Participants: David Asscherick, James Refferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000032A
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00:00 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:23 our last conversation. 00:25 >>DAVID: So much energy we blew a light. 00:26 >>TY: Blew a light, but we also just couldn't stop and we felt 00:29 like we were hurrying through a lot of very powerful biblical 00:33 material, so we pretty much decided we need to just continue 00:37 on with the conversation where we left off and it segues nicely 00:41 into another one of the questions that we just wanted to 00:44 put forth, and that is do we need God in order to be moral? 00:48 Now, the reason we have this question on the table, there's a 00:50 background to it. 00:52 It might be worded here in a way that some people are thinking, 00:54 well, what in the world does that have to, I don't, that's 00:56 not a question that pops into my mind. 00:58 But if you pay attention to some of the conversations that are 01:03 going on among atheists, you have people like Richard 01:07 Dawkins, people like Sam Harris and various others, highly 01:11 educated scientists who are also atheists who are saying, we 01:17 don't need God to be moral, we're moral, and I'm an atheist 01:22 and I'm not moral, I mean, I'm moral, excuse me, I don't need 01:26 God because 01:27 -- >>DAVID: I don't need the big policeman in the sky. 01:29 >>TY: Yeah, I don't need arbitrary rules, I'm in an 01:32 evolutionary process that has given me the development of a 01:37 moral sense. 01:38 I have morals and I'm an atheist. 01:40 So, that's where the question comes from, but it goes all 01:44 kinds of other places, I think, when we look at scripture. 01:48 So, do we need God to be moral? 01:50 I mean, I'm just putting the question straight to you. 01:53 >>DAVID: Okay, let me, before you, you put the question right 01:55 to, we could also say this isn't just something that's happening 01:57 in the atheistic sort of academic circles, I hear this 02:00 question as an evangelist. 02:01 I'll have people say to me, well, why should I go to your 02:04 church or believe in your God. 02:06 I know some of your church members and I'm a better, I've 02:08 had people say that. 02:10 I know some of the people in your church, the way they do 02:12 business, the way they whatever, and they're no better than me. 02:15 >>TY: Well, let's 'fess up. 02:16 >>DAVID: They were actually talking about you, Ty. 02:18 [Laughter] 02:20 >>TY: The truth is, if we stop and we pay attention, we've all 02:24 had friends or acquaintances that were unbelievers who were 02:29 decent people. 02:30 >>DAVID: Better people than me. 02:31 >>TY: People who relate to their family with respect. 02:34 People who are doing community service, people who are 02:37 -- >>DAVID: Faithful to their spouse. 02:38 >>TY: Yeah, I know people who are atheist who've given their 02:42 whole lives to basically counteracting the sex slave 02:48 trade. 02:49 They've given themselves to a good moral cause because they 02:51 have a very high sense of justice. 02:53 The question is, is that high sense of justice something that 02:57 developed through the process of evolution? 02:59 Or is that high sense of justice and the difference between right 03:02 and wrong something that God originally created when he 03:08 engineered the human being and then it was compromised through 03:10 what the bible describes as the fall, but there's still vestiges 03:14 of that sense of morality in every human heart and God is 03:20 leveraging it, he's saying, hey, you know the difference between 03:23 right and wrong, not because you evolved this moral sense but 03:27 because you were created in my moral image and it's still 03:32 there. 03:33 You don't even acknowledge me, you don't believe in me, but the 03:36 fact is, I created you in such a way that you think that way, you 03:39 feel that way. 03:40 >>DAVID: You can't, like the psalmist said, if I ascend into 03:42 heaven, he's there, if I descend, God is ubiquitous, he's 03:46 pervasive, he's inescapable. 03:47 >>TY: That's right. 03:49 >>DAVID: Just to sort of put some personal David Asscherick 03:52 sort of vulnerability on this, one of the things that I've 03:56 wrestled with in my life is that I didn't, okay, I didn't have a 04:00 strong father figure early in my life. 04:02 It wasn't until I was adopted the second time that I really 04:04 had a dad. 04:06 Prior to that, when I was about 12 years old, prior to that, the 04:09 main father figure in my life was my grandfather. 04:12 Maybe the greatest man I've ever met, maybe the best, most moral, 04:18 kind, compassionate man I've ever met, his name was Charles 04:22 Oakley Atkins, my middle name is Charles, named after him, David 04:26 Charles. 04:26 My brother's Robert Oakley Atkins. 04:29 And he was a big, wonderful, compassionate but strong man. 04:33 And his nickname, everybody called him Oak. 04:35 Isn't that great? 04:36 His name was Oakley, and he was the oak of the family, I mean, 04:38 he just, there was a solidity to him, he was an anchor, and oh, I 04:44 could wax out for, one of the greatest honors of my life was 04:47 to preach my grandfather's, the homily at my grandfather's 04:49 funeral. 04:50 So, here's the thing with my grandfather. 04:53 After I became a believer he, let's see, I was 23, he would've 04:56 passed away about 4 years later. 04:57 So, he would've known me as a believer, he would've known 04:59 about my experience, becoming a follower of Jesus, going from a 05:02 young kid who just wanted to be a professional skateboarder to 05:06 this sort of, what he would've viewed as a very radical 05:09 transition, which my whole family did. 05:10 But my grandfather, unlike my grandmother, who was an overtly 05:13 Christian person, Presbyterian, loved the Lord, loved God, 05:18 Grandpa was, I wouldn't say he was ambivalent about religion, I 05:24 think that actually, that is what I would say. 05:25 He wasn't hostile, but he was ambivalent. 05:27 He wasn't, he never had anything negative to say, but he was, he 05:32 didn't go to church, he probably couldn't have found any text in 05:35 the bible, but this man was one of, like I said, the best men 05:40 I've ever met, and later in my life, later in my conversion, I 05:44 should say, toward the end of his life, when my wife and I, 05:47 Violeta, would go to visit, he was getting old, now this would 05:51 be a year or two before he passed away, and we would sing 05:57 to my grandparents. 05:58 My grandparents loved when Violeta and I would sing 05:59 harmonies, I would play the guitar, and without exception, 06:02 without exception, when we would play the song Amazing Grace, my 06:09 grandfather, in his stoic, wonderful, he would've been 06:12 almost 90 years old at this time, this father, this male 06:16 figure in my life, he would just, tears would just start to 06:19 come out of the corners of his eyes, you could just see it. 06:21 And my grandfather passed away, so far as I'm aware, never made 06:25 a confession of Christ or any, what we would call verbal, 06:29 outward, clearly Christian indication of faith and I don't 06:35 know, his case is in God's hands, I have complete peace 06:38 about that. 06:39 I know that God would not withhold salvation from anybody 06:42 that he could save. 06:43 But the point is, is that whether or not my grandfather, 06:46 that's not the question I'm addressing, whether or not he's 06:48 saved or not. 06:49 The point is is that this was a man who was Christian in every 06:54 seemingly, in terms of the conduct, but as far as the 06:59 content, I think that's a good way of saying it. 07:02 His theological content would've been nonexistent. 07:04 His conduct? 07:05 Absolutely Christian. 07:07 So, where does that come from? 07:12 Is that an evolutionary process? 