In this conversation,
00:00:21.45\00:00:22.78
we're gonna tackle a
pretty complex question
00:00:22.82\00:00:25.62
and its related to
our previous conversation
00:00:25.65\00:00:28.42
where we came from
00:00:28.46\00:00:30.03
was with the
question if God is love,
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why is there so much
suffering in the world,
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and there's gonna
be some overlap here
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but this is a necessary subject.
00:00:36.67\00:00:39.30
The question now is,
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if God is in
control, are we really free?
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And this is the
question we have to ask
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because there is in
the world of philosophy,
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in naturalism or materialism,
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there's a
materialistic determinism
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that says that
every single thing
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that happens
couldn't happen otherwise,
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then it did happen
because of the big bang.
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Everything traces
back to that one event
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that created the causal
chain that produced all outcomes
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and that's materialistic
or atheistic determinism,
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but there is also
atheistic determinism.
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There's the view that
the sovereignty of God
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dictates every single
event that ever occurs
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so that omnipotence is
viewed as omni control.
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In other words, if
God is all powerful,
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therefore nothing ever occurs
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that God Himself
did not choreographed,
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determine or make happen.
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He's like the
cosmic micro manager.
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Yeah.
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A big control freak in the sky.
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And some people may
or have referred to that
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as the blueprint.
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Augustinian blueprint.
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Yeah, it's like
the blueprint worldview
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where there's a
blueprint for every single thing
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that's been
predetermined and planned out.
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So how do we
approach this subject?
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Well, first of all, do
you resonate with it at all?
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Do you resonate with a worldview
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or a theological
orientation that says
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God is in control of
everything that happens?
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Well, one of the things I
think it's important for us
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to say from the onset is this,
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because so many
people have used this
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in a positive way to, you know,
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excuse me for using this phrase,
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but to find a
purpose driven life
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or a purpose in
life, and therefore
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when they've dealt
with bad situations,
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they've tried to say,
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well, no, God is behind this
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and therefore there
must be some purpose in this.
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It's a way of coping.
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It's a way of coping
and it's a religious idea,
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a religious way of coping.
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And what I try to say
right from the onset is this,
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because I had this
experience when I was in Africa,
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I was counseling this young lady
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and she was suicidal.
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She was suicidal
having migraine headaches
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and when she...
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when we got into
this counseling session,
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she told me her
life story or experience.
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When she was a young lady,
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she had been
sexually abused by her uncle
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and the issue
was in her life was
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that she had never
talked to anyone about this
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and so when we were
counseling, this was.
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So I said, you know,
have you talked to pastor now?
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Have you talked to pastor now?
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I said, well,
have you prayed about,
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have you talked to God?
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Why would I
talk to Him about it?
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He's the one
that made it happen.
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She said it like that?
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She said it like that
and it was and by the way,
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I had to say to her,
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I know that's
what you just heard
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in that last sermon
that we listened to.
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That's what I had to say to her.
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But I said, "I would
like to share with you."
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A sermon that you had preached?
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No. Okay.
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It was preached at the place
where I was preaching also.
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And I said, but I
would like to share with you
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a different option
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and basically, the
option I shared with her
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without going into
detail was Romans 8:28,
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"All things work
together for good
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to them that love
God and are called
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according to His purpose."
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Not all things that
happen are God's will.
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There's a lot of evil
that happens on this world,
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but God can overrule the evil
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that is taking
place on planet earth
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and He can bring good out of it.
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And I said that's one step away
from what you're talking about.
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And as I explained this to her,
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tears begin
developing in her eyes.
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She was sobbing, and
I just want to tell you,
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it's just a
powerful, powerful experience.
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That girl completely,
was completely transformed
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by the gospel, by the good news.
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It's liberating.
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Ended up going to
college, we sent her a Bible,
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she ended up just falling
in love with Jesus Christ
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and her life just went
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in a completely
different direction.
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What you say, you
say it's liberating.
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But I've had
conversations with people
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who the moment you say
that no, God is not in control
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of every single
thing that happens,
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it's not liberating
for them, it's threatening.
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And they feel like
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well, then there's
no reason for my pain?
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There's no...
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What's behind this?
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How come, I was
quite satisfied believing
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that God had some plan
or purpose or blueprint
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or something He was up to,
00:05:02.60\00:05:05.60
in making this happen to me
00:05:05.63\00:05:07.44
and now you're
telling me that...
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There's no such thing, yeah.
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That God isn't in
control of everything?
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Do we need to just
say in a blanket manner,
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God is not in control
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or is that overshooting
the mark in another direction?
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It's overshooting
mark in other direction.
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Does God control
anything that happens?
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He overrules everything.
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I believe, He
overrules everything.
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So in a sense, we
all are understanding
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and recognizing that
God is alive and well
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and He is in
control of planet earth
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but in another sense,
we're recognizing the opposite,
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and that is
that there are things
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happening on planet earth
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that are
distinctly unrelated to God
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and not part of God's will.
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I think that there
is a real trickiness
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even in the way that
we've ordered the question
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and this is, this
has come up several times
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in the way that we've
ordered other questions
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and that's what I
like about these questions
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'cause they're thorny,
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they're thorny,
they're difficult,
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even the questions
themselves are problematic.
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So with this as a case in point,
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if God is in control,
then are we really free?
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Well, there is a sense
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in which you could
describe God's being in control
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that I would totally
disagree with biblically,
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and then there's a sense
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in which you could
describe God's being in control
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with which I
would totally agree.
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So maybe we
should sort of define
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our terms there a
little bit, in what sense
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is God in control?
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Like, for example,
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if I decide to
pick this up right now,
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and then I
decide to set it down.
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Okay, that was an
action that just took place.
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It took place in time,
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it took place in
space, it has in some,
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you know, miniscule way
altered the person that I am.
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In other words,
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that is
something that happens now.
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It's a part of
human history. Okay.
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Okay, did God, was
God in control of that?
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Is that something God did
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or is that
something that David did?
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'Cause I'm operating
under the decided impression
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that that was a
choice that I made.
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When we were
just here in the back
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to try to decide what,
you know, shirts we wear
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because if we all wear dark,
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or we all wear
light or whatever,
00:07:01.88\00:07:03.22
and I put on
this beautiful shirt,
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you notice how beautiful it is.
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I'm under the impression
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that this was a
choice that I made.
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Yeah, but the
deterministic world view...
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That was your choice, wasn't it?
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Yeah, the
deterministic world view says
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that you're
under the illusion...
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Exactly. That you
made a free choice.
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The fact is, I'm
not saying the fact is,
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I'm saying that in the
deterministic worldview,
00:07:23.24\00:07:26.57
they would say, the fact is
00:07:26.61\00:07:29.48
that your apparent choice
was just that, it was apparent.
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You didn't make the
choice because God is sovereign,
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God is in control,
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God is omnipotent
00:07:40.12\00:07:41.46
and that equates to
00:07:41.49\00:07:43.12
God has predetermined
every single micro detail
00:07:43.16\00:07:48.93
that ever occurs.
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It's all
choreographed ahead of time
00:07:50.33\00:07:52.30
and you didn't really
make that decision at all.
00:07:52.33\00:07:55.74
So what would you...
00:07:55.77\00:07:57.77
Is there anything to
John 3:16 on this question,
00:07:57.81\00:08:01.81
for whosoever believes in Him,
00:08:01.84\00:08:05.88
that sounds to me
to contradict this,
00:08:05.91\00:08:08.65
the notion that, that everything
00:08:08.68\00:08:11.12
is controlled
by God and that we,
00:08:11.15\00:08:12.82
that we're under
the delusion, right?
00:08:12.85\00:08:15.92
Yeah.
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God so loved the
world that He gave,
00:08:17.33\00:08:18.83
and whosoever believes in Him
00:08:18.86\00:08:21.36
should not perish but
have everlasting life.
00:08:21.40\00:08:23.13
So, it, to me,
that sounds a lot like
00:08:23.16\00:08:26.50
what you were just saying,
00:08:26.53\00:08:27.90
you have the
real, very real capacity
00:08:27.94\00:08:31.07
to make an
exercise of your will,
00:08:31.11\00:08:33.91
to make a decision.
00:08:33.94\00:08:35.64
That's not
pre-manipulated by God.
00:08:35.68\00:08:37.71
I agree. I agree with that.
00:08:37.75\00:08:39.55
I'm just gonna say that for
me, John 3:16, a great text,
00:08:39.58\00:08:42.92
needs to be brought
to the table literally,
00:08:42.95\00:08:45.55
but I feel like
it's down the pike.
00:08:45.59\00:08:47.46
I feel like it's like
three turns down the road.
00:08:47.49\00:08:50.43
I want to ask
you the question, Ty,
00:08:50.46\00:08:51.93
I want to put you
right on the spot here
00:08:51.96\00:08:53.29
'cause you know more about
this than I do just straight up.
00:08:53.33\00:08:56.16
Is the way that you articulated
00:08:56.20\00:08:59.23
the theistic
determinism or that last time
00:08:59.27\00:09:01.70
that you just were
speaking about determinism,
00:09:01.74\00:09:03.37
were you
speaking primarily about
00:09:03.41\00:09:04.74
like materialistic determinism
or theistic determinism
00:09:04.77\00:09:07.54
with every event
being choreographed?
00:09:07.58\00:09:09.71
You were saying theistic.
00:09:09.74\00:09:11.08
I was referring to theistic.
00:09:11.11\00:09:13.52
Okay. So here's
my question. Yeah.
00:09:13.55\00:09:14.92
Do you feel like that's
a fair? Is that accurate?
00:09:14.95\00:09:17.29
Is that an accurate
way of characterizing?
00:09:17.32\00:09:20.96
I don't want to say
caricaturing, the way
00:09:20.99\00:09:23.63
that a determinist
would, in other words,
00:09:23.66\00:09:26.33
like accounts more
self, is that fair?
00:09:26.36\00:09:28.06
I think it's
bigger than that for them.
00:09:28.10\00:09:29.43
I think it's more
scientific. I think.
00:09:29.46\00:09:31.50
That's all the
question I'm asking.
00:09:31.53\00:09:32.87
Yeah.
00:09:32.90\00:09:34.24
Well, the way I understand it
00:09:34.27\00:09:35.60
just for some philosophical
and historical background.
00:09:35.64\00:09:39.64
First of all, the
idea of determinism
00:09:39.67\00:09:41.91
is not a Christian
idea in its origins
00:09:41.94\00:09:47.15
and it's not a biblical idea.
00:09:47.18\00:09:49.12
This hails back
to Greek philosophy
00:09:49.15\00:09:53.19
and you have a
succession of ideas
00:09:53.22\00:09:56.19
that were passed down
00:09:56.22\00:09:57.56
and the basic
lineage of the idea
00:09:57.59\00:10:00.13
is you begin with Plato,
00:10:00.16\00:10:02.33
and Plato conceives
of God as absolute Being.
00:10:02.36\00:10:07.20
And by that he means that
God is really all there is.
00:10:07.24\00:10:10.91
There is no such thing
as a autonomous creature
00:10:10.94\00:10:15.44
or being that
exists adjacent to God
00:10:15.48\00:10:18.25
as a free will being.
00:10:18.28\00:10:19.81
Anybody that looks like
00:10:19.85\00:10:21.32
they're existing adjacent to God
00:10:21.35\00:10:24.05
is an extension of God
00:10:24.09\00:10:27.72
projecting out into the world,
00:10:27.76\00:10:32.29
what He's conceived in Himself.
00:10:32.33\00:10:34.46
So for example,
in Greek philosophy,
00:10:34.50\00:10:37.07
if the Greeks would win a war,
00:10:37.10\00:10:39.27
they would attribute it
to the will of the gods.
00:10:39.30\00:10:41.34
If they lost a war,
00:10:41.37\00:10:42.70
they would attribute it
to the will of the gods.
00:10:42.74\00:10:44.67
And the secret,
00:10:44.71\00:10:46.34
the psychological
background of this is
00:10:46.37\00:10:48.44
it advocates the
individual of responsibility.
00:10:48.48\00:10:50.58
Right.
