Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000033A
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00:00 [Music]
00:00 [Music] 00:25 exciting. 00:26 I don't know if you guys, well, I do know that you guys 00:28 identify, this is actually fun. 00:31 There's all kinds of fun, there's the fun of bungee 00:34 jumping, there's the fun of surfing, there's the fun of 00:38 playing tennis, there's the fun of, my point is there's all 00:42 kinds of fun, different kinds of fun, but intellectual and 00:48 emotional and spiritual fun, the fun of discovery. 00:51 >>DAVID: The fun of fellowship. 00:53 >>TY: When you realize something that raises your gaze on your 00:59 fellow human beings and you just have higher hope and confidence 01:03 and raises your perspective on God, and you're thinking, wow, 01:07 God is more beautiful than I ever imagined, and I thought he 01:11 was beautiful. 01:12 And now, suddenly, it just goes to a whole new level. 01:15 That's what I've been experiencing in these 01:17 conversations. 01:18 >>DAVID: I wonder if it's fun for the cameramen. 01:22 [Laughter] 01:23 >>JAMES: Do people realize, do the viewers realize that we are 01:29 also experiencing learning, that we're grasping things and seeing 01:34 things? 01:35 In other words, we're not just coming here and saying, okay, 01:36 yeah, this is what we know, all this stuff, John chapter 1. 01:40 >>DAVID: That was big for me. 01:44 >>JAMES: That was beautiful. 01:45 >>DAVID: God gave Ty real clarity on that. 01:48 And I loved the whole Deuteronomy 30 thing, then 01:50 Proverbs 4, Proverbs 8, and then we went to Romans 10. 01:54 I loved that whole section. 01:55 >>TY: Well, let's set this one up. 01:58 This is the hard questions series and we're tackling some 02:02 difficult subjects. 02:04 What are you thinking? 02:05 >>DAVID: I just had a thought, could you remember, just a 02:08 little pop quiz here, just on the spot, pop quiz, can you 02:10 remember the hard questions that we've already done. 02:13 >>JEFFREY: Number one. 02:13 >>DAVID: What was number one. 02:14 >>JEFFREY: Does God exist and how do I know? 02:16 >>DAVID: What was number 2? 02:17 >>TY: Is the bible trustworthy, is it the word of God? 02:20 >>DAVID: Okay, number 3? 02:21 >>JEFFREY: If God is good, why do we suffer? 02:22 >>DAVID: Why is there so much suffering? 02:24 >>TY: Number 4. 02:25 >>DAVID: Number 4, I remember this one, this was if God is in 02:28 control, are we really free? 02:31 Then number 5. 02:34 >>TY: Was, can people who've never heard the name of Jesus be 02:37 saved? 02:38 >>DAVID: Excellent. 02:39 >>TY: And then number 6 was do we need God in order to be 02:41 moral? 02:43 And then this question. 02:45 >>DAVID: Those are good questions, guys. 02:46 And I love at least the trajectory of the direction of 02:51 the answers that we've given, and there's still an infinity 02:53 beyond. 02:54 It's not like, here, the four of us have like, okay, that's it, 02:57 no more needs to be said. 02:59 There's this great quotation from, I think it was CS Lewis 03:01 who said that many a book has not been written because the 03:04 author feared that his word would not be the last on the 03:07 subject. 03:08 You know, it's like, no, we're freely admitting that we're 03:12 groping in the darkness, coming up with some gems, but there is 03:16 an infinity beyond. 03:17 We would love to see small groups, churches, kitchens, 03:21 living rooms. 03:23 >>JEFFREY: And if we were to answer the question a year from 03:25 now, we would probably... 03:27 >>DAVID: Answer it in a different way. 03:28 >>JEFFREY: In a different way. 03:29 >>DAVID: In the same general direction. 03:30 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, because scripture's inexhaustible, so 03:32 you look at the same passage, the same chapters, the same, a 03:34 year from now, and through your experiences, it has changed. 03:37 >>DAVID: In a year from now, we would have changed. 03:39 A year from now, we will be different people than we are 03:41 right now. 03:42 >>JEFFREY: So your perspective on the text takes a different 03:43 side. 03:45 >>TY: Somebody was disappointed in me one, well, a lot of times, 03:47 but that didn't sound right, but I got communication. 03:51 [Inaudible chatter] 03:53 One time, somebody who was disappointed in me sent me a 03:57 letter and said, I'm disappointed because I detected 04:01 a change in your view of X topic and I can't remember what the 04:07 topic was, and I was a little troubled by that and I thought, 04:12 well, how do I answer that? 04:13 And the only answer that came to my mind, and I wrote back, and I 04:17 said, well what happened was, I kept reading. 04:22 >>DAVID: I love that answer. 04:24 I'm sure you've said that before and I love that. 04:25 >>TY: You can't, if you are comfortable in every respect 04:30 with every detail of what you believed last year right now, or 04:35 how you configured your understanding of God and the way 04:39 you relate to people, if you're completely 04:41 -- >>DAVID: And how you communicated to others. 04:42 >>TY: And how you communicated, if you're completely satisfied 04:45 and in exactly the same place, right now as you were a year 04:49 ago, two years ago, 5 years ago, something's wrong. 04:51 The truth is, you're not actually looking carefully at 04:57 the complexity of the beautiful subjects that scripture gives 05:01 us. 05:01 >>JEFFREY: Another way 05:02 -- >>DAVID: It's like saying you've arrived. 05:03 >>JEFFREY: Another way I've heard that said is, if you 05:09 or discarded an old one in the last couple of years, then 05:12 you're just simply not using your brain. 05:13 >>TY: You're not maturing. 05:15 >>JAMES: Another way to say it is, if any man thinks he knows 05:16 anything, he's knows nothing that he ought to know, and 05:19 Proverbs 4:18 says, the path of the just... 05:22 >>TY: Is like a shining light that shines more and more until 05:25 the perfect day. 05:26 And another way of saying it, is Paul, knowledge puffs up, but 05:34 love edifies. 05:35 >>JAMES: And we see as a child, we speak as a child, we see 05:39 through a glass to them face to face and in glory to glory. 05:43 >>DAVID: Faith to faith, day by day. 05:45 >>TY: The topic that we're tackling now is a seriously 05:49 difficult one and quite honestly, I'm not even sure all 05:53 that will emerge in our conversation because this is a 05:57 challenging question and the question is this, if God is 06:02 forgiving, then why did Jesus have to die? 06:06 In other words, you could ask the question this way, if God is 06:10 forgiving, that is, if that's his state of being, he's already 06:13 that way, why did Jesus have to die? 06:15 Another way to ask the question is like this, was the death of 06:20 Jesus necessary in order for God to forgive? 06:26 That would be another way of coming at the question, and yet, 06:31 another way of looking at it is to ask this, did God need, did 06:40 God need to see or inflict suffering in order to forgive? 06:46 So, you can come at that question from a number of 06:49 different angles. 06:50 >>JEFFREY: I can see how that could be really controversial. 06:52 >>DAVID: That's a thorny question. 06:53 >>TY: You could also ask the question like this, what comes 06:55 first, the chicken or the egg? 06:57 What comes first, forgiveness and then the sacrifice, or the 07:02 sacrifice and then forgiveness? 07:04 You see what's going on there? 07:06 There's a dynamic to the whole thing. 