This conversation
we're going to tackle
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what is arguably the
most difficult question
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for a lot of people
- maybe for everybody -
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because you
can't go through life -
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not on planet earth -
and not encounter suffering
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or experience it yourself.
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So the question - the hard
question - that we're going to
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process right
now is simply this:
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if God is love, why is there
so much suffering in the world?
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I mean, really, is there
a more personal question?
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People suffer...
people go through things.
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You get the diagnosis of cancer;
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you have family members
who are in a car accident
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and somebody ends up paralyzed.
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Everybody asks the
why question. Um-hmm.
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But what I find fascinating
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is that there is a why question.
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The fact that we ask why at all
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indicates that we're not...
we're not totally comfortable
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with things going wrong. Um-hmm.
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There's a baseline assumption
that things ought to be going
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right. So we live in a
psychological dissonance,
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so to speak,
where we have some sense
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that suffering
ought not to be - um-hmm -
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that death ought
not to be - mmm -
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and it's on that
premise that we say:
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"Well why does
it happen at all? "
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And then the thing gets
more complex when you throw God
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into the picture and
somebody says: "Well God exists.
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God is good; God loves you. "
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And then boom!
You're suffering. Um-hmm.
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So if God is
good, if God is love,
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and if God is
God... if God is powerful,
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why doesn't He
intervene to stop a, b, and c,
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x, y, and z from taking place?
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So that's the question.
Several different layers
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to the question but I love the
way he's framed the question.
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That's like 4-5 layers there.
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But I think fundamentally
one, I think, interesting
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preliminary point is where
you were alluding to there that
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if... if God is out of the pic-
ture, we're merely the products
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of nature, we wouldn't be aware
that there's something wrong.
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We wouldn't be aware
that starvation is wrong
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or something's
not right with that.
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It's kind of like
one philosopher said that
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fish are not
aware that they're wet.
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But if... So if I fell into
a pool I'd be immediately aware
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that I'm wet 'cause that's
not my natural environment.
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I'm not in the natural...
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something's wrong
with my environment.
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I'd be aware of
that. So similarly
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in defense of Jesus and of God
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it's usually articulated because
the world is so messed up
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"God can't exist. "
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Is there a sense... I'm
just posing a question...
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is there a sense that
the fact that we're aware...
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That we're wet? Yeah.
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Um-hmm. That
something's wrong with this room
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is in itself indicative
that intuitively we know
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there has to be
something beyond nature, i.e.
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I think that's the question
Ty began with. The supernatural.
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Yeah. I want to say two
things at the outset here.
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The first thing I want to say
is I love the fact that we're
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framing this question
as we are, and that is that
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we seem incapable of being
indifferent to or ambivalent
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about suffering. We
seem incapable of not
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attaching some moral framework
to the existence of suffering
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whether personal,
familial, or something we just
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see on the television. We
immediately have the response
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of justice,
fairness, equitability.
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That's the first thing I want to
say, and I think we're going to
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have to wrestle
with that. Um-hmm.
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The second thing that I want to
say is that this is the hardest
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of the hard
questions in my evaluation
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for the committed
believer, for the person that
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professes faith in a good God.
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Suffering is not a particularly
difficult philosophical problem
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for somebody who
doesn't believe in God.
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Right... it's
just natural process.
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Yeah, it is what it is.
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The moral component only
comes in if we try to affirm
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two seemingly
contradictory things.
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God is good; God is
love; God is powerful,
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i.e. capable - um-hmm -
and yet this is the world
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that we live in.
Now we have tension.
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If we take that kind
of a God out of the...
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or maybe have a
capricious God or an unkind God
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or a malevolent God... then you
have no problem with suffering.
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Not a philosophical problem.
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You still have the
experiential problem.
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But sitting here at this table
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we are forced with a question
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that is the hardest of
the hard questions. Um-hmm.
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And I think we need
to say right up front
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that I think at
best what we can do here
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is allow Scripture to
point us in a direction - yeah -
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a direction in which
we can see that the truth
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is just over that hill.
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Actually more correctly
it's on top of that hill.
