Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000030A
|
00:21 In this conversation,
00:22 we're gonna tackle a pretty complex question 00:25 and its related to our previous conversation 00:28 where we came from 00:30 was with the question if God is love, 00:32 why is there so much suffering in the world, 00:35 and there's gonna be some overlap here 00:36 but this is a necessary subject. 00:39 The question now is, 00:40 if God is in control, are we really free? 00:44 And this is the question we have to ask 00:46 because there is in the world of philosophy, 00:50 in naturalism or materialism, 00:53 there's a materialistic determinism 00:56 that says that every single thing 00:57 that happens couldn't happen otherwise, 01:00 then it did happen because of the big bang. 01:03 Everything traces back to that one event 01:06 that created the causal chain that produced all outcomes 01:11 and that's materialistic or atheistic determinism, 01:16 but there is also atheistic determinism. 01:21 There's the view that the sovereignty of God 01:25 dictates every single event that ever occurs 01:29 so that omnipotence is viewed as omni control. 01:33 In other words, if God is all powerful, 01:36 therefore nothing ever occurs 01:38 that God Himself did not choreographed, 01:40 determine or make happen. 01:42 He's like the cosmic micro manager. 01:45 Yeah. 01:47 A big control freak in the sky. 01:48 And some people may or have referred to that 01:51 as the blueprint. 01:52 Augustinian blueprint. 01:53 Yeah, it's like the blueprint worldview 01:55 where there's a blueprint for every single thing 01:58 that's been predetermined and planned out. 02:01 So how do we approach this subject? 02:05 Well, first of all, do you resonate with it at all? 02:09 Do you resonate with a worldview 02:11 or a theological orientation that says 02:15 God is in control of everything that happens? 02:17 Well, one of the things I think it's important for us 02:19 to say from the onset is this, 02:22 because so many people have used this 02:23 in a positive way to, you know, 02:28 excuse me for using this phrase, 02:29 but to find a purpose driven life 02:31 or a purpose in life, and therefore 02:33 when they've dealt with bad situations, 02:36 they've tried to say, 02:37 well, no, God is behind this 02:39 and therefore there must be some purpose in this. 02:41 It's a way of coping. 02:43 It's a way of coping and it's a religious idea, 02:47 a religious way of coping. 02:48 And what I try to say right from the onset is this, 02:50 because I had this experience when I was in Africa, 02:53 I was counseling this young lady 02:54 and she was suicidal. 02:56 She was suicidal having migraine headaches 03:00 and when she... 03:01 when we got into this counseling session, 03:03 she told me her life story or experience. 03:06 When she was a young lady, 03:07 she had been sexually abused by her uncle 03:11 and the issue was in her life was 03:13 that she had never talked to anyone about this 03:16 and so when we were counseling, this was. 03:18 So I said, you know, have you talked to pastor now? 03:19 Have you talked to pastor now? 03:21 I said, well, have you prayed about, 03:22 have you talked to God? 03:23 Why would I talk to Him about it? 03:25 He's the one that made it happen. 03:27 She said it like that? 03:28 She said it like that and it was and by the way, 03:32 I had to say to her, 03:33 I know that's what you just heard 03:35 in that last sermon that we listened to. 03:38 That's what I had to say to her. 03:39 But I said, "I would like to share with you." 03:41 A sermon that you had preached? 03:42 No. Okay. 03:43 It was preached at the place where I was preaching also. 03:46 And I said, but I would like to share with you 03:47 a different option 03:49 and basically, the option I shared with her 03:51 without going into detail was Romans 8:28, 03:53 "All things work together for good 03:56 to them that love God and are called 03:57 according to His purpose." 03:59 Not all things that happen are God's will. 04:01 There's a lot of evil that happens on this world, 04:03 but God can overrule the evil 04:05 that is taking place on planet earth 04:07 and He can bring good out of it. 04:08 And I said that's one step away from what you're talking about. 04:11 And as I explained this to her, 04:12 tears begin developing in her eyes. 04:16 She was sobbing, and I just want to tell you, 04:18 it's just a powerful, powerful experience. 04:20 That girl completely, was completely transformed 04:23 by the gospel, by the good news. 04:24 It's liberating. 04:26 Ended up going to college, we sent her a Bible, 04:28 she ended up just falling in love with Jesus Christ 04:31 and her life just went 04:32 in a completely different direction. 04:33 What you say, you say it's liberating. 04:35 But I've had conversations with people 04:39 who the moment you say that no, God is not in control 04:42 of every single thing that happens, 04:45 it's not liberating for them, it's threatening. 04:47 And they feel like 04:48 well, then there's no reason for my pain? 04:51 There's no... 04:52 What's behind this? 04:54 How come, I was quite satisfied believing 04:59 that God had some plan or purpose or blueprint 05:02 or something He was up to, 05:05 in making this happen to me 05:07 and now you're telling me that... 05:10 There's no such thing, yeah. 05:11 That God isn't in control of everything? 05:15 Do we need to just say in a blanket manner, 05:19 God is not in control 05:20 or is that overshooting the mark in another direction? 05:22 It's overshooting mark in other direction. 05:23 Does God control anything that happens? 05:25 He overrules everything. 05:27 I believe, He overrules everything. 05:28 So in a sense, we all are understanding 05:30 and recognizing that God is alive and well 05:34 and He is in control of planet earth 05:36 but in another sense, we're recognizing the opposite, 05:39 and that is that there are things 05:40 happening on planet earth 05:42 that are distinctly unrelated to God 05:44 and not part of God's will. 05:46 I think that there is a real trickiness 05:48 even in the way that we've ordered the question 05:50 and this is, this has come up several times 05:52 in the way that we've ordered other questions 05:54 and that's what I like about these questions 05:56 'cause they're thorny, 05:57 they're thorny, they're difficult, 05:59 even the questions themselves are problematic. 06:01 So with this as a case in point, 06:03 if God is in control, then are we really free? 06:06 Well, there is a sense 06:08 in which you could describe God's being in control 06:10 that I would totally disagree with biblically, 06:13 and then there's a sense 06:14 in which you could describe God's being in control 06:18 with which I would totally agree. 06:20 So maybe we should sort of define 06:23 our terms there a little bit, in what sense 06:25 is God in control? 06:26 Like, for example, 06:28 if I decide to pick this up right now, 06:30 and then I decide to set it down. 06:32 Okay, that was an action that just took place. 06:34 It took place in time, 06:35 it took place in space, it has in some, 06:38 you know, miniscule way altered the person that I am. 06:41 In other words, 06:42 that is something that happens now. 06:44 It's a part of human history. Okay. 06:46 Okay, did God, was God in control of that? 06:50 Is that something God did 06:51 or is that something that David did? 06:52 'Cause I'm operating under the decided impression 06:55 that that was a choice that I made. 06:57 When we were just here in the back 06:58 to try to decide what, you know, shirts we wear 07:00 because if we all wear dark, 07:01 or we all wear light or whatever, 07:03 and I put on this beautiful shirt, 07:05 you notice how beautiful it is. 07:07 I'm under the impression 07:08 that this was a choice that I made. 07:11 Yeah, but the deterministic world view... 07:12 That was your choice, wasn't it? 07:14 Yeah, the deterministic world view says 07:16 that you're under the illusion... 