[Music]
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[Music]
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our last conversation.
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>>DAVID: So much
energy we blew a light.
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>>TY: Blew a light, but we also
just couldn't stop and we felt
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like we were hurrying through
a lot of very powerful biblical
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material, so we pretty much
decided we need to just continue
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on with the conversation where
we left off and it segues nicely
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into another one of the
questions that we just wanted to
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put forth, and that is do we
need God in order to be moral?
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Now, the reason we have this
question on the table, there's a
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background to it.
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It might be worded here in a way
that some people are thinking,
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well, what in the world does
that have to, I don't, that's
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not a question
that pops into my mind.
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But if you pay attention to some
of the conversations that are
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going on among atheists,
you have people like Richard
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Dawkins, people like Sam Harris
and various others, highly
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educated scientists who are
also atheists who are saying, we
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don't need God to be moral,
we're moral, and I'm an atheist
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and I'm not moral, I mean, I'm
moral, excuse me, I don't need
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God because
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-- >>DAVID: I don't need
the big policeman in the sky.
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>>TY: Yeah, I don't need
arbitrary rules, I'm in an
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evolutionary process that has
given me the development of a
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moral sense.
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I have morals
and I'm an atheist.
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So, that's where the question
comes from, but it goes all
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kinds of other places, I think,
when we look at scripture.
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So, do we need God to be moral?
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I mean, I'm just putting
the question straight to you.
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>>DAVID: Okay, let me, before
you, you put the question right
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to, we could also say this isn't
just something that's happening
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in the atheistic sort of
academic circles, I hear this
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question as an evangelist.
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I'll have people say to me,
well, why should I go to your
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church or believe in your God.
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I know some of your church
members and I'm a better, I've
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had people say that.
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I know some of the people
in your church, the way they do
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business, the way they whatever,
and they're no better than me.
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>>TY: Well, let's 'fess up.
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>>DAVID: They were
actually talking about you, Ty.
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[Laughter]
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>>TY: The truth is, if we stop
and we pay attention, we've all
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had friends or acquaintances
that were unbelievers who were
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decent people.
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>>DAVID: Better people than me.
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>>TY: People who relate
to their family with respect.
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People who are doing community
service, people who are
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-- >>DAVID:
Faithful to their spouse.
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>>TY: Yeah, I know people who
are atheist who've given their
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whole lives to basically
counteracting the sex slave
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trade.
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They've given themselves to
a good moral cause because they
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have a very high
sense of justice.
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The question is, is that high
sense of justice something that
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developed through
the process of evolution?
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Or is that high sense of justice
and the difference between right
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and wrong something that
God originally created when he
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engineered the human being and
then it was compromised through
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what the bible describes as the
fall, but there's still vestiges
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of that sense of morality
in every human heart and God is
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leveraging it, he's saying, hey,
you know the difference between
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right and wrong, not because
you evolved this moral sense but
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because you were created in
my moral image and it's still
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there.
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You don't even acknowledge me,
you don't believe in me, but the
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fact is, I created you in such a
way that you think that way, you
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feel that way.
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>>DAVID: You can't, like the
psalmist said, if I ascend into
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heaven, he's there, if I
descend, God is ubiquitous, he's
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pervasive, he's inescapable.
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>>TY: That's right.
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>>DAVID: Just to sort of put
some personal David Asscherick
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sort of vulnerability on this,
one of the things that I've
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wrestled with in my life is that
I didn't, okay, I didn't have a
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strong father
figure early in my life.
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It wasn't until I was adopted
the second time that I really
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had a dad.
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Prior to that, when I was about
12 years old, prior to that, the
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main father figure in
my life was my grandfather.
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Maybe the greatest man I've ever
met, maybe the best, most moral,
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kind, compassionate man I've
ever met, his name was Charles
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Oakley Atkins, my middle name is
Charles, named after him, David
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Charles.
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My brother's
Robert Oakley Atkins.
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And he was a big, wonderful,
compassionate but strong man.
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And his nickname,
everybody called him Oak.
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Isn't that great?
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His name was Oakley, and he was
the oak of the family, I mean,
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he just, there was a solidity to
him, he was an anchor, and oh, I
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could wax out for, one of the
greatest honors of my life was
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to preach my grandfather's,
the homily at my grandfather's
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funeral.
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So, here's the
thing with my grandfather.
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After I became a believer he,
let's see, I was 23, he would've
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passed away about 4 years later.
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So, he would've known me as
a believer, he would've known
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about my experience, becoming a
follower of Jesus, going from a
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young kid who just wanted to be
a professional skateboarder to
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this sort of, what he would've
viewed as a very radical
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transition, which
my whole family did.
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But my grandfather, unlike my
grandmother, who was an overtly
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Christian person, Presbyterian,
loved the Lord, loved God,
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Grandpa was, I wouldn't say he
was ambivalent about religion, I
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think that actually,
that is what I would say.
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He wasn't hostile,
but he was ambivalent.
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He wasn't, he never had anything
negative to say, but he was, he
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didn't go to church, he probably
couldn't have found any text in
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the bible, but this man was one
of, like I said, the best men
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I've ever met, and later in my
life, later in my conversion, I
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should say, toward the end
of his life, when my wife and I,
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Violeta, would go to visit, he
was getting old, now this would
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be a year or two before he
passed away, and we would sing
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to my grandparents.
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My grandparents loved
when Violeta and I would sing
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harmonies, I would play the
guitar, and without exception,
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without exception, when we would
play the song Amazing Grace, my
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grandfather, in his stoic,
wonderful, he would've been
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almost 90 years old at this
time, this father, this male
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figure in my life, he would
just, tears would just start to
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come out of the corners of
his eyes, you could just see it.
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And my grandfather passed away,
so far as I'm aware, never made
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a confession of Christ or
any, what we would call verbal,
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outward, clearly Christian
indication of faith and I don't
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know, his case is in God's
hands, I have complete peace
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about that.
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I know that God would not
withhold salvation from anybody
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that he could save.
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But the point is, is that
whether or not my grandfather,
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that's not the question I'm
addressing, whether or not he's
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saved or not.
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The point is is that this was
a man who was Christian in every
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seemingly, in terms of
the conduct, but as far as the
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content, I think that's
a good way of saying it.
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His theological content
would've been nonexistent.
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His conduct?
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Absolutely Christian.
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So, where does that come from?
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Is that an evolutionary process?
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Is that, no, that is the spirit
of God, the revelation of Christ
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to my grandfather, to every
human being, wooing him toward
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truth.
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Wooing him.
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>>JEFFREY: We were reading
in John 1, where it says that he
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lights every man that
comes into the world, right?
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>>DAVID: So, my grandfather,
here's the question, do we need,
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how did we say it?
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Do we need God in
order to be moral?
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The answer is yes, but not
for the reasons that some people
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think.
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>>TY: Or not in the way.
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>>DAVID: Not in the way.
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>>JEFFREY: Not in the sense that
you need to be a churchgoing,
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bible believing Christian in
order to do moral acts, but in
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the sense that morality, in
that sense, flows from the very
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person of God.
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So, if you were to remove God
out of the picture, there would
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be no such thing as this
intuitive moral compass that we
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all have.
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>>JAMES: Let's look at a bible
verse, and there's a number of
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bible verses, I think, that
we can look at, but one of them
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that I think about
is in Titus chapter 2.
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>>DAVID: Oh, I got that written
down here, what are you doing?
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>>JAMES: Titus
chapter 2 and verse 11.
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>>DAVID: Quit
looking at my paper.
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>>JAMES: You had a long spiel
there, so I gotta jump in there.
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>>JEFFREY: You got hijacked.
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>>DAVID: Thank you for letting
me open my heart to you about my
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grandfather.
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>>JAMES: No, that was
beautiful, we loved it.
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Titus 2, verse 11, and this is
one of a number of bible verses,
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we looked at a couple, but I
think it would be really good
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for us to just note a few more,
that talk about the big picture,
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as we talked about earlier, the
macro picture, how God pervades
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all humanity, all society,
all culture, how God is working
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through his Holy Spirit, you
know, Romans, Paul says, those
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who do not have the spirit of
Christ are none of his, and you
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were talking about how
your grandpa has the spirit of
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Christ.
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Okay, he doesn't know
Christ, but he has the spirit.
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And Daniel, again, we're
going back to the Old Testament,
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Daniel had the spirit of the
living God, and heathen people
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knew that.
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Darius knew it, the mother
of Belshazzar knew it, you know,
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there's this man, in him there's
the spirit of the living God.
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>>DAVID: The spirit of the
living God, that's right, that's
00:09:08.74\00:09:10.15
a different kind of guy.
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>>JAMES: And so, in Titus
chapter 2 and verse 11, it says,
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for the grace of God that brings
salvation has appeared to all
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men, and now, here's what
he goes on to say, teaching us,
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that deny ungodliness and
worldly lust, we should live
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soberly, righteously, and
godly in this present world.
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Okay, so that's what happened
to your grandpa, that's what's
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happening in this world
today, in spite of, now, we say,
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without Christians, without
evangelists, without, sometimes,
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we have to say, in spite of, in
spite of Christians, in spite of
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the way we come across and the
way we represent God, in spite
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of us saying, if you haven't
confessed Jesus Christ, you
00:09:48.35\00:09:51.35
can't be saved, in
spite of us saying that.
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>>TY: There's a verse, and
I don't know where it is, that
00:09:53.05\00:09:55.46
says the Lord
knows those who are his.
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>>JAMES: That's in Timothy.
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>>TY: Okay, so the Lord is
looking down from his vantage
00:10:00.10\00:10:03.63
point where he sees what's going
on in people's hearts and he
00:10:03.63\00:10:10.04
knows those that are
his, whereas, from our limited
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perspective, our judgement is
skewed and we might look and we
00:10:14.71\00:10:19.18
might think that we've picked
out who belong to the Lord and
00:10:19.18\00:10:23.59
who don't belong to the Lord,
and we say, those are the wheat,
00:10:23.59\00:10:26.69
those are the tariffs, we think
we know, but our judgement is
00:10:26.69\00:10:31.09
skewed, so I look at what
you've just described about your
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grandfather and my heart was
just moved, David, and I'll tell
00:10:34.10\00:10:38.97
you why.
00:10:38.97\00:10:40.10
Not just because you're my
friend and I love you and I
00:10:40.10\00:10:43.81
think that it's a beautiful
thing that brings my heart joy
00:10:43.81\00:10:46.61
that you had that
person in your life.
00:10:46.61\00:10:50.21
That moves me on one level, but
on another level, when you're
00:10:50.21\00:10:53.72
describing that, it comes to my
mind, well, wait a minute, the
00:10:53.72\00:10:57.69
Lord is looking down on the
situation and let's just say, if
00:10:57.69\00:11:02.36
I were to go to your grandfather
and anybody else, all kinds of
00:11:02.36\00:11:06.76
different people in the world,
and take religious language out
00:11:06.76\00:11:11.77
of the equation, so to
speak, and have, imagine this
00:11:11.77\00:11:14.94
conversation with Oak.
00:11:14.94\00:11:16.44
What are your opinions about
justice, treating people fairly?