07:07 >>JEFFREY: Did Jesus die because it was necessary for him to die 07:11 in order for God to show us his love, or did God do that just, 07:15 what am I trying to say? 07:16 Is it necessary, the legal language, Jesus had to die, or 07:24 is that just a way God expressed his love? 07:28 You see what I'm saying? 07:29 Was a necessity, or was it just a way for God to express his 07:32 love? 07:33 >>TY: So, you do feel the weight of the question, I feel the 07:33 weight of the question. 07:35 It's not a trite, simple, here's one bible verse and we can close 07:39 with prayer. 07:40 >>DAVID: None of these questions are that way. 07:41 >>TY: Yeah, it's genuinely a hard question. 07:44 So, where would you begin? 07:47 I've thought it through and I think I know where I would 07:50 begin, but where would you begin to answer that question? 07:53 >>DAVID: Well, let me just say this right at the outset, and I 07:57 think this would be just helpful for the readers to know a bit of 07:59 behind the scenes or the readers, excuse me, the viewers, 08:04 in many cases, this being a case in point, we just sit down, this 08:08 is a Table Talk, it's not like, okay, James, then you'll say 08:10 that, and after he's done talking for about 2 minutes, 08:13 then you come in, here's the question, and in many of these 08:16 questions, we're thinking about it right now. 08:19 >>TY: Yeah, here are my notes. 08:20 >>DAVID: Show that to the camera. 08:23 >>TY: Yeah, here are my notes. 08:26 Basically, it's number 7, if God is forgiving, why did Jesus have 08:30 to die? 08:31 And then, there's just a bunch of lines with nothing written 08:33 down because we're genuinely trying to understand this 08:40 subject. 08:40 We want to comprehend it. 08:42 Now, as I approach the subject personally, I think that the 08:48 best place to start is in Genesis 3, and I'll tell you 08:51 why. 08:52 In Genesis chapter 3, we see the fall of humanity and we see the 08:59 aftermath of that fall is some very serious psychological and 09:05 emotional fallout. 09:07 Adam and Eve are impacted by the fall and they experience guilt 09:16 and fear and a sense that they are now in need of covering. 09:26 They, something needs to compensate, something needs to 09:28 make up, something, this can't be exposed, what I am is no 09:33 longer to the open, to just begaze of God and one another, 09:39 they're afraid, they're hiding, they're hiding from God, they're 09:43 expecting something from God that is unlike what you see 09:49 actually pan out, they're expecting God to come in such a 09:53 way that requires them to hide, then God does come and he says, 09:57 where are you? 09:58 They come and present themselves before him and they say, we were 10:02 naked and afraid so we hid ourselves. 10:05 God says, who told you you were naked? 10:09 Who told you you were naked? 10:11 And then, God proceeds to explain that there will be 10:14 something that he refers to with the language, curse, there's 10:18 going to be fallout, things are going to happen, things are 10:21 going to unfold upon the human race because of the fall, 10:25 because of sin, and then God makes a promise that I'm going 10:29 to, I'm going to save you. 10:31 I'm going to do something, I'm gonna step into human history, 10:35 I'm going to send through the lineage of the woman a seed, a 10:39 particular offspring, capital S, capital O, and that offspring is 10:45 going to crush the head of the serpent and is going to, is 10:51 going to turn the tide of history. 10:54 So, that's Genesis chapter 3. 10:56 I think that that is the basis for the answer to the question, 11:05 is God forgiving and if God is forgiving, why would Jesus have 11:12 to die? 11:13 Why didn't God just come into the garden, in other words, and 11:15 say, listen, I forgive you, let's just move on from here. 11:20 Why not? 11:21 >>JEFFREY: When I think of that question-- 11:22 >>DAVID: That was a great synopsis, by the way. 11:24 >>JEFFREY: I'm thinking we should follow our rule that 11:27 we've been following and that is define our terms. 11:30 If God is forgiving, I would just stop right there, on that 11:35 word forgiving. 11:37 What is the nature of the thing that God is trying to find a 11:41 solution for? 11:42 What's the nature of the thing? 11:44 >>DAVID: What's the nature of forgiveness? 11:46 >>JEFFREY: No, what is sin of the thing that's being forgiven? 11:52 To me, an exploration of the nature of sin. 11:56 I'm thinking that would take us into some good territory there, 11:59 to show what is the, you know, the inevitable answer to that 12:04 question. 12:05 What is the thing being forgiven? 12:06 >>DAVID: Well, there's no better place to start than in Genesis 12:09 3. 12:10 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, where you started, I 12:11 think, is the place, but analyzing that question. 12:15 tongue. 12:15 >>JAMES: Nature of sin and the nature of God. 12:18 Who is God? 12:19 Who is he? 12:21 And then what is sin? 12:23 Those two things. 12:24 We identify those two things, and I'd like to start with God, 12:27 just in the context of Exodus chapter 20, just looking at, 12:31 there's a number of verses in the Old Testament, but just this 12:34 verse, this one verse in Exodus chapter 20, God is giving to 12:38 Moses, for the people, a revelation of the 10 12:41 Commandments, which is really a revelation of him, his 12:43 character, what he's like. 12:44 And in the context of this, he actually describes himself in 12:49 this way, in verse 6, he says, he says, showing mercy unto 12:53 thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. 12:58 Excuse me, verse 5, sorry, thou shall not bow down to thyself, 13:01 most sure of them, for I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God, 13:04 visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon the children unto 13:07 the third and fourth generation that hate me and showing mercy 13:10 unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. 13:12 In other words, verses 5 and 6 are basically saying, and a 13:16 number of other verses, we can affirm this, that God is 13:18 merciful and God is just. 13:21 God is love and in being a God of love, God is merciful, he 13:26 wants to forgive, forgive, forgive, but God is also just. 13:28 There's this aspect to love that includes being just or being 13:33 what my daughter says, a lot of and it's really funny because 13:38 there's this innate sense of justice, even in kids today. 13:43 My daughter is 5 years younger than my son, and when he got to 13:46 a certain age, he had a lot of liberties that she didn't have 13:49 and when these liberties started, we started to bestow 13:53 them on him and she saw these liberties that he had that she 13:56 didn't have, she said, that's not fair. 14:00 Justice, fair, God is fair, God is fair, he's just, but he's 14:04 also merciful. 14:05 Now, in the thinking of sin, and we still need to identify that, 14:09 but just to get us moving in that direction, in that 14:12 thinking, how can you forgive sin and allow mercy and justice 14:17 both at the same time? 14:18 That's a dilemma I think that we have to deal with. 14:21 >>DAVID: That's at the heart of the question. 14:22 >>TY: It's a balancing act that is, can I say it this way, it's 14:28 a balancing act that is natural to God's character. 14:33 In other words, God is 100% fully just and God is 100% fully 14:42 merciful and both of those attributes, both of those 14:49 hemispheres of reality are present in God simultaneously 14:54 all the time. 14:56 >>DAVID: They're not playing against them. 14:57 >>TY: They're not playing against one another. 