07:13 Is that, no, that is the spirit of God, the revelation of Christ 07:19 to my grandfather, to every human being, wooing him toward 07:24 truth. 07:24 Wooing him. 07:25 >>JEFFREY: We were reading in John 1, where it says that he 07:31 lights every man that comes into the world, right? 07:33 >>DAVID: So, my grandfather, here's the question, do we need, 07:37 how did we say it? 07:39 Do we need God in order to be moral? 07:40 The answer is yes, but not for the reasons that some people 07:44 think. 07:45 >>TY: Or not in the way. 07:46 >>DAVID: Not in the way. 07:48 >>JEFFREY: Not in the sense that you need to be a churchgoing, 07:49 bible believing Christian in order to do moral acts, but in 07:55 the sense that morality, in that sense, flows from the very 07:58 person of God. 07:59 So, if you were to remove God out of the picture, there would 08:02 be no such thing as this intuitive moral compass that we 08:06 all have. 08:07 >>JAMES: Let's look at a bible verse, and there's a number of 08:09 bible verses, I think, that we can look at, but one of them 08:12 that I think about is in Titus chapter 2. 08:14 >>DAVID: Oh, I got that written down here, what are you doing? 08:16 >>JAMES: Titus chapter 2 and verse 11. 08:17 >>DAVID: Quit looking at my paper. 08:18 >>JAMES: You had a long spiel there, so I gotta jump in there. 08:21 >>JEFFREY: You got hijacked. 08:22 >>DAVID: Thank you for letting me open my heart to you about my 08:23 grandfather. 08:24 >>JAMES: No, that was beautiful, we loved it. 08:25 Titus 2, verse 11, and this is one of a number of bible verses, 08:30 we looked at a couple, but I think it would be really good 08:32 for us to just note a few more, that talk about the big picture, 08:36 as we talked about earlier, the macro picture, how God pervades 08:42 all humanity, all society, all culture, how God is working 08:46 through his Holy Spirit, you know, Romans, Paul says, those 08:49 who do not have the spirit of Christ are none of his, and you 08:51 were talking about how your grandpa has the spirit of 08:53 Christ. 08:54 Okay, he doesn't know Christ, but he has the spirit. 08:55 And Daniel, again, we're going back to the Old Testament, 08:58 Daniel had the spirit of the living God, and heathen people 09:01 knew that. 09:02 Darius knew it, the mother of Belshazzar knew it, you know, 09:06 there's this man, in him there's the spirit of the living God. 09:08 >>DAVID: The spirit of the living God, that's right, that's 09:10 a different kind of guy. 09:11 >>JAMES: And so, in Titus chapter 2 and verse 11, it says, 09:15 for the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all 09:18 men, and now, here's what he goes on to say, teaching us, 09:22 that deny ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live 09:26 soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. 09:30 Okay, so that's what happened to your grandpa, that's what's 09:33 happening in this world today, in spite of, now, we say, 09:37 without Christians, without evangelists, without, sometimes, 09:41 we have to say, in spite of, in spite of Christians, in spite of 09:45 the way we come across and the way we represent God, in spite 09:48 of us saying, if you haven't confessed Jesus Christ, you 09:51 can't be saved, in spite of us saying that. 09:53 >>TY: There's a verse, and I don't know where it is, that 09:55 says the Lord knows those who are his. 09:58 >>JAMES: That's in Timothy. 10:00 >>TY: Okay, so the Lord is looking down from his vantage 10:03 point where he sees what's going on in people's hearts and he 10:10 knows those that are his, whereas, from our limited 10:14 perspective, our judgement is skewed and we might look and we 10:19 might think that we've picked out who belong to the Lord and 10:23 who don't belong to the Lord, and we say, those are the wheat, 10:26 those are the tariffs, we think we know, but our judgement is 10:31 skewed, so I look at what you've just described about your 10:34 grandfather and my heart was just moved, David, and I'll tell 10:38 you why. 10:40 Not just because you're my friend and I love you and I 10:43 think that it's a beautiful thing that brings my heart joy 10:46 that you had that person in your life. 10:50 That moves me on one level, but on another level, when you're 10:53 describing that, it comes to my mind, well, wait a minute, the 10:57 Lord is looking down on the situation and let's just say, if 11:02 I were to go to your grandfather and anybody else, all kinds of 11:06 different people in the world, and take religious language out 11:11 of the equation, so to speak, and have, imagine this 11:14 conversation with Oak. 11:16 What are your opinions about justice, treating people fairly? 11:21 Yep, I agree, that's how, that's what I say, what do you think 11:25 about people who are down and out and they're marginalized and 11:28 they just don't have enough, but you have a little more and you 11:32 have an opportunity to help them, what would your response 11:35 be? 11:36 >>DAVID: Yeah, he lived that way. 11:37 >>TY: Yeah, he lived that way. 11:38 Hey, what's your opinion about humility versus arrogance? 11:41 I like the humility thing, I don't like the arrogance thing. 11:45 Do you see where I'm going with this? 11:46 >>DAVID: Absolutely. 11:47 >>TY: You're describing the character of Jesus without using 11:53 the name and Oak is aligned with Jesus. 11:57 >>JEFFREY: He recognized that that's the very thing. 12:01 >>TY: Yeah, he's aligned with Jesus. 12:02 Do you see how that works or am I stretching this? 12:06 >>DAVID: I don't think you're stretching it. 12:07 >>TY: I've met unbelievers, call them atheist, agnostic, 12:13 whatever, they don't believe in God or the bible, who are 12:20 atheists on just grounds. 12:23 >>DAVID: Absolutely. 12:25 People are rejecting God for the right reasons. 12:26 >>TY: Rejecting God for the right reasons because of 12:28 misrepresentations of God. 12:30 So, when I say to you or you say to me or anybody in our world, 12:34 in our culture says, I believe in God, we can't assume that 12:40 what they mean when they say, I believe in God, is precisely 12:45 what you mean when you say you believe in God. 12:47 We could be holding, in our minds, two entirely different 12:53 pictures of what is meant, what is in contained in the word God. 12:59 >>DAVID: And the word belief. 13:01 >>TY: And there are some people who say, I don't believe in God, 13:03 and if you said to them, describe that, what you don't 13:09 believe in, you might turn around, Jeffrey, and say, well, 13:11 actually, I don't believe in that, either, so I share your 13:14 atheism in the sense that I reject that picture of God that 13:19 I find is as repulsive and untenable as you do. 13:22 Then, they might turn around and say, well, that's a new thought, 13:25 could you describe for me the God you do believe in? 13:28 And when you begin to describe things like compassion and mercy 13:31 and justice, yeah, they might say, well, I believe in all 13:34 that. 13:35 >>JEFFREY: So, basically, you're saying we have to define our 13:38 terms to have any intelligent conversation. 13:40 >>DAVID: We shouldn't assume. 13:41 >>TY: And we need to recognize, I think, what we're trying to 13:45 say is that all of this moral activity that goes outside of 13:49 the borders of religion and is pervasive throughout the world 13:53 and trying to creep into every human heart, all of that moral 13:56 sense is, in fact, from God, as the author of 14:00 -- >>DAVID: By his spirit. 14:02 [inaudible chatter] 14:05 >>TY: It's not the product of evolutionary advancement, no? 14:09 >>DAVID: Evolution, I don't even understand, I've heard the 14:12 arguments, I don't see how the evolutionary process, Darwinian 14:16 process can even begin to account for what we view as 14:20 morality. 14:21 >>JEFFREY: I have a story on that I wanna share after the 14:22 break. 