00:11:16.44\00:11:21.64
Yep, I agree, that's how, that's
what I say, what do you think
00:11:21.64\00:11:25.45
about people who are down and
out and they're marginalized and
00:11:25.45\00:11:28.68
they just don't have enough, but
you have a little more and you
00:11:28.68\00:11:32.99
have an opportunity to help
them, what would your response
00:11:32.99\00:11:35.76
be?
00:11:35.76\00:11:36.52
>>DAVID: Yeah,
he lived that way.
00:11:36.52\00:11:37.19
>>TY: Yeah, he lived that way.
00:11:37.19\00:11:38.36
Hey, what's your opinion
about humility versus arrogance?
00:11:38.36\00:11:41.93
I like the humility thing, I
don't like the arrogance thing.
00:11:41.93\00:11:45.73
Do you see where
I'm going with this?
00:11:45.73\00:11:46.70
>>DAVID: Absolutely.
00:11:46.70\00:11:47.90
>>TY: You're describing the
character of Jesus without using
00:11:47.90\00:11:53.54
the name and Oak
is aligned with Jesus.
00:11:53.54\00:11:57.91
>>JEFFREY: He recognized
that that's the very thing.
00:11:57.91\00:12:01.68
>>TY: Yeah, he's
aligned with Jesus.
00:12:01.68\00:12:02.98
Do you see how that
works or am I stretching this?
00:12:02.98\00:12:06.29
>>DAVID: I don't
think you're stretching it.
00:12:06.29\00:12:07.69
>>TY: I've met unbelievers,
call them atheist, agnostic,
00:12:07.69\00:12:13.80
whatever, they don't believe
in God or the bible, who are
00:12:13.80\00:12:20.00
atheists on just grounds.
00:12:20.00\00:12:23.91
>>DAVID: Absolutely.
00:12:23.91\00:12:25.04
People are rejecting
God for the right reasons.
00:12:25.04\00:12:26.54
>>TY: Rejecting God for
the right reasons because of
00:12:26.54\00:12:28.74
misrepresentations of God.
00:12:28.74\00:12:30.75
So, when I say to you or you say
to me or anybody in our world,
00:12:30.75\00:12:34.68
in our culture says, I believe
in God, we can't assume that
00:12:34.68\00:12:40.89
what they mean when they say,
I believe in God, is precisely
00:12:40.89\00:12:45.49
what you mean when you
say you believe in God.
00:12:45.49\00:12:47.96
We could be holding, in our
minds, two entirely different
00:12:47.96\00:12:53.23
pictures of what is meant, what
is in contained in the word God.
00:12:53.23\00:12:59.94
>>DAVID: And the word belief.
00:12:59.94\00:13:01.24
>>TY: And there are some people
who say, I don't believe in God,
00:13:01.24\00:13:03.75
and if you said to them,
describe that, what you don't
00:13:03.75\00:13:09.05
believe in, you might turn
around, Jeffrey, and say, well,
00:13:09.05\00:13:11.62
actually, I don't believe in
that, either, so I share your
00:13:11.62\00:13:14.56
atheism in the sense that I
reject that picture of God that
00:13:14.56\00:13:19.16
I find is as repulsive
and untenable as you do.
00:13:19.16\00:13:22.13
Then, they might turn around and
say, well, that's a new thought,
00:13:22.13\00:13:25.53
could you describe for me
the God you do believe in?
00:13:25.53\00:13:28.24
And when you begin to describe
things like compassion and mercy
00:13:28.24\00:13:31.64
and justice, yeah, they might
say, well, I believe in all
00:13:31.64\00:13:34.74
that.
00:13:34.74\00:13:35.94
>>JEFFREY: So, basically, you're
saying we have to define our
00:13:35.94\00:13:38.01
terms to have any
intelligent conversation.
00:13:38.01\00:13:40.25
>>DAVID: We shouldn't assume.
00:13:40.25\00:13:41.48
>>TY: And we need to recognize,
I think, what we're trying to
00:13:41.48\00:13:45.05
say is that all of this moral
activity that goes outside of
00:13:45.05\00:13:49.92
the borders of religion and is
pervasive throughout the world
00:13:49.92\00:13:53.36
and trying to creep into every
human heart, all of that moral
00:13:53.36\00:13:56.83
sense is, in fact,
from God, as the author of
00:13:56.83\00:14:00.37
-- >>DAVID: By his spirit.
00:14:00.37\00:14:02.77
[inaudible chatter]
00:14:02.77\00:14:05.01
>>TY: It's not the product
of evolutionary advancement, no?
00:14:05.01\00:14:09.78
>>DAVID: Evolution, I don't
even understand, I've heard the
00:14:09.78\00:14:12.41
arguments, I don't see how the
evolutionary process, Darwinian
00:14:12.41\00:14:16.12
process can even begin to
account for what we view as
00:14:16.12\00:14:20.12
morality.
00:14:20.12\00:14:21.29
>>JEFFREY: I have a story
on that I wanna share after the
00:14:21.29\00:14:22.26
break.
00:14:22.26\00:14:23.22
>>TY: You tell that
story right after the break.
00:14:23.22\00:14:25.73
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[Music]
00:16:22.14\00:16:29.32
[Music]
00:16:29.32\00:16:30.09
ed about the reality that
00:16:30.55\00:16:32.89
outside of religion, there's
people that properly represent
00:16:32.89\00:16:37.43
religion, or God's character,
and yet, inside religion,
00:16:37.43\00:16:41.36
there's people that
totally get it all wrong.
00:16:41.36\00:16:43.50
And just before we took the last
break, somebody mentioned, or
00:16:43.50\00:16:48.30
kinda reaffirmed the fact
that how do we get morality?
00:16:48.30\00:16:51.91
And somebody said that, it can't
come from evolution, can it?
00:16:51.91\00:16:55.88
And that statement reminded
me of an experience I had on a
00:16:55.88\00:16:59.48
plane.
00:16:59.48\00:17:00.75
I was flying from Europe back
to the states and I was sitting
00:17:00.75\00:17:04.42
next to this guy and we started
small talk, and he asked me,
00:17:04.42\00:17:09.06
hey, what are you
doing, where are you going?
00:17:09.06\00:17:10.59
And I mentioned that I just came
from a conference and he said,
00:17:10.59\00:17:12.63
what's the conference about?
00:17:12.63\00:17:13.86
And every time somebody asks
me that question on a plane, I'm
00:17:13.86\00:17:15.70
always, oh, man, because I'm
gonna say, I came from a bible
00:17:15.70\00:17:18.40
conference where I was teaching
the bible, and it's, you know,
00:17:18.40\00:17:21.84
then you get into religion, and
when I said that, the guy was
00:17:21.84\00:17:25.24
like, ugh, I'm an atheist.
00:17:25.24\00:17:27.04
And so, we got
into this conversation.
00:17:27.04\00:17:28.98
>>JAMES: That's how he said it?
00:17:28.98\00:17:30.08
Just like that?
00:17:30.08\00:17:30.71
Ugh.
00:17:30.71\00:17:31.91
>>JEFFREY: Through the course
of the conversation, literally,
00:17:31.91\00:17:33.95
that's how he responded.
00:17:33.95\00:17:35.12
Through the course of the
conversation, we got into some
00:17:35.12\00:17:37.12
deep, philosophical stuff
and this issue of morality, this
00:17:37.12\00:17:40.46
very question we're
talking about now came up.
00:17:40.46\00:17:43.39
Do we need God to be moral?
00:17:43.39\00:17:46.53
And I was basically sharing,
and I wanna know if you guys
00:17:46.53\00:17:49.40
resonate with this, if
this is even a good idea.
00:17:49.40\00:17:51.40
I was sharing with him
the impossibility of us even
00:17:51.40\00:17:56.77
believing in morality if God
is out of the picture, right?
00:17:56.77\00:18:00.34
I was arguing that we need
God for morality and the basic
00:18:00.34\00:18:04.75
premise of his rebuttal to me
was that morality doesn't come
00:18:04.75\00:18:07.62
from God, morality develops
through the evolutionary process
00:18:07.62\00:18:12.62
and the way that that's
manifested is this thing called
00:18:12.62\00:18:15.79
the herd instinct.
00:18:15.79\00:18:16.96
You guys have heard about it,
of course, the herd instinct.
00:18:16.96\00:18:18.69
>>DAVID: We've heard
of the herd instinct.
00:18:18.69\00:18:20.20
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, you've heard
of the herd instinct, right?
00:18:20.20\00:18:22.06
So, basically, at some point
in history, we were all cavemen,
00:18:22.06\00:18:24.57
cavewomen, and we figured
out that there are certain
00:18:24.57\00:18:28.20
behavioral patterns
that are beneficial for the
00:18:28.20\00:18:31.67
-- >>TY: Herd.
00:18:31.67\00:18:32.47
>>JEFFREY:
00:18:32.47\00:18:33.58
--for the herd, right,
for society, and that's how we
00:18:33.58\00:18:35.18
basically evolved.
00:18:35.18\00:18:36.38
So, we figured out that it's
not good to steal, because if I
00:18:36.38\00:18:39.38
steal from Ty, then Ty is gonna
steal from me and then we're
00:18:39.38\00:18:42.75
gonna kill each other, so we
figured out, maybe we should not
00:18:42.75\00:18:45.82
steal, and that's how morality,
through time, anyway, so, in
00:18:45.82\00:18:49.09
that course of that
conversation, he basically said
00:18:49.09\00:18:54.23
that society
determines morality.
00:18:54.23\00:18:56.06
We don't need God,
society determines morality.
00:18:56.06\00:18:58.17
And I posed a question.
00:18:58.17\00:18:59.27
I said, have there been
societies where people believe
00:18:59.27\00:19:05.44
certain things were okay
but that were totally corrupt?
00:19:05.44\00:19:09.14
And I mentioned the classic
example, Nazi Germany, I said,
00:19:09.14\00:19:12.75
you know, 1940s, Nazi Germany,
it was believed and accepted,
00:19:12.75\00:19:17.75
society dictated and taught and
said that it was acceptable to
00:19:17.75\00:19:22.42
kill individuals because of
their ethnic background and so
00:19:22.42\00:19:25.03
forth and so forth.
00:19:25.03\00:19:25.66
I believe that that's wrong.
00:19:25.66\00:19:27.40
Are you saying that because
their society told them that,
00:19:27.40\00:19:32.10
that that's right, or would you
say it was wrong, the Holocaust
00:19:32.10\00:19:36.27
was wrong?
00:19:36.27\00:19:37.64
And the point there is
just, it just revealed a huge
00:19:37.64\00:19:40.41
contradiction.
00:19:40.41\00:19:41.64
He basically thought about
it for a second, I could see his
00:19:41.64\00:19:43.55
thought process, and he realized
that there was a contradiction
00:19:43.55\00:19:45.48
there.
00:19:45.48\00:19:46.58
Because he believed, intuitively
that the Holocaust was
00:19:46.58\00:19:48.75
desperately wicked.