14:59 There's a sense in which, as you read scripture, you get the 15:02 sense that, in fact, they're one and the same thing and that's 15:06 the composite word that James used and that's love. 15:09 For example, we think of justice as dealing out punishment 15:15 sometimes, but if you read the word justice over and over again 15:18 in the Old Testament, God is asking his people to exercise 15:21 justice by being merciful to the poor. 15:25 He's saying, you've got the oppressed and the widows and the 15:28 people who are in need, do the right thing, be just by 15:33 extending compassion and mercy and relieving their suffering. 15:37 So, in that sense 15:39 -- >>DAVID: Do justly, love mercifully, walk humbly with 15:41 your God. 15:41 >>TY: So, mercy is justice. 15:43 Or, you could say it this way, the right thing to do, the just 15:47 thing to do is to forgive, to be merciful. 15:51 Simultaneously, if you flip it around, the merciful thing to do 15:58 is to be just. 16:01 So, they're married in the character of God, they are one 16:04 in the same thing manifesting themselves for different needs 16:11 in situations. 16:13 So, I think we're getting at the heart of the matter by the 16:17 justice and mercy thing. 16:19 >>JAMES: I'm jumping way ahead, perhaps, but I'd just like to 16:23 center this in the cross and a lot of times, when we talk about 16:25 the love of God and the manifestation of that love, in 16:28 Jesus Christ, I like to ask the question, when you look at 16:32 Calvary, what do you see? 16:34 Mercy or justice? 16:36 >>TY: Yes. 16:37 >>JAMES: Yes. 16:38 >>DAVID: Oh, I said the same thing. 16:39 >>JAMES: And this is, I think, what Ty is saying, and 16:42 inevitably, we look at the heart of God, and we see the perfect 16:47 blending of both, and you see this in the book of Revelation, 16:51 there's this picture in the book of Revelation of the throne of 16:53 God and there's this rainbow, this emerald rainbow, this green 16:57 rainbow above the throne. 16:58 >>DAVID: Does he say emerald? 16:59 >>JAMES: Well, the color there is. 17:01 I think it's emerald. 17:02 >>DAVID: Oh, I don't remember that. 17:03 >>JAMES: It doesn't say it in the King James, but in other... 17:06 >>DAVID: No, I just, I'm not questioning you, that's just a 17:09 beautiful picture came into my mind and I hadn't heard that. 17:11 >>JAMES: And when we think of a rainbow in our physical world, 17:15 when we look out in nature and we look for a rainbow, there are 17:17 2 elements that are necessary for a rainbow to be present. 17:20 The first element, of course, is rain, most of the times, when 17:24 there's a blue sky and sunshine, we're not even gonna think that 17:26 there's gonna be a rainbow possibility, but the other 17:29 element that is necessary for a rainbow is sunshine. 17:33 Have to have sunshine. 17:34 So, you have this rain coming down and then, all of a sudden, 17:37 the clouds break, the sun comes through, and then, you're 17:40 looking around, you're thinking, there's gotta be a rainbow 17:42 around here somewhere, there's, it's a combination of these two 17:44 elements that seem to be opposite. 17:46 Usually, you'd have rain or you'd have sunshine, but when 17:49 these two elements come together and they blend perfectly, you 17:51 have this rainbow, and so, when you look at the throne of God, 17:54 it says, it's established, and this is so powerful to me, 17:57 because in Revelation 5, the word uses set, the throne, I saw 18:01 a throne set in heaven. 18:03 And then, in Revelation 5, it gives us a picture of the lamb 18:07 slain and next to the throne. 18:08 So, what I think is happening here is we're seeing Calvary 18:12 establishing God's throne in our lives and hearts, establishing 18:15 this picture of love that is based on the perfect blend of 18:20 justice and mercy. 18:21 >>DAVID: I like that rainbow analogy. 18:23 >>TY: Yeah. 18:24 >>DAVID: Where I lived in Australia, on the southern part 18:26 of the Gold Coast, we get a lot of those beautiful rainbows 18:28 because there'll be storms just offshore and the sun will be 18:32 shining, you know, as the sun is going down in the west, it will 18:36 just light up the sky. 18:37 I mean, we get the most astonishing rainbows there, 18:39 because the rainbows are out on the ocean. 18:41 It's something to see. 18:43 >>TY: So far, we've articulated the question and we've begun to 18:48 inch into what the answer might be regarding the forgiveness of 18:56 God and whether or not the death of Jesus was necessary for it or 19:02 it, the forgiveness, was manifested in his death. 19:07 We have to take a break, but we just need to be thinking, this 19:12 is the thing that we'll be exploring for all eternity, so 19:15 we couldn't possibly exhaust it, but I think we could give some 19:20 scripture, we could wrap some biblical language around this 19:23 idea. 19:24 So, we'll do that after the break. 19:27 truck which drove in from Durban where a ship was docked that 19:28 digma.com. 19:31 I am so excited about this website because you're about to 19:34 discover a powerful new way to share life transforming messages 19:39 and videos with your family, friends, and anybody else on the 19:42 planet who has access to a computer. 19:45 Digma is a Greek word. 19:47 It basically means, to show or to reveal something by means of 19:51 a pattern or an example of some kind. 19:54 It's the second half of the word paradigma, from which we get the 19:58 English word paradigm, as in paradigm shift. 20:02 And so, what you're going to find at digma.com is a growing 20:05 library of short videos and transcripts dealing with 20:08 paradigms and fundamental questions. 20:11 What's the meaning of life? 20:14 What is our origin and destiny as human beings? 20:17 What happens when we die? 20:20 Does God exist or are we alone in this vast universe? 20:24 Why is there so much evil and suffering in our world? 20:28 An estimated 70% of Americans have a computer right in their 20:33 home and stay in touch with family and friends by email, and 20:37 more than 400 million people are active on Facebook, and 5 20:43 million new users are signing up every week. 20:47 We are literally in the midst of a communications revolution of 20:51 massive proportion. 20:53 This is granting the gospel direct and easy access to 20:58 millions upon millions of homes and hearts, and that's what 21:04 digma.com is all about. 21:06 It's a tool for leading our family and friends on an 21:10 exciting paradigm shift by revealing the truth of God's 21:14 creative power and his incredibly beautiful character 21:18 in contrast to our world's popular misconceptions about who 21:24 God is. 21:26 [Music] 21:34 >>TY: So, we've set up the question quite nicely, I think, 21:37 and we all kinda feel how serious the question is. 21:41 You can't help but wonder, is God a certain way and because he 21:48 is the way he is, then he does what he does? 21:54 Or, does God do what he does because he's prompted by 22:02 something that was done to make him otherwise what he was? 22:06 >>JAMES: That's what Jeffrey was saying. 22:07 I thought that's a good question. 22:08 >>TY: Now, the first scripture, this is a very common scripture 22:11 that almost anybody who's had familiarity with the bible has 22:15 read, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten 22:20 son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have 22:23 everlasting life. 22:25 That's John 3:16, then verse 17, for God did not send his son 22:30 into the world to condemn the world, but that the world 22:33 through him might be saved. 