Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000029A
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00:21 This conversation we're going to tackle
00:24 what is arguably the most difficult question 00:27 for a lot of people - maybe for everybody - 00:30 because you can't go through life - 00:34 not on planet earth - and not encounter suffering 00:37 or experience it yourself. 00:38 So the question - the hard question - that we're going to 00:42 process right now is simply this: 00:46 if God is love, why is there so much suffering in the world? 00:50 I mean, really, is there a more personal question? 00:56 People suffer... people go through things. 00:58 You get the diagnosis of cancer; 01:00 you have family members who are in a car accident 01:04 and somebody ends up paralyzed. 01:06 Everybody asks the why question. Um-hmm. 01:09 But what I find fascinating 01:11 is that there is a why question. 01:14 The fact that we ask why at all 01:17 indicates that we're not... we're not totally comfortable 01:22 with things going wrong. Um-hmm. 01:24 There's a baseline assumption that things ought to be going 01:27 right. So we live in a psychological dissonance, 01:32 so to speak, where we have some sense 01:36 that suffering ought not to be - um-hmm - 01:39 that death ought not to be - mmm - 01:41 and it's on that premise that we say: 01:43 "Well why does it happen at all? " 01:45 And then the thing gets more complex when you throw God 01:48 into the picture and somebody says: "Well God exists. 01:51 God is good; God loves you. " 01:53 And then boom! You're suffering. Um-hmm. 01:56 So if God is good, if God is love, 02:00 and if God is God... if God is powerful, 02:03 why doesn't He intervene to stop a, b, and c, 02:07 x, y, and z from taking place? 02:09 So that's the question. Several different layers 02:13 to the question but I love the way he's framed the question. 02:15 That's like 4-5 layers there. 02:16 But I think fundamentally one, I think, interesting 02:20 preliminary point is where you were alluding to there that 02:24 if... if God is out of the pic- ture, we're merely the products 02:28 of nature, we wouldn't be aware that there's something wrong. 02:32 We wouldn't be aware that starvation is wrong 02:35 or something's not right with that. 02:37 It's kind of like one philosopher said that 02:39 fish are not aware that they're wet. 02:43 But if... So if I fell into a pool I'd be immediately aware 02:47 that I'm wet 'cause that's not my natural environment. 02:50 I'm not in the natural... 02:51 something's wrong with my environment. 02:53 I'd be aware of that. So similarly 02:56 in defense of Jesus and of God 02:59 it's usually articulated because the world is so messed up 03:03 "God can't exist. " 03:06 Is there a sense... I'm just posing a question... 03:08 is there a sense that the fact that we're aware... 03:12 That we're wet? Yeah. 03:14 Um-hmm. That something's wrong with this room 03:16 is in itself indicative that intuitively we know 03:20 there has to be something beyond nature, i.e. 03:22 I think that's the question Ty began with. The supernatural. 03:25 Yeah. I want to say two things at the outset here. 03:28 The first thing I want to say is I love the fact that we're 03:30 framing this question as we are, and that is that 03:33 we seem incapable of being indifferent to or ambivalent 03:37 about suffering. We seem incapable of not 03:40 attaching some moral framework to the existence of suffering 03:44 whether personal, familial, or something we just 03:47 see on the television. We immediately have the response 03:50 of justice, fairness, equitability. 03:53 That's the first thing I want to say, and I think we're going to 03:56 have to wrestle with that. Um-hmm. 03:58 The second thing that I want to say is that this is the hardest 04:02 of the hard questions in my evaluation 04:04 for the committed believer, for the person that 04:07 professes faith in a good God. 04:08 Suffering is not a particularly difficult philosophical problem 04:13 for somebody who doesn't believe in God. 04:15 Right... it's just natural process. 04:17 Yeah, it is what it is. 04:18 The moral component only comes in if we try to affirm 04:21 two seemingly contradictory things. 04:24 God is good; God is love; God is powerful, 04:27 i.e. capable - um-hmm - and yet this is the world 04:30 that we live in. Now we have tension. 04:32 If we take that kind of a God out of the... 04:34 or maybe have a capricious God or an unkind God 04:36 or a malevolent God... then you have no problem with suffering. 04:39 Not a philosophical problem. 04:41 You still have the experiential problem. 04:43 But sitting here at this table 04:46 we are forced with a question 04:49 that is the hardest of the hard questions. Um-hmm. 04:52 And I think we need to say right up front 04:55 that I think at best what we can do here 04:58 is allow Scripture to point us in a direction - yeah - 05:02 a direction in which we can see that the truth 05:05 is just over that hill. 05:08 Actually more correctly it's on top of that hill. 05:10 It's on the cross on top of that hill. 05:12 But as far as the specifics of 05:15 "Why did that child get cancer and that child didn't? " 05:18 and "Why does that newly-wed couple get killed 05:21 in a car accident and that one didn't? " Yeah... yeah. 05:24 Nobody knows. We're not going to be able to answer that question. 05:26 I'd like to build on that because... 05:28 because I think we need to confess our ignorance 05:31 right up front. In confessing our ignorance 05:35 we're suggesting that every human being shares that same 05:40 level of ignorance regarding any given incident of suffering. 05:46 And that ignorance is grounded in the fact 05:48 that we live in a world that involves a complexity 05:53 of intersecting events 05:56 that come to bear upon any given situation. 05:59 Um-hmm. In other words, to know why that particular 06:03 car accident occurred you would have to know 06:06 all the causal chain of events 06:10 in each situation that led up to going back 06:14 who knows how far back. 06:17 You'd have to know why why why why why why 06:20 why why why way out. 06:22 Some philosophers have called that the "butterfly effect. " 06:25 Yeah. Chaos theory. Yeah. It's the idea 06:28 that everything is connected to everything else. 06:31 So we have to confess that 06:35 only on the level of infinite wisdom and omniscience 06:40 God alone knows precisely why that event happened. 06:45 Good point. People deal with this all the time. 06:47 They say: "OK, so this one family got in their car 06:50 and they prayed that God would keep them safe 06:53 as they drove to their destination. 06:55 This family got in their car across town and prayed the same 06:58 prayer. One gets in a car accident; the other didn't. 07:01 What gives? " Something happened there. 07:04 And that introduces a third difficult element 07:07 which is the issue of prayer 07:09 which we should definitely address at some point in our 07:12 conversation. But keep going, keep going. 07:14 OK. So my point is that reality is sufficiently complex 07:21 that the only way for us to make sense 07:25 out of why any suffering takes place 07:28 is to understand the principle, the macro principle, 07:33 the big-picture principles that would help us to say 07:36 "OK... we know why in the big sense 07:41 suffering takes place but we don't know all the details 07:45 that led up to that par- ticular incident of suffering. " 07:48 So we can bring to the table principles of love and freedom 07:52 for example. Um-hmm. And that answers the question 07:55 on the big picture level. 07:56 But then well wait a minute. Sometimes people will say: 08:00 "That child was innocent! 