[Music]
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[Music]
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exciting.
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I don't know if you guys,
well, I do know that you guys
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identify, this is actually fun.
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There's all kinds of
fun, there's the fun of bungee
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jumping, there's the fun
of surfing, there's the fun of
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playing tennis, there's the
fun of, my point is there's all
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kinds of fun, different kinds
of fun, but intellectual and
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emotional and spiritual
fun, the fun of discovery.
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>>DAVID: The fun of fellowship.
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>>TY: When you realize something
that raises your gaze on your
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fellow human beings and you just
have higher hope and confidence
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and raises your perspective on
God, and you're thinking, wow,
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God is more beautiful than I
ever imagined, and I thought he
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was beautiful.
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And now, suddenly, it
just goes to a whole new level.
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That's what I've
been experiencing in these
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conversations.
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>>DAVID: I wonder if
it's fun for the cameramen.
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[Laughter]
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>>JAMES: Do people realize, do
the viewers realize that we are
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also experiencing learning, that
we're grasping things and seeing
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things?
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In other words, we're not just
coming here and saying, okay,
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yeah, this is what we know,
all this stuff, John chapter 1.
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>>DAVID: That was big for me.
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>>JAMES: That was beautiful.
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>>DAVID: God gave Ty
real clarity on that.
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And I loved the whole
Deuteronomy 30 thing, then
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Proverbs 4, Proverbs 8,
and then we went to Romans 10.
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I loved that whole section.
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>>TY: Well,
let's set this one up.
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This is the hard questions
series and we're tackling some
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difficult subjects.
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What are you thinking?
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>>DAVID: I just had a thought,
could you remember, just a
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little pop quiz here, just
on the spot, pop quiz, can you
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remember the hard questions
that we've already done.
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>>JEFFREY: Number one.
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>>DAVID: What was number one.
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>>JEFFREY: Does God
exist and how do I know?
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>>DAVID: What was number 2?
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>>TY: Is the bible trustworthy,
is it the word of God?
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>>DAVID: Okay, number 3?
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>>JEFFREY: If God is
good, why do we suffer?
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>>DAVID: Why is
there so much suffering?
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>>TY: Number 4.
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>>DAVID: Number 4, I remember
this one, this was if God is in
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control, are we really free?
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Then number 5.
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>>TY: Was, can people who've
never heard the name of Jesus be
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saved?
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>>DAVID: Excellent.
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>>TY: And then number 6 was
do we need God in order to be
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moral?
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And then this question.
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>>DAVID: Those are
good questions, guys.
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And I love at least the
trajectory of the direction of
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the answers that we've given,
and there's still an infinity
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beyond.
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It's not like, here, the four of
us have like, okay, that's it,
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no more needs to be said.
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There's this great quotation
from, I think it was CS Lewis
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who said that many a book
has not been written because the
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author feared that his word
would not be the last on the
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subject.
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You know, it's like, no, we're
freely admitting that we're
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groping in the darkness, coming
up with some gems, but there is
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an infinity beyond.
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We would love to see small
groups, churches, kitchens,
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living rooms.
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>>JEFFREY: And if we were to
answer the question a year from
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now, we would probably...
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>>DAVID: Answer it
in a different way.
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>>JEFFREY: In a different way.
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>>DAVID: In the
same general direction.
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>>JEFFREY: Yeah, because
scripture's inexhaustible, so
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you look at the same passage,
the same chapters, the same, a
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year from now, and through your
experiences, it has changed.
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>>DAVID: In a year from
now, we would have changed.
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A year from now, we will be
different people than we are
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right now.
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>>JEFFREY: So your perspective
on the text takes a different
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side.
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>>TY: Somebody was disappointed
in me one, well, a lot of times,
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but that didn't sound
right, but I got communication.
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[Inaudible chatter]
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One time, somebody who was
disappointed in me sent me a
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letter and said, I'm
disappointed because I detected
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a change in your view of X topic
and I can't remember what the
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topic was, and I was a little
troubled by that and I thought,
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well, how do I answer that?
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And the only answer that came to
my mind, and I wrote back, and I
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said, well what
happened was, I kept reading.
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>>DAVID: I love that answer.
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I'm sure you've said
that before and I love that.
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>>TY: You can't, if you are
comfortable in every respect
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with every detail of what you
believed last year right now, or
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how you configured your
understanding of God and the way
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you relate to
people, if you're completely
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-- >>DAVID: And how
you communicated to others.
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>>TY: And how you communicated,
if you're completely satisfied
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and in exactly the same place,
right now as you were a year
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ago, two years ago, 5
years ago, something's wrong.
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The truth is, you're not
actually looking carefully at
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the complexity of the beautiful
subjects that scripture gives
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us.
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>>JEFFREY: Another way
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-- >>DAVID: It's like
saying you've arrived.
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>>JEFFREY: Another way
I've heard that said is, if you
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or discarded an old one in
the last couple of years, then
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you're just simply
not using your brain.
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>>TY: You're not maturing.
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>>JAMES: Another way to say it
is, if any man thinks he knows
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anything, he's knows nothing
that he ought to know, and
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Proverbs 4:18 says,
the path of the just...
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>>TY: Is like a shining light
that shines more and more until
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the perfect day.
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And another way of saying it,
is Paul, knowledge puffs up, but
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love edifies.
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>>JAMES: And we see as a child,
we speak as a child, we see
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through a glass to them face
to face and in glory to glory.
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>>DAVID: Faith to
faith, day by day.
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>>TY: The topic that we're
tackling now is a seriously
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difficult one and quite
honestly, I'm not even sure all
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that will emerge in our
conversation because this is a
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challenging question and
the question is this, if God is
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forgiving, then why
did Jesus have to die?
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In other words, you could ask
the question this way, if God is
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forgiving, that is, if that's
his state of being, he's already
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that way, why did
Jesus have to die?
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Another way to ask the question
is like this, was the death of
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Jesus necessary in
order for God to forgive?
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That would be another way of
coming at the question, and yet,
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another way of looking at it is
to ask this, did God need, did
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God need to see or inflict
suffering in order to forgive?
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So, you can come at that
question from a number of
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different angles.
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>>JEFFREY: I can see how that
could be really controversial.
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>>DAVID: That's
a thorny question.
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>>TY: You could also ask the
question like this, what comes
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first, the chicken or the egg?
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What comes first, forgiveness
and then the sacrifice, or the
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sacrifice and then forgiveness?
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You see what's going on there?
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There's a dynamic
to the whole thing.
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>>JEFFREY: Did Jesus die because
it was necessary for him to die
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in order for God to show us his
love, or did God do that just,
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what am I trying to say?
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Is it necessary, the legal
language, Jesus had to die, or
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is that just a way
God expressed his love?
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You see what I'm saying?
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Was a necessity, or was it just
a way for God to express his
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love?
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>>TY: So, you do feel the weight
of the question, I feel the
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weight of the question.
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It's not a trite, simple, here's
one bible verse and we can close
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with prayer.
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>>DAVID: None of these
questions are that way.
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>>TY: Yeah, it's
genuinely a hard question.
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So, where would you begin?
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I've thought it through and
I think I know where I would
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begin, but where would you
begin to answer that question?
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>>DAVID: Well, let me just say
this right at the outset, and I
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think this would be just helpful
for the readers to know a bit of
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behind the scenes or the
readers, excuse me, the viewers,
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in many cases, this being a case
in point, we just sit down, this
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is a Table Talk, it's not like,
okay, James, then you'll say
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that, and after he's done
talking for about 2 minutes,
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then you come in, here's the
question, and in many of these
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questions, we're
thinking about it right now.
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>>TY: Yeah, here are my notes.
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>>DAVID: Show
that to the camera.
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>>TY: Yeah, here are my notes.
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Basically, it's number 7, if God
is forgiving, why did Jesus have
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to die?
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And then, there's just a bunch
of lines with nothing written
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down because we're genuinely
trying to understand this
00:08:33.98\00:08:40.12
subject.
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We want to comprehend it.
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Now, as I approach the subject
personally, I think that the
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best place to start is in
Genesis 3, and I'll tell you
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why.
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In Genesis chapter 3, we see the
fall of humanity and we see the
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aftermath of that fall is some
very serious psychological and
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emotional fallout.
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Adam and Eve are impacted by the
fall and they experience guilt
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and fear and a sense that they
are now in need of covering.
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They, something needs to
compensate, something needs to
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make up, something, this can't
be exposed, what I am is no
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longer to the open, to just
begaze of God and one another,
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they're afraid, they're hiding,
they're hiding from God, they're
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expecting something from
God that is unlike what you see
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actually pan out, they're
expecting God to come in such a
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way that requires them to hide,
then God does come and he says,
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where are you?
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They come and present themselves
before him and they say, we were
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naked and afraid
so we hid ourselves.
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God says, who told
you you were naked?
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Who told you you were naked?
00:10:09.20\00:10:11.41
And then, God proceeds to
explain that there will be
00:10:11.41\00:10:14.61
something that he refers to with
the language, curse, there's
00:10:14.61\00:10:18.48
going to be fallout, things
are going to happen, things are
00:10:18.48\00:10:21.05
going to unfold upon the
human race because of the fall,
00:10:21.05\00:10:25.35
because of sin, and then God
makes a promise that I'm going
00:10:25.35\00:10:29.02
to, I'm going to save you.
00:10:29.02\00:10:31.93
I'm going to do something, I'm
gonna step into human history,
00:10:31.93\00:10:35.23
I'm going to send through the
lineage of the woman a seed, a
00:10:35.23\00:10:39.67
particular offspring, capital S,
capital O, and that offspring is
00:10:39.67\00:10:45.77
going to crush the head of
the serpent and is going to, is
00:10:45.77\00:10:51.65
going to turn
the tide of history.
00:10:51.65\00:10:54.98
So, that's Genesis chapter 3.
00:10:54.98\00:10:56.79
I think that that is the basis
for the answer to the question,
00:10:56.79\00:11:05.36
is God forgiving and if God is
forgiving, why would Jesus have
00:11:05.36\00:11:12.63
to die?
00:11:12.63\00:11:13.87
Why didn't God just come into
the garden, in other words, and
00:11:13.87\00:11:15.27
say, listen, I forgive you,
let's just move on from here.
00:11:15.27\00:11:20.24
Why not?
00:11:20.24\00:11:21.14
>>JEFFREY: When I
think of that question--
00:11:21.14\00:11:22.41
>>DAVID: That was a
great synopsis, by the way.
00:11:22.41\00:11:24.38
>>JEFFREY: I'm thinking we
should follow our rule that
00:11:24.38\00:11:27.75
we've been following and
that is define our terms.
