[Music]
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[Music]
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going.
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Everybody ready, quiet on set
and start your move and action.
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>>TY: This particular question
that we're gonna raise right now
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for our conversation is one that
comes up for me in just about
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every Q&A session, no matter
where I go in the world, if you
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open it up for people and say,
hey, if you had any difficult
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question that you would like to
put forth regarding the bible,
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what would it be and everybody
asked the question, why is there
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so much killing
in the Old Testament?
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There are variations of this
question, some people just say,
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why is the God of the
Old Testament so brutal?
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Some people say, it sure seems
like there's a big difference
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between the God of the Old
Testament and the New Testament.
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What's going on here?
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The Old Testament looks crazy,
it looks insane, it looks like
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there's everything from genocide
to polygamy, slavery, and it
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looks like God is
condoning all of that.
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It looks like God is right
in the middle of all that and
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actually commanding some
of these horrible things.
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>>JEFFREY: And Jesus is
kind of caressing a lamb.
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>>TY: Meek and mild, he's
caressing a little lamb, that's
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right, he's meek and mild.
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>>JAMES: Some people would
say, is Jesus the God of the Old
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Testament?
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>>TY: Yeah, that
terminology is used, isn't it?
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The God of the Old Testament,
the God of the New Testament.
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So, it's a serious problem and I
believe that there are a lot of
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people who just hold the bible
and Christianity and God at
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arm's length and just say, no, I
can't go there, that is just too
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crazy, what's going
on in the Old Testament.
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So, we need to begin, I think,
by just confessing that it is a
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serious question,
it's a serious problem.
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We need to feel the weight of
it, as we said about some of the
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questions yesterday, it's a
weighty question, and we don't
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have, I think as we've explored
the subject individually and
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together, at times, we
don't have neat packaged little
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answers, little sound bites,
a sentence or two that would
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resolve all the mystery and have
everybody feel okay about what's
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going on.
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Jeffrey, what were you saying
one time when we were talking
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about it that we ought to feel,
we ought to feel something about
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what's going on
in these stories.
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>>JEFFREY: Yeah,
it's a messy thing.
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God is dealing with
fallen structures, fallen social
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structures, and I don't think
it's genuine or honest to think
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that just because we're
believers, we could read some of
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the really tough passages in
the Old Testament and just be
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totally fine with
it, unmoved, unaffected.
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I think we're supposed to,
yeah, untroubled, I think we're
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supposed to feel, like you said,
feel the force of what we're
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reading.
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Look, to be honest, everything's
in the Old Testament, and I'm
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just like, ugh, that's a
hard one for me to swallow.
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Like, what, I don't
understand what's going on.
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And I think that's okay.
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>>DAVID: It is okay and for
every person that Ty described
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that said, you know, that is
noncommittal about scripture,
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that's noncommittal about Jesus,
about Christianity, that's
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holding these things at arm's
length, for every one of those
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people, there's at least
one who loves Jesus, who loves
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scripture, who loves his word,
who is also troubled by these
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things in the Old Testament.
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Exactly, it's almost like that
relative that, you know, you
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just like, yeah, you know he's
related to you but you don't
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always invite him over.
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You know he's there, but he's
not like the top of the list
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when it comes time to, you
know, when you're sitting down,
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saying, hm, what am I gonna
preach a series on this, you
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know, you get an invitation
to a conference or a church or
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whatever, what am I gonna,
I think I'm gonna preach on
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genocide in the Old Testament.
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I think.
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>>TY: You just don't do
it, it doesn't occur to you.
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>>DAVID: That's my point.
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You're just, you're like, whoa,
and honestly, how many sermons
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do you hear on that?
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>>TY: It's so difficult that
I think most theologians and
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preachers just avoid it.
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>>JEFFREY: And that's a
complaint from the unbelieving
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community, isn't it,
that we pick and choose.
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>>DAVID: Yeah, you're being
disingenuous with your own text.
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>>JEFFREY: Yeah, we love to pick
and choose the pretty text, the
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nice text, the morally elevating
text, but we just skip around
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and avoid and skirt some of
the more difficult passages.
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>>DAVID: And a word about, Ty,
and I so appreciate you saying
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this, and I think we need to be
saying things like this more in
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the Christian faith, that not
every difficult question has a
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nice, neat, you know, square
edged platitudinous answer and
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you just put that block
right here and this block fits
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seamlessly right here, not just
with regards to this issue, we
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spent a couple episodes ago
wrestling through, if God is so
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forgiving, then why
did Jesus have to die?
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And I felt like we had great
clarity there, I loved that
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conversation.
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I went home rejoicing about that
conversation, but when it was
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done, it's not as though we had
solved the mystery of the nature
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of God and solved the mystery
of the nature of the cross.
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It was helpful, super helpful,
it was beautiful, it was
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awesome, it was edifying, it was
all of those things, but this
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isn't the only mystery.
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There's lots of mysteries in
scripture, but this is a mystery
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that seems, in some significant
degree, no, it doesn't seem, it
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is, in some significant degree,
out of character with the God
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that we've been talking
about through 8 episodes.
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>>JEFFREY: Can I just, I wanted
to reemphasize, as well, on that
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point, is that, it's not
merely that it's okay for us to
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struggle through these, through
this difficult terrain, but even
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in scripture itself, the
prophets, we said this in an
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earlier conversation, King David
in the Psalms, he's just like,
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God, you know, what's going on?
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Why, why?
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Are you deaf, are you blind?
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This is the kind of language
that the prophets themselves
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used.
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And I think that's a powerful
thing, and that shows to affirm
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that it's okay to struggle, it's
okay to wrestle, because if the
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prophets themselves struggled
and wrestled, what would we
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expect from those of us who are
readers who are encountering the
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words of the prophets.
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You would assume that we also
would walk away, many times,
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with that dilemma, that tension,
that's the word for me, there's
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a tension there that, I
think it's, it has to be there.
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>>TY: You literally have the
prophets filing complaints with
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God, crying out, how long
are you going to let this go on?
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And the prophets are so bold
at times as to say, God, why not
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this, this, or this?
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Making suggestions to
the monarch of the universe.
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I think you should just, you
know, cut to the chase and deal
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with it?
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David, at one point, Lord, why
don't you just lay waste to the
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wicked and stop all the evil
stuff going on in the world?
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Why do you let it go on?
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That's David's, I
think God can handle that.
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I think God wants us to
genuinely feel the gravity of
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how horrible the sin problem is.
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The problem is, is that we
oftentimes not reading the story
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as the story unfolds, we think
that God is the one who's the
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perpetrator of the evil in the
storyline, rather than the one
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who is in solidarity with
us, suffering through the evil.
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Do you see what I'm saying?
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We don't see God, we don't see
God as with us in the messy pain
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of earth's history and
navigating the problem, we see
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God just pouncing and pouncing
and pouncing, sitting up in
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heaven with his finger poised
over the zap button, so to
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speak, and just sitting
there waiting for somebody to do
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something he doesn't like and
arbitrarily saying, zap to you
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and zap to you and
boom, bam, take that.
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That picture of God is not the
one that emerges when you take
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in the storyline of scripture.
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>>JEFFREY: That's a great point,
James, if you need to jump in
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there, I think we should lay
that foundation very clearly,
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you just said, the storyline.
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It seems to me that the
difficult terrain of the Old
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Testament is even more difficult
when you just isolate a passage
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or a text from the Old
Testament, I mean, let's be
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honest, normally, when this is
presented as a difficulty, it's
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normally just lifted from the
page and analyzed in isolation
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as if it existed in a vacuum,
and I think what will come out
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of this conversation is,
when you view scripture as a
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narrative, as a story, as a
plot, there's main characters
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and there's an underlying
tension, controversy, to the
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whole narrative.
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Then, those specific passages,
I'm not saying we arrive at a
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squeaky clean
answer, but I think...
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>>TY: They begin to make what
we could call narrative sense.
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They don't make sense in
isolation, but they make sense
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within the narrative
that is unfolding, right?
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>>JAMES: I really like what you
were saying, Ty, about David,
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you know, the bible says David
was a man after God's own heart,
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which, to me, speaks volumes
about the kind of God we serve.
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And when you connect how David
struggled with the evil in this
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world, what was going on in this
world, I think what David is
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doing is he is giving us a
picture of the heart of God.
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You see the same thing in Job.
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Job is God's man.
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He's a perfect man, why?
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Because he's longing for his
children, he's sacrificing on
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behalf of his children every day
and Satan hates that picture of
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God, who doesn't sleep, who
gives the greatest sacrifice
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ever on behalf of us and as
Job goes through this trial, God
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doesn't, Job asks God the same
tough questions that David asks
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God.
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God doesn't get on Job's case,
per se, God even says in the
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end, Job is my man because Job
feels about sin the same way I
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feel about sin.
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David feels about all of
this evil the same way I feel.
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That man is a man
after my own heart.
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And so, God not only allows
but inspires David with this
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revelation that gives us a
picture of the heart of God, and
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to me, in the end, that's the
only answer that satisfies is,
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in the midst of all of this
evil, how does God feel about
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this?
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>>TY: We might even imagine that
as the prophets cry out, God,
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how long is this
evil gonna go on?
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We might even imagine God
resonating with that and saying,
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yeah, how long?
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>>JAMES: They're
his representatives.
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>>DAVID: Couple things that I
wanted to add to that, the first
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is that this whole conversation
that we're having, to me, one of
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the takeaways, it's a bit of a
tangential takeaway, but it's a
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takeaway nonetheless, is
that this speaks about the
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authenticity of scripture to me,
scripture doesn't come off as
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this, you know, squeaky
clean, spotless, legendary,
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embellished, everybody comes off
looking great, the heroes are
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awesome, they don't make
mistakes, they ride in on the
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white horse, they do everything
right, they ride out of town and
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all is well.
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No, we see many of the
chief characters of scripture
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presented in a less
than flattering light.
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And many of the chief instances
that the great stories in
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scripture where people are
sometimes painted in a less than
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flattering light.