07:18 Exactly. That you made a free choice. 07:21 The fact is, I'm not saying the fact is, 07:23 I'm saying that in the deterministic worldview, 07:26 they would say, the fact is 07:29 that your apparent choice was just that, it was apparent. 07:33 You didn't make the choice because God is sovereign, 07:38 God is in control, 07:40 God is omnipotent 07:41 and that equates to 07:43 God has predetermined every single micro detail 07:48 that ever occurs. 07:50 It's all choreographed ahead of time 07:52 and you didn't really make that decision at all. 07:55 So what would you... 07:57 Is there anything to John 3:16 on this question, 08:01 for whosoever believes in Him, 08:05 that sounds to me to contradict this, 08:08 the notion that, that everything 08:11 is controlled by God and that we, 08:12 that we're under the delusion, right? 08:15 Yeah. 08:17 God so loved the world that He gave, 08:18 and whosoever believes in Him 08:21 should not perish but have everlasting life. 08:23 So, it, to me, that sounds a lot like 08:26 what you were just saying, 08:27 you have the real, very real capacity 08:31 to make an exercise of your will, 08:33 to make a decision. 08:35 That's not pre-manipulated by God. 08:37 I agree. I agree with that. 08:39 I'm just gonna say that for me, John 3:16, a great text, 08:42 needs to be brought to the table literally, 08:45 but I feel like it's down the pike. 08:47 I feel like it's like three turns down the road. 08:50 I want to ask you the question, Ty, 08:51 I want to put you right on the spot here 08:53 'cause you know more about this than I do just straight up. 08:56 Is the way that you articulated 08:59 the theistic determinism or that last time 09:01 that you just were speaking about determinism, 09:03 were you speaking primarily about 09:04 like materialistic determinism or theistic determinism 09:07 with every event being choreographed? 09:09 You were saying theistic. 09:11 I was referring to theistic. 09:13 Okay. So here's my question. Yeah. 09:14 Do you feel like that's a fair? Is that accurate? 09:17 Is that an accurate way of characterizing? 09:20 I don't want to say caricaturing, the way 09:23 that a determinist would, in other words, 09:26 like accounts more self, is that fair? 09:28 I think it's bigger than that for them. 09:29 I think it's more scientific. I think. 09:31 That's all the question I'm asking. 09:32 Yeah. 09:34 Well, the way I understand it 09:35 just for some philosophical and historical background. 09:39 First of all, the idea of determinism 09:41 is not a Christian idea in its origins 09:47 and it's not a biblical idea. 09:49 This hails back to Greek philosophy 09:53 and you have a succession of ideas 09:56 that were passed down 09:57 and the basic lineage of the idea 10:00 is you begin with Plato, 10:02 and Plato conceives of God as absolute Being. 10:07 And by that he means that God is really all there is. 10:10 There is no such thing as a autonomous creature 10:15 or being that exists adjacent to God 10:18 as a free will being. 10:19 Anybody that looks like 10:21 they're existing adjacent to God 10:24 is an extension of God 10:27 projecting out into the world, 10:32 what He's conceived in Himself. 10:34 So for example, in Greek philosophy, 10:37 if the Greeks would win a war, 10:39 they would attribute it to the will of the gods. 10:41 If they lost a war, 10:42 they would attribute it to the will of the gods. 10:44 And the secret, 10:46 the psychological background of this is 10:48 it advocates the individual of responsibility. 10:50 Right. 10:51 If a man is married to a woman, 10:54 it's destiny that he be with her 10:57 until he doesn't want to be with her anymore, 10:58 and the moment he doesn't want to be with her anymore, 11:01 and then he enters into a relationship 11:03 with another woman, 11:05 he attributes it to destiny or fate. 11:08 I was supposed to be with you, but not anymore. 11:12 Now I'm supposed to be with you. 11:13 And you see how, how nicely that abdicates the man 11:17 of any shame or guilt. 11:18 He doesn't have to deal with himself on the matter, 11:20 because he conceives of himself as being acted upon 11:24 by an external force that is bigger than himself. 11:27 Okay. 11:28 Okay, so that's the Greek philosophical base 11:31 and then, Aristotle who was a student of Plato 11:34 came along and said, 11:36 "Well, if that's true, then God is conceived 11:37 as what Plato called the unmoved mover." 11:40 God is forever Himself, unmoved, 11:44 nothing external to God acts upon God 11:47 to produce response in God. 11:50 But while God is unmoved, 11:52 He never experiences emotion or response. 11:55 He's constantly the mover. 11:57 So if anything happens 11:59 whether you decide you have shredded wheat 12:01 or Cheerios for breakfast tomorrow morning, 12:04 God predetermined 12:06 that you're going to have shredded wheat, 12:07 that's what you're going to have. 12:09 Yeah. 12:10 Okay, so that comes to Aristotle, 12:11 but here's where it gets into Christianity. 12:14 A lot of people aren't aware of this history 12:17 but Augustine, arguably the most influential theologian 12:21 in Christian history, 12:23 Augustine was not raised a Christian. 12:26 He was a student of Greek philosophy 12:30 and then converted in adulthood to Christianity 12:33 and he brought his Greek philosophy 12:36 into his Christianity and he was the one, 12:38 Augustine was the one 12:41 who then wrapped biblical Christian language 12:45 around the Greek ideas and said, 12:47 "Okay, Paul speaks of predestination here. 12:50 That must be the same thing 12:53 that Plato and Aristotle were talking about." 12:56 So then you have this idea that God predetermines 13:00 from eternity past, 13:02 who's gonna be saved and who's going to be lost. 13:05 And then, hundreds of years later, 13:07 sorry, this is taking so long, 13:09 but there's no background, hundreds of years later, 13:12 you have John Calvin of Reformation fame. 13:17 And John Calvin is a student of the writings of Augustine 13:22 and he's the one that most fine tunes 13:25 the idea of theistic determinism 13:30 or predestination 13:32 and he goes so far, but Augustine did this too 13:36 and this is getting to what your real question was. 13:39 They went so far as to not only say that, 13:42 that God predetermines who's saved and last, 13:46 but God predetermines everything. 13:48 If a little girl is raped, 13:51 this is a part of God's sovereign plan. 13:54 If a car accident occurs, 13:56 if somebody is diagnosed with a disease, 13:58 whatever happens, it's all happening 14:01 within the parameters of the sovereign will of God. 14:06 The moment something is allowed 14:08 to happen outside of the will of God, 14:11 the assumption is, well, God's not powerful then, 14:13 God's not all powerful. 14:14 So, so yes, in that view, 14:16 God controls literally everything that happens. 14:22 There's some kind of divine reason 14:24 behind everything, 14:26 the good, the bad, the ugly, the otherwise, 14:28 anything that happens and it's a very dark idea, 14:32 it's difficult to conceive 14:34 of any more dehumanizing idea 14:40 than for me to look across the table at Jeffrey 14:44 and to conceive of Jeffrey 14:46 as basically a non entity, a shell 14:50 of an apparent autonomous being who makes choices, 14:54 but to in my philosophical and theological outlook 14:57 to basically say, 14:59 no, you don't actually exit adjacent to me, 15:03 adjacent to God, in relation to anybody. 