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It's on the cross
on top of that hill.
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But as far as the specifics of
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"Why did that child get
cancer and that child didn't? "
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and "Why does that
newly-wed couple get killed
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in a car accident and that
one didn't? " Yeah... yeah.
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Nobody knows. We're not going to
be able to answer that question.
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I'd like to build
on that because...
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because I think we need
to confess our ignorance
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right up front. In
confessing our ignorance
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we're suggesting that every
human being shares that same
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level of ignorance regarding
any given incident of suffering.
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And that ignorance
is grounded in the fact
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that we live in a world
that involves a complexity
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of intersecting events
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that come to bear
upon any given situation.
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Um-hmm. In other words,
to know why that particular
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car accident occurred
you would have to know
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all the causal chain of events
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in each situation
that led up to going back
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who knows how far back.
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You'd have to know
why why why why why why
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why why why way out.
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Some philosophers have called
that the "butterfly effect. "
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Yeah. Chaos
theory. Yeah. It's the idea
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that everything is
connected to everything else.
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So we have to confess that
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only on the level of
infinite wisdom and omniscience
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God alone knows precisely
why that event happened.
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Good point. People
deal with this all the time.
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They say: "OK, so this
one family got in their car
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and they prayed that
God would keep them safe
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as they drove to
their destination.
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This family got in their car
across town and prayed the same
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prayer. One gets in a car
accident; the other didn't.
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What gives? "
Something happened there.
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And that introduces a
third difficult element
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which is the issue of prayer
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which we should definitely
address at some point in our
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conversation. But
keep going, keep going.
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OK. So my point is that
reality is sufficiently complex
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that the only way
for us to make sense
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out of why any
suffering takes place
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is to understand the
principle, the macro principle,
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the big-picture principles
that would help us to say
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"OK... we know
why in the big sense
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suffering takes place but
we don't know all the details
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that led up to that par-
ticular incident of suffering. "
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So we can bring to the table
principles of love and freedom
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for example. Um-hmm. And
that answers the question
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on the big picture level.
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But then well wait a minute.
Sometimes people will say:
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"That child was innocent!
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Why did that child suffer
that particular situation? "
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And we just need to come to
the conclusion, the realization
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that there are
intersecting wills.
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There's more than one
will at play - that's right -
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in this complex
world in which we live.
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Not just God's will.
What about? There's your will,
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my will.
Millions, billions of wills.
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What do you guys
think about the question
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"Would it even be
helpful to know specifically
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the answer to all of those
specific details, situations? "
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In other words,
the big question is
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in spite of pain
and suffering and chaos
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and the seemingly
arbitrary nature of life
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do I have sufficient grounds
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to trust God? Yeah. I'd
like to speak to that too,
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'cause that's... Yeah, because
to me it seems to me that
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at that level
that's the question.
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Because if something
specific happens to me
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leaving this place
here we're assuming
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I'm driving home and I
get into some car accident,
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what have you, or some-
thing happens to a loved one,
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if I were to ask the
question: "Why did this happen
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to this individual today? "
and somebody could literally
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give me the actual answer
- um-hmm - give me the causal
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the causal ripple effect chain
domino effect of all events
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and then I'm going to sit
there and say: "Ah, so glad you
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you explained that to me.
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Thank you so much.
That makes me feel so... "
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There wouldn't be
satisfaction. No! No!
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What kind of satisfaction would
I get from you explaining -
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yeah- the causal, cumulative
effect of the last thousand
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events that took
place that led to that one?
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You see what I'm saying? Yeah.
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So you're still
experiencing that suffering.
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It still hurts;
you still hate it.
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You still wish it didn't happen.
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I've lost somebody still. They
won't be in tomorrow morning.
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So my point is that it's
even questionable if that...
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if that would even be helpful
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'cause we're basically
confessing there's no way for us
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to know. I'm simply
going a step further.
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Even if we did
know... Even if we DID know
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it wouldn't be particularly
helpful I don't think.
00:10:04.27\00:10:07.27
I think there's two
ways to look at that.
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In 2003 I was diagnosed
with cancer... thyroid cancer.