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There are some exceptions, it's
very difficult to find anything
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that Daniel did that was amiss,
but you look at the life of
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David, and I say all the time,
what would we do without David
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in the Old Testament and
Peter in the New Testament?
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I think we would, I
would be tempted to despair.
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Because I'm just like, man, I
look at Peter and I think, oh,
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I'm so glad this guy's in the
New Testament, I need a guy like
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that.
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A loud mouth who gets the wrong
answer quite a little bit, who's
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overconfident.
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I need that guy there.
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And when I go to the Old
Testament and I see David, I'm
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like, man, what is he doing?
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You know, about
half of the time.
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And even Moses, you know, his
story starts off and he's just
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totally out of sync with
God's plan, he's murdering an
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Egyptian, he's gonna do it in
his own strength, Adam, I mean,
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this, the list goes on and on,
Abraham, thank you, and what I
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love about this is it
just bespeaks of, when I read
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scripture, I
think, that sounds real.
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The human, there's an
authenticity there, there's the
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ring of scripture.
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That's the first thing I wanted
to say, the second thing I
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wanted to say is, about
the isolated incidences.
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If you followed, you know, me
around with one of these GoPros,
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if you took a GoPro like this
and you followed me around for
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my whole life and you had an
incident of David's whole life,
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like in the same way that we
have a narrative of scripture
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here.
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If you had a narrative of David,
you could pick out instances in
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the life of David, even since
conversion, you could pick out
00:13:01.91\00:13:06.88
instances in my life and
they would be radically out of
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harmony with the overall
trajectory and direction of my
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life.
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You say, hey, what's he doing,
why are he and his wife here
00:13:16.42\00:13:18.09
arguing, what's that about?
00:13:18.09\00:13:19.96
And here, he's
spanking his child here?
00:13:19.96\00:13:22.10
And you know, why is
he committing this sin?
00:13:22.10\00:13:25.00
You see what I'm saying?
00:13:25.00\00:13:26.10
You know, you'd be like,
what, I thought this guy was a
00:13:26.10\00:13:28.10
Christian, but when you
take those, when you take those
00:13:28.10\00:13:32.71
incidences that could be lifted
from the overall story, out of
00:13:32.71\00:13:36.01
the narrative arc,
well, now we got a problem.
00:13:36.01\00:13:38.91
But you put them in the
narrative arc, does that excuse
00:13:38.91\00:13:41.12
me becoming
impatient with my wife?
00:13:41.12\00:13:43.18
Does it excuse me being
impatient with my children or
00:13:43.18\00:13:44.95
doing something that I know I
shouldn't, no, it doesn't excuse
00:13:44.95\00:13:48.09
it, but it gives it a context.
00:13:48.09\00:13:50.03
>>TY: This is a
super, super important point.
00:13:50.03\00:13:53.90
Jeffrey has brought
this to our attention.
00:13:53.90\00:13:56.43
I mentioned the narrative
sense that it makes, now you're
00:13:56.43\00:14:01.10
emphasizing this.
00:14:01.10\00:14:02.60
I think that we need to bring to
our attention the fact that over
00:14:02.60\00:14:08.18
and over again, there is
misunderstanding of the God of
00:14:08.18\00:14:12.78
the Old Testament and the God of
scripture as a whole, because as
00:14:12.78\00:14:17.12
Jeffrey said, stories are being
looked at in isolation from the
00:14:17.12\00:14:21.29
narrative.
00:14:21.29\00:14:22.52
For example, we have, case in
point, with Dr. Richard Dawkins,
00:14:22.52\00:14:26.93
very famous atheist, he's a
biologist and he rants against
00:14:26.93\00:14:32.97
the God of the Old Testament,
the God of scripture, and when
00:14:32.97\00:14:37.51
he's doing so, if you read, for
example, the God Delusion, his
00:14:37.51\00:14:41.78
book, yeah, New York Times best
seller, when you read that book,
00:14:41.78\00:14:44.95
you're not reading the
writings so much of a scientist.
00:14:44.95\00:14:49.12
He's not making so
many scientific statements.
00:14:49.12\00:14:52.89
He's ranting, he's upset at the
God of the Old Testament, and as
00:14:52.89\00:14:59.16
he's doing this, you
read the examples he gives.
00:14:59.16\00:15:04.57
And for example, he sees,
and we'll get to this later, I
00:15:04.57\00:15:07.94
think, we're gonna discuss this
in detail, but he looks at the
00:15:07.94\00:15:11.04
biblical story of the flood
and all he sees is what in the
00:15:11.04\00:15:16.21
world, this God just
drowns the whole world?
00:15:16.21\00:15:18.45
And the picture he gives is God
just grabbing people by the neck
00:15:18.45\00:15:21.15
and sticking their
head underwater, you know?
00:15:21.15\00:15:22.75
It's an isolated picture.
00:15:22.75\00:15:25.15
>>DAVID: It's not
even an accurate picture.
00:15:25.15\00:15:26.39
>>TY: It's not even an accurate
picture because, you think, he
00:15:26.39\00:15:28.52
didn't read the story and he
didn't take in the whole terrain
00:15:28.52\00:15:33.13
of the subject matter.
00:15:33.13\00:15:34.76
For my own personal amusement,
David, perhaps, read this
00:15:34.76\00:15:41.27
quotation from Richard
Dawkins from The God Delusion.
00:15:41.27\00:15:44.27
Read this quotation.
00:15:44.27\00:15:45.44
>>DAVID: Yeah, I was just gonna,
this is the one I was even
00:15:45.44\00:15:46.94
thinking of.
00:15:46.94\00:15:47.48
>>TY: Were you really?
00:15:47.48\00:15:48.61
>>DAVID: Yeah, I was gonna
reference that classic, you
00:15:48.61\00:15:51.18
know, atheistic description.
00:15:51.18\00:15:54.12
>>TY: This is the problem.
00:15:54.12\00:15:55.78
>>DAVID: So, Dawkins, in his
book, The God Delusion, writes,
00:15:55.78\00:15:57.75
the God of the Old Testament
is arguably the most unpleasant
00:15:57.75\00:16:01.09
character in all fiction.
00:16:01.09\00:16:03.12
Jealous and proud of it.
00:16:03.12\00:16:04.46
A petty, unjust, unforgiving,
control freak, a vindictive,
00:16:04.46\00:16:08.50
blood thirsty, ethnic cleanser.
00:16:08.50\00:16:10.50
A misogynistic, homophobic,
racist, infanticidal, genocidal,
00:16:10.50\00:16:14.14
phileocidal, pestilential,
megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic,
00:16:14.14\00:16:17.91
caprisiestly malevolent bully.
00:16:17.91\00:16:20.38
>>TY: Good job.
00:16:20.38\00:16:22.71
>>DAVID: That is a mouthful.
00:16:22.71\00:16:23.88
>>TY: That is a
mouthful, but here's the thing.
00:16:23.88\00:16:25.88
This guy sees God in, arguably,
the darkest life that you could
00:16:25.88\00:16:32.89
possible imagine.
00:16:32.89\00:16:34.29
>>DAVID: That is satanic.
00:16:34.29\00:16:35.46
But that's a great
description of Satan.
00:16:35.46\00:16:37.69
>>TY: That's a description,
hey, hey, that's the point.
00:16:37.69\00:16:41.30
This is a description of Satan
that's being transposed over
00:16:41.30\00:16:44.63
God.
00:16:44.63\00:16:45.80
>>DAVID: That reminds me of
the great statement, the great
00:16:45.80\00:16:47.84
controversy is Satan's constant
effort to misrepresent the
00:16:47.84\00:16:51.84
character of God, and he's
obviously done a marvelous, a
00:16:51.84\00:16:54.44
fantastic job.
00:16:54.44\00:16:57.38
>>TY: So, here, you have an
example of a man, Dr. Richard
00:16:57.38\00:17:03.25
Dawkins, we're not picking
on him, he's, this is what he's
00:17:03.25\00:17:06.05
written, a man who gives,
obviously, a very intelligent,
00:17:06.05\00:17:09.92
he's an intelligent guy, he's
been voted the most intelligent
00:17:09.92\00:17:12.93
person on the planet or one
of the top 3 most intelligent
00:17:12.93\00:17:15.50
people on the planet in polls
that have been taken at times,
00:17:15.50\00:17:18.47
so he's not lacking IQ, he's not
lacking in IQ, but what is he
00:17:18.47\00:17:25.74
lacking in?
00:17:25.74\00:17:26.57
He's lacking in perspective.
00:17:26.57\00:17:28.24
>>JEFFREY: Context.
00:17:28.24\00:17:29.44
>>TY: Context.
00:17:29.44\00:17:30.81
>>DAVID: Even faith.
00:17:30.81\00:17:31.65
>>TY: Even faith.
00:17:31.65\00:17:33.31
And he sees something going on
in the Old Testament narrative
00:17:33.31\00:17:37.89
that we don't
see going on there.
00:17:37.89\00:17:40.36
We read the same text and we see
an entirely different picture of
00:17:40.36\00:17:47.60
God.
00:17:47.60\00:17:48.66
And so, how do we unpack that?
00:17:48.66\00:17:51.67
What is the picture of God that
we see taking place in the Old
00:17:51.67\00:17:57.47
Testament scriptures
and in scripture as a whole?
00:17:57.47\00:17:59.91
That's where we need to go.
00:17:59.91\00:18:01.18
>>JAMES: I think it's really
important to add to that that we
00:18:01.18\00:18:03.04
don't see that because we
were necessarily brought up in a
00:18:03.04\00:18:05.58
Christian environment
where we were protected from and
00:18:05.58\00:18:08.42
insulated from all of
these wild ideas about God.
00:18:08.42\00:18:12.15
We have the same issues with
God, the same struggles with
00:18:12.15\00:18:15.02
God, the same questions about
the Old Testament that have come
00:18:15.02\00:18:19.86
to a different conclusion here
and we looked at that with the
00:18:19.86\00:18:22.53
same desire to find an answer.
00:18:22.53\00:18:27.00
>>DAVID: I think that's a great
point and we, we don't wanna
00:18:27.00\00:18:30.54
create a situation where we fob
all of this off on the Dawkins's
00:18:30.54\00:18:36.38
of the world, as we said, and we
need to do that, we need to say,
00:18:36.38\00:18:39.21
hey, look, these
are actual questions.