00:19:48.75\00:19:50.85
But this is what he said, he
basically said, in their time,
00:19:50.85\00:19:56.56
and in their society, I don't
have the right to say that that
00:19:56.56\00:19:58.69
was wrong.
00:19:58.69\00:19:59.93
>>TY: Because he's struggling
to be consistent with his logic.
00:19:59.93\00:20:01.66
He feels like he's blocked in.
00:20:01.66\00:20:03.97
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, and to me, that
was just so telling that there
00:20:03.97\00:20:07.47
is, it's very difficult to
arrive at even a foundation for
00:20:07.47\00:20:12.77
morality without God in
the picture and every other
00:20:12.77\00:20:15.58
conceivable replacement,
alternative explanation is
00:20:15.58\00:20:19.35
totally bankrupt, because if
we're counting society, there
00:20:19.35\00:20:21.68
was a time in the United States
of America not too long ago,
00:20:21.68\00:20:25.55
where because of the color
of your skin such and such.
00:20:25.55\00:20:28.66
>>TY: So society was dictating.
00:20:28.66\00:20:30.96
>>JEFFREY: Society, society.
00:20:30.96\00:20:32.66
So, to me, that was just
one example that came to my mind
00:20:32.66\00:20:35.33
where, to remove God out of the
equation and if we're left with
00:20:35.33\00:20:40.94
evolutionary processes and the
development of society, well,
00:20:40.94\00:20:45.07
we're in trouble now, because
now we can't, we can't even
00:20:45.07\00:20:47.88
determine what's right or
wrong because that's up to any
00:20:47.88\00:20:51.78
individual society, which
is totally not true, because
00:20:51.78\00:20:53.88
everybody knows, everybody
watches and views and hears what
00:20:53.88\00:20:57.12
happens in different parts of
the world and we all react to it
00:20:57.12\00:20:59.52
as if there was something
wrong with the morality of that
00:20:59.52\00:21:02.99
society.
00:21:02.99\00:21:04.39
Which, in instance,
we're revealing, we can cast
00:21:04.39\00:21:07.30
judgements on another society
when we feel they're immoral.
00:21:07.30\00:21:10.07
So, it's not true that
morality comes from society.
00:21:10.07\00:21:11.87
>>TY: Well, we could take it
another step and point out that
00:21:11.87\00:21:15.50
evolutionary morality is
fundamentally one step short of
00:21:15.50\00:21:23.71
what we're calling morality
because even in the usage of the
00:21:23.71\00:21:28.95
term moral, the evolutionary
developed morality all thats
00:21:28.95\00:21:33.66
being defined there is a
different, more sophisticated
00:21:33.66\00:21:36.99
level of self-preservation,
or selfishness.
00:21:36.99\00:21:40.23
So, when we use the word
morality, we're talking about an
00:21:40.23\00:21:43.63
altruism that is actually
putting the other first for the
00:21:43.63\00:21:48.37
sake of the other.
00:21:48.37\00:21:50.41
Do you hear that?
00:21:50.41\00:21:51.57
Versus in the evolutionary
morality, I'm putting you first
00:21:51.57\00:21:55.78
to my advantage.
00:21:55.78\00:21:57.85
>>JEFFREY: I'm not stealing from
you for my own benefit so that
00:21:57.85\00:22:02.58
you don't steal from me, as
opposed to it's wrong to do that
00:22:02.58\00:22:04.72
to you.
00:22:04.72\00:22:05.92
>>TY: Yeah, so it's a morality
that is still self-centered,
00:22:05.92\00:22:07.86
it's a morality that is void
if what we call, what the bible
00:22:07.86\00:22:10.79
calls love, it's a morality
that is basically just another
00:22:10.79\00:22:14.83
manifestation of the survival
of the fittest, you know,
00:22:14.83\00:22:18.67
scratching and clawing for the
top spot, but we're scratching
00:22:18.67\00:22:22.80
and clawing at a
more sophisticated level.
00:22:22.80\00:22:25.37
Now, we're wearing suits and
ties, now we're scratching and
00:22:25.37\00:22:29.48
clawing through conversation
and negotiation, but it's not
00:22:29.48\00:22:33.85
morality.
00:22:33.85\00:22:35.02
When the bible talks about
this standard of morality, it's
00:22:35.02\00:22:39.62
describing something that
transcends human culture and
00:22:39.62\00:22:44.26
human cultures are tapping into
it and experiencing it because
00:22:44.26\00:22:49.60
of the way God made us in his
image, and to some degree, we've
00:22:49.60\00:22:52.53
lost it, to a major
degree, we've lost it, but we're
00:22:52.53\00:22:54.90
approaching it, there's a
gravitational pull upon the
00:22:54.90\00:22:59.11
human heart and the human
conscience toward a level of
00:22:59.11\00:23:02.61
morality that is altruistic,
that is goodness for the sake of
00:23:02.61\00:23:07.75
goodness.
00:23:07.75\00:23:08.98
>>JEFFREY: Yeah, there's even
a more fundamental question that
00:23:08.98\00:23:10.85
evolution would not answer,
because science tells us what
00:23:10.85\00:23:14.49
is, but it doesn't tell
us what ought to be, right?
00:23:14.49\00:23:16.99
So, a more fundamental question
would be why should we care
00:23:16.99\00:23:21.26
about the other individual?
00:23:21.26\00:23:22.96
So, from an evolutionary
perspective, somebody might say,
00:23:22.96\00:23:25.83
well, we are moral, we behave
in moral ways because it makes
00:23:25.83\00:23:29.27
society better.
00:23:29.27\00:23:30.47
But a fundamental question would
be, why should I care about
00:23:30.47\00:23:34.91
making society better?
00:23:34.91\00:23:36.14
On the basis of what should I be
interested in, so you just keep
00:23:36.14\00:23:40.15
going in circles and whereas, in
the biblical world view, we have
00:23:40.15\00:23:43.89
a foundation for why individuals
are valuable, why they should be
00:23:43.89\00:23:48.09
treated such and such, they were
created in the image of God.
00:23:48.09\00:23:50.26
Well, you don't get
that from the whole...
00:23:50.26\00:23:51.96
>>DAVID: I actually find that, I
find the argument, and I've read
00:23:51.96\00:23:55.43
a couple papers, actually
several papers from atheists on
00:23:55.43\00:23:59.87
the evolutionary argument for
the development of morality and
00:23:59.87\00:24:02.64
I actually find
it fairly persuasive.
00:24:02.64\00:24:05.24
In other words, well, just the
idea that if it were true, that
00:24:05.24\00:24:10.25
cumulatively, over time, people
had a dawning awareness that to
00:24:10.25\00:24:14.22
do a negative act could
reverberate negatively back on
00:24:14.22\00:24:18.22
me, that that would then begin
to create a sense in which a
00:24:18.22\00:24:22.46
modicum or at least a veneer of
morality would spread through a
00:24:22.46\00:24:27.60
given population.
00:24:27.60\00:24:28.93
I find that
reasonable persuasive.
00:24:28.93\00:24:30.37
What, in other words,
that seems plausible to me.
00:24:30.37\00:24:33.13
What I find to be the
touchstone, though, the point is
00:24:33.13\00:24:37.31
Ty's point, and that is that
even if that's true, even if we
00:24:37.31\00:24:41.81
give that, if we grant that, if
that's at least a possibility,
00:24:41.81\00:24:45.25
that that could happen,
that's conceivable, it's still a
00:24:45.25\00:24:49.45
morality that's rooted, to
some degree, in what benefits me
00:24:49.45\00:24:53.15
ultimately or my progeny or my
neighbor or, it's me, but in the
00:24:53.15\00:24:58.69
biblical portrait, love does
good to another for the benefit
00:24:58.69\00:25:05.00
of the other, and even
at the expense of one self.
00:25:05.00\00:25:09.37
That's the whole
idea of sacrifice.
00:25:09.37\00:25:12.24
I actually do a series, a
lecture on this very thing that
00:25:12.24\00:25:17.31
contrasts at the most
fundamental level, if Darwinism
00:25:17.31\00:25:21.45
is true, if evolutionary,
if that picture of the world is
00:25:21.45\00:25:26.25
true versus if the picture that
Jesus painted is true, what does
00:25:26.25\00:25:30.09
reality end up looking like?
00:25:30.09\00:25:32.09
In other words, let's just take
this to its logical conclusion,
00:25:32.09\00:25:34.36
let's take this to
its logical conclusion.
00:25:34.36\00:25:35.73
And I find it to be a fairly
persuasive argument, but at the
00:25:35.73\00:25:38.47
end of that presentation that
I make, I tell this story of a
00:25:38.47\00:25:42.80
plane that, a number of years
ago, like about a decade ago,
00:25:42.80\00:25:45.74
crashed, went just off the end
of the runway in Toronto, and in
00:25:45.74\00:25:50.51
the airport there, the airport
is close to or reasonably
00:25:50.51\00:25:54.12
adjacent to the freeway that
runs by, and here comes this Air
00:25:54.12\00:25:58.35
France flight, goes off
the end of the runway and just
00:25:58.35\00:26:00.82
immediately is in flames.
00:26:00.82\00:26:02.42
And here are people driving down
the road and they see this plane
00:26:02.42\00:26:06.43
that's in flames.
00:26:06.43\00:26:08.76
They spontaneously pull their
cars over, get out of their cars
00:26:08.76\00:26:13.20
and race, climbing over fences,
race across the field, several
00:26:13.20\00:26:17.21
hundred yards, to this plane,
because people saw this, dozens
00:26:17.21\00:26:21.38
of cars saw this, they run over
there and at, I man, this is a
00:26:21.38\00:26:25.01
burning airplane, the doors
had been opened, two of the four
00:26:25.01\00:26:29.05
evacuation doors were
operational, they began to help
00:26:29.05\00:26:32.69
people get off, people are
dragging people, people are
00:26:32.69\00:26:35.56
being burned, and the Canadian
Department of Transportation,
00:26:35.56\00:26:39.49
the Minister of Transportation
actually came on within 5 or 10
00:26:39.49\00:26:43.60
minutes of the flight crashing
and made an announcement, hey,
00:26:43.60\00:26:46.84
there's been a terrible crash,
there's been loss of life, we
00:26:46.84\00:26:48.97
don't know how much.
00:26:48.97\00:26:50.17
She's making this announcement,
she's gotten word, it's come
00:26:50.17\00:26:52.97
back to her, this announcement's
made, what unbeknownst to her is
00:26:52.97\00:26:56.18
that there are motorists, just
citizens, that are racing into
00:26:56.18\00:27:00.62
peril, racing into death,
potentially, helping people,
00:27:00.62\00:27:04.62
they don't know these people,
they're not family members,
00:27:04.62\00:27:06.86
they're not friends, they're
not, they don't know who these
00:27:06.86\00:27:08.72
people are, they're just humans
pulling them off and as the
00:27:08.72\00:27:12.13
story goes, not
one person perished.
00:27:12.13\00:27:15.73
It's an absolutely, and I closed
the story and I give, in the
00:27:15.73\00:27:19.03
presentation that I give,
there's this journalist who's
00:27:19.03\00:27:22.47
writing the next day and, I
don't know if it's the Toronto
00:27:22.47\00:27:24.67
Star, the
Toronto Sun or something.