00:11:27.75\00:11:30.52
If God is forgiving, I would
just stop right there, on that
00:11:30.52\00:11:35.99
word forgiving.
00:11:35.99\00:11:37.19
What is the nature of the thing
that God is trying to find a
00:11:37.19\00:11:41.86
solution for?
00:11:41.86\00:11:42.70
What's the nature of the thing?
00:11:42.70\00:11:44.77
>>DAVID: What's the
nature of forgiveness?
00:11:44.77\00:11:46.90
>>JEFFREY: No, what is sin of
the thing that's being forgiven?
00:11:46.90\00:11:52.27
To me, an exploration
of the nature of sin.
00:11:52.27\00:11:56.01
I'm thinking that would take us
into some good territory there,
00:11:56.01\00:11:59.35
to show what is the, you know,
the inevitable answer to that
00:11:59.35\00:12:04.49
question.
00:12:04.49\00:12:05.25
What is the
thing being forgiven?
00:12:05.25\00:12:06.65
>>DAVID: Well, there's no better
place to start than in Genesis
00:12:06.65\00:12:09.06
3.
00:12:09.06\00:12:10.26
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, that's what
I'm saying, where you started, I
00:12:10.26\00:12:11.23
think, is the place,
but analyzing that question.
00:12:11.23\00:12:13.63
tongue.
00:12:15.00\00:12:15.96
>>JAMES: Nature of
sin and the nature of God.
00:12:15.96\00:12:18.10
Who is God?
00:12:18.10\00:12:19.47
Who is he?
00:12:19.47\00:12:21.74
And then what is sin?
00:12:21.74\00:12:23.24
Those two things.
00:12:23.24\00:12:24.47
We identify those two things,
and I'd like to start with God,
00:12:24.47\00:12:27.34
just in the context of Exodus
chapter 20, just looking at,
00:12:27.34\00:12:31.98
there's a number of verses in
the Old Testament, but just this
00:12:31.98\00:12:34.42
verse, this one verse in Exodus
chapter 20, God is giving to
00:12:34.42\00:12:38.42
Moses, for the
people, a revelation of the 10
00:12:38.42\00:12:41.29
Commandments, which is
really a revelation of him, his
00:12:41.29\00:12:43.69
character, what he's like.
00:12:43.69\00:12:44.93
And in the context of this,
he actually describes himself in
00:12:44.93\00:12:49.30
this way, in verse 6, he says,
he says, showing mercy unto
00:12:49.30\00:12:53.27
thousands of them that love
me and keep my commandments.
00:12:53.27\00:12:58.94
Excuse me, verse 5, sorry, thou
shall not bow down to thyself,
00:12:58.94\00:13:01.61
most sure of them, for I, the
Lord thy God, am a jealous God,
00:13:01.61\00:13:04.38
visiting the iniquities of the
fathers upon the children unto
00:13:04.38\00:13:07.75
the third and fourth generation
that hate me and showing mercy
00:13:07.75\00:13:10.45
unto thousands of them that love
me and keep my commandments.
00:13:10.45\00:13:12.49
In other words, verses 5 and
6 are basically saying, and a
00:13:12.49\00:13:16.09
number of other verses, we
can affirm this, that God is
00:13:16.09\00:13:18.79
merciful and God is just.
00:13:18.79\00:13:21.46
God is love and in being a
God of love, God is merciful, he
00:13:21.46\00:13:26.10
wants to forgive, forgive,
forgive, but God is also just.
00:13:26.10\00:13:28.17
There's this aspect to love that
includes being just or being
00:13:28.17\00:13:33.31
what my daughter says, a lot
of and it's really funny because
00:13:33.31\00:13:38.08
there's this innate sense
of justice, even in kids today.
00:13:38.08\00:13:43.39
My daughter is 5 years younger
than my son, and when he got to
00:13:43.39\00:13:46.62
a certain age, he had a lot of
liberties that she didn't have
00:13:46.62\00:13:49.59
and when these liberties
started, we started to bestow
00:13:49.59\00:13:53.09
them on him and she saw these
liberties that he had that she
00:13:53.09\00:13:56.36
didn't have, she
said, that's not fair.
00:13:56.36\00:14:00.20
Justice, fair, God is fair,
God is fair, he's just, but he's
00:14:00.20\00:14:04.47
also merciful.
00:14:04.47\00:14:05.71
Now, in the thinking of sin, and
we still need to identify that,
00:14:05.71\00:14:09.51
but just to get us moving
in that direction, in that
00:14:09.51\00:14:12.08
thinking, how can you forgive
sin and allow mercy and justice
00:14:12.08\00:14:17.29
both at the same time?
00:14:17.29\00:14:18.32
That's a dilemma I think
that we have to deal with.
00:14:18.32\00:14:21.09
>>DAVID: That's at
the heart of the question.
00:14:21.09\00:14:22.99
>>TY: It's a balancing act that
is, can I say it this way, it's
00:14:22.99\00:14:28.53
a balancing act that is
natural to God's character.
00:14:28.53\00:14:33.80
In other words, God is 100%
fully just and God is 100% fully
00:14:33.80\00:14:42.94
merciful and both of
those attributes, both of those
00:14:42.94\00:14:49.02
hemispheres of reality are
present in God simultaneously
00:14:49.02\00:14:54.32
all the time.
00:14:54.32\00:14:56.83
>>DAVID: They're not
playing against them.
00:14:56.83\00:14:57.93
>>TY: They're not
playing against one another.
00:14:57.93\00:14:59.13
There's a sense in which, as
you read scripture, you get the
00:14:59.13\00:15:02.30
sense that, in fact, they're one
and the same thing and that's
00:15:02.30\00:15:06.94
the composite word that
James used and that's love.
00:15:06.94\00:15:09.34
For example, we think of justice
as dealing out punishment
00:15:09.34\00:15:15.04
sometimes, but if you read the
word justice over and over again
00:15:15.04\00:15:18.01
in the Old Testament, God is
asking his people to exercise
00:15:18.01\00:15:21.15
justice by being
merciful to the poor.
00:15:21.15\00:15:25.02
He's saying, you've got the
oppressed and the widows and the
00:15:25.02\00:15:28.52
people who are in need, do
the right thing, be just by
00:15:28.52\00:15:33.43
extending compassion and mercy
and relieving their suffering.
00:15:33.43\00:15:37.90
So, in that sense
00:15:37.90\00:15:39.20
-- >>DAVID: Do justly, love
mercifully, walk humbly with
00:15:39.20\00:15:41.24
your God.
00:15:41.24\00:15:41.87
>>TY: So, mercy is justice.
00:15:41.87\00:15:43.27
Or, you could say it this way,
the right thing to do, the just
00:15:43.27\00:15:47.18
thing to do is to
forgive, to be merciful.
00:15:47.18\00:15:51.58
Simultaneously, if you flip it
around, the merciful thing to do
00:15:51.58\00:15:58.49
is to be just.
00:15:58.49\00:16:01.06
So, they're married in the
character of God, they are one
00:16:01.06\00:16:04.73
in the same thing manifesting
themselves for different needs
00:16:04.73\00:16:11.53
in situations.
00:16:11.53\00:16:13.07
So, I think we're getting at
the heart of the matter by the
00:16:13.07\00:16:17.71
justice and mercy thing.
00:16:17.71\00:16:19.24
>>JAMES: I'm jumping way ahead,
perhaps, but I'd just like to
00:16:19.24\00:16:23.01
center this in the cross and a
lot of times, when we talk about
00:16:23.01\00:16:25.91
the love of God and the
manifestation of that love, in
00:16:25.91\00:16:28.72
Jesus Christ, I like to ask
the question, when you look at
00:16:28.72\00:16:32.49
Calvary, what do you see?
00:16:32.49\00:16:34.86
Mercy or justice?
00:16:34.86\00:16:36.56
>>TY: Yes.
00:16:36.56\00:16:37.16
>>JAMES: Yes.
00:16:37.16\00:16:38.46
>>DAVID: Oh, I
said the same thing.
00:16:38.46\00:16:39.69
>>JAMES: And this is, I
think, what Ty is saying, and
00:16:39.69\00:16:42.83
inevitably, we look at the heart
of God, and we see the perfect
00:16:42.83\00:16:47.80
blending of both, and you see
this in the book of Revelation,
00:16:47.80\00:16:51.37
there's this picture in the book
of Revelation of the throne of
00:16:51.37\00:16:53.41
God and there's this rainbow,
this emerald rainbow, this green
00:16:53.41\00:16:57.28
rainbow above the throne.
00:16:57.28\00:16:58.35
>>DAVID: Does he say emerald?
00:16:58.35\00:16:59.75
>>JAMES: Well,
the color there is.
00:16:59.75\00:17:01.62
I think it's emerald.
00:17:01.62\00:17:02.45
>>DAVID: Oh, I
don't remember that.
00:17:02.45\00:17:03.82
>>JAMES: It doesn't say it in
the King James, but in other...
00:17:03.82\00:17:06.49
>>DAVID: No, I just, I'm not
questioning you, that's just a
00:17:06.49\00:17:09.16
beautiful picture came into
my mind and I hadn't heard that.
00:17:09.16\00:17:11.33
>>JAMES: And when we think of
a rainbow in our physical world,
00:17:11.33\00:17:15.03
when we look out in nature and
we look for a rainbow, there are
00:17:15.03\00:17:17.17
2 elements that are necessary
for a rainbow to be present.
00:17:17.17\00:17:20.77
The first element, of course,
is rain, most of the times, when
00:17:20.77\00:17:24.17
there's a blue sky and sunshine,
we're not even gonna think that
00:17:24.17\00:17:26.57
there's gonna be a rainbow
possibility, but the other
00:17:26.57\00:17:29.64
element that is necessary
for a rainbow is sunshine.
00:17:29.64\00:17:33.75
Have to have sunshine.
00:17:33.75\00:17:34.98
So, you have this rain coming
down and then, all of a sudden,
00:17:34.98\00:17:37.35
the clouds break, the sun
comes through, and then, you're
00:17:37.35\00:17:40.16
looking around, you're thinking,
there's gotta be a rainbow
00:17:40.16\00:17:42.29
around here somewhere, there's,
it's a combination of these two
00:17:42.29\00:17:44.49
elements that
seem to be opposite.
00:17:44.49\00:17:46.26
Usually, you'd have rain or
you'd have sunshine, but when
00:17:46.26\00:17:49.10
these two elements come together
and they blend perfectly, you
00:17:49.10\00:17:51.63
have this rainbow, and so, when
you look at the throne of God,
00:17:51.63\00:17:54.64
it says, it's established,
and this is so powerful to me,
00:17:54.64\00:17:57.84
because in Revelation 5, the
word uses set, the throne, I saw
00:17:57.84\00:18:01.34
a throne set in heaven.
