19:34 He's like a king, I'm saying king and priest, because he's 19:37 like a king, he rescues Sodom and Gomorrah and all of the 19:41 inhabitants. 19:42 Second thing that happens, the angels come down to check out 19:44 what's going on and they tell Abraham what they're going to do 19:49 and Abraham intercedes. 19:51 >>TY: For the very people that 19:53 -- >>JAMES: He rescues them, he intercedes, and this is God, 19:55 this is God, I wanna rescue them from their enemies, I wanna 19:58 intercede for them, I wanna do everything I can and Abraham, 20:02 you said ten, I would even go down to 5, I would go down to 4. 20:07 He stopped asking. 20:07 He stopped asking. 20:08 >>TY: It's as if Abraham is coming against them and then 20:14 he's interceding for them. 20:15 I think of this story, just put this 20:18 -- >>JAMES: No, not coming against them, he was fighting on 20:21 their behalf. 20:21 >>DAVID: Coming against their enemies. 20:24 >>TY: Coming against their enemies and delivering them, 20:26 okay, but then I was on a different point. 20:29 [Laughter] 20:32 >>JEFFREY: Should've never clarified that. 20:33 >>TY: What was your point, Jeffrey? 20:35 >>DAVID: We gotta take a break. 20:38 >>JEFFREY: This'll be quick. 20:39 In verse 13, I'm still in Genesis 15, it's predicted that 20:45 the descendants of Abraham will be strangers in a foreign land 20:48 for 400 years, this is the Egyptian captivity. 20:52 And then, following further is the passage that you brought up. 20:55 Okay, the people of God will be in captivity. 20:58 And then, he mentions the iniquity of the Amorites is not 21:02 yet full. 21:03 Then, when you get to the last verses of that chapter, a list 21:07 of different people groups are mentioned. 21:09 The Amorites are included in that. 21:11 These are people that are in the way, in route, in between the 21:14 people of God in Egypt and the promised land, right? 21:18 So, here's what I'm saying. 21:19 I remember reading that meanwhile, God's people are 21:23 captive in bondage in Egypt and God leaves them there, he leaves 21:29 them there. 21:30 Why? 21:31 Because he knows that when he delivers his people out of 21:35 Egypt, they will have to journey in order to get to Canaan and, 21:38 as they journey, they will encounter these different people 21:42 groups. 21:43 God knows that there are heathen people groups whose iniquity is 21:46 not yet full. 21:47 He's willing to lead his people in Egypt, in bondage. 21:52 His favored people who get the favorite treatment, they're left 21:58 in Egypt out of mercy to these different tribal groups whose 22:03 iniquity is not yet full and only when they make full of 22:08 their iniquity are God's people ready to be delivered. 22:11 And I think that that's a powerful token of God's mercy 22:17 and longsuffering and it argues the exact opposite. 22:21 In that configuration, who is getting favorite treatment? 22:25 The people of God or the enemies of God's people. 22:28 The enemies of God's people are being treated with favoritism 22:33 above his own people, at the expense of God's own people and 22:39 I just think that's another point to the same thing. 22:42 >>JAMES: Well, that's where we are right now, we're in this 22:44 world, we're in bondage. 22:45 God is fighting for us, God is wanting to deliver not just good 22:49 people, but people that aren't going in the right direction and 22:53 that's why Christians are to fight for those same people and 22:57 intercede for those same people in 2 Timothy, it says we should 23:00 intercede for kings and for all that are in authority, we should 23:02 pray for them and supplicate for them. 23:04 I think all of these principles are not just a revelation of 23:07 God's heart but a revelation of our own hearts and I think one 23:09 of the ways we understand this to be a revelation of God's 23:12 heart is because we begin to sense the way that we're 23:14 supposed to relate to people and individuals and nations and 23:19 other belief systems in the way that we react and respond to 23:24 their teachings, et cetera. 23:25 >>TY: That's where we have to take a break because we've gotta 23:30 go by the clock, we're pretty excited, though. 23:33 [Music] 23:41 Announcer: Want a seat at the table? 23:42 Well, you're certainly invited. 23:44 Visit our website at lightbearers.org. 23:47 In fact, you may wanna make it your homepage because we're 23:50 always adding something new to strengthen your relationship 23:53 with Jesus. 23:55 At lightbearers.org, you'll find thought-provoking blogs and 23:59 verse-by-verse bible studies on a variety of vital topics. 24:03 Our online resource center has an excellent lineup of books, 24:07 CDs, and DVDs that present God's word with clarity and power. 24:13 Our presenters include, Jeffery Rosario, James Rafferty, David 24:20 Asscherick, Ty Gibson, and more. 24:23 We also maintain an archive of audio and video messages you can 24:28 access free of charge. 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[Music] 25:37 >>DAVID: Probably one of the best known verses in the bible, 25:40 especially among believers is Joshua chapter 24 verse 15, as 25:44 for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. 