00:27:24.67\00:27:26.11
He's telling the story, and
he says, here's the bottom line,
00:27:26.11\00:27:31.38
strangers got out of their
cars, the comfort and safety and
00:27:31.38\00:27:36.58
security of their cars, raced
toward a burning aircraft to
00:27:36.58\00:27:38.82
help people that they do not
know, may never meet again, put
00:27:38.82\00:27:41.59
their own lives at peril, and in
a matter of 2 minutes organized
00:27:41.59\00:27:45.59
an effective evacuation
procedure to get every single
00:27:45.59\00:27:48.66
person off of that airplane
before, moments later, it was
00:27:48.66\00:27:52.23
engulfed in flames.
00:27:52.23\00:27:53.10
Okay, now that,
that is very difficult.
00:27:53.10\00:27:56.71
That kind of magnanimous,
absolutely selfless, altruistic
00:27:56.71\00:27:59.67
behavior.
00:27:59.67\00:28:01.18
I don't see how the
herd thing can explain that.
00:28:01.18\00:28:04.41
>>TY: It makes no
evolutionary sense.
00:28:04.41\00:28:06.15
>>JEFFREY: There's
no survivability there.
00:28:06.15\00:28:08.52
>>JAMES: I gotta read this
statement in the context of
00:28:08.52\00:28:11.62
that.
00:28:11.62\00:28:12.15
>>DAVID: Yeah, please.
00:28:12.15\00:28:13.39
>>JAMES: It's in a book called
the Desire of Ages, it's on page
00:28:13.39\00:28:14.62
638 and this is what it says,
those whom Christ commends into
00:28:14.62\00:28:19.03
judgement may have known little
of theology, but they have
00:28:19.03\00:28:21.66
cherished his principles.
00:28:21.66\00:28:23.47
Through the influence of the
divine spirit, they have been a
00:28:23.47\00:28:26.60
blessing to those about them,
even among the heathen are those
00:28:26.60\00:28:29.74
who have cherished the spirit
of kindness before the words of
00:28:29.74\00:28:34.14
life had fallen upon their ears.
00:28:34.14\00:28:35.38
They have befriended the
missionaries, even ministering
00:28:35.38\00:28:39.01
to them at the
peril of their own lives.
00:28:39.01\00:28:41.18
Among the heathen of those who
worship God ignorantly, those to
00:28:41.18\00:28:45.15
whom the light is never brought
my human instrumentality, yet
00:28:45.15\00:28:48.96
they will not perish, I think
that's our question here, our
00:28:48.96\00:28:52.23
issue here, though ignorant
of the written law of God, they
00:28:52.23\00:28:55.43
have heard his voice speaking
to them in nature and they have
00:28:55.43\00:28:58.30
done the things
that the law required.
00:28:58.30\00:29:00.74
Their works are evidence
that the Holy Spirit has touched
00:29:00.74\00:29:04.77
their hearts and they are
recognized as the children of
00:29:04.77\00:29:08.01
God, how surprising gladdened
will be the lowly among the
00:29:08.01\00:29:11.51
nations and among the heathen
to hear from the lips of the
00:29:11.51\00:29:15.95
Savior and as much as you've
done it unto the least of these,
00:29:15.95\00:29:18.39
my brethren,
you've done it unto me.
00:29:18.39\00:29:20.52
How glad will be the heard of
infinite love as his followers
00:29:20.52\00:29:24.86
look up with surprise and
joy at his words of approval.
00:29:24.86\00:29:28.16
>>DAVID:
Hallelujah, sweet Jesus.
00:29:28.16\00:29:29.56
>>JAMES: Isn't that
a powerful statement?
00:29:29.56\00:29:30.33
>>TY: Yeah, beautiful.
00:29:30.33\00:29:31.57
>>DAVID: So, check this out, on
the break, when we were trying
00:29:31.57\00:29:33.44
to, you know, we had some
technical things to take care of
00:29:33.44\00:29:35.74
on this last break, Ty just
spontaneously said, coming out
00:29:35.74\00:29:39.84
of that first presentation, the
first section of this talk, he
00:29:39.84\00:29:43.14
said, spontaneously, do
you remember what you said?
00:29:43.14\00:29:45.18
>>TY: Nope.
00:29:45.18\00:29:46.38
>>DAVID: You said, this truth
about God is so liberating.
00:29:46.38\00:29:50.92
>>TY: Liberating, yeah.
00:29:50.92\00:29:52.12
>>DAVID: It's so liberating
because it frees you to believe
00:29:52.12\00:29:56.02
the best about people.
00:29:56.02\00:29:58.66
We know that humanity is
fallen, we know that there's
00:29:58.66\00:30:01.36
selfishness, we know that
the heart is deceitful above all
00:30:01.36\00:30:03.13
things, we know that, but
we also know that the spirit of
00:30:03.13\00:30:06.07
God, in his pervasive,
wonderful, wooing way.
00:30:06.07\00:30:09.70
You know, this, what I said
to Ty is, this overwhelms me the
00:30:09.70\00:30:13.58
most in airports, I don't know
what it is about airports, but
00:30:13.58\00:30:16.31
all of
00:30:16.31\00:30:17.41
-- >>TY: There's a lot of
people there, for one thing.
00:30:17.41\00:30:18.95
>>DAVID: There's a lot of
people, and every time I'm at an
00:30:18.95\00:30:21.32
airport, I see all these people
waiting to go to Des Moines, I
00:30:21.32\00:30:24.02
see all these people waiting
to go to Birmingham, I see these
00:30:24.02\00:30:25.85
people waiting to go to Cancun,
and I'm thinking, every one of
00:30:25.85\00:30:28.72
those people's life is just as
real and important to them as my
00:30:28.72\00:30:33.13
life is real
and important to me.
00:30:33.13\00:30:34.66
I don't know them, I don't know
where they're going, I don't
00:30:34.66\00:30:36.80
know the names
of their children.
00:30:36.80\00:30:38.00
And you can become overwhelmed
and think, how is the gospel
00:30:38.00\00:30:43.00
gonna get to every
one of these people?
00:30:43.00\00:30:45.01
And as a minister, as somebody
who has dedicated his life, as a
00:30:45.01\00:30:47.68
ministry that's dedicated our
life, we're doing what we can,
00:30:47.68\00:30:50.88
and praise God, there are other
ministries that are doing what
00:30:50.88\00:30:53.58
they can, but there is still
an ocean beyond, people that are
00:30:53.58\00:30:56.52
untapped, but I just become so
thrilled with the fact that God,
00:30:56.52\00:31:01.12
while using us, while asking
us to participate in his word is
00:31:01.12\00:31:05.19
not outright, absolutely
dependent on David Asscherick,
00:31:05.19\00:31:09.60
he's wooing, he's inviting, and
in that quotation you just read
00:31:09.60\00:31:13.30
there, she says that these
people who have done right, they
00:31:13.30\00:31:16.71
hear his voice, the word, the
wisdom, the light that lights
00:31:16.71\00:31:22.14
every man.
00:31:22.14\00:31:24.58
>>TY: They're literally in
the language of this quotation,
00:31:24.58\00:31:30.82
they're literally heathen
who hear the well done from God.
00:31:30.82\00:31:37.66
It's amazing.
00:31:37.66\00:31:38.89
There's an example of this that
is explicit in the ministry of
00:31:38.89\00:31:42.43
Jesus in Matthew chapter 8
if you guys wanna take a look at
00:31:42.43\00:31:46.57
this, I think that you will find
this to be very beautiful and
00:31:46.57\00:31:51.31
satisfying, not only, as David
said, because it liberates us to
00:31:51.31\00:31:56.95
believe the best about people.
00:31:56.95\00:32:00.82
>>DAVID: And to
hope the best for them.
00:32:00.82\00:32:02.35
>>TY: Yeah, and to hope the best
for them, it also, it liberates
00:32:02.35\00:32:05.69
us to believe the best about God
and the way God is intersecting
00:32:05.69\00:32:09.22
with people.
00:32:09.22\00:32:10.16
But, look at this.
00:32:10.16\00:32:11.36
Here, Jesus, yeah, Jesus is
ministering within the nation of
00:32:11.36\00:32:17.47
Israel and then it says
here that when Jesus entered
00:32:17.47\00:32:22.20
Capernaum, a centurion came to
him, pleading with him, saying,
00:32:22.20\00:32:25.71
Lord my servant lies home, sick
with the palsy, he's paralyzed,
00:32:25.71\00:32:29.81
he's dreadfully tormented.
00:32:29.81\00:32:31.65
So, here's the story, you got a
centurion, this is a Roman, so a
00:32:31.65\00:32:35.32
Gentile, a Roman soldier.
00:32:35.32\00:32:38.69
That Roman soldier comes
to Jesus, there's some kind of
00:32:38.69\00:32:42.12
attraction, okay, he sees
something, he sees something in
00:32:42.12\00:32:47.50
Jesus that draws him to Jesus,
which is a point we've made
00:32:47.50\00:32:50.97
earlier that people are
attracted to the character of
00:32:50.97\00:32:55.07
Jesus, they see goodness in
him that is like a gravitational
00:32:55.07\00:32:58.77
pull upon their hearts.
00:32:58.77\00:32:59.84
So, he comes to Jesus,
expecting goodness from Jesus.
00:32:59.84\00:33:04.38
Jesus, my servant is sick.
00:33:04.38\00:33:06.18
Would you heal him?
00:33:06.18\00:33:07.85
Jesus then affirms, we know the
story, and says, yes, I'll heal
00:33:07.85\00:33:11.09
him.
00:33:11.09\00:33:11.89
>>DAVID: Just
tell it, I love it.
00:33:11.89\00:33:13.32
>>TY: I'll come and heal him.
00:33:13.32\00:33:15.12
And the centurion responds and
says, I'm not even worthy for
00:33:15.12\00:33:18.56
you to come under my roof to
come into my house, but speak
00:33:18.56\00:33:21.56
the word only and my
servant will be healed.
00:33:21.56\00:33:23.40
All you have to do is just speak
the word and I know that what
00:33:23.40\00:33:26.60
you say will take place.
00:33:26.60\00:33:28.40
The centurion then explains his
understanding of this based on
00:33:28.40\00:33:32.21
his own relation to
those who are under him.
00:33:32.21\00:33:33.91
He says, I'm a man, I have
a little bit of authority in
00:33:33.91\00:33:36.31
myself, and I'm under authority,
I know how authority works, and
00:33:36.31\00:33:40.18
I see authority in you over
my problem, and would you please
00:33:40.18\00:33:44.69
use it?
00:33:44.69\00:33:45.52
So, here's the part
that is just amazing.
00:33:45.52\00:33:48.12
Jesus goes through this entire
interaction, the servant gets
00:33:48.12\00:33:50.69
healed and then Jesus turns to
the religious folks around him,
00:33:50.69\00:33:55.80
he turns to the Pharisees, the
scribes, to the Jewish believers
00:33:55.80\00:34:01.44
around him, and Jesus says
something that, in this context,
00:34:01.44\00:34:04.47
can only be
regarded as scandalous.