00:18:39.21\00:18:40.68
But for every Richard Dawkins,
again, that's holding at arm's
00:18:40.68\00:18:43.08
length, or even at, you know, a
football field's length is this
00:18:43.08\00:18:45.72
God of scripture, there is
somebody, there's at least 4 at
00:18:45.72\00:18:49.96
this table, and probably a
whole lot outside of it that are
00:18:49.96\00:18:53.26
saying, okay, I do have faith, I
do trust Jesus, I do believe in
00:18:53.26\00:18:56.93
the narrative scope and all of
that, all the lines, but still,
00:18:56.93\00:19:00.74
okay, so why is that
story in the Old Testament?
00:19:00.74\00:19:04.24
And I think when we come back
after the break, we're gonna
00:19:04.24\00:19:06.68
have to take a look at that and
say, okay, let's get into some
00:19:06.68\00:19:10.55
of these texts and let's see how
does it fit into the narrative?
00:19:10.55\00:19:13.18
It's not always nice and neat
like we could wish it would be,
00:19:13.18\00:19:16.15
as we mentioned, but we
have been able to cling to our
00:19:16.15\00:19:19.72
confidence and our hope in the
God of scripture, not because of
00:19:19.72\00:19:23.89
these stories,
but in spite of them.
00:19:23.89\00:19:25.69
They're there, and yet, we think
that they can be, while maybe
00:19:25.69\00:19:29.10
not harmonized,
they can be understood.
00:19:29.10\00:19:31.73
>>TY: Okay, let's dive into the
difficult stuff after the break.
00:19:31.73\00:19:35.67
[Music]
00:19:35.67\00:19:42.24
>>This is the story of Niyima,
who took a bus to the doctor and
00:19:42.24\00:19:47.68
found a piece of paper with
words of hope about Jesus, which
00:19:47.68\00:19:52.59
was left by a church member who
unpacked a box that came from a
00:19:52.59\00:19:56.99
truck which drove in from Durban
where a ship was docked that
00:19:56.99\00:20:01.66
sailed from Seattle, loaded with
containers stacked high with
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millions of tracts, trucked
in from the Light Bearers
00:20:06.47\00:20:09.77
Publishing House, where
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00:20:09.77\00:20:13.91
gospel literature have
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Five cents doesn't buy a lot
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00:21:51.11\00:21:54.01
[Music]
00:21:54.01\00:21:55.41
[Music]
00:21:55.41\00:21:56.18
the answer to the problem
00:21:56.64\00:22:00.95
that we've posed that at least,
for me, has been helpful, and I
00:22:00.95\00:22:04.72
just wanna throw it on the table
and see if you guys, just see if
00:22:04.72\00:22:08.29
you think this helps.
00:22:08.29\00:22:09.46
We're about to deal with
the messy, difficult parts of a
00:22:09.46\00:22:14.10
narrative, of a story.
00:22:14.10\00:22:15.23
Things that we're not
comfortable with, and things
00:22:15.23\00:22:17.73
that we've suggested that
God isn't even comfortable with,
00:22:17.73\00:22:20.07
okay?
00:22:20.07\00:22:20.84
So, that's the
body of the story.
00:22:20.84\00:22:22.80
But if you look at the biblical
narrative and you go back to the
00:22:22.80\00:22:26.31
very beginning of the story,
alright, Genesis 1 and 2, what
00:22:26.31\00:22:30.28
we call pre-fall.
00:22:30.28\00:22:32.31
You have a picture, you have
a picture of God, how he thinks,
00:22:32.31\00:22:37.25
how he feels, his aspirations,
his desires, the kind of person
00:22:37.25\00:22:41.32
God is and you go to the end of
the story, the last two chapters
00:22:41.32\00:22:45.09
of the bible, in Revelation 21
and 22, and you have a picture
00:22:45.09\00:22:50.57
of God.
00:22:50.57\00:22:52.03
Now, watch where this goes.
00:22:52.03\00:22:53.27
These are like two bookends.
00:22:53.27\00:22:54.90
In the beginning of the story,
you have a God who creates a
00:22:54.90\00:22:57.34
world in which he looks at
what he's made and he says, it's
00:22:57.34\00:23:01.91
good, good, good,
good, good, good, very good.
00:23:01.91\00:23:05.25
It's very good.
00:23:05.25\00:23:07.02
God has created a situation in
which there is no pain, there is
00:23:07.02\00:23:11.09
no suffering, there is no
relational discord, there's just
00:23:11.09\00:23:14.49
love, love, love, and more love,
there's giving, giving, giving,
00:23:14.49\00:23:17.83
and more giving.
00:23:17.83\00:23:19.06
There's freedom, freedom,
freedom, and more freedom.
00:23:19.06\00:23:20.33
>>DAVID: And pleasure,
we've talked about that.
00:23:20.33\00:23:21.46
>>TY: Pleasure, and all
that's going on in those first 2
00:23:21.46\00:23:23.37
chapters, okay?
00:23:23.37\00:23:24.60
Then, the story unfolds,
the messy part of the story.
00:23:24.60\00:23:28.77
In chapter 3, the fall occurs in
Genesis, and the word curse is
00:23:28.77\00:23:32.94
introduced.
00:23:32.94\00:23:34.14
Alright now, watch this, then
all this horror unfolds down
00:23:34.14\00:23:38.15
through history in this story,
high points and low points and
00:23:38.15\00:23:41.55
successes and failures and
people who are achieving great
00:23:41.55\00:23:45.62
things by faith and God is
giving the nod and yes, and
00:23:45.62\00:23:51.13
then, there are things where
it descends into horror and
00:23:51.13\00:23:54.10
ugliness and the story's
unfolding, unfolding, unfolding,
00:23:54.10\00:23:56.90
you come to Revelation 21 and
22 and now, you have a situation
00:23:56.90\00:24:03.37
where God is described as wiping
all tears from eyes, and he
00:24:03.37\00:24:09.14
says, no more pain, no more
suffering, no more death, no
00:24:09.14\00:24:13.21
more, no more, no more of all
this stuff in the body of the
00:24:13.21\00:24:16.55
story, we're going back.
00:24:16.55\00:24:18.49
And then, this, in chapter
22 and there was no more curse.
00:24:18.49\00:24:25.56
What has happened,
verse 3 of chapter 22?
00:24:25.56\00:24:28.40
Okay, so you have, in Genesis,
you have the introduction of the
00:24:28.40\00:24:32.37
word curse, not curse in
the pagan sense of abra cadabra,
00:24:32.37\00:24:37.94
curse.
00:24:37.94\00:24:39.14
Curse in the sense of suffering
and horror and ugliness and
00:24:39.14\00:24:43.58
terrible things.
00:24:43.58\00:24:44.51
All that starts to unfold.
00:24:44.51\00:24:45.58
>>JEFFREY: As a result of.
00:24:45.58\00:24:46.78
>>TY: Yeah, and you get to
the end of the story and now, no
00:24:46.78\00:24:49.75
more curse.
00:24:49.75\00:24:51.65
So, what this says to me is that
whatever's going on in the body
00:24:51.65\00:24:56.52
of the story, all the horrible
things that we're about to look
00:24:56.52\00:24:59.83
at and unpack, okay, all the
horrible stuff, none of it is
00:24:59.83\00:25:05.70
reflective of God's character,
will, or aspirations, his
00:25:05.70\00:25:11.11
original plan.
00:25:11.11\00:25:12.34
And none of it is reflective of
what God finally leads us to as
00:25:12.34\00:25:18.48
a restoration.
00:25:18.48\00:25:19.98
You see how that works?
00:25:19.98\00:25:21.62
I gotta add a scripture to
this, gotta add a scripture.
00:25:21.62\00:25:24.49
This is in Isaiah
chapter 11, verse 9.
00:25:24.49\00:25:28.19
And it's just phenomenal,
it says, this is God describing
00:25:28.19\00:25:33.53
reality and our world as
our world is in its final
00:25:33.53\00:25:38.73
configuration when everything is
the way that God wants it to be.
00:25:38.73\00:25:42.54
And they shall not hurt
nor destroy in all of my holy
00:25:42.54\00:25:48.11
mountain, says the Lord, for the
earth shall be filled with the
00:25:48.11\00:25:51.45
knowledge of the Lord.
00:25:51.45\00:25:53.28
What?
00:25:53.28\00:25:54.52
This is telling us that, at a
very bare minimum, that all the
00:25:54.52\00:25:59.79
horror and ugliness that we see
taking place and unfolding in
00:25:59.79\00:26:02.82
human history is not reflective
of what's going on in the heart
00:26:02.82\00:26:06.73
of this sensitive God
who loves and is good.
00:26:06.73\00:26:12.27
What we see is two bookends and
then God navigating the evil in
00:26:12.27\00:26:17.34
between and returning us.
00:26:17.34\00:26:19.07
Do you like that as a
general way of looking at that?
00:26:19.07\00:26:22.11
>>JEFFREY: You know, I was
going to say that everything in
00:26:22.11\00:26:27.35
Genesis 1 and 2 and Revelation
21 and 22 is reflective of God's
00:26:27.35\00:26:32.32
ideal.
00:26:32.32\00:26:33.52
Your point exactly, everything
we read in between is, falls
00:26:33.52\00:26:41.06
short of God's ideal.
00:26:41.06\00:26:43.30
I wanna introduce now as this
thing that we all know as the
00:26:43.30\00:26:45.33
accommodation principle, right?
00:26:45.33\00:26:47.14
What we read about in between
those two bookends is God
00:26:47.14\00:26:53.91
meeting humanity
where it is, right?
00:26:53.91\00:26:58.78
In order to deal with the
brokenness and the fallenness of
00:26:58.78\00:27:04.72
the human race, but in order to
meet humanity where humanity is,
00:27:04.72\00:27:08.42
God has to operate and relate to
humanity in ways that are less
00:27:08.42\00:27:12.36
than his ideal.