15:06 You're an extension of the will of God. 15:07 You make no choices, 15:09 everything that happens to you, 15:10 everything that ultimately happens 15:12 in your destiny God predetermined. 15:14 And in a sense, it sounds like an attempt 15:15 to simplify the chaos of the world 15:20 'cause that's a simple answer. 15:21 That's a very clear cut one liner. 15:24 Yeah. 15:25 But I think we would all affirm at this table 15:29 that the world is complex and it's not that simple. 15:32 It's not that cut and dried, that there's a war, 15:37 that we're in the midst of a war, 15:39 I think you said something about, 15:40 we're in enemy occupied territory, 15:42 and that it doesn't work that way 15:44 that there are clearly things as a real description 15:46 that take place on a daily basis 15:48 that are not part of God's. 15:50 In fact, God has to enter and intervene. 15:54 Why would God have to intervene in anything 15:56 if everything was an extension of His plan? 15:59 Right. 16:00 I think we could accurately say 16:02 that God has macro control, 16:06 but not micro control. 16:09 That ultimately God's principles 16:11 will trump the principles of evil, 16:13 that good will ultimately overcome evil 16:16 that love trumps hate. 16:19 So God has an overall plan. 16:22 Yes. 16:23 At the end He's finessing and navigating 16:27 through the evil bringing good out of this bad. 16:31 Yeah, He's navigating forward through the evil 16:33 to an ultimate end of victory. 16:35 But He's not micromanaging every detail along the way 16:40 so that every bit of pain and suffering 16:43 that goes on in the world 16:44 is traceable to God predetermining 16:48 that that happened to you right then and right there 16:51 for some, for some reason. 16:52 So, macro control, but not micro control. 16:56 Another way of saying that would simply be to say 17:00 the fact that God controls some things 17:03 doesn't mean that God controls all things. 17:07 So we're not saying that God's not involved, right? 17:09 God is. 17:11 We're not implying that God is not involved. 17:12 God is in all. He's fully involved. 17:14 We're not even saying He's not sovereign, 17:15 He's fully sovereign. Yeah. 17:18 But He's sovereign in love. 17:23 In other words, 17:24 God is all powerful, 17:27 but His all mighty, omnipotent power 17:31 coexists with His love. 17:36 He has a particular will and that will is, 17:40 God chooses sovereignly for you and me to be free. 17:44 That's God's sovereign will, 17:46 and that has all the possible upsides and downsides 17:51 that come with that actual freedom so. 17:56 I think of a good illustration of this in relation to us 17:59 is parents and children, 18:01 I think it's a great illustration 18:02 because we want to control their lives, 18:05 we want to, you know, 18:07 we want to live in a certain place. 18:08 We want them to go to a certain school, 18:10 we want them to... 18:11 Yeah, you are going through that. 18:13 Grow up learning certain things 18:14 and we want them to make certain decisions 18:15 and while we have the power to do that, we don't, 18:19 we better not embrace it. 18:20 If we do that, we're gonna ruin them. 18:22 We're gonna take away their individuality 18:24 and we're gonna make them who we are 18:26 and we're gonna make them susceptible 18:28 to be controlled by somebody else 18:30 once they come out from under over roof. 18:31 Yeah, in other words, 18:33 we could control them but we shouldn't. 18:34 No. Yeah. 18:35 Man, this is good and after the break, 18:38 we'll just keep unpacking this subject. 18:48 The Bible is a big book. 18:50 It's composed of 66 smaller books, 18:53 written by more than 40 different authors. 18:57 It's easy to get bogged down 18:58 in all the genealogies, ancient history, 19:01 and intersecting characters with unpronounceable names. 19:05 And yet the Bible is full of rich and powerful truths 19:09 that all of us need to understand. 19:13 When you love to have an experienced tour guide 19:16 take you on a step by step journey 19:18 through some of the most vital 19:19 and beautiful truths contained in the Bible, 19:22 well now it's here. 19:24 It's called Truth Link. 19:26 Truth Link is a groundbreaking new series 19:30 of easy to understand Bible study guides 19:33 that thousands of people 19:35 around the world are raving about. 19:37 Why all the excitement? 19:39 Because Truth Link systematically unfold 19:43 27 life transforming biblical topics, 19:47 but not as a list of dry theological facts, 19:51 rather, Truth Link takes you 19:54 on an engaging biblical expedition 19:57 demonstrating how every truth of scripture 20:00 reveals some facet of God's beautiful character. 20:05 Truth Link isn't just information. 20:08 It's a spiritual journey 20:09 that will radically impact your life. 20:13 We would really love for you to have 20:15 these Bible study guides 20:16 because we know they will be a blessing to you. 20:20 You can get them by visiting truthlink.org 20:24 or by calling 541-988-3333. 20:42 In reflecting on the first segment 20:44 of this conversation, 20:46 I think we were all sort of saying in the break, 20:48 and I was thinking that there is a sense 20:50 in which this conversation 20:52 you started by saying you're exactly correct. 20:53 This is a complex question. 20:55 If God is in control, how do we say it? 20:58 If God is in control...? 21:00 Yeah, if God is in control, are we really free? 21:02 And in the course of that first segment, 21:04 we need to let the viewers know, 21:06 those that are listening in to this conversation, 21:09 that we recognize that there is a complexity, 21:12 theological, philosophical, even historical 21:14 to the things that we're talking about. 21:16 But what we're trying to do in an hour long program 21:19 is to set a tone to talk about something 21:22 and this is, I think, the key. 21:24 That is a hugely influential philosophical idea 21:28 that many people might not even be familiar with 21:31 as a hugely influential philosophical idea, 21:34 namely determinism. 21:35 Right. 21:36 In other words, there are people 21:38 that are walking the streets right now 21:39 that have either watched a movie 21:41 or seen a sitcom, or read a book 21:42 or a magazine article, or heard a story 21:43 and they and it's been, 21:45 well God or where was God or God did, 21:47 and it just becomes a part of our modern psyche 21:51 to some degree that we are being acted upon 21:54 by the gods not in this case, 21:55 Zeus or Poseidon or Mercury or whatever but God. 22:00 Like the insurance clause. 22:01 Like the insurance clause, okay, exactly. 22:03 And yet many people outside of this conversation 22:09 would be hugely influenced by this, 22:11 but not even aware of the language, 22:13 the history and things 22:14 that we were just quickly sort of putting. 22:17 But I think we should summarize by saying, 22:20 we're really dealing with a picture of God 22:23 that is one in which He is an absolute control, 22:27 micromanaging control was the language that we use, 22:30 or He has relinquished to some degree 22:36 control to a greater end. 22:38 Yeah, to a greater end. 22:39 And for me, the questions would be, 22:42 first of all, is this true? 22:44 Is it true that God is in absolute control 22:47 when we kind of address that? 22:49 And then the second question is, 22:50 if God has to some degree relinquished control, why, 22:56 and in what sense has He relinquished control? 