22:34 Then the scripture, very interestingly, goes on to say 22:39 that condemnation is already in the world, in other words, we're 22:44 already under condemnation and Jesus has come for the express 22:50 purpose of giving the light of God's noncondemnatory love for 22:57 us to respond to, so according to this scripture, it sure looks 23:00 to me like God is the way he is, i.e. 23:04 God is love, and out of that love, God says, I'm going to 23:09 give, I'm going to give my son to die and when I give him, when 23:14 I send Jesus into the world and the sacrifice is made, what 23:19 people are going to encounter in him is an absence of 23:23 condemnation. 23:24 Because they're already under condemnation. 23:26 Condemnation is natural to the sin problem that is already 23:30 weighing upon their hearts and their minds, and Jesus comes to 23:34 lift that condemnation by the revelation of his love and the 23:39 Father's love in the sacrifice that's made. 23:42 >>JAMES: Okay, Jeffrey's going next, then I got the next 23:44 ticket. 23:46 We need a little ticket machine here, you know, where you pull 23:47 it. 23:47 >>DAVID: Like the DMV. 23:48 >>JAMES: Yeah, just hand out these blocks. 23:50 >>JEFFREY: To go back on this whole nature of sin, because I 23:54 think that we're kinda skirting around the question, but we have 23:56 to face, we have to identify our terms, define our terms. 24:00 Back in Genesis chapter 2 and 3, the death concept is introduced 24:06 as the result of sin, right? 24:08 So, if God is forgiving, why did Jesus have to die? 24:12 Right? 24:13 So, there's death, but I think if we explore the foundation of 24:17 that whole concept, why did Jesus have to die in order to 24:21 extend forgiveness to sin? 24:23 It's because, I mean, at least, one step towards this, is 24:27 Genesis 2:17, that's the original, the original warning 24:32 here, in the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die. 24:36 That's where the whole concept of death is introduced, right? 24:39 So, sin comes into the race and sin leads to death. 24:42 But the interesting thing in chapter 3, and this goes more to 24:47 the psychology of sin, is lies were introduced to Adam and Eve 24:53 that caused them to question God, to question God's 24:57 character, to question God's motive. 25:00 Yeah, love, motive, mercy, justice, blah, blah, blah. 25:05 And in that questioning process is where they were led to sever 25:10 themselves from God and because of that separation, they were 25:15 susceptible to death. 25:17 So, the nature of sin, as it's couched in Genesis chapter 3, is 25:21 it's a separation from God, right? 25:25 So, God is the source of life. 25:28 When people sever their connection from God, they're 25:30 now, they're now susceptible to death. 25:32 So, I think, at least in my mind, that takes me a step 25:37 towards the answer to that question, why did Jesus have to 25:39 die? 25:40 Because what he's dealing with is sin and the nature of sin is 25:43 separation from God, the source of life. 25:45 So, Jesus had to die because in order to deal with the problem 25:50 death had to take place. 25:52 >>TY: Okay. 25:53 [Inaudible chatter] 25:59 >>TY: I won't forget the question because it's a serious 26:02 one in relation to what he said. 26:04 >>JAMES: Romans 6:23 says, for the wages of sin is death, but 26:07 the gift of God is eternal life with Jesus Christ our Lord. 26:10 So, I wanna affirm what Jeffrey said, the wages of sin is death. 26:14 But I wanna go back to what Ty said because what Jeffrey, 26:17 another point Jeffrey made that I think is really significant is 26:20 this, there was a misrepresentation of God in the 26:23 garden of Eden, and that misrepresentation of God clouded 26:28 God in such a darkness that there had to be a revelation of 26:35 who he really is. 26:36 And so, when we get to John 3:16, we have that revelation, 26:39 and here's the revelation, God so loved the world that he gave. 26:43 God did not, does not love the world, Jesus did not allow for 26:49 the Father to love the world, God doesn't love the world 26:52 because Jesus died for us, God already loved the world, and 26:56 that's why he gave his son to die for us. 26:59 And to me, that verse unlocks the whole key to this mystery. 27:04 So, when we look at why, we've gotta couch it in the context, 27:09 it's not because Jesus had to somehow persuade or convince the 27:13 Father to love us, for us, no. 27:16 The Father's love was already there. 27:17 it was there, and that unlocks, I mean, it just clouds, it 27:22 quiets, it destroys, decimates. 27:28 >>DAVID: Just go with decimate. 27:30 When it doubt, we'll go to decimate. 27:32 >>JAMES: It decimates this misapprehension and 27:35 misrepresentation of God and his character. 27:37 >>TY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 27:38 Where I was gonna go, oh. 27:40 >>DAVID: He had to thumb wrestle for it. 27:44 >>TY: Go. 27:44 >>DAVID: Are you sure? 27:45 >>TY: Yeah. 27:46 >>DAVID: I love what you're saying there, James, I just 27:47 wanna pick up the track that Jeffrey had about, I think I'm 27:50 with Jeffrey 100% here when he says that the way that we 27:55 discern why Jesus had to die, right? 27:59 I'm assuming now that this is a necessity, not just a novelty or 28:02 a nicety, it's a necessity, is because of the nature of sin. 28:07 Sin is separation from God, and the illustration, all I was 28:10 gonna say, it's very simple, is this, sin is not spilled milk. 28:13 If I were to spill some water on this table right now, we 28:17 wouldn't need to, okay, bring the bulldozer in, beep, beep, 28:21 beep, you know, it wouldn't have to, none of that, we'd wipe it 28:24 up. 28:25 It's a small problem, small solution. 28:27 Right, because the nature of the thing is such that there's just 28:30 a facile, simple, quick, and all is done in dust, so we continue 28:33 on. 28:34 Okay, so God comes down into the garden and Ty asked the 28:37 question, why didn't he just say, okay, sorry about that, or 28:40 you know, you guys are sorry, I forgive you, let's move on. 28:43 Because we're not dealing with, we're dealing with a 28:46 radioactive, nuclear meltdown. 28:50 Something has been released into the universe that is at absolute 28:56 polar odds with the nature, character, government, goodness 29:01 of God. 29:03 And I can just imagine, just allow me to just do this little 29:06 anthropomorphism, personification here. 29:08 God is saying, oh, no. 29:14 This is a thing. 29:16 This is a thing. 29:17 This is a thing. 29:20 The angels don't understand the nature of the thing. 29:22 Oh, no, no, no. 29:23 Adam and Eve certainly don't understand, because, and you 29:25 know that because they're like, okay, oh, yeah, hand me some of 29:27 those leaves, oh, that'll look nice, you know. 29:29 They're down like, they know that there's a problem, but they 29:32 think the problem will just, this is a spill. 29:35 No, we'll wipe this up, we'll put some stuff on, it'll all be 29:37 good. 29:38 And God comes down and says, you know what, you are gonna get 29:41 clothed because there is a nakedness, there is a shame, but 29:46 let me show you what that's going to involve. 29:47 Genesis 3:21, he makes them tunics of skins. 29:51 >>JEFFREY: Death. 29:52 >>DAVID: There's death. 