00:27:12.36\00:27:13.66
So, there's an issue
that, whenever we read things in
00:27:13.66\00:27:16.00
scripture in the Old Testament,
we cannot jump to the conclusion
00:27:16.00\00:27:20.07
that that's what God wanted,
that's reflective of God's
00:27:20.07\00:27:23.00
ideal.
00:27:23.00\00:27:24.17
We always have to read it
against the backdrop of Genesis
00:27:24.17\00:27:26.54
1 and 2.
00:27:26.54\00:27:27.78
For example, we'll read passages
in the Old Testament where women
00:27:27.78\00:27:31.45
are related in a certain way,
or related to in a certain way.
00:27:31.45\00:27:35.18
But we always have to
00:27:35.18\00:27:36.22
-- >>TY: In a bad way.
00:27:36.22\00:27:37.42
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, and we have
to read that always against the
00:27:37.42\00:27:38.79
backdrop of Genesis 1 and
2, where none of that existed,
00:27:38.79\00:27:42.32
inequality didn't exist,
like you were saying, pain,
00:27:42.32\00:27:44.79
suffering, and so
forth, didn't exist.
00:27:44.79\00:27:46.03
I wanna share a passage that
I think is super, super powerful
00:27:46.03\00:27:51.30
on this very point, and
it's Matthew chapter 19, and I'm
00:27:51.30\00:27:56.64
beginning in verse 3 and I'm
hoping I have the right verses
00:27:56.64\00:28:00.58
here.
00:28:00.58\00:28:01.68
But Matthew 19 and verse 3,
this is where Jesus is being
00:28:01.68\00:28:05.38
confronted in regard to marriage
and divorce, okay, so I think
00:28:05.38\00:28:09.85
this is a great point where you
have things in the bible that
00:28:09.85\00:28:12.99
are written, but that are
not reflective of God's ideal.
00:28:12.99\00:28:15.39
Matthew 19 and verse 3, the
Pharisees came to Jesus, testing
00:28:15.39\00:28:18.66
him, and they said to him, is it
lawful for a man to divorce his
00:28:18.66\00:28:22.26
wife for just any reason?
00:28:22.26\00:28:25.23
And verse 4, Jesus says to him,
haven't you read that he who
00:28:25.23\00:28:30.04
made them at the beginning made
them male and female, and that's
00:28:30.04\00:28:35.81
in quotation marks, he's quoting
from Genesis, pre-fall, right?
00:28:35.81\00:28:40.65
And verse 5, and said, for this
reason, a man shall leave his
00:28:40.65\00:28:44.55
father and mother and be joined
to his wife and the two shall
00:28:44.55\00:28:46.25
become one flesh,
again, quoting pre-fall.
00:28:46.25\00:28:48.72
Verse 6, so then, they are
no longer two, but one flesh,
00:28:48.72\00:28:52.83
therefore, what God has joined
together, let no man separate.
00:28:52.83\00:28:56.67
They said to him, then why
did Moses command to give a
00:28:56.67\00:29:01.17
certificate of
divorce to put her away?
00:29:01.17\00:29:04.74
>>TY: Break that
down, by the way.
00:29:04.74\00:29:06.21
>>JEFFREY: Jesus, you're telling
us that it was never God's
00:29:06.21\00:29:10.41
intention for
divorce to be a thing?
00:29:10.41\00:29:13.78
If what you're saying is true,
then why is it that when we
00:29:13.78\00:29:17.92
crack open, more
like the scrolls.
00:29:17.92\00:29:20.96
>>TY: We unroll.
00:29:20.96\00:29:22.16
>>JEFFREY: When we unroll
the scrolls of the Old Testament
00:29:22.16\00:29:25.03
scriptures, why is it that
you told Moses to tell us--
00:29:25.03\00:29:30.03
>>DAVID: Divorce
should be conducted like this.
00:29:30.03\00:29:32.20
>>JEFFREY: That
there's provision for divorce?
00:29:32.20\00:29:36.40
If you're not into divorce, then
why did you communicate through
00:29:36.40\00:29:40.41
the Old Testament scriptures
that, here are parameters for
00:29:40.41\00:29:43.78
divorce.
00:29:43.78\00:29:44.38
I think this is brilliant.
00:29:44.38\00:29:45.61
And Jesus' answer is just like,
it's money, verse 8, he said to
00:29:45.61\00:29:50.85
them, Moses, because, Moses,
comma, because of the hardness
00:29:50.85\00:29:58.46
of your hearts, permitted you to
divorce your wives and then, but
00:29:58.46\00:30:03.67
from the beginning, this was
never supposed to be the case.
00:30:03.67\00:30:07.90
So, to me, again, this doesn't
allow me to walk away with
00:30:07.90\00:30:11.24
squeaky clean answers, but I'll
tell you what it does do, it
00:30:11.24\00:30:14.11
gives me something to work with.
00:30:14.11\00:30:15.91
I read stuff in the Old
Testament that, frankly, freaks
00:30:15.91\00:30:18.85
me out.
00:30:18.85\00:30:20.08
But, I have to read that against
the backdrop of Genesis 1 and 2,
00:30:20.08\00:30:24.99
and this principle, although
only speaking in regard to
00:30:24.99\00:30:27.79
marriage/divorce, applies to,
and I'll just put all the dirty
00:30:27.79\00:30:32.03
laundry on the table, slavery,
women's rights, polygamy, and
00:30:32.03\00:30:38.23
all the rest of it, right?
00:30:38.23\00:30:39.40
Everything, genocide, killing,
war, in the Old Testament.
00:30:39.40\00:30:43.44
That principle, it's a key that
unlocks and helps us grapple
00:30:43.44\00:30:48.48
with all the other difficulties
in the Old Testament and that
00:30:48.48\00:30:51.78
key is, namely, this is
not God's ideal, God's ideal is
00:30:51.78\00:30:56.45
Genesis 1 and 2, equality,
liberty, mercy, justice, so
00:30:56.45\00:31:01.62
forth and so forth.
00:31:01.62\00:31:02.82
But, because of the hardness
and the fallenness of the social
00:31:02.82\00:31:07.83
structures and of the human race
and of the people, God has had
00:31:07.83\00:31:13.97
to work with the mess that the
curse has brought on and because
00:31:13.97\00:31:19.34
of that working, he has to work
with what he's got, although,
00:31:19.34\00:31:25.01
it's less than his ideal.
00:31:25.01\00:31:26.51
So, I think that's super
important to unravel that.
00:31:26.51\00:31:29.92
>>TY: A very
high level of clarity.
00:31:29.92\00:31:32.25
That was extremely helpful
in outlining the essence of what
00:31:32.25\00:31:38.29
we're referring to as
the accommodation principle.
00:31:38.29\00:31:42.16
I'd like to give now, and see
if this fits or not, just cross
00:31:42.16\00:31:45.70
examine this, you guys, an
Old Testament example that will
00:31:45.70\00:31:50.27
serve as a lens through which
we can see this accommodation
00:31:50.27\00:31:53.17
principle in action, okay?
00:31:53.17\00:31:54.71
We have this guy that we've
referred to as David, alright.
00:31:54.71\00:32:00.35
David is a man who becomes a
king in Israel basically because
00:32:00.35\00:32:07.89
the people have
demanded a king, alright.
00:32:07.89\00:32:10.99
First there's Saul,
but then there's David.
00:32:10.99\00:32:12.79
God, in the story, doesn't want
Israel to have a king at all.
00:32:12.79\00:32:16.16
He wants to govern his
people through prophets, through
00:32:16.16\00:32:18.83
information, through wisdom.
00:32:18.83\00:32:20.50
He wants to educate his people
to live in such a way through
00:32:20.50\00:32:24.21
information that
they'll be self-governing.
00:32:24.21\00:32:26.11
Yeah, they're self-governing,
they're a kingdom of priests.
00:32:26.11\00:32:29.31
That's how God wants to
govern his people, with wisdom.
00:32:29.31\00:32:31.61
No, we want a king, we want
someone over us to, like the
00:32:31.61\00:32:35.42
other nations.
00:32:35.42\00:32:36.95
God says, no, you're
not gonna have a king.
00:32:36.95\00:32:39.99
They insist, and so, what
does God do in this story?
00:32:39.99\00:32:42.06
He accommodates.
00:32:42.06\00:32:43.73
He says, okay, you insist upon
having a king, you're gonna have
00:32:43.73\00:32:47.03
a king and it's gonna get, I'm
just gonna tell you, it's gonna
00:32:47.03\00:32:49.53
be bad, he's gonna take your
women as concubines, he's gonna
00:32:49.53\00:32:52.30
tax your lands, he's
gonna take your sons off to war.
00:32:52.30\00:32:55.67
Just so you know, that's what
it's gonna look like to have a
00:32:55.67\00:32:58.64
king.
00:32:58.64\00:32:59.71
You put a human being in
power and power corrupts.
00:32:59.71\00:33:01.74
>>JEFFREY: For our viewers,
you're referring to 1 Samuel
00:33:01.74\00:33:04.01
chapter 8, keep going.
00:33:04.01\00:33:05.38
>>TY: So, then they get Saul,
alright, then the second king
00:33:05.38\00:33:10.22
after Saul, cutting to
the chase here, is David.
00:33:10.22\00:33:12.15
Now, this is astounding to me.
00:33:12.15\00:33:14.72
David is a man
after God's own heart.
00:33:14.72\00:33:17.66
David is chosen by God
to be the king of Israel.
00:33:17.66\00:33:21.93
David is under
the blessing of God.
00:33:21.93\00:33:23.97
David turns to God for guidance
and strength in conducting war
00:33:23.97\00:33:29.34
with the nations around, right?
00:33:29.34\00:33:31.61
And David is a man of war.
00:33:31.61\00:33:34.14
David goes through his entire
military career as a king,
00:33:34.14\00:33:37.61
alright?
00:33:37.61\00:33:38.78
He comes to the end of his
career, he's getting old, and he
00:33:38.78\00:33:43.55
says, God, here's how I wanna go
out, here's how I wanna end my
00:33:43.55\00:33:46.22
life.