25:47 In that very same chapter, Joshua chapter 24, just a few 25:51 verses before that in verse 12, we encounter this verse, it's an 25:55 interesting verse and it's a verse that is very much in 25:58 keeping with what we're seeing here. 26:00 We ended on the iniquity of the Amorites not yet full, Jeffrey 26:02 was talking about the impartiality that God showed to 26:07 the degree that even inconvenienced, and that would 26:11 be a mild word, his own people to wait for some invisible 26:17 threshold to be crossed, and yet, when that threshold was 26:20 crossed, and we should probably just give a little background 26:23 here for those that maybe don't know the bible as well as 26:25 others, the first 5 books, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, 26:30 Numbers, Deuteronomy, are written by Moses, and they tell 26:32 a number of stories, but the main story is the story of the 26:35 Exodus, right? 26:36 That Hollywood's just getting ready to make this movie, right, 26:39 on Moses, and it's called The Exodus, the coming out, it comes 26:43 from ex, like exit, out, and the people of God have been in 26:47 Egyptian captivity, the decedents of Abraham and Isaac 26:50 and Jacob are now coming out of Egypt, they go to a mountain 26:53 called Sinai, God gives them, you know, sort of instructions, 26:56 he give them the law, he gives them the sanctuary, and it comes 26:59 time for them to take possession of the land that God had 27:03 promised to Abraham hundreds of years before, several hundred 27:05 years before. 27:07 But that, it's not a vacant land, it's not a land that has 27:10 nobody in it. 27:11 It's going to require not only their possession, but the 27:14 dispossession of the people groups that are there, and now 27:17 we have reached the point, that invisible threshold known only 27:20 to God where these cultures and the peoples in those cultures 27:23 have become largely irredeemable. 27:25 Now, I say largely, almost entirely irredeemable. 27:27 I say that because then we come to the book of Joshua and 27:30 Joshua, if you can think of Moses as getting the children of 27:35 Israel to the borders of the Canaan land, Joshua is the one 27:37 that gets them over the borders, into the promised land, and it 27:42 is fascinating because one of the first stories that we're 27:44 introduced to is the story of Rahab, Rahab the harlot, and the 27:49 story of Rahab is the spies have gone in, they're looking at the 27:52 land, how are we going to militarity conquer, et cetera, 27:55 and Rahad is somebody who affirms faith and confidence in 27:59 the God of Israel. 28:00 She's preserved. 28:01 So, this little instance demonstrates the heart of God, 28:05 the patience of God, the accommodation of God, but what I 28:09 wanna point out is Joshua chapter 24, this is coming out 28:12 of the end of the book of Joshua, the dispossession has 28:15 largely taken place, and it says this in verse 12, pick it up in 28:21 verse 11. 28:22 Then, you went over the Jordan and came to Jericho, that's 28:24 Rahab. 28:25 And the men of Jericho fought against you also and here's that 28:28 list that Jeffrey had pointed out, the Amorites, the 28:30 Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Girgashites, the 28:32 Hivites, and the Jebusites, but I delivered them into your hand. 28:35 Look at this verse 12, I sent the hornet before you, which 28:39 drove them out from before you, also the two kings of the 28:43 Amorites, but not with your sword, or with your bow. 28:47 I have given you a land for which you did not labor and 28:50 cities which you did not build, and dwell in them. 28:53 You eat of vineyards and olive groves which you did not plant. 28:56 Now, therefore, fear the Lord, serve him in sincerity and in 28:59 truth and put away the gods which your fathers served on the 29:01 other side of the river and in Egypt, serve the Lord, and 29:04 here's the classic verse that so many know, and if it seems evil 29:07 to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you 29:11 will serve, whether the gods, and we've already seen that 29:13 those were demons, which your fathers served that were on the 29:16 other side of the river or the gods of the Amorites in whose 29:18 land you now dwell, but as for me and my house, we will serve 29:20 the Lord. 29:21 And a fascinating idea here is this idea of the hornet. 29:25 There were instances in scripture, not every instance, 29:27 Joshua simplifies the history here, in which God appears to 29:33 have preferred that he do the driving out, that it not be a 29:37 military conquest, think of going back to Jericho, when they 29:41 conquered Jericho, it wasn't with the sword, it wasn't with 29:44 the boy, it was with worship. 29:46 I know that sounds wild, but they're walking around Jericho 29:49 for, with the ark, right? 29:52 And the trumpets for 7 days and the walls fall. 29:54 That's a supernatural act. 29:56 That's not the Israelites going in and piercing with the sword 29:59 or whatever, you know, the other instruments of war that are 30:01 used, these terrible instruments that are designed to cause 30:03 death, this is God doing something. 