00:10:50.61\00:10:51.95
If a man is married to a woman,
00:10:51.98\00:10:54.28
it's destiny that he be with her
00:10:54.32\00:10:56.99
until he doesn't want
to be with her anymore,
00:10:57.02\00:10:58.69
and the moment he doesn't
want to be with her anymore,
00:10:58.72\00:11:01.52
and then he enters
into a relationship
00:11:01.56\00:11:03.53
with another woman,
00:11:03.56\00:11:04.99
he attributes it
to destiny or fate.
00:11:05.03\00:11:08.60
I was supposed to be
with you, but not anymore.
00:11:08.63\00:11:12.33
Now I'm supposed to be with you.
00:11:12.37\00:11:13.70
And you see how, how
nicely that abdicates the man
00:11:13.74\00:11:16.97
of any shame or guilt.
00:11:17.01\00:11:18.34
He doesn't have to deal
with himself on the matter,
00:11:18.37\00:11:20.88
because he conceives of
himself as being acted upon
00:11:20.91\00:11:24.58
by an external force
that is bigger than himself.
00:11:24.61\00:11:27.18
Okay.
00:11:27.22\00:11:28.55
Okay, so that's the
Greek philosophical base
00:11:28.58\00:11:31.02
and then, Aristotle
who was a student of Plato
00:11:31.05\00:11:34.62
came along and said,
00:11:34.66\00:11:35.99
"Well, if that's
true, then God is conceived
00:11:36.02\00:11:37.93
as what Plato
called the unmoved mover."
00:11:37.96\00:11:40.93
God is forever Himself, unmoved,
00:11:40.96\00:11:44.33
nothing external
to God acts upon God
00:11:44.37\00:11:47.87
to produce response in God.
00:11:47.90\00:11:50.11
But while God is unmoved,
00:11:50.14\00:11:52.54
He never
experiences emotion or response.
00:11:52.57\00:11:55.64
He's constantly the mover.
00:11:55.68\00:11:57.68
So if anything happens
00:11:57.71\00:11:59.21
whether you decide
you have shredded wheat
00:11:59.25\00:12:01.62
or Cheerios for
breakfast tomorrow morning,
00:12:01.65\00:12:04.32
God predetermined
00:12:04.35\00:12:06.19
that you're going
to have shredded wheat,
00:12:06.22\00:12:07.72
that's what
you're going to have.
00:12:07.76\00:12:09.09
Yeah.
00:12:09.12\00:12:10.46
Okay, so that
comes to Aristotle,
00:12:10.49\00:12:11.83
but here's where it
gets into Christianity.
00:12:11.86\00:12:14.76
A lot of people
aren't aware of this history
00:12:14.80\00:12:17.17
but Augustine, arguably
the most influential theologian
00:12:17.20\00:12:21.60
in Christian history,
00:12:21.64\00:12:23.61
Augustine was not
raised a Christian.
00:12:23.64\00:12:26.84
He was a student
of Greek philosophy
00:12:26.88\00:12:30.41
and then converted in
adulthood to Christianity
00:12:30.45\00:12:33.58
and he brought
his Greek philosophy
00:12:33.62\00:12:36.08
into his
Christianity and he was the one,
00:12:36.12\00:12:38.89
Augustine was the one
00:12:38.92\00:12:41.22
who then wrapped
biblical Christian language
00:12:41.26\00:12:45.03
around the Greek ideas and said,
00:12:45.06\00:12:47.76
"Okay, Paul speaks
of predestination here.
00:12:47.80\00:12:50.83
That must be the same thing
00:12:50.87\00:12:53.54
that Plato and
Aristotle were talking about."
00:12:53.57\00:12:56.84
So then you have this
idea that God predetermines
00:12:56.87\00:13:00.78
from eternity past,
00:13:00.81\00:13:02.41
who's gonna be saved
and who's going to be lost.
00:13:02.44\00:13:05.31
And then,
hundreds of years later,
00:13:05.35\00:13:07.78
sorry, this is taking so long,
00:13:07.82\00:13:09.18
but there's no background,
hundreds of years later,
00:13:09.22\00:13:12.09
you have John
Calvin of Reformation fame.
00:13:12.12\00:13:17.13
And John Calvin is a student
of the writings of Augustine
00:13:17.16\00:13:22.06
and he's the one
that most fine tunes
00:13:22.10\00:13:25.73
the idea of theistic determinism
00:13:25.77\00:13:30.91
or predestination
00:13:30.94\00:13:32.87
and he goes so far,
but Augustine did this too
00:13:32.91\00:13:36.48
and this is getting to
what your real question was.
00:13:36.51\00:13:39.28
They went so far as
to not only say that,
00:13:39.31\00:13:42.55
that God predetermines
who's saved and last,
00:13:42.58\00:13:46.12
but God
predetermines everything.
00:13:46.15\00:13:48.76
If a little girl is raped,
00:13:48.79\00:13:51.03
this is a part of
God's sovereign plan.
00:13:51.06\00:13:54.06
If a car accident occurs,
00:13:54.10\00:13:56.00
if somebody is
diagnosed with a disease,
00:13:56.03\00:13:58.77
whatever happens,
it's all happening
00:13:58.80\00:14:01.34
within the parameters of
the sovereign will of God.
00:14:01.37\00:14:06.01
The moment something is allowed
00:14:06.04\00:14:08.91
to happen outside
of the will of God,
00:14:08.94\00:14:11.25
the assumption is,
well, God's not powerful then,
00:14:11.28\00:14:13.15
God's not all powerful.
00:14:13.18\00:14:14.82
So, so yes, in that view,
00:14:14.85\00:14:16.89
God controls literally
everything that happens.
00:14:16.92\00:14:22.16
There's some
kind of divine reason
00:14:22.19\00:14:24.33
behind everything,
00:14:24.36\00:14:26.03
the good, the bad,
the ugly, the otherwise,
00:14:26.06\00:14:28.10
anything that happens
and it's a very dark idea,
00:14:28.13\00:14:32.53
it's difficult to conceive
00:14:32.57\00:14:34.60
of any more dehumanizing idea
00:14:34.64\00:14:40.04
than for me to look
across the table at Jeffrey
00:14:40.08\00:14:44.25
and to conceive of Jeffrey
00:14:44.28\00:14:46.78
as basically a
non entity, a shell
00:14:46.82\00:14:50.35
of an apparent autonomous
being who makes choices,
00:14:50.39\00:14:54.72
but to in my philosophical
and theological outlook
00:14:54.76\00:14:57.73
to basically say,
00:14:57.76\00:14:59.56
no, you don't
actually exit adjacent to me,
00:14:59.59\00:15:03.43
adjacent to God, in
relation to anybody.
00:15:03.47\00:15:05.97
You're an
extension of the will of God.
00:15:06.00\00:15:07.54
You make no choices,
00:15:07.57\00:15:09.07
everything that happens to you,
00:15:09.10\00:15:10.94
everything that
ultimately happens
00:15:10.97\00:15:12.57
in your destiny
God predetermined.
00:15:12.61\00:15:14.28
And in a sense, it
sounds like an attempt
00:15:14.31\00:15:15.74
to simplify the
chaos of the world
00:15:15.78\00:15:20.05
'cause that's a simple answer.
00:15:20.08\00:15:21.72
That's a very
clear cut one liner.
00:15:21.75\00:15:24.35
Yeah.
00:15:24.39\00:15:25.72
But I think we would
all affirm at this table
00:15:25.75\00:15:29.82
that the world is complex
and it's not that simple.
00:15:29.86\00:15:32.86
It's not that cut and
dried, that there's a war,
00:15:32.89\00:15:37.60
that we're in
the midst of a war,
00:15:37.63\00:15:38.97
I think you
said something about,
00:15:39.00\00:15:40.40
we're in enemy
occupied territory,
00:15:40.44\00:15:42.77
and that it
doesn't work that way
00:15:42.80\00:15:44.14
that there are clearly
things as a real description
00:15:44.17\00:15:46.51
that take place on a daily basis
00:15:46.54\00:15:47.98
that are not part of God's.
00:15:48.01\00:15:50.35
In fact, God has to
enter and intervene.
00:15:50.38\00:15:54.05
Why would God have
to intervene in anything
00:15:54.08\00:15:56.15
if everything was an
extension of His plan?
00:15:56.18\00:15:59.29
Right.
00:15:59.32\00:16:00.66
I think we could accurately say
00:16:00.69\00:16:02.72
that God has macro control,
00:16:02.76\00:16:06.63
but not micro control.
00:16:06.66\00:16:08.96
That ultimately God's principles
00:16:09.00\00:16:11.93
will trump the
principles of evil,
00:16:11.97\00:16:13.94
that good will
ultimately overcome evil
00:16:13.97\00:16:16.64
that love trumps hate.
00:16:16.67\00:16:19.74
So God has an overall plan.
00:16:19.77\00:16:22.18
Yes.
00:16:22.21\00:16:23.55
At the end He's
finessing and navigating
00:16:23.58\00:16:27.32
through the evil
bringing good out of this bad.
00:16:27.35\00:16:30.99
Yeah, He's navigating
forward through the evil
00:16:31.02\00:16:33.86
to an ultimate end of victory.
00:16:33.89\00:16:35.82
But He's not micromanaging
every detail along the way
00:16:35.86\00:16:40.20
so that every bit
of pain and suffering
00:16:40.23\00:16:43.40
that goes on in the world
00:16:43.43\00:16:44.80
is traceable to
God predetermining
00:16:44.83\00:16:48.07
that that happened to you
right then and right there
00:16:48.10\00:16:51.11
for some, for some reason.
00:16:51.14\00:16:52.47
So, macro control,
but not micro control.
00:16:52.51\00:16:56.85
Another way of saying
that would simply be to say
00:16:56.88\00:17:00.02
the fact that God
controls some things
00:17:00.05\00:17:03.42
doesn't mean that
God controls all things.
00:17:03.45\00:17:06.99
So we're not saying that
God's not involved, right?
00:17:07.02\00:17:09.76
God is.
00:17:09.79\00:17:11.13
We're not implying
that God is not involved.
00:17:11.16\00:17:12.56
God is in all.
He's fully involved.
00:17:12.59\00:17:14.03
We're not even
saying He's not sovereign,
00:17:14.06\00:17:15.70
He's fully sovereign. Yeah.
00:17:15.73\00:17:18.00
But He's sovereign in love.
00:17:18.03\00:17:23.30
In other words,
00:17:23.34\00:17:24.67
God is all powerful,
00:17:24.71\00:17:27.41
but His all
mighty, omnipotent power
00:17:27.44\00:17:31.95
coexists with His love.
00:17:31.98\00:17:36.82
He has a particular
will and that will is,
00:17:36.85\00:17:40.49
God chooses sovereignly
for you and me to be free.
00:17:40.52\00:17:44.79
That's God's sovereign will,
00:17:44.83\00:17:46.86
and that has all the
possible upsides and downsides
00:17:46.90\00:17:51.60
that come with
that actual freedom so.
00:17:51.63\00:17:56.14
I think of a good illustration
of this in relation to us
00:17:56.17\00:17:59.84
is parents and children,
00:17:59.87\00:18:01.34
I think it's a
great illustration
00:18:01.38\00:18:02.81
because we want to
control their lives,
00:18:02.84\00:18:05.48
we want to, you know,
00:18:05.51\00:18:07.08
we want to live
in a certain place.
00:18:07.12\00:18:08.88
We want them to go
to a certain school,
00:18:08.92\00:18:10.25
we want them to...
00:18:10.29\00:18:11.62
Yeah, you are
going through that.
00:18:11.65\00:18:12.99
Grow up learning certain things
00:18:13.02\00:18:14.36
and we want them to
make certain decisions
00:18:14.39\00:18:15.72
and while we have the
power to do that, we don't,
00:18:15.76\00:18:19.19
we better not embrace it.
00:18:19.23\00:18:20.56
If we do that,
we're gonna ruin them.
00:18:20.60\00:18:22.76
We're gonna take
away their individuality
00:18:22.80\00:18:24.43
and we're gonna
make them who we are
00:18:24.47\00:18:26.33
and we're gonna
make them susceptible
00:18:26.37\00:18:28.90
to be
controlled by somebody else
00:18:28.94\00:18:30.27
once they come out
from under over roof.