14:23 >>TY: You tell that story right after the break. 14:25 [Music] 14:33 Announcer: Want a seat at the table? 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16:51 And somebody said that, it can't come from evolution, can it? 16:55 And that statement reminded me of an experience I had on a 16:59 plane. 17:00 I was flying from Europe back to the states and I was sitting 17:04 next to this guy and we started small talk, and he asked me, 17:09 hey, what are you doing, where are you going? 17:10 And I mentioned that I just came from a conference and he said, 17:12 what's the conference about? 17:13 And every time somebody asks me that question on a plane, I'm 17:15 always, oh, man, because I'm gonna say, I came from a bible 17:18 conference where I was teaching the bible, and it's, you know, 17:21 then you get into religion, and when I said that, the guy was 17:25 like, ugh, I'm an atheist. 17:27 And so, we got into this conversation. 17:28 >>JAMES: That's how he said it? 17:30 Just like that? 17:30 Ugh. 17:31 >>JEFFREY: Through the course of the conversation, literally, 17:33 that's how he responded. 17:35 Through the course of the conversation, we got into some 17:37 deep, philosophical stuff and this issue of morality, this 17:40 very question we're talking about now came up. 17:43 Do we need God to be moral? 17:46 And I was basically sharing, and I wanna know if you guys 17:49 resonate with this, if this is even a good idea. 17:51 I was sharing with him the impossibility of us even 17:56 believing in morality if God is out of the picture, right? 18:00 I was arguing that we need God for morality and the basic 18:04 premise of his rebuttal to me was that morality doesn't come 18:07 from God, morality develops through the evolutionary process 18:12 and the way that that's manifested is this thing called 18:15 the herd instinct. 18:16 You guys have heard about it, of course, the herd instinct. 18:18 >>DAVID: We've heard of the herd instinct. 18:20 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, you've heard of the herd instinct, right? 18:22 So, basically, at some point in history, we were all cavemen, 18:24 cavewomen, and we figured out that there are certain 18:28 behavioral patterns that are beneficial for the 18:31 -- >>TY: Herd. 18:32 >>JEFFREY: 18:33 --for the herd, right, for society, and that's how we 18:35 basically evolved. 18:36 So, we figured out that it's not good to steal, because if I 18:39 steal from Ty, then Ty is gonna steal from me and then we're 18:42 gonna kill each other, so we figured out, maybe we should not 18:45 steal, and that's how morality, through time, anyway, so, in 18:49 that course of that conversation, he basically said 18:54 that society determines morality. 18:56 We don't need God, society determines morality. 18:58 And I posed a question. 18:59 I said, have there been societies where people believe 19:05 certain things were okay but that were totally corrupt? 19:09 And I mentioned the classic example, Nazi Germany, I said, 19:12 you know, 1940s, Nazi Germany, it was believed and accepted, 19:17 society dictated and taught and said that it was acceptable to 19:22 kill individuals because of their ethnic background and so 19:25 forth and so forth. 19:25 I believe that that's wrong. 19:27 Are you saying that because their society told them that, 19:32 that that's right, or would you say it was wrong, the Holocaust 19:36 was wrong? 19:37 And the point there is just, it just revealed a huge 19:40 contradiction. 19:41 He basically thought about it for a second, I could see his 19:43 thought process, and he realized that there was a contradiction 19:45 there. 19:46 Because he believed, intuitively that the Holocaust was 19:48 desperately wicked. 19:50 But this is what he said, he basically said, in their time, 19:56 and in their society, I don't have the right to say that that 19:58 was wrong. 19:59 >>TY: Because he's struggling to be consistent with his logic. 20:01 He feels like he's blocked in. 20:03 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, and to me, that was just so telling that there 20:07 is, it's very difficult to arrive at even a foundation for 20:12 morality without God in the picture and every other 20:15 conceivable replacement, alternative explanation is 20:19 totally bankrupt, because if we're counting society, there 20:21 was a time in the United States of America not too long ago, 20:25 where because of the color of your skin such and such. 20:28 >>TY: So society was dictating. 20:30 >>JEFFREY: Society, society. 20:32 So, to me, that was just one example that came to my mind 20:35 where, to remove God out of the equation and if we're left with 20:40 evolutionary processes and the development of society, well, 20:45 we're in trouble now, because now we can't, we can't even 20:47 determine what's right or wrong because that's up to any 20:51 individual society, which is totally not true, because 20:53 everybody knows, everybody watches and views and hears what 20:57 happens in different parts of the world and we all react to it 20:59 as if there was something wrong with the morality of that 21:02 society. 21:04 Which, in instance, we're revealing, we can cast 21:07 judgements on another society when we feel they're immoral. 21:10 So, it's not true that morality comes from society. 21:11 >>TY: Well, we could take it another step and point out that 21:15 evolutionary morality is fundamentally one step short of 21:23 what we're calling morality because even in the usage of the 21:28 term moral, the evolutionary developed morality all thats 21:33 being defined there is a different, more sophisticated 21:36 level of self-preservation, or selfishness. 21:40 So, when we use the word morality, we're talking about an 21:43 altruism that is actually putting the other first for the 21:48 sake of the other. 21:50 Do you hear that? 21:51 Versus in the evolutionary morality, I'm putting you first 21:55 to my advantage. 21:57 >>JEFFREY: I'm not stealing from you for my own benefit so that 22:02 you don't steal from me, as opposed to it's wrong to do that 22:04 to you. 22:05 >>TY: Yeah, so it's a morality that is still self-centered, 22:07 it's a morality that is void if what we call, what the bible 22:10 calls love, it's a morality that is basically just another 22:14 manifestation of the survival of the fittest, you know, 22:18 scratching and clawing for the top spot, but we're scratching 22:22 and clawing at a more sophisticated level. 22:25 Now, we're wearing suits and ties, now we're scratching and 22:29 clawing through conversation and negotiation, but it's not 22:33 morality. 22:35 When the bible talks about this standard of morality, it's 22:39 describing something that transcends human culture and 22:44 human cultures are tapping into it and experiencing it because 22:49 of the way God made us in his image, and to some degree, we've 22:52 lost it, to a major degree, we've lost it, but we're 22:54 approaching it, there's a gravitational pull upon the 22:59 human heart and the human conscience toward a level of 23:02 morality that is altruistic, that is goodness for the sake of 23:07 goodness. 23:08 >>JEFFREY: Yeah, there's even a more fundamental question that 23:10 evolution would not answer, because science tells us what 23:14 is, but it doesn't tell us what ought to be, right? 23:16 So, a more fundamental question would be why should we care 23:21 about the other individual? 23:22 So, from an evolutionary perspective, somebody might say, 23:25 well, we are moral, we behave in moral ways because it makes 23:29 society better. 23:30 But a fundamental question would be, why should I care about 23:34 making society better? 23:36 On the basis of what should I be interested in, so you just keep 23:40 going in circles and whereas, in the biblical world view, we have 23:43 a foundation for why individuals are valuable, why they should be 23:48 treated such and such, they were created in the image of God. 23:50 Well, you don't get that from the whole... 