29:54 The last thing I wanna say on this is that the nature of the 29:58 sin thing is this, watch this, God didn't say in Genesis 2:17, 30:03 in the day you eat of that tree, I'm gonna kill you. 30:06 This is not something external that God is imposing on the 30:10 situation. 30:11 He said, in the day you eat of that you will surely die. 30:17 And there's the difference. 30:19 There's the difference. 30:20 This is not an external imposition. 30:22 The nature of that thing, that's a radioactive leak. 30:25 It's a hand grenade that's been thrown into the universe, and 30:28 God is gonna throw himself onto the hand grenade in order to 30:32 preserve the lives of those who will be radioactively 30:35 contaminated. 30:36 >>TY: And the scripture that James read in Romans 6:23 30:40 parallels Genesis 2:17 and says the wages of sin is death, but 30:45 the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. 30:48 Notice that, again, that the wages of sin is death. 30:56 >>DAVID: Exactly, that's the point. 30:57 >>TY: Sin itself is the lethal force that is in play there and 31:03 then, notice the grammar that eternal life is from God. 31:07 >>JAMES: It's a gift from God. 31:07 >>TY: It's a gift from God. 31:09 So, again, we're dealing here with the nature of the 31:13 situation, not artificially constructed situations. 31:19 >>DAVID: It would be something, okay, let me go back to my 31:22 analogy, maybe this will be crude, maybe it won't be 31:24 helpful, but the analogy of spilled milk. 31:26 It's not as though God came into the garden, there's a little 31:28 spilled milk and he says, oh, no, there's spilled milk, I'll 31:31 go handle it, you know, as it were, grabs a knife or whatever 31:35 and, you know, ends his own life or ends somebody else's. 31:38 It's like, whoa, what is, that's quite the overreaction. 31:41 That's a little much, that's overly dramatic. 31:45 God is not creating a dramatic situation in order to elicit our 31:49 sympathy. 31:51 Our sympathies and our love and adoration and worship will be 31:54 elicited, but not because of some artificial situation that 31:56 God has created. 31:57 No, no, no, oh, man. 31:59 I would say it this way, there was no other way that man could 32:04 be saved. 32:06 There was no other way. 32:09 I can show you that in the text of scripture. 32:10 >>JEFFREY: If there were, David, God would surely have chosen 32:13 that way. 32:14 >>DAVID: Okay, let me bring you, let me show you the text that 32:15 says that, look at this. 32:16 Galatians. 32:17 Let me show you where Paul says exactly that. 32:21 Galatians chapter 2, the very thing that you just said, that 32:24 you and I were saying together there, Jeffrey, and look at what 32:25 he says here, in Galatians chapter 2, he says, in verse, 32:34 it's gonna take me just a second here, I was looking, that's not 32:37 it, where he says, for if it would've been possible for 32:41 righteousness to come, verily righteousness would've come by 32:43 the law, but God is, you know the text I'm looking for here. 32:48 Where's that text at? 32:49 >>JAMES: Verse 21, last one, last one, verse 21. 32:52 >>DAVID: Of Galatians 3. 32:54 >>JAMES: Yeah. 32:55 >>DAVID: Oh, yeah, thank you, I was looking in Galatians 2. 32:58 Galatians 3:21. 32:59 He says, is the law then against the promises of God? 33:03 Certainly not. 33:04 Is the law, is the Old Testament against the promise that God 33:07 made to Abraham. 33:08 Now, we're not gonna dig into the context, we don't need to 33:09 dig too deep into the context, because look at the point. 33:11 Certainly not. 33:12 For if there would've been a law given, if God could've given a 33:17 law whereby he could've given us life, truly, righteousness 33:23 would've been by the law. 33:25 And then, look at the first word of verse 22, what's the first 33:26 word of verse 22? 33:27 But. 33:29 In other words, he's saying, if God could've saved you by your 33:33 obedience, if God could've saved you by your fig leaves, by your 33:36 coverings, he would've done so. 33:39 But, and look at what it says, but scripture has placed 33:43 everyone under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ 33:47 might be given to those who believe. 33:48 Believe in what? 33:49 Believe in the solution that God would provide. 33:53 And this is not an artificial or arbitrary solution. 33:55 This is God in Christ doing for man what Paul is saying man 34:00 couldn't, it's impossible. 34:01 >>JEFFREY: The same thing Hebrews 9:22. 34:03 >>DAVID: I was just gonna go there. 34:05 >>JEFFREY: Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission. 34:08 >>DAVID: It's not possible that the blood of bulls and goats 34:11 should take away sin, that's just a few verses later. 34:12 Hebrews 10. 34:13 It's not possible. 34:14 >>TY: Let me just push this a step further and ask this 34:16 question, help me understand this, then, so, we've 34:20 established the death of Jesus Christ was absolutely 34:23 imperative, necessary, right, for our salvation. 34:26 >>JEFFREY: Because of the nature of sin. 34:28 >>TY: And we've established that it was necessary as the 34:35 extension of and revelation of love and forgiveness that is 34:39 already in the character of God. 34:42 God is forgiving in his nature. 34:45 So, then, why the need for suffering and death? 34:50 Why the need for suffering, in Christ, why the need for, I 34:57 mean, look at the cross, it's a bloody affair. 35:00 >>DAVID: And I got an answer here that's 35:02 -- >>TY: Nails driven through the hands, I mean, he's whipped, 35:04 he's beaten, he's hanging there, tortured, and then he 35:09 experiences the greater excruciating pain of separation 35:13 from the Father and he experiences, according to the 35:18 descriptions of his psychological experience in 35:21 Matthew 26 that he's experiencing the weight of guilt 35:25 and shame that isn't natural to him. 35:28 He's not himself guilty, he's not filled with shame. 35:31 So, why suffering and death? 35:33 >>DAVID: Can I give an answer here? 35:34 This is, okay, shoot me down here if I get this wrong, I'm 35:38 totally willing to be corrected, but I am of the mind that the 35:43 plan of salvation, our ability to be forgiven, our need of 35:49 being forgiven and that which enables that did not require the 35:53 crucifixion of Jesus. 35:57 >>JEFFREY: What do you mean? 35:58 >>DAVID: It did require the death of Jesus. 36:01 >>JEFFREY: The mode or the manner of death. 36:03 >>DAVID: Now, here's why I say that, go to the sanctuary 36:06 service, you go to the sanctuary service, the lamb is brought to 36:09 the court. 36:10 The lamb is brought to the, what do they do to that lamb? 36:12 Did they sling it around by its, and pound it a little bit, 36:16 torture it, torment it, tease it, bother it for an, take away 36:21 its water, take away its food for a period of time, torture it 36:25 and then let it die a death out in the elements of asphyxiation 36:29 and, no. 36:30 It was humanely killed. 36:34 What if the Jews, the religious, I'm not asking, I'm saying, what 36:39 if the religious leaders of the day had received Jesus? 36:44 This is our Messiah. 36:46 He's the one. 36:46 >>JAMES: Christ still would've died. 36:48 >>DAVID: Of course he would've still died because the wages of 36:50 sin is death, but would they have had to do all of that? 36:53 All of that, my thinking has been, and again, shoot back at 36:57 me, push back if I'm wrong here, that Satan is pushing, pushing, 37:01 pushing buttons, he is overplaying his hand, oh, I'll 37:04 take away food, oh, I'll, oh, the king of the Jews. 37:07 Oh, here's our rope, he's pushing, thinking, is he gonna 37:10 break? 