00:10:09.17\00:10:14.28
And one of the things that
really helped me to deal with
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thyroid cancer...
So I'm a Christian,
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I'm following the Bible,
I'm specifically really into
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eating healthfully, living
healthfully, getting exercise...
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that kind of stuff. My
mom, who found out about this
00:10:27.36\00:10:29.89
her first response was:
"OK, so you're a vegetarian
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and you are a healthy
person. You don't smoke;
00:10:32.69\00:10:34.66
you don't drink. " She does.
00:10:34.86\00:10:36.46
So the inference was
there: "You've got cancer
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and I don't. She was
diagnosed with nothing. Right.
00:10:39.73\00:10:41.54
"You've got
cancer and I don't. "
00:10:41.74\00:10:43.07
So, you know, it was
hard, that was difficult.
00:10:43.14\00:10:46.27
And one of the things that help-
ed me - thanks, Mom, for that -
00:10:46.47\00:10:48.81
but she was more
sympathetic towards me.
00:10:49.01\00:10:52.78
Right. She was like:
"I can't believe this. "
00:10:52.98\00:10:54.58
That was really bothering me;
she was really troubled by it.
00:10:54.78\00:10:56.69
And so one of the
things that really helped me
00:10:57.09\00:10:59.42
was to know that
thyroid cancer is primarily
00:10:59.62\00:11:03.43
a result of being
exposed to radiation
00:11:03.63\00:11:08.53
and not a result
of lifestyle. Yeah.
00:11:08.73\00:11:10.93
So it was really
helpful for me to know that.
00:11:11.27\00:11:12.87
So there are times when
it is good for us to know
00:11:13.07\00:11:15.44
but let me get to
your point you're making
00:11:15.64\00:11:18.04
I think is really true.
So then I'm in this situation
00:11:18.24\00:11:21.08
where as a person who's
known by different people
00:11:21.28\00:11:24.95
the word gets out, people
are praying for me, whatever,
00:11:25.15\00:11:26.78
but then I start receiving
e- mails and I start receiving
00:11:27.18\00:11:29.88
input from people - oh,
yeah - about my situation.
00:11:30.09\00:11:33.12
And suggestions of what to do?
00:11:33.32\00:11:34.82
And thousands of
reasons why it happened. Umm.
00:11:35.02\00:11:37.46
Because you didn't do this
and because you didn't do that.
00:11:37.66\00:11:39.46
Because of this idea a
curse causeless does not come
00:11:39.66\00:11:42.63
which I believe is the
macro. The macro is: yeah,
00:11:43.03\00:11:45.57
this world... we're in a curse
and there's a cause for this.
00:11:45.77\00:11:48.24
Evil, free will, etc.
00:11:48.44\00:11:49.94
But in my situation
I don't want to know
00:11:50.14\00:11:54.88
who specifically
exposed me to that radiation.
00:11:55.28\00:11:58.51
Where it happened.
00:11:58.71\00:12:00.32
I don't want to be having to
deal with the bitter thoughts
00:12:00.52\00:12:03.52
towards your dentist?
toward my dentist or toward
00:12:03.72\00:12:08.36
whichever security
that you had to go through.
00:12:08.56\00:12:10.66
whichever security,
yeah. Or towards a nuclear
00:12:10.86\00:12:12.96
science that we're using
freely or whatever it is.
00:12:13.16\00:12:16.53
I don't want it because
then I've gotta deal with
00:12:16.73\00:12:18.80
"Ah... man! " You see what
I'm saying? So like you said
00:12:19.00\00:12:23.04
there are certain things
that aren't helpful to us.
00:12:23.24\00:12:25.47
We don't have the capacity
to even deal with that answer
00:12:25.67\00:12:28.14
even if it were accessible.
OR it's more for us to process.
00:12:28.34\00:12:31.18
In other words now I have
to process not only this factor
00:12:31.38\00:12:33.21
but also I've
gotta deal with people.
00:12:33.42\00:12:35.22
And I had to deal with people
who were saying: "You know,
00:12:35.42\00:12:37.29
the reason why this
happened to you is because
00:12:37.49\00:12:39.12
you didn't do this
or you did do this. "
00:12:39.32\00:12:40.89
And I've now got to process
that and deal with those people.