00:18:30.31\00:18:31.71
Yeah, in other words,
00:18:31.74\00:18:33.07
we could control
them but we shouldn't.
00:18:33.11\00:18:34.44
No. Yeah.
00:18:34.48\00:18:35.81
Man, this is good
and after the break,
00:18:35.84\00:18:38.11
we'll just keep
unpacking this subject.
00:18:38.15\00:18:41.15
The Bible is a big book.
00:18:48.76\00:18:50.63
It's composed of
66 smaller books,
00:18:50.66\00:18:53.76
written by more than
40 different authors.
00:18:53.80\00:18:57.10
It's easy to get bogged down
00:18:57.13\00:18:58.90
in all the
genealogies, ancient history,
00:18:58.93\00:19:01.77
and intersecting characters
with unpronounceable names.
00:19:01.80\00:19:05.87
And yet the Bible is full
of rich and powerful truths
00:19:05.91\00:19:09.94
that all of us
need to understand.
00:19:09.98\00:19:13.21
When you love to have
an experienced tour guide
00:19:13.25\00:19:16.12
take you on a
step by step journey
00:19:16.15\00:19:18.22
through some of the most vital
00:19:18.25\00:19:19.89
and beautiful truths
contained in the Bible,
00:19:19.92\00:19:22.62
well now it's here.
00:19:22.66\00:19:24.69
It's called Truth Link.
00:19:24.73\00:19:26.90
Truth Link is a
groundbreaking new series
00:19:26.93\00:19:30.17
of easy to
understand Bible study guides
00:19:30.20\00:19:33.40
that thousands of people
00:19:33.44\00:19:35.07
around the world
are raving about.
00:19:35.10\00:19:37.77
Why all the excitement?
00:19:37.81\00:19:39.67
Because Truth Link
systematically unfold
00:19:39.71\00:19:43.35
27 life
transforming biblical topics,
00:19:43.38\00:19:47.58
but not as a list of
dry theological facts,
00:19:47.62\00:19:51.55
rather, Truth Link takes you
00:19:51.59\00:19:54.36
on an engaging
biblical expedition
00:19:54.39\00:19:57.33
demonstrating how
every truth of scripture
00:19:57.36\00:20:00.66
reveals some facet of
God's beautiful character.
00:20:00.70\00:20:05.40
Truth Link isn't
just information.
00:20:05.43\00:20:08.34
It's a spiritual journey
00:20:08.37\00:20:09.87
that will
radically impact your life.
00:20:09.90\00:20:12.97
We would really
love for you to have
00:20:13.01\00:20:15.24
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00:20:15.28\00:20:16.61
because we know they
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00:20:16.64\00:20:20.75
You can get them by
visiting truthlink.org
00:20:20.78\00:20:24.89
or by calling 541-988-3333.
00:20:24.92\00:20:31.39
In reflecting on
the first segment
00:20:42.84\00:20:44.67
of this conversation,
00:20:44.71\00:20:46.41
I think we were all
sort of saying in the break,
00:20:46.44\00:20:48.04
and I was thinking
that there is a sense
00:20:48.08\00:20:50.55
in which this conversation
00:20:50.58\00:20:52.01
you started by saying
you're exactly correct.
00:20:52.05\00:20:53.65
This is a complex question.
00:20:53.68\00:20:55.65
If God is in
control, how do we say it?
00:20:55.68\00:20:58.79
If God is in control...?
00:20:58.82\00:21:00.16
Yeah, if God is in
control, are we really free?
00:21:00.19\00:21:02.56
And in the course
of that first segment,
00:21:02.59\00:21:04.59
we need to let the viewers know,
00:21:04.63\00:21:06.83
those that are listening
in to this conversation,
00:21:06.86\00:21:09.40
that we recognize
that there is a complexity,
00:21:09.43\00:21:12.63
theological,
philosophical, even historical
00:21:12.67\00:21:14.84
to the things that
we're talking about.
00:21:14.87\00:21:16.24
But what we're trying to
do in an hour long program
00:21:16.27\00:21:19.51
is to set a tone to
talk about something
00:21:19.54\00:21:22.41
and this is, I think, the key.
00:21:22.44\00:21:24.95
That is a hugely
influential philosophical idea
00:21:24.98\00:21:28.38
that many people might
not even be familiar with
00:21:28.42\00:21:31.65
as a hugely
influential philosophical idea,
00:21:31.69\00:21:34.16
namely determinism.
00:21:34.19\00:21:35.52
Right.
00:21:35.56\00:21:36.89
In other words, there are people
00:21:36.93\00:21:38.26
that are walking
the streets right now
00:21:38.29\00:21:39.63
that have either watched a movie
00:21:39.66\00:21:41.00
or seen a sitcom, or read a book
00:21:41.03\00:21:42.36
or a magazine
article, or heard a story
00:21:42.40\00:21:43.73
and they and it's been,
00:21:43.77\00:21:45.10
well God or where
was God or God did,
00:21:45.13\00:21:47.64
and it just becomes a
part of our modern psyche
00:21:47.67\00:21:51.77
to some degree that
we are being acted upon
00:21:51.81\00:21:54.41
by the gods not in this case,
00:21:54.44\00:21:55.91
Zeus or Poseidon or
Mercury or whatever but God.
00:21:55.94\00:22:00.08
Like the insurance clause.
00:22:00.12\00:22:01.45
Like the insurance
clause, okay, exactly.
00:22:01.48\00:22:03.39
And yet many people
outside of this conversation
00:22:03.42\00:22:09.56
would be hugely
influenced by this,
00:22:09.59\00:22:11.76
but not even
aware of the language,
00:22:11.79\00:22:13.40
the history and things
00:22:13.43\00:22:14.76
that we were just
quickly sort of putting.
00:22:14.80\00:22:17.37
But I think we
should summarize by saying,
00:22:17.40\00:22:20.94
we're really dealing
with a picture of God
00:22:20.97\00:22:23.77
that is one in which
He is an absolute control,
00:22:23.81\00:22:27.78
micromanaging control
was the language that we use,
00:22:27.81\00:22:30.95
or He has
relinquished to some degree
00:22:30.98\00:22:36.15
control to a greater end.
00:22:36.18\00:22:38.25
Yeah, to a greater end.
00:22:38.29\00:22:39.89
And for me, the
questions would be,
00:22:39.92\00:22:42.39
first of all, is this true?
00:22:42.42\00:22:44.56
Is it true that God
is in absolute control
00:22:44.59\00:22:47.13
when we kind of address that?
00:22:47.16\00:22:49.43
And then the second question is,
00:22:49.46\00:22:50.80
if God has to some degree
relinquished control, why,
00:22:50.83\00:22:56.47
and in what sense has
He relinquished control?
00:22:56.50\00:22:59.74
And I know that what
you said, James, is so true
00:22:59.77\00:23:01.81
that when people
are going through
00:23:01.84\00:23:03.18
the vicissitudes of life,
00:23:03.21\00:23:04.55
the ups, the downs, the
difficulties, the trials,
00:23:04.58\00:23:06.18
the cancers, the
diseases, the deaths,
00:23:06.21\00:23:08.65
we want to console ourselves
00:23:08.68\00:23:10.22
by finding some
purpose, some meaning,
00:23:10.25\00:23:13.22
some intentionality in it,
and we feel consoled by it.
00:23:13.25\00:23:18.39
But the question is, is
everything that happens,
00:23:18.43\00:23:22.00
you quoted Romans 8:28,
00:23:22.03\00:23:24.27
does that mean
that God is in control
00:23:24.30\00:23:25.63
of every circumstance?
00:23:25.67\00:23:27.00
We're saying no. No.
00:23:27.04\00:23:28.37
Okay, so then
when is He in control?
00:23:28.40\00:23:29.74
When is He not in control?
00:23:29.77\00:23:31.37
And is it even
possible to tell the difference?
00:23:31.41\00:23:33.34
And you also
asked earlier you said,
00:23:33.38\00:23:36.34
what is that greater end
that that He's aiming for?
00:23:36.38\00:23:40.05
I think Jesus if
we accept the premise
00:23:40.08\00:23:43.42
without going into
the details to demonstrate
00:23:43.45\00:23:45.65
why we believe this is so
00:23:45.69\00:23:47.42
that Jesus was God in the flesh.
00:23:47.46\00:23:49.76
Okay, here's a
picture of God in the flesh
00:23:49.79\00:23:52.66
in Matthew Chapter 23.
00:23:52.69\00:23:56.00
Jesus sitting on a
hillside overlooking Jerusalem,
00:23:56.03\00:23:59.87
Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
the one who kills the prophets
00:23:59.90\00:24:04.04
and stones those
who are sent to her,
00:24:04.07\00:24:06.27
how often I wanted to
gather your children together
00:24:06.31\00:24:11.41
as a hen gathers her
chicks under her wings
00:24:11.45\00:24:14.48
and you were not willing.
00:24:14.52\00:24:17.02
So, in this
scripture is a picture of God.
00:24:17.05\00:24:21.59
This is God looking
at a human situation,
00:24:21.62\00:24:24.93
the city of Jerusalem
namely, and God is saying,
00:24:24.96\00:24:28.43
I wanted X, but
you didn't want X.
00:24:28.46\00:24:33.74
You weren't willing to go
where I wanted to take you.
00:24:33.77\00:24:38.77
This is Almighty God.
00:24:38.81\00:24:40.74
This is omnipotent
God, this is sovereign God
00:24:40.78\00:24:43.58
and the answer to your question,
00:24:43.61\00:24:45.58
what's the greater end,
what's the ultimate end?
00:24:45.61\00:24:48.25
I think one way we can say it,
00:24:48.28\00:24:49.75
and there are
lots of ways to say it,
00:24:49.78\00:24:51.12
one way you could say it
00:24:51.15\00:24:53.15
is that God
wants me to want Him.
00:24:53.19\00:24:58.79
God wants me to
want what He wants,
00:24:58.83\00:25:00.73
He doesn't want to be the one
00:25:00.76\00:25:03.37
who wants a situation
and then shove me into it,
00:25:03.40\00:25:09.37
force me into,
manipulate me into it.
00:25:09.40\00:25:11.91
So what's the greater end
00:25:11.94\00:25:14.28
to which God in
holding His power in reserve?
00:25:14.31\00:25:19.08
What's He up to?
00:25:19.11\00:25:20.45
He's up to this.
00:25:20.48\00:25:22.22
He wants me to want.
00:25:22.25\00:25:24.15
What He wants.
00:25:24.19\00:25:25.52
Yeah, not because
and we need to clarify.
00:25:25.55\00:25:27.92
He doesn't want me
to want what He wants,
00:25:27.96\00:25:30.33
because He's stubborn,
opinionated and dictatorial.
00:25:30.36\00:25:34.56
He wants me to
want what He wants
00:25:34.60\00:25:36.67
because what He wants.
00:25:36.70\00:25:38.03
It's in your
best interest anyway.
00:25:38.07\00:25:39.40
It's in my best interest. Yeah.
00:25:39.43\00:25:40.77
You know, it's like,
00:25:40.80\00:25:42.20
it's like somebody
has said that God can't,
00:25:42.24\00:25:46.24
God can't give me
happiness apart from Him
00:25:46.27\00:25:49.51
because no such thing exists.
00:25:49.54\00:25:50.88
Yeah.
00:25:50.91\00:25:52.25
There is no happiness
to be had apart from God
00:25:52.28\00:25:56.62
because in God is the recipe,
the principles for happiness.
00:25:56.65\00:26:03.09
So He doesn't want me.
00:26:03.12\00:26:05.03
That's why in the Bible,
00:26:05.06\00:26:07.36
God is described
as a jealous God.
00:26:07.40\00:26:10.37
And we look at jealousy
in a very self centered way.
00:26:10.40\00:26:13.47
I'm jealous because you know
00:26:13.50\00:26:15.30
that person is
flirting with my wife.
00:26:15.34\00:26:16.91
I'm jealous,
really for my feelings,
00:26:16.94\00:26:18.37
but God is jealous
for us, because of us.