00:34:04.47\00:34:07.38
>>DAVID: Scandalous,
that's the right word.
00:34:07.38\00:34:08.61
>>TY: Jesus says, in verse 10
of Matthew 8, assuredly I say to
00:34:08.61\00:34:12.88
you, to you religious people, I
have not found such great faith,
00:34:12.88\00:34:18.15
not even in Israel.
00:34:18.15\00:34:20.92
Okay, that's the foundation.
00:34:20.92\00:34:22.02
So, then if that's not
scandalous enough, Jesus then
00:34:22.02\00:34:26.19
blows the lid off this thing and
says to these people who believe
00:34:26.19\00:34:29.36
that salvation is exclusively
for them, Jesus says to them,
00:34:29.36\00:34:34.00
and, okay, and, I say to you
that many, not a few, but many
00:34:34.00\00:34:40.61
will come from the east and the
west and sit down with Abraham,
00:34:40.61\00:34:45.05
Isaac, and Jacob in
the kingdom of heaven.
00:34:45.05\00:34:49.72
Isn't that amazing?
00:34:49.72\00:34:50.82
So, with this, Jesus has
basically said, when we get to
00:34:50.82\00:34:54.99
the other side of this great
controversy between good and
00:34:54.99\00:34:57.23
evil, surely, these people
believe, yep, Abraham will be
00:34:57.23\00:35:00.60
there.
00:35:00.60\00:35:01.23
Yep, yep, Abraham will be there.
00:35:01.23\00:35:02.83
Isaac, he'll be there,
Jacob will be there and they're
00:35:02.83\00:35:05.73
kicking back under the tree of
life, that's the picture we have
00:35:05.73\00:35:08.34
here, basically, and they're
fellowshipping and Jesus says,
00:35:08.34\00:35:12.14
wait a minute, there are gonna
be many from the east and the
00:35:12.14\00:35:16.14
west, so geographically, he's
saying, we're here in Israel,
00:35:16.14\00:35:19.58
but if you go to the
east, we're dealing with
00:35:19.58\00:35:21.95
-- >>DAVID: Persians.
00:35:21.95\00:35:23.79
>>TY: Yeah, Asia, you go to the
west, we're dealing with western
00:35:23.79\00:35:28.39
Europe and the British Isles and
all of that, okay, and he says,
00:35:28.39\00:35:32.59
there are gonna be many
people from all these different
00:35:32.59\00:35:35.26
cultures and nations and
they will come and sit down with
00:35:35.26\00:35:39.17
Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob in the kingdom.
00:35:39.17\00:35:41.74
This scripture is Jesus
explicitly saying that people
00:35:41.74\00:35:46.98
from all different cultures that
have never had access to the
00:35:46.98\00:35:52.11
special revelatory
knowledge of Israel
00:35:52.11\00:35:54.52
-- >>DAVID: In scripture.
00:35:54.52\00:35:55.48
>>TY: Yet these people
will be in the kingdom.
00:35:55.48\00:35:58.09
>>JEFFREY: That would've sounded
crazy to the original audience
00:35:58.09\00:36:01.49
here.
00:36:01.49\00:36:02.66
>>TY: Absolutely, but if
you fast-forward to the book of
00:36:02.66\00:36:04.33
revelation, in chapter 7,
John sees what he calls a great
00:36:04.33\00:36:09.13
multitude, which no man could
number, and do you know, do you
00:36:09.13\00:36:12.60
remember the rest?
00:36:12.60\00:36:13.84
Out of every nation, kindred,
tongue, or language group, and
00:36:13.84\00:36:17.71
people.
00:36:17.71\00:36:18.47
In the kingdom,
a great multitude.
00:36:18.47\00:36:21.61
>>DAVID: And, let me tell you,
to me, the story, talking about
00:36:21.61\00:36:25.71
liberation, the story of Jesus
and the way that he affirms the
00:36:25.71\00:36:29.98
faith of the Roman centurion.
00:36:29.98\00:36:31.32
I wanna say
something about this.
00:36:31.32\00:36:32.55
Jesus' endorsement of
the centurion's faith and his
00:36:32.55\00:36:35.09
healing of the centurion's
servant was not a wholesale
00:36:35.09\00:36:37.93
endorsement of all of
the things about this man.
00:36:37.93\00:36:41.03
It wasn't an endorsement of
the fact that he's a soldier and
00:36:41.03\00:36:43.33
that he would've been, in other
words, what he's saying is, hey,
00:36:43.33\00:36:45.60
here's a person
who's on a journey.
00:36:45.60\00:36:47.90
Here's somebody who has at least
the glimmerings, the dawning of
00:36:47.90\00:36:51.91
recognition of who I am and I'm
walking around my own people,
00:36:51.91\00:36:55.21
because the next part that he
says is the kind of stuff that
00:36:55.21\00:36:59.25
got him killed.
00:36:59.25\00:37:00.55
Verse 12, but the sons of the
kingdom, they will be cast into
00:37:00.55\00:37:06.39
outer darkness and there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.
00:37:06.39\00:37:10.19
In the first segment, Jeffrey
basically said, there are
00:37:10.19\00:37:13.19
religious people who have a
mischaracterization of who God
00:37:13.19\00:37:16.06
is, and there are non-religious
people, we would say,
00:37:16.06\00:37:18.47
non-Israelites, moral, who have
a correct concept, and that's
00:37:18.47\00:37:21.64
what Jesus is doing here.
00:37:21.64\00:37:23.14
And there is, by the way, and
I don't have time to develop it
00:37:23.14\00:37:25.87
here, but there is a very
intentional positioning of
00:37:25.87\00:37:30.28
Matthew's telling of this story
with Jesus coming down off of
00:37:30.28\00:37:34.45
the mountain.
00:37:34.45\00:37:35.65
It's the first major miracle
other than the healing of the
00:37:35.65\00:37:37.85
leper, which
happens just before this.
00:37:37.85\00:37:38.99
Matthew has positioned
this story and I believe Jesus
00:37:38.99\00:37:41.86
positioned this experience,
he saw this guy and said, man,
00:37:41.86\00:37:45.66
because this was the very thing
that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
00:37:45.66\00:37:49.23
were called to do, to take the
gospel, not just given to, but
00:37:49.23\00:37:53.07
through and here this
isolationationist, elitist,
00:37:53.07\00:37:56.57
patriotic, nationalistic,
insular mentality had overtaken
00:37:56.57\00:38:02.24
Israel and Jesus starts dropping
these little seeds to the
00:38:02.24\00:38:06.15
Cyrophenecian woman, to
the woman at the well who was a
00:38:06.15\00:38:08.55
Samaritan, to the
00:38:08.55\00:38:09.72
-- >>JEFFREY: There's a term
that he uses, even Paul, the
00:38:09.72\00:38:12.99
true Israelite, a
spiritual Israelite.
00:38:12.99\00:38:15.39
So, this guy's a centurion.
00:38:15.39\00:38:16.99
>>DAVID: Paul doesn't use
the word spiritual Israelite.
00:38:16.99\00:38:18.86
>>JEFFREY: No, no, no, but this
whole concept of Israel of God,
00:38:18.86\00:38:21.36
and an Israelite indeed, but
here in Matthew 8, so this guy's
00:38:21.36\00:38:25.80
a centurion, but he's really
at heart, to the core, he's a
00:38:25.80\00:38:30.01
spiritual Israelite, basically.
00:38:30.01\00:38:31.87
In character and in spirit.
00:38:31.87\00:38:33.51
>>TY: Jesus is describing,
I guess what might be called a
00:38:33.51\00:38:37.01
great exchange.
00:38:37.01\00:38:38.68
Picture two circles overlapping,
and over here, in this circle is
00:38:38.68\00:38:44.09
the wide, unbelieving world
that doesn't directly associate
00:38:44.09\00:38:48.59
itself with Christianity or
with Israel at this time and its
00:38:48.59\00:38:53.93
teachings.
00:38:53.93\00:38:55.10
And this circle overlapping
represents the church or Israel
00:38:55.10\00:39:00.70
back at this time,
they're overlapping.
00:39:00.70\00:39:02.14
Here's the thing, right there at
the overlap point, that's where
00:39:02.14\00:39:07.01
the Lord knows those who are
his, but this is amazing, what
00:39:07.01\00:39:11.28
Jesus is describing here is that
many, the sons of light, those
00:39:11.28\00:39:17.39
who have had great privilege and
knowledge, many of those, what
00:39:17.39\00:39:21.29
are they gonna do?
00:39:21.29\00:39:21.86
Outer darkness.
00:39:21.86\00:39:22.92
And at the same time,
simultaneously, what's gonna
00:39:22.92\00:39:24.79
happen with those who haven't
had all the privilege and light?
00:39:24.79\00:39:27.50
It's just gonna,
a great exchange.
00:39:27.50\00:39:30.50
Tribe after tribe, company after
company, from the unbelieving
00:39:30.50\00:39:34.74
world, are gonna
come into the fold and
00:39:34.74\00:39:37.17
-- >>JEFFREY:
They're gonna be shaken out.
00:39:37.17\00:39:38.41
>>TY: Group after group
are gonna be shaken out.
00:39:38.41\00:39:41.28
Isn't that amazing?
00:39:41.28\00:39:42.38
>>DAVID: I'm on fire.
00:39:42.38\00:39:43.58
>>JAMES: Now, there's a few more
verses here that I wanted to
00:39:43.58\00:39:46.15
look at, but Ty was also
taking us to a step of scandals.
00:39:46.15\00:39:48.95
You were saying it was more
scandalous, take this, you got
00:39:48.95\00:39:52.39
this next step, and I think the
Cyrophanician woman is another
00:39:52.39\00:39:55.12
one.
00:39:55.12\00:39:55.72
>>DAVID: That's a scandal.
00:39:55.72\00:39:56.96
>>JAMES: Because the question I
would ask is can dogs be saved?
00:39:56.96\00:39:58.63
In the mind of the Jews, these
people outside of their borders,
00:39:58.63\00:40:04.10
were like dogs.
00:40:04.10\00:40:05.33
And Jesus picks up, yeah, and
Jesus picks that up because when
00:40:05.33\00:40:09.90
the Cyrophanician woman comes
to him, asking this favor, and
00:40:09.90\00:40:13.58
she's the only other person in
the life of Christ, the ministry
00:40:13.58\00:40:16.18
of Christ, she's the only other
person where Jesus says, great
00:40:16.18\00:40:18.38
is your faith,
great is your faith.
00:40:18.38\00:40:20.68
Your faith has made you
whole, your faith, but great is
00:40:20.68\00:40:23.62
yout faith to the centurion,
great is your faith to the
00:40:23.62\00:40:25.65
Cyrophanician woman.
00:40:25.65\00:40:27.09
But before he does that, she's
asking him for a favor and he
00:40:27.09\00:40:29.56
says, it's not me to take the
children's food and give it to
00:40:29.56\00:40:33.36
the dogs.
00:40:33.36\00:40:34.30
>>DAVID: He's
voicing their own prejudices.