08:02 Why did that child suffer that particular situation? " 08:07 And we just need to come to the conclusion, the realization 08:10 that there are intersecting wills. 08:13 There's more than one will at play - that's right - 08:16 in this complex world in which we live. 08:18 Not just God's will. What about? There's your will, 08:20 my will. Millions, billions of wills. 08:22 What do you guys think about the question 08:24 "Would it even be helpful to know specifically 08:28 the answer to all of those specific details, situations? " 08:32 In other words, the big question is 08:37 in spite of pain and suffering and chaos 08:40 and the seemingly arbitrary nature of life 08:46 do I have sufficient grounds 08:50 to trust God? Yeah. I'd like to speak to that too, 08:54 'cause that's... Yeah, because to me it seems to me that 08:58 at that level that's the question. 09:00 Because if something specific happens to me 09:02 leaving this place here we're assuming 09:05 I'm driving home and I get into some car accident, 09:07 what have you, or some- thing happens to a loved one, 09:09 if I were to ask the question: "Why did this happen 09:11 to this individual today? " and somebody could literally 09:15 give me the actual answer - um-hmm - give me the causal 09:17 the causal ripple effect chain domino effect of all events 09:22 and then I'm going to sit there and say: "Ah, so glad you 09:27 you explained that to me. 09:28 Thank you so much. That makes me feel so... " 09:30 There wouldn't be satisfaction. No! No! 09:32 What kind of satisfaction would I get from you explaining - 09:36 yeah- the causal, cumulative effect of the last thousand 09:39 events that took place that led to that one? 09:41 You see what I'm saying? Yeah. 09:42 So you're still experiencing that suffering. 09:45 It still hurts; you still hate it. 09:47 You still wish it didn't happen. 09:48 I've lost somebody still. They won't be in tomorrow morning. 09:51 So my point is that it's even questionable if that... 09:54 if that would even be helpful 09:56 'cause we're basically confessing there's no way for us 09:59 to know. I'm simply going a step further. 10:02 Even if we did know... Even if we DID know 10:04 it wouldn't be particularly helpful I don't think. 10:07 I think there's two ways to look at that. 10:09 In 2003 I was diagnosed with cancer... thyroid cancer. 10:14 And one of the things that really helped me to deal with 10:17 thyroid cancer... So I'm a Christian, 10:20 I'm following the Bible, I'm specifically really into 10:24 eating healthfully, living healthfully, getting exercise... 10:27 that kind of stuff. My mom, who found out about this 10:30 her first response was: "OK, so you're a vegetarian 10:32 and you are a healthy person. You don't smoke; 10:34 you don't drink. " She does. 10:36 So the inference was there: "You've got cancer 10:39 and I don't. She was diagnosed with nothing. Right. 10:41 "You've got cancer and I don't. " 10:43 So, you know, it was hard, that was difficult. 10:46 And one of the things that help- ed me - thanks, Mom, for that - 10:49 but she was more sympathetic towards me. 10:52 Right. She was like: "I can't believe this. " 10:54 That was really bothering me; she was really troubled by it. 10:57 And so one of the things that really helped me 10:59 was to know that thyroid cancer is primarily 11:03 a result of being exposed to radiation 11:08 and not a result of lifestyle. Yeah. 11:11 So it was really helpful for me to know that. 11:13 So there are times when it is good for us to know 11:15 but let me get to your point you're making 11:18 I think is really true. So then I'm in this situation 11:21 where as a person who's known by different people 11:25 the word gets out, people are praying for me, whatever, 11:27 but then I start receiving e- mails and I start receiving 11:30 input from people - oh, yeah - about my situation. 11:33 And suggestions of what to do? 11:35 And thousands of reasons why it happened. Umm. 11:37 Because you didn't do this and because you didn't do that. 11:39 Because of this idea a curse causeless does not come 11:43 which I believe is the macro. The macro is: yeah, 11:45 this world... we're in a curse and there's a cause for this. 11:48 Evil, free will, etc. 11:50 But in my situation I don't want to know 11:55 who specifically exposed me to that radiation. 11:58 Where it happened. 12:00 I don't want to be having to deal with the bitter thoughts 12:03 towards your dentist? toward my dentist or toward 12:08 whichever security that you had to go through. 12:10 whichever security, yeah. Or towards a nuclear 12:13 science that we're using freely or whatever it is. 12:16 I don't want it because then I've gotta deal with 12:19 "Ah... man! " You see what I'm saying? So like you said 12:23 there are certain things that aren't helpful to us. 12:25 We don't have the capacity to even deal with that answer 12:28 even if it were accessible. OR it's more for us to process. 12:31 In other words now I have to process not only this factor 12:33 but also I've gotta deal with people. 12:35 And I had to deal with people who were saying: "You know, 12:37 the reason why this happened to you is because 12:39 you didn't do this or you did do this. " 12:41 And I've now got to process that and deal with those people. 12:43 And so for me... yeah, I agree totally. 12:46 Yeah, sometimes it's not helpful. 12:47 Instead of having the full reason... yeah. 12:51 You were saying some- thing about multiple wills... 12:55 yeah... taking place. I think that's a powerful thing. 12:57 I wonder if we could maybe look at some Biblical? 13:02 Well what are the macro things that he's talking about? 13:04 Like you said them there: love and freedom. 13:07 Love is the basis... it's the foundation. 13:10 God is love, and love in order to be genuine 13:14 love requires freedom. Um-hmm. 13:17 I can't force you to love me. I can't take out a gun and say: 13:20 "David, I'm going to pull this trigger unless you 13:24 love me. " Um-hmm. Because that's not love. 13:27 Just in that moment love has been completely eliminated 13:33 from the possibility. You can't do it. 13:34 I could be afraid of you. Yes. 13:36 I could respect you maybe. 13:38 But, yeah... or you could be, you know, 13:41 anyway. I could be in awe of your power to kill me. 13:47 I'm trying to think what would the emotions be. 13:49 How could I respond to that? Yeah. 13:51 It would be a bunch of bad emotions. 13:54 Bad, negative, but not love. 13:55 There's no love there. It doesn't develop love, 13:57 it doesn't create love. Yeah, I could love you... 14:00 I could love you for a hundred reasons 14:03 but I wouldn't love you as a result of that kind of request. 14:07 And that's what you're saying. And that kind of request could 14:08 actually diminish the other reasons why you love me. 14:11 Yeah, I normally would under normal circumstances. 14:12 You're asking what are the macro. 14:14 The macro in regards to this question is 14:16 the big picture of Scripture: we live in a fallen broken world. 14:20 But we're going back to why... how that happened. 14:24 How could a God of love create a world 14:28 that is fallen and broken and full of sin and pain and evil? 14:30 Well, the question that has been asked of me 14:32 I know it's been asked of Ty because we've had this 14:34 conversation and probably with you as well. 14:35 And I've heard it debated philosophically 14:37 in books and in videos that I've seen 14:40 and even in live events is: "OK, if God possesses 14:45 omnipotence, if He has the resources of all power 14:48 at His disposal, then why didn't He just configure 14:51 the world so that these things don't happen? " 14:55 They're not possible. Yeah! They're not possible. 