00:12:41.09\00:12:42.96
And so for me...
yeah, I agree totally.
00:12:43.16\00:12:45.86
Yeah, sometimes
it's not helpful.
00:12:46.06\00:12:47.70
Instead of having
the full reason... yeah.
00:12:47.90\00:12:51.27
You were saying some-
thing about multiple wills...
00:12:51.67\00:12:54.87
yeah... taking place. I
think that's a powerful thing.
00:12:55.07\00:12:57.07
I wonder if we could
maybe look at some Biblical?
00:12:57.27\00:13:02.24
Well what are the macro
things that he's talking about?
00:13:02.44\00:13:04.45
Like you said them
there: love and freedom.
00:13:04.65\00:13:07.58
Love is the
basis... it's the foundation.
00:13:07.78\00:13:10.79
God is love, and love
in order to be genuine
00:13:10.99\00:13:14.09
love requires freedom. Um-hmm.
00:13:14.29\00:13:17.26
I can't force you to love me.
I can't take out a gun and say:
00:13:17.46\00:13:19.96
"David, I'm going to
pull this trigger unless you
00:13:20.16\00:13:23.90
love me. " Um-hmm.
Because that's not love.
00:13:24.10\00:13:27.50
Just in that moment love
has been completely eliminated
00:13:27.70\00:13:33.01
from the
possibility. You can't do it.
00:13:33.21\00:13:34.71
I could be afraid of you. Yes.
00:13:34.91\00:13:36.54
I could respect you maybe.
00:13:36.75\00:13:38.35
But, yeah... or
you could be, you know,
00:13:38.55\00:13:41.68
anyway. I could be in
awe of your power to kill me.
00:13:41.88\00:13:45.25
I'm trying to think
what would the emotions be.
00:13:47.09\00:13:49.56
How could I
respond to that? Yeah.
00:13:49.76\00:13:51.69
It would be a
bunch of bad emotions.
00:13:51.89\00:13:54.23
Bad, negative, but not love.
00:13:54.43\00:13:55.76
There's no love there.
It doesn't develop love,
00:13:55.93\00:13:57.73
it doesn't create love.
Yeah, I could love you...
00:13:57.93\00:13:59.93
I could love you
for a hundred reasons
00:14:00.14\00:14:03.10
but I wouldn't love you as a
result of that kind of request.
00:14:03.30\00:14:07.08
And that's what you're saying.
And that kind of request could
00:14:07.28\00:14:08.68
actually diminish the
other reasons why you love me.
00:14:08.88\00:14:11.08
Yeah, I normally would
under normal circumstances.
00:14:11.28\00:14:12.61
You're asking
what are the macro.
00:14:12.68\00:14:14.02
The macro in
regards to this question is
00:14:14.05\00:14:16.38
the big picture of Scripture: we
live in a fallen broken world.
00:14:16.58\00:14:20.39
But we're going back to
why... how that happened.
00:14:20.79\00:14:24.13
How could a God of
love create a world
00:14:24.53\00:14:27.86
that is fallen and broken and
full of sin and pain and evil?
00:14:28.06\00:14:30.57
Well, the question
that has been asked of me
00:14:30.77\00:14:32.17
I know it's been asked
of Ty because we've had this
00:14:32.37\00:14:34.14
conversation and
probably with you as well.
00:14:34.30\00:14:35.74
And I've heard it
debated philosophically
00:14:35.94\00:14:37.64
in books and in
videos that I've seen
00:14:37.84\00:14:39.91
and even in live events
is: "OK, if God possesses
00:14:40.11\00:14:44.81
omnipotence, if He has
the resources of all power
00:14:45.01\00:14:48.08
at His disposal, then
why didn't He just configure
00:14:48.28\00:14:51.42
the world so that
these things don't happen? "
00:14:51.62\00:14:55.46
They're not possible.
Yeah! They're not possible.
00:14:55.66\00:14:57.86
Not only that they are not like-
ly but they are not possible.