37:10 >>JAMES: He's desperate. 37:12 >>DAVID: And Jesus just calmly, he's dignified, he's taken. 37:14 All of this is gonna redown to the glory of God. 37:16 All of this is going to make the gospel more powerful, more 37:21 beautiful, but God is not in heaven saying, oh, yeah, I love 37:23 that part. 37:25 I love it where they punch him in the face, I love it where 37:26 they pull the beard out. 37:27 No. 37:28 I don't know, that's my thinking. 37:30 >>JEFFREY: I was thinking something totally different. 37:32 >>DAVID: You get that? 37:33 >>JAMES: Yes, absolutely. 37:34 Satan is trying to break him, he's trying to break him. 37:36 >>TY: But, go ahead. 37:39 >>JEFFREY: I was just gonna say, I was thinking there might be a 37:41 sense in which sin causes not merely death, but it causes 37:45 pain, suffering, and misery, and the fact that Jesus was 37:49 subjected to that, through that process, just simply symbolizes 37:54 that he embodied not only the death that sin brings, but the 37:58 pain, the suffering that it also entails, the effects of sin. 38:03 >>DAVID: Can I just push back on that a little bit? 38:03 Here's my response to that. 38:05 There are so many passages in the whole of scripture in the 38:09 gospels in which Jesus is clearly under pain, the pain of 38:12 unbelief, the pain of people not accepting him, the pain of the 38:16 emotional duress, being surrounded by, I mean, think of 38:19 this, this, from the highest, most glorious, beautiful heaven, 38:22 he comes down here and there's a woman that, through some 38:24 scandalous, you know, situation, thrown at his feet, and these 38:28 are the religious leaders, he was in a continual state of 38:31 torturous pain of sin, in other words, I agree with that, but I 38:37 think that happens. 38:38 >>JEFFREY: But I hear what you're saying, I don't think we 38:40 as human beings had the capacity, nor the people in this 38:43 day, to process everything you've just said, therefore, he 38:47 subjected to the obvious physical ramifications. 38:51 You're talking about inward, none of the disciples were privy 38:54 to that, they were all clueless. 38:55 >>DAVID: In the wilderness. 38:56 >>JEFFREY: Oh, yeah, the hungry in the wilderness, but even 38:59 then, I would still say, you read Matthew 27, that process 39:02 there, to me 39:04 -- >>DAVID: Well, Matthew 27 would've still happened, or 39:05 Matthew 26 would've still happened. 39:07 >>JEFFREY: No, I'm referring to what you're talking about, the 39:09 physical beatings that Jesus was subjected to, to me, that 39:14 embodies the fact that sin is not merely a quick, like you 39:18 say, humane death, it's dirty, it's nasty, it's painful. 39:23 >>DAVID: And I agree with that, and the plan of salvation is all 39:25 the more amazing and beautiful and God's character was shown 39:28 through that. 39:30 But the sanctuary service does not communicate that that was 39:34 required. 39:35 I don't know. 39:36 >>JAMES: The thing that is significant about what you're 39:39 saying, David, is that it's revealing that God's salvation 39:43 plan, the purpose for God to save us didn't require those 39:47 things that he knew were gonna happen, he predicted it in 39:50 Isaiah 53. 39:51 But we don't have to put that on God's shoulders. 39:53 God is clear of that, even though it is gonna happen and 39:58 God knows it's gonna happen. 39:59 >>DAVID: And remember, Peter stands up in, what is it, Acts 2 40:01 or Acts 1, where he says, is it Acts 2 or 1 where he says, 40:04 delivered by the determined. 40:06 >>TY: Two. 40:07 >>DAVID: Acts 2. 40:07 Foreknowledge and counsel of God. 40:10 In other words, they're sitting around saying, how does the 40:13 Messiah end up on a Roman crucifix? 40:14 A Messiah, a deliverer? 40:16 How does that happen? 40:18 And he's like, hey, God knew this was coming. 40:19 He's thinking Isaiah 53, he's thinking suffering servant. 40:23 Absolutely. 40:25 No question, but how was that lamb, go back to the garden of 40:28 Eden, when the skins were made, how was that lamb dispatched. 40:33 Well, it was, God didn't say to Satan, hey, come in here and 40:37 come take care of this lamb, because he would've had his way. 40:40 You know, I'm just using an imaginative situation here. 40:42 That lamb would've been humanely dispatched. 40:44 >>JEFFREY: Of course. 40:45 >>TY: We have to take a break and then come back and I just, I 40:49 think this is just very eye opening. 40:50 It's extremely helpful for me to think about it in these terms 40:55 and I think that, as I'm processing what I've heard you 41:00 guys saying, there are obvious implications to what you're 41:06 saying, so we'll explore that when we come back. 41:09 segment though that we can delve into this further, but this is 41:10 ort, engaging messages 41:12 designed for opening up discussion with individuals and 41:15 groups regarding the character of God as well as for your own 41:19 personal spiritual growth. 41:21 For your free DVD sample collection of Digma videos, call 41:24 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell 41:32 Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 41:35 Once again, for your free DVD sample collection of Digma 41:39 videos, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 37457 41:47 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 41:52 Simply ask for Digma DVD 2. 41:55 Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 41:56 >>TY: I think this is, for sure, maybe the hardest question, the 41:59 biggest question, this is a subject we're gonna be probing 42:03 for all eternity. 42:04 I can hardly wrap my mind around it, but I wanna call to our 42:08 attention some additional, biblical scripture, some 42:12 biblical insight that might fill out the picture. 42:15 First of all, in Acts chapter 2 and verse 23, there is the 42:22 juxtaposition of two ideas. 42:26 >>DAVID: I'm sorry, I was distracted there, in Acts... 42:28 >>TY: In Acts chapter 2, verse 23, we have two ideas that are 42:31 running parallel and intersecting, okay. 42:33 And what the two ideas are, just see if this makes sense, the 42:38 action of God at Calvary is described and it says that God 42:43 delivered Christ up. 42:46 He delivered him to them. 42:49 Notice, then it describes the action of the human beings. 42:53 It says that they took him. 42:55 >>DAVID: What verse are you in? 42:55 >>TY: Verse 23, Acts 2:23. 42:58 God delivered him up, but lawless hands took him. 43:03 So, God's part in the situation is described, it's basically 43:10 giving Jesus over to sinners and those who actually crucified 43:19 him, according to this text, are the sinners. 43:24 Now, the reason this is important to my thinking is 43:28 because in 1 Peter chapter 2, verses 21-25, there is this 43:35 fascinating description of the cross that Peter gives to us 43:39 that I think is very rarely explored, at least in 43:43 theological discussions I've been a part of, rarely discussed 43:49 and that is that in Jesus, we see what is called an example, 43:56 and the example that he gave was one in which he was innocent and 44:01 he committed no sin, in verse 22, right. 44:06 No deceit was found in his mouth, who when he was reviled, 44:10 did not revile in return. 