00:26:18.41\00:26:21.94
He's jealous
because He sees things
00:26:21.98\00:26:24.95
that are happening to us
00:26:24.98\00:26:26.31
that He doesn't
want to happen to us
00:26:26.35\00:26:27.68
and so His jealousy is in...
00:26:27.72\00:26:29.48
Not self centered,
it's other centered.
00:26:29.52\00:26:30.85
No, it's others centered.
00:26:30.89\00:26:32.22
I'm jealous over
you with godly jealousy
00:26:32.25\00:26:34.36
because I want you
to have those things
00:26:34.39\00:26:37.36
I've always wanted you to
have and experience those things
00:26:37.39\00:26:39.26
I've always
wanted you to experience,
00:26:39.29\00:26:41.16
and you are not willing
to go in that direction.
00:26:41.20\00:26:43.50
You were gonna say something.
00:26:43.53\00:26:44.87
Well, I...
00:26:44.90\00:26:46.23
Yeah, just as you
guys were talking,
00:26:46.27\00:26:47.60
I was reading
from Genesis Chapter 2
00:26:47.64\00:26:49.60
and I was just thinking,
you're in Jesus, right?
00:26:49.64\00:26:51.67
You're in Matthew
and I was thinking,
00:26:51.71\00:26:53.11
well, what was
the deal from day one
00:26:53.14\00:26:56.31
like at the gate
with the kind of world
00:26:56.34\00:26:58.55
that God designed and created
00:26:58.58\00:27:00.88
in regard to His control
or His sovereignty over it
00:27:00.92\00:27:04.72
and our involvement in it,
00:27:04.75\00:27:06.09
and I just read this quote,
not to make some big point,
00:27:06.12\00:27:08.16
but this is
really cool verse here.
00:27:08.19\00:27:10.23
I never noticed this one detail,
00:27:10.26\00:27:11.69
it says when in
the Garden of Eden
00:27:11.73\00:27:13.50
and God's creating it says,
00:27:13.53\00:27:15.06
"And out of the ground,
00:27:15.10\00:27:16.46
the Lord God formed
every beast of the field
00:27:16.50\00:27:18.77
and every bird of the
air and brought them to Adam,
00:27:18.80\00:27:22.27
to see what he would call them."
00:27:22.30\00:27:24.81
Yep. Yeah, that's beautiful.
00:27:24.84\00:27:26.51
And whatever Adam
called each living creature
00:27:26.54\00:27:29.14
that's what it was called.
00:27:29.18\00:27:30.51
That was his name. Yeah.
00:27:30.55\00:27:31.88
So I just, I think that's
pretty cool is that God...
00:27:31.91\00:27:34.28
This may be a
trivial example of this
00:27:34.32\00:27:37.19
but God creates
this beautiful world,
00:27:37.22\00:27:39.65
this beautiful
realm in which we exist
00:27:39.69\00:27:43.63
and the representative
of the human race, right,
00:27:43.66\00:27:46.13
Adam, He puts
Adam there and He says,
00:27:46.16\00:27:48.13
Adam and He
brings all these animals.
00:27:48.16\00:27:50.00
He says, "So, Adam,
00:27:50.03\00:27:51.73
what do you think
we should call these?"
00:27:51.77\00:27:54.40
So He's right there.
00:27:54.44\00:27:55.77
He's bringing Adam
00:27:55.80\00:27:57.14
into the decision
making process he's in.
00:27:57.17\00:28:00.81
I wonder if when
God created this world,
00:28:00.84\00:28:05.35
that brought Him pleasure
because He exercised his will
00:28:05.38\00:28:08.18
as God brought
something into existence
00:28:08.22\00:28:09.98
and it brought Him
happiness and pleasure.
00:28:10.02\00:28:13.69
If God controls everything,
00:28:13.72\00:28:15.32
and we're not allowed
to make any decisions,
00:28:15.36\00:28:17.16
He would be stripping us
00:28:17.19\00:28:19.06
from that happiness and pleasure
00:28:19.09\00:28:20.43
because we would have
no potential for that,
00:28:20.46\00:28:22.33
'cause there'd be no
effect from our actions.
00:28:22.36\00:28:24.97
You know what I'm
saying? Absolutely.
00:28:25.00\00:28:26.33
Whereas here, Adam is invited
to experience the pleasure
00:28:26.37\00:28:31.07
of exercising his will.
00:28:31.11\00:28:32.81
And just, it's
something so simple,
00:28:32.84\00:28:34.31
so trivial as
naming the animals.
00:28:34.34\00:28:36.04
Anyway, I just
thought that was kind of cool.
00:28:36.08\00:28:37.68
It's right there in the garden.
00:28:37.71\00:28:39.61
I encountered the fact
that the universe is not one
00:28:39.65\00:28:42.28
which God controls everything.
00:28:42.32\00:28:43.65
Well, just a few verses
before that in Genesis 2:16,
00:28:43.69\00:28:46.12
one of my
favorite verses in Genesis
00:28:46.15\00:28:47.62
that's along those same lines.
00:28:47.66\00:28:48.99
It's where God says
00:28:49.02\00:28:50.36
to the early couple,
Adam and Eve, He says,
00:28:50.39\00:28:52.73
of every tree of the garden,
00:28:52.76\00:28:54.30
you may freely eat,
00:28:54.33\00:28:57.30
freely, to me the insertion
00:28:57.33\00:28:58.67
of that word
freely there is huge
00:28:58.70\00:29:00.04
because God is saying
you're free, you're free,
00:29:00.07\00:29:02.17
here's all of these trees,
00:29:02.20\00:29:03.54
we don't know
how many there were.
00:29:03.57\00:29:04.91
But let's say there
were 5000 fruit trees,
00:29:04.94\00:29:06.74
various varieties
from which to choose.
00:29:06.78\00:29:09.14
And God says to
every one of those trees,
00:29:09.18\00:29:11.05
the answer is yes.
00:29:11.08\00:29:12.51
It's a yes, yes,
yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
00:29:12.55\00:29:15.35
He says, but of
this one tree, verse 17,
00:29:15.38\00:29:17.52
just don't eat of this one.
00:29:17.55\00:29:19.05
So the ratio of yeses
to noes in God's governance
00:29:19.09\00:29:23.46
is 5000:1 or whatever, 2000:1
00:29:23.49\00:29:26.03
or however many there are.
00:29:26.06\00:29:27.66
A million to one.
00:29:27.70\00:29:29.33
God's freedom, as we've
talked about in the past,
00:29:29.36\00:29:32.63
and we're gonna come back
to this over and over again
00:29:32.67\00:29:34.20
in the hard question series,
00:29:34.24\00:29:35.77
is that freedom is
absolutely fundamental
00:29:35.80\00:29:38.44
to God's
governance of the universe,
00:29:38.47\00:29:40.81
because it's fundamental
to His own character.
00:29:40.84\00:29:42.78
Yes, that's the key.
00:29:42.81\00:29:44.28
It's fundamental to who He is.
00:29:44.31\00:29:46.05
And if that's true,
00:29:46.08\00:29:47.42
then this micromanage
dictatorial, Augustinian,
00:29:47.45\00:29:50.45
Hellenistic view of God,
00:29:50.49\00:29:53.19
it's gone, the
insurance clause God
00:29:53.22\00:29:55.06
who's causing and
that and this and that
00:29:55.09\00:29:57.53
and you're gonna put on
that shirt, that's gone.
00:29:57.56\00:29:59.29
Right.
00:29:59.33\00:30:00.66
But there's
still that overruling.
00:30:00.70\00:30:02.03
Yeah, God's still sovereign.
00:30:02.06\00:30:03.40
In fact, let me just
read these verses to you.
00:30:03.43\00:30:04.77
This is really
powerful to me in this context.
00:30:04.80\00:30:06.40
Daniel Chapter 10,
00:30:06.43\00:30:07.84
Daniel's been
praying for three weeks,
00:30:07.87\00:30:09.97
he's been fasting
and flicking himself
00:30:10.01\00:30:12.41
and praying for an answer
to an understanding of prophecy
00:30:12.44\00:30:16.54
that he got in
previous chapters.
00:30:16.58\00:30:18.15
He wants to know more
00:30:18.18\00:30:19.51
and he's
praying for three weeks,
00:30:19.55\00:30:20.88
and there's no
answer, no answer,
00:30:20.92\00:30:22.25
no answer, no answer, no answer.
00:30:22.28\00:30:23.62
And then finally, in
verse 12, Gabriel comes to him
00:30:23.65\00:30:26.82
and Gabriel says to
him, Do not fear Daniel,
00:30:26.86\00:30:29.19
for from the first day
00:30:29.22\00:30:30.56
that you set your
heart to understand
00:30:30.59\00:30:31.93
and humble yourself before God,
00:30:31.96\00:30:33.40
your words were heard.
00:30:33.43\00:30:34.76
So as soon as he prayed,
the very first day he prayed,
00:30:34.80\00:30:36.56
his words were heard.
00:30:36.60\00:30:37.93
So what Gabriel
is saying to Daniel,
00:30:37.97\00:30:40.24
"Listen, God hears and
God answers your prayers."
00:30:40.27\00:30:42.40
But notice what he
goes on to say, he says,
00:30:42.44\00:30:45.97
but the prince
and he goes on saying,
00:30:46.01\00:30:48.84
I've come for your word.
00:30:48.88\00:30:50.21
So God answers them,
00:30:50.25\00:30:51.58
but the prince of
the Kingdom of Persia
00:30:51.61\00:30:52.95
withstood me 21
days, that's three weeks,
00:30:52.98\00:30:55.48
that's the whole time,
00:30:55.52\00:30:56.85
withstood me 21
days and behold Michael,
00:30:56.89\00:30:59.15
one of the chief
princess came to help me,
00:30:59.19\00:31:01.66
for I've been left alone
with these kings of Persia.
00:31:01.69\00:31:06.23
Basically, what he is
saying is God heard your prayer
00:31:06.26\00:31:08.80
and God answered your
prayer the day that you prayed.
00:31:08.83\00:31:11.93
But there's this other force,
00:31:11.97\00:31:14.14
the powers of
the Prince of Persia,
00:31:14.17\00:31:16.34
the Prince of Persia is,
00:31:16.37\00:31:17.71
these guys were the
kings of this earth, the power,
00:31:17.74\00:31:20.01
the prince of
the prince is Satan.
00:31:20.04\00:31:21.94
He's the prince of this world.
00:31:21.98\00:31:23.51
So he's withstanding
00:31:23.55\00:31:25.01
and what's really
interesting about this
00:31:25.05\00:31:26.41
is the thing that
Daniel wants to understand
00:31:26.45\00:31:29.48
the prophecies that
Daniel were given was given.
00:31:29.52\00:31:32.55
These prophecies are
God's will, God's purpose,
00:31:32.59\00:31:37.33
God is going to carry
out in a sovereign sense,
00:31:37.36\00:31:40.20
He's gonna carry
out these prophecies
00:31:40.23\00:31:42.16
but Satan is withstanding Him.
00:31:42.20\00:31:43.93
Satan is trying to stop.
00:31:43.97\00:31:45.93
The prince of this world
00:31:45.97\00:31:47.30
is trying to
stop these prophecies
00:31:47.34\00:31:48.67
from being fulfilled.
00:31:48.70\00:31:50.04
So the point I'm
trying to make is this.
00:31:50.07\00:31:52.97
There are even things
that God is in control of
00:31:53.01\00:31:55.84
in the sense that
He's carrying out His will
00:31:55.88\00:31:58.31
in these prophecies
00:31:58.35\00:31:59.68
that Satan is
still withstanding him
00:31:59.71\00:32:01.42
that God is coming
in with reinforcements
00:32:01.45\00:32:03.25
to make sure that
these things happen,
00:32:03.28\00:32:05.89
that they are done in a way
00:32:05.92\00:32:07.26
that is in harmony with
His will and His purposes
00:32:07.29\00:32:10.03
and Satan is still
trying to come in there.
00:32:10.06\00:32:11.73
We're seeing this
conflict taking place
00:32:11.76\00:32:13.46
between these powers of
good and powers of evil.