00:33:46.22\00:33:47.06
I want to build
for you, God, a temple.
00:33:47.06\00:33:50.86
For the worship of God.
00:33:50.86\00:33:54.30
And then God says
something astounding.
00:33:54.30\00:33:57.23
>>DAVID: I know,
this is astonishing.
00:33:57.23\00:33:57.90
>>TY: Yeah, God says, David, no.
00:33:57.90\00:34:01.67
You can't build a temple for
the worship of me, God, because
00:34:01.67\00:34:07.68
you're a man of war and
there's blood on your hands.
00:34:07.68\00:34:11.21
The temple has to be
built by a man of peace.
00:34:11.21\00:34:14.72
Which, in the story, that will
be Solomon, who was not a man of
00:34:14.72\00:34:17.69
war, but a man of wisdom, a man
who had his ups and downs, of
00:34:17.69\00:34:22.36
course, we won't go into that,
but here's the thing, here's the
00:34:22.36\00:34:24.46
thing.
00:34:24.46\00:34:25.26
Do you see
what's happening here?
00:34:25.26\00:34:26.43
God is essentially, God is
essentially blessing David, he's
00:34:26.43\00:34:31.33
going along with David and
he's, he's guiding David, he's
00:34:31.33\00:34:36.77
blessing David, David's my
man, but then when it comes to
00:34:36.77\00:34:39.61
worshipping God, or building
a temple to worship God, God
00:34:39.61\00:34:43.98
disassociates himself from the
very wars that he blessed David
00:34:43.98\00:34:50.69
to win, and that tells us that
God's ultimate will is not war.
00:34:50.69\00:34:55.79
In fact, when we come to
the minor prophets, there's a
00:34:55.79\00:34:59.96
passage, and maybe you guys know
where it is, I don't know where
00:34:59.96\00:35:01.93
it is, where God is expressing
what his ultimate will is and he
00:35:01.93\00:35:05.43
said, they shall
teach war no more.
00:35:05.43\00:35:08.27
No more war.
00:35:08.27\00:35:09.80
>>DAVID: Like that old, that
great spiritual, gonna study war
00:35:09.80\00:35:13.04
no more.
00:35:13.04\00:35:14.11
>>TY: So, there's God
accommodating his people in
00:35:14.11\00:35:19.98
their fallen, messy state,
and then, disassociating himself
00:35:19.98\00:35:24.02
from war.
00:35:24.02\00:35:26.82
People say, well, why all this
genocide in the Old Testament?
00:35:26.82\00:35:29.89
Why all these, the Israelites
going in under God's command and
00:35:29.89\00:35:33.26
slaughtering other nations?
00:35:33.26\00:35:34.63
We'll get to that, but we can
clearly see that whatever it is,
00:35:34.63\00:35:38.70
God ultimately
is not a God of war.
00:35:38.70\00:35:41.80
>>DAVID: I love the way that we
are inching toward the answer,
00:35:41.80\00:35:45.24
and frankly, it's the
responsible thing to do.
00:35:45.24\00:35:46.91
There might be some listening
in, maybe someone has shared, a
00:35:46.91\00:35:50.91
believer has shared this
conversation with an agnostic or
00:35:50.91\00:35:53.48
an atheist or someone who's
hostile and they're saying,
00:35:53.48\00:35:55.15
okay, get to the
point, get to the point.
00:35:55.15\00:35:57.05
But the point is is
that this is the point.
00:35:57.05\00:35:59.49
You can't just run headlong into
these difficult passages any
00:35:59.49\00:36:03.56
more than you can run headlong
into the narrative, the GoPro
00:36:03.56\00:36:06.19
narrative of David's life and
say, why is he yelling at his
00:36:06.19\00:36:08.66
wife right here?
00:36:08.66\00:36:09.43
What's going on?
00:36:09.43\00:36:10.67
So, okay, wait a minute, what
about this and this and this,
00:36:10.67\00:36:12.87
there's a context.
00:36:12.87\00:36:14.07
And what we've said here,
this is not escapist, this is--
00:36:14.07\00:36:19.01
>>TY: The actual story.
00:36:19.01\00:36:20.18
>>DAVID: Trying to wrestle
through and understand, but what
00:36:20.18\00:36:23.08
I love about what we've done so
far is we've shown God's ideal,
00:36:23.08\00:36:26.61
okay, we've done that.
00:36:26.61\00:36:27.72
We've started this way,
this is I'm compartmentalizing.
00:36:27.72\00:36:29.42
Number one, we said this is
difficult, these answers aren't
00:36:29.42\00:36:31.72
all nice, neat, and easy.
00:36:31.72\00:36:33.09
Number two, we've said, this
is God's ideal, and we did the
00:36:33.09\00:36:35.42
Genesis 1 and 2 to Revelation 21
and 22, and then I love, there's
00:36:35.42\00:36:39.29
almost like that little buoy in
the middle of Isaiah 11:19, you
00:36:39.29\00:36:43.03
know, this is what it's gonna
be like, 11:9, thank you, on my
00:36:43.03\00:36:46.50
holy mountain, and then, now,
we're saying, okay so, what's
00:36:46.50\00:36:49.24
the next step?
00:36:49.24\00:36:50.17
Well, it's accommodation.
00:36:50.17\00:36:51.64
Matthew, was it 19?
00:36:51.64\00:36:53.17
Accommodation where God's
accommodating and then we just
00:36:53.17\00:36:55.91
had this
accommodations principle.
00:36:55.91\00:36:57.15
I love that.
00:36:57.15\00:36:58.38
I just feel like it's important
for us to say that we're inching
00:36:58.38\00:37:01.52
toward, and when we get there,
it's not as though everything is
00:37:01.52\00:37:03.92
gonna line up and every i is
gonna be done and every t will
00:37:03.92\00:37:05.99
be crossed and all will be
well, but at least we'll have a
00:37:05.99\00:37:08.52
superstructure, a narrative
from which to say, okay, I still
00:37:08.52\00:37:14.10
don't like that, but I
see where it fits in the flow.
00:37:14.10\00:37:16.33
>>JAMES: Totally, I really
like what you just said, David,
00:37:16.33\00:37:18.47
because that's what's missing.
00:37:18.47\00:37:19.97
Ty was talking, as he introduced
this about this whole attack of
00:37:19.97\00:37:24.27
atheism against the bible
and against the God of the Old
00:37:24.27\00:37:26.71
Testament specifically, and what
is missing from all that is this
00:37:26.71\00:37:30.85
inching and inching and caking
of the big picture, which I love
00:37:30.85\00:37:34.05
the way we did that, starting in
Genesis and going to Revelation
00:37:34.05\00:37:37.09
and showing the bookends
of the beginning and the end.
00:37:37.09\00:37:39.95
But also, a lot of these
principles that Jesus talks
00:37:39.95\00:37:42.69
about in Matthew 19, as you
said that remind us that God is
00:37:42.69\00:37:47.13
accommodating, accommodating,
accommodating, but he has a will
00:37:47.13\00:37:49.73
and he wants that will to be
done, and it reminds me of the
00:37:49.73\00:37:53.00
prayer of Christ in Matthew
6, among other places, where he
00:37:53.00\00:37:56.40
says, you need to pray, thy will
be done on earth as it is in
00:37:56.40\00:37:59.67
heaven, which tells us it's not
being done and tells us we gotta
00:37:59.67\00:38:03.48
be delivered from this evil.
00:38:03.48\00:38:04.65
>>JEFFREY: You know what,
it just occurred to me that the
00:38:04.65\00:38:08.18
accommodation principle is not
merely a thing within the canon
00:38:08.18\00:38:12.42
of scripture, it's not
just a thing God did in the Old
00:38:12.42\00:38:15.19
Testament times, until we would
come to our senses and he can
00:38:15.19\00:38:19.43
relate to us differently, it
just occurred to me that this is
00:38:19.43\00:38:24.00
still the way he
relates to humanity.
00:38:24.00\00:38:26.60
Think about your own journey.
00:38:26.60\00:38:29.77
When I first encountered the
gospel and I had this radical
00:38:29.77\00:38:36.14
transformative experience in my
life, God didn't relate to me or
00:38:36.14\00:38:40.75
expect from me or reveal to me
the things that he revealed to
00:38:40.75\00:38:45.55
me 5, 6, 7 years later.
00:38:45.55\00:38:47.36
So, God gave me what I
could handle at the time.
00:38:47.36\00:38:52.66
>>TY: And stayed in
relationship with you.
00:38:52.66\00:38:54.20
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, God took into
account the context, you were
00:38:54.20\00:38:57.47
saying, not the context, the
trajectory of my journey and he
00:38:57.47\00:39:03.07
related to me accordingly.
00:39:03.07\00:39:04.54
So, I just think it's awesome
that this principle, this
00:39:04.54\00:39:08.88
accommodation principle in
scripture is still the way God
00:39:08.88\00:39:11.65
relates to humanity today.
00:39:11.65\00:39:13.28
And furthermore, if you just
think of, I mean, we're a bunch
00:39:13.28\00:39:15.68
of evangelists at the table, but
the expectations one would have
00:39:15.68\00:39:19.25
towards other
Christians or newly.
00:39:19.25\00:39:22.09
>>TY: Or what about
going to the mission field?
00:39:22.09\00:39:23.93
>>JEFFREY: Or to the mission
field, you enter an entirely,
00:39:23.93\00:39:25.93
radically different culture
who's being introduced to
00:39:25.93\00:39:29.23
this for the very first time.
00:39:29.23\00:39:30.47
It would be crazy to relate to
that culture in a way where you
00:39:30.47\00:39:35.80
would expect them to totally
alter and recalibrate everything
00:39:35.80\00:39:41.01
immediately.
00:39:41.01\00:39:42.18
>>TY: You would've
ruined the relationship.
00:39:42.18\00:39:44.31
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, you would
assume there's a gradual process
00:39:44.31\00:39:46.25
that would be needed, and that's
exactly what we're saying is, in
00:39:46.25\00:39:49.68
the Old
Testament, there's a process.