00:18:01.34\00:18:03.85
And then, in Revelation 5, it
gives us a picture of the lamb
00:18:03.85\00:18:07.42
slain and next to the throne.
00:18:07.42\00:18:08.62
So, what I think is happening
here is we're seeing Calvary
00:18:08.62\00:18:12.55
establishing God's throne in our
lives and hearts, establishing
00:18:12.55\00:18:15.99
this picture of love that is
based on the perfect blend of
00:18:15.99\00:18:20.46
justice and mercy.
00:18:20.46\00:18:21.63
>>DAVID: I like
that rainbow analogy.
00:18:21.63\00:18:23.63
>>TY: Yeah.
00:18:23.63\00:18:24.80
>>DAVID: Where I lived in
Australia, on the southern part
00:18:24.80\00:18:26.50
of the Gold Coast, we get a
lot of those beautiful rainbows
00:18:26.50\00:18:28.67
because there'll be storms just
offshore and the sun will be
00:18:28.67\00:18:32.31
shining, you know, as the sun is
going down in the west, it will
00:18:32.31\00:18:36.21
just light up the sky.
00:18:36.21\00:18:37.51
I mean, we get the most
astonishing rainbows there,
00:18:37.51\00:18:39.78
because the rainbows
are out on the ocean.
00:18:39.78\00:18:41.08
It's something to see.
00:18:41.08\00:18:43.82
>>TY: So far, we've articulated
the question and we've begun to
00:18:43.82\00:18:48.79
inch into what the answer might
be regarding the forgiveness of
00:18:48.79\00:18:56.56
God and whether or not the death
of Jesus was necessary for it or
00:18:56.56\00:19:02.84
it, the forgiveness,
was manifested in his death.
00:19:02.84\00:19:07.18
We have to take a break, but we
just need to be thinking, this
00:19:07.18\00:19:12.05
is the thing that we'll be
exploring for all eternity, so
00:19:12.05\00:19:15.52
we couldn't possibly exhaust it,
but I think we could give some
00:19:15.52\00:19:20.26
scripture, we could wrap some
biblical language around this
00:19:20.26\00:19:23.76
idea.
00:19:23.76\00:19:24.56
So, we'll do
that after the break.
00:19:24.56\00:19:27.23
truck which drove in from Durban
where a ship was docked that
00:19:27.46\00:19:28.13
digma.com.
00:19:28.36\00:19:31.10
I am so excited about this
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00:19:31.10\00:19:34.57
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00:19:34.57\00:19:39.07
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friends, and anybody else on the
00:19:39.07\00:19:42.58
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access to a computer.
00:19:42.58\00:19:45.98
Digma is a Greek word.
00:19:45.98\00:19:47.72
It basically means, to show or
to reveal something by means of
00:19:47.72\00:19:51.65
a pattern or an
example of some kind.
00:19:51.65\00:19:54.16
It's the second half of the word
paradigma, from which we get the
00:19:54.16\00:19:58.09
English word
paradigm, as in paradigm shift.
00:19:58.09\00:20:02.16
And so, what you're going to
find at digma.com is a growing
00:20:02.16\00:20:05.57
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00:20:05.57\00:20:08.94
paradigms and
fundamental questions.
00:20:08.94\00:20:11.91
What's the meaning of life?
00:20:11.91\00:20:14.01
What is our origin and
destiny as human beings?
00:20:14.01\00:20:17.88
What happens when we die?
00:20:17.88\00:20:20.12
Does God exist or are we
alone in this vast universe?
00:20:20.12\00:20:24.39
Why is there so much evil
and suffering in our world?
00:20:24.39\00:20:28.86
An estimated 70% of Americans
have a computer right in their
00:20:28.86\00:20:33.70
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00:20:33.70\00:20:37.80
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00:20:37.80\00:20:43.14
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00:20:43.14\00:20:47.08
We are literally in the midst of
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00:20:47.08\00:20:51.91
massive proportion.
00:20:51.91\00:20:53.88
This is granting the
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00:20:53.88\00:20:58.49
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00:20:58.49\00:21:04.16
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00:21:04.16\00:21:06.73
It's a tool for leading
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00:21:06.73\00:21:10.20
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00:21:10.20\00:21:14.40
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incredibly beautiful character
00:21:14.40\00:21:18.57
in contrast to our world's
popular misconceptions about who
00:21:18.57\00:21:24.45
God is.
00:21:24.45\00:21:26.31
[Music]
00:21:26.31\00:21:34.09
>>TY: So, we've set up the
question quite nicely, I think,
00:21:34.09\00:21:37.89
and we all kinda feel
how serious the question is.
00:21:37.89\00:21:41.83
You can't help but wonder, is
God a certain way and because he
00:21:41.83\00:21:48.00
is the way he is,
then he does what he does?
00:21:48.00\00:21:54.58
Or, does God do what he
does because he's prompted by
00:21:54.58\00:22:02.62
something that was done to
make him otherwise what he was?
00:22:02.62\00:22:06.32
>>JAMES: That's
what Jeffrey was saying.
00:22:06.32\00:22:07.76
I thought
that's a good question.
00:22:07.76\00:22:08.99
>>TY: Now, the first scripture,
this is a very common scripture
00:22:08.99\00:22:11.69
that almost anybody who's had
familiarity with the bible has
00:22:11.69\00:22:15.43
read, for God so loved the world
that he gave his only begotten
00:22:15.43\00:22:20.77
son that whoever believes in
him should not perish but have
00:22:20.77\00:22:23.71
everlasting life.
00:22:23.71\00:22:25.04
That's John 3:16, then verse
17, for God did not send his son
00:22:25.04\00:22:30.51
into the world to condemn
the world, but that the world
00:22:30.51\00:22:33.31
through him might be saved.
00:22:33.31\00:22:34.95
Then the scripture, very
interestingly, goes on to say
00:22:34.95\00:22:39.55
that condemnation is already in
the world, in other words, we're
00:22:39.55\00:22:44.23
already under condemnation and
Jesus has come for the express
00:22:44.23\00:22:50.03
purpose of giving the light of
God's noncondemnatory love for
00:22:50.03\00:22:57.07
us to respond to, so according
to this scripture, it sure looks
00:22:57.07\00:23:00.48
to me like God is
the way he is, i.e.
00:23:00.48\00:23:04.41
God is love, and out of that
love, God says, I'm going to
00:23:04.41\00:23:09.05
give, I'm going to give my son
to die and when I give him, when
00:23:09.05\00:23:14.59
I send Jesus into the world
and the sacrifice is made, what
00:23:14.59\00:23:19.09
people are going to encounter
in him is an absence of
00:23:19.09\00:23:23.20
condemnation.
00:23:23.20\00:23:24.17
Because they're
already under condemnation.
00:23:24.17\00:23:26.47
Condemnation is natural to
the sin problem that is already
00:23:26.47\00:23:30.97
weighing upon their hearts and
their minds, and Jesus comes to
00:23:30.97\00:23:34.48
lift that condemnation by the
revelation of his love and the
00:23:34.48\00:23:39.21
Father's love in the
sacrifice that's made.
00:23:39.21\00:23:42.18
>>JAMES: Okay, Jeffrey's
going next, then I got the next
00:23:42.18\00:23:44.82
ticket.
00:23:44.82\00:23:46.05
We need a little ticket machine
here, you know, where you pull
00:23:46.05\00:23:47.32
it.
00:23:47.32\00:23:47.86
>>DAVID: Like the DMV.
00:23:47.86\00:23:48.79
>>JAMES: Yeah, just
hand out these blocks.
00:23:48.79\00:23:50.49
>>JEFFREY: To go back on this
whole nature of sin, because I
00:23:50.49\00:23:54.30
think that we're kinda skirting
around the question, but we have
00:23:54.30\00:23:56.50
to face, we have to identify
our terms, define our terms.
00:23:56.50\00:24:00.37
Back in Genesis chapter 2 and 3,
the death concept is introduced
00:24:00.37\00:24:06.21
as the result of sin, right?
00:24:06.21\00:24:08.01
So, if God is forgiving,
why did Jesus have to die?
00:24:08.01\00:24:12.25
Right?
00:24:12.25\00:24:13.48
So, there's death, but I think
if we explore the foundation of
00:24:13.48\00:24:17.02
that whole concept, why did
Jesus have to die in order to
00:24:17.02\00:24:21.59
extend forgiveness to sin?
00:24:21.59\00:24:23.09
It's because, I mean, at
least, one step towards this, is
00:24:23.09\00:24:27.30
Genesis 2:17, that's the
original, the original warning
00:24:27.30\00:24:32.80
here, in the day that you
eat of it, you shall surely die.
00:24:32.80\00:24:36.74
That's where the whole concept
of death is introduced, right?
00:24:36.74\00:24:39.31
So, sin comes into the
race and sin leads to death.
00:24:39.31\00:24:42.94
But the interesting thing in
chapter 3, and this goes more to
00:24:42.94\00:24:47.48
the psychology of sin, is lies
were introduced to Adam and Eve
00:24:47.48\00:24:53.36
that caused them to
question God, to question God's
00:24:53.36\00:24:57.63
character, to
question God's motive.
00:24:57.63\00:25:00.86
Yeah, love, motive, mercy,
justice, blah, blah, blah.
00:25:00.86\00:25:05.20
And in that questioning process
is where they were led to sever
00:25:05.20\00:25:10.57
themselves from God and because
of that separation, they were
00:25:10.57\00:25:15.14
susceptible to death.
00:25:15.14\00:25:17.01
So, the nature of sin, as it's
couched in Genesis chapter 3, is
00:25:17.01\00:25:21.22
it's a
separation from God, right?
00:25:21.22\00:25:25.09
So, God is the source of life.
00:25:25.09\00:25:28.12
When people sever their
connection from God, they're
00:25:28.12\00:25:30.06
now, they're now
susceptible to death.
00:25:30.06\00:25:32.46
So, I think, at least in
my mind, that takes me a step
00:25:32.46\00:25:37.17
towards the answer to that
question, why did Jesus have to
00:25:37.17\00:25:39.17
die?
00:25:39.17\00:25:40.40
Because what he's dealing with
is sin and the nature of sin is
00:25:40.40\00:25:43.14
separation from
God, the source of life.
00:25:43.14\00:25:45.64
So, Jesus had to die because in
order to deal with the problem
00:25:45.64\00:25:50.48
death had to take place.