00:32:13.50\00:32:16.63
So in the context
of Bible prophecy,
00:32:16.67\00:32:19.00
you have this incredible picture
00:32:19.03\00:32:22.07
of this conflict taking place
00:32:22.10\00:32:23.44
between what God wants
00:32:23.47\00:32:25.57
and the opposition to rebellion.
00:32:25.61\00:32:28.01
We ended our
whole last conversation
00:32:28.04\00:32:29.98
about if God is so good,
00:32:30.01\00:32:31.35
why is there so much suffering?
00:32:31.38\00:32:32.71
On that note, we
ended it on the note
00:32:32.75\00:32:34.65
of the scriptural
motif is one of conflict.
00:32:34.68\00:32:39.35
To me the way
00:32:39.39\00:32:40.72
I'm compartmentalizing
the four conversations
00:32:40.76\00:32:42.49
that we've had up to this point,
00:32:42.52\00:32:43.86
I see two major themes emerging,
00:32:43.89\00:32:46.19
freedom and
conflict that these are,
00:32:46.23\00:32:49.10
these are macro themes
00:32:49.13\00:32:50.57
for understanding
what's taking place
00:32:50.60\00:32:52.33
not just in
Scripture but in the world.
00:32:52.37\00:32:54.00
That's a great summary.
00:32:54.04\00:32:55.37
We have freedom.
00:32:55.40\00:32:56.74
God has given
freedom, He's granted freedom,
00:32:56.77\00:32:58.31
He loves freedom,
He values freedom,
00:32:58.34\00:32:59.97
His nature is that to
be free to grant freedom
00:33:00.01\00:33:04.11
but there's conflict
00:33:04.15\00:33:05.85
and here's the
interesting thing,
00:33:05.88\00:33:07.22
we can talk about
Satan and some people say,
00:33:07.25\00:33:08.58
well, where's Satan,
I've never seen Satan
00:33:08.62\00:33:09.95
or you know, demons,
angels, never seen any of that.
00:33:09.98\00:33:13.09
But let me say this,
00:33:13.12\00:33:14.49
I don't know if
you guys can relate,
00:33:14.52\00:33:15.86
but I have a suspicion
that not only the three of you
00:33:15.89\00:33:17.29
around this table can relate,
00:33:17.33\00:33:18.66
but all the
cameramen in this room
00:33:18.69\00:33:20.03
and everybody
outside of this room,
00:33:20.06\00:33:22.13
to the conflict that
I feel in my own self
00:33:22.16\00:33:26.94
to do right, to do
wrong, to do this, to do that,
00:33:26.97\00:33:29.80
to go this way to go
that way, the selfish thing,
00:33:29.84\00:33:32.51
the just thing or
the self-ish thing.
00:33:32.54\00:33:35.44
And they are sitting on your...
00:33:35.48\00:33:37.05
You know, that's
proverbial, isn't it?
00:33:37.08\00:33:38.41
The little demon
and the little angel.
00:33:38.45\00:33:39.78
That's proverbial
but isn't that emblematic
00:33:39.81\00:33:41.38
of something that
we all know intuitively
00:33:41.42\00:33:43.65
that there is a
moral struggle in our souls
00:33:43.69\00:33:48.26
to make the
choice or the choice.
00:33:48.29\00:33:52.36
Can I just comment
further on that, David, that,
00:33:52.39\00:33:55.43
increasingly there are people
in educated Western culture
00:33:55.46\00:33:59.90
who find the
existence of Satan and demons
00:33:59.93\00:34:05.37
completely ridiculous,
they just write it off.
00:34:05.41\00:34:09.14
Are you kidding me? Really?
00:34:09.18\00:34:11.01
We're going back
thousands of years now.
00:34:11.05\00:34:12.61
But here's the thing.
00:34:12.65\00:34:13.98
I don't know if
you've looked at it
00:34:14.02\00:34:15.35
from this standpoint,
00:34:15.38\00:34:16.72
we all know that evil is moral.
00:34:16.75\00:34:23.12
It's immoral but it's,
00:34:23.16\00:34:24.99
it has a moral quality to it
00:34:25.03\00:34:26.66
and therefore we
know that it is personal,
00:34:26.70\00:34:31.53
that has its origin in persons.
00:34:31.57\00:34:34.10
Take the devil, take
demons out of the picture,
00:34:34.14\00:34:37.41
and evil as it
occurs as we witness it,
00:34:37.44\00:34:40.68
it arises out of
a free moral agent,
00:34:40.71\00:34:44.01
making bad decisions to
rape, to pillage, to murder,
00:34:44.05\00:34:47.78
to control, to do whatever.
00:34:47.82\00:34:49.15
In other words,
it's not a tree sitting
00:34:49.18\00:34:50.52
in the middle of the field.
00:34:50.55\00:34:51.89
It's not
abstract, it's personal.
00:34:51.92\00:34:54.39
So the way I've
thought about it in the past,
00:34:54.42\00:34:57.23
is that the most
logical thing in the world
00:34:57.26\00:35:01.20
would be that if evil exists
00:35:01.23\00:35:03.63
and we all believe that it does,
00:35:03.67\00:35:05.77
the most logical thing
in the world is to believe
00:35:05.80\00:35:08.04
that it's
traceable to personal...
00:35:08.07\00:35:11.97
To an agent.
00:35:12.01\00:35:13.34
To a personal agent.
00:35:13.38\00:35:14.71
I get that.
00:35:14.74\00:35:16.08
It's not like
the law of gravity.
00:35:16.11\00:35:19.98
It's not physics.
00:35:20.02\00:35:21.78
Evil is the personal exercise
00:35:21.82\00:35:26.49
of wills to do perverted,
00:35:26.52\00:35:29.69
bad, ugly, horrible things.
00:35:29.72\00:35:32.33
So when people ask me,
00:35:32.36\00:35:33.76
"Do you actually
believe that the devil exists?"
00:35:33.80\00:35:36.77
I say, "Look at
the world around you.
00:35:36.80\00:35:38.60
The only way to make sense
00:35:38.63\00:35:40.97
out of superhuman evil
00:35:41.00\00:35:44.74
that is just beyond anything
00:35:44.77\00:35:46.54
that we can
calculate in this world
00:35:46.57\00:35:48.94
is to think that there must be
00:35:48.98\00:35:50.51
some super human
evil personal agent
00:35:50.55\00:35:54.58
ultimately behind it.
00:35:54.62\00:35:57.02
I love that, Ty,
with your permission,
00:35:57.05\00:35:58.39
I'm just gonna simplify it,
00:35:58.42\00:35:59.75
not only for the viewer's
sake but for my own sake.
00:35:59.79\00:36:01.26
Let me see if I
can do this. Okay.
00:36:01.29\00:36:03.12
You're saying
that when we used...
00:36:03.16\00:36:04.49
It needs to be
simplified, by the way,
00:36:04.53\00:36:05.86
'cause it's only the second time
00:36:05.89\00:36:07.23
I've ever said it.
00:36:07.26\00:36:08.60
Okay.
00:36:08.63\00:36:09.96
So you're saying that
00:36:10.00\00:36:11.33
when we see evil
acts done on earth...
00:36:11.37\00:36:12.70
Yeah.
00:36:12.73\00:36:14.07
On the news, in
your local neighborhood,
00:36:14.10\00:36:15.44
somebody was shot,
somebody was whatever,
00:36:15.47\00:36:16.81
we trace that not to a tree,
not to Iraq, not to a car...
00:36:16.84\00:36:20.38
Not to an inanimate wall.
00:36:20.41\00:36:21.74
Not to a glass of
water, we trace it to a person,
00:36:21.78\00:36:24.15
an agent who has misused or
perverted his or her friend.
00:36:24.18\00:36:26.68
That's right.
00:36:26.72\00:36:28.05
And you're saying, well,
hey, if that's the case here
00:36:28.08\00:36:29.72
in what we see...
00:36:29.75\00:36:31.39
Then why wouldn't
it also be the case
00:36:31.42\00:36:32.85
that the sum total
of evil in the world
00:36:32.89\00:36:34.76
which is far
beyond our comprehension
00:36:34.79\00:36:37.03
would also be
traceable to an agent?
00:36:37.06\00:36:38.93
That's what I'm
saying. I love that.
00:36:38.96\00:36:40.30
Yeah.
00:36:40.33\00:36:41.66
I see that, and then now
let's further corroborate that.
00:36:41.70\00:36:44.47
Not only is that what
our experience is telling us,
00:36:44.50\00:36:48.10
Scripture says, "Oh,
and by the way, evil,
00:36:48.14\00:36:51.34
evil is traceable
to an angelic rebellion
00:36:51.37\00:36:54.08
against the government of God."
00:36:54.11\00:36:55.44
Yes.
00:36:55.48\00:36:56.81
"Until the day that
iniquity was found in you."
00:36:56.85\00:36:58.28
Right, right.
00:36:58.31\00:36:59.65
So this is going back
to we asked the question
00:36:59.68\00:37:01.25
a few conversations ago,
00:37:01.28\00:37:02.62
how do we know that
the Bible is God's Word,
00:37:02.65\00:37:04.52
that the Bible is inspired?
00:37:04.55\00:37:05.89
And we said, "Well,
there's this internal
00:37:05.92\00:37:07.26
and this external thing.
00:37:07.29\00:37:09.66
There's this external reality,
00:37:09.69\00:37:11.03
but then this is
internal corroboration.
00:37:11.06\00:37:12.56
That's for me, this
is an example of that.
00:37:12.59\00:37:14.30
Yeah.
00:37:14.33\00:37:15.66
That is, that's a very
good description of the world
00:37:15.70\00:37:17.43
I see around me,
00:37:17.47\00:37:18.80
then I go to the text
00:37:18.83\00:37:20.17
and I'm not asked to
believe that yin and yang,
00:37:20.20\00:37:22.07
you know, evil can be
good and good can be evil,
00:37:22.10\00:37:24.24
and they exist in a
dualistic counterbalance
00:37:24.27\00:37:26.41
and I can't accept that,
00:37:26.44\00:37:28.34
I can't accept when a
little girl is kidnapped
00:37:28.38\00:37:30.25
from her parent's home
and was taken and abused,
00:37:30.28\00:37:32.91
and raped and killed,
00:37:32.95\00:37:34.28
and dumped somewhere in a river.
00:37:34.32\00:37:35.95
That's wrong.
00:37:35.98\00:37:37.32
That in no sense is good.
00:37:37.35\00:37:38.69
It's in no sense good in
it and no sense is necessary.
00:37:38.72\00:37:41.49
And don't tell me
that I couldn't understand
00:37:41.52\00:37:43.59
goodness and
kindness and magnanimity
00:37:43.63\00:37:45.29
and grace and without
that, some people say,
00:37:45.33\00:37:47.86
"Oh, no, you'd
never know what good was
00:37:47.90\00:37:49.23
if there hadn't been evil."
00:37:49.26\00:37:50.60
Oh, no, or contraire.
00:37:50.63\00:37:52.57
I don't need that to see.
00:37:52.60\00:37:54.04
So I hate that, that's
an enemy to me, that's,
00:37:54.07\00:37:57.81
and it's an enemy to God.
00:37:57.84\00:37:59.17
Yes.
00:37:59.21\00:38:00.58
God hates that.
00:38:00.61\00:38:03.11
He hates that abuse.
00:38:03.14\00:38:04.48
He hates that
perversion, He hates iniquity.
00:38:04.51\00:38:07.95
He hates the
perversion of the gift
00:38:07.98\00:38:09.32
that He has entrusted to us.
00:38:09.35\00:38:10.69
And there's a
lot of intellectual,
00:38:10.72\00:38:13.15
rational,
resolve, and satisfaction
00:38:13.19\00:38:17.16
in knowing that ultimately,
00:38:17.19\00:38:19.46
the universe in the
world is governed by a God
00:38:19.49\00:38:22.63
who Himself
stands against all evil
00:38:22.66\00:38:27.74
that is going on in this world.
00:38:27.77\00:38:30.51
He's not complacent. No, no.
00:38:30.54\00:38:32.21
He's not indifferent.
00:38:32.24\00:38:33.74
Some people get
uncomfortable with a God
00:38:33.78\00:38:35.21
who's upset, who's angry.
00:38:35.24\00:38:38.88
You wouldn't
want it any other way.