30:05 But as the story progresses, and again, here Joshua gives a 30:07 truncated version, the Israelites themselves become 30:13 involved in the dispossession and then, as we go to the rest 30:16 of the Old Testament, it becomes David, a man of war, and then 30:21 we'll get to the book of Judges and it's a violent culture, a 30:25 violent situation, a violent society, and finally God's like, 30:27 alright, we'll do it your way. 30:30 There's that accommodations thing. 30:32 >>JEFFREY: And that's hard. 30:33 >>DAVID: Well, the hornet thing, to me, is fascinating because 30:35 God is essentially saying here, if you would rely totally and 30:39 completely on me and not needing a king who will ride into battle 30:42 with his shiny sword and his white horse, I will fight for 30:45 you. 30:46 It won't be, he says, by your sword or with your bow. 30:49 And there were instances where that's what occurred. 30:52 He cites the two kings of the Amorites. 30:54 >>TY: These were worrier cultures, these were cultures of 30:59 brutality and these were people that conducted their political 31:06 affairs in brutal ways and even the people that God is 31:13 endeavoring to work with, Israel, they're recently slaves 31:18 in Egypt and that is simply to say that they don't have a 31:25 history of building up and establishing just political 31:31 process, just culture. 31:33 They don't have a civil system. 31:35 >>JEFFREY: They're products of their own society. 31:37 >>TY: Yeah, they don't have conflict resolution at a high 31:40 level, they have conflict resolution at a low level. 31:43 At a brutal level. 31:45 And so, while God would rather the Canaanite nations not be 31:52 conducting themselves in the brutal ways that they are and 31:56 incorporate them into Israel as quickly as possible with these 31:59 higher principles of love for God and love for others, that 32:05 would've been God's first rule for these cultures, like 32:06 Nineveh, to repent and be incorporated into Israel, but 32:10 they're irredeemable at some point, and then, the very people 32:14 that God is working with have to go through an educational 32:16 process. 32:17 I have to teach you and so, you find in the 5 books of Moses, 32:21 part of it is that he's setting up a judicial system. 32:25 He's saying, we're gonna have judges and if there's a conflict 32:27 between two people, the way we're gonna resolve it is you're 32:30 gonna come and you're gonna present the problem before the 32:33 judges 32:34 -- >>DAVID: IT's very democratic. 32:35 >>TY: Yeah, and the judges are going to think through all the 32:37 factors and they're going to rule and you're going to obey 32:39 the judgements that they pass. 32:42 So, God is operating, as you would expect with God, a very 32:46 sophisticated level of justice, they're operating at a very low 32:50 level of justice and God is trying to bring the people up in 32:55 their way of conflict, resolving conflict and that takes time, 33:00 God's only other option would be to have no people. 33:03 >>DAVID: Well, we tried that with the flood. 33:05 Now, we're back here. 33:06 We're already back here after the flood. 33:08 He's already started with a little embryonic family of Noah 33:11 and we're just a few hundred years later and we're here 33:15 again. 33:16 And is there a more difficult or even discouraging book in the 33:21 bible than the book of Judges? 33:23 >>TY: I don't think so. 33:24 >>DAVID: The book of Judges is rough. 33:26 >>TY: It's very rough. 33:27 >>DAVID: When it comes to this topic, exactly, and I think we 33:33 should look at a story in the book of Judges, but the whole 33:35 book of Judges. 33:36 There is a stark contrast between the book of Joshua, 33:41 where you have a largely obedient people that are winning 33:43 victory after victory, obedient to the Lord, and then, the book 33:46 of Judges is quite the opposite. 33:47 >>JAMES: There's strange stuff going on in there. 33:48 I mean, what is the stuff you see going on in there? 33:50 It seems like God is saying, you know, this is okay and this is 33:54 okay and this is okay, what are those things 33:56 -- >>DAVID: He's not, he's not, okay, just, you can summarize 33:59 the book of Judges by looking at the last verse of the book of 34:02 Judges. 34:03 The last verse of the book of Judges, the author of Judges, 34:06 whoever wrote, we don't know who this was, some say it may have 34:08 been Samuel. 34:09 We don't know who wrote the book of Judges. 34:11 >>JEFFREY: Which is always a good principle to read the last, 34:12 the closer. 34:13 >>DAVID: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 34:14 >>JEFFREY: The closer normally tells you something about, what 34:16 was the point? 34:17 >>DAVID: Well, in the closer, my point is this, the author of 34:21 Judges, whoever it was, is clearly writing with a purpose 34:25 and he's not just telling, or she's, probably he's, not just 34:29 telling a story for some, you know, he's not just telling a 34:34 history, a general, you know, unimpassioned, uninvested 34:37 history. 34:39 No, he's telling a very specific moral story and this is the 34:42 moral story that he's telling. 34:43 Judges chapter 21, verse 25, it is this, in those days, there 34:47 was no king in Israel and everyone did what was right in 34:50 his own eyes. 34:51 That's the book of Judges, 21 chapters and that refrain occurs 34:57 over and over and over again. 