00:25:50.48\00:25:52.45
>>TY: Okay.
00:25:52.45\00:25:53.31
[Inaudible chatter]
00:25:53.31\00:25:59.95
>>TY: I won't forget the
question because it's a serious
00:25:59.95\00:26:02.92
one in relation to what he said.
00:26:02.92\00:26:04.16
>>JAMES: Romans 6:23 says, for
the wages of sin is death, but
00:26:04.16\00:26:07.96
the gift of God is eternal
life with Jesus Christ our Lord.
00:26:07.96\00:26:10.90
So, I wanna affirm what Jeffrey
said, the wages of sin is death.
00:26:10.90\00:26:14.80
But I wanna go back to what
Ty said because what Jeffrey,
00:26:14.80\00:26:17.64
another point Jeffrey made that
I think is really significant is
00:26:17.64\00:26:20.48
this, there was a
misrepresentation of God in the
00:26:20.48\00:26:23.81
garden of Eden, and that
misrepresentation of God clouded
00:26:23.81\00:26:28.88
God in such a darkness that
there had to be a revelation of
00:26:28.88\00:26:35.46
who he really is.
00:26:35.46\00:26:36.66
And so, when we get to John
3:16, we have that revelation,
00:26:36.66\00:26:39.06
and here's the revelation, God
so loved the world that he gave.
00:26:39.06\00:26:43.50
God did not, does not love the
world, Jesus did not allow for
00:26:43.50\00:26:49.57
the Father to love the world,
God doesn't love the world
00:26:49.57\00:26:52.47
because Jesus died for us,
God already loved the world, and
00:26:52.47\00:26:56.88
that's why he gave
his son to die for us.
00:26:56.88\00:26:59.85
And to me, that verse unlocks
the whole key to this mystery.
00:26:59.85\00:27:04.92
So, when we look at why, we've
gotta couch it in the context,
00:27:04.92\00:27:09.26
it's not because Jesus had to
somehow persuade or convince the
00:27:09.26\00:27:13.60
Father to love us, for us, no.
00:27:13.60\00:27:16.63
The Father's love
was already there.
00:27:16.63\00:27:17.80
it was there, and that unlocks,
I mean, it just clouds, it
00:27:17.80\00:27:22.67
quiets, it destroys, decimates.
00:27:22.67\00:27:28.54
>>DAVID: Just go with decimate.
00:27:28.54\00:27:30.91
When it doubt,
we'll go to decimate.
00:27:30.91\00:27:32.48
>>JAMES: It decimates
this misapprehension and
00:27:32.48\00:27:35.08
misrepresentation of
God and his character.
00:27:35.08\00:27:37.22
>>TY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:37.22\00:27:38.49
Where I was gonna go, oh.
00:27:38.49\00:27:40.49
>>DAVID: He had to
thumb wrestle for it.
00:27:40.49\00:27:44.09
>>TY: Go.
00:27:44.09\00:27:44.63
>>DAVID: Are you sure?
00:27:44.63\00:27:45.13
>>TY: Yeah.
00:27:45.13\00:27:46.29
>>DAVID: I love what you're
saying there, James, I just
00:27:46.29\00:27:47.66
wanna pick up the track that
Jeffrey had about, I think I'm
00:27:47.66\00:27:50.07
with Jeffrey 100% here when
he says that the way that we
00:27:50.07\00:27:55.30
discern why Jesus
had to die, right?
00:27:55.30\00:27:59.37
I'm assuming now that this is a
necessity, not just a novelty or
00:27:59.37\00:28:02.48
a nicety, it's a necessity,
is because of the nature of sin.
00:28:02.48\00:28:07.32
Sin is separation from God,
and the illustration, all I was
00:28:07.32\00:28:10.59
gonna say, it's very simple, is
this, sin is not spilled milk.
00:28:10.59\00:28:13.32
If I were to spill some water
on this table right now, we
00:28:13.32\00:28:17.39
wouldn't need to, okay, bring
the bulldozer in, beep, beep,
00:28:17.39\00:28:21.20
beep, you know, it wouldn't have
to, none of that, we'd wipe it
00:28:21.20\00:28:24.37
up.
00:28:24.37\00:28:25.23
It's a small
problem, small solution.
00:28:25.23\00:28:27.34
Right, because the nature of the
thing is such that there's just
00:28:27.34\00:28:30.44
a facile, simple, quick, and all
is done in dust, so we continue
00:28:30.44\00:28:33.84
on.
00:28:33.84\00:28:34.94
Okay, so God comes down
into the garden and Ty asked the
00:28:34.94\00:28:37.41
question, why didn't he just
say, okay, sorry about that, or
00:28:37.41\00:28:40.35
you know, you guys are sorry,
I forgive you, let's move on.
00:28:40.35\00:28:43.18
Because we're not dealing
with, we're dealing with a
00:28:43.18\00:28:46.96
radioactive, nuclear meltdown.
00:28:46.96\00:28:50.29
Something has been released into
the universe that is at absolute
00:28:50.29\00:28:56.23
polar odds with the nature,
character, government, goodness
00:28:56.23\00:29:01.80
of God.
00:29:01.80\00:29:03.00
And I can just imagine, just
allow me to just do this little
00:29:03.00\00:29:06.41
anthropomorphism,
personification here.
00:29:06.41\00:29:08.74
God is saying, oh, no.
00:29:08.74\00:29:14.05
This is a thing.
00:29:14.05\00:29:16.42
This is a thing.
00:29:16.42\00:29:17.45
This is a thing.
00:29:17.45\00:29:20.66
The angels don't understand
the nature of the thing.
00:29:20.66\00:29:22.49
Oh, no, no, no.
00:29:22.49\00:29:23.66
Adam and Eve certainly don't
understand, because, and you
00:29:23.66\00:29:25.09
know that because they're like,
okay, oh, yeah, hand me some of
00:29:25.09\00:29:27.60
those leaves, oh,
that'll look nice, you know.
00:29:27.60\00:29:29.93
They're down like, they know
that there's a problem, but they
00:29:29.93\00:29:32.80
think the problem
will just, this is a spill.
00:29:32.80\00:29:35.54
No, we'll wipe this up, we'll
put some stuff on, it'll all be
00:29:35.54\00:29:37.14
good.
00:29:37.14\00:29:38.34
And God comes down and says,
you know what, you are gonna get
00:29:38.34\00:29:41.11
clothed because there is a
nakedness, there is a shame, but
00:29:41.11\00:29:46.08
let me show you what
that's going to involve.
00:29:46.08\00:29:47.92
Genesis 3:21, he
makes them tunics of skins.
00:29:47.92\00:29:51.79
>>JEFFREY: Death.
00:29:51.79\00:29:52.92
>>DAVID: There's death.
00:29:52.92\00:29:54.89
The last thing I wanna say on
this is that the nature of the
00:29:54.89\00:29:58.99
sin thing is this, watch this,
God didn't say in Genesis 2:17,
00:29:58.99\00:30:03.43
in the day you eat of
that tree, I'm gonna kill you.
00:30:03.43\00:30:06.77
This is not something external
that God is imposing on the
00:30:06.77\00:30:10.61
situation.
00:30:10.61\00:30:11.77
He said, in the day you eat
of that you will surely die.
00:30:11.77\00:30:17.98
And there's the difference.
00:30:17.98\00:30:19.68
There's the difference.
00:30:19.68\00:30:20.48
This is not an
external imposition.
00:30:20.48\00:30:22.15
The nature of that thing,
that's a radioactive leak.
00:30:22.15\00:30:25.85
It's a hand grenade that's been
thrown into the universe, and
00:30:25.85\00:30:28.52
God is gonna throw himself onto
the hand grenade in order to
00:30:28.52\00:30:32.13
preserve the lives of
those who will be radioactively
00:30:32.13\00:30:35.70
contaminated.
00:30:35.70\00:30:36.83
>>TY: And the scripture
that James read in Romans 6:23
00:30:36.83\00:30:40.37
parallels Genesis 2:17 and says
the wages of sin is death, but
00:30:40.37\00:30:45.51
the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ, our Lord.
00:30:45.51\00:30:48.71
Notice that, again, that
the wages of sin is death.
00:30:48.71\00:30:56.25
>>DAVID:
Exactly, that's the point.
00:30:56.25\00:30:57.49
>>TY: Sin itself is the lethal
force that is in play there and
00:30:57.49\00:31:03.02
then, notice the grammar
that eternal life is from God.
00:31:03.02\00:31:07.23
>>JAMES: It's a gift from God.
00:31:07.23\00:31:07.86
>>TY: It's a gift from God.
00:31:07.86\00:31:09.20
So, again, we're dealing
here with the nature of the
00:31:09.20\00:31:13.40
situation, not artificially
constructed situations.
00:31:13.40\00:31:19.64
>>DAVID: It would be something,
okay, let me go back to my
00:31:19.64\00:31:22.98
analogy, maybe this will
be crude, maybe it won't be
00:31:22.98\00:31:24.78
helpful, but the
analogy of spilled milk.
00:31:24.78\00:31:26.08
It's not as though God came into
the garden, there's a little
00:31:26.08\00:31:28.32
spilled milk and he says, oh,
no, there's spilled milk, I'll
00:31:28.32\00:31:31.79
go handle it, you know, as it
were, grabs a knife or whatever
00:31:31.79\00:31:35.39
and, you know, ends his own
life or ends somebody else's.
00:31:35.39\00:31:38.19
It's like, whoa, what is,
that's quite the overreaction.
00:31:38.19\00:31:41.40
That's a little much,
that's overly dramatic.
00:31:41.40\00:31:45.30
God is not creating a dramatic
situation in order to elicit our
00:31:45.30\00:31:49.87
sympathy.
00:31:49.87\00:31:51.11
Our sympathies and our love and
adoration and worship will be
00:31:51.11\00:31:54.11
elicited, but not because of
some artificial situation that
00:31:54.11\00:31:56.95
God has created.
00:31:56.95\00:31:57.71
No, no, no, oh, man.
00:31:57.71\00:31:59.68
I would say it this way, there
was no other way that man could
00:31:59.68\00:32:04.92
be saved.
00:32:04.92\00:32:06.29
There was no other way.
00:32:06.29\00:32:09.19
I can show you that
in the text of scripture.
00:32:09.19\00:32:10.63
>>JEFFREY: If there were, David,
God would surely have chosen
00:32:10.63\00:32:13.03
that way.
00:32:13.03\00:32:14.23
>>DAVID: Okay, let me bring you,
let me show you the text that
00:32:14.23\00:32:15.66
says that, look at this.