22:59 And I know that what you said, James, is so true 23:01 that when people are going through 23:03 the vicissitudes of life, 23:04 the ups, the downs, the difficulties, the trials, 23:06 the cancers, the diseases, the deaths, 23:08 we want to console ourselves 23:10 by finding some purpose, some meaning, 23:13 some intentionality in it, and we feel consoled by it. 23:18 But the question is, is everything that happens, 23:22 you quoted Romans 8:28, 23:24 does that mean that God is in control 23:25 of every circumstance? 23:27 We're saying no. No. 23:28 Okay, so then when is He in control? 23:29 When is He not in control? 23:31 And is it even possible to tell the difference? 23:33 And you also asked earlier you said, 23:36 what is that greater end that that He's aiming for? 23:40 I think Jesus if we accept the premise 23:43 without going into the details to demonstrate 23:45 why we believe this is so 23:47 that Jesus was God in the flesh. 23:49 Okay, here's a picture of God in the flesh 23:52 in Matthew Chapter 23. 23:56 Jesus sitting on a hillside overlooking Jerusalem, 23:59 Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets 24:04 and stones those who are sent to her, 24:06 how often I wanted to gather your children together 24:11 as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings 24:14 and you were not willing. 24:17 So, in this scripture is a picture of God. 24:21 This is God looking at a human situation, 24:24 the city of Jerusalem namely, and God is saying, 24:28 I wanted X, but you didn't want X. 24:33 You weren't willing to go where I wanted to take you. 24:38 This is Almighty God. 24:40 This is omnipotent God, this is sovereign God 24:43 and the answer to your question, 24:45 what's the greater end, what's the ultimate end? 24:48 I think one way we can say it, 24:49 and there are lots of ways to say it, 24:51 one way you could say it 24:53 is that God wants me to want Him. 24:58 God wants me to want what He wants, 25:00 He doesn't want to be the one 25:03 who wants a situation and then shove me into it, 25:09 force me into, manipulate me into it. 25:11 So what's the greater end 25:14 to which God in holding His power in reserve? 25:19 What's He up to? 25:20 He's up to this. 25:22 He wants me to want. 25:24 What He wants. 25:25 Yeah, not because and we need to clarify. 25:27 He doesn't want me to want what He wants, 25:30 because He's stubborn, opinionated and dictatorial. 25:34 He wants me to want what He wants 25:36 because what He wants. 25:38 It's in your best interest anyway. 25:39 It's in my best interest. Yeah. 25:40 You know, it's like, 25:42 it's like somebody has said that God can't, 25:46 God can't give me happiness apart from Him 25:49 because no such thing exists. 25:50 Yeah. 25:52 There is no happiness to be had apart from God 25:56 because in God is the recipe, the principles for happiness. 26:03 So He doesn't want me. 26:05 That's why in the Bible, 26:07 God is described as a jealous God. 26:10 And we look at jealousy in a very self centered way. 26:13 I'm jealous because you know 26:15 that person is flirting with my wife. 26:16 I'm jealous, really for my feelings, 26:18 but God is jealous for us, because of us. 26:21 He's jealous because He sees things 26:24 that are happening to us 26:26 that He doesn't want to happen to us 26:27 and so His jealousy is in... 26:29 Not self centered, it's other centered. 26:30 No, it's others centered. 26:32 I'm jealous over you with godly jealousy 26:34 because I want you to have those things 26:37 I've always wanted you to have and experience those things 26:39 I've always wanted you to experience, 26:41 and you are not willing to go in that direction. 26:43 You were gonna say something. 26:44 Well, I... 26:46 Yeah, just as you guys were talking, 26:47 I was reading from Genesis Chapter 2 26:49 and I was just thinking, you're in Jesus, right? 26:51 You're in Matthew and I was thinking, 26:53 well, what was the deal from day one 26:56 like at the gate with the kind of world 26:58 that God designed and created 27:00 in regard to His control or His sovereignty over it 27:04 and our involvement in it, 27:06 and I just read this quote, not to make some big point, 27:08 but this is really cool verse here. 27:10 I never noticed this one detail, 27:11 it says when in the Garden of Eden 27:13 and God's creating it says, 27:15 "And out of the ground, 27:16 the Lord God formed every beast of the field 27:18 and every bird of the air and brought them to Adam, 27:22 to see what he would call them." 27:24 Yep. Yeah, that's beautiful. 27:26 And whatever Adam called each living creature 27:29 that's what it was called. 27:30 That was his name. Yeah. 27:31 So I just, I think that's pretty cool is that God... 27:34 This may be a trivial example of this 27:37 but God creates this beautiful world, 27:39 this beautiful realm in which we exist 27:43 and the representative of the human race, right, 27:46 Adam, He puts Adam there and He says, 27:48 Adam and He brings all these animals. 27:50 He says, "So, Adam, 27:51 what do you think we should call these?" 27:54 So He's right there. 27:55 He's bringing Adam 27:57 into the decision making process he's in. 28:00 I wonder if when God created this world, 28:05 that brought Him pleasure because He exercised his will 28:08 as God brought something into existence 28:10 and it brought Him happiness and pleasure. 28:13 If God controls everything, 28:15 and we're not allowed to make any decisions, 28:17 He would be stripping us 28:19 from that happiness and pleasure 28:20 because we would have no potential for that, 28:22 'cause there'd be no effect from our actions. 28:25 You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. 28:26 Whereas here, Adam is invited to experience the pleasure 28:31 of exercising his will. 28:32 And just, it's something so simple, 28:34 so trivial as naming the animals. 28:36 Anyway, I just thought that was kind of cool. 28:37 It's right there in the garden. 28:39 I encountered the fact that the universe is not one 28:42 which God controls everything. 28:43 Well, just a few verses before that in Genesis 2:16, 28:46 one of my favorite verses in Genesis 28:47 that's along those same lines. 28:49 It's where God says 28:50 to the early couple, Adam and Eve, He says, 28:52 of every tree of the garden, 28:54 you may freely eat, 28:57 freely, to me the insertion 28:58 of that word freely there is huge 29:00 because God is saying you're free, you're free, 29:02 here's all of these trees, 29:03 we don't know how many there were. 29:04 But let's say there were 5000 fruit trees, 29:06 various varieties from which to choose. 29:09 And God says to every one of those trees, 29:11 the answer is yes. 29:12 It's a yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, 29:15 He says, but of this one tree, verse 17, 29:17 just don't eat of this one. 29:19 So the ratio of yeses to noes in God's governance 29:23 is 5000:1 or whatever, 2000:1 29:26 or however many there are. 29:27 A million to one. 29:29 God's freedom, as we've talked about in the past, 29:32 and we're gonna come back to this over and over again 29:34 in the hard question series, 29:35 is that freedom is absolutely fundamental 29:38 to God's governance of the universe, 29:40 because it's fundamental to His own character. 29:42 Yes, that's the key. 29:44 It's fundamental to who He is. 29:46 And if that's true, 29:47 then this micromanage dictatorial, Augustinian, 29:50 Hellenistic view of God, 29:53 it's gone, the insurance clause God 29:55 who's causing and that and this and that 29:57 and you're gonna put on that shirt, that's gone. 29:59 Right. 30:00 But there's still that overruling. 30:02 Yeah, God's still sovereign. 30:03 In fact, let me just read these verses to you. 30:04 This is really powerful to me in this context. 30:06 Daniel Chapter 10, 30:07 Daniel's been praying for three weeks, 30:10 he's been fasting and flicking himself 30:12 and praying for an answer to an understanding of prophecy 30:16 that he got in previous chapters. 