14:58 Not only that they are not like- ly but they are not possible. 15:00 Well, let's rationally think it through. 15:03 What would the options be? OK. 15:06 Here we've got our kind of world - 15:08 our existing world - with its up side and down side 15:12 potential. Um-hmm. Freedom comes with the risk of an up side 15:17 and down side. That's the world we live in. Um-hmm. 15:19 What would the options be to that? 15:23 I can't think of a lot of options 15:24 except for no world at all. 15:26 God could have just said: 15:27 "I'm not going to create anything at all. " Um-hmm. 15:29 Number two would be a world of puppets. 15:32 Micro managed? Yeah. 15:34 Any time we go in a direction that is not in harmony with 15:38 that principle of love, any time we go away from that: 15:40 "Stop! No! Back here... this is what you do. " 15:46 There's not multiple wills. No, there's one will. 15:49 There's one will. Somebody's pulling strings. 15:51 Everything that happens has to conform to God's overall will. 15:55 And I can eliminate our will. 15:56 And I can only think of one other option. 15:58 Maybe you guys can think of others. 15:59 No world at all, a puppet world, or a slave world. 16:02 Puppet and slave is the same thing. Well, no... 16:04 no they're not... they're not because the puppet world is a 16:08 world of material things that don't possess free will. 16:14 OK. They're mechanical devices. 16:16 A slave is a free-will creature that's dominated. OK. 16:20 You see what I'm saying? 16:21 I think you're right but I think at least the way that 16:24 I'm seeing it that slave world would eventually just become 16:27 the puppet world. You would just be so 16:30 immune to even trying to do something that was 16:32 outside of the parameters of the Sovereign will 16:34 but it's a point well taken. 16:36 Well, ask yourself the question, David. 16:39 You're getting married; you're wife's name is Violeta. 16:42 We have choices before us. 16:43 "What kind of home are we going to have? " 16:45 That's right. Are we going to have a home 16:46 in which we give birth to children 16:48 and those children are going to live 16:50 in what kind of environment? What kind of environment 16:52 will we create for our children? 16:54 Will we micromanage every decision they make? 16:56 Or will we give them freedom? 16:58 What kind of home do you want? Um-hmm. 17:00 And you're right. One way that we can ensure 17:03 or could have ensured that we would have no rebellious 17:06 teenagers, that we would have no drug addict sons or whatever - 17:09 um-hmm - would be to have had no children. 17:11 Yeah. We could have solved those problems 17:14 right out front by not having that connection. 17:17 You're assuming that it's worth the risk. 17:20 In other words... So by bringing children into the world 17:24 you said: "It's worth the risk. " 17:27 The potential for love actuated from a free will - 17:30 yeah - is worth the risk 17:34 of the potential that you described. 17:36 So here's how... we frame this question negatively 17:39 in much of our conversation reflective of the difficult, 17:43 dark world of trial that we live in. 17:46 This is an appropriate way to frame the question 17:48 "If God is so good, why is there so much suffering? " 17:51 But we could easily ask another question. 17:54 It's not the question that begs to be asked. 17:57 But we could ask the question: "Why is the world so awesome? " 18:00 Yeah, why is there any good at all? 18:02 Yeah. What about the beauty of a symphony or a sunset 18:04 or a beautiful child. In other words, people don't 18:07 tend to ask themselves? "Why do I have such a great life? " 18:10 "Why does this mango taste so amazing? " 18:13 "Why am I surrounded by people that love me 18:15 and I love them? " Why do bad things happen 18:17 to good people or why do good things happen to bad people? 18:19 Exactly! So we're framing the question 18:21 which is appropriate - yeah - from the suffering aspect. 18:24 And the truth of the matter is Ty said the highs and the lows. 18:26 These are two sides of the same coin. 18:29 In other words, the risk involved in having a world 18:32 with mangoes and happiness and you just go... 18:35 that list is the flip side of - yeah - pain, 18:41 suffering, rape, genocide, 18:44 abuse, oppression, injustice. 18:48 It's this and this. 18:49 I think we could summarize this point by simply saying - 18:52 confessing - that our world is not the best possible world 18:57 but it is the best possible world for getting us 19:02 to the best possible world. Does that make sense? 19:04 Makes perfect sense to me. 19:06 In other words, the ultimate thing that we know 19:08 could be and that we long for 19:11 is only accessible through a state of affairs 19:17 in which it could go bad. 19:18 If it can't go bad at all, then it can't genuinely be good. 19:23 Um-hmm. There would be no goodness if there is no 19:25 potential for badness. Yeah, that's great. 19:28 I love that. Going back to our macro values. 19:32 Freedom. I think when we return after the break 19:34 we have to say if we were going to create our most perfect world 19:38 we would say that freedom would be a preeminent value 19:41 in that world. Yeah. 19:43 It would have to be. So then we have to have a situation 19:45 where people learn how to use their freedom 19:48 in responsible, loving, other-centered ways. 19:52 And we are in the midst, according to Scripture, 19:55 that is the midst of the experiment in which we are in 19:59 right now. Yeah. I mean, nobody 20:01 given a choice would choose to live for example 20:05 in North Korea over living say in France. 20:09 You know that there's a big down side 20:12 to a society in which people can do whatever they want, 20:16 but you're not going to choose 20:18 the situation where you can't do whatever you want. 20:21 You're going to choose the free society over the controlled 20:25 society. You're just going to because you're willing to take 20:28 those risks because you know that there's a greater 20:31 potential for beauty and goodness and happiness 20:34 right there in that situation. 20:36 So yeah, let's pursue this further after the break. 20:46 Hi, I'm Ty Gibson. Welcome to digma.com 20:49 I am so excited about this website 20:52 because you're about to discover a powerful new way 20:55 to share life-transforming messages 20:57 and videos with your family, friends, and anybody else 21:00 on the planet who has access to a computer. 21:04 Digma is a Greek word. It basically means 21:07 to show or to reveal something by means of a pattern or an 21:11 example of some kind. 21:12 It's the second half of the word paradigma 21:16 from which we get the English word paradigm 21:18 as in paradigm shift. 21:20 And so what you're going to find at digma.com 21:23 is a growing library of short videos and transcripts 21:26 dealing with paradigms and fundamental questions. 21:30 What's the meaning of life? 21:32 What is our origin and destiny as human beings? 21:36 What happens when we die? 21:38 Does God exist? Or are we alone in this vast universe? 21:43 Why is there so much evil and suffering in our world? 21:47 An estimated 70% of Americans 21:50 have a computer right in their home and stay in touch 21:53 with family and friends by e-mail. 21:56 And more than 400 million people are active on Facebook 22:01 and 5 million new users are signing up every week. 22:05 We are literally in the midst of a communications revolution 22:10 of massive proportions. 22:12 This is granting the gospel direct and easy access 22:17 to millions upon millions of homes and hearts. 22:21 And that's what digma.com is all about. 