44:13 When he suffered, he did not threaten, but he committed 44:17 himself to him who judges righteously, who himself bore 44:22 our sins in his own body on the tree that we, having died to 44:27 sins, might live for righteousness, by whose stripes 44:30 we are healed. 44:31 There's a dynamic that is taking place here in which Jesus and 44:37 God the Father, in giving Jesus, what are they doing? 44:40 What is their action in the process? 44:43 They're refusing to retaliate against the hostility and the 44:47 enmity and the anger that is proceeding from human beings and 44:53 rather than responding in kind, you have Jesus with no returning 44:58 violence. 45:00 Jesus submitting himself to angry, raging, hostile human 45:05 beings who are at enmity with God, and so, what we see taking 45:08 place at the cross is not the Father venting on Jesus as a 45:16 third party whipping boy. 45:18 What we have at the cross is the Father giving Jesus over to the 45:22 hostility and anger and hatred that is in the human heart 45:25 against God. 45:26 And then, he's suffering at our hands, not at the Father's 45:31 hands, and the reason this is important for me is because you 45:36 basically have two models or two views of sacrifice or of 45:41 atonement that are present in our world of religion and 45:45 philosophy. 45:46 The pagan idea, if I can use that terminology, is that 45:50 sacrifice involves 3 parties. 45:53 >>DAVID: Use the blocks. 45:54 >>TY: Three parties, alright, so, if you have a 3 party view, 45:59 you have the sinner, you have God, who's the offended party, 46:05 and then you have a third party that has to be put in the middle 46:09 of the situation in order to receive the wrath, the anger, 46:13 the hostility that will come from God, the offended party and 46:17 block it from reaching the sinner. 46:20 That's one view. 46:21 In that view of the sacrifice, in that view of sacrifice and of 46:27 atonement, what's taking place is that there's a third party 46:31 that God is offloading his wrath and anger and hostility on. 46:37 But here's the thing, the biblical picture isn't a 3 party 46:43 view of atonement, it's a 2 party view of atonement. 46:46 There isn't God, the sinner, and then someone put in between to 46:53 receive, there's God and the sinner, and the one on the cross 46:58 is none other than God. 46:59 God is the one who is submitting himself to receive the 47:05 punishment, the weight, the horror, and everything that is 47:09 in what we referred to earlier as the nature of sin. 47:12 The wages of sin is death. 47:14 And the reason this is vital is because if the sacrifice is made 47:22 by a third party in between God and the sinner, then God's not 47:28 actually making sacrifice, God's requiring sacrifice. 47:32 >>DAVID: Oh, say that again. 47:33 >>TY: Yeah, God's not making the sacrifice, so it's not a display 47:37 of self-sacrificing love on God's part. 47:39 He's requiring the sacrifice from somebody else. 47:42 You can do an imaginary scenario like this, just imagine that the 47:47 sin problem has now become a reality, Adam and Eve have 47:50 fallen, and imagine that an angel or two angels or a 47:55 thousand angels step forward and say, we'll be the sacrifice, 47:59 we'll take the suffering, we'll be the ones to make the 48:03 sacrifice, and God has to say, it can't be you. 48:08 It has to be me because what's required, what's necessary to 48:14 resolve the hostility and the anger in the human heart, the 48:18 enmity that Paul talks about in Romans chapter 8, that the human 48:22 heart is an enmity against God and the law of God, that enmity 48:27 can only be resolved by what Peter describes here. 48:30 God, in Christ, has to submit and not retaliate against us and 48:37 make a non-violent approach to us and exhaust our violence 48:45 against him and in not retaliating, Peter goes on and 48:47 says, this is fascinating, he says, for we were like sheep who 48:51 were going astray, but now we've returned to the shepherd and 48:55 overseer of our souls. 48:58 We return or we repent because we see in him, we're punching 49:02 him, we're crucifying him, we're venting on him, and he just 49:06 keeps taking it and taking it and taking it and taking it and 49:09 the devil is hoping, hoping he's gonna break and he's going to, 49:13 he's going to do what the mob is telling him to do. 49:19 The mob is saying, if you're the Son of God, save yourself, save 49:21 yourself, come down from the cross. 49:23 Here's the irony, he could've. 49:26 He could have changed in his attitude toward them and rather 49:31 than Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing, 49:34 I'm gonna lay waste, you're not gonna treat me like this. 49:36 I'm gonna respond to you in kind, but no, he overcomes evil 49:40 with good. 49:41 And what is the good that he puts on display that he 49:44 overcomes with? 49:45 By loving them, loving them, loving them, loving them, loving 49:48 them, loving them, loving them to the end. 49:50 >>DAVID: I know what you're gonna say, but let me say this 49:52 real quick. 49:53 I'm not gonna touch down 10, and this'll take 20 seconds, that 49:56 very attitude was displayed just hours before when Peter pulls 50:01 out the sword, chops off the ear of the high priest servant and 50:05 Jesus turns and says, wait a minute, you're confused about 50:07 what's happening here. 50:09 Don't you think that I could call my Father right now and, as 50:11 you say, lay waste? 50:13 But if you're gonna live by that sword, then you're gonna die by 50:18 that sword. 50:19 I'm gonna show you a better power, I'm gonna show you 50:20 something more powerful than the sword. 50:22 >>TY: This is what's called, in some circles, the myth of 50:28 redemptive violence. 50:29 And the myth of redemptive violence shows up in all 50:32 superhero movies, in all cop shows, in the idea that the way 50:39 you take care of bad behavior, Jeffrey, you're doing something 50:45 wrong, the way I'm going to deal with your violence is by being 50:48 violent to you. 50:49 This is why nations rise up against nations in war, right? 50:54 But what would happen, it's the myth of redemptive violence, 50:57 violence is not redemptive. 51:00 You can't respond in kind and in the violence, what does it say, 51:05 a soft answer turns away wrath, what does it say in Revelation 51:09 chapter 13, I don't know the verse, I think it's verse 9, 51:12 that's what my memory's telling me that anyone who kills with 51:15 the sword will be killed with the sword. 51:16 >>JAMES: He that leads into captivity will go into 51:18 captivity. 51:19 Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 51:20 >>TY: And the patience and the faith of the saints is that they 51:22 don't participate in the tit for tat, the violence. 51:26 If you kill with the sword, that's the cycle. 51:29 Jesus broke the cycle of sin and violence by refusing to respond 51:37 to us with violence. 51:39 We're standing before the cross and he's forgiving us and loving 51:43 us and all we can do is look at that and say, I'm either going 51:50 to keep being like this, or that's gonna break the cycle in 51:53 me of retaliation and I'm gonna submit and bow before this and 51:57 say, wow, you're not going to, are you sure you're not gonna 52:01 throw any blows? 52:02 Because if he throws blows, then what is that going to perpetuate 52:05 in us? 52:07 Throwing blows back. 52:08 >>JEFFREY: This whole thing that you mentioned about the third 52:11 party and how Jesus is not just some third party that jumps in, 52:14 that the Father requires Jesus. 