00:40:34.30\00:40:35.83
>>JAMES: And what he's saying
there is, when he commends her
00:40:35.83\00:40:39.87
faith, he's saying to his
disciples to the Jewish nation,
00:40:39.87\00:40:41.80
this is what I came, these
are the people I came to save.
00:40:41.80\00:40:44.47
>>TY: The ones you call dogs,
I don't regard that way at all.
00:40:44.47\00:40:48.18
>>JAMES: He's going, in
other words, he's answering our
00:40:48.18\00:40:50.98
question, he's telling us that
there are people out there, that
00:40:50.98\00:40:53.85
we consider dogs, there are
people out there in this, in
00:40:53.85\00:40:56.85
military uniform, there are
people out there, women that
00:40:56.85\00:41:00.19
have been married 2 times, 3
times, 5 times, there are people
00:41:00.19\00:41:03.76
out there that are more moral
and more appreciative and more
00:41:03.76\00:41:08.10
accepting of me as the Messiah
and ready for salvation than you
00:41:08.10\00:41:11.80
guys are in all
of your religiosity.
00:41:11.80\00:41:13.03
>>TY: Amazing, we
have to take a break.
00:41:13.03\00:41:14.90
>>DAVID: When we come back, we
have to go to Romans 9, because
00:41:14.90\00:41:17.17
that's Romans 9.
00:41:17.17\00:41:19.21
>>TY: Yeah, let's pause.
00:41:19.21\00:41:21.14
that's Romans 9.
00:41:21.14\00:41:21.68
Announcer: A Light in Zambia is
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00:41:29.88\00:41:32.39
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00:41:32.39\00:41:36.16
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00:41:56.41\00:41:57.31
[Music]
00:42:02.55\00:42:03.49
eak, I'm just
00:42:03.75\00:42:05.69
vibrating, do you feel that?
00:42:05.69\00:42:07.29
[inaudible chatter]
00:42:07.29\00:42:09.96
I am a Pentecostal right
now, like I believe in the
00:42:09.96\00:42:12.63
Pentecostal power of the spirit.
00:42:12.63\00:42:13.90
Okay, check this out.
00:42:13.90\00:42:15.10
Based on the conversation where
we ended, I'm just gonna read
00:42:15.10\00:42:17.93
Romans chapter 9, here we go,
verse 30, what should we say,
00:42:17.93\00:42:22.17
then?
00:42:22.17\00:42:23.34
That the Gentiles who did
not pursue righteousness have
00:42:23.34\00:42:26.41
attained to righteousness, even
the righteousness of faith, but
00:42:26.41\00:42:31.05
Israel, pursuing the law of
righteousness, has not attained
00:42:31.05\00:42:34.95
to the law of righteousness.
00:42:34.95\00:42:36.22
Why?
00:42:36.22\00:42:37.45
Because they did not seek it
by faith, but as it were, by the
00:42:37.45\00:42:40.49
works of the law, for
they stumbled at that stumbling
00:42:40.49\00:42:42.72
stone.
00:42:42.72\00:42:44.13
That is, that's the
theology behind Matthew 8.
00:42:44.13\00:42:48.06
>>TY: Yeah, the centurion's
experience is here described in
00:42:48.06\00:42:51.07
theological term.
00:42:51.07\00:42:52.30
>>DAVID: That's right, that is
the very point that he's making,
00:42:52.30\00:42:54.87
and I tell you
00:42:54.87\00:42:56.00
-- >>JEFFREY: They basically
lost the plot, basically.
00:42:56.00\00:42:57.51
>>DAVID: They lost the
00:42:57.51\00:42:58.54
-- >>TY: And somebody
else was getting the plot.
00:42:58.54\00:43:00.34
>>JEFFREY: Yeah.
00:43:00.34\00:43:01.41
>>DAVID: Your exchange,
your exchange, your exchange.
00:43:01.41\00:43:03.08
James ended with the
Cyrophanician woman and I love
00:43:03.08\00:43:05.45
that and I love
the woman at the well.
00:43:05.45\00:43:07.32
The Samaritan woman.
00:43:07.32\00:43:08.72
The disciples are like, you
know, they come back, what are
00:43:08.72\00:43:10.69
you, what are you doing?
00:43:10.69\00:43:12.12
Even the woman was confused,
hey, can I have a drink?
00:43:12.12\00:43:14.26
And what I love about that is,
he doesn't say, can I get you a
00:43:14.26\00:43:17.33
drink?
00:43:17.33\00:43:18.43
Because she would've said,
no thank you, no thank you.
00:43:18.43\00:43:21.40
>>TY: I'm good, she wouldn't
have served, he's a man, she's a
00:43:21.40\00:43:24.13
woman, I have to, sure, I will.
00:43:24.13\00:43:25.77
>>DAVID: I don't, no
00:43:25.77\00:43:27.34
-- >>TY: I think he wanted a
favor from her in order to make
00:43:27.34\00:43:29.84
-- >>DAVID: If he would've said,
can I get you a drink, that
00:43:29.84\00:43:33.01
conversation would've been
over in 5 seconds, because she
00:43:33.01\00:43:35.24
would've said, no thank you.
00:43:35.24\00:43:36.48
He gives her the opportunity to,
he trusts her, he reposes trust,
00:43:36.48\00:43:41.62
gives her the
opportunity to serve.
00:43:41.62\00:43:43.52
She's taken aback.
00:43:43.52\00:43:44.49
>>TY: Why would you
want something from my hand?
00:43:44.49\00:43:46.25
>>DAVID: Why are you asking, I'm
a Samaritan, you're a Jew, but
00:43:46.25\00:43:48.22
here's my point.
00:43:48.22\00:43:49.42
When the story unfolds, Jesus
gives to this woman, as you
00:43:49.42\00:43:54.10
mentioned, James, not only
a Samaritan, ugh, you know, a
00:43:54.10\00:43:57.33
Samaritan, spit when you say
it, a woman who had been married
00:43:57.33\00:44:00.47
repeatedly, and Jesus is like, a
woman, the one you're with now,
00:44:00.47\00:44:03.67
not even your husband, he gives
the fullest disclosure of who he
00:44:03.67\00:44:08.18
is, she says, we know that when
Messiah comes, he'll sort all
00:44:08.18\00:44:11.11
this.
00:44:11.11\00:44:11.95
He said, oh,
man, can you see this?
00:44:11.95\00:44:14.42
Sister, that's me.
00:44:14.42\00:44:19.02
The pot is like, you know,
I love this story, Jesus is
00:44:19.02\00:44:24.63
planting, and all the while, the
disciples, and I feel like, I'm
00:44:24.63\00:44:28.03
this way, just
befuddled and just, uh, what?
00:44:28.03\00:44:31.77
Huh, what's going on?
00:44:31.77\00:44:33.54
You know, just not getting it.
00:44:33.54\00:44:35.34
Even on the day of Pentecost,
coming down, Peter's gonna get
00:44:35.34\00:44:38.24
this vision, you know, it's just
like, these guys were slow to,
00:44:38.24\00:44:40.74
they were so parochial, they
couldn't see the bigger, are we
00:44:40.74\00:44:45.38
that way?
00:44:45.38\00:44:46.45
>>JAMES: David, I know
the point you're making here.
00:44:46.45\00:44:48.78
Why did Jesus tell her and
no one else that he was the
00:44:48.78\00:44:53.72
Messiah?
00:44:53.72\00:44:54.26
Because she was willing
00:44:54.26\00:44:57.13
-- >>DAVID: She could hear it.
00:44:57.13\00:44:58.49
>>JAMES: She could hear
it, she could receive it.
00:44:58.49\00:44:59.86
He couldn't tell, not
that he didn't want to.
00:44:59.86\00:45:01.90
>>DAVID: But they would ask him
sometimes, they would say, you
00:45:01.90\00:45:03.33
tell us if you're the Messiah.
00:45:03.33\00:45:04.50
Let me ask you a question,
that baptism of John, was that?
00:45:04.50\00:45:07.17
>>JEFFREY: But with her, he
seems to have freedom to just
00:45:07.17\00:45:09.04
-- [inaudible chatter]
00:45:09.04\00:45:11.97
>>DAVID: Even
though she's a sinner.
00:45:11.97\00:45:12.87
>>JEFFREY: He
sees something in her.
00:45:12.87\00:45:14.18
>>DAVID: She's a sinner
and she's a woman and she's a
00:45:14.18\00:45:16.01
Samaritan, and yet, there's this
00:45:16.01\00:45:17.25
-- >>TY: She's open.
00:45:17.25\00:45:18.18
Somebody's gotta
break out Romans 2.
00:45:18.18\00:45:20.55
>>DAVID: We're in Romans.
00:45:20.55\00:45:21.48
Let's go.
00:45:21.48\00:45:23.85
>>TY: Romans 2 is a scripture
that we all have on the table
00:45:23.85\00:45:27.29
all the time.
00:45:27.29\00:45:29.72
Who's gonna do it.
00:45:29.72\00:45:30.56
>>DAVID: You.
00:45:30.56\00:45:31.79
>>TY: Oh, Romans chapter 2, this
is fascinating, the Apostle Paul
00:45:31.79\00:45:34.30
is here, explaining something
that, in a very nice way,
00:45:34.30\00:45:39.10
summarizes what
we're talking about.
00:45:39.10\00:45:40.54
>>DAVID: I hope the people
that are listening into this
00:45:40.54\00:45:41.90
conversation will get their
bibles out and open to Romans
00:45:41.90\00:45:44.24
chapter 2.
00:45:44.24\00:45:45.47
This verse liberated me, this
verse created a context in which
00:45:45.47\00:45:49.91
I could become a
Christian, this passage.
00:45:49.91\00:45:51.41
>>TY: Really?
00:45:51.41\00:45:52.18
>>DAVID: For me.
00:45:52.18\00:45:52.71
>>TY: You break it down.
00:45:52.71\00:45:53.68
>>DAVID: No, no, no,
no, no, I wanna hear it.
00:45:53.68\00:45:54.78
>>TY: Okay, I'll read it
and you tell me what this says.
00:45:54.78\00:45:55.95
>>DAVID: I'll
worship, you preach.
00:45:55.95\00:45:56.85
>>TY: Okay.
00:45:56.85\00:45:57.95
For, verse 14, for when
Gentiles, who do not have the
00:45:57.95\00:46:01.86
law, by nature, do the things
in the law, these, although not
00:46:01.86\00:46:08.86
having the law, are a law to
themselves, verse 15, who show
00:46:08.86\00:46:13.27
the work of the law written in
their hearts, their conscience
00:46:13.27\00:46:16.77
also bearing witness,
and between themselves, their
00:46:16.77\00:46:21.14
thoughts accusing
or else excusing them.
00:46:21.14\00:46:24.01
This is astounding.
00:46:24.01\00:46:25.38
>>JEFFREY: And it's a passage
regarding morality in a sense.
00:46:25.38\00:46:28.02
>>DAVID: And it's a passage
regarding the judgement, verse
00:46:28.02\00:46:29.82
16, in the day when God will
judge the secrets of men, by
00:46:29.82\00:46:31.95
Jesus Christ
according to my gospel.