00:14:58.06\00:15:00.73
Well, let's
rationally think it through.
00:15:00.93\00:15:02.96
What would the options be? OK.
00:15:03.87\00:15:06.33
Here we've got
our kind of world -
00:15:06.53\00:15:07.87
our existing world -
with its up side and down side
00:15:08.00\00:15:12.27
potential. Um-hmm. Freedom comes
with the risk of an up side
00:15:12.47\00:15:17.15
and down side. That's
the world we live in. Um-hmm.
00:15:17.35\00:15:19.51
What would the
options be to that?
00:15:19.91\00:15:22.72
I can't think
of a lot of options
00:15:23.12\00:15:24.45
except for no world at all.
00:15:24.59\00:15:25.95
God could have just said:
00:15:26.15\00:15:27.49
"I'm not going to create
anything at all. " Um-hmm.
00:15:27.52\00:15:29.62
Number two would
be a world of puppets.
00:15:29.82\00:15:32.56
Micro managed? Yeah.
00:15:32.76\00:15:34.10
Any time we go in a direction
that is not in harmony with
00:15:34.13\00:15:37.83
that principle of love,
any time we go away from that:
00:15:38.03\00:15:40.40
"Stop! No! Back
here... this is what you do. "
00:15:40.60\00:15:43.94
There's not multiple
wills. No, there's one will.
00:15:46.81\00:15:49.58
There's one will.
Somebody's pulling strings.
00:15:49.78\00:15:51.11
Everything that happens has to
conform to God's overall will.
00:15:51.31\00:15:55.12
And I can eliminate our will.
00:15:55.32\00:15:56.65
And I can only
think of one other option.
00:15:56.69\00:15:58.02
Maybe you guys
can think of others.
00:15:58.15\00:15:59.49
No world at all, a
puppet world, or a slave world.
00:15:59.52\00:16:01.72
Puppet and slave is
the same thing. Well, no...
00:16:02.79\00:16:04.79
no they're not... they're not
because the puppet world is a
00:16:04.99\00:16:08.06
world of material things
that don't possess free will.
00:16:08.26\00:16:13.70
OK. They're mechanical devices.
00:16:14.10\00:16:16.20
A slave is a free-will
creature that's dominated. OK.
00:16:16.40\00:16:20.28
You see what I'm saying?
00:16:20.48\00:16:21.81
I think you're right but I
think at least the way that
00:16:21.84\00:16:24.31
I'm seeing it that slave world
would eventually just become
00:16:24.58\00:16:26.82
the puppet world.
You would just be so
00:16:27.02\00:16:29.88
immune to even trying
to do something that was
00:16:30.09\00:16:32.05
outside of the
parameters of the Sovereign will
00:16:32.25\00:16:34.66
but it's a point well taken.
00:16:34.86\00:16:36.62
Well, ask yourself
the question, David.
00:16:36.83\00:16:38.83
You're getting married;
you're wife's name is Violeta.
00:16:39.03\00:16:41.86
We have choices before us.
00:16:42.06\00:16:43.40
"What kind of home
are we going to have? "
00:16:43.50\00:16:44.93
That's right. Are
we going to have a home
00:16:45.13\00:16:46.47
in which we give
birth to children
00:16:46.63\00:16:48.40
and those
children are going to live
00:16:48.60\00:16:50.04
in what kind of environment?
What kind of environment
00:16:50.24\00:16:52.21
will we create for our children?
00:16:52.41\00:16:53.84
Will we micromanage
every decision they make?
00:16:54.04\00:16:56.38
Or will we give them freedom?
00:16:56.58\00:16:58.58
What kind of home
do you want? Um-hmm.
00:16:58.98\00:17:00.55
And you're right. One
way that we can ensure
00:17:00.78\00:17:03.42
or could have ensured that
we would have no rebellious
00:17:03.62\00:17:05.89
teenagers, that we would have no
drug addict sons or whatever -
00:17:06.09\00:17:09.02
um-hmm - would be to
have had no children.
00:17:09.22\00:17:10.93
Yeah. We could have
solved those problems
00:17:11.33\00:17:14.13
right out front by not
having that connection.