22:25 It's a tool for leading our family and friends 22:28 on an exciting paradigm shift 22:31 by revealing the truth of God's creative power 22:34 and His incredibly beautiful character 22:37 in contrast to our world's popular misconceptions 22:42 about who God is. 23:02 So we started the conversation talking about 23:04 these macro values such as love and freedom 23:08 and I agree. Most... every- body's going to agree with that. 23:13 You ended with the France vs. North Korea illustration. 23:16 What I'd like to do at this point... 23:18 tell me if you guys are feeling this... 23:19 is let's go and sort of look at some of these 23:22 principles that we've been laying down 23:24 and let's find them in Scripture. 23:25 The idea that there's more than one will 23:27 and the idea that freedom is the highest value. 23:30 Love is a high value. Um-hmm. 23:31 What are the texts of Scripture that we can say 23:35 "You see, it's right here! Here's a text that says 23:37 that this is the case. " 23:39 There are two I think of that we could begin 23:41 the conversation on. 23:42 Almost everybody is aware of the Lord's Prayer. 23:45 Um-hmm. "Our Father, which art in heaven. 23:48 Hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come... " 23:49 There I'm doing it in King James English. 23:52 But this is very interesting. 23:55 Keeping James happy! 23:57 How does that prayer end? 24:00 This is very interesting language. You have here: 24:03 "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. " 24:06 Forgiveness presupposes that something was done 24:11 that ought not to have been done. Um-hmm. 24:13 So right there is the free will concept. 24:15 "Forgive us as we forgive. " 24:18 You're presupposing freedom and something went bad. 24:21 OK, number two: "Do not lead us into temptation 24:24 but deliver us from evil. " 24:26 Well that presupposes that encountering temptation 24:30 I can do the bad thing or not do the bad thing. 24:33 Right? Temptation you can use your will in the wrong way. 24:37 I can say yes or no to that temptation. 24:38 "So don't lead me there, Lord. 24:40 I don't want to go that direction. " 24:42 "And deliver us from evil. " That's a prayer that's saying: 24:46 "God, could You use whatever leverage You have 24:49 to move me in the right direction 24:51 so that I don't make bad free choices. " 24:53 But then here's the "biggie: " 24:55 "For Yours is the kingdom and the power 24:57 forever and ever amen. " No, I missed something. Oh! 25:00 Oh here it is! "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. 25:03 Thy kingdom come; Thy will be done 25:05 on earth as it is in heaven. " 25:07 So there's the word we're looking at: will. 25:09 Your will. "Your will be done 25:11 on earth as it is in heaven. " 25:13 Isn't that clear that there are opposing wills? Um-hmm. 25:17 There is God's will on the one hand 25:19 which apparently, according to this scripture, is being done 25:22 perfectly in the heavenly realm. 25:25 But the prayer indicates that God's will is not being 25:27 perfectly done - um-hmm - on earth. 25:30 And so we're saying: "God, let's make 25:33 the good stuff happen that is Your will. " 25:37 That tells us a lot. 25:38 That tells us that God is not the source and the origin 25:43 of the bad stuff. That that's not what's going on in His will. 25:47 The bad stuff has its origin in opposing wills. 25:50 I love the way that's written and the way you went through 25:52 that. You didn't quite follow that order, but going back 25:55 you did, and that was this: "Thy will be done on earth 25:57 as it is in heaven. " Forgive; deliverance from evil; 26:02 deliverance from temptation. I mean, that's powerful 26:04 because it's not just saying that there two different wills 26:07 being done, but it's saying that the will that is being 26:10 carried out on earth that's not being carried out in heaven 26:13 involves evil and temptation. 26:15 It involves a need for forgiveness. 26:17 And those are the things that have come to this earth 26:21 that were never intended to be here 26:23 and that we want to be restored back to the heavenly picture, 26:27 the heavenly pattern, the way we were to be. 26:30 And that's even demonstrated in the... Isn't the fact that 26:32 Jesus died on the cross the ultimate statement 26:35 that God's will is not always carried out on earth? 26:38 The fact that Jesus had to die on the cross... 26:41 To say that He had to die on the cross 26:44 and it uses different language... in order to redeem 26:47 wills that were exercised the wrong way. 26:51 Yeah... yeah. Sin... what is sin? 26:53 Right? So you point to the cross 26:56 and basically you're saying that the best and ultimate answer 26:59 to the question of: "If God is love, why is there 27:01 suffering? " is that God entered into solidarity with our pain. 27:05 Yeah. He didn't remain aloof from it. 27:08 He jumped into the middle of it 27:09 and He has become a partaker of our pain 27:15 and suffering rather than remaining apart from it. 27:18 Yeah. That's remarkable! 27:20 And also the cross showed that even though... 27:22 even though local individual things are done 27:25 where God's will is thwarted 27:27 the cross also shows that in the grand scheme of things 27:29 God's going to take those and... He takes curses 27:32 and turns them into blessings. 'Cause the cross which becomes 27:34 the symbol of God's will being thwarted 27:37 because of the need to die for sin 27:39 also becomes the mechanism through which 27:42 God conquers sin and allows righteousness to triumph. Yes. 27:46 Yeah, so you have the two sides of it. 27:49 This brings me back to some- thing though real quick here. 27:51 You mentioned earlier that would we even want 27:55 a detailed explanation of the causal chain 27:59 for any particular episode of suffering. 28:03 But now think of this: somebody is suffering horribly. 28:06 They're lying in a hospital bed. 28:08 What is going to be the greater healing and solace for them? 28:13 To sit by the bedside and to give an explanation 28:19 for why precisely or to sit by their bedside 28:22 and enter into solidarity and sympathy with their suffering? 28:26 To cry with them; to feel what they're feeling 28:29 and for them to look back into an understanding face? 28:31 Is it that understanding face that's going to be better 28:34 for them? Or you bust into the hospital room 28:38 with a chalkboard and you just start mapping out what happened 28:40 and why it happened? Make a diagram... 28:43 I want to share something with you that I think is really 28:45 powerful in relation to this and it's a scripture that's found... 28:48 I'm sure we're familiar with it. It's found in Zechariah 28:51 chapter 6. And basically 28:56 it's explaining in the context of sin and suffering 29:01 that God and Christ had this council of peace. 29:05 The prophecy is a prophecy of 29:08 God and Christ coming together. 29:11 I'm just going to read it to you right here. 29:13 And the Lord of Hosts is basically talking about 29:20 the branch, which is Christ. 29:23 And it says that He will "build the temple of the Lord. " 29:26 And then it says: "Even He shall build the temple of the Lord 29:29 and He will bear the glory 29:31 and He shall sit and rule upon His throne. 29:33 And He shall be a Priest upon His throne, 29:35 and the council of peace shall be between them both. " 29:38 And that's Zechariah chapter 6 verse 12. 29:40 And it's really interesting because when you look up that 29:42 council of peace and you read about it... 29:45 I'm just going to just share with you a statement. 29:48 This one is in the Desire of Ages on the life of Christ. 