00:39:49.68\00:39:51.09
>>TY: So, you could say God,
for example, God doesn't like
00:39:51.09\00:39:53.19
polygamy, right?
00:39:53.19\00:39:55.02
We know that.
00:39:55.02\00:39:56.93
We know that from Genesis 1
and 2, we know that from Jesus'
00:39:56.93\00:39:59.76
statement in Matthew 19.
00:39:59.76\00:40:01.90
God is not in favor of polygamy,
but he's dealing with Abraham
00:40:01.90\00:40:05.30
because he's got this big plan
that he's working out and to go
00:40:05.30\00:40:10.51
after that in that culture and
that setting at that time with
00:40:10.51\00:40:15.31
that man, to go after that would
circumvent the bigger objective
00:40:15.31\00:40:20.15
that God is trying to achieve.
00:40:20.15\00:40:22.12
>>JEFFREY: We were saying in
a previous conversation that you
00:40:22.12\00:40:24.92
bring up Abraham, so Abraham is
coming from an environment and
00:40:24.92\00:40:28.29
civilization, a culture where
children are being sacrificed to
00:40:28.29\00:40:32.73
idols.
00:40:32.73\00:40:33.80
So, God has, he has to
evaluate his approach, okay.
00:40:33.80\00:40:37.97
This is my man, this is my
number one man, okay, I need him
00:40:37.97\00:40:41.64
to be on point.
00:40:41.64\00:40:43.47
He's coming from an environment
where children are being
00:40:43.47\00:40:47.81
sacrificed and he's also
into having 2 or 3 wives.
00:40:47.81\00:40:52.11
Okay, so...
00:40:52.11\00:40:56.82
See what I'm saying?
00:40:56.82\00:40:57.89
So, he has to deal with
something, but he's not just
00:40:57.89\00:41:00.72
gonna lay it all on Abraham,
so you see the polygamy thing
00:41:00.72\00:41:03.56
persist a little longer through
the narrative, but the child
00:41:03.56\00:41:07.66
sacrificing, God is like,
get up and pack your bags.
00:41:07.66\00:41:11.53
>>DAVID: At the most fundamental
level, even apart from the
00:41:11.53\00:41:14.70
polygamy thing or the genocide
thing, or the slavery thing, God
00:41:14.70\00:41:17.81
is accommodating every one
of us at the level of language.
00:41:17.81\00:41:21.14
This is something
that we need to understand.
00:41:21.14\00:41:24.31
>>JEFFREY: That's a good point.
00:41:24.31\00:41:25.15
The fact that the
bible is even there.
00:41:25.15\00:41:27.82
>>DAVID: The fact that God has
condescended to speak to beings
00:41:27.82\00:41:32.42
that are not like him, the chasm
between created and creator is
00:41:32.42\00:41:37.73
an infinite chasm.
00:41:37.73\00:41:38.93
It's greater than the chasm
between an amoeba and Gabriel
00:41:38.93\00:41:41.70
the angel.
00:41:41.70\00:41:42.53
That chasm is say,
whatever, 100 miles.
00:41:42.53\00:41:45.07
Okay, well, then the chasm
between the kind of being that
00:41:45.07\00:41:47.84
Gabriel is and God
is is a billion miles.
00:41:47.84\00:41:50.31
So, the moment that God makes,
that's a condescension, right?
00:41:50.31\00:41:55.41
It's an accommodation.
00:41:55.41\00:41:57.01
Then the moment he
speaks, that's an accommodation.
00:41:57.01\00:42:00.05
So much so that when we're
dealing with God even in our
00:42:00.05\00:42:03.59
prayers, there's this great text
in Romans 8 that says that the
00:42:03.59\00:42:07.59
spirit intercedes for us
with groanings that cannot be
00:42:07.59\00:42:09.72
uttered, because God's like, I
know what he thinks he's asking.
00:42:09.72\00:42:12.73
I know what he thinks he wants
or what she thinks she wants,
00:42:12.73\00:42:16.67
but I'm going
to hear the intent.
00:42:16.67\00:42:19.57
I will accommodate the fragility
and the humanity of that prayer,
00:42:19.57\00:42:24.84
of that situation, of that.
00:42:24.84\00:42:26.31
So, this accommodation is
not just in the big things.
00:42:26.31\00:42:29.31
In other words, it's not just
like a nice little principle to
00:42:29.31\00:42:31.75
get these skeletons, you know,
back in the closet where they
00:42:31.75\00:42:34.15
belong, no, God is accommodating
us at every conceivable level.
00:42:34.15\00:42:38.29
The second thing that I wanted
to say, and I love this, is,
00:42:38.29\00:42:41.19
great quotation from Norman
Geisler, well known Christian
00:42:41.19\00:42:44.59
philosopher and apologist, and
this has just stuck with me, I
00:42:44.59\00:42:48.16
read it, oh, probably 15 years
ago, it's just stuck with me.
00:42:48.16\00:42:50.50
He said, apparently, God would
rather wrestle with stubborn
00:42:50.50\00:42:55.14
human wills than reign
supreme over rocks and trees.
00:42:55.14\00:43:00.11
>>TY: Oh, that's good.
00:43:00.11\00:43:01.91
>>DAVID: He said, when I read
scripture, apparently, God would
00:43:01.91\00:43:06.31
rather wrestle with stubborn
human wills than reign supreme
00:43:06.31\00:43:09.78
over the rocks and trees.
00:43:09.78\00:43:10.95
>>TY: We have to take a
break because we have this whole
00:43:10.95\00:43:13.82
schedule thing going on,
but we'll come right back and
00:43:13.82\00:43:16.83
continue with the discussion.
00:43:16.83\00:43:18.63
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[Music]
00:44:14.08\00:44:17.59
[Music]
00:44:17.59\00:44:20.26
now, we need to spend some
time getting into some of the
00:44:25.19\00:44:28.53
difficult situations that we
encounter in the Old Testament.
00:44:28.53\00:44:32.53
I'll begin with the flood,
because that's an early story in
00:44:32.53\00:44:37.04
the big narrative that people
really struggle with and as I
00:44:37.04\00:44:41.58
mentioned earlier, there
are people who see it as just a
00:44:41.58\00:44:44.28
malicious act of drowning a
bunch of people with no just
00:44:44.28\00:44:49.12
cause and in a way
that is cruel and heartless.
00:44:49.12\00:44:53.09
But I want you to notice
something in the story, in the
00:44:53.09\00:44:56.32
text of Genesis chapter 6
that is oftentimes overlooked.
00:44:56.32\00:44:59.86
First of all, as the story
is told, it says in verse 3 that
00:44:59.86\00:45:05.97
the Lord said, my spirit shall
not strive with man forever.
00:45:05.97\00:45:11.61
So, the first point is
this, God is striving with man.
00:45:11.61\00:45:14.41
What's the
context, striving what?
00:45:14.41\00:45:15.58
Striving to get human beings
to stop hurting one another.
00:45:15.58\00:45:18.61
>>JEFFREY: He's
working with them.
00:45:18.61\00:45:19.71
>>TY: To stop perpetrating
injustice on one another.
00:45:19.71\00:45:21.58
He's working with them.
00:45:21.58\00:45:22.82
So, that first of all, tells us.
00:45:22.82\00:45:24.39
>>DAVID: Tells us a lot
about how God deals with people.
00:45:24.39\00:45:26.25
>>TY: Yeah, how
God deals with people.
00:45:26.25\00:45:27.49
Secondly, down in verse 5, it
says that the Lord saw that the
00:45:27.49\00:45:31.49
wickedness of man
was great in the earth.
00:45:31.49\00:45:33.63
So, this thing is
going off the charts.
00:45:33.63\00:45:34.93
Wickedness is now exponential,
it's gone viral, it's everywhere
00:45:34.93\00:45:40.24
and it's horrible and it
says that every intent of the
00:45:40.24\00:45:44.47
thoughts of his heart
was only evil continually.
00:45:44.47\00:45:48.24
That's pretty strong language.
00:45:48.24\00:45:49.04
This is some bad stuff.
00:45:49.04\00:45:51.75
The world is in a bad place.
00:45:51.75\00:45:52.98
Verse 6 says that the Lord was
sorry that he made man and that
00:45:52.98\00:45:57.05
it grieved his heart.
00:45:57.05\00:45:58.22
Here's a God who is looking
on the way children are being
00:45:58.22\00:46:02.56
treated, the way women are
being treated, the way men are
00:46:02.56\00:46:05.09
treating fellow
men and he's grieved.
00:46:05.09\00:46:09.03
So, this isn't a barbaric God
who just flies off the handle
00:46:09.03\00:46:14.07
one day, this is a God who's
laboring, he's pleading, and
00:46:14.07\00:46:17.34
he's grieved.
00:46:17.34\00:46:18.37
But here's the part
that I find very interesting.
00:46:18.37\00:46:20.74
As the story goes on, it says
in verse 11 that the earth was
00:46:20.74\00:46:24.45
corrupt and
filled with violence.
00:46:24.45\00:46:26.92
Filled with violence, you guys.
00:46:26.92\00:46:29.52
How much violence?
00:46:29.52\00:46:31.15
How bad was this wickedness?
00:46:31.15\00:46:32.55
Verse 13, and God said to Noah,
the end of all flesh has come up
00:46:32.55\00:46:39.46
before me.
00:46:39.46\00:46:41.00
The end of all flesh has come up
before me, and then he says, I
00:46:41.00\00:46:44.57
will destroy the earth with the
flood and start over with Noah.
00:46:44.57\00:46:47.14
That's the short version.
00:46:47.14\00:46:49.20
Do you see
what's happening here?
00:46:49.20\00:46:50.57
The end of all flesh, that term,
very few people take that into
00:46:50.57\00:46:55.61
account.
00:46:55.61\00:46:56.78
Essentially, what God is
saying here is the human race is
00:46:56.78\00:46:59.01
teetering on the
edge of extinction.
00:46:59.01\00:47:02.32
There's not
gonna be anybody left.
00:47:02.32\00:47:04.02
So, God, I'm gonna take action.