00:17:14.33\00:17:17.17
You're assuming
that it's worth the risk.
00:17:17.37\00:17:19.87
In other words... So by
bringing children into the world
00:17:20.97\00:17:24.41
you said: "It's
worth the risk. "
00:17:24.61\00:17:26.81
The potential for love
actuated from a free will -
00:17:27.01\00:17:30.75
yeah - is worth the risk
00:17:30.95\00:17:33.92
of the potential
that you described.
00:17:34.12\00:17:36.48
So here's how... we
frame this question negatively
00:17:36.69\00:17:39.09
in much of our conversation
reflective of the difficult,
00:17:39.29\00:17:42.89
dark world of
trial that we live in.
00:17:43.09\00:17:46.26
This is an appropriate
way to frame the question
00:17:46.46\00:17:48.56
"If God is so good, why
is there so much suffering? "
00:17:48.76\00:17:50.77
But we could easily
ask another question.
00:17:51.17\00:17:54.27
It's not the question
that begs to be asked.
00:17:54.47\00:17:56.97
But we could ask the question:
"Why is the world so awesome? "
00:17:57.17\00:18:00.68
Yeah, why is
there any good at all?
00:18:00.88\00:18:02.21
Yeah. What about the
beauty of a symphony or a sunset
00:18:02.24\00:18:04.61
or a beautiful child. In
other words, people don't
00:18:04.81\00:18:07.25
tend to ask themselves? "Why
do I have such a great life? "
00:18:07.45\00:18:10.62
"Why does this
mango taste so amazing? "
00:18:10.82\00:18:12.82
"Why am I surrounded
by people that love me
00:18:13.02\00:18:14.82
and I love them? "
Why do bad things happen
00:18:15.02\00:18:16.93
to good people or why do good
things happen to bad people?
00:18:17.13\00:18:19.43
Exactly! So we're
framing the question
00:18:19.63\00:18:21.16
which is appropriate - yeah
- from the suffering aspect.
00:18:21.36\00:18:24.27
And the truth of the matter is
Ty said the highs and the lows.
00:18:24.47\00:18:26.77
These are two
sides of the same coin.
00:18:26.97\00:18:28.44
In other words, the risk
involved in having a world
00:18:29.44\00:18:32.24
with mangoes and
happiness and you just go...
00:18:32.44\00:18:34.61
that list is the flip
side of - yeah - pain,
00:18:35.31\00:18:41.02
suffering, rape, genocide,
00:18:41.22\00:18:44.65
abuse, oppression, injustice.
00:18:44.85\00:18:47.72
It's this and this.
00:18:48.12\00:18:49.46
I think we could summarize
this point by simply saying -
00:18:49.52\00:18:51.76
confessing - that our world
is not the best possible world
00:18:52.16\00:18:56.73
but it is the best
possible world for getting us
00:18:57.13\00:19:01.97
to the best possible
world. Does that make sense?
00:19:02.17\00:19:04.77
Makes perfect sense to me.
00:19:04.97\00:19:06.31
In other words, the
ultimate thing that we know
00:19:06.34\00:19:08.74
could be and that we long for
00:19:08.94\00:19:10.95
is only accessible
through a state of affairs
00:19:11.35\00:19:16.82
in which it could go bad.
00:19:17.02\00:19:18.52
If it can't go bad at all,
then it can't genuinely be good.
00:19:18.92\00:19:22.86
Um-hmm. There would be
no goodness if there is no
00:19:23.06\00:19:25.49
potential for
badness. Yeah, that's great.
00:19:25.69\00:19:28.66
I love that. Going
back to our macro values.
00:19:28.86\00:19:31.70
Freedom. I think when
we return after the break
00:19:32.10\00:19:34.57
we have to say if we were going
to create our most perfect world
00:19:34.77\00:19:38.07
we would say that freedom
would be a preeminent value
00:19:38.27\00:19:41.38
in that world. Yeah.