29:51 But it basically says this council of peace 29:53 was God the Father and God the Son coming together 29:56 before the creation of mankind - 29:59 before the foundation of the world - 30:01 and basically saying that if they choose to sin... 30:05 "We created them in Our image in love, and that allows for 30:09 freedom of choice and involves risk. 30:11 And if they choose... if the devil actually takes them, 30:14 if Lucifer actually takes them as the devil in this direction, 30:17 they choose to go in this direc- tion, we are making a covenant 30:20 in a council of peace right now. 30:22 And so before this whole thing, before we go forth in this 30:25 creation we have a Plan B 30:28 and Jesus, You are going to become... " 30:31 The Son of God is going to become Jesus Christ. 30:33 He's going to become the One who takes away sin, 30:35 the Anointed One who comes down to this planet. 30:38 And He's going to be the One that reveals a full revelation 30:41 or manifestation of what God is really like 30:43 and win the hearts back. 30:45 And what's really powerful about this is this council. 30:49 Job went through this terrible experience in his life. 30:52 I can really relate to that when I was talking about my cancer 30:55 earlier and Job goes through this whole thing 30:57 where you were talking about he loses his family, 31:00 he loses his health, he loses his wealth, his wife. 31:03 Everyone... all his friends turn against him. 31:05 And even his friends... they come and they sit. 31:07 For a week they sympathize and then they start talking, 31:09 start trying to explain all this stuff. 31:11 "Hey Job, you know the reason why your son 31:13 and the reason why you, x, y, and z... " 31:17 And finally Job says to them, he says: "You guys 31:19 just need to be quiet. " They're miserable comforters. 31:22 "You're worthless physicians. " 31:24 And THEN... and then God shows up. 31:27 Because Job gets really intense about his questions 31:30 and God shows up. And what's interesting is 31:33 while we as human beings 31:36 aren't I don't think capable of going through explanations 31:40 God is. God actually steps into our situation 31:45 like you said, but He also... 31:46 He gives Job this picture of Himself. 31:50 And the first thing He asks Job is He says... 31:52 He says: "Job, who is this 31:55 who darkens council without knowledge? " 31:59 Now that word council is the very same word that's used 32:01 in Zechariah. He's talking about this council of peace. Um-hmm. 32:04 He says: "You've darkened this council of peace. 32:07 You've misunderstood Me just a little bit here. 32:09 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world? 32:13 Tell Me if you have understanding. " 32:15 Hmm. And then He goes through the incredible revelation 32:19 of how God is with every creature that suffers. 32:21 He knows the horse, He knows the eagle. 32:23 He knows everything that's happening on planet earth. 32:25 He is there. And Job gets this picture 32:28 and he realizes: "Wow! God has always been with me 32:31 through this whole event. I've been on His heart. 32:34 And even before the foundation of the world 32:37 He had this council of peace. " Yeah. 32:39 "I misunderstood this... I'm confused. " 32:41 The word darkened means confused. 32:42 "I'm confused about this. " 32:44 And when you look at Babylon - that whole process - 32:46 it's confusion. But I think the world today 32:50 we are talking about this as being a Bible question. 32:53 The world today is looking for an answer to THIS question. 32:55 Um-hmm. And the gospel of Christ answers this question. 32:58 God doesn't explain to us all of the micro details 33:02 but He says: "I'm with you in your suffering. " 33:04 "Job, I'm with you in your suffering. 33:06 In the beginning I knew about this 33:07 and I made a plan to be with you. " 33:08 And He's also at the bedside of those who are suffering. 33:10 God understands us. Um-hmm. 33:12 He understands what we're going through. 33:14 I just thought as you were saying that, 33:16 explaining that, James, of this scripture in Psalm 56 33:19 that I love where David has been going through a lot of suffering 33:23 and he's grappling with it and he doesn't understand why. 33:26 It's just freaking him out and he can't make sense of it. 33:30 And then it dawns on him in chapter 56 of Psalms 33:33 and verse 8 he says to God: "You have numbered 33:38 all my wanderings and you put my tears in Your bottle. 33:42 Are they not all in Your book? " Um-hmm. 33:46 So isn't that amazing? 33:48 That's a solidarity thing. Yeah. 33:50 Suddenly he realizes - David realizes - 33:53 "Wait a minute... " He'd been ranting and raving 33:56 about "God where are You? " 33:57 And "How come this is happening? and why is that happening? " 34:00 And then it's as it were that God is at the bedside 34:03 of this suffering man and David realizes: 34:07 "Wait a minute! You have actually been taking notes 34:12 of all my sorrows" and very poetically he says: 34:16 "You've collected all my tears in Your bottle. " 34:19 Um-hmm. What is that about? 34:21 That's a beautiful poetic way of saying 34:25 that "Every single thing, God, that touches me 34:29 and every tear that I've shed through my suffering 34:32 You have actually taken note of every tear 34:35 and You are with me in my suffering. " 34:38 That's one of the most beautiful texts in scripture 34:41 for me that just shows that God... 34:43 You brought out, Jeffrey, earlier trust. 34:46 We can't comprehend all the causal chain 34:49 but what about trust. 34:50 And sometimes I think of a statement that I heard somewhere 34:52 that when we can't trace God's hand we can trust His heart. 34:58 Um-hmm. In other words, we don't know why, why, why, why, why 35:01 but we do know what is going on in God's essential character. 35:06 God is good. God is LOVE so we know for sure 35:10 something that's NOT true and that is that 35:12 it's not true that God has orchestrated - 35:16 hmm - my pain and suffering because God lacks essential 35:20 integrity. God HAS essential integrity. 35:24 God IS love. That's a solid, immoveable 35:28 reality, and you have to trust that even when you can't trace 35:32 the causal chain. That's the solidarity thing. 35:34 Jesus articulated that in different ways, right? 35:37 He mentioned the lilies of the field - um-hmm - 35:40 and how the Father takes note of all that. 35:42 He says: "The very hairs of your head are all numbered. " 35:44 There's a lot of different ways that what you just read 35:47 in Psalms is I think reaffirmed in the New Testament. 35:50 Jesus is basically saying - um-hmm - 35:53 "I know what you're going through. " 35:54 And going back to Calvary - the main lesson of Calvary 35:58 is the fact that Christ identifies - um-hmm - 36:01 with our suffering. So... 36:03 Well, in a similar conversation we had talked about 36:06 each of our conversions and what was the thing in Scripture 36:09 that sort of gave Scripture at least initial credibility 36:12 in your own experience. And at least in our three cases 36:15 not so much in Jeffrey's so that came later 36:17 it had to do with seeing a picture of God 36:19 that was compelling. You know, love vs. power 36:23 and the God of patience and longsuffering. 36:26 And in my case it was... boiled down to Luke 19 36:28 where Jesus wept over the city. 36:31 And I tweeted oh, probably a month ago now 36:34 that if all we had in Scripture were these two verses... 36:38 New Testament... If all we had was... 36:40 Two words? No... these two texts. Oh. 36:43 Text number one: "In the beginning was the Word. " 36:46 These three texts. Jesus is the Word. 36:48 So "In the beginning was the Word... " number one. 36:50 Number two: "The Word became flesh. " Um-hmm. 36:52 And then number three: "Jesus wept. " 36:56 If all we knew was that there was a God, that He became flesh, 36:59 and He cried, um-hmm, we would know enough 37:03 to trust Him. Wow! Because I know what it is to cry. 37:06 I know what it is to be lonely, to be hurt, 37:09 to be upset, to be frustrated, to be in pain, to suffer. 