00:47:04.02\00:47:06.65
I'm gonna intervene to save the
human race by ending this evil
00:47:06.65\00:47:14.36
that is like a parasite
that's just spreading, it's gone
00:47:14.36\00:47:17.87
pandemic.
00:47:17.87\00:47:18.70
Everybody's taken in.
00:47:18.70\00:47:20.07
We know how bad it was because
how many people got on the ark?
00:47:20.07\00:47:22.44
Eight.
00:47:22.44\00:47:24.31
Okay, this thing had spread.
00:47:24.31\00:47:26.17
This was a virus that was
infecting the whole world and
00:47:26.17\00:47:29.04
God says, I have no choice
but to destroy in order to save.
00:47:29.04\00:47:34.58
To destroy in
order, I have no choice.
00:47:34.58\00:47:37.29
What are my options?
00:47:37.29\00:47:38.12
What am I gonna do?
00:47:38.12\00:47:39.29
If I allow one more generation
to go by, there's no Noah.
00:47:39.29\00:47:42.29
There's nobody, the
human race is trashed.
00:47:42.29\00:47:45.06
The whole thing goes extinct.
00:47:45.06\00:47:46.33
What are we gonna do then?
00:47:46.33\00:47:47.50
So, God preserves the human
race by preserving Noah and his
00:47:47.50\00:47:51.13
family.
00:47:51.13\00:47:51.73
And the larger story, why?
00:47:51.73\00:47:53.80
In order to enter into covenant
with Noah so that Messiah can
00:47:53.80\00:47:57.81
come to reverse all of the
effects of evil and eventually
00:47:57.81\00:48:00.88
save humanity.
00:48:00.88\00:48:02.24
>>JEFFREY: It's the
whole surgeon thing.
00:48:02.24\00:48:03.48
Removing the tumor, removing
a cancerous part of the body in
00:48:03.48\00:48:07.32
order to
preserve the rest of it.
00:48:07.32\00:48:08.88
>>JAMES: You know, I really like
that because in Luke chapter
00:48:08.88\00:48:11.35
5:30-32, Jesus describes himself
as a physician, and it reminds
00:48:11.35\00:48:16.36
me of a story, I had 2 dogs,
Jake and Willy, they were labs,
00:48:16.36\00:48:19.39
brothers for many years, and
both of them died of cancer, it
00:48:19.39\00:48:24.03
was a little different with
Jake than it was with Willy.
00:48:24.03\00:48:26.63
Willy was the
first one to get cancer.
00:48:26.63\00:48:28.14
And he got it in his eye,
and we didn't know what it was.
00:48:28.14\00:48:30.67
We just said, whoa, his eye
looks kinda funny, it's kinda
00:48:30.67\00:48:32.84
changing in its appearance.
00:48:32.84\00:48:34.18
It's like he's going blind.
00:48:34.18\00:48:35.38
And we took him to the vet
and they told us, he has cancer,
00:48:35.38\00:48:38.88
it's in his eye, if you remove
the eye, there's a possibility
00:48:38.88\00:48:43.08
that the dog will survive.
00:48:43.08\00:48:45.52
And I think this is a beautiful
picture of what we see in
00:48:45.52\00:48:48.12
Genesis.
00:48:48.12\00:48:49.29
God sees the cancer of sin
permeating the entire body of
00:48:49.29\00:48:52.83
the human race and
he puts the race down.
00:48:52.83\00:48:56.03
When we took Willy, I wasn't
there, my wife took him in.
00:48:56.03\00:48:59.07
When we took Willy in to
the vet, she broke down, she
00:48:59.07\00:49:03.30
couldn't handle it.
00:49:03.30\00:49:04.54
In fact, later, I'm just gonna
cut this story short, but just
00:49:04.54\00:49:06.51
to make this one point, later,
when Jake also got cancer, when
00:49:06.51\00:49:11.91
I had to put him down, I told my
wife, I said, I'm here, I'll put
00:49:11.91\00:49:14.68
him down, don't worry, I know
you couldn't handle this, I'm
00:49:14.68\00:49:16.95
the man, I'll
take it, I got this.
00:49:16.95\00:49:18.69
Took him in to the vet, the vets
say to me, hey, if you need to
00:49:18.69\00:49:21.79
leave, if this is too much,
no, I'm good, I can handle this,
00:49:21.79\00:49:24.59
boom.
00:49:24.59\00:49:26.09
I go in there, they put the
first shot in, I literally fell
00:49:26.09\00:49:30.33
apart.
00:49:30.33\00:49:31.50
I was weeping, I left there,
I just couldn't even control
00:49:31.50\00:49:33.84
myself.
00:49:33.84\00:49:34.94
>>TY: And you're a fallen,
dysfunctional human being,
00:49:34.94\00:49:36.30
what's the
heart of God grieving?
00:49:36.30\00:49:38.67
>>JAMES: The heart of God is in,
in Hosea, God gives his heart,
00:49:38.67\00:49:42.74
he talks about how, and
the reason I think this is so
00:49:42.74\00:49:45.95
powerful is because it lines
up with, and I'm just gonna say
00:49:45.95\00:49:48.52
this quickly, I'm not gonna take
a lot of time with this, but it
00:49:48.52\00:49:51.29
lines up with another
story in Sodom and Gomorrah.
00:49:51.29\00:49:53.25
A story where God comes down
and sees the evil that is taking
00:49:53.25\00:49:57.39
place there.
00:49:57.39\00:49:58.56
The cries have come up and
there's one verse here, in verse
00:49:58.56\00:50:00.56
20 of Genesis chapter 18, it
says, the Lord said, because the
00:50:00.56\00:50:04.77
cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is
great and because their sin is
00:50:04.77\00:50:08.97
grievous.
00:50:08.97\00:50:10.47
We see grievous sin in the world
today and we wanna do something
00:50:10.47\00:50:13.27
about it.
00:50:13.27\00:50:14.51
We wanna do something about the
slave trade and the sex traffic
00:50:14.51\00:50:17.11
trade and pornography
that affects children.
00:50:17.11\00:50:20.45
We wanna do
something about that, don't we?
00:50:20.45\00:50:21.65
And this is what God sees in
Sodom and Gomorrah and Abraham
00:50:21.65\00:50:25.12
is pleading with God and God's
like, yeah, if there's 50, if
00:50:25.12\00:50:28.36
there's 45, if there's' 40,
if there's 30, if there's 10, I
00:50:28.36\00:50:33.29
will save that city.
00:50:33.29\00:50:34.20
He barely got one
and the two daughters.
00:50:34.20\00:50:35.90
Barely and God is just, in
Hosea, God is just saying how
00:50:35.90\00:50:39.77
can I give you up?
00:50:39.77\00:50:41.17
How can I let you go?
00:50:41.17\00:50:42.40
And I think about my dogs and
I think about the fact they had
00:50:42.40\00:50:44.44
cancer and I didn't want them
to die but I knew that it was
00:50:44.44\00:50:48.04
better for them, it was an
act of mercy to put them down.
00:50:48.04\00:50:53.55
>>TY: James, I wanna emphasize
that in Genesis 18, the Sodom
00:50:53.55\00:50:57.49
and Gomorrah story, you
mentioned this really fast in
00:50:57.49\00:51:00.52
passing, but I think we need
to really emphasize that it says
00:51:00.52\00:51:05.39
that the reason God intervened
is because the cries of
00:51:05.39\00:51:11.17
sufferers were
coming up before him.
00:51:11.17\00:51:13.17
There was an
outcry against Sodom.
00:51:13.17\00:51:15.84
There were children who were
being mistreated, there were
00:51:15.84\00:51:19.21
women being mistreated and God
intervened to end suffering, not
00:51:19.21\00:51:24.85
to impose suffering.
00:51:24.85\00:51:28.05
>>JEFFREY: The passage is pretty
rough, man, I mean, the passage
00:51:28.05\00:51:32.22
implies that it was customary
in a society where if you're a
00:51:32.22\00:51:36.89
visitor and you're a man, you're
strolling into town, that gang
00:51:36.89\00:51:41.10
rape of men, raping
another man was customary.
00:51:41.10\00:51:45.90
>>JAMES: And the
women were offered.
00:51:45.90\00:51:48.54
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, and
women were treated...
00:51:48.54\00:51:49.77
>>JAMES: In the
place of the men.
00:51:49.77\00:51:51.34
>>TY: This isn't women with
their strollers on their way to
00:51:51.34\00:51:54.98
Target or Walmart, and
God just flies off the handle.
00:51:54.98\00:51:57.65
This is a decadent culture.
00:51:57.65\00:51:59.51
>>DAVID: Ty mentioned earlier
in the first segment of this
00:51:59.51\00:52:03.02
program that you just quickly
ran by, power corrupts, and yet
00:52:03.02\00:52:06.92
the reality is that that's a
statement from Lord Acton, and
00:52:06.92\00:52:10.43
the context of that statement's
fascinating, no need to go into
00:52:10.43\00:52:12.73
it here, but when he said power
tends to corrupt and absolute
00:52:12.73\00:52:15.06
power corrupts absolutely, God
has given humanity a sphere in
00:52:15.06\00:52:18.33
which to operate.
00:52:18.33\00:52:19.53
So, the people of Sodom had,
they had power over their city,
00:52:19.53\00:52:24.04
they had power over their
lives, they had power over their
00:52:24.04\00:52:26.11
families, but when that
power has been so employed, so
00:52:26.11\00:52:31.61
misemployed, so corrupted and
perverted that it's beginning to
00:52:31.61\00:52:35.62
affect people outside of that,
their sphere of influence, and
00:52:35.62\00:52:40.42
then, furthermore, add on top of
that, those people, if they're
00:52:40.42\00:52:44.46
reproducing, so now, you have
children born into environments
00:52:44.46\00:52:48.70
that are so corrupt.
00:52:48.70\00:52:51.77
I mean, we find instances in the
Old Testament where people were
00:52:51.77\00:52:54.14
putting their children into
the fire to a god named Molech.
00:52:54.14\00:52:59.07
And there's this great text in
Jeremiah, where God says, this
00:52:59.07\00:53:01.14
never even came into my mind.