23:51 >>DAVID: I actually find that, I find the argument, and I've read 23:55 a couple papers, actually several papers from atheists on 23:59 the evolutionary argument for the development of morality and 24:02 I actually find it fairly persuasive. 24:05 In other words, well, just the idea that if it were true, that 24:10 cumulatively, over time, people had a dawning awareness that to 24:14 do a negative act could reverberate negatively back on 24:18 me, that that would then begin to create a sense in which a 24:22 modicum or at least a veneer of morality would spread through a 24:27 given population. 24:28 I find that reasonable persuasive. 24:30 What, in other words, that seems plausible to me. 24:33 What I find to be the touchstone, though, the point is 24:37 Ty's point, and that is that even if that's true, even if we 24:41 give that, if we grant that, if that's at least a possibility, 24:45 that that could happen, that's conceivable, it's still a 24:49 morality that's rooted, to some degree, in what benefits me 24:53 ultimately or my progeny or my neighbor or, it's me, but in the 24:58 biblical portrait, love does good to another for the benefit 25:05 of the other, and even at the expense of one self. 25:09 That's the whole idea of sacrifice. 25:12 I actually do a series, a lecture on this very thing that 25:17 contrasts at the most fundamental level, if Darwinism 25:21 is true, if evolutionary, if that picture of the world is 25:26 true versus if the picture that Jesus painted is true, what does 25:30 reality end up looking like? 25:32 In other words, let's just take this to its logical conclusion, 25:34 let's take this to its logical conclusion. 25:35 And I find it to be a fairly persuasive argument, but at the 25:38 end of that presentation that I make, I tell this story of a 25:42 plane that, a number of years ago, like about a decade ago, 25:45 crashed, went just off the end of the runway in Toronto, and in 25:50 the airport there, the airport is close to or reasonably 25:54 adjacent to the freeway that runs by, and here comes this Air 25:58 France flight, goes off the end of the runway and just 26:00 immediately is in flames. 26:02 And here are people driving down the road and they see this plane 26:06 that's in flames. 26:08 They spontaneously pull their cars over, get out of their cars 26:13 and race, climbing over fences, race across the field, several 26:17 hundred yards, to this plane, because people saw this, dozens 26:21 of cars saw this, they run over there and at, I man, this is a 26:25 burning airplane, the doors had been opened, two of the four 26:29 evacuation doors were operational, they began to help 26:32 people get off, people are dragging people, people are 26:35 being burned, and the Canadian Department of Transportation, 26:39 the Minister of Transportation actually came on within 5 or 10 26:43 minutes of the flight crashing and made an announcement, hey, 26:46 there's been a terrible crash, there's been loss of life, we 26:48 don't know how much. 26:50 She's making this announcement, she's gotten word, it's come 26:52 back to her, this announcement's made, what unbeknownst to her is 26:56 that there are motorists, just citizens, that are racing into 27:00 peril, racing into death, potentially, helping people, 27:04 they don't know these people, they're not family members, 27:06 they're not friends, they're not, they don't know who these 27:08 people are, they're just humans pulling them off and as the 27:12 story goes, not one person perished. 27:15 It's an absolutely, and I closed the story and I give, in the 27:19 presentation that I give, there's this journalist who's 27:22 writing the next day and, I don't know if it's the Toronto 27:24 Star, the Toronto Sun or something. 27:26 He's telling the story, and he says, here's the bottom line, 27:31 strangers got out of their cars, the comfort and safety and 27:36 security of their cars, raced toward a burning aircraft to 27:38 help people that they do not know, may never meet again, put 27:41 their own lives at peril, and in a matter of 2 minutes organized 27:45 an effective evacuation procedure to get every single 27:48 person off of that airplane before, moments later, it was 27:52 engulfed in flames. 27:53 Okay, now that, that is very difficult. 27:56 That kind of magnanimous, absolutely selfless, altruistic 27:59 behavior. 28:01 I don't see how the herd thing can explain that. 28:04 >>TY: It makes no evolutionary sense. 28:06 >>JEFFREY: There's no survivability there. 28:08 >>JAMES: I gotta read this statement in the context of 28:11 that. 28:12 >>DAVID: Yeah, please. 28:13 >>JAMES: It's in a book called the Desire of Ages, it's on page 28:14 638 and this is what it says, those whom Christ commends into 28:19 judgement may have known little of theology, but they have 28:21 cherished his principles. 28:23 Through the influence of the divine spirit, they have been a 28:26 blessing to those about them, even among the heathen are those 28:29 who have cherished the spirit of kindness before the words of 28:34 life had fallen upon their ears. 28:35 They have befriended the missionaries, even ministering 28:39 to them at the peril of their own lives. 28:41 Among the heathen of those who worship God ignorantly, those to 28:45 whom the light is never brought my human instrumentality, yet 28:48 they will not perish, I think that's our question here, our 28:52 issue here, though ignorant of the written law of God, they 28:55 have heard his voice speaking to them in nature and they have 28:58 done the things that the law required. 29:00 Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched 29:04 their hearts and they are recognized as the children of 29:08 God, how surprising gladdened will be the lowly among the 29:11 nations and among the heathen to hear from the lips of the 29:15 Savior and as much as you've done it unto the least of these, 29:18 my brethren, you've done it unto me. 29:20 How glad will be the heard of infinite love as his followers 29:24 look up with surprise and joy at his words of approval. 29:28 >>DAVID: Hallelujah, sweet Jesus. 29:29 >>JAMES: Isn't that a powerful statement? 29:30 >>TY: Yeah, beautiful. 29:31 >>DAVID: So, check this out, on the break, when we were trying 29:33 to, you know, we had some technical things to take care of 29:35 on this last break, Ty just spontaneously said, coming out 29:39 of that first presentation, the first section of this talk, he 29:43 said, spontaneously, do you remember what you said? 29:45 >>TY: Nope. 29:46 >>DAVID: You said, this truth about God is so liberating. 29:50 >>TY: Liberating, yeah. 29:52 >>DAVID: It's so liberating because it frees you to believe 29:56 the best about people. 29:58 We know that humanity is fallen, we know that there's 30:01 selfishness, we know that the heart is deceitful above all 30:03 things, we know that, but we also know that the spirit of 30:06 God, in his pervasive, wonderful, wooing way. 30:09 You know, this, what I said to Ty is, this overwhelms me the 30:13 most in airports, I don't know what it is about airports, but 30:16 all of 30:17 -- >>TY: There's a lot of people there, for one thing. 30:18 >>DAVID: There's a lot of people, and every time I'm at an 30:21 airport, I see all these people waiting to go to Des Moines, I 30:24 see all these people waiting to go to Birmingham, I see these 30:25 people waiting to go to Cancun, and I'm thinking, every one of 30:28 those people's life is just as real and important to them as my 30:33 life is real and important to me. 30:34 I don't know them, I don't know where they're going, I don't 30:36 know the names of their children. 30:38 And you can become overwhelmed and think, how is the gospel 30:43 gonna get to every one of these people? 