00:38:38.91\00:38:40.25
Who would want it any other way?
00:38:40.28\00:38:41.62
Well, how could
you handle the God
00:38:41.65\00:38:42.98
who couldn't get angry?
00:38:43.02\00:38:44.35
Yeah, you don't
want an indifferent God.
00:38:44.39\00:38:45.72
I don't even want a
friend who can't get angry
00:38:45.75\00:38:47.69
at the stuff
going on in this world.
00:38:47.72\00:38:49.06
Well Job got angry and
God said that's my man.
00:38:49.09\00:38:52.73
Now Job got angry
at God and God said,
00:38:52.76\00:38:54.30
"Hey, I'm not worried
about him getting Angry me."
00:38:54.33\00:38:55.66
The anger was correct
00:38:55.70\00:38:57.03
but it was the
direction that's wrong.
00:38:57.07\00:38:58.40
Yes.
00:38:58.43\00:38:59.77
And when Job got
angry, God said that's my man.
00:38:59.80\00:39:01.14
He's angry at the
same things I'm angry at.
00:39:01.17\00:39:03.61
Your friends, Job,
00:39:03.64\00:39:04.97
those three guys
totally misrepresented me.
00:39:05.01\00:39:06.51
They think this is
okay. It's not okay.
00:39:06.54\00:39:08.11
I'm glad you're
angry. Pray for them.
00:39:08.14\00:39:09.94
Yeah, if you were
able, as someone I know,
00:39:09.98\00:39:13.92
to witness the horrific
things going on in this world,
00:39:13.95\00:39:17.05
and for it not to upset you,
00:39:17.09\00:39:20.29
I would think you
need professional help.
00:39:20.32\00:39:22.59
Somehow you're not
firing on all cylinders
00:39:22.62\00:39:26.19
to witness evil and
not be angry about it.
00:39:26.23\00:39:30.73
How could we
conceive of a God who is good,
00:39:30.77\00:39:33.90
who can look down upon our world
00:39:33.94\00:39:36.00
and not be in a holy sense,
00:39:36.04\00:39:38.34
in a righteous sense just livid
00:39:38.37\00:39:41.01
about the kinds
of dastardly deeds
00:39:41.04\00:39:43.04
that we're doing
against one another.
00:39:43.08\00:39:44.71
The thing that
makes us human is the fact
00:39:44.75\00:39:46.08
that we are repulsed from
these things, we do react.
00:39:46.11\00:39:48.88
We're not in the animal kingdom
where things are just accepted
00:39:48.92\00:39:51.95
because, I mean we assume
or we have in psychoanalyze
00:39:51.99\00:39:55.02
a lion or a tiger, whatever,
00:39:55.06\00:39:56.62
but we and by
observation of nature,
00:39:56.66\00:39:58.76
we assume, hey,
that's the way it is.
00:39:58.79\00:40:01.40
But the thing
that makes us human
00:40:01.43\00:40:02.76
is the fact that we react
00:40:02.80\00:40:04.13
to these things
and we get angry.
00:40:04.17\00:40:05.90
I know we've got
to take a break here.
00:40:05.93\00:40:07.47
Ty asked the question,
how could we not respond?
00:40:07.50\00:40:10.81
How could we not be
happy with a God like that?
00:40:10.84\00:40:12.77
And the answer is
00:40:12.81\00:40:14.14
this whole other
view that we talked about.
00:40:14.18\00:40:15.51
Yeah.
00:40:15.54\00:40:16.88
If you think that God
is, if that is His will
00:40:16.91\00:40:19.15
and that's His will
and that's His will.
00:40:19.18\00:40:22.25
It's a non mean
of the sensibilities
00:40:22.28\00:40:25.45
of the image of God in
us, the love of God in us
00:40:25.49\00:40:27.66
and it's not
just done in that way,
00:40:27.69\00:40:29.22
it's done in a
number of different ways.
00:40:29.26\00:40:30.73
Maybe in our next
section we can touch on that.
00:40:30.76\00:40:32.23
Yeah, we have to take a break
00:40:32.26\00:40:33.80
but these are serious things
00:40:33.83\00:40:36.63
and we just
need to understand it
00:40:36.67\00:40:38.03
the best we can as we
continue the conversation.
00:40:38.07\00:40:40.44
Amen.
00:40:40.47\00:40:41.80
Truth is not merely a
list of theological facts,
00:40:48.11\00:40:51.25
but rather the revelation
00:40:51.28\00:40:52.61
of God's beautiful
love in Jesus Christ.
00:40:52.65\00:40:55.28
Truth Link is a
series of Bible study guides
00:40:55.32\00:40:58.19
that magnify God's love
00:40:58.22\00:40:59.89
as the center of
every Bible doctrine.
00:40:59.92\00:41:02.42
To receive your
free copy of lesson 1,
00:41:02.46\00:41:04.89
call 877-585-1111
00:41:04.93\00:41:09.03
or write to Light Bearers,
00:41:09.06\00:41:10.83
37457, Jasper Lowell Road,
00:41:10.87\00:41:13.74
Jasper, Oregon 97438.
00:41:13.77\00:41:16.67
Once again,
00:41:16.71\00:41:18.04
to receive your free
copy of Truth Link lesson 1,
00:41:18.07\00:41:21.04
call 877-585-1111
00:41:21.08\00:41:24.91
or write to Light Bearers,
00:41:24.95\00:41:26.61
37457, Jasper Lowell Road,
00:41:26.65\00:41:29.58
Jasper, Oregon 97438.
00:41:29.62\00:41:32.89
Simply ask for
Truth Link, lesson 1.
00:41:32.92\00:41:35.92
So I think we need to
get practical you guys,
00:41:47.20\00:41:50.04
we are dealing with this subject
00:41:50.07\00:41:52.71
on a philosophical level.
00:41:52.74\00:41:55.08
We're talking
about the complexity
00:41:55.11\00:41:57.68
of the intersection
between God's sovereignty
00:41:57.71\00:42:01.85
and His power and His will,
00:42:01.88\00:42:04.32
intersecting with
the fact that we're free
00:42:04.35\00:42:06.55
and we have free wills,
00:42:06.59\00:42:08.16
and there's
Satan and he intersects
00:42:08.19\00:42:11.53
and we explained all of that,
00:42:11.56\00:42:12.89
but I think there's a
very practical question
00:42:12.93\00:42:16.20
that we need to address.
00:42:16.23\00:42:17.90
Okay, so, we're free
00:42:17.93\00:42:20.30
and God isn't
micromanaging the world,
00:42:20.34\00:42:22.60
He's not in a kind
of control freak mode
00:42:22.64\00:42:27.64
where He's determining
everything that happens.
00:42:27.68\00:42:30.11
So what?
00:42:30.15\00:42:31.48
So where do we go from there?
00:42:31.51\00:42:33.35
I have a friend, a
couple, a husband and wife,
00:42:33.38\00:42:36.69
for example, just to drive this
in a very practical direction.
00:42:36.72\00:42:41.29
He's preparing
for local meetings
00:42:41.32\00:42:44.16
that are gonna take
place where people are invited
00:42:44.19\00:42:46.23
to come and hear
the gospel preach.
00:42:46.26\00:42:48.70
He pulls his car over,
00:42:48.73\00:42:51.17
he grabs the sign
that he's gonna nail
00:42:51.20\00:42:53.94
into the power pole
there, the wooden pole.
00:42:53.97\00:42:57.57
He opens his truck door.
00:42:57.61\00:43:00.31
He steps out, shuts the door,
00:43:00.34\00:43:03.41
and boom, he's killed on impact.
00:43:03.45\00:43:04.85
The car that is coming by
00:43:04.88\00:43:06.61
doesn't see him
getting out of his vehicle
00:43:06.65\00:43:09.25
and kills him on impact.
00:43:09.28\00:43:10.62
He leaves a wife
and children behind.
00:43:10.65\00:43:13.32
Wow.
00:43:13.36\00:43:14.69
Okay, now she's faced
00:43:14.72\00:43:16.93
with having to sort through
00:43:16.96\00:43:20.63
not just a
philosophical subject,
00:43:20.66\00:43:24.27
she's left to sort through
the visceral pain of that loss
00:43:24.30\00:43:30.51
but then you can
take it to another level.
00:43:30.54\00:43:32.97
You've got people
doing horrible things
00:43:33.01\00:43:35.51
in the world all the time.
00:43:35.54\00:43:39.15
All you have to do is
look at the evening news,
00:43:39.18\00:43:42.32
and it's almost
more than you can bear.
00:43:42.35\00:43:45.45
So God's not in control
in a micromanaging sense.
00:43:45.49\00:43:50.79
What then?
00:43:50.83\00:43:52.89
Do we just give up and say,
00:43:52.93\00:43:54.36
you know, things
are gonna happen,
00:43:54.40\00:43:56.50
or did
Scripture give us guidance
00:43:56.53\00:43:59.27
as to how God
would have us relate
00:43:59.30\00:44:03.81
to the evil that's in our lives.
00:44:03.84\00:44:05.17
Yeah, I think going
back to the text we looked at
00:44:05.21\00:44:08.71
earlier in Genesis
Chapter 2 before there was evil,
00:44:08.74\00:44:11.68
before there was sin,
00:44:11.71\00:44:13.05
before there was suffering,
pain, cancer, what have you,
00:44:13.08\00:44:16.08
how God brought Adam and Eve
in to decision making processes
00:44:16.12\00:44:21.69
on earth in the garden.
00:44:21.72\00:44:23.12
He says, "Hey, what
would you name these animals?"
00:44:23.16\00:44:26.23
So in the same way
00:44:26.26\00:44:28.10
that they had a
contribution to make
00:44:28.13\00:44:32.40
before sin and pain
came into existence,
00:44:32.43\00:44:35.80
that it would make sense
now that you're asking now what?
00:44:35.84\00:44:38.44
Okay, we know that
God isn't like this
00:44:38.47\00:44:40.84
yet this craziness happens.
00:44:40.88\00:44:42.64
What do we do now?
00:44:42.68\00:44:44.15
Well, it seems to me like
00:44:44.18\00:44:45.55
the answer would be the same
00:44:45.58\00:44:47.35
as it was prior to sin and evil,
00:44:47.38\00:44:49.58
just like human beings
00:44:49.62\00:44:51.39
were expected to
contribute to take,
00:44:51.42\00:44:53.79
maybe what do you
think of this term,
00:44:53.82\00:44:55.16
to take ownership.
00:44:55.19\00:44:56.52
Yeah.
00:44:56.56\00:44:57.89
Take ownership of the stuff
that happens on this planet.
00:44:57.93\00:45:02.33
After sin, now
we're in this crazy world,
00:45:02.36\00:45:05.73
we know God is a God of love.
00:45:05.77\00:45:07.10
We know what His
character is like,
00:45:07.14\00:45:08.77
what do we do now?
00:45:08.80\00:45:10.14
Well, God would be inviting
us just like He did in Genesis.
00:45:10.17\00:45:15.18
To get involved.
00:45:15.21\00:45:16.54
To get involved,
to take ownership,
00:45:16.58\00:45:18.08
to contribute to join Him
00:45:18.11\00:45:21.15
in merging our
heart with His heart.
00:45:21.18\00:45:23.42
And, at least to me,
00:45:23.45\00:45:24.82
that's at least the
beginning of what I'm looking.
00:45:24.85\00:45:26.62
I have scripture for that.
00:45:26.65\00:45:28.69
Isaiah Chapter 1,
00:45:28.72\00:45:30.23
you have all
these horrible things
00:45:30.26\00:45:31.96
that are being delineated,
00:45:31.99\00:45:33.33
terrible things
that are taking place,
00:45:33.36\00:45:34.80
oppression and injustice
of every kind and then,
00:45:34.83\00:45:39.70
rather than God just kind
of breaking in and saying,
00:45:39.73\00:45:42.67
you know, here comes God
00:45:42.70\00:45:44.04
with His all mighty
power to the rescue,
00:45:44.07\00:45:46.21
I'll sort this out.
00:45:46.24\00:45:47.88
This is interesting.