34:59 He'll say it, I think, at least 5 or 6 times, everyone did what 35:01 was right in his own eyes, what was right in his own eyes, what 35:04 was right in his own eyes. 35:05 So, this introduces us to an idea that's hugely important and 35:08 that is the difference between prescriptive stories and 35:13 descriptive stories. 35:14 >>JAMES: Okay, break that up for us, what do you mean by that? 35:16 >>DAVID: Okay, basically, the bible consists of tales, 35:19 stories, we've talked about this, the humanity of Moses, the 35:23 humanity of David, the humanity of Abraham, their doubt, their 35:26 unbelief, their confidence, you know, the highs and the lows. 35:30 And because the bible is lots of stories that make up a big 35:35 story, not all the things that happened were always nice and 35:39 neat and rosy and sweet and everybody's doing exactly the 35:42 right thing, Abraham lied and David was a bloodied man and 35:45 Moses was a murderer. 35:46 >>JAMES: So, that's describing. 35:47 >>DAVID: That's describing. 35:48 There are stories in the bible that are simply describing, this 35:52 is what happened. 35:53 It's a factual report of what is or what was. 35:58 >>TY: So, that's descriptive. 35:59 >>DAVID: That's descriptive, it's describing. 36:01 The other kind of story in the bible is also descriptive, but 36:05 there's a prescriptive element, in the same way that a doctor 36:07 would write you a prescription, you know, take two of these, 36:10 call me in the morning, a prescription. 36:11 Do this. 36:13 And so, for example, the book of Daniel is maybe the classic book 36:18 in the Old Testament, there are other examples, but the book of 36:20 Daniel is one that was clearly crafted. 36:23 There's an architecture, there's a symmetry, a beauty to the book 36:25 of Daniel, in which it has, this is not only what did happen, but 36:30 this is an example for you. 36:31 So, you have, for example, Daniel chapter 1, they didn't 36:34 eat the king's food and God blessed them. 36:36 That's not just telling you what happened, it's telling you that 36:39 they did right. 36:40 Daniel chapter 3, the Shaddrack, Meshach, and Abednego would not 36:42 bow down to the image, that's not only a historical event, 36:45 it's a moral prescription, you should behave in the save way. 36:48 So, to Daniel chapter 6, Daniel in the lion's den. 36:51 So, when we read a story in the bible, if we're like, whoa, and 36:55 there are some whoa stories in the book of Judges. 36:57 We need to ask ourselves the question, is this a description 37:01 of what was as a warning or merely a report, in the case of 37:05 Judges, as a warning against pursuing our own ways, or is 37:08 this not only a description, but a prescription of how we should 37:13 act. 37:14 >>JAMES: And what you're saying, too, is possibly, the last verse 37:17 is telling us, by and large, this is a description. 37:21 >>DAVID: Absolutely right. 37:22 >>JEFFREY: Good point. 37:23 That's a big hint right there. 37:24 >>DAVID: Because even the heroes of Judges, Samson's one of the 37:27 great heroes of Judges, man, this guy is as human as they 37:30 come. 37:31 He's, you know, lust-filled, he's violent, he fails over and 37:37 over again, he basically ruins his life, he ends his life by 37:38 committing suicide. 37:40 >>JAMES: Wouldn't have even known that he was in unless we 37:42 read Hebrews chapter 11. 37:43 Hebrews chapter 11 37:44 -- >>DAVID: Yeah, exactly. 37:45 >>JAMES: 37:46 --indicates all that was there. 37:47 >>JEFFREY: Another way to say that is, it is and ought, right? 37:50 It is and ought. 37:51 You're reading scripture, much of it is describing it is what 37:54 is, this is what is happening, but you have to distinguish that 37:57 from what God thinks ought to have been happening. 38:00 There's another point I wanted to make on this that I think is 38:02 really powerful, and that is regarding the descriptive nature 38:07 of scripture, that there's a tone of genuineness and 38:12 authenticity, basically, these are biographies, these are 38:16 biographical sketches. 38:17 Many of them are sweeping sketches, but they're 38:19 biographical sketches and some are autobiographical sketches. 38:22 Now, here's the interesting thing, that when you compare the 38:26 Hebrew scriptures and even the New Testament with, say, 38:29 Egyptian literature. 38:32 This is a piece of ancient literature, right? 38:34 Compare this literature with Egyptian, and there's a huge 38:38 difference, where this is like dirty laundry on the table. 38:42 And whereas you read these other ancient literatures and 38:46 it's propaganda, it's basically highlighting all of the ups, but 38:50 there seems to be an absence of all of the doubts whereas the 38:54 bible, it's all on the table, and I always tell the students 38:58 in the class, if you wanted to learn the worst of the Jews in 39:03 their history, who would you have to consult to tell you that 39:05 story? 39:06 The Jews themselves. 39:08 In other words, all of the apostles and disciples in the 39:11 New Testament, they themselves report on their own dirty 39:15 laundry. 39:16 So, anyway, just to point on that description, I think that's 39:18 the tone of authenticity there. 