30:45 And as a minister, as somebody who has dedicated his life, as a 30:47 ministry that's dedicated our life, we're doing what we can, 30:50 and praise God, there are other ministries that are doing what 30:53 they can, but there is still an ocean beyond, people that are 30:56 untapped, but I just become so thrilled with the fact that God, 31:01 while using us, while asking us to participate in his word is 31:05 not outright, absolutely dependent on David Asscherick, 31:09 he's wooing, he's inviting, and in that quotation you just read 31:13 there, she says that these people who have done right, they 31:16 hear his voice, the word, the wisdom, the light that lights 31:22 every man. 31:24 >>TY: They're literally in the language of this quotation, 31:30 they're literally heathen who hear the well done from God. 31:37 It's amazing. 31:38 There's an example of this that is explicit in the ministry of 31:42 Jesus in Matthew chapter 8 if you guys wanna take a look at 31:46 this, I think that you will find this to be very beautiful and 31:51 satisfying, not only, as David said, because it liberates us to 31:56 believe the best about people. 32:00 >>DAVID: And to hope the best for them. 32:02 >>TY: Yeah, and to hope the best for them, it also, it liberates 32:05 us to believe the best about God and the way God is intersecting 32:09 with people. 32:10 But, look at this. 32:11 Here, Jesus, yeah, Jesus is ministering within the nation of 32:17 Israel and then it says here that when Jesus entered 32:22 Capernaum, a centurion came to him, pleading with him, saying, 32:25 Lord my servant lies home, sick with the palsy, he's paralyzed, 32:29 he's dreadfully tormented. 32:31 So, here's the story, you got a centurion, this is a Roman, so a 32:35 Gentile, a Roman soldier. 32:38 That Roman soldier comes to Jesus, there's some kind of 32:42 attraction, okay, he sees something, he sees something in 32:47 Jesus that draws him to Jesus, which is a point we've made 32:50 earlier that people are attracted to the character of 32:55 Jesus, they see goodness in him that is like a gravitational 32:58 pull upon their hearts. 32:59 So, he comes to Jesus, expecting goodness from Jesus. 33:04 Jesus, my servant is sick. 33:06 Would you heal him? 33:07 Jesus then affirms, we know the story, and says, yes, I'll heal 33:11 him. 33:11 >>DAVID: Just tell it, I love it. 33:13 >>TY: I'll come and heal him. 33:15 And the centurion responds and says, I'm not even worthy for 33:18 you to come under my roof to come into my house, but speak 33:21 the word only and my servant will be healed. 33:23 All you have to do is just speak the word and I know that what 33:26 you say will take place. 33:28 The centurion then explains his understanding of this based on 33:32 his own relation to those who are under him. 33:33 He says, I'm a man, I have a little bit of authority in 33:36 myself, and I'm under authority, I know how authority works, and 33:40 I see authority in you over my problem, and would you please 33:44 use it? 33:45 So, here's the part that is just amazing. 33:48 Jesus goes through this entire interaction, the servant gets 33:50 healed and then Jesus turns to the religious folks around him, 33:55 he turns to the Pharisees, the scribes, to the Jewish believers 34:01 around him, and Jesus says something that, in this context, 34:04 can only be regarded as scandalous. 34:07 >>DAVID: Scandalous, that's the right word. 34:08 >>TY: Jesus says, in verse 10 of Matthew 8, assuredly I say to 34:12 you, to you religious people, I have not found such great faith, 34:18 not even in Israel. 34:20 Okay, that's the foundation. 34:22 So, then if that's not scandalous enough, Jesus then 34:26 blows the lid off this thing and says to these people who believe 34:29 that salvation is exclusively for them, Jesus says to them, 34:34 and, okay, and, I say to you that many, not a few, but many 34:40 will come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, 34:45 Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 34:49 Isn't that amazing? 34:50 So, with this, Jesus has basically said, when we get to 34:54 the other side of this great controversy between good and 34:57 evil, surely, these people believe, yep, Abraham will be 35:00 there. 35:01 Yep, yep, Abraham will be there. 35:02 Isaac, he'll be there, Jacob will be there and they're 35:05 kicking back under the tree of life, that's the picture we have 35:08 here, basically, and they're fellowshipping and Jesus says, 35:12 wait a minute, there are gonna be many from the east and the 35:16 west, so geographically, he's saying, we're here in Israel, 35:19 but if you go to the east, we're dealing with 35:21 -- >>DAVID: Persians. 35:23 >>TY: Yeah, Asia, you go to the west, we're dealing with western 35:28 Europe and the British Isles and all of that, okay, and he says, 35:32 there are gonna be many people from all these different 35:35 cultures and nations and they will come and sit down with 35:39 Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom. 35:41 This scripture is Jesus explicitly saying that people 35:46 from all different cultures that have never had access to the 35:52 special revelatory knowledge of Israel 35:54 -- >>DAVID: In scripture. 35:55 >>TY: Yet these people will be in the kingdom. 35:58 >>JEFFREY: That would've sounded crazy to the original audience 36:01 here. 36:02 >>TY: Absolutely, but if you fast-forward to the book of 36:04 revelation, in chapter 7, John sees what he calls a great 36:09 multitude, which no man could number, and do you know, do you 36:12 remember the rest? 36:13 Out of every nation, kindred, tongue, or language group, and 36:17 people. 36:18 In the kingdom, a great multitude. 36:21 >>DAVID: And, let me tell you, to me, the story, talking about 36:25 liberation, the story of Jesus and the way that he affirms the 36:29 faith of the Roman centurion. 36:31 I wanna say something about this. 36:32 Jesus' endorsement of the centurion's faith and his 36:35 healing of the centurion's servant was not a wholesale 36:37 endorsement of all of the things about this man. 36:41 It wasn't an endorsement of the fact that he's a soldier and 36:43 that he would've been, in other words, what he's saying is, hey, 36:45 here's a person who's on a journey. 36:47 Here's somebody who has at least the glimmerings, the dawning of 36:51 recognition of who I am and I'm walking around my own people, 36:55 because the next part that he says is the kind of stuff that 36:59 got him killed. 37:00 Verse 12, but the sons of the kingdom, they will be cast into 37:06 outer darkness and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 37:10 In the first segment, Jeffrey basically said, there are 37:13 religious people who have a mischaracterization of who God 37:16 is, and there are non-religious people, we would say, 37:18 non-Israelites, moral, who have a correct concept, and that's 37:21 what Jesus is doing here. 37:23 And there is, by the way, and I don't have time to develop it 37:25 here, but there is a very intentional positioning of 37:30 Matthew's telling of this story with Jesus coming down off of 37:34 the mountain. 37:35 It's the first major miracle other than the healing of the 37:37 leper, which happens just before this. 37:38 Matthew has positioned this story and I believe Jesus 37:41 positioned this experience, he saw this guy and said, man, 37:45 because this was the very thing that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob 37:49 were called to do, to take the gospel, not just given to, but 37:53 through and here this isolationationist, elitist, 37:56 patriotic, nationalistic, insular mentality had overtaken 38:02 Israel and Jesus starts dropping these little seeds to the 38:06 Cyrophenecian woman, to the woman at the well who was a 38:08 Samaritan, to the 38:09 -- >>JEFFREY: There's a term that he uses, even Paul, the 38:12 true Israelite, a spiritual Israelite. 