00:32:15.66\00:32:16.60
Galatians.
00:32:16.60\00:32:17.57
Let me show you where
Paul says exactly that.
00:32:17.57\00:32:21.17
Galatians chapter 2, the very
thing that you just said, that
00:32:21.17\00:32:24.07
you and I were saying together
there, Jeffrey, and look at what
00:32:24.07\00:32:25.97
he says here, in Galatians
chapter 2, he says, in verse,
00:32:25.97\00:32:34.52
it's gonna take me just a second
here, I was looking, that's not
00:32:34.52\00:32:37.15
it, where he says, for if
it would've been possible for
00:32:37.15\00:32:41.19
righteousness to come, verily
righteousness would've come by
00:32:41.19\00:32:43.86
the law, but God is, you know
the text I'm looking for here.
00:32:43.86\00:32:48.36
Where's that text at?
00:32:48.36\00:32:49.93
>>JAMES: Verse 21, last
one, last one, verse 21.
00:32:49.93\00:32:52.60
>>DAVID: Of Galatians 3.
00:32:52.60\00:32:54.77
>>JAMES: Yeah.
00:32:54.77\00:32:55.97
>>DAVID: Oh, yeah, thank you,
I was looking in Galatians 2.
00:32:55.97\00:32:58.01
Galatians 3:21.
00:32:58.01\00:32:59.84
He says, is the law then
against the promises of God?
00:32:59.84\00:33:03.35
Certainly not.
00:33:03.35\00:33:04.55
Is the law, is the Old Testament
against the promise that God
00:33:04.55\00:33:07.32
made to Abraham.
00:33:07.32\00:33:08.55
Now, we're not gonna dig into
the context, we don't need to
00:33:08.55\00:33:09.72
dig too deep into the context,
because look at the point.
00:33:09.72\00:33:11.05
Certainly not.
00:33:11.05\00:33:12.42
For if there would've been a law
given, if God could've given a
00:33:12.42\00:33:17.23
law whereby he could've given
us life, truly, righteousness
00:33:17.23\00:33:23.77
would've been by the law.
00:33:23.77\00:33:25.00
And then, look at the first word
of verse 22, what's the first
00:33:25.00\00:33:26.87
word of verse 22?
00:33:26.87\00:33:27.74
But.
00:33:27.74\00:33:29.67
In other words, he's saying, if
God could've saved you by your
00:33:29.67\00:33:33.11
obedience, if God could've saved
you by your fig leaves, by your
00:33:33.11\00:33:36.48
coverings, he would've done so.
00:33:36.48\00:33:39.48
But, and look at what it
says, but scripture has placed
00:33:39.48\00:33:43.35
everyone under sin so that the
promise by faith in Jesus Christ
00:33:43.35\00:33:47.16
might be given to
those who believe.
00:33:47.16\00:33:48.59
Believe in what?
00:33:48.59\00:33:49.56
Believe in the
solution that God would provide.
00:33:49.56\00:33:53.03
And this is not an artificial
or arbitrary solution.
00:33:53.03\00:33:55.10
This is God in Christ doing
for man what Paul is saying man
00:33:55.10\00:34:00.44
couldn't, it's impossible.
00:34:00.44\00:34:01.94
>>JEFFREY: The
same thing Hebrews 9:22.
00:34:01.94\00:34:03.67
>>DAVID: I was
just gonna go there.
00:34:03.67\00:34:05.31
>>JEFFREY: Without the shedding
of blood, there is no remission.
00:34:05.31\00:34:08.28
>>DAVID: It's not possible that
the blood of bulls and goats
00:34:08.28\00:34:11.15
should take away sin,
that's just a few verses later.
00:34:11.15\00:34:12.78
Hebrews 10.
00:34:12.78\00:34:13.45
It's not possible.
00:34:13.45\00:34:14.62
>>TY: Let me just push
this a step further and ask this
00:34:14.62\00:34:16.42
question, help me
understand this, then, so, we've
00:34:16.42\00:34:20.32
established the death of
Jesus Christ was absolutely
00:34:20.32\00:34:23.66
imperative, necessary,
right, for our salvation.
00:34:23.66\00:34:26.93
>>JEFFREY: Because
of the nature of sin.
00:34:26.93\00:34:28.60
>>TY: And we've established
that it was necessary as the
00:34:28.60\00:34:35.14
extension of and revelation
of love and forgiveness that is
00:34:35.14\00:34:39.57
already in the character of God.
00:34:39.57\00:34:42.91
God is forgiving in his nature.
00:34:42.91\00:34:45.78
So, then, why the need
for suffering and death?
00:34:45.78\00:34:50.42
Why the need for suffering,
in Christ, why the need for, I
00:34:50.42\00:34:57.66
mean, look at the
cross, it's a bloody affair.
00:34:57.66\00:35:00.23
>>DAVID: And I got
an answer here that's
00:35:00.23\00:35:02.03
-- >>TY: Nails driven through
the hands, I mean, he's whipped,
00:35:02.03\00:35:04.57
he's beaten, he's hanging
there, tortured, and then he
00:35:04.57\00:35:09.60
experiences the greater
excruciating pain of separation
00:35:09.60\00:35:13.84
from the Father and he
experiences, according to the
00:35:13.84\00:35:18.68
descriptions of his
psychological experience in
00:35:18.68\00:35:21.95
Matthew 26 that he's
experiencing the weight of guilt
00:35:21.95\00:35:25.99
and shame that
isn't natural to him.
00:35:25.99\00:35:28.22
He's not himself guilty,
he's not filled with shame.
00:35:28.22\00:35:31.09
So, why suffering and death?
00:35:31.09\00:35:33.70
>>DAVID: Can I
give an answer here?
00:35:33.70\00:35:34.86
This is, okay, shoot me down
here if I get this wrong, I'm
00:35:34.86\00:35:38.97
totally willing to be corrected,
but I am of the mind that the
00:35:38.97\00:35:43.87
plan of salvation, our ability
to be forgiven, our need of
00:35:43.87\00:35:49.38
being forgiven and that which
enables that did not require the
00:35:49.38\00:35:53.38
crucifixion of Jesus.
00:35:53.38\00:35:57.22
>>JEFFREY: What do you mean?
00:35:57.22\00:35:58.15
>>DAVID: It did
require the death of Jesus.
00:35:58.15\00:36:01.69
>>JEFFREY: The mode
or the manner of death.
00:36:01.69\00:36:03.53
>>DAVID: Now, here's why I
say that, go to the sanctuary
00:36:03.53\00:36:06.46
service, you go to the sanctuary
service, the lamb is brought to
00:36:06.46\00:36:09.36
the court.
00:36:09.36\00:36:10.47
The lamb is brought to the,
what do they do to that lamb?
00:36:10.47\00:36:12.57
Did they sling it around by
its, and pound it a little bit,
00:36:12.57\00:36:16.04
torture it, torment it, tease
it, bother it for an, take away
00:36:16.04\00:36:21.14
its water, take away its food
for a period of time, torture it
00:36:21.14\00:36:25.18
and then let it die a death out
in the elements of asphyxiation
00:36:25.18\00:36:29.95
and, no.
00:36:29.95\00:36:30.99
It was humanely killed.
00:36:30.99\00:36:34.22
What if the Jews, the religious,
I'm not asking, I'm saying, what
00:36:34.22\00:36:39.66
if the religious leaders
of the day had received Jesus?
00:36:39.66\00:36:44.40
This is our Messiah.
00:36:44.40\00:36:46.13
He's the one.
00:36:46.13\00:36:46.97
>>JAMES: Christ
still would've died.
00:36:46.97\00:36:48.20
>>DAVID: Of course he would've
still died because the wages of
00:36:48.20\00:36:50.34
sin is death, but would
they have had to do all of that?
00:36:50.34\00:36:53.27
All of that, my thinking has
been, and again, shoot back at
00:36:53.27\00:36:57.21
me, push back if I'm wrong here,
that Satan is pushing, pushing,
00:36:57.21\00:37:01.32
pushing buttons, he is
overplaying his hand, oh, I'll
00:37:01.32\00:37:04.92
take away food, oh,
I'll, oh, the king of the Jews.
00:37:04.92\00:37:07.89
Oh, here's our rope, he's
pushing, thinking, is he gonna
00:37:07.89\00:37:10.36
break?
00:37:10.36\00:37:10.99
>>JAMES: He's desperate.
00:37:10.99\00:37:12.19
>>DAVID: And Jesus just calmly,
he's dignified, he's taken.
00:37:12.19\00:37:14.60
All of this is gonna
redown to the glory of God.
00:37:14.60\00:37:16.53
All of this is going to make
the gospel more powerful, more
00:37:16.53\00:37:21.00
beautiful, but God is not in
heaven saying, oh, yeah, I love
00:37:21.00\00:37:23.87
that part.
00:37:23.87\00:37:25.07
I love it where they punch
him in the face, I love it where
00:37:25.07\00:37:26.37
they pull the beard out.
00:37:26.37\00:37:27.51
No.
00:37:27.51\00:37:28.28
I don't know,
that's my thinking.
00:37:28.28\00:37:30.08
>>JEFFREY: I was thinking
something totally different.
00:37:30.08\00:37:32.41
>>DAVID: You get that?
00:37:32.41\00:37:33.45
>>JAMES: Yes, absolutely.
00:37:33.45\00:37:34.62
Satan is trying to break
him, he's trying to break him.
00:37:34.62\00:37:36.52
>>TY: But, go ahead.
00:37:36.52\00:37:39.12
>>JEFFREY: I was just gonna say,
I was thinking there might be a
00:37:39.12\00:37:41.46
sense in which sin causes
not merely death, but it causes
00:37:41.46\00:37:45.79
pain, suffering, and misery,
and the fact that Jesus was
00:37:45.79\00:37:49.70
subjected to that, through that
process, just simply symbolizes
00:37:49.70\00:37:54.20
that he embodied not only the
death that sin brings, but the
00:37:54.20\00:37:58.24
pain, the suffering that it also
entails, the effects of sin.
00:37:58.24\00:38:03.04
>>DAVID: Can I just push
back on that a little bit?
00:38:03.04\00:38:03.88
Here's my response to that.
00:38:03.88\00:38:05.41
There are so many passages
in the whole of scripture in the
00:38:05.41\00:38:09.05
gospels in which Jesus is
clearly under pain, the pain of
00:38:09.05\00:38:12.99
unbelief, the pain of people not
accepting him, the pain of the
00:38:12.99\00:38:16.26
emotional duress, being
surrounded by, I mean, think of
00:38:16.26\00:38:19.29
this, this, from the highest,
most glorious, beautiful heaven,
00:38:19.29\00:38:22.10
he comes down here and there's
a woman that, through some
00:38:22.10\00:38:24.83
scandalous, you know, situation,
thrown at his feet, and these
00:38:24.83\00:38:28.60
are the religious leaders,
he was in a continual state of
00:38:28.60\00:38:31.24
torturous pain of sin, in other
words, I agree with that, but I
00:38:31.24\00:38:37.18
think that happens.