00:19:41.58\00:19:43.01
It would have to be. So
then we have to have a situation
00:19:43.21\00:19:45.61
where people learn
how to use their freedom
00:19:45.81\00:19:48.78
in responsible,
loving, other-centered ways.
00:19:48.98\00:19:52.59
And we are in the
midst, according to Scripture,
00:19:52.79\00:19:55.42
that is the midst of the
experiment in which we are in
00:19:55.62\00:19:59.19
right now. Yeah. I mean, nobody
00:19:59.39\00:20:01.56
given a choice would
choose to live for example
00:20:01.76\00:20:05.03
in North Korea over
living say in France.
00:20:05.23\00:20:08.27
You know that
there's a big down side
00:20:09.94\00:20:12.77
to a society in which people
can do whatever they want,
00:20:12.97\00:20:15.64
but you're not going to choose
00:20:16.04\00:20:18.48
the situation where you
can't do whatever you want.
00:20:18.68\00:20:21.22
You're going to choose the
free society over the controlled
00:20:21.42\00:20:24.92
society. You're just going to
because you're willing to take
00:20:25.12\00:20:28.32
those risks because you
know that there's a greater
00:20:28.52\00:20:31.13
potential for beauty
and goodness and happiness
00:20:31.33\00:20:34.46
right there in that situation.
00:20:34.66\00:20:36.36
So yeah, let's pursue
this further after the break.
00:20:36.56\00:20:38.70
Hi, I'm Ty Gibson.
Welcome to digma.com
00:20:46.74\00:20:49.71
I am so excited
about this website
00:20:49.91\00:20:52.01
because you're about to
discover a powerful new way
00:20:52.21\00:20:55.22
to share
life-transforming messages
00:20:55.42\00:20:57.72
and videos with your family,
friends, and anybody else
00:20:57.92\00:21:00.76
on the planet who
has access to a computer.
00:21:00.96\00:21:03.12
Digma is a Greek
word. It basically means
00:21:04.49\00:21:07.60
to show or to reveal something
by means of a pattern or an
00:21:07.80\00:21:11.10
example of some kind.
00:21:11.30\00:21:12.63
It's the second half
of the word paradigma
00:21:12.83\00:21:15.87
from which we get
the English word paradigm
00:21:16.07\00:21:18.41
as in paradigm shift.
00:21:18.61\00:21:20.68
And so what you're
going to find at digma.com
00:21:20.98\00:21:23.58
is a growing library of
short videos and transcripts
00:21:23.78\00:21:26.58
dealing with paradigms
and fundamental questions.
00:21:26.78\00:21:30.02
What's the meaning of life?
00:21:30.82\00:21:32.49
What is our origin and
destiny as human beings?
00:21:32.89\00:21:36.32
What happens when we die?
00:21:36.73\00:21:38.53
Does God exist? Or are we
alone in this vast universe?
00:21:38.93\00:21:42.93
Why is there so much evil
and suffering in our world?
00:21:43.33\00:21:46.90
An estimated 70% of Americans
00:21:47.40\00:21:50.11
have a computer right in
their home and stay in touch
00:21:50.31\00:21:53.51
with family and
friends by e-mail.
00:21:53.71\00:21:56.04
And more than 400 million
people are active on Facebook
00:21:56.54\00:22:00.75
and 5 million new users
are signing up every week.
00:22:01.15\00:22:05.72
We are literally in the midst
of a communications revolution
00:22:05.92\00:22:10.23
of massive proportions.
00:22:10.43\00:22:12.39
This is granting the
gospel direct and easy access
00:22:12.59\00:22:17.07
to millions upon
millions of homes and hearts.
00:22:17.27\00:22:21.10
And that's what
digma.com is all about.
00:22:21.64\00:22:24.71
It's a tool for
leading our family and friends
00:22:25.21\00:22:28.34
on an exciting paradigm shift
00:22:28.54\00:22:30.98
by revealing the truth
of God's creative power
00:22:31.18\00:22:34.52
and His incredibly
beautiful character
00:22:34.72\00:22:37.35
in contrast to our
world's popular misconceptions
00:22:37.55\00:22:42.16
about who God is.
00:22:42.36\00:22:44.26