00:46:31.95\00:46:33.86
>>JEFFREY: I like the fact that
the word nature's in verse 14.
00:46:33.86\00:46:36.99
>>TY: By nature.
00:46:36.99\00:46:37.49
>>JEFFREY: Yeah.
00:46:37.49\00:46:37.99
>>TY: That's right.
00:46:37.99\00:46:39.19
So, in other words, this is
referring back, by the way, to
00:46:39.19\00:46:41.66
chapter 1, verse 19, where Paul
had earlier said that what may
00:46:41.66\00:46:47.27
be known of God
is manifest in them.
00:46:47.27\00:46:50.17
Well, here, when we come to
chapter 2, the in them part is
00:46:50.17\00:46:52.31
by nature.
00:46:52.31\00:46:53.64
It's by nature, in other words,
what we've said previously in
00:46:53.64\00:46:57.05
the conversation, there's moral
activity inside of them, but
00:46:57.05\00:47:00.62
this moral activity is a
transcendent morality that first
00:47:00.62\00:47:06.29
exists in God.
00:47:06.29\00:47:07.52
He then makes human beings in
his image, that image is lost,
00:47:07.52\00:47:12.56
but
00:47:12.56\00:47:14.46
-- >>DAVID: It's compromised.
00:47:14.46\00:47:15.66
>>TY: Yeah, it's compromised,
and remnants of that moral image
00:47:15.66\00:47:18.63
still reside in the human
heart in a compromised form.
00:47:18.63\00:47:22.00
So, we're not moral by
evolutionary process, we're
00:47:22.00\00:47:25.37
moral by design.
00:47:25.37\00:47:26.34
We're moral by design.
00:47:26.34\00:47:28.64
>>JEFFREY: I love how this
acknowledges, though, the bible
00:47:28.64\00:47:32.01
itself acknowledges that
there is an intuitive, innate
00:47:32.01\00:47:36.05
morality, which is where
the evolutionists would take off
00:47:36.05\00:47:40.62
from.
00:47:40.62\00:47:41.86
>>TY: And this scripture says
that when you violate it, when
00:47:41.86\00:47:43.96
you violate your nature
00:47:43.96\00:47:45.66
-- >>DAVID: Your
conscience accuses you.
00:47:45.66\00:47:46.76
>>TY: Your
conscience accuses you.
00:47:46.76\00:47:47.76
>>DAVID: Your own
conscience accuses you.
00:47:47.76\00:47:49.63
>>TY: Yeah, you shouldn't have
done that, you lay on your bed
00:47:49.63\00:47:51.60
at night.
00:47:51.60\00:47:52.83
You haven't necessarily, these
people haven't read the bible,
00:47:52.83\00:47:54.50
they don't have the 10
Commandments, they lay on their
00:47:54.50\00:47:57.07
bed at night, and they
think, why did I do that today?
00:47:57.07\00:47:59.77
Their conscience is, but also,
he says, simultaneously, when
00:47:59.77\00:48:03.58
you do what's right,
your conscience affirms you.
00:48:03.58\00:48:05.88
>>DAVID: Have you
heard of the baby lab?
00:48:05.88\00:48:08.78
It's called, I think it's just
called the baby lab, I think
00:48:08.78\00:48:12.22
it's located at Yale University.
00:48:12.22\00:48:13.86
I just read a
synopsis of a paper.
00:48:13.86\00:48:15.56
They're constantly studying the
development of human behavior
00:48:15.56\00:48:18.99
there.
00:48:18.99\00:48:20.20
And I just read a paper recently
that was sent by a friend of
00:48:20.20\00:48:22.00
mine, Dr. Sean Pitman, and
they showed that this idea that
00:48:22.00\00:48:27.54
children are blank moral slates
and you can just implant any old
00:48:27.54\00:48:30.77
ideal, like, they're a blank
hard drive, and you just put any
00:48:30.77\00:48:33.27
software in.
00:48:33.27\00:48:33.78
[inaudible chatter]
00:48:33.78\00:48:35.21
>>TY: Can't happen.
00:48:35.21\00:48:35.74
>>DAVID: Can't happen.
00:48:35.74\00:48:36.24
>>TY: Can't happen.
00:48:36.24\00:48:37.48
>>DAVID: They show that children
from the age of as young as 2
00:48:37.48\00:48:39.81
already have an innate, in born
sense of right and wrong, of
00:48:39.81\00:48:44.45
morality.
00:48:44.45\00:48:45.05
Now, you can squelch that.
00:48:45.05\00:48:46.89
You can become a person over
years of silencing that voice
00:48:46.89\00:48:51.26
and abusing your own conscience
and you can create a situation
00:48:51.26\00:48:55.43
where you are
devoid of a conscience.
00:48:55.43\00:48:57.23
>>JEFFREY: But that's the point,
you would have to initiate that,
00:48:57.23\00:48:59.07
you wouldn't naturally do that.
00:48:59.07\00:49:00.87
>>TY: And you would
have to persist in it.
00:49:00.87\00:49:01.74
>>JEFFREY: That's hard work.
00:49:01.74\00:49:03.07
It's hard work to
suppress your moral compass.
00:49:03.07\00:49:05.34
>>DAVID: And the
converse is also true.
00:49:05.34\00:49:07.18
As you become a sensitive person
and you respond to people with
00:49:07.18\00:49:10.38
empathy and kindness
and compassion and you know,
00:49:10.38\00:49:12.88
whatever you've done unto one
of the least of these, you know,
00:49:12.88\00:49:14.38
you clothed me, you visited
me, you fed me, then we become
00:49:14.38\00:49:17.62
increasingly in tuned to
moral situations around us.
00:49:17.62\00:49:21.89
That's one of the things I'll
just be straight up, Ty, I love
00:49:21.89\00:49:23.89
about you.
00:49:23.89\00:49:25.09
I love all the guys here,
but I've heard you, in repeated
00:49:25.09\00:49:26.66
situations, Ty, difficult
situations in meetings and board
00:49:26.66\00:49:29.96
meetings or whatever, you say,
hey, wait a minute, how does
00:49:29.96\00:49:33.77
this, how does this situation
look from their perspective,
00:49:33.77\00:49:36.87
there's this like, there's
this justice element, and I love
00:49:36.87\00:49:39.87
that.
00:49:39.87\00:49:40.98
There have been times in
meetings where you have brought
00:49:40.98\00:49:42.61
things that even me, as a
gospel preacher, I missed that.
00:49:42.61\00:49:46.01
I missed, there's a moral
sensitivity that God has given
00:49:46.01\00:49:48.82
you, you know, and I love that.
00:49:48.82\00:49:50.02
I pray that God'll give me a
similarly acute, and not that
00:49:50.02\00:49:53.82
all of us don't have it, but
I've just noticed it in you a
00:49:53.82\00:49:56.02
number of times, but in the same
way that that's the case, well,
00:49:56.02\00:49:59.96
the opposite could be, you can
get to the place where you just
00:49:59.96\00:50:02.56
pull out a gun and just...
00:50:02.56\00:50:03.50
>>TY: That's called psychopathy.
00:50:03.50\00:50:05.20
>>JAMES: Let me share this
statement real quick, just to
00:50:05.20\00:50:08.07
firm up what we're talking
about Education of Age, page 29,
00:50:08.07\00:50:11.07
Christ is the light which
lighteneth every man that comes
00:50:11.07\00:50:14.58
into the world, that's a verse
that we've been looking at quite
00:50:14.58\00:50:16.48
a bit in 1 John 1:9.
00:50:16.48\00:50:17.48
>>TY: John 1:9.
00:50:17.48\00:50:18.51
>>JAMES: John 1:9, thank you.
00:50:18.51\00:50:20.62
As through Christ, every human
being has life, so also, through
00:50:20.62\00:50:24.82
him, every soul receives
00:50:24.82\00:50:29.46
-- >>DAVID: The
glasses come out.
00:50:29.46\00:50:30.69
>>JAMES: Not only intellectual,
I've been putting it off for a
00:50:30.69\00:50:35.06
long time.
00:50:35.06\00:50:36.16
I waited until my wife got
them and then I said, okay.
00:50:36.16\00:50:37.60
Not only intellectual, but
spiritual power, a perception of
00:50:37.60\00:50:42.20
right, a desire for
goodness exists in every heart.
00:50:42.20\00:50:45.51
Why?
00:50:45.51\00:50:46.74
Because Christ is the light that
lightens every man that comes
00:50:46.74\00:50:48.58
into the world.
00:50:48.58\00:50:49.81
But against these principles,
there is struggling, there is
00:50:49.81\00:50:54.02
struggling and
antagonistic power.
00:50:54.02\00:50:57.49
The result of the eating of the
Tree of the Knowledge of Good
00:50:57.49\00:51:00.09
and Evil is manifest in every
man's experience, there is, in
00:51:00.09\00:51:02.19
his nature, a bend to evil, a
force which, unaided, he cannot
00:51:02.19\00:51:05.29
resist.
00:51:05.29\00:51:06.13
>>DAVID: Which
unaided he can't resist.
00:51:06.13\00:51:07.30
>>JAMES: To withstand this
force, to retain that idea which
00:51:07.30\00:51:09.70
is most, in his inmost soul, he
accepts as alone worthy, he can
00:51:09.70\00:51:15.27
find help in but one
power, and that power is Christ.
00:51:15.27\00:51:17.87
>>TY: Just one quick bit of
advice and secret you don't know
00:51:17.87\00:51:22.58
about, parenthetical statement.
00:51:22.58\00:51:23.98
On the iPad, you can make the
type bigger so you don't have to
00:51:23.98\00:51:26.68
wear the glasses.
00:51:26.68\00:51:27.72
>>JAMES: I know, I just
don't know how to do it.
00:51:27.72\00:51:28.65
I'm not able to do
that right this second.
00:51:28.65\00:51:31.49
[inaudible chatter]
00:51:31.49\00:51:34.49
>>DAVID: I'm just gonna quickly
read, because you started into
00:51:34.49\00:51:36.93
verse 14, I'm just gonna quickly
read verses 11, 12, and 13,
00:51:36.93\00:51:38.79
because they really
set the argument up.
00:51:38.79\00:51:40.33
Verse 11, there is
no partiality with God.
00:51:40.33\00:51:43.20
Verse 12, for as many as have
sinned without the law, without
00:51:43.20\00:51:46.47
the written code that God gave
to the Jews, through Moses, they
00:51:46.47\00:51:50.31
will perish without the law, and
as many as have sinned within
00:51:50.31\00:51:52.54
the law, they will
be judged by the law.
00:51:52.54\00:51:54.58
For not the hearers of the law,
the writings of Moses in the Old
00:51:54.58\00:51:57.68
Testament, are just in the sight
of God, but the doers of the law
00:51:57.68\00:52:01.52
will be just, and then he begins
his argument with the Gentiles.
00:52:01.52\00:52:04.12
>>JAMES: Quick question, Ty, how
do I make the type in my bible
00:52:04.12\00:52:07.56
bigger so I
don't need my glasses?