00:38:37.18\00:38:38.61
>>JEFFREY: But I hear what
you're saying, I don't think we
00:38:38.61\00:38:40.55
as human beings had the
capacity, nor the people in this
00:38:40.55\00:38:43.62
day, to process everything
you've just said, therefore, he
00:38:43.62\00:38:47.12
subjected to the
obvious physical ramifications.
00:38:47.12\00:38:51.79
You're talking about inward,
none of the disciples were privy
00:38:51.79\00:38:54.40
to that, they were all clueless.
00:38:54.40\00:38:55.73
>>DAVID: In the wilderness.
00:38:55.73\00:38:56.93
>>JEFFREY: Oh, yeah, the hungry
in the wilderness, but even
00:38:56.93\00:38:59.30
then, I would still say, you
read Matthew 27, that process
00:38:59.30\00:39:02.87
there, to me
00:39:02.87\00:39:04.04
-- >>DAVID: Well, Matthew
27 would've still happened, or
00:39:04.04\00:39:05.94
Matthew 26
would've still happened.
00:39:05.94\00:39:07.78
>>JEFFREY: No, I'm referring to
what you're talking about, the
00:39:07.78\00:39:09.91
physical beatings that Jesus
was subjected to, to me, that
00:39:09.91\00:39:14.68
embodies the fact that sin
is not merely a quick, like you
00:39:14.68\00:39:18.25
say, humane death, it's
dirty, it's nasty, it's painful.
00:39:18.25\00:39:23.12
>>DAVID: And I agree with that,
and the plan of salvation is all
00:39:23.12\00:39:25.56
the more amazing and beautiful
and God's character was shown
00:39:25.56\00:39:28.96
through that.
00:39:28.96\00:39:30.20
But the sanctuary service does
not communicate that that was
00:39:30.20\00:39:34.04
required.
00:39:34.04\00:39:35.07
I don't know.
00:39:35.07\00:39:36.24
>>JAMES: The thing that is
significant about what you're
00:39:36.24\00:39:39.24
saying, David, is that it's
revealing that God's salvation
00:39:39.24\00:39:43.35
plan, the purpose for God
to save us didn't require those
00:39:43.35\00:39:47.78
things that he knew were
gonna happen, he predicted it in
00:39:47.78\00:39:50.39
Isaiah 53.
00:39:50.39\00:39:51.35
But we don't have to
put that on God's shoulders.
00:39:51.35\00:39:53.56
God is clear of that, even
though it is gonna happen and
00:39:53.56\00:39:58.59
God knows it's gonna happen.
00:39:58.59\00:39:59.79
>>DAVID: And remember, Peter
stands up in, what is it, Acts 2
00:39:59.79\00:40:01.83
or Acts 1, where he says, is
it Acts 2 or 1 where he says,
00:40:01.83\00:40:04.37
delivered by the determined.
00:40:04.37\00:40:06.67
>>TY: Two.
00:40:06.67\00:40:07.20
>>DAVID: Acts 2.
00:40:07.20\00:40:07.97
Foreknowledge
and counsel of God.
00:40:07.97\00:40:10.97
In other words, they're sitting
around saying, how does the
00:40:10.97\00:40:13.07
Messiah end up
on a Roman crucifix?
00:40:13.07\00:40:14.94
A Messiah, a deliverer?
00:40:14.94\00:40:16.88
How does that happen?
00:40:16.88\00:40:18.01
And he's like, hey,
God knew this was coming.
00:40:18.01\00:40:19.65
He's thinking Isaiah 53,
he's thinking suffering servant.
00:40:19.65\00:40:23.69
Absolutely.
00:40:23.69\00:40:25.22
No question, but how was that
lamb, go back to the garden of
00:40:25.22\00:40:28.59
Eden, when the skins were made,
how was that lamb dispatched.
00:40:28.59\00:40:33.16
Well, it was, God didn't say
to Satan, hey, come in here and
00:40:33.16\00:40:37.90
come take care of this lamb,
because he would've had his way.
00:40:37.90\00:40:40.04
You know, I'm just using
an imaginative situation here.
00:40:40.04\00:40:42.04
That lamb would've
been humanely dispatched.
00:40:42.04\00:40:44.07
>>JEFFREY: Of course.
00:40:44.07\00:40:45.31
>>TY: We have to take a break
and then come back and I just, I
00:40:45.31\00:40:49.04
think this is
just very eye opening.
00:40:49.04\00:40:50.85
It's extremely helpful for me
to think about it in these terms
00:40:50.85\00:40:55.78
and I think that, as I'm
processing what I've heard you
00:40:55.78\00:41:00.06
guys saying, there are obvious
implications to what you're
00:41:00.06\00:41:06.19
saying, so we'll
explore that when we come back.
00:41:06.19\00:41:09.66
segment though that we can delve
into this further, but this is
00:41:09.66\00:41:10.37
ort, engaging messages
00:41:10.77\00:41:12.97
designed for opening up
discussion with individuals and
00:41:12.97\00:41:15.90
groups regarding the character
of God as well as for your own
00:41:15.90\00:41:19.64
personal spiritual growth.
00:41:19.64\00:41:21.34
For your free DVD sample
collection of Digma videos, call
00:41:21.34\00:41:24.91
877-585-1111, or write to Light
Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell
00:41:24.91\00:41:32.35
Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438.
00:41:32.35\00:41:35.76
Once again, for your free
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00:41:35.76\00:41:39.69
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00:41:39.69\00:41:47.70
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00:41:47.70\00:41:52.07
Simply ask for Digma DVD 2.
00:41:52.07\00:41:54.74
Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438.
00:41:55.21\00:41:55.24
>>TY: I think this is, for sure,
maybe the hardest question, the
00:41:56.41\00:41:59.35
biggest question, this is a
subject we're gonna be probing
00:41:59.35\00:42:03.35
for all eternity.
00:42:03.35\00:42:04.69
I can hardly wrap my mind around
it, but I wanna call to our
00:42:04.69\00:42:08.29
attention some additional,
biblical scripture, some
00:42:08.29\00:42:12.96
biblical insight that
might fill out the picture.
00:42:12.96\00:42:15.76
First of all, in Acts chapter
2 and verse 23, there is the
00:42:15.76\00:42:22.40
juxtaposition of two ideas.
00:42:22.40\00:42:26.17
>>DAVID: I'm sorry, I was
distracted there, in Acts...
00:42:26.17\00:42:28.11
>>TY: In Acts chapter 2, verse
23, we have two ideas that are
00:42:28.11\00:42:31.51
running parallel
and intersecting, okay.
00:42:31.51\00:42:33.15
And what the two ideas are, just
see if this makes sense, the
00:42:33.15\00:42:38.65
action of God at Calvary is
described and it says that God
00:42:38.65\00:42:43.36
delivered Christ up.
00:42:43.36\00:42:46.39
He delivered him to them.
00:42:46.39\00:42:49.20
Notice, then it describes
the action of the human beings.
00:42:49.20\00:42:53.77
It says that they took him.
00:42:53.77\00:42:55.30
>>DAVID: What verse are you in?
00:42:55.30\00:42:55.90
>>TY: Verse 23, Acts 2:23.
00:42:55.90\00:42:58.64
God delivered him up,
but lawless hands took him.
00:42:58.64\00:43:03.38
So, God's part in the situation
is described, it's basically
00:43:03.38\00:43:10.89
giving Jesus over to sinners
and those who actually crucified
00:43:10.89\00:43:19.63
him, according to
this text, are the sinners.
00:43:19.63\00:43:24.43
Now, the reason this is
important to my thinking is
00:43:24.43\00:43:28.70
because in 1 Peter chapter
2, verses 21-25, there is this
00:43:28.70\00:43:35.08
fascinating description of
the cross that Peter gives to us
00:43:35.08\00:43:39.18
that I think is very
rarely explored, at least in
00:43:39.18\00:43:43.92
theological discussions I've
been a part of, rarely discussed
00:43:43.92\00:43:49.12
and that is that in Jesus, we
see what is called an example,
00:43:49.12\00:43:56.20
and the example that he gave was
one in which he was innocent and
00:43:56.20\00:44:01.64
he committed no
sin, in verse 22, right.
00:44:01.64\00:44:06.61
No deceit was found in his
mouth, who when he was reviled,
00:44:06.61\00:44:10.45
did not revile in return.
00:44:10.45\00:44:13.11
When he suffered, he did
not threaten, but he committed
00:44:13.11\00:44:17.22
himself to him who judges
righteously, who himself bore
00:44:17.22\00:44:22.22
our sins in his own body on
the tree that we, having died to
00:44:22.22\00:44:27.30
sins, might live for
righteousness, by whose stripes
00:44:27.30\00:44:30.37
we are healed.
00:44:30.37\00:44:31.60
There's a dynamic that is taking
place here in which Jesus and
00:44:31.60\00:44:37.61
God the Father, in giving
Jesus, what are they doing?
00:44:37.61\00:44:40.64
What is their
action in the process?
00:44:40.64\00:44:43.51
They're refusing to retaliate
against the hostility and the
00:44:43.51\00:44:47.92
enmity and the anger that is
proceeding from human beings and
00:44:47.92\00:44:53.96
rather than responding in kind,
you have Jesus with no returning
00:44:53.96\00:44:58.96
violence.
00:44:58.96\00:45:00.96
Jesus submitting himself to
angry, raging, hostile human
00:45:00.96\00:45:05.63
beings who are at enmity with
God, and so, what we see taking
00:45:05.63\00:45:08.64
place at the cross is not
the Father venting on Jesus as a
00:45:08.64\00:45:16.34
third party whipping boy.
00:45:16.34\00:45:18.51
What we have at the cross is the
Father giving Jesus over to the
00:45:18.51\00:45:22.65
hostility and anger and hatred
that is in the human heart
00:45:22.65\00:45:25.79
against God.
00:45:25.79\00:45:26.96
And then, he's suffering at
our hands, not at the Father's
00:45:26.96\00:45:31.49
hands, and the reason this is
important for me is because you
00:45:31.49\00:45:36.00
basically have two models
or two views of sacrifice or of
00:45:36.00\00:45:41.57
atonement that are present
in our world of religion and
00:45:41.57\00:45:45.07
philosophy.