39:20 >>JAMES: I think it's powerful because, even today, our media 39:23 is moving in that direction. 39:24 You know, most of the television shows on TV today are not these 39:28 Hollywood productive, you know, where everything's just perfect 39:31 and right, it's just real TV. 39:34 People are just done with all that fake stuff and the bible is 39:39 a real book that tells real stories about real people in 39:44 real time. 39:45 >>TY: Yeah, let's give an example right before the break, 39:48 because we've talked about the is ought principle, the 39:52 descriptive versus prescriptive, and you were in Judges, so what 39:57 about Judges chapter 11, verses 29 and onward, you have a story 40:03 here, I'll just summarize the story. 40:05 There's this guy named Jephthah and he enters into some kind of 40:12 very odd deal, he thinks, with the Lord. 40:15 An oath, and he says, yeah, he's won a battle and he says, ah, 40:21 I'm so glad that I won this battle, the first thing that 40:25 walks through my door, I will sacrifice to the Lord. 40:28 Now, some people look at that and they say, wow, the bible is, 40:33 what is God up to here? 40:34 God is requiring, no, it's just describing what this guy was 40:38 doing. 40:39 His daughter walks in the door. 40:40 So, then he feels obligated to follow through and perform a 40:43 human sacrifice to sacrifice his daughter. 40:46 And he does, he sacrifices her. 40:48 The question is, is this descriptive or prescriptive? 40:52 >>JEFFREY: That's an example of somebody being stupid. 40:56 And then, there's a period at the end of that sentence. 41:00 That's it. 41:01 >>DAVID: An exclamation point. 41:02 And this is a good example of, okay, and we know that it's 41:06 prescriptive, and I'll close with this, because we've already 41:08 quoted from Jeremiah, and I'll find that text in the break, 41:10 where God says, this idea of child sacrifice, never came into 41:14 my mind. 41:15 So, you think that's to the Lord? 41:18 >>TY: He's making a human sacrifice, he thinks, to the 41:23 Lord, and that's recorded in scripture, and the whole time, 41:26 the Lord is like, I don't want that, why are we doing this? 41:29 Absolutely not. 41:30 So, it's describing what happened, it's not telling us 41:34 what we ought to do. 41:35 >>JAMES: That's a great example. 41:36 >>TY: So, let's take a break and we'll come back for our third 41:40 and final segment of this conversation. 41:43 [Music] 41:50 Announcer: A Light in Zambia is a moving video documentary that 41:54 traces the stories of 5 amazing African men and women who 41:57 encountered Christ through the powerful medium of gospel 42:01 literature. 42:02 To receive your free copy, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light 42:08 Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 42:14 Simply ask for the Zambia DVD. 42:17 [Music] 42:26 [Music] 42:27 , I had mentioned 42:30 there's a text in Jeremiah that I've alluded to a couple times, 42:32 about God saying that this idea of child sacrifice hadn't even 42:36 come into his mind. 42:37 And I just wanna read those two texts, Jeremiah chapter 19, 42:41 verse 5, it says, they have built also the high places of 42:45 Baal to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to 42:49 Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come to my 42:54 mind. 42:55 Then, Jeremiah chapter 32, verse 35, very similar text, they 42:59 built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the 43:03 son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and daughters to pass 43:05 through the fire to Malach, which I did not command them, 43:09 nor did it come into my mind that they should do this 43:12 abomination to cause Judea to sin. 43:14 >>JAMES: Where was that second one, Jeremiah what? 43:15 >>DAVID: Jeremiah 32:35. 43:17 So, he says, Baal, they're offering their sons and 43:20 daughters to Baal. 43:21 I never said that, it didn't even come into my mind. 43:23 They're offering their sons and daughters to Malach through the 43:26 fire, no, that's not even coming into my mind. 43:30 >>JEFFREY: So, some would say God himself is shocked, you 43:34 know, he himself is shocked at the same things that we would be 43:37 shocked with. 43:38 >>DAVID: Well, he certainly finds it abhorrent, he says as 43:40 much. 43:42 That is what he means when he uses the idiom there, because 43:44 God knows all things. 43:45 In other words, he's saying, that kind of intention, that, 43:48 no, no, no, no, and no, no. 43:51 >>TY: God is navigating horrific evil. 43:55 He's dealing with people who have it in their hearts to do 44:01 these kinds of things and he's interacting with them in such a 44:05 way as to redeem all that possibly can be redeemed from 44:10 those kinds of actions. 44:12 He's not himself, the source and the origin, it's not in his 44:16 heart, as it says, it never came to my mind. 44:17 I'm not that kind of god. 44:19 >>JAMES: I don't think that way. 44:21 I love it. 44:22 >>DAVID: Jeffrey, you had said that there is a text in Numbers. 44:23 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, there was, a really gnarly, if you could use 44:26 that. 44:27 >>DAVID: Oh, gnarly, he just brought gnarly out. 44:30 >>JEFFREY: There's a gnarly text. 44:31 >>DAVID: That's a white boy word. 44:32 >>JEFFREY: When in Rome, you know. 44:35 [Laughter] 44:38 >>DAVID: For shame, for shame, for shame, for shame. 