38:15 So, this guy's a centurion. 38:16 >>DAVID: Paul doesn't use the word spiritual Israelite. 38:18 >>JEFFREY: No, no, no, but this whole concept of Israel of God, 38:21 and an Israelite indeed, but here in Matthew 8, so this guy's 38:25 a centurion, but he's really at heart, to the core, he's a 38:30 spiritual Israelite, basically. 38:31 In character and in spirit. 38:33 >>TY: Jesus is describing, I guess what might be called a 38:37 great exchange. 38:38 Picture two circles overlapping, and over here, in this circle is 38:44 the wide, unbelieving world that doesn't directly associate 38:48 itself with Christianity or with Israel at this time and its 38:53 teachings. 38:55 And this circle overlapping represents the church or Israel 39:00 back at this time, they're overlapping. 39:02 Here's the thing, right there at the overlap point, that's where 39:07 the Lord knows those who are his, but this is amazing, what 39:11 Jesus is describing here is that many, the sons of light, those 39:17 who have had great privilege and knowledge, many of those, what 39:21 are they gonna do? 39:21 Outer darkness. 39:22 And at the same time, simultaneously, what's gonna 39:24 happen with those who haven't had all the privilege and light? 39:27 It's just gonna, a great exchange. 39:30 Tribe after tribe, company after company, from the unbelieving 39:34 world, are gonna come into the fold and 39:37 -- >>JEFFREY: They're gonna be shaken out. 39:38 >>TY: Group after group are gonna be shaken out. 39:41 Isn't that amazing? 39:42 >>DAVID: I'm on fire. 39:43 >>JAMES: Now, there's a few more verses here that I wanted to 39:46 look at, but Ty was also taking us to a step of scandals. 39:48 You were saying it was more scandalous, take this, you got 39:52 this next step, and I think the Cyrophanician woman is another 39:55 one. 39:55 >>DAVID: That's a scandal. 39:56 >>JAMES: Because the question I would ask is can dogs be saved? 39:58 In the mind of the Jews, these people outside of their borders, 40:04 were like dogs. 40:05 And Jesus picks up, yeah, and Jesus picks that up because when 40:09 the Cyrophanician woman comes to him, asking this favor, and 40:13 she's the only other person in the life of Christ, the ministry 40:16 of Christ, she's the only other person where Jesus says, great 40:18 is your faith, great is your faith. 40:20 Your faith has made you whole, your faith, but great is 40:23 yout faith to the centurion, great is your faith to the 40:25 Cyrophanician woman. 40:27 But before he does that, she's asking him for a favor and he 40:29 says, it's not me to take the children's food and give it to 40:33 the dogs. 40:34 >>DAVID: He's voicing their own prejudices. 40:35 >>JAMES: And what he's saying there is, when he commends her 40:39 faith, he's saying to his disciples to the Jewish nation, 40:41 this is what I came, these are the people I came to save. 40:44 >>TY: The ones you call dogs, I don't regard that way at all. 40:48 >>JAMES: He's going, in other words, he's answering our 40:50 question, he's telling us that there are people out there, that 40:53 we consider dogs, there are people out there in this, in 40:56 military uniform, there are people out there, women that 41:00 have been married 2 times, 3 times, 5 times, there are people 41:03 out there that are more moral and more appreciative and more 41:08 accepting of me as the Messiah and ready for salvation than you 41:11 guys are in all of your religiosity. 41:13 >>TY: Amazing, we have to take a break. 41:14 >>DAVID: When we come back, we have to go to Romans 9, because 41:17 that's Romans 9. 41:19 >>TY: Yeah, let's pause. 41:21 that's Romans 9. 41:29 Announcer: A Light in Zambia is a moving video documentary that 41:32 traces the stories of 5 amazing African men and women who 41:36 encountered Christ through the powerful medium of gospel 41:39 literature. 41:40 To receive your free copy, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light 41:46 Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 41:53 Simply ask for the Zambia DVD. 41:56 Simply ask for the Zambia DVD. 42:02 [Music] 42:03 eak, I'm just 42:05 vibrating, do you feel that? 42:07 [inaudible chatter] 42:09 I am a Pentecostal right now, like I believe in the 42:12 Pentecostal power of the spirit. 42:13 Okay, check this out. 42:15 Based on the conversation where we ended, I'm just gonna read 42:17 Romans chapter 9, here we go, verse 30, what should we say, 42:22 then? 42:23 That the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have 42:26 attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith, but 42:31 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained 42:34 to the law of righteousness. 42:36 Why? 42:37 Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the 42:40 works of the law, for they stumbled at that stumbling 42:42 stone. 42:44 That is, that's the theology behind Matthew 8. 42:48 >>TY: Yeah, the centurion's experience is here described in 42:51 theological term. 42:52 >>DAVID: That's right, that is the very point that he's making, 42:54 and I tell you 42:56 -- >>JEFFREY: They basically lost the plot, basically. 42:57 >>DAVID: They lost the 42:58 -- >>TY: And somebody else was getting the plot. 43:00 >>JEFFREY: Yeah. 43:01 >>DAVID: Your exchange, your exchange, your exchange. 43:03 James ended with the Cyrophanician woman and I love 43:05 that and I love the woman at the well. 43:07 The Samaritan woman. 43:08 The disciples are like, you know, they come back, what are 43:10 you, what are you doing? 43:12 Even the woman was confused, hey, can I have a drink? 43:14 And what I love about that is, he doesn't say, can I get you a 43:17 drink? 43:18 Because she would've said, no thank you, no thank you. 43:21 >>TY: I'm good, she wouldn't have served, he's a man, she's a 43:24 woman, I have to, sure, I will. 43:25 >>DAVID: I don't, no 43:27 -- >>TY: I think he wanted a favor from her in order to make 43:29 -- >>DAVID: If he would've said, can I get you a drink, that 43:33 conversation would've been over in 5 seconds, because she 43:35 would've said, no thank you. 43:36 He gives her the opportunity to, he trusts her, he reposes trust, 43:41 gives her the opportunity to serve. 43:43 She's taken aback. 43:44 >>TY: Why would you want something from my hand? 43:46 >>DAVID: Why are you asking, I'm a Samaritan, you're a Jew, but 43:48 here's my point. 43:49 When the story unfolds, Jesus gives to this woman, as you 43:54 mentioned, James, not only a Samaritan, ugh, you know, a 43:57 Samaritan, spit when you say it, a woman who had been married 44:00 repeatedly, and Jesus is like, a woman, the one you're with now, 44:03 not even your husband, he gives the fullest disclosure of who he 44:08 is, she says, we know that when Messiah comes, he'll sort all 44:11 this. 44:11 He said, oh, man, can you see this? 44:14 Sister, that's me. 44:19 The pot is like, you know, I love this story, Jesus is 44:24 planting, and all the while, the disciples, and I feel like, I'm 44:28 this way, just befuddled and just, uh, what? 44:31 Huh, what's going on? 44:33 You know, just not getting it. 44:35 Even on the day of Pentecost, coming down, Peter's gonna get 44:38 this vision, you know, it's just like, these guys were slow to, 44:40 they were so parochial, they couldn't see the bigger, are we 44:45 that way? 44:46 >>JAMES: David, I know the point you're making here. 44:48 Why did Jesus tell her and no one else that he was the 44:53 Messiah? 44:54 Because she was willing 44:57 -- >>DAVID: She could hear it. 44:58 >>JAMES: She could hear it, she could receive it. 44:59 He couldn't tell, not that he didn't want to. 45:01 >>DAVID: But they would ask him sometimes, they would say, you 45:03 tell us if you're the Messiah. 45:04 Let me ask you a question, that baptism of John, was that? 45:07 >>JEFFREY: But with her, he seems to have freedom to just 45:09 -- [inaudible chatter] 45:11 >>DAVID: Even though she's a sinner. 