00:53:01.14\00:53:03.08
What are you doing?
00:53:03.08\00:53:06.78
So, the idea that God would come
down and say, and he's uniquely
00:53:06.78\00:53:12.32
qualified to do so.
00:53:12.32\00:53:13.56
The vet was uniquely qualified
to say, hey, look, this dog is
00:53:13.56\00:53:18.36
not gonna survive.
00:53:18.36\00:53:19.69
God is uniquely qualified to
look at Sodom and say, there's
00:53:19.69\00:53:23.23
nothing
redeemable in that culture.
00:53:23.23\00:53:25.20
Now, somebody says, well, why
doesn't God come down and force
00:53:25.20\00:53:28.14
them to, but that's not
the way that human beings work.
00:53:28.14\00:53:31.47
A man convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still.
00:53:31.47\00:53:33.81
If God could force every human
being to believe the ideal, to
00:53:33.81\00:53:37.45
accept the ideal, to be loving,
kind, you know, just, merciful,
00:53:37.45\00:53:40.98
well, surely he would do it.
00:53:40.98\00:53:42.75
>>TY: Well, we do have the story
of Nineveh and God didn't force
00:53:42.75\00:53:46.09
but they changed
and he didn't destroy.
00:53:46.09\00:53:49.32
>>JAMES: Right, and
that's God's purpose.
00:53:49.32\00:53:51.09
>>JEFFREY: Guys, can I put some
other rough, rough stuff on the
00:53:51.09\00:53:56.46
table?
00:53:56.46\00:53:57.63
I just wanna read some of
the, some really hard passages.
00:53:57.63\00:54:01.94
And I'm gonna read from
Deuteronomy chapter 20, we're on
00:54:01.94\00:54:05.27
this very subject of the whole
surgeon, cancer and so forth,
00:54:05.27\00:54:10.88
but this is usually what's
alluded to when people bring up
00:54:10.88\00:54:13.85
difficulties in
the Old Testament.
00:54:13.85\00:54:16.05
Deuteronomy chapter 20,
I'm beginning in verse 16, the
00:54:16.05\00:54:19.62
cities of these peoples which
the Lord your God gives you as
00:54:19.62\00:54:24.46
an inheritance, you will
let nothing that breathes remain
00:54:24.46\00:54:27.66
alive.
00:54:27.66\00:54:28.63
But you will
utterly destroy them.
00:54:28.63\00:54:31.70
The Hittite, the Amorite, the
Canaanite, the Perizzite, the
00:54:31.70\00:54:36.57
Hivite, the Jebusite, different
people groups, just as the Lord
00:54:36.57\00:54:41.81
your God has commanded you, lest
they teach you to do according
00:54:41.81\00:54:45.08
to all their abominations.
00:54:45.08\00:54:46.78
>>DAVID: That's the point.
00:54:46.78\00:54:47.98
>>JEFFREY: Which they have
done for their gods, and you sin
00:54:47.98\00:54:51.59
against the Lord your God.
00:54:51.59\00:54:52.82
So, I just wanna make a really
quick jump from there and ask
00:54:52.82\00:54:56.32
the question,
who are these people?
00:54:56.32\00:55:00.96
Who are these people?
00:55:00.96\00:55:03.40
What is God doing here?
00:55:03.40\00:55:05.10
What is he reacting to?
00:55:05.10\00:55:06.84
And there's a description of
that, actually, if we go back to
00:55:06.84\00:55:10.14
Leviticus.
00:55:10.14\00:55:11.31
In Leviticus, we have a specific
description that helps me
00:55:11.31\00:55:14.98
process.
00:55:14.98\00:55:16.21
In Leviticus 18, I may need
to hurry here, clock is ticking,
00:55:16.21\00:55:18.51
but in Leviticus chapter 18, God
explains what's going on here,
00:55:18.51\00:55:23.39
and I'm reading from verse,
let's just start in verse 20.
00:55:23.39\00:55:27.22
Listen to the types of warnings
that the community of Israel
00:55:27.22\00:55:30.73
were given.
00:55:30.73\00:55:31.89
Moreover you shall not lie,
that is sleep with or engage in
00:55:31.89\00:55:36.13
sexual interaction, carnally
with your neighbor's wife, to
00:55:36.13\00:55:40.04
defile yourself with her.
00:55:40.04\00:55:41.40
You will not let any of your
descendants pass through the
00:55:41.40\00:55:45.94
fire to Molech, you were just
alluding to sacrifices and child
00:55:45.94\00:55:49.78
sacrifices, nor shall you
profane the name of the Lord
00:55:49.78\00:55:52.88
your God, I am the Lord.
00:55:52.88\00:55:54.32
You shall not lie with
a male as with a woman.
00:55:54.32\00:55:57.25
It is an abomination.
00:55:57.25\00:55:58.45
Nor shall you mate with any
animal, to defile yourself with
00:55:58.45\00:56:04.46
it.
00:56:04.46\00:56:05.63
Nor shall any woman stand before
an animal to mate with it.
00:56:05.63\00:56:08.90
It is perversion.
00:56:08.90\00:56:11.50
To me, you're looking at a
society, at a culture, at a
00:56:11.50\00:56:16.81
people group where sacrificing
children to fire was customary.
00:56:16.81\00:56:21.38
Where, and this is difficult
to even process, bestiality, by
00:56:21.38\00:56:25.11
which we mean human beings
engaging in sexual interaction
00:56:25.11\00:56:28.05
with animals.
00:56:28.05\00:56:29.98
So, you were saying that the
issue there was, not only that
00:56:29.98\00:56:33.19
they had the power to do
whatever they wanted to do
00:56:33.19\00:56:35.72
within their own society, but
this was becoming a problem that
00:56:35.72\00:56:38.79
was spreading.
00:56:38.79\00:56:39.93
>>JAMES: Yeah, and verse
24 says, all the nations are
00:56:39.93\00:56:41.73
defiled.
00:56:41.73\00:56:42.56
>>JEFFREY: All the
nations are defiled.
00:56:42.56\00:56:43.87
So, when we think of, hey
look, there's no question, that
00:56:43.87\00:56:47.77
doesn't immediately say, oh,
okay, no problem, I get why God
00:56:47.77\00:56:51.07
said, the Hittite, the
Canaanite, and why he needed to
00:56:51.07\00:56:54.71
remove them from society.
00:56:54.71\00:56:56.24
It doesn't enable be to walk
away squeaky clean, but it does
00:56:56.24\00:57:01.88
help me to understand, okay, how
would I feel, how would we feel,
00:57:01.88\00:57:05.22
how would the modern unbeliever
if we were aware that, in a
00:57:05.22\00:57:11.23
society near us,
this was happening?
00:57:11.23\00:57:12.93
>>DAVID: I can
answer that question.
00:57:12.93\00:57:14.10
We can answer that question
with the United States Military
00:57:14.10\00:57:16.73
policy right now.
00:57:16.73\00:57:17.83
Now, it's not perfectly
consistent and it's not in every
00:57:17.83\00:57:21.04
instance, but the US sees abuse
taking place in this country or
00:57:21.04\00:57:24.34
whatever and often, whether it's
legit or not, the point is that
00:57:24.34\00:57:28.38
we see ourselves in some
significant sense because we
00:57:28.38\00:57:31.31
have the ability to
stop oppression, injustice,
00:57:31.31\00:57:34.15
exploitation.
00:57:34.15\00:57:35.65
We feel a compulsion to do so.
00:57:35.65\00:57:37.65
I wanna just be clear, I'm not
endorsing the way we do it, the
00:57:37.65\00:57:41.06
point is, if we say, if I see
a 17 year old boy that I could
00:57:41.06\00:57:45.06
take, you know, that I could
wrestle to the ground, trying to
00:57:45.06\00:57:47.13
rape an 11 year old
girl, I'm gonna stop that.
00:57:47.13\00:57:49.10
I'm going to.
00:57:49.10\00:57:50.93
>>JAMES: Even if you couldn't
take down the person that's
00:57:50.93\00:57:52.83
doing that,
you're gonna intervene.
00:57:52.83\00:57:53.90
>>DAVID:
Intervene, I'll do something.
00:57:53.90\00:57:55.54
>>TY: And if in the process, you
had to stop the act by actually
00:57:55.54\00:58:00.11
injuring or ending the life
of the person who's doing that,
00:58:00.11\00:58:04.61
society would not call
you a murderer, but a hero.
00:58:04.61\00:58:08.08
God intervenes in similar
situations in scripture and we
00:58:08.08\00:58:13.39
call him a monster.
00:58:13.39\00:58:14.32
Do you see that?
00:58:14.32\00:58:15.79
I mean, we're completely
out of sync with reality.
00:58:15.79\00:58:18.89
The fact is that we don't see
God in the biblical narrative
00:58:18.89\00:58:24.50
flying off the handle in a
rage and being arbitrary in his
00:58:24.50\00:58:29.74
actions, we see God intervening
in mercy, intervening in
00:58:29.74\00:58:34.54
justice.
00:58:34.54\00:58:35.78
Doing what is right and we see
extraordinary patience over and
00:58:35.78\00:58:40.95
over and over again.
00:58:40.95\00:58:42.18
Why, you could ask the question,
why is there so much killing in
00:58:42.18\00:58:45.25
the Old Testament?
00:58:45.25\00:58:46.35
You could also ask the
question, why isn't there more?
00:58:46.35\00:58:48.62
Why didn't God
intervene more than he did?
00:58:48.62\00:58:51.36
>>JAMES: Yeah, why is
God allowing all of this?
00:58:51.36\00:58:52.39
>>TY: Why even now?
00:58:52.39\00:58:54.13
>>JAMES: He went
to flood 120 years.
00:58:54.13\00:58:55.43
>>TY: Exactly.
00:58:55.43\00:58:56.50
So, I think we've given
a good base for the answer.
00:58:56.50\00:58:59.53
There's still questions, but
that's the note upon which we
00:58:59.53\00:59:02.47
have to close.
00:59:02.47\00:59:04.21
[Music]
00:59:04.21\00:59:14.28
[Music]
00:59:14.28\00:59:29.46