00:45:47.91\00:45:49.24
God turns the tables and He says
00:45:49.28\00:45:52.35
to those perpetrating the
evil, He says to human beings,
00:45:52.38\00:45:54.85
He says to His own people,
00:45:54.88\00:45:56.48
wash yourselves and
make yourselves clean
00:45:56.52\00:46:00.16
in verse 16.
00:46:00.19\00:46:01.69
Put away evil from your
doings, do you get that?
00:46:01.72\00:46:05.23
Totally.
00:46:05.26\00:46:06.59
Put away evil from your doings,
00:46:06.63\00:46:09.23
He says, from before my eyes.
00:46:09.26\00:46:13.34
God's depicting
Himself as beholding the evil
00:46:13.37\00:46:16.20
and He's saying,
you stop doing it.
00:46:16.24\00:46:18.41
I saw a caption
one time in a magazine
00:46:18.44\00:46:21.04
that was
depicting a conversation
00:46:21.08\00:46:24.71
between human beings and God,
00:46:24.75\00:46:26.88
and the human
beings were saying,
00:46:26.92\00:46:29.95
"God, why don't
you do something?"
00:46:29.98\00:46:32.02
And the caption
above was God's saying,
00:46:32.05\00:46:34.82
"That's my
question precisely to you.
00:46:34.86\00:46:37.43
Why don't you do something?"
00:46:37.46\00:46:39.33
And that's
what's happening here.
00:46:39.36\00:46:41.03
God is saying, you
stop and watch this.
00:46:41.06\00:46:43.80
He goes on and He
says, learn to do good,
00:46:43.83\00:46:47.20
cease to do evil, seek justice.
00:46:47.24\00:46:50.11
These are all imperatives.
00:46:50.14\00:46:51.74
These are all God's
saying, seek justice David.
00:46:51.77\00:46:55.18
He says, rebuke
the oppressor, Jeffrey.
00:46:55.21\00:46:58.41
You witness oppression.
00:46:58.45\00:46:59.95
You rebuke the
oppressor, tell the oppressor,
00:46:59.98\00:47:03.55
don't do that to
other human beings.
00:47:03.59\00:47:06.45
Plead for the widow, James.
00:47:06.49\00:47:08.56
God is saying to James,
get involved with the widow.
00:47:08.59\00:47:11.39
Please... Take the literature.
00:47:11.43\00:47:12.76
Yeah, come now,
00:47:12.79\00:47:14.13
let us reason
together, says the Lord.
00:47:14.16\00:47:15.76
Though your sins
are like scarlet,
00:47:15.80\00:47:17.13
they shall be as white as snow,
00:47:17.17\00:47:18.97
though they are
red like crimson,
00:47:19.00\00:47:20.40
they shall be as wool
00:47:20.44\00:47:22.10
if you are willing and obedient.
00:47:26.51\00:47:28.98
This is a powerful passage.
00:47:29.01\00:47:30.35
It is.
00:47:30.38\00:47:31.71
It's not just this one though,
00:47:31.75\00:47:33.08
there's tons of
passages like this
00:47:33.11\00:47:35.82
that basically suggest
that we are free moral agents
00:47:35.85\00:47:39.35
that have the choice
that God is sovereign,
00:47:39.39\00:47:41.69
God has given us a
choice that we are to make
00:47:41.72\00:47:44.59
and that choice has
impact on other human beings.
00:47:44.63\00:47:47.13
Yeah.
00:47:47.16\00:47:48.50
Not that we have the
power to cleanse ourselves,
00:47:48.53\00:47:49.86
not that we have the power
00:47:49.90\00:47:51.23
to do these things
in and of ourselves
00:47:51.27\00:47:52.73
but we have the power to choose.
00:47:52.77\00:47:54.10
Yeah, yeah.
00:47:54.14\00:47:55.47
It shows what we see as a
metanarrative in Scripture
00:47:55.50\00:47:59.17
as an overarching
theme in Scripture
00:47:59.21\00:48:01.28
and that is that God
takes human beings seriously.
00:48:01.31\00:48:06.11
He says, hey, like
the caption you saw
00:48:06.15\00:48:09.28
on the magazine,
well, what are you doing?
00:48:09.32\00:48:10.92
Yeah. Yeah, I like that.
00:48:10.95\00:48:12.29
Too often we want God to come in
00:48:12.32\00:48:13.92
and do for us what He would say,
00:48:13.96\00:48:18.09
"Hey, well you can
handle that situation."
00:48:18.13\00:48:19.69
Now there are
things that we can't do.
00:48:19.73\00:48:21.06
Right.
00:48:21.10\00:48:22.43
But then, I think
God has put the church,
00:48:22.46\00:48:23.80
I just tweeted
this the other day.
00:48:23.83\00:48:25.17
The church is one of God's gifts
00:48:25.20\00:48:26.74
to the world.
00:48:26.77\00:48:28.54
The church is a body of people,
it should be a body of people,
00:48:28.57\00:48:31.61
a body of believers
that are bringing about
00:48:31.64\00:48:34.74
the kingdom of God on
earth as it is in heaven.
00:48:34.78\00:48:38.05
It should be in
terms of teaching to read
00:48:38.08\00:48:40.18
and undoing injustice
00:48:40.22\00:48:41.55
and undoing
oppression and rescuing from,
00:48:41.58\00:48:44.19
in a variety of social venues,
00:48:44.22\00:48:46.35
familial venues,
addiction venues,
00:48:46.39\00:48:48.32
well, all of that,
00:48:48.36\00:48:49.69
the church is
supposed to be doing good,
00:48:49.72\00:48:51.76
extending the kingdom
of God and bringing truth
00:48:51.79\00:48:55.43
about the
character of God to earth.
00:48:55.46\00:48:58.03
If we sit around
twiddling our thumbs,
00:48:58.07\00:48:59.63
sitting on our, you know,
00:48:59.67\00:49:01.14
hands as it were
on padded pews...
00:49:01.17\00:49:03.30
And saying God is sovereign
00:49:03.34\00:49:05.21
God is in control
of all these things.
00:49:05.24\00:49:06.84
Doesn't really matter,
everything's gonna be okay,
00:49:06.88\00:49:08.68
recognize the purpose,
so, you know, we just kind of.
00:49:08.71\00:49:11.45
That view breeds inactivity.
00:49:11.48\00:49:13.11
I think so.
00:49:13.15\00:49:14.48
It breeds listlessness,
apathy, indifference,
00:49:14.52\00:49:17.75
and yet in
Scripture you read that.
00:49:17.79\00:49:19.72
It's funny because the
text I read in Isaiah 1
00:49:19.75\00:49:21.92
resonates very similarly
00:49:21.96\00:49:24.19
to what is in Isaiah Chapter 6.
00:49:24.23\00:49:27.66
I love this, Isaiah
chapter 6, excuse me, Micah 6:6,
00:49:27.70\00:49:31.80
"With what shall I
come before the Lord,
00:49:31.83\00:49:33.17
and bow myself
before the High God?
00:49:33.20\00:49:35.20
Shall I come before
Him with burnt offerings,
00:49:35.24\00:49:36.91
with calves a year old?
00:49:36.94\00:49:38.41
Will the Lord be
pleased with thousands of rams,
00:49:38.44\00:49:40.28
ten thousand rivers of oil?
00:49:40.31\00:49:41.74
Shall I give the
firstborn for my transgression,
00:49:41.78\00:49:43.88
the fruit of body
for the sin of my soul?"
00:49:43.91\00:49:45.61
Now I want to make a
modern application here.
00:49:45.65\00:49:47.45
Should I just
become super religious?
00:49:47.48\00:49:50.89
Right? In other
words, this is a...
00:49:50.92\00:49:52.35
Should I just do
really religious things,
00:49:52.39\00:49:53.96
things that are in house
00:49:53.99\00:49:55.32
that are understood
by religious peoples
00:49:55.36\00:49:56.69
in a religious context
is that what God's asks us.
00:49:56.73\00:49:58.13
Shut myself away and
pray, and read, and meditate.
00:49:58.16\00:50:00.33
Exactly, see
after hyper religiosity,
00:50:00.36\00:50:02.56
well, he is but
not misunderstood.
00:50:02.60\00:50:04.63
He says, okay,
here it is, verse 8,
00:50:04.67\00:50:06.67
"He has shown you
a man what is good:
00:50:06.70\00:50:09.87
what does the
Lord require of you?"
00:50:09.90\00:50:11.34
And he gives three things,
to do justly, to love mercy,
00:50:11.37\00:50:14.54
and to walk
humbly with your God.
00:50:14.58\00:50:17.18
That's what God is after.
00:50:17.21\00:50:18.98
We're asking the question,
00:50:19.01\00:50:20.38
if God is in
control, are we free?
00:50:20.42\00:50:21.95
One of the ways that
God is exerting His will
00:50:21.98\00:50:24.85
and extending
His kingdom on earth
00:50:24.89\00:50:26.69
is not through the
mysterious interposition
00:50:26.72\00:50:30.53
of His hand into human events.
00:50:30.56\00:50:33.06
It's through the church.
00:50:33.09\00:50:34.43
It's through the tithes
00:50:34.46\00:50:35.80
and the people, it's through us.
00:50:35.83\00:50:37.40
Yeah, through human being.
00:50:37.43\00:50:39.13
He does the other, but
it's not in the sense that.
00:50:39.17\00:50:42.20
Go ahead. You keep going.
00:50:42.24\00:50:43.57
What is not in the sense that
00:50:43.61\00:50:44.94
we have been trying to explain
00:50:44.97\00:50:47.48
is over the top micromanagement,
00:50:47.51\00:50:49.61
and I like this
because that verse 8
00:50:49.64\00:50:51.65
begins with his showing
the old man what is good.
00:50:51.68\00:50:54.42
It is the goodness of God
00:50:54.45\00:50:55.78
that motivates and
leads us to walk humbly
00:50:55.82\00:50:58.82
and to show mercy
and to love justice.
00:50:58.85\00:51:01.29
It's the goodness of
God that motivates us.
00:51:01.32\00:51:03.22
And if we see God
00:51:03.26\00:51:04.59
as a
micromanaging control God deity.
00:51:04.63\00:51:06.76
Freak.
00:51:06.80\00:51:08.13
Okay, I don't
want to use that word,
00:51:08.16\00:51:09.50
but if we see Him that way,
00:51:09.53\00:51:10.87
it's not gonna
lead us to do anything
00:51:10.90\00:51:12.23
'cause there's no
reason for us to do anything,
00:51:12.27\00:51:13.60
but if we see
God as a God of love
00:51:13.64\00:51:14.97
who honors free
will and free choice,
00:51:15.00\00:51:16.67
a God who has macro-management
but not micromanagement.
00:51:16.71\00:51:19.17
A God who's
listening and looking at us
00:51:19.21\00:51:21.04
and what did you say?
00:51:21.08\00:51:22.41
What was the
phrase you used earlier,
00:51:22.44\00:51:23.78
when He looks at human beings?
00:51:23.81\00:51:25.15
Takes us seriously?
00:51:25.18\00:51:26.51
He takes us seriously.
00:51:26.55\00:51:27.88
You have part to play,
00:51:27.92\00:51:29.25
you have something that
I need your contribution.
00:51:29.28\00:51:30.62
Then there's a completely
different picture here.
00:51:30.65\00:51:31.99
The thing that
came to my mind is
00:51:32.02\00:51:33.36
John the Baptist
was one of those people.
00:51:33.39\00:51:34.72
John the Baptist
was one of those people
00:51:34.76\00:51:36.09
that was one of God's
hands, mouths, feet on earth.
00:51:36.12\00:51:40.10
He was making a difference.
00:51:40.13\00:51:41.46
He's out, he's preaching,
he's announcing, you know,
00:51:41.50\00:51:43.77
may every valley
be made, you know,
00:51:43.80\00:51:45.63
fill the valleys and
bring the mountains down.
00:51:45.67\00:51:47.30
Jesus is coming
and check this out.