45:12 >>JEFFREY: He sees something in her. 45:14 >>DAVID: She's a sinner and she's a woman and she's a 45:16 Samaritan, and yet, there's this 45:17 -- >>TY: She's open. 45:18 Somebody's gotta break out Romans 2. 45:20 >>DAVID: We're in Romans. 45:21 Let's go. 45:23 >>TY: Romans 2 is a scripture that we all have on the table 45:27 all the time. 45:29 Who's gonna do it. 45:30 >>DAVID: You. 45:31 >>TY: Oh, Romans chapter 2, this is fascinating, the Apostle Paul 45:34 is here, explaining something that, in a very nice way, 45:39 summarizes what we're talking about. 45:40 >>DAVID: I hope the people that are listening into this 45:41 conversation will get their bibles out and open to Romans 45:44 chapter 2. 45:45 This verse liberated me, this verse created a context in which 45:49 I could become a Christian, this passage. 45:51 >>TY: Really? 45:52 >>DAVID: For me. 45:52 >>TY: You break it down. 45:53 >>DAVID: No, no, no, no, no, I wanna hear it. 45:54 >>TY: Okay, I'll read it and you tell me what this says. 45:55 >>DAVID: I'll worship, you preach. 45:56 >>TY: Okay. 45:57 For, verse 14, for when Gentiles, who do not have the 46:01 law, by nature, do the things in the law, these, although not 46:08 having the law, are a law to themselves, verse 15, who show 46:13 the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience 46:16 also bearing witness, and between themselves, their 46:21 thoughts accusing or else excusing them. 46:24 This is astounding. 46:25 >>JEFFREY: And it's a passage regarding morality in a sense. 46:28 >>DAVID: And it's a passage regarding the judgement, verse 46:29 16, in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, by 46:31 Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 46:33 >>JEFFREY: I like the fact that the word nature's in verse 14. 46:36 >>TY: By nature. 46:37 >>JEFFREY: Yeah. 46:37 >>TY: That's right. 46:39 So, in other words, this is referring back, by the way, to 46:41 chapter 1, verse 19, where Paul had earlier said that what may 46:47 be known of God is manifest in them. 46:50 Well, here, when we come to chapter 2, the in them part is 46:52 by nature. 46:53 It's by nature, in other words, what we've said previously in 46:57 the conversation, there's moral activity inside of them, but 47:00 this moral activity is a transcendent morality that first 47:06 exists in God. 47:07 He then makes human beings in his image, that image is lost, 47:12 but 47:14 -- >>DAVID: It's compromised. 47:15 >>TY: Yeah, it's compromised, and remnants of that moral image 47:18 still reside in the human heart in a compromised form. 47:22 So, we're not moral by evolutionary process, we're 47:25 moral by design. 47:26 We're moral by design. 47:28 >>JEFFREY: I love how this acknowledges, though, the bible 47:32 itself acknowledges that there is an intuitive, innate 47:36 morality, which is where the evolutionists would take off 47:40 from. 47:41 >>TY: And this scripture says that when you violate it, when 47:43 you violate your nature 47:45 -- >>DAVID: Your conscience accuses you. 47:46 >>TY: Your conscience accuses you. 47:47 >>DAVID: Your own conscience accuses you. 47:49 >>TY: Yeah, you shouldn't have done that, you lay on your bed 47:51 at night. 47:52 You haven't necessarily, these people haven't read the bible, 47:54 they don't have the 10 Commandments, they lay on their 47:57 bed at night, and they think, why did I do that today? 47:59 Their conscience is, but also, he says, simultaneously, when 48:03 you do what's right, your conscience affirms you. 48:05 >>DAVID: Have you heard of the baby lab? 48:08 It's called, I think it's just called the baby lab, I think 48:12 it's located at Yale University. 48:13 I just read a synopsis of a paper. 48:15 They're constantly studying the development of human behavior 48:18 there. 48:20 And I just read a paper recently that was sent by a friend of 48:22 mine, Dr. Sean Pitman, and they showed that this idea that 48:27 children are blank moral slates and you can just implant any old 48:30 ideal, like, they're a blank hard drive, and you just put any 48:33 software in. 48:33 [inaudible chatter] 48:35 >>TY: Can't happen. 48:35 >>DAVID: Can't happen. 48:36 >>TY: Can't happen. 48:37 >>DAVID: They show that children from the age of as young as 2 48:39 already have an innate, in born sense of right and wrong, of 48:44 morality. 48:45 Now, you can squelch that. 48:46 You can become a person over years of silencing that voice 48:51 and abusing your own conscience and you can create a situation 48:55 where you are devoid of a conscience. 48:57 >>JEFFREY: But that's the point, you would have to initiate that, 48:59 you wouldn't naturally do that. 49:00 >>TY: And you would have to persist in it. 49:01 >>JEFFREY: That's hard work. 49:03 It's hard work to suppress your moral compass. 49:05 >>DAVID: And the converse is also true. 49:07 As you become a sensitive person and you respond to people with 49:10 empathy and kindness and compassion and you know, 49:12 whatever you've done unto one of the least of these, you know, 49:14 you clothed me, you visited me, you fed me, then we become 49:17 increasingly in tuned to moral situations around us. 49:21 That's one of the things I'll just be straight up, Ty, I love 49:23 about you. 49:25 I love all the guys here, but I've heard you, in repeated 49:26 situations, Ty, difficult situations in meetings and board 49:29 meetings or whatever, you say, hey, wait a minute, how does 49:33 this, how does this situation look from their perspective, 49:36 there's this like, there's this justice element, and I love 49:39 that. 49:40 There have been times in meetings where you have brought 49:42 things that even me, as a gospel preacher, I missed that. 49:46 I missed, there's a moral sensitivity that God has given 49:48 you, you know, and I love that. 49:50 I pray that God'll give me a similarly acute, and not that 49:53 all of us don't have it, but I've just noticed it in you a 49:56 number of times, but in the same way that that's the case, well, 49:59 the opposite could be, you can get to the place where you just 50:02 pull out a gun and just... 50:03 >>TY: That's called psychopathy. 50:05 >>JAMES: Let me share this statement real quick, just to 50:08 firm up what we're talking about Education of Age, page 29, 50:11 Christ is the light which lighteneth every man that comes 50:14 into the world, that's a verse that we've been looking at quite 50:16 a bit in 1 John 1:9. 50:17 >>TY: John 1:9. 50:18 >>JAMES: John 1:9, thank you. 50:20 As through Christ, every human being has life, so also, through 50:24 him, every soul receives 50:29 -- >>DAVID: The glasses come out. 50:30 >>JAMES: Not only intellectual, I've been putting it off for a 50:35 long time. 50:36 I waited until my wife got them and then I said, okay. 50:37 Not only intellectual, but spiritual power, a perception of 50:42 right, a desire for goodness exists in every heart. 50:45 Why? 50:46 Because Christ is the light that lightens every man that comes 50:48 into the world. 50:49 But against these principles, there is struggling, there is 50:54 struggling and antagonistic power. 50:57 The result of the eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good 51:00 and Evil is manifest in every man's experience, there is, in 51:02 his nature, a bend to evil, a force which, unaided, he cannot 51:05 resist. 51:06 >>DAVID: Which unaided he can't resist. 51:07 >>JAMES: To withstand this force, to retain that idea which 51:09 is most, in his inmost soul, he accepts as alone worthy, he can 51:15 find help in but one power, and that power is Christ. 51:17 >>TY: Just one quick bit of advice and secret you don't know 51:22 about, parenthetical statement. 51:23 On the iPad, you can make the type bigger so you don't have to 51:26 wear the glasses. 