44:40 >>JEFFREY: In Numbers 5, there's this crazy passage, it's called 44:44 the law of jealousy and I just wanna walk through this passage, 44:48 I think this is a great example of something that sounds crazy 44:52 at the surface level, but if we were to put ourselves in that 44:57 world, in God's shoes, where he has to, you know, deal with the 45:00 structures he has available, we can at least begin to grasp 45:05 something here. 45:06 So, I just kinda 45:07 -- >>JAMES: The law of what? 45:08 >>JEFFREY: It's called the law of jealousy. 45:09 That's what I call it, anyway. 45:10 Numbers chapter 5, so I'm gonna jump right in, instructions are 45:14 given to a husband who becomes jealous of his wife. 45:19 Jealous of his wife, suspicious that his wife's being unfaithful 45:24 to him. 45:25 Okay, so it says in verse 14, Numbers 5, for our viewers, if 45:29 the spirit of jealousy comes upon him, the husband, he 45:33 becomes jealous of his wife, who has defiled herself or if the 45:37 spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of 45:40 his wife, although she has not even defiled herself, in other 45:43 words, he doesn't know. 45:44 He's just suspicious. 45:45 Then, the man, verse 15, shall bring his wife to the priest, 45:49 okay, now skip, jump to verse 16, and the priest will bring 45:53 her near and set her before the Lord, verse 17, the priest will 45:57 take holy water in an earthen vessel and take some of the dust 46:02 that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it inside the 46:06 water, verse 18, then the priest shall stand the woman before the 46:09 Lord, uncover the woman's head and put the offering for 46:12 remembering in her hands, which is a grain offering of jealousy, 46:17 and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that 46:20 brings a curse, verse 19, and the priest shall put her under 46:25 oath and say to the woman, if no man has lain with you and if you 46:31 have not gone astray to uncleanness while under your 46:33 husband's authority, be free from this bitter water that 46:37 brings a curse. 46:38 But if you have gone astray while under your husband's 46:43 authority and if you have defiled yourself with some other 46:45 man other than your husband, who has lain with you, verse 21, 46:49 then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the 46:54 curse, he shall say to the woman, the Lord make you a curse 46:57 and an oath among your people when the Lord makes your thigh 47:01 rot and your belly swell. 47:05 And may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach 47:09 and make your belly swell and your thigh rot and the woman 47:13 shall say amen. 47:15 So be it. 47:16 Then the priest shall write these curses in a book and he's 47:19 gonna scrape them off into the bitter water and the woman has 47:22 to partake of this, shall I say, gnarly ceremony that takes 47:28 place. 47:29 >>DAVID: I remember I read this years ago, I had forgotten this 47:30 was in the bible and I 47:31 -- [Laughter] 47:33 I'm not pleased that you've reminded me that it's there. 47:36 >>JEFFREY: But here's the thing 47:37 -- >>DAVID: Are you gonna explain this? 47:39 >>JEFFREY: Well 47:40 -- >>DAVID: Because that would really make my day. 47:42 That would make my whole day. 47:43 >>JEFFREY: 47:45 --and we take great pleasure at the facial expressions, this is 47:48 a difficult passage, it's, this appears to be living in a 47:53 different world than we're accustomed to. 47:55 >>TY: Appears? 47:56 >>JEFFREY: Blatantly in a different world, so here's what 47:59 we always say to our students, 1 John chapter 4, verse 8. 48:02 >>DAVID: God is love. 48:03 >>JEFFREY: God is love, and then you get, then you got stuff like 48:06 that. 48:08 God is love, stuff like that. 48:11 that. 48:14 >>JEFFREY: And then, you know 48:16 -- >>DAVID: Do you provide any sort of resolve? 48:17 [inaudible chatter] 48:20 >>TY: We don't provide resolve and that's the genius of the 48:23 exercise that we do in the class, David. 48:25 What we do is, we say, read these two passages, God is love 48:29 and then read this and we give them no clues. 48:31 We say, now break up into groups of 3 or 4, you read those 48:35 passages and consistently, am I right, Jeffrey? 48:39 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, it happens almost every class. 48:40 >>TY: Consistently, they all read the passage and come to the 48:44 same conclusion on their own reading the passage. 48:47 >>JEFFREY: But they wrestle with it, they wrestle and they're 48:49 like, ugh. 48:50 >>JAMES: I wrote down a conclusion, I might not tell you 48:52 what it is because I don't wanna make a fool out of myself but I 48:54 want you to tell me what your answer is. 48:56 >>TY: I think it'd be fun if you were wrong. 48:57 >>DAVID: Just be a court jester, man. 49:00 >>JEFFREY: We're not, we think we know. 49:03 >>JAMES: Okay, you'll say it and I'll tell you if, I'll just say, 49:06 oh, yeah, that's exactly what I wrote. 49:07 >>JEFFREY: No, read it 49:09 -- >>TY: That would have the same effect, because if you tell 49:11 us, no, that's not what I said, then you're still kinda. 