37:13 And if there's a God in the uni, if God possesses all power, 37:18 all resources of intellect, strength... all of that, 37:22 and yet there's still a vulnerability? 37:26 God is vulnerable? Well, He couldn't be vulnerable 37:29 from any external thing because He possesses all power. 37:32 Nothing. He must be internally vulnerable. 37:36 He must be the kind of person who would make Himself 37:41 subject to forces that would otherwise have no right 37:43 to approach Him. He becomes flesh. 37:48 He goes to the tomb of Lazarus and weeps. 37:51 He goes to the city... the hill overlooking Jerusalem. 37:55 Well He didn't have to do that. No. 37:56 He's God, man. He can be where He wants. 37:58 He can be doing what He wants. So if all we knew 38:02 going back to the looking in the eyes vs. the explanation 38:05 is that God cries. Yeah. 38:09 He's voluntarily vulnerable. That's right. 38:12 Unlike us. We tend to get ourselves into trouble 38:15 but often the vicissitudes of life just smite us 38:18 and we're like: "Oh, what happened? " Yeah. 38:20 And we would choose to be out of that circumstance. 38:23 You know, you're diagnosed with cancer. If there could be 38:25 the button in front of you to be cancer free or to have... 38:27 you'd push the "I want to be out of this circumstance. " 38:31 But God says: "Um, I'll push the get in 38:35 to pain, vulnerability, weeping button. " Wow! 38:39 I recently read another author worded it 38:43 "We need a Savior that can weep. " 38:45 Um-hmm. "We needed a Savior that knew how to weep. " 38:48 When I wrote my first book and it was coming down to the time. 38:51 I'd already written much of the book 38:54 and we were really struggling with the title. 38:55 And it's with some of these very same issues. 38:58 You know, the existence of suffering, 39:00 the existence of God, and God as an omniscient being, 39:02 omnipotent being. And we were wrestling. 39:05 We had several different titles that neither myself nor the 39:07 publisher were ever really happy. 39:09 And then just in a moment when we were on a phone conference 39:12 this title: God In Pain... I love that title! 39:16 came to me. That's the God that we serve. 39:20 And when I asked a good friend of ours, Clifford Goldstein, 39:22 to write the foreword he said: "Why did you write the book? 39:25 All you needed to write was the title. " 39:27 The title alone encapsulates the essence 39:31 of the answer. We're asking the question 39:33 "If God is so good, why is there so much suffering? " 39:36 But whose capacity for suffering is greater: 39:39 the finite creature or the infinite Creator? 39:42 Um-hmm... um-hmm. If we are suffering 39:45 and God has the ability to give that causal chain, 39:48 His ability to be at every funeral, 39:51 to be at every rape, to be present. 39:53 Now, of course, that introduces the question: 39:56 "Well why doesn't God just stop it? Why doesn't He intervene? " 39:59 Or even worse, why does He sometimes 40:01 and sometimes doesn't intervene? 40:04 Apparently arbitrarily. You have to insert the word 40:08 apparently because, and I think we have to come back to this 40:12 either in this conversation or at some subsequent conversation 40:15 we have to ask the question: "Why doesn't God whatever? " 40:20 Fill in the blank. Yeah. Or "Why didn't God? " 40:22 Fill in the blank. When that little cancer cell 40:25 came into James' thyroid there and began to multiply 40:28 why didn't God? You would have been none the wiser. 40:30 Why didn't He just come in and just eviscerate that cancer cell 40:33 and all is good. Yeah. I mean, that's a real question. 40:36 It's a very real question. 40:38 We have to take a break although these are... 40:42 I don't know if you've noticed but just in this conversation 40:45 there's almost a solemn tone - heaviness - 40:49 that's come over us because we realize that 40:52 we're dealing with something that is in fact very difficult. 40:57 There are people probably who are sitting in on this 41:00 conversation right now via the television 41:03 and I can imagine there are tears coming to some people's 41:07 eyes because "If you only knew" somebody could say to us. 41:10 "If you ONLY knew what happened to me. " Yes. 41:14 We should focus also on some of the things we DO know. 41:18 For me at least that's why it's become so solemn 41:21 'cause of some of those things we DO know. 41:23 Yeah we do. So let's just keep on 41:26 talking about it when we come back after the break. 41:35 Digma videos are short, engaging messages 41:38 designed for opening up discussion with individuals 41:41 and groups regarding the character of God 41:43 as well as for your own personal spiritual growth. 41:46 For your free DVD sample collection of Digma videos 41:49 call 877.585.1111 41:53 or write to: 42:00 Once again, for your free sample collection of Digma videos: 42:16 Simply ask for Digma DVD 1. 42:24 So we're tackling pretty much the biggest question 42:28 imaginable, and I'm of the opinion 42:31 that this is... can I say it this way? 42:34 it's the most naturally occurring theological question. 42:38 Um-hmm. It doesn't matter if you were raised in a Christian home 42:41 or a Buddhist home or a Muslim home 42:45 or an atheist home, everybody encounters suffering 42:48 and everybody at some point in their life 42:51 is going to ask the why question. 42:53 Even if you somehow get through the world unscathed 42:59 you're eventually going to grow old and be on a death bed. 43:02 And everybody at some point is faced with the reality 43:05 of pain and suffering. 43:07 And at that point human beings naturally ask the question 43:11 "Why is this happening? " And the bigger question is: 43:14 "Why is the world like this at all? " Um-hmm. 43:16 "Why is the world like this at all? " 43:19 Now in our discussion we've confessed 43:23 that we're ignorant and we think everybody's ignorant 43:26 regarding the details of every single episode 43:31 of suffering and why that happened or that happened 43:33 or that happened. But we do believe very strongly 43:36 that there are some big principles 43:40 that very clearly give us guidance to know 43:43 why bad things happen on the more big-picture level. 43:49 God created a particular kind of world. 43:52 God out of His character of love 43:56 created a world in which created beings 44:00 would have the potential to love like God loves. Um-hmm. 44:02 Having created that kind of world 44:04 there had to be something in place as the basic mechanism 44:09 of human thought and behavior, and that's freedom. Um-hmm. 44:13 That freedom which makes love possible 44:16 also makes evil possible, suffering possible. 44:20 Right. There's that big risk. 44:22 But with those principles I think we can safely say 44:27 that it's possible for God to be exonerated 44:31 in our basic theological picture. 44:34 We don't have to hate God. 44:35 In fact, as soon as you believe in the love/freedom risk 44:39 equation you don't have to hate anybody. 44:42 You can actually be in a frame of mind 44:47 where at least you understand - um-hmm - that God 44:51 chose the best possible situation 44:55 for creating the best possible world. 44:58 Now we live in that world. 44:59 I like the way that it's sometimes said that this world 45:02 is not the best possible world but it is the way 45:05 to the best possible world. Yeah, that's right. 45:07 If you think of it, if you could have an empty canvas 45:10 and come up with the best dynamics, 45:12 wouldn't you do the very thing that God did? 45:17 Yeah. People would do nothing different. 