30:18 He wants to know more 30:19 and he's praying for three weeks, 30:20 and there's no answer, no answer, 30:22 no answer, no answer, no answer. 30:23 And then finally, in verse 12, Gabriel comes to him 30:26 and Gabriel says to him, Do not fear Daniel, 30:29 for from the first day 30:30 that you set your heart to understand 30:31 and humble yourself before God, 30:33 your words were heard. 30:34 So as soon as he prayed, the very first day he prayed, 30:36 his words were heard. 30:37 So what Gabriel is saying to Daniel, 30:40 "Listen, God hears and God answers your prayers." 30:42 But notice what he goes on to say, he says, 30:46 but the prince and he goes on saying, 30:48 I've come for your word. 30:50 So God answers them, 30:51 but the prince of the Kingdom of Persia 30:52 withstood me 21 days, that's three weeks, 30:55 that's the whole time, 30:56 withstood me 21 days and behold Michael, 30:59 one of the chief princess came to help me, 31:01 for I've been left alone with these kings of Persia. 31:06 Basically, what he is saying is God heard your prayer 31:08 and God answered your prayer the day that you prayed. 31:11 But there's this other force, 31:14 the powers of the Prince of Persia, 31:16 the Prince of Persia is, 31:17 these guys were the kings of this earth, the power, 31:20 the prince of the prince is Satan. 31:21 He's the prince of this world. 31:23 So he's withstanding 31:25 and what's really interesting about this 31:26 is the thing that Daniel wants to understand 31:29 the prophecies that Daniel were given was given. 31:32 These prophecies are God's will, God's purpose, 31:37 God is going to carry out in a sovereign sense, 31:40 He's gonna carry out these prophecies 31:42 but Satan is withstanding Him. 31:43 Satan is trying to stop. 31:45 The prince of this world 31:47 is trying to stop these prophecies 31:48 from being fulfilled. 31:50 So the point I'm trying to make is this. 31:53 There are even things that God is in control of 31:55 in the sense that He's carrying out His will 31:58 in these prophecies 31:59 that Satan is still withstanding him 32:01 that God is coming in with reinforcements 32:03 to make sure that these things happen, 32:05 that they are done in a way 32:07 that is in harmony with His will and His purposes 32:10 and Satan is still trying to come in there. 32:11 We're seeing this conflict taking place 32:13 between these powers of good and powers of evil. 32:16 So in the context of Bible prophecy, 32:19 you have this incredible picture 32:22 of this conflict taking place 32:23 between what God wants 32:25 and the opposition to rebellion. 32:28 We ended our whole last conversation 32:30 about if God is so good, 32:31 why is there so much suffering? 32:32 On that note, we ended it on the note 32:34 of the scriptural motif is one of conflict. 32:39 To me the way 32:40 I'm compartmentalizing the four conversations 32:42 that we've had up to this point, 32:43 I see two major themes emerging, 32:46 freedom and conflict that these are, 32:49 these are macro themes 32:50 for understanding what's taking place 32:52 not just in Scripture but in the world. 32:54 That's a great summary. 32:55 We have freedom. 32:56 God has given freedom, He's granted freedom, 32:58 He loves freedom, He values freedom, 33:00 His nature is that to be free to grant freedom 33:04 but there's conflict 33:05 and here's the interesting thing, 33:07 we can talk about Satan and some people say, 33:08 well, where's Satan, I've never seen Satan 33:09 or you know, demons, angels, never seen any of that. 33:13 But let me say this, 33:14 I don't know if you guys can relate, 33:15 but I have a suspicion that not only the three of you 33:17 around this table can relate, 33:18 but all the cameramen in this room 33:20 and everybody outside of this room, 33:22 to the conflict that I feel in my own self 33:26 to do right, to do wrong, to do this, to do that, 33:29 to go this way to go that way, the selfish thing, 33:32 the just thing or the self-ish thing. 33:35 And they are sitting on your... 33:37 You know, that's proverbial, isn't it? 33:38 The little demon and the little angel. 33:39 That's proverbial but isn't that emblematic 33:41 of something that we all know intuitively 33:43 that there is a moral struggle in our souls 33:48 to make the choice or the choice. 33:52 Can I just comment further on that, David, that, 33:55 increasingly there are people in educated Western culture 33:59 who find the existence of Satan and demons 34:05 completely ridiculous, they just write it off. 34:09 Are you kidding me? Really? 34:11 We're going back thousands of years now. 34:12 But here's the thing. 34:14 I don't know if you've looked at it 34:15 from this standpoint, 34:16 we all know that evil is moral. 34:23 It's immoral but it's, 34:25 it has a moral quality to it 34:26 and therefore we know that it is personal, 34:31 that has its origin in persons. 34:34 Take the devil, take demons out of the picture, 34:37 and evil as it occurs as we witness it, 34:40 it arises out of a free moral agent, 34:44 making bad decisions to rape, to pillage, to murder, 34:47 to control, to do whatever. 34:49 In other words, it's not a tree sitting 34:50 in the middle of the field. 34:51 It's not abstract, it's personal. 34:54 So the way I've thought about it in the past, 34:57 is that the most logical thing in the world 35:01 would be that if evil exists 35:03 and we all believe that it does, 35:05 the most logical thing in the world is to believe 35:08 that it's traceable to personal... 35:12 To an agent. 35:13 To a personal agent. 35:14 I get that. 35:16 It's not like the law of gravity. 35:20 It's not physics. 35:21 Evil is the personal exercise 35:26 of wills to do perverted, 35:29 bad, ugly, horrible things. 35:32 So when people ask me, 35:33 "Do you actually believe that the devil exists?" 35:36 I say, "Look at the world around you. 35:38 The only way to make sense 35:41 out of superhuman evil 35:44 that is just beyond anything 35:46 that we can calculate in this world 35:48 is to think that there must be 35:50 some super human evil personal agent 35:54 ultimately behind it. 35:57 I love that, Ty, with your permission, 35:58 I'm just gonna simplify it, 35:59 not only for the viewer's sake but for my own sake. 36:01 Let me see if I can do this. Okay. 36:03 You're saying that when we used... 36:04 It needs to be simplified, by the way, 36:05 'cause it's only the second time 36:07 I've ever said it. 36:08 Okay. 36:10 So you're saying that 36:11 when we see evil acts done on earth... 36:12 Yeah. 36:14 On the news, in your local neighborhood, 36:15 somebody was shot, somebody was whatever, 36:16 we trace that not to a tree, not to Iraq, not to a car... 36:20 Not to an inanimate wall. 36:21 Not to a glass of water, we trace it to a person, 36:24 an agent who has misused or perverted his or her friend. 36:26 That's right. 36:28 And you're saying, well, hey, if that's the case here 36:29 in what we see... 36:31 Then why wouldn't it also be the case 36:32 that the sum total of evil in the world 36:34 which is far beyond our comprehension 36:37 would also be traceable to an agent? 36:38 That's what I'm saying. I love that. 36:40 Yeah. 36:41 I see that, and then now let's further corroborate that. 36:44 Not only is that what our experience is telling us, 36:48 Scripture says, "Oh, and by the way, evil, 36:51 evil is traceable to an angelic rebellion 36:54 against the government of God." 36:55 Yes. 36:56 "Until the day that iniquity was found in you." 36:58 Right, right. 36:59 So this is going back to we asked the question 37:01 a few conversations ago, 37:02 how do we know that the Bible is God's Word, 37:04 that the Bible is inspired? 