52:16 If that were the case, as you were saying, the Father wouldn't 52:20 be sacrificing, he would be requiring. 52:23 >>DAVID: He wouldn't be making a sacrifice, he would be requiring 52:26 a sacrifice. 52:27 >>JEFFREY: So, there's a succession, a sequence of verses 52:29 in John 10:15, where Jesus says, I lay down my life for the 52:33 sheep, John 10:17, I lay down my life, John 13:37, I lay down my 52:42 life for your sake. 52:44 So, there's this, like, there's this anthem, this echo all 52:48 through the New Testament where Jesus is saying, I lay down my 52:52 life, I lay down my life, so, that's an affirmation of what 52:55 you were just saying here. 52:56 God the Father and God the Son, the whole Godhead is involved in 53:04 this sacrifice. 53:05 And it's not... 53:06 >>JAMES: 2 Corinthians 5, God was in the world, reconciling 53:11 the world to himself. 53:12 >>JEFFREY: He chose to lay down his life. 53:13 >>JAMES: And we understand, go ahead. 53:15 >>DAVID: No, you go ahead. 53:17 >>JAMES: Well, I was gonna say, we understand this in the 53:18 context of the need for us to be reconciled to God and the need 53:23 for us to break the cycle, but we also need to understand it in 53:26 the context of the wages of sin is death. 53:29 So, we can't leave that out of the picture, you understand what 53:31 I'm saying? 53:33 In other words, okay, God has done this and he's broken the 53:35 cycle. 53:36 So, now we say to God, yes, that's what we want. 53:39 We accept that. 53:41 And in that context, there's still this wages of sin is death 53:45 that God has to deal with. 53:48 >>TY: But aren't we saying, though, that the death is the 53:54 product of the sin problem itself so that he's taken by, 53:58 God the Father delivers him up and the sinners take him and 54:03 crucify him. 54:04 That's the dynamic so that chapter 9 of Hebrews, verse 27 54:09 says, that Christ appeared once at the end of the world, to put 54:14 away sin, it's verse 26, to put away sin by the sacrifice of 54:18 himself. 54:20 So, God's action is an action of self-sacrifice and that 54:25 self-sacrifice that he's making is giving himself over to suffer 54:33 the full wages of sin in himself rather than saying, no, you're 54:37 gonna have to go through it, you're gonna suffer it, no, I'm 54:40 going to suffer it in your place, for you, I'm going to be 54:44 your substitute ensurity. 54:45 >>DAVID: And if Jesus is not fully and completely, by nature, 54:49 in all the fullness and sense of what it means to be God, then 54:54 the plan of salvation is fundamentally broken, because 54:57 now it's a God requiring a whipping boy rather than God 55:02 himself making the sacrifice. 55:04 And you were reading there in John 10, my favorite part is 55:06 verse 18, where he says, no one takes my life from me, I lay it 55:11 down myself. 55:12 He says the same thing to Peter, listen to, when he speaks to 55:16 Peter, he says, excuse me, when he's speaking to Pilate, listen 55:20 to what he says, you would have no power at all against me, 55:23 unless it had been given to you from above, and I love this idea 55:28 that he's saying, you can't, you think, you can't take my life 55:32 from me. 55:32 I'm gonna lay myself down. 55:34 I'm not being sacrificed, I'm making a sacrifice. 55:39 The other word I wanna say on that that's so, this is just 55:42 gigantic. 55:43 We have the question about who was delivered to, you know, who 55:47 delivered, and it's very interesting because in Acts 55:49 chapter 2, Peter says that he was delivered by the determined 55:52 counsel and foreknowledge of God. 55:55 But you know what's interesting, listen to this, John chapter 19, 55:57 verse 16. 55:58 Then he delivered him, then Pilate delivered him to the Jews 56:02 to be crucified. 56:03 Jesus says, therefore, the one who delivered me to you has the 56:06 greater sin. 56:07 There's all this deliverance that's going on. 56:09 The Jews actually take and deliver Jesus to Pilate because 56:13 they didn't have the right to administer an executive 56:16 punishment, a capital punishment, so they give him to 56:18 Pilate. 56:19 Pilate's like, well, I don't find any fault in the guy. 56:21 So, then, Jesus says, the one that delivered me to you has the 56:24 greater sin. 56:25 Then Pilate's like, well, I don't find any fault in him. 56:26 He delivers him back to the Jews and the Jews basically, the 56:32 Jewish leadership of the day, of course, not all Jews, the 56:34 disciples themselves were Jews. 56:35 They then initiate a series of events, a sequence of events 56:38 that will result in the, not just the death of Jesus, but the 56:43 tragic, terrible, unjust humiliation of Jesus and yet, 56:48 Peter can look on that and say that the deliverance to the 56:51 Jews, the deliverance from the Jews, the deliverance to Pilate, 56:54 the deliverance from Pilate, all of that, he says, God was in 56:57 that. 56:58 >>JAMES: But we were talking about a temporal death, and 56:59 that's my point. 57:01 My point is, is that all that we've described here is what, 57:03 you know, we talk about in the consequence of sin, but all that 57:06 we've described here is a temporal death. 57:09 >>DAVID: I don't think so. 57:10 >>JAMES: What I wanna just say, so that we're clear on this, is 57:12 that Jesus gave his soul up to death. 57:15 He died the second death and then Jesus says, don't fear him 57:18 that kills the body, but fear him that can kill body and soul 57:21 in hell. 57:22 So, there's a separation factor. 57:25 Why have you forsaken me? 57:27 There's a separation factor there that has to be brought 57:29 into this. 57:31 That's the consequence of sin. 57:32 >>DAVID: That's the essence of sin. 57:33 >>JAMES: Not just the temporal death. 57:34 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, that's a good wrap to Genesis 3. 57:36 Full circle. 57:37 >>DAVID: And the thing I wanna say, the only slight pushback 57:39 that I would have, and I love the fact that you've said that 57:41 is, when Jesus says, I lay down my life. 57:43 The life that he's laying down is not just the earthly, fleshly 57:47 life that, he is laying down, he's God. 57:50 >>TY: Yeah, he's giving the totality of himself. 57:53 >>DAVID: You know, Jesus, he wasn't play acting, Father let 57:56 this cup pass from me, let this cup pass from me, let this cup 57:58 pass from me. 57:59 If there's any other way. 58:01 >>TY: You know, you guys, there's an article that was 58:05 written back in the 1800s where Ellen White was describing the 58:09 very thing that we're trying to get at here and this is a really 58:12 good summary statement for me that's been helpful over the 58:16 years, the atonement of Christ was not made in order to induce 58:21 God to love those whom he otherwise hated, it was not made 58:25 to produce a love that was not in existence, but it was made as 58:31 a manifestation of the love that was already in God's heart as an 58:36 exponent of the divine favor in the sight of heavenly 58:40 intelligences, in the sight of worlds unfallen, and in the 58:44 sight of the fallen race. 58:48 And then, John 3:16 is quoted, for God so loved the world that 58:53 he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him 58:56 should not perish, but have everlasting life. 58:58 And then this, we are not to entertain the idea that God 59:04 loves us because Christ has died for us, but that he so loved us 59:12 that he gave his only begotten Son to die for us. 59:17 That's a good note upon which to close. 59:20 [Music] 59:30 [Music] |
Revised 2016-04-14