49:13 >>JAMES: But I don't have to tell everyone what I actually 49:15 said. 49:16 That's gonna save me. 49:17 >>TY: So, Jeffrey, break it down, what 49:18 -- >>DAVID: We should say, we mentioned going into class, 49:21 we're talking about Arise, the school that we 49:23 -- >>TY: Yeah, the Discipleship 49:24 -- >>DAVID: Discipleship school 49:26 [inaudible chatter] 49:27 >>JEFFREY: As we wrestle with the passage, what I think, 49:30 again, this is, we're approaching this from, you know, 49:33 ground is level here. 49:34 What I think what's going on in this passage is simply this, God 49:38 is operating in a patriarchal society where women don't have 49:43 access to the same rights that men do, and so, in this 49:47 scenario, if a woman would be accused of something 49:52 -- >>TY: She has no recourse. 49:53 >>JEFFREY: She's in trouble. 49:54 There's no systems in place within that structure to protect 49:58 the woman. 49:58 So, here, she has no defense. 50:00 So, here's what God does, God says, I don't trust broken men, 50:06 right? 50:07 Fallen men, to be able to cast judgement in these scenarios. 50:11 I will remove that prerogative from your social structure, from 50:17 your civil structure, we're gonna make this a spiritual 50:19 thing where it's gonna have to be a divine sign that will show 50:24 whether that woman is guilty or innocent in a form of protecting 50:28 the woman. 50:29 So, in that sense, there's an imperfect approach to God 50:34 expressing, this is an expression of God is love in 50:38 that God is protecting the oppressed, God is protecting 50:40 those that don't have rights and so on and so forth. 50:43 Now, and here's what we always say to the center, because 50:45 there's always 2 or 3 feminists in the class, right? 50:47 And they're like, wait a second, that's cute and all, but why 50:52 does the woman even have to be subjected to all of this? 50:54 To which, we would say... 50:56 >>TY: Because that's the culture she's living in. 50:59 >>JEFFREY: That's the world we live in. 51:00 Is that God's ideal? 51:01 Absolutely not. 51:03 So, God takes something that's terrible and he moves it several 51:06 notches towards his ideal. 51:09 Is it at the point of his ideal? 51:12 Absolutely not. 51:13 Now, that passage still drives me crazy and my wife isn't a big 51:16 fan of that passage either. 51:17 But here's the thing, the point is 51:20 -- >>DAVID: Funny that. 51:21 >>JEFFREY: But the point is, the point is, you can see how God is 51:26 trying to approach a redemptive process in a broken system 51:31 without totally moving too fast for the people for them to 51:36 follow. 51:37 It's not a perfect answer, I did say. 51:38 >>DAVID: And everybody comes to that conclusion? 51:40 >>TY: No, it's in the passage because it begins in verse 14 by 51:43 basically saying, the issue that God is dealing with is the 51:46 spirit of jealousy on the man's part and the woman may or may 51:51 not be guilty. 51:52 She could be being falsely accused by her husband. 51:54 And in that setting, and in that culture, a woman had no 51:57 recourse. 51:58 If the man says you've had an affair, you've been unfaithful 52:01 to me, and in his mind, his motive is, I just don't want 52:03 this woman anymore, I want another woman, I'm gonna trash 52:07 this woman because I have other motives, God is saying, wait a 52:11 minute, you're not gonna deal with the daughters of God in 52:15 this way. 52:16 We're going to implement in your setting a justice system in 52:20 which I will judge my daughters. 52:23 If she's guilty, it'll be known, if she's not, you are not going 52:28 to treat women like this where you just throw them away. 52:32 So, this is actually moving the culture in a direction that is 52:38 allowing for women to have recourse in a system in which 52:41 women have no recourse. 52:43 And yes, student after student after student comes to that 52:46 conclusion. 52:47 >>DAVID: That only proves that the students are smarter than 52:49 they 52:50 -- >>JEFFREY: Well, a different language, and we give them, 52:52 like, 30 minutes for that, but here's the 52:54 -- >>TY: We only gave you 5. 52:56 >>JEFFREY: Here's the point, though, we have to reemphasize 52:59 this. 53:00 At the end of the day, even that explanation is not squeaky 53:02 clean, like, I don't walk away from that passage thinking, oh, 53:05 I'm so glad, that makes me feel so good, it's still a very 53:09 difficult passage, and I think that's the point, is that God is 53:12 dealing with broken systems and even that explanation is God 53:16 moving it one step further towards his ideal. 53:20 That's the point of the passage, at least my explanation of the 53:23 passage. 53:24 >>TY: We can't avoid the fact that we're dealing with and God 53:27 is dealing with a very messy human situation, but we can be 53:33 absolutely certain that God interacting with us, when I say 53:39 us, I mean the human race as a whole, is to our great advantage 53:45 versus God simply washing his hands of the human race and 53:49 walking away, leaving us to our own devices. 