37:05 And we said, "Well, there's this internal 37:07 and this external thing. 37:09 There's this external reality, 37:11 but then this is internal corroboration. 37:12 That's for me, this is an example of that. 37:14 Yeah. 37:15 That is, that's a very good description of the world 37:17 I see around me, 37:18 then I go to the text 37:20 and I'm not asked to believe that yin and yang, 37:22 you know, evil can be good and good can be evil, 37:24 and they exist in a dualistic counterbalance 37:26 and I can't accept that, 37:28 I can't accept when a little girl is kidnapped 37:30 from her parent's home and was taken and abused, 37:32 and raped and killed, 37:34 and dumped somewhere in a river. 37:35 That's wrong. 37:37 That in no sense is good. 37:38 It's in no sense good in it and no sense is necessary. 37:41 And don't tell me that I couldn't understand 37:43 goodness and kindness and magnanimity 37:45 and grace and without that, some people say, 37:47 "Oh, no, you'd never know what good was 37:49 if there hadn't been evil." 37:50 Oh, no, or contraire. 37:52 I don't need that to see. 37:54 So I hate that, that's an enemy to me, that's, 37:57 and it's an enemy to God. 37:59 Yes. 38:00 God hates that. 38:03 He hates that abuse. 38:04 He hates that perversion, He hates iniquity. 38:07 He hates the perversion of the gift 38:09 that He has entrusted to us. 38:10 And there's a lot of intellectual, 38:13 rational, resolve, and satisfaction 38:17 in knowing that ultimately, 38:19 the universe in the world is governed by a God 38:22 who Himself stands against all evil 38:27 that is going on in this world. 38:30 He's not complacent. No, no. 38:32 He's not indifferent. 38:33 Some people get uncomfortable with a God 38:35 who's upset, who's angry. 38:38 You wouldn't want it any other way. 38:40 Who would want it any other way? 38:41 Well, how could you handle the God 38:43 who couldn't get angry? 38:44 Yeah, you don't want an indifferent God. 38:45 I don't even want a friend who can't get angry 38:47 at the stuff going on in this world. 38:49 Well Job got angry and God said that's my man. 38:52 Now Job got angry at God and God said, 38:54 "Hey, I'm not worried about him getting Angry me." 38:55 The anger was correct 38:57 but it was the direction that's wrong. 38:58 Yes. 38:59 And when Job got angry, God said that's my man. 39:01 He's angry at the same things I'm angry at. 39:03 Your friends, Job, 39:05 those three guys totally misrepresented me. 39:06 They think this is okay. It's not okay. 39:08 I'm glad you're angry. Pray for them. 39:09 Yeah, if you were able, as someone I know, 39:13 to witness the horrific things going on in this world, 39:17 and for it not to upset you, 39:20 I would think you need professional help. 39:22 Somehow you're not firing on all cylinders 39:26 to witness evil and not be angry about it. 39:30 How could we conceive of a God who is good, 39:33 who can look down upon our world 39:36 and not be in a holy sense, 39:38 in a righteous sense just livid 39:41 about the kinds of dastardly deeds 39:43 that we're doing against one another. 39:44 The thing that makes us human is the fact 39:46 that we are repulsed from these things, we do react. 39:48 We're not in the animal kingdom where things are just accepted 39:51 because, I mean we assume or we have in psychoanalyze 39:55 a lion or a tiger, whatever, 39:56 but we and by observation of nature, 39:58 we assume, hey, that's the way it is. 40:01 But the thing that makes us human 40:02 is the fact that we react 40:04 to these things and we get angry. 40:05 I know we've got to take a break here. 40:07 Ty asked the question, how could we not respond? 40:10 How could we not be happy with a God like that? 40:12 And the answer is 40:14 this whole other view that we talked about. 40:15 Yeah. 40:16 If you think that God is, if that is His will 40:19 and that's His will and that's His will. 40:22 It's a non mean of the sensibilities 40:25 of the image of God in us, the love of God in us 40:27 and it's not just done in that way, 40:29 it's done in a number of different ways. 40:30 Maybe in our next section we can touch on that. 40:32 Yeah, we have to take a break 40:33 but these are serious things 40:36 and we just need to understand it 40:38 the best we can as we continue the conversation. 40:40 Amen. 40:48 Truth is not merely a list of theological facts, 40:51 but rather the revelation 40:52 of God's beautiful love in Jesus Christ. 40:55 Truth Link is a series of Bible study guides 40:58 that magnify God's love 40:59 as the center of every Bible doctrine. 41:02 To receive your free copy of lesson 1, 41:04 call 877-585-1111 41:09 or write to Light Bearers, 41:10 37457, Jasper Lowell Road, 41:13 Jasper, Oregon 97438. 41:16 Once again, 41:18 to receive your free copy of Truth Link lesson 1, 41:21 call 877-585-1111 41:24 or write to Light Bearers, 41:26 37457, Jasper Lowell Road, 41:29 Jasper, Oregon 97438. 41:32 Simply ask for Truth Link, lesson 1. 41:47 So I think we need to get practical you guys, 41:50 we are dealing with this subject 41:52 on a philosophical level. 41:55 We're talking about the complexity 41:57 of the intersection between God's sovereignty 42:01 and His power and His will, 42:04 intersecting with the fact that we're free 42:06 and we have free wills, 42:08 and there's Satan and he intersects 42:11 and we explained all of that, 42:12 but I think there's a very practical question 42:16 that we need to address. 42:17 Okay, so, we're free 42:20 and God isn't micromanaging the world, 42:22 He's not in a kind of control freak mode 42:27 where He's determining everything that happens. 42:30 So what? 42:31 So where do we go from there? 42:33 I have a friend, a couple, a husband and wife, 42:36 for example, just to drive this in a very practical direction. 42:41 He's preparing for local meetings 42:44 that are gonna take place where people are invited 42:46 to come and hear the gospel preach. 42:48 He pulls his car over, 42:51 he grabs the sign that he's gonna nail 42:53 into the power pole there, the wooden pole. 42:57 He opens his truck door. 43:00 He steps out, shuts the door, 43:03 and boom, he's killed on impact. 43:04 The car that is coming by 43:06 doesn't see him getting out of his vehicle 43:09 and kills him on impact. 43:10 He leaves a wife and children behind. 43:13 Wow. 43:14 Okay, now she's faced 43:16 with having to sort through 43:20 not just a philosophical subject, 43:24 she's left to sort through the visceral pain of that loss 43:30 but then you can take it to another level. 43:33 You've got people doing horrible things 43:35 in the world all the time. 43:39 All you have to do is look at the evening news, 43:42 and it's almost more than you can bear. 43:45 So God's not in control in a micromanaging sense. 43:50 What then? 43:52 Do we just give up and say, 43:54 you know, things are gonna happen, 43:56 or did Scripture give us guidance 43:59 as to how God would have us relate 44:03 to the evil that's in our lives. 44:05 Yeah, I think going back to the text we looked at 44:08 earlier in Genesis Chapter 2 before there was evil, 44:11 before there was sin, 44:13 before there was suffering, pain, cancer, what have you, 44:16 how God brought Adam and Eve in to decision making processes 44:21 on earth in the garden. 44:23 He says, "Hey, what would you name these animals?" 44:26 So in the same way 44:28 that they had a contribution to make 44:32 before sin and pain came into existence, 44:35 that it would make sense now that you're asking now what? 44:38 Okay, we know that God isn't like this 44:40 yet this craziness happens. 