00:45:45.07\00:45:46.21
The pagan idea, if I can
use that terminology, is that
00:45:46.21\00:45:50.25
sacrifice involves 3 parties.
00:45:50.25\00:45:53.25
>>DAVID: Use the blocks.
00:45:53.25\00:45:54.48
>>TY: Three parties, alright,
so, if you have a 3 party view,
00:45:54.48\00:45:59.52
you have the sinner, you have
God, who's the offended party,
00:45:59.52\00:46:05.33
and then you have a third party
that has to be put in the middle
00:46:05.33\00:46:09.16
of the situation in order to
receive the wrath, the anger,
00:46:09.16\00:46:13.44
the hostility that will come
from God, the offended party and
00:46:13.44\00:46:17.17
block it from
reaching the sinner.
00:46:17.17\00:46:20.08
That's one view.
00:46:20.08\00:46:21.31
In that view of the sacrifice,
in that view of sacrifice and of
00:46:21.31\00:46:27.15
atonement, what's taking place
is that there's a third party
00:46:27.15\00:46:31.95
that God is offloading his wrath
and anger and hostility on.
00:46:31.95\00:46:37.76
But here's the thing, the
biblical picture isn't a 3 party
00:46:37.76\00:46:43.10
view of atonement, it's a
2 party view of atonement.
00:46:43.10\00:46:46.30
There isn't God, the sinner, and
then someone put in between to
00:46:46.30\00:46:53.34
receive, there's God and the
sinner, and the one on the cross
00:46:53.34\00:46:58.21
is none other than God.
00:46:58.21\00:46:59.45
God is the one who is submitting
himself to receive the
00:46:59.45\00:47:05.42
punishment, the weight, the
horror, and everything that is
00:47:05.42\00:47:09.29
in what we referred to
earlier as the nature of sin.
00:47:09.29\00:47:12.79
The wages of sin is death.
00:47:12.79\00:47:14.10
And the reason this is vital is
because if the sacrifice is made
00:47:14.10\00:47:22.04
by a third party in between God
and the sinner, then God's not
00:47:22.04\00:47:28.28
actually making sacrifice,
God's requiring sacrifice.
00:47:28.28\00:47:32.11
>>DAVID: Oh, say that again.
00:47:32.11\00:47:33.35
>>TY: Yeah, God's not making the
sacrifice, so it's not a display
00:47:33.35\00:47:37.39
of self-sacrificing
love on God's part.
00:47:37.39\00:47:39.02
He's requiring the
sacrifice from somebody else.
00:47:39.02\00:47:42.96
You can do an imaginary scenario
like this, just imagine that the
00:47:42.96\00:47:47.93
sin problem has now become
a reality, Adam and Eve have
00:47:47.93\00:47:50.63
fallen, and imagine that
an angel or two angels or a
00:47:50.63\00:47:55.17
thousand angels step forward
and say, we'll be the sacrifice,
00:47:55.17\00:47:59.71
we'll take the suffering,
we'll be the ones to make the
00:47:59.71\00:48:03.55
sacrifice, and God has
to say, it can't be you.
00:48:03.55\00:48:08.72
It has to be me because what's
required, what's necessary to
00:48:08.72\00:48:14.32
resolve the hostility and the
anger in the human heart, the
00:48:14.32\00:48:18.46
enmity that Paul talks about in
Romans chapter 8, that the human
00:48:18.46\00:48:22.66
heart is an enmity against God
and the law of God, that enmity
00:48:22.66\00:48:27.07
can only be resolved by
what Peter describes here.
00:48:27.07\00:48:30.21
God, in Christ, has to submit
and not retaliate against us and
00:48:30.21\00:48:37.15
make a non-violent approach
to us and exhaust our violence
00:48:37.15\00:48:45.09
against him and in not
retaliating, Peter goes on and
00:48:45.09\00:48:47.76
says, this is fascinating, he
says, for we were like sheep who
00:48:47.76\00:48:51.79
were going astray, but now we've
returned to the shepherd and
00:48:51.79\00:48:55.70
overseer of our souls.
00:48:55.70\00:48:58.13
We return or we repent because
we see in him, we're punching
00:48:58.13\00:49:02.30
him, we're crucifying him, we're
venting on him, and he just
00:49:02.30\00:49:06.04
keeps taking it and taking it
and taking it and taking it and
00:49:06.04\00:49:09.98
the devil is hoping, hoping he's
gonna break and he's going to,
00:49:09.98\00:49:13.92
he's going to do what
the mob is telling him to do.
00:49:13.92\00:49:19.65
The mob is saying, if you're the
Son of God, save yourself, save
00:49:19.65\00:49:21.69
yourself, come
down from the cross.
00:49:21.69\00:49:23.26
Here's the irony, he could've.
00:49:23.26\00:49:26.33
He could have changed in his
attitude toward them and rather
00:49:26.33\00:49:31.10
than Father forgive them, they
don't know what they're doing,
00:49:31.10\00:49:34.34
I'm gonna lay waste, you're
not gonna treat me like this.
00:49:34.34\00:49:36.87
I'm gonna respond to you in
kind, but no, he overcomes evil
00:49:36.87\00:49:40.91
with good.
00:49:40.91\00:49:41.98
And what is the good that
he puts on display that he
00:49:41.98\00:49:44.18
overcomes with?
00:49:44.18\00:49:45.38
By loving them, loving them,
loving them, loving them, loving
00:49:45.38\00:49:48.95
them, loving them,
loving them to the end.
00:49:48.95\00:49:50.95
>>DAVID: I know what you're
gonna say, but let me say this
00:49:50.95\00:49:52.05
real quick.
00:49:52.05\00:49:53.29
I'm not gonna touch down 10, and
this'll take 20 seconds, that
00:49:53.29\00:49:56.66
very attitude was displayed just
hours before when Peter pulls
00:49:56.66\00:50:01.46
out the sword, chops off the ear
of the high priest servant and
00:50:01.46\00:50:05.80
Jesus turns and says, wait a
minute, you're confused about
00:50:05.80\00:50:07.94
what's happening here.
00:50:07.94\00:50:09.27
Don't you think that I could
call my Father right now and, as
00:50:09.27\00:50:11.91
you say, lay waste?
00:50:11.91\00:50:13.54
But if you're gonna live by that
sword, then you're gonna die by
00:50:13.54\00:50:18.18
that sword.
00:50:18.18\00:50:19.31
I'm gonna show you a
better power, I'm gonna show you
00:50:19.31\00:50:20.85
something more
powerful than the sword.
00:50:20.85\00:50:22.88
>>TY: This is what's called,
in some circles, the myth of
00:50:22.88\00:50:28.36
redemptive violence.
00:50:28.36\00:50:29.69
And the myth of redemptive
violence shows up in all
00:50:29.69\00:50:32.93
superhero movies, in all cop
shows, in the idea that the way
00:50:32.93\00:50:39.83
you take care of bad behavior,
Jeffrey, you're doing something
00:50:39.83\00:50:45.04
wrong, the way I'm going to deal
with your violence is by being
00:50:45.04\00:50:48.78
violent to you.
00:50:48.78\00:50:49.98
This is why nations rise up
against nations in war, right?
00:50:49.98\00:50:54.25
But what would happen, it's
the myth of redemptive violence,
00:50:54.25\00:50:57.59
violence is not redemptive.
00:50:57.59\00:51:00.62
You can't respond in kind and in
the violence, what does it say,
00:51:00.62\00:51:05.26
a soft answer turns away wrath,
what does it say in Revelation
00:51:05.26\00:51:09.96
chapter 13, I don't know
the verse, I think it's verse 9,
00:51:09.96\00:51:12.77
that's what my memory's telling
me that anyone who kills with
00:51:12.77\00:51:15.54
the sword will be
killed with the sword.
00:51:15.54\00:51:16.84
>>JAMES: He that leads
into captivity will go into
00:51:16.84\00:51:18.37
captivity.
00:51:18.37\00:51:19.41
Here is the patience
and the faith of the saints.
00:51:19.41\00:51:20.64
>>TY: And the patience and the
faith of the saints is that they
00:51:20.64\00:51:22.94
don't participate in the
tit for tat, the violence.
00:51:22.94\00:51:26.21
If you kill with the
sword, that's the cycle.
00:51:26.21\00:51:29.65
Jesus broke the cycle of sin and
violence by refusing to respond
00:51:29.65\00:51:37.13
to us with violence.
00:51:37.13\00:51:39.16
We're standing before the cross
and he's forgiving us and loving
00:51:39.16\00:51:43.47
us and all we can do is look at
that and say, I'm either going
00:51:43.47\00:51:50.21
to keep being like this, or
that's gonna break the cycle in
00:51:50.21\00:51:53.74
me of retaliation and I'm gonna
submit and bow before this and
00:51:53.74\00:51:57.31
say, wow, you're not going to,
are you sure you're not gonna
00:51:57.31\00:52:01.42
throw any blows?
00:52:01.42\00:52:02.75
Because if he throws blows, then
what is that going to perpetuate
00:52:02.75\00:52:05.89
in us?
00:52:05.89\00:52:07.02
Throwing blows back.
00:52:07.02\00:52:08.26
>>JEFFREY: This whole thing that
you mentioned about the third
00:52:08.26\00:52:11.26
party and how Jesus is not just
some third party that jumps in,
00:52:11.26\00:52:14.10
that the Father requires Jesus.
00:52:14.10\00:52:16.83
If that were the case, as you
were saying, the Father wouldn't
00:52:16.83\00:52:20.14
be sacrificing, he
would be requiring.
00:52:20.14\00:52:23.27
>>DAVID: He wouldn't be making a
sacrifice, he would be requiring
00:52:23.27\00:52:26.11
a sacrifice.
00:52:26.11\00:52:27.21
>>JEFFREY: So, there's a
succession, a sequence of verses
00:52:27.21\00:52:29.48
in John 10:15, where Jesus
says, I lay down my life for the
00:52:29.48\00:52:33.92
sheep, John 10:17, I lay down my
life, John 13:37, I lay down my
00:52:33.92\00:52:42.49
life for your sake.
00:52:42.49\00:52:44.89
So, there's this, like, there's
this anthem, this echo all
00:52:44.89\00:52:48.93
through the New Testament where
Jesus is saying, I lay down my
00:52:48.93\00:52:52.53
life, I lay down my life, so,
that's an affirmation of what
00:52:52.53\00:52:55.60
you were just saying here.
00:52:55.60\00:52:56.84
God the Father and God the Son,
the whole Godhead is involved in
00:52:56.84\00:53:04.48
this sacrifice.