53:50 So, it sure looks to me like God, in the accommodation 53:56 principle, is condescending to such a degree that he looks 54:00 guilty of things that he's not actually guilty of. 54:04 He's taking our sin upon himself, not just at the cross, 54:11 but he's taking our sin upon himself by interacting with us 54:15 in such a way that he looks like he's condoning things that, 54:19 ultimately, he's not condoning, but he has no choice but to 54:21 navigate through it with us. 54:23 >>JAMES: That's a big God. 54:24 >>DAVID: That's a very big God. 54:25 When you just said that line there about how we wouldn't have 54:28 even been, you know, you've basically got two options, God 54:30 to interact with us on our level, a way that we can 54:32 understand in various cultures, various times, various places, 54:35 situations, people, or to leave us alone, but we saw what 54:39 happened in the flood with that, you know, even there, by the 54:42 flood, and God hadn't left humanity entirely alone, we 54:44 wouldn't be here today is the point. 54:46 The race would've been extinguished. 54:48 Listen to this in Galatians chapter 5, Paul is coming to the 54:52 close of his argument in Galatians, and he summarizes, 54:54 and we've made this point before in another conversation, I'm in 54:56 verse 14, he summarizes the whole essence of the law, the 55:00 whole essence of the writings of Moses, the whole essence of the 55:04 Old Testament, the 10 Commandments, he says, for all 55:06 the law, Galatians 5:14, is fulfilled in one word, even 55:09 this, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. 55:12 That's those civil structures that, if everybody lived 55:15 according to that, they wouldn't need a king, they wouldn't need 55:17 a hierarchical, this accommodations principle, this 55:22 was truly, completely practiced, perfectly. 55:24 >>TY: Right. 55:26 >>DAVID: But then, he says in verse 15, but if you bite and 55:28 devour one another, beware, lest you be consumed by one another, 55:31 and that's kind of the idea here, that you're saying, if God 55:34 just let us go to our own devices, without coming to pull 55:38 us out of the muck, out of the mire, out of the confusion, oh, 55:42 we wouldn't make it to third base, we'd all 55:44 -- >>JEFFREY: We'd consume each other, yeah. 55:46 >>JAMES: In fact, you know, when I look at, for example, Matthew 55:49 20 forward, Jesus is speaking of the end time events, I notice, 55:54 and it's really interesting to me that he references to the 55:56 flood, and when we think of the flood in this context, this 55:59 question, we're thinking about why did God do that, but Jesus, 56:02 when he's referring to the flood, he's thinking, you know, 56:04 remember how bad it was in the days of, that's how bad it's 56:07 gonna be in the end of time. 56:08 That's why, when I come the second time, I'm coming to end 56:12 this because it's gonna be just like it was in the days of Noah, 56:14 it's gonna be that way again. 56:16 >>TY: Something that's helped me over the years to put myself, 56:19 can I say it this way, in God's mental space, in his emotional 56:24 space, how hard this is to navigate, is imagine that you 56:30 get a knock on your door and you open the door and there's a 56:33 police officer standing there, and he says, I have terrible 56:37 news for you, your son has been murdered. 56:41 Now, just for a minute, feel what you would feel hearing that 56:47 news. 56:48 You're angry, you're filled with rage, you're thinking, who did 56:50 this? 56:51 You want justice, the full extent of the law, and then, as 56:57 you're feeling all of that, the police officer says, and the 57:00 news is worse than that because the person who murdered your son 57:04 is your daughter. 57:06 Now, watch your emotional state change. 57:09 Now, suddenly, you're in this very difficult emotional space 57:16 where yes, justice, but, mercy. 57:22 And now, we realize that all human beings, to God, are sons 57:29 and daughters. 57:31 He's navigating a very difficult situation, he's dealing with all 57:37 of our muck and mire and ugliness and he's desperately 57:42 striving to save and to heal and to restore, but the only way he 57:47 can do it is to jump in with both feet and that's what we see 57:51 taking place in Jesus at the cross. 57:53 What Jesus, and his whole life, and then reaching its climax at 57:57 the cross. 57:58 Jesus reveals to us the character of God in all its 58:04 brilliant beauty by condescending to come very close 58:09 and to experience with us the suffering that we're going 58:14 through rather than to remain aloof and separated from all of 58:17 it. 58:18 I think what we see taking place in the whole narrative of 58:20 scripture is that the cross principle that we see manifest 58:26 in Christ and time and space at Calvary in AD 31, Jesus dying 58:30 for us, but maybe the whole form of God's character through the 58:36 Old Testament narrative is a self-sacrificing form that he's 58:41 taking by condescending, by interacting, by staying 58:44 connecting, by loving, loving, and accommodating our fallen 58:49 state. 58:51 The ultimate answer to the story of scripture and especially the 58:56 hard parts of the Old Testament is that, in Christ at Calvary, 59:00 we see that God is up close and personal and he's there with us. 59:04 [Music] 59:14 [Music] |
Revised 2016-04-14