44:42 What do we do now? 44:44 Well, it seems to me like 44:45 the answer would be the same 44:47 as it was prior to sin and evil, 44:49 just like human beings 44:51 were expected to contribute to take, 44:53 maybe what do you think of this term, 44:55 to take ownership. 44:56 Yeah. 44:57 Take ownership of the stuff that happens on this planet. 45:02 After sin, now we're in this crazy world, 45:05 we know God is a God of love. 45:07 We know what His character is like, 45:08 what do we do now? 45:10 Well, God would be inviting us just like He did in Genesis. 45:15 To get involved. 45:16 To get involved, to take ownership, 45:18 to contribute to join Him 45:21 in merging our heart with His heart. 45:23 And, at least to me, 45:24 that's at least the beginning of what I'm looking. 45:26 I have scripture for that. 45:28 Isaiah Chapter 1, 45:30 you have all these horrible things 45:31 that are being delineated, 45:33 terrible things that are taking place, 45:34 oppression and injustice of every kind and then, 45:39 rather than God just kind of breaking in and saying, 45:42 you know, here comes God 45:44 with His all mighty power to the rescue, 45:46 I'll sort this out. 45:47 This is interesting. 45:49 God turns the tables and He says 45:52 to those perpetrating the evil, He says to human beings, 45:54 He says to His own people, 45:56 wash yourselves and make yourselves clean 46:00 in verse 16. 46:01 Put away evil from your doings, do you get that? 46:05 Totally. 46:06 Put away evil from your doings, 46:09 He says, from before my eyes. 46:13 God's depicting Himself as beholding the evil 46:16 and He's saying, you stop doing it. 46:18 I saw a caption one time in a magazine 46:21 that was depicting a conversation 46:24 between human beings and God, 46:26 and the human beings were saying, 46:29 "God, why don't you do something?" 46:32 And the caption above was God's saying, 46:34 "That's my question precisely to you. 46:37 Why don't you do something?" 46:39 And that's what's happening here. 46:41 God is saying, you stop and watch this. 46:43 He goes on and He says, learn to do good, 46:47 cease to do evil, seek justice. 46:50 These are all imperatives. 46:51 These are all God's saying, seek justice David. 46:55 He says, rebuke the oppressor, Jeffrey. 46:58 You witness oppression. 46:59 You rebuke the oppressor, tell the oppressor, 47:03 don't do that to other human beings. 47:06 Plead for the widow, James. 47:08 God is saying to James, get involved with the widow. 47:11 Please... Take the literature. 47:12 Yeah, come now, 47:14 let us reason together, says the Lord. 47:15 Though your sins are like scarlet, 47:17 they shall be as white as snow, 47:19 though they are red like crimson, 47:20 they shall be as wool 47:26 if you are willing and obedient. 47:29 This is a powerful passage. 47:30 It is. 47:31 It's not just this one though, 47:33 there's tons of passages like this 47:35 that basically suggest that we are free moral agents 47:39 that have the choice that God is sovereign, 47:41 God has given us a choice that we are to make 47:44 and that choice has impact on other human beings. 47:47 Yeah. 47:48 Not that we have the power to cleanse ourselves, 47:49 not that we have the power 47:51 to do these things in and of ourselves 47:52 but we have the power to choose. 47:54 Yeah, yeah. 47:55 It shows what we see as a metanarrative in Scripture 47:59 as an overarching theme in Scripture 48:01 and that is that God takes human beings seriously. 48:06 He says, hey, like the caption you saw 48:09 on the magazine, well, what are you doing? 48:10 Yeah. Yeah, I like that. 48:12 Too often we want God to come in 48:13 and do for us what He would say, 48:18 "Hey, well you can handle that situation." 48:19 Now there are things that we can't do. 48:21 Right. 48:22 But then, I think God has put the church, 48:23 I just tweeted this the other day. 48:25 The church is one of God's gifts 48:26 to the world. 48:28 The church is a body of people, it should be a body of people, 48:31 a body of believers that are bringing about 48:34 the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. 48:38 It should be in terms of teaching to read 48:40 and undoing injustice 48:41 and undoing oppression and rescuing from, 48:44 in a variety of social venues, 48:46 familial venues, addiction venues, 48:48 well, all of that, 48:49 the church is supposed to be doing good, 48:51 extending the kingdom of God and bringing truth 48:55 about the character of God to earth. 48:58 If we sit around twiddling our thumbs, 48:59 sitting on our, you know, 49:01 hands as it were on padded pews... 49:03 And saying God is sovereign 49:05 God is in control of all these things. 49:06 Doesn't really matter, everything's gonna be okay, 49:08 recognize the purpose, so, you know, we just kind of. 49:11 That view breeds inactivity. 49:13 I think so. 49:14 It breeds listlessness, apathy, indifference, 49:17 and yet in Scripture you read that. 49:19 It's funny because the text I read in Isaiah 1 49:21 resonates very similarly 49:24 to what is in Isaiah Chapter 6. 49:27 I love this, Isaiah chapter 6, excuse me, Micah 6:6, 49:31 "With what shall I come before the Lord, 49:33 and bow myself before the High God? 49:35 Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, 49:36 with calves a year old? 49:38 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, 49:40 ten thousand rivers of oil? 49:41 Shall I give the firstborn for my transgression, 49:43 the fruit of body for the sin of my soul?" 49:45 Now I want to make a modern application here. 49:47 Should I just become super religious? 49:50 Right? In other words, this is a... 49:52 Should I just do really religious things, 49:53 things that are in house 49:55 that are understood by religious peoples 49:56 in a religious context is that what God's asks us. 49:58 Shut myself away and pray, and read, and meditate. 50:00 Exactly, see after hyper religiosity, 50:02 well, he is but not misunderstood. 50:04 He says, okay, here it is, verse 8, 50:06 "He has shown you a man what is good: 50:09 what does the Lord require of you?" 50:11 And he gives three things, to do justly, to love mercy, 50:14 and to walk humbly with your God. 50:17 That's what God is after. 50:19 We're asking the question, 50:20 if God is in control, are we free? 50:21 One of the ways that God is exerting His will 50:24 and extending His kingdom on earth 50:26 is not through the mysterious interposition 50:30 of His hand into human events. 50:33 It's through the church. 50:34 It's through the tithes 50:35 and the people, it's through us. 50:37 Yeah, through human being. 50:39 He does the other, but it's not in the sense that. 50:42 Go ahead. You keep going. 50:43 What is not in the sense that 50:44 we have been trying to explain 50:47 is over the top micromanagement, 50:49 and I like this because that verse 8 50:51 begins with his showing the old man what is good. 50:54 It is the goodness of God 50:55 that motivates and leads us to walk humbly 50:58 and to show mercy and to love justice. 51:01 It's the goodness of God that motivates us. 51:03 And if we see God 51:04 as a micromanaging control God deity. 51:06 Freak. 51:08 Okay, I don't want to use that word, 51:09 but if we see Him that way, 51:10 it's not gonna lead us to do anything 51:12 'cause there's no reason for us to do anything, 51:13 but if we see God as a God of love 51:15 who honors free will and free choice, 51:16 a God who has macro-management but not micromanagement. 51:19 A God who's listening and looking at us 51:21 and what did you say? 51:22 What was the phrase you used earlier, 51:23 when He looks at human beings? 51:25 Takes us seriously? 51:26 He takes us seriously. 51:27 You have part to play, 51:29 you have something that I need your contribution. 