00:51:47.34\00:51:49.90
Jesus is speaking
about this experience
00:51:49.94\00:51:51.64
and it says when
all the tax collectors,
00:51:51.67\00:51:53.44
I'm in Luke 7:29,
00:51:53.48\00:51:56.34
"When all the people heard him"
00:51:56.38\00:51:57.71
John the Baptist, or excuse me,
00:51:57.75\00:51:59.48
"Jesus, even the tax
collectors justified God
00:51:59.51\00:52:01.85
having been baptized
with the baptism of John."
00:52:01.88\00:52:03.65
So he's talking
about John. Now watch this.
00:52:03.69\00:52:05.72
Luke says, "But the
Pharisees and lawyers
00:52:05.75\00:52:07.96
rejected the will
of God for themselves
00:52:07.99\00:52:10.43
not having been
baptized by John."
00:52:10.46\00:52:14.33
They rejected the will of God.
00:52:14.36\00:52:15.70
That's exactly
right. So God has a will.
00:52:15.73\00:52:17.53
His will is for
people to be baptized.
00:52:17.57\00:52:19.43
God enlist John to
help Him carry out His will.
00:52:19.47\00:52:22.60
So here's God's
will here's John's will,
00:52:22.64\00:52:25.31
coalescing with God's will
00:52:25.34\00:52:26.88
and yet even the
force of John's oration,
00:52:26.91\00:52:29.28
the power of his ministry,
00:52:29.31\00:52:30.65
the strength of
his consistent witness
00:52:30.68\00:52:32.55
coupled with
God's will on earth,
00:52:32.58\00:52:35.22
and some people said, no thanks.
00:52:35.25\00:52:37.59
You know what?
00:52:37.62\00:52:38.95
This is interesting, too,
00:52:38.99\00:52:40.32
because in 1
Thessalonians Chapter 2,
00:52:40.36\00:52:41.79
Paul is writing to
the believers there.
00:52:41.82\00:52:44.99
He just
established a church there
00:52:45.03\00:52:46.36
and he left them and
this is what he says.
00:52:46.39\00:52:47.73
He says, but we've rather than
having been taken away from you
00:52:47.76\00:52:50.40
for a short time,
00:52:50.43\00:52:51.97
in presence, not in
heart endeavored more eagerly
00:52:52.00\00:52:54.10
to see your face
with great desire.
00:52:54.14\00:52:56.47
Therefore, we
wanted to come to you
00:52:56.50\00:52:57.84
even I Paul time and again,
00:52:57.87\00:53:01.08
but Satan hindered us.
00:53:01.11\00:53:02.61
We wanted to come.
00:53:02.64\00:53:03.98
But Satan
hindered us and you know
00:53:04.01\00:53:05.35
how Satan hindered them?
00:53:05.38\00:53:06.72
You know the reason
why Paul had to leave
00:53:06.75\00:53:08.08
and the reason why
he couldn't go back?
00:53:08.12\00:53:09.45
It's 'cause of the Jews.
00:53:09.48\00:53:10.82
The Jews stirred up
the people in Thessalonica
00:53:10.85\00:53:14.19
after Paul was
preaching there and it was,
00:53:14.22\00:53:15.89
there was such a
raucous that they,
00:53:15.92\00:53:17.76
they had to get Paul
out, and he couldn't go back.
00:53:17.79\00:53:19.86
But he's saying
Satan hindered him.
00:53:19.89\00:53:21.60
So we have this choice
that individuals are making
00:53:21.63\00:53:24.43
and when they make that choice,
they're making that choice
00:53:24.47\00:53:26.57
to side with the
ruler of this world.
00:53:26.60\00:53:28.34
They're making that choice
that is stopping God's purposes
00:53:28.37\00:53:32.01
and God's desire to reach them
00:53:32.04\00:53:34.08
and share with them the gospel
00:53:34.11\00:53:35.44
and they're making decisions
that is are in opposition.
00:53:35.48\00:53:38.11
That's very Isaiah 1, isn't it?
00:53:38.15\00:53:39.75
Here's all this
negative that's happening.
00:53:39.78\00:53:41.58
Here's all this
evil and God says,
00:53:41.62\00:53:43.18
okay, there's
really two great principles
00:53:43.22\00:53:45.25
here at work,
00:53:45.29\00:53:46.62
and we're either
aligning ourselves
00:53:46.65\00:53:47.99
with this principle,
00:53:48.02\00:53:49.36
and if we are then we're
furthering the kingdom of God
00:53:49.39\00:53:51.46
and His work on earth
00:53:51.49\00:53:52.83
or we're aligning
ourselves with this principle,
00:53:52.86\00:53:54.50
in which case we
are aligning ourselves
00:53:54.53\00:53:56.26
where Satan hindered us.
00:53:56.30\00:53:57.80
And Paul is an example of that
00:53:57.83\00:53:59.43
because he's persecuted
the church of God at one point,
00:53:59.47\00:54:02.00
and he turns around and
he is preaching the gospel.
00:54:02.04\00:54:04.74
His will was changed. Yes.
00:54:04.77\00:54:06.57
His will was changed
by the goodness of God.
00:54:06.61\00:54:09.58
And when he describes his will
being changed, listen to this.
00:54:09.61\00:54:11.55
I'm in Acts Chapter 26.
00:54:11.58\00:54:13.55
This is Jesus
speaking to Saul saying,
00:54:13.58\00:54:15.58
"Hey, this is what your life
is going to be going forward.
00:54:15.62\00:54:18.55
I will deliver you
from the Jewish people
00:54:18.59\00:54:19.92
as well as from the Gentiles
00:54:19.95\00:54:21.29
to whom I now send
you for this purpose,
00:54:21.32\00:54:22.96
to open their eyes
and order to turn them
00:54:22.99\00:54:24.96
from darkness to light
00:54:24.99\00:54:26.33
and from the
power of Satan to God
00:54:26.36\00:54:27.70
that they may
receive forgiveness of sins
00:54:27.73\00:54:29.76
and an inheritance among those
00:54:29.80\00:54:31.13
that are
sanctified by faith in me."
00:54:31.17\00:54:32.93
I got a plan
for your life, Paul.
00:54:32.97\00:54:34.77
I got a plan
for your life, Saul.
00:54:34.80\00:54:36.14
And the plan is to
turn for you to turn people
00:54:36.17\00:54:39.17
not just for you to be turned.
00:54:39.21\00:54:41.44
But for you to turn
people from darkness to light
00:54:41.48\00:54:43.48
from the power
of Satan to God, go.
00:54:43.51\00:54:44.85
I just really wanted to
read this powerful passage.
00:54:44.88\00:54:47.02
I don't think we
appreciate in general
00:54:47.05\00:54:50.65
how strongly God feels
about what we're saying
00:54:50.69\00:54:53.36
in regard to our involvement.
00:54:53.39\00:54:55.76
You mentioned, I
love what you said,
00:54:55.79\00:54:57.13
"Should I just seek
hyper religiosity," right?
00:54:57.16\00:55:00.30
There's this
passage in Amos Chapter 5,
00:55:00.33\00:55:03.60
where God says,
00:55:03.63\00:55:04.97
God uses language
that is just shocking.
00:55:05.00\00:55:07.97
He says, He's
speaking to the church,
00:55:08.00\00:55:10.14
He's speaking to believers
00:55:10.17\00:55:12.21
that are aware of
the condition of their,
00:55:12.24\00:55:13.84
he says, "I hate, I
despise your feast days."
00:55:13.88\00:55:17.75
Wow.
00:55:17.78\00:55:19.11
"I do not savor
your sacred assemblies,
00:55:19.15\00:55:22.12
your church services
00:55:22.15\00:55:24.19
and even though you
offer me burnt offerings
00:55:24.22\00:55:26.29
in your green offerings,
00:55:26.32\00:55:28.26
I will not accept them,
00:55:28.29\00:55:30.19
nor will I regard
your peace offerings.
00:55:30.23\00:55:32.59
Take away from me,
the noise of your songs,
00:55:32.63\00:55:37.30
for I will not hear the melody
from your string instruments."
00:55:37.33\00:55:40.30
And then verse 24 is the point.
00:55:40.34\00:55:42.30
"But let justice
run down like water..."
00:55:42.34\00:55:46.41
Come on now.
00:55:46.44\00:55:47.78
Start preaching.
00:55:47.81\00:55:49.14
"And righteousness
like a mighty streams."
00:55:49.18\00:55:52.25
That's what He is after.
00:55:52.28\00:55:53.62
He is saying,
look, stop your prayers.
00:55:53.65\00:55:56.08
Close your Bible.
Put the tambourines down.
00:55:56.12\00:55:57.72
Yeah, stop the
song, stop the prayer,
00:55:57.75\00:55:59.52
stop the plastic Christianity.
00:55:59.55\00:56:02.22
Pick up the shovels.
00:56:02.26\00:56:03.59
Go do something in this world,
00:56:03.63\00:56:05.19
alleviate the
pain and the suffering.
00:56:05.23\00:56:06.83
Get your hands dirty.
00:56:06.86\00:56:08.20
And that's in essence
00:56:08.23\00:56:09.56
how you would
worship Me and serve Me.
00:56:09.60\00:56:11.63
I have to say this,
when the chips are down,
00:56:11.67\00:56:14.27
when the whole thing's
done when Jesus returns,
00:56:14.30\00:56:16.77
He says, He uses this parable,
00:56:16.81\00:56:18.34
"Then the king will say
to those on his right hand,
00:56:18.37\00:56:20.14
'Come you blessed of My father,
00:56:20.18\00:56:21.51
inherit the
kingdom prepared for you
00:56:21.54\00:56:22.88
from the
foundation of the world,
00:56:22.91\00:56:24.25
for I was hungry..."
00:56:24.28\00:56:25.61
That's it, yeah.
00:56:25.65\00:56:26.98
And he didn't pray for me.
00:56:27.02\00:56:28.35
I was hungry, you gave me...
00:56:28.38\00:56:29.72
Now that doesn't
mean they didn't pray.
00:56:29.75\00:56:31.09
But after they
prayed, they gave food.
00:56:31.12\00:56:33.15
"And I was thirsty
and you gave me drink.
00:56:33.19\00:56:35.12
I was a stranger
and you took me in.
00:56:35.16\00:56:36.89
I was naked and you clothed me.
00:56:36.93\00:56:38.29
I was sick and you visited me.
00:56:38.33\00:56:39.66
I was in prison
and you came to me."
00:56:39.69\00:56:41.83
Clearly God here
00:56:41.86\00:56:43.20
is taking the
decisions of people seriously.
00:56:43.23\00:56:46.63
Yeah.
00:56:46.67\00:56:48.00
Let me close this out
with this one thought.
00:56:48.04\00:56:49.64
Do I have enough time?
00:56:49.67\00:56:51.01
Go for it, if you hurry.
00:56:51.04\00:56:52.37
This is a tweet
and it's powerful.
00:56:52.41\00:56:53.74
"This universe was
created by a God of love
00:56:53.78\00:56:55.91
to operate in ways of love.
00:56:55.94\00:56:58.51
So no lie can last forever
00:56:58.55\00:57:00.42
and all injustice
will cease to exist."
00:57:00.45\00:57:03.32
Oh, I love that.
00:57:03.35\00:57:04.69
Who is that? Did you write that?
00:57:04.72\00:57:06.05
No, that's Vince,
that's a friend of ours.
00:57:06.09\00:57:08.92
Oh, yeah. Vince.
00:57:08.96\00:57:10.29
And that, that, oh,
00:57:10.33\00:57:11.66
and that is a
great place to land
00:57:11.69\00:57:13.03
because we're
basically summarizing
00:57:13.06\00:57:14.76
and answer the question
00:57:14.80\00:57:16.13
if God is in
control, are we really free?
00:57:16.16\00:57:18.90
The fact is that
God exercises control
00:57:18.93\00:57:23.51
to the degree that
our intersecting free will
00:57:23.54\00:57:28.68
with His is made valid.
00:57:28.71\00:57:32.78
Seriously, He takes
into account what we do.
00:57:32.81\00:57:36.32
And collectively,
00:57:36.35\00:57:37.82
we bring evil to
an end in harmony,
00:57:37.85\00:57:42.66
working in concert with God
00:57:42.69\00:57:45.33
rather than it
cross purposes with them.
00:57:45.36\00:57:47.23
Amen. Amen.
00:57:47.26\00:57:50.23