00:52:07.56\00:52:08.79
>>TY: Doesn't work that way, you
gotta buy a large print bible
00:52:08.79\00:52:10.63
for grandpas.
00:52:10.63\00:52:11.59
>>DAVID: It looks like
you're going somewhere.
00:52:11.59\00:52:13.63
>>TY: Well, this is connected
but it's a little bit of a
00:52:13.63\00:52:18.33
different way to go, and I think
it's really a helpful thing to
00:52:18.33\00:52:22.64
go back to the Old Testament, to
a prophecy in Isaiah 49 that is
00:52:22.64\00:52:28.94
about the coming Messiah,
the one that we have in this
00:52:28.94\00:52:32.45
conversation and the previous
conversation spoken of as the
00:52:32.45\00:52:35.95
word, the voice, the light.
00:52:35.95\00:52:38.92
This Jesus is foretold in Isaiah
49, and as the prophecy is given
00:52:38.92\00:52:47.40
in verse 1, it says,
listen, oh coastlands to me.
00:52:47.40\00:52:51.10
Me, Jesus, the Messiah.
00:52:51.10\00:52:53.70
Listen, oh coastlands, to me and
take heed you peoples from afar.
00:52:53.70\00:52:58.61
In other words, outside
of the perimeters of Israel.
00:52:58.61\00:53:02.11
Okay, the Gentile world is
being addressed here, okay?
00:53:02.11\00:53:06.11
Listen.
00:53:06.11\00:53:07.15
And then, it goes on to
basically say, the Messiah
00:53:07.15\00:53:09.85
that's coming, the Savior that's
coming, he is not just for the
00:53:09.85\00:53:13.62
Jews, he's not just for
Israelites, he's for, and
00:53:13.62\00:53:18.33
there's all these different
groups of people, people who
00:53:18.33\00:53:21.06
didn't have an islands and
coastlands that are described.
00:53:21.06\00:53:24.03
And then, interestingly enough,
when you come all the way down
00:53:24.03\00:53:27.94
to verse 12, surely,
these shall come from afar.
00:53:27.94\00:53:32.94
Remember Jesus said, they shall
come from the east and the west,
00:53:32.94\00:53:35.34
okay, surely, these shall come
from afar, look, those from the
00:53:35.34\00:53:39.11
north and the west and these
from the land of Sinem, the land
00:53:39.11\00:53:44.35
of Sinem.
00:53:44.35\00:53:45.59
Now, that's a very strange word
that most people aren't familiar
00:53:45.59\00:53:47.92
with, but Sinem is the ancient
word for China or basically
00:53:47.92\00:53:52.93
Asia.
00:53:52.93\00:53:53.60
The word Sinem refers to China.
00:53:53.60\00:53:56.83
So, today, in our modern
language, you may hear on the
00:53:56.83\00:54:00.84
news about American Sino talks.
00:54:00.84\00:54:03.37
S-I-N-O.
00:54:03.37\00:54:05.11
Sino talks.
00:54:05.11\00:54:05.97
Well, Sino refers to China.
00:54:05.97\00:54:08.01
Or, you look up in
the dictionary, sinology.
00:54:08.01\00:54:10.41
S-I-nology, sinology, it is
the study of things Chinese.
00:54:10.41\00:54:14.85
Sinem refers directly to the
people of China and what this
00:54:14.85\00:54:19.95
scripture is basically saying,
you guys, well, two things here,
00:54:19.95\00:54:23.02
number one, don't you find
it fascinating that China is
00:54:23.02\00:54:27.13
referenced in scripture as a
people group, as a nation that
00:54:27.13\00:54:32.60
the Messiah has
particular interest in.
00:54:32.60\00:54:34.50
Jesus loves the people of these
far off lands outside of Israel,
00:54:34.50\00:54:40.04
and don't you find it
interesting, secondly, that the
00:54:40.04\00:54:44.35
prophecy is basically saying
that when this Messiah comes,
00:54:44.35\00:54:47.05
when this Savior comes, he's not
just for one people group, he's
00:54:47.05\00:54:51.05
for everybody.
00:54:51.05\00:54:52.55
Jesus is the one who is the
savior of all mankind and he's
00:54:52.55\00:54:57.99
coming for everybody.
00:54:57.99\00:54:59.46
>>DAVID: The New Testament calls
him that, the Savior of the
00:54:59.46\00:55:00.56
world.
00:55:00.56\00:55:01.76
>>TY: That's right.
00:55:01.76\00:55:02.43
Powerful, love that prophecy.
00:55:02.43\00:55:03.97
>>JAMES: Okay, Psalms 87.
00:55:03.97\00:55:05.67
This is one that I think is
powerful, too, and it just says
00:55:05.67\00:55:08.60
the same thing
00:55:08.60\00:55:09.64
-- >>DAVID: Speak into
the camera, James, please.
00:55:09.64\00:55:11.14
>>JAMES: Psalm 87, you
wanna see my glasses, don't you?
00:55:11.14\00:55:14.21
>>DAVID: Wanna see the glasses.
00:55:14.21\00:55:15.44
>>JAMES: His foundation's in the
holy mountains, the Lord loves
00:55:15.44\00:55:18.65
the gates of Zion more than
all of the dwellings of Jacob.
00:55:18.65\00:55:21.75
Glorious things are spoken of
thee, oh city of God, see verse
00:55:21.75\00:55:24.49
4, I will make mention of Rahab
and Babylon to them that know
00:55:24.49\00:55:30.13
me.
00:55:30.13\00:55:31.33
Behold, Philistia, and Tyre,
with Ethiopia, this man was born
00:55:31.33\00:55:34.63
there.
00:55:34.63\00:55:35.86
And of Zion it shall be said,
this man was born in her, and
00:55:35.86\00:55:38.00
the highest himself
shall establish her.
00:55:38.00\00:55:40.87
The Lord, verse 6, shall count,
when he writes up the people,
00:55:40.87\00:55:44.31
that this man was born there.
00:55:44.31\00:55:45.97
Selah.
00:55:45.97\00:55:46.44
Think about this.
00:55:46.44\00:55:47.68
And here's the point that I get
out of this, because when Ty was
00:55:47.68\00:55:49.68
reading those verses, I
was thinking, that is really
00:55:49.68\00:55:51.35
incredible, verse 6 said,
I'll be a light to the Gentiles.
00:55:51.35\00:55:54.02
And what God does in the
context of this is he takes into
00:55:54.02\00:55:58.65
consideration where we were
born, Rahab, where she was born,
00:55:58.65\00:56:02.62
the Babylonian, where he was
born, the Ethiopian, where he
00:56:02.62\00:56:04.86
was born.
00:56:04.86\00:56:05.49
You were born in Zion.
00:56:05.49\00:56:07.00
Jesus comes and he looks at the
Samaritan woman and he looks at
00:56:07.00\00:56:11.03
the Cyrophanician woman,
and he says, wow, this is, these
00:56:11.03\00:56:13.77
people, from the east to
the west, they're gonna come.
00:56:13.77\00:56:15.90
God takes him, so we say, well,
they didn't know the law, they
00:56:15.90\00:56:19.07
didn't know the name of Jesus,
this is what we've been talking
00:56:19.07\00:56:20.71
about.
00:56:20.71\00:56:21.91
They didn't know the X, Ys,
and the Zs of theology, but God
00:56:21.91\00:56:24.65
doesn't look at it that way.
00:56:24.65\00:56:25.88
He considers where they're born,
he considers light they've been
00:56:25.88\00:56:28.65
given, and whether their
conscience is bearing witness
00:56:28.65\00:56:31.42
and they are becoming a law unto
themselves, and that context,
00:56:31.42\00:56:34.86
they are judged savable.
00:56:34.86\00:56:37.46
>>JEFFREY: So, do we
need God to be moral?
00:56:37.46\00:56:40.03
>>DAVID: You have
to read James 1:17.
00:56:40.03\00:56:42.70
>>JEFFREY: That
was my setup for that.
00:56:42.70\00:56:45.20
>>DAVID: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
00:56:45.20\00:56:46.53
I'm sorry.
00:56:46.53\00:56:47.20
>>JEFFREY: That was the setup.
00:56:47.20\00:56:48.37
>>TY: Well, you only have a
minute and 30 seconds so you
00:56:48.37\00:56:50.21
better set it
up and read, buddy.
00:56:50.21\00:56:51.74
>>DAVID: He's like
doing this Latin slow thing.
00:56:51.74\00:56:54.04
>>JEFFREY: Every good gift,
James 1:17, and every perfect
00:56:54.04\00:56:58.58
gift is from above and comes
down from the Father of lights,
00:56:58.58\00:57:02.28
with whom there's no
variation or shadow of turning.
00:57:02.28\00:57:04.79
Every good gift
comes from above.
00:57:04.79\00:57:06.65
If morality is good, every good
thing that anybody does, whether
00:57:06.65\00:57:11.29
they are a believer or a
nonbeliever, whether they
00:57:11.29\00:57:14.36
profess the name of Jesus,
whether they don't, whether
00:57:14.36\00:57:17.27
they're in church, whether
they're out, whether they love
00:57:17.27\00:57:19.07
religion, whether
they hate religion.
00:57:19.07\00:57:20.30
Every good thing that we do is
a gift that's extended from the
00:57:20.30\00:57:24.01
Father and we're just a conduit
through which it is expressed in
00:57:24.01\00:57:26.71
this world, right?
00:57:26.71\00:57:27.94
So, I think the answer to the
question is yes, we need God in
00:57:27.94\00:57:33.21
order to be moral in the sense
that morality is grounded, it's
00:57:33.21\00:57:38.45
not something that God speaks
and invents, it's grounded in
00:57:38.45\00:57:41.29
his very character.
00:57:41.29\00:57:42.49
>>DAVID: Sense of Grace,
page 26, Christ is the source of
00:57:42.49\00:57:46.70
every right impulse.
00:57:46.70\00:57:47.73
>>TY: Isn't that something?
00:57:47.73\00:57:49.63
>>DAVID: He's the one.
00:57:49.63\00:57:50.83
Every good gift, I love the
way you did that, if morality is
00:57:50.83\00:57:53.34
good...
00:57:53.34\00:57:54.17
>>JEFFREY: It comes from God.
00:57:54.17\00:57:55.37
>>JAMES: And that's what it
means when he says that I am the
00:57:55.37\00:57:57.14
way, the truth, and the life.
00:57:57.14\00:57:57.87
>>JEFFREY: Amen.
00:57:57.87\00:57:58.97
>>DAVID: Which is a funny
way to spin that text around.
00:57:58.97\00:58:01.34
>>TY: Yeah, he's the way,
the truth, and the life in the
00:58:01.34\00:58:05.88
larger sense that he is always
the way, the truth, and the
00:58:05.88\00:58:11.05
life, to anybody who encounters
the way, the truth, and the life
00:58:11.05\00:58:14.22
in any way they encounter the
way, the truth, and the life.
00:58:14.22\00:58:18.39
>>JEFFREY: That's good.
00:58:18.39\00:58:19.79
[Music]
00:58:19.79\00:58:29.84
[Music]
00:58:29.84\00:58:44.69