51:27 >>JAMES: I know, I just don't know how to do it. 51:28 I'm not able to do that right this second. 51:31 [inaudible chatter] 51:34 >>DAVID: I'm just gonna quickly read, because you started into 51:36 verse 14, I'm just gonna quickly read verses 11, 12, and 13, 51:38 because they really set the argument up. 51:40 Verse 11, there is no partiality with God. 51:43 Verse 12, for as many as have sinned without the law, without 51:46 the written code that God gave to the Jews, through Moses, they 51:50 will perish without the law, and as many as have sinned within 51:52 the law, they will be judged by the law. 51:54 For not the hearers of the law, the writings of Moses in the Old 51:57 Testament, are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law 52:01 will be just, and then he begins his argument with the Gentiles. 52:04 >>JAMES: Quick question, Ty, how do I make the type in my bible 52:07 bigger so I don't need my glasses? 52:08 >>TY: Doesn't work that way, you gotta buy a large print bible 52:10 for grandpas. 52:11 >>DAVID: It looks like you're going somewhere. 52:13 >>TY: Well, this is connected but it's a little bit of a 52:18 different way to go, and I think it's really a helpful thing to 52:22 go back to the Old Testament, to a prophecy in Isaiah 49 that is 52:28 about the coming Messiah, the one that we have in this 52:32 conversation and the previous conversation spoken of as the 52:35 word, the voice, the light. 52:38 This Jesus is foretold in Isaiah 49, and as the prophecy is given 52:47 in verse 1, it says, listen, oh coastlands to me. 52:51 Me, Jesus, the Messiah. 52:53 Listen, oh coastlands, to me and take heed you peoples from afar. 52:58 In other words, outside of the perimeters of Israel. 53:02 Okay, the Gentile world is being addressed here, okay? 53:06 Listen. 53:07 And then, it goes on to basically say, the Messiah 53:09 that's coming, the Savior that's coming, he is not just for the 53:13 Jews, he's not just for Israelites, he's for, and 53:18 there's all these different groups of people, people who 53:21 didn't have an islands and coastlands that are described. 53:24 And then, interestingly enough, when you come all the way down 53:27 to verse 12, surely, these shall come from afar. 53:32 Remember Jesus said, they shall come from the east and the west, 53:35 okay, surely, these shall come from afar, look, those from the 53:39 north and the west and these from the land of Sinem, the land 53:44 of Sinem. 53:45 Now, that's a very strange word that most people aren't familiar 53:47 with, but Sinem is the ancient word for China or basically 53:52 Asia. 53:53 The word Sinem refers to China. 53:56 So, today, in our modern language, you may hear on the 54:00 news about American Sino talks. 54:03 S-I-N-O. 54:05 Sino talks. 54:05 Well, Sino refers to China. 54:08 Or, you look up in the dictionary, sinology. 54:10 S-I-nology, sinology, it is the study of things Chinese. 54:14 Sinem refers directly to the people of China and what this 54:19 scripture is basically saying, you guys, well, two things here, 54:23 number one, don't you find it fascinating that China is 54:27 referenced in scripture as a people group, as a nation that 54:32 the Messiah has particular interest in. 54:34 Jesus loves the people of these far off lands outside of Israel, 54:40 and don't you find it interesting, secondly, that the 54:44 prophecy is basically saying that when this Messiah comes, 54:47 when this Savior comes, he's not just for one people group, he's 54:51 for everybody. 54:52 Jesus is the one who is the savior of all mankind and he's 54:57 coming for everybody. 54:59 >>DAVID: The New Testament calls him that, the Savior of the 55:00 world. 55:01 >>TY: That's right. 55:02 Powerful, love that prophecy. 55:03 >>JAMES: Okay, Psalms 87. 55:05 This is one that I think is powerful, too, and it just says 55:08 the same thing 55:09 -- >>DAVID: Speak into the camera, James, please. 55:11 >>JAMES: Psalm 87, you wanna see my glasses, don't you? 55:14 >>DAVID: Wanna see the glasses. 55:15 >>JAMES: His foundation's in the holy mountains, the Lord loves 55:18 the gates of Zion more than all of the dwellings of Jacob. 55:21 Glorious things are spoken of thee, oh city of God, see verse 55:24 4, I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know 55:30 me. 55:31 Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia, this man was born 55:34 there. 55:35 And of Zion it shall be said, this man was born in her, and 55:38 the highest himself shall establish her. 55:40 The Lord, verse 6, shall count, when he writes up the people, 55:44 that this man was born there. 55:45 Selah. 55:46 Think about this. 55:47 And here's the point that I get out of this, because when Ty was 55:49 reading those verses, I was thinking, that is really 55:51 incredible, verse 6 said, I'll be a light to the Gentiles. 55:54 And what God does in the context of this is he takes into 55:58 consideration where we were born, Rahab, where she was born, 56:02 the Babylonian, where he was born, the Ethiopian, where he 56:04 was born. 56:05 You were born in Zion. 56:07 Jesus comes and he looks at the Samaritan woman and he looks at 56:11 the Cyrophanician woman, and he says, wow, this is, these 56:13 people, from the east to the west, they're gonna come. 56:15 God takes him, so we say, well, they didn't know the law, they 56:19 didn't know the name of Jesus, this is what we've been talking 56:20 about. 56:21 They didn't know the X, Ys, and the Zs of theology, but God 56:24 doesn't look at it that way. 56:25 He considers where they're born, he considers light they've been 56:28 given, and whether their conscience is bearing witness 56:31 and they are becoming a law unto themselves, and that context, 56:34 they are judged savable. 56:37 >>JEFFREY: So, do we need God to be moral? 56:40 >>DAVID: You have to read James 1:17. 56:42 >>JEFFREY: That was my setup for that. 56:45 >>DAVID: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 56:46 I'm sorry. 56:47 >>JEFFREY: That was the setup. 56:48 >>TY: Well, you only have a minute and 30 seconds so you 56:50 better set it up and read, buddy. 56:51 >>DAVID: He's like doing this Latin slow thing. 56:54 >>JEFFREY: Every good gift, James 1:17, and every perfect 56:58 gift is from above and comes down from the Father of lights, 57:02 with whom there's no variation or shadow of turning. 57:04 Every good gift comes from above. 57:06 If morality is good, every good thing that anybody does, whether 57:11 they are a believer or a nonbeliever, whether they 57:14 profess the name of Jesus, whether they don't, whether 57:17 they're in church, whether they're out, whether they love 57:19 religion, whether they hate religion. 57:20 Every good thing that we do is a gift that's extended from the 57:24 Father and we're just a conduit through which it is expressed in 57:26 this world, right? 57:27 So, I think the answer to the question is yes, we need God in 57:33 order to be moral in the sense that morality is grounded, it's 57:38 not something that God speaks and invents, it's grounded in 57:41 his very character. 57:42 >>DAVID: Sense of Grace, page 26, Christ is the source of 57:46 every right impulse. 57:47 >>TY: Isn't that something? 57:49 >>DAVID: He's the one. 57:50 Every good gift, I love the way you did that, if morality is 57:53 good... 57:54 >>JEFFREY: It comes from God. 57:55 >>JAMES: And that's what it means when he says that I am the 57:57 way, the truth, and the life. 57:57 >>JEFFREY: Amen. 57:58 >>DAVID: Which is a funny way to spin that text around. 58:01 >>TY: Yeah, he's the way, the truth, and the life in the 58:05 larger sense that he is always the way, the truth, and the 58:11 life, to anybody who encounters the way, the truth, and the life 58:14 in any way they encounter the way, the truth, and the life. 58:18 >>JEFFREY: That's good. 58:19 [Music] 58:29 [Music] |
Revised 2016-04-14