00:53:04.48\00:53:05.75
And it's not...
00:53:05.75\00:53:06.98
>>JAMES: 2 Corinthians 5, God
was in the world, reconciling
00:53:06.98\00:53:11.22
the world to himself.
00:53:11.22\00:53:12.12
>>JEFFREY: He chose
to lay down his life.
00:53:12.12\00:53:13.59
>>JAMES: And we
understand, go ahead.
00:53:13.59\00:53:15.92
>>DAVID: No, you go ahead.
00:53:15.92\00:53:17.09
>>JAMES: Well, I was gonna
say, we understand this in the
00:53:17.09\00:53:18.89
context of the need for us to be
reconciled to God and the need
00:53:18.89\00:53:23.00
for us to break the cycle, but
we also need to understand it in
00:53:23.00\00:53:26.94
the context of the
wages of sin is death.
00:53:26.94\00:53:29.50
So, we can't leave that out of
the picture, you understand what
00:53:29.50\00:53:31.91
I'm saying?
00:53:31.91\00:53:33.14
In other words, okay, God has
done this and he's broken the
00:53:33.14\00:53:35.71
cycle.
00:53:35.71\00:53:36.75
So, now we say to God,
yes, that's what we want.
00:53:36.75\00:53:39.78
We accept that.
00:53:39.78\00:53:41.18
And in that context, there's
still this wages of sin is death
00:53:41.18\00:53:45.95
that God has to deal with.
00:53:45.95\00:53:48.59
>>TY: But aren't we saying,
though, that the death is the
00:53:48.59\00:53:54.00
product of the sin problem
itself so that he's taken by,
00:53:54.00\00:53:58.80
God the Father delivers him
up and the sinners take him and
00:53:58.80\00:54:03.14
crucify him.
00:54:03.14\00:54:04.94
That's the dynamic so that
chapter 9 of Hebrews, verse 27
00:54:04.94\00:54:09.48
says, that Christ appeared once
at the end of the world, to put
00:54:09.48\00:54:14.62
away sin, it's verse 26, to
put away sin by the sacrifice of
00:54:14.62\00:54:18.55
himself.
00:54:18.55\00:54:20.02
So, God's action is an action
of self-sacrifice and that
00:54:20.02\00:54:25.89
self-sacrifice that he's making
is giving himself over to suffer
00:54:25.89\00:54:33.27
the full wages of sin in himself
rather than saying, no, you're
00:54:33.27\00:54:37.91
gonna have to go through it,
you're gonna suffer it, no, I'm
00:54:37.91\00:54:40.78
going to suffer it in your
place, for you, I'm going to be
00:54:40.78\00:54:44.01
your substitute ensurity.
00:54:44.01\00:54:45.41
>>DAVID: And if Jesus is not
fully and completely, by nature,
00:54:45.41\00:54:49.18
in all the fullness and sense
of what it means to be God, then
00:54:49.18\00:54:54.42
the plan of salvation is
fundamentally broken, because
00:54:54.42\00:54:57.56
now it's a God requiring a
whipping boy rather than God
00:54:57.56\00:55:02.06
himself making the sacrifice.
00:55:02.06\00:55:04.20
And you were reading there
in John 10, my favorite part is
00:55:04.20\00:55:06.43
verse 18, where he says, no one
takes my life from me, I lay it
00:55:06.43\00:55:11.21
down myself.
00:55:11.21\00:55:12.41
He says the same thing to Peter,
listen to, when he speaks to
00:55:12.41\00:55:16.24
Peter, he says, excuse me, when
he's speaking to Pilate, listen
00:55:16.24\00:55:20.08
to what he says, you would
have no power at all against me,
00:55:20.08\00:55:23.85
unless it had been given to you
from above, and I love this idea
00:55:23.85\00:55:28.29
that he's saying, you can't, you
think, you can't take my life
00:55:28.29\00:55:32.13
from me.
00:55:32.13\00:55:32.73
I'm gonna lay myself down.
00:55:32.73\00:55:34.46
I'm not being sacrificed,
I'm making a sacrifice.
00:55:34.46\00:55:39.27
The other word I wanna say
on that that's so, this is just
00:55:39.27\00:55:42.50
gigantic.
00:55:42.50\00:55:43.74
We have the question about who
was delivered to, you know, who
00:55:43.74\00:55:47.21
delivered, and it's very
interesting because in Acts
00:55:47.21\00:55:49.71
chapter 2, Peter says that he
was delivered by the determined
00:55:49.71\00:55:52.88
counsel and
foreknowledge of God.
00:55:52.88\00:55:55.15
But you know what's interesting,
listen to this, John chapter 19,
00:55:55.15\00:55:57.69
verse 16.
00:55:57.69\00:55:58.89
Then he delivered him, then
Pilate delivered him to the Jews
00:55:58.89\00:56:02.69
to be crucified.
00:56:02.69\00:56:03.93
Jesus says, therefore, the one
who delivered me to you has the
00:56:03.93\00:56:06.63
greater sin.
00:56:06.63\00:56:07.56
There's all this
deliverance that's going on.
00:56:07.56\00:56:09.40
The Jews actually take and
deliver Jesus to Pilate because
00:56:09.40\00:56:13.74
they didn't have the
right to administer an executive
00:56:13.74\00:56:16.47
punishment, a capital
punishment, so they give him to
00:56:16.47\00:56:18.64
Pilate.
00:56:18.64\00:56:19.77
Pilate's like, well, I
don't find any fault in the guy.
00:56:19.77\00:56:21.18
So, then, Jesus says, the one
that delivered me to you has the
00:56:21.18\00:56:24.25
greater sin.
00:56:24.25\00:56:25.41
Then Pilate's like, well, I
don't find any fault in him.
00:56:25.41\00:56:26.82
He delivers him back to the
Jews and the Jews basically, the
00:56:26.82\00:56:32.32
Jewish leadership of the day,
of course, not all Jews, the
00:56:32.32\00:56:34.42
disciples themselves were Jews.
00:56:34.42\00:56:35.62
They then initiate a series
of events, a sequence of events
00:56:35.62\00:56:38.69
that will result in the, not
just the death of Jesus, but the
00:56:38.69\00:56:43.67
tragic, terrible, unjust
humiliation of Jesus and yet,
00:56:43.67\00:56:48.80
Peter can look on that and
say that the deliverance to the
00:56:48.80\00:56:51.81
Jews, the deliverance from the
Jews, the deliverance to Pilate,
00:56:51.81\00:56:54.48
the deliverance from Pilate,
all of that, he says, God was in
00:56:54.48\00:56:57.28
that.
00:56:57.28\00:56:58.45
>>JAMES: But we were talking
about a temporal death, and
00:56:58.45\00:56:59.78
that's my point.
00:56:59.78\00:57:01.08
My point is, is that all that
we've described here is what,
00:57:01.08\00:57:03.82
you know, we talk about in the
consequence of sin, but all that
00:57:03.82\00:57:06.59
we've described
here is a temporal death.
00:57:06.59\00:57:09.09
>>DAVID: I don't think so.
00:57:09.09\00:57:10.33
>>JAMES: What I wanna just say,
so that we're clear on this, is
00:57:10.33\00:57:12.86
that Jesus gave
his soul up to death.
00:57:12.86\00:57:15.16
He died the second death and
then Jesus says, don't fear him
00:57:15.16\00:57:18.87
that kills the body, but fear
him that can kill body and soul
00:57:18.87\00:57:21.84
in hell.
00:57:21.84\00:57:22.84
So, there's a separation factor.
00:57:22.84\00:57:25.54
Why have you forsaken me?
00:57:25.54\00:57:27.08
There's a separation factor
there that has to be brought
00:57:27.08\00:57:29.68
into this.
00:57:29.68\00:57:31.05
That's the consequence of sin.
00:57:31.05\00:57:32.48
>>DAVID: That's
the essence of sin.
00:57:32.48\00:57:33.42
>>JAMES: Not just
the temporal death.
00:57:33.42\00:57:34.45
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, that's
a good wrap to Genesis 3.
00:57:34.45\00:57:36.05
Full circle.
00:57:36.05\00:57:37.42
>>DAVID: And the thing I wanna
say, the only slight pushback
00:57:37.42\00:57:39.72
that I would have, and I love
the fact that you've said that
00:57:39.72\00:57:41.22
is, when Jesus
says, I lay down my life.
00:57:41.22\00:57:43.22
The life that he's laying down
is not just the earthly, fleshly
00:57:43.22\00:57:47.13
life that, he is
laying down, he's God.
00:57:47.13\00:57:50.33
>>TY: Yeah, he's giving
the totality of himself.
00:57:50.33\00:57:53.70
>>DAVID: You know, Jesus, he
wasn't play acting, Father let
00:57:53.70\00:57:56.60
this cup pass from me, let this
cup pass from me, let this cup
00:57:56.60\00:57:58.61
pass from me.
00:57:58.61\00:57:59.41
If there's any other way.
00:57:59.41\00:58:01.28
>>TY: You know, you guys,
there's an article that was
00:58:01.28\00:58:05.15
written back in the 1800s where
Ellen White was describing the
00:58:05.15\00:58:09.88
very thing that we're trying to
get at here and this is a really
00:58:09.88\00:58:12.75
good summary statement for
me that's been helpful over the
00:58:12.75\00:58:16.02
years, the atonement of Christ
was not made in order to induce
00:58:16.02\00:58:21.26
God to love those whom he
otherwise hated, it was not made
00:58:21.26\00:58:25.63
to produce a love that was not
in existence, but it was made as
00:58:25.63\00:58:31.11
a manifestation of the love that
was already in God's heart as an
00:58:31.11\00:58:36.51
exponent of the divine
favor in the sight of heavenly
00:58:36.51\00:58:40.78
intelligences, in the sight
of worlds unfallen, and in the
00:58:40.78\00:58:44.75
sight of the fallen race.
00:58:44.75\00:58:48.29
And then, John 3:16 is quoted,
for God so loved the world that
00:58:48.29\00:58:53.03
he gave his only begotten
Son that whoever believes in him
00:58:53.03\00:58:56.46
should not perish,
but have everlasting life.
00:58:56.46\00:58:58.97
And then this, we are not
to entertain the idea that God
00:58:58.97\00:59:04.01
loves us because Christ has died
for us, but that he so loved us
00:59:04.01\00:59:12.08
that he gave his only
begotten Son to die for us.
00:59:12.08\00:59:17.89
That's a good note
upon which to close.
00:59:17.89\00:59:20.52
[Music]
00:59:20.52\00:59:30.57
[Music]
00:59:30.57\00:59:44.38