51:30 Then there's a completely different picture here. 51:32 The thing that came to my mind is 51:33 John the Baptist was one of those people. 51:34 John the Baptist was one of those people 51:36 that was one of God's hands, mouths, feet on earth. 51:40 He was making a difference. 51:41 He's out, he's preaching, he's announcing, you know, 51:43 may every valley be made, you know, 51:45 fill the valleys and bring the mountains down. 51:47 Jesus is coming and check this out. 51:49 Jesus is speaking about this experience 51:51 and it says when all the tax collectors, 51:53 I'm in Luke 7:29, 51:56 "When all the people heard him" 51:57 John the Baptist, or excuse me, 51:59 "Jesus, even the tax collectors justified God 52:01 having been baptized with the baptism of John." 52:03 So he's talking about John. Now watch this. 52:05 Luke says, "But the Pharisees and lawyers 52:07 rejected the will of God for themselves 52:10 not having been baptized by John." 52:14 They rejected the will of God. 52:15 That's exactly right. So God has a will. 52:17 His will is for people to be baptized. 52:19 God enlist John to help Him carry out His will. 52:22 So here's God's will here's John's will, 52:25 coalescing with God's will 52:26 and yet even the force of John's oration, 52:29 the power of his ministry, 52:30 the strength of his consistent witness 52:32 coupled with God's will on earth, 52:35 and some people said, no thanks. 52:37 You know what? 52:38 This is interesting, too, 52:40 because in 1 Thessalonians Chapter 2, 52:41 Paul is writing to the believers there. 52:45 He just established a church there 52:46 and he left them and this is what he says. 52:47 He says, but we've rather than having been taken away from you 52:50 for a short time, 52:52 in presence, not in heart endeavored more eagerly 52:54 to see your face with great desire. 52:56 Therefore, we wanted to come to you 52:57 even I Paul time and again, 53:01 but Satan hindered us. 53:02 We wanted to come. 53:04 But Satan hindered us and you know 53:05 how Satan hindered them? 53:06 You know the reason why Paul had to leave 53:08 and the reason why he couldn't go back? 53:09 It's 'cause of the Jews. 53:10 The Jews stirred up the people in Thessalonica 53:14 after Paul was preaching there and it was, 53:15 there was such a raucous that they, 53:17 they had to get Paul out, and he couldn't go back. 53:19 But he's saying Satan hindered him. 53:21 So we have this choice that individuals are making 53:24 and when they make that choice, they're making that choice 53:26 to side with the ruler of this world. 53:28 They're making that choice that is stopping God's purposes 53:32 and God's desire to reach them 53:34 and share with them the gospel 53:35 and they're making decisions that is are in opposition. 53:38 That's very Isaiah 1, isn't it? 53:39 Here's all this negative that's happening. 53:41 Here's all this evil and God says, 53:43 okay, there's really two great principles 53:45 here at work, 53:46 and we're either aligning ourselves 53:48 with this principle, 53:49 and if we are then we're furthering the kingdom of God 53:51 and His work on earth 53:52 or we're aligning ourselves with this principle, 53:54 in which case we are aligning ourselves 53:56 where Satan hindered us. 53:57 And Paul is an example of that 53:59 because he's persecuted the church of God at one point, 54:02 and he turns around and he is preaching the gospel. 54:04 His will was changed. Yes. 54:06 His will was changed by the goodness of God. 54:09 And when he describes his will being changed, listen to this. 54:11 I'm in Acts Chapter 26. 54:13 This is Jesus speaking to Saul saying, 54:15 "Hey, this is what your life is going to be going forward. 54:18 I will deliver you from the Jewish people 54:19 as well as from the Gentiles 54:21 to whom I now send you for this purpose, 54:22 to open their eyes and order to turn them 54:24 from darkness to light 54:26 and from the power of Satan to God 54:27 that they may receive forgiveness of sins 54:29 and an inheritance among those 54:31 that are sanctified by faith in me." 54:32 I got a plan for your life, Paul. 54:34 I got a plan for your life, Saul. 54:36 And the plan is to turn for you to turn people 54:39 not just for you to be turned. 54:41 But for you to turn people from darkness to light 54:43 from the power of Satan to God, go. 54:44 I just really wanted to read this powerful passage. 54:47 I don't think we appreciate in general 54:50 how strongly God feels about what we're saying 54:53 in regard to our involvement. 54:55 You mentioned, I love what you said, 54:57 "Should I just seek hyper religiosity," right? 55:00 There's this passage in Amos Chapter 5, 55:03 where God says, 55:05 God uses language that is just shocking. 55:08 He says, He's speaking to the church, 55:10 He's speaking to believers 55:12 that are aware of the condition of their, 55:13 he says, "I hate, I despise your feast days." 55:17 Wow. 55:19 "I do not savor your sacred assemblies, 55:22 your church services 55:24 and even though you offer me burnt offerings 55:26 in your green offerings, 55:28 I will not accept them, 55:30 nor will I regard your peace offerings. 55:32 Take away from me, the noise of your songs, 55:37 for I will not hear the melody from your string instruments." 55:40 And then verse 24 is the point. 55:42 "But let justice run down like water..." 55:46 Come on now. 55:47 Start preaching. 55:49 "And righteousness like a mighty streams." 55:52 That's what He is after. 55:53 He is saying, look, stop your prayers. 55:56 Close your Bible. Put the tambourines down. 55:57 Yeah, stop the song, stop the prayer, 55:59 stop the plastic Christianity. 56:02 Pick up the shovels. 56:03 Go do something in this world, 56:05 alleviate the pain and the suffering. 56:06 Get your hands dirty. 56:08 And that's in essence 56:09 how you would worship Me and serve Me. 56:11 I have to say this, when the chips are down, 56:14 when the whole thing's done when Jesus returns, 56:16 He says, He uses this parable, 56:18 "Then the king will say to those on his right hand, 56:20 'Come you blessed of My father, 56:21 inherit the kingdom prepared for you 56:22 from the foundation of the world, 56:24 for I was hungry..." 56:25 That's it, yeah. 56:27 And he didn't pray for me. 56:28 I was hungry, you gave me... 56:29 Now that doesn't mean they didn't pray. 56:31 But after they prayed, they gave food. 56:33 "And I was thirsty and you gave me drink. 56:35 I was a stranger and you took me in. 56:36 I was naked and you clothed me. 56:38 I was sick and you visited me. 56:39 I was in prison and you came to me." 56:41 Clearly God here 56:43 is taking the decisions of people seriously. 56:46 Yeah. 56:48 Let me close this out with this one thought. 56:49 Do I have enough time? 56:51 Go for it, if you hurry. 56:52 This is a tweet and it's powerful. 56:53 "This universe was created by a God of love 56:55 to operate in ways of love. 56:58 So no lie can last forever 57:00 and all injustice will cease to exist." 57:03 Oh, I love that. 57:04 Who is that? Did you write that? 57:06 No, that's Vince, that's a friend of ours. 57:08 Oh, yeah. Vince. 57:10 And that, that, oh, 57:11 and that is a great place to land 57:13 because we're basically summarizing 57:14 and answer the question 57:16 if God is in control, are we really free? 57:18 The fact is that God exercises control 57:23 to the degree that our intersecting free will 57:28 with His is made valid. 57:32 Seriously, He takes into account what we do. 57:36 And collectively, 57:37 we bring evil to an end in harmony, 57:42 working in concert with God 57:45 rather than it cross purposes with them. 57:47 Amen. Amen. |
Revised 2019-10-24