45:20 To use the illustration that you gave earlier when we were saying 45:23 that the way to make sure your teenage children never become 45:25 something other than you'd hoped or your grown children 45:28 is to never have them. 45:30 And you said... your illustration was basically: 45:33 "but the risk was worth it. " Right. 45:35 What about this? How do you feel about this? 45:38 We have the tragedy of suicide. 45:40 But isn't the fact... Doesn't the fact that we refrain 45:44 from suicide on a daily basis 45:46 in and of itself demonstrate that we think it's worth 45:50 the risk waking up tomorrow morning? Yeah. 45:52 We know good and well there could be a terrible thing 45:55 in store for us tomorrow. The minute I walk out my front door, 45:58 get into my car, and go into the world - 46:00 right - I'm entering into a million different 46:05 varieties of risk. Um-hmm. But the fact that I do not 46:09 commit suicide means it's worth the risk of 46:12 staying alive - yeah - and potentially experiencing 46:17 you know the benefits of freedom and love and... 46:21 Or continually confessing that the risk is worth it 46:24 by getting married, by having children. 46:26 By even entering into a friendship with anybody 46:29 and not just locking ourselves away 46:31 in a room and never coming out and having pizzas delivered 46:33 under the door. We're continually confessing 46:37 that the up side is worth the risk of the down side. 46:41 I mean, just all the time. 46:44 C. S. Lewis went through this process of reasoning 46:46 where he says to the person who says 46:51 "Why did God create me in the first place 46:55 if I'm going to experience suffering? 46:57 It's not worth it" Lewis responds "Not worth it to who? " 47:03 The idea is that God above and beyond 47:07 our processing thought it was worth it 47:11 to perhaps have the possibility 47:15 where you could live forever in a state of eternal bliss. 47:19 Um-hmm. He thought the risk was worth it. 47:21 And who are we to argue back 47:23 to the One who made things to operate? 47:26 And the One who is the source from which all of our wisdom 47:30 comes. Right... where all of our reasoning comes from. 47:32 And then he says the analogy that that arguing against 47:35 the very source of your ability to argue 47:37 would be like cutting off the very branch you're sitting on. 47:40 Remember that statement? Of course. Yeah, it's a great one. 47:42 So if God considered it worth the risk then 47:45 it probably was worth the risk. 47:47 OK, so are there any scriptures that we could wrap around 47:52 the idea of love, freedom, risk? 47:56 The basic answer to the question we're giving 47:59 is there scripture that bears that out? 48:02 I think there's a lot of scripture. 48:03 I think the whole tenor of scripture bears that out. 48:06 The entire canon of Scripture - Old and New Testaments - 48:09 are written against the backdrop of love, 48:12 freedom, risk. And I always add a fourth element to that. 48:16 Love requires freedom; freedom involves risk; 48:18 risk entails responsibility; 48:19 and responsibility is that which makes for moral growth. 48:26 OK... so just imagine the situation. 48:27 How could... OK, I have two children: 48:30 an 11-year-old and a 13-year old. 48:32 And I am seeking to instill in them values 48:36 that will help them to make wise choices, 48:38 moral choices, judicious choices. 48:42 I want them to be good people, wonderful people, good kids. 48:45 And they are, throughout their whole day at school 48:49 and then they come home. They're hanging out with their friends. 48:51 They are continually faced - as we all are, but I'm just 48:53 using the illustration of children here - 48:55 with a series of choices. And in those choices 48:59 they are faced with morally superior and morally inferior 49:02 choices in the way that they treat people, 49:04 the way that they treat their classmates, 49:06 the way that they respond to their teacher, 49:07 whether or not to be honest with their parents. 49:09 It's just easy when we talk about children. 49:11 So they're faced continually with: "OK, should I be honest 49:14 with dad or should I try to cover that up? " 49:16 "Should I make fun of that kid because all my friends are 49:19 or should I reach out to him and be kind? " 49:20 They are continually faced... And what I'm saying 49:23 to my boys is: "Boys, you will never grow and become 49:27 the person that you are capable of being 49:29 if you're not given the opportunity to make choices 49:33 in which there are actual benefits from making the right 49:36 choice and actual consequences for making the wrong choice. " 49:40 The only way to grow is to have a matrix in which 49:44 moral choices with actual consequences are possible. 49:48 Um-hmm. You follow that? Yeah! 49:50 So in that sense, how would God ever get 49:53 beings like us - human beings - 49:55 to the place where we would see the consequences of sin? 49:59 The consequences of selfishness? The consequences of 50:02 all of the bad choices that we make unless He created 50:05 an environment in which that could actually take place. 50:09 We become better people, more godly people, 50:12 more loving people, more trusting people, 50:14 more trustworthy people as we make decisions 50:18 that are fraught with consequences. 50:21 And without it, growth can't occur! 50:23 You know, I really... I really like that in this sense. 50:26 And I'm just going to go back to the illustration 50:28 that I experienced. Recently I was just sitting with some 50:31 friends. We were talking together about spiritual things 50:34 and one of them was talking about some challenges 50:37 they were having at work 50:38 and counseling they were getting because of the difficulty 50:41 they were going through and how the counselor 50:44 was basically telling them that they should just kind of... 50:47 I don't know how to say this; I want to say it carefully 50:51 because the way it came across was just like this counselor 50:54 was basically saying: "You know, that person that's annoying you 50:57 in your life you just need to consider that person 50:59 a non person and that's the way you'll be able to deal with 51:01 this situation. " A professional counselor? Yeah. 51:04 "You just consider that person a non person 51:05 and that's the way you'll be able to deal with it. " 51:09 I won't tell you the word but it was pretty bad. 51:12 So we're talking about this and I'm taking it in 51:14 and I'm realizing that this person 51:16 that's getting the counseling 51:18 is really going through some struggles with this individual. 51:21 And so for them it was a great relief. 51:24 And so now I'm really struggling because I'm thinking 51:27 "OK, I've gotta pray about this. " 51:28 In a sense there's something inside of me that wants to say 51:32 "Yeah, how dare that person treat you this way! 51:35 I agree with that counselor... 51:36 that's the way you need to treat that person. " 51:38 That's my natural tendency. But then all of a sudden 51:40 there's a thing that kicks in and I just started talking 51:45 about the fact that: "You know what? The reason why 51:48 that person treats you that way is because you are loving, 51:51 you are kind, you are supportive. 51:53 You are a Christian through and through. 51:55 That's the kind of person you are. 51:57 And that person is treating you that way because they either 52:00 want that and they don't know how to get it 52:03 or they're jealous of it and they want to destroy it. " 52:05 I said: "Either way, the goal 52:08 for that person and the goal for you... 52:10 the goal for you I should say... is you don't want to 52:13 treat them as a non person. You want to hold on 52:16 to the person that you are in Jesus Christ. 52:18 You want to hold on to the principles of love 52:20 that make you who you are. " 52:21 And I said... because this person was getting in the way 52:24 of their academic future... I said: "That is insignificant 52:28 in comparison to what God has made you and the person that 52:31 you are. And that's the real issue. 52:34 It doesn't matter if you have degrees all the way down 52:35 your arm as long as you hold on to the person that you are. 52:39 That the loving, Christ-like, forgiving, supportive person: 52:43 that is going to be the goal. " 52:44 And it was just like: "Yes! " 52:45 And to me, when you're talking about reward 52:47 yeah, we can talk about on a temporal level, 52:49 we can talk about... but that is the ultimate reward. 52:51 Because after we were finished talking 52:54 and we prayed together they were just like this was it. 52:57 You could just tell there was peace, there was joy, 52:59 there was hope. These are the rewards: 53:01 peace, joy, hope. It's not so much even temporal reward. 53:04 It's this whole idea and I think we see this even in 53:07 Enoch - I won't go into the details - but this whole idea 53:09 even if there wasn't eternal life, even if there wasn't 53:11 eternity beyond this, the kingdom of God is within you. 53:14 It's the peace, the joy, and the hope that we have right here 53:17 on this earth - there you go - in dealing with the sin, 53:19 in dealing with the evil, in dealing with the situations 53:21 that we're faced with here. 53:22 I'd say it like this: too often, in keeping with that thinking 53:27 there, too often we think of heaven... 53:28 This is going way back to our first conversation 53:31 that we had about how the evangelist said to your mom 53:34 "The Bible says it; there- fore you should believe it. " 53:35 We present scripture almost too much in a reward 53:40 "Do this and you'll get this and if you don't 53:42 then you won't. " OK... so on that note 53:45 God is going to take everybody to heaven. 53:48 God is going to give everyone eternal life 53:51 who would be happy in that circumstance. 53:54 And when you think about it that way that's so powerful 53:57 because what God is basically saying is 53:59 "You were given the opportunity to become the person 54:02 that I have created you to be. " 54:03 I would say it even this way: We are each given the opportunity 54:06 to be fully human. There are people in the world 54:09 who are so devoid of compassion, of kindness 54:13 they have polluted their minds 54:14 and they literally are more like beasts. 54:17 You mentioned earlier, Ty, that there's gotta be more to life 54:20 than just eating and reproducing. 54:22 Well, there are people that that is the whole of life 54:26 AND there's a cruelty associated with it because 54:29 "If you get in my way, you will be smashed. " 54:32 Um-hmm. This whole way that... 54:34 there are people that are just brute beasts. 54:36 They actually are humans made in the image of God 54:38 but by choices that they have made they've made their choices 54:41 and now their choices have made them. 54:43 And these people would not be... They've not made 54:47 the choices that could create them, turn them into 54:51 the kinds of people that would be happy in the presence of God 54:53 for eternity. Yeah. So this isn't God arbitrarily 54:56 withholding from them something that they could 55:00 other... They can't help it because they have incapacitated 55:04 themselves. When we think about it that way 55:07 we're asking the question: Why is there so much suffering? 55:09 Well, there's a lot of ways to answer that question. 55:13 But at the bottom-most level of the answer to that question 55:16 is freedom. Yeah. 55:19 Freedom. People have made choices. 55:22 Those impact upon us. They cause sometimes happiness, 55:26 sometimes joy, sometimes bliss, and sometimes pain. 55:29 Now again, then there is the whole dimension beyond. 55:31 There's natural disasters and there's cancers 55:34 and there's other things that are not directly traceable 55:37 to a choice made by a person to stab me with a knife 55:41 or hold a gun to my head or whatever. 55:43 And that's where we say: "Even if we knew the causal 55:46 chain... " Right. But we know it all goes back to sin. 55:51 We know it all does go back to the first causal source. 55:53 We know it all does go back to the choice we make. 55:56 Someone else has... that Jesus says in John chapter 12 55:59 stepped in as the prince of this world, and in John 10:10 56:02 um-hmm - Jesus says: "He... " that person... 56:06 has come to do nothing but kill, steal, and destroy. " 56:08 "And I have come that they might have life 56:10 and they might have it more abundantly. " 56:11 I read one time that all of life for every individual 56:18 is going to finally boil down 56:21 to either the individual saying to God 56:27 "Thy will be done" 56:29 or God saying to the individual 56:32 "Thy will be done. " Yeah, that's Lewis. 56:34 Ultimately every human being is going to be in a position 56:39 where their free will... 56:42 their free will is the ultimate factor 56:46 that determines the kind of person they became 56:50 and their ultimate destiny. Um-hmm. 56:52 And human free will by God's choice... 56:55 not because God is weak 56:57 but by God's design... human free will 57:01 can trump the ultimate will of God. Wow! 57:04 God DOES WANT me and you and everyone at this table 57:08 and everyone in the world 57:10 to ultimately be eternally saved. 57:13 Some people simply won't be. 57:15 Not because God didn't want them to be 57:17 but because they aligned their will against the will of God. 57:21 And God is just. This is almost a trite way of saying it 57:24 but God is just the perfect gentleman enough 57:28 to say: "Anybody... " as you said... 57:33 "who would be happy for eternity in this kind of kingdom 57:38 will be there. " Is welcome. Yeah. 57:40 Anybody can come... everybody can come. 57:42 All you have to do 57:46 is want to be here in this kind of environment, 57:50 this kind of kingdom. And for God to force others 57:52 into his kingdom, they would be miserable 57:54 throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity. 57:56 So that would in essence be cruel. 57:58 It would be cruel. 57:59 Yeah. That would be God basically saying 58:03 "Everything in you is contrary to everything in Me 58:09 but I'm going to force you to be in a room with Me forever. " 58:12 You know what I'm saying? 58:13 I know what you're saying. I mean: "You're going to have to 58:16 look at Me and be with Me 58:18 forever in this space and never escape 58:22 and you hate it but I'm going to force you to do it. " 58:26 It's like being forced to emigrate into some country 58:30 where... dictator-run regime... 58:33 and every ideal and value of that country 58:35 you despise so you're forced to be a citizen of that country. 58:39 And of course the illustration is not perfect there 58:41 because God is not a dictator. But many people think of God 58:45 in just that way. That's the point... yeah. 58:47 God is anything BUT. They would be miserable because 58:50 of the perception. The most foundational value 58:53 in the universe is freedom. 58:55 Yeah. This is God's highest will 58:58 for every being is to be free. Um-hmm. 59:01 The problem is that the things that we too often choose... 59:04 that we choose... the things that we think will bring freedom 59:08 actually end up enslaving us. 59:10 And Jesus came that we might... might be free. 59:14 That's the bottom line 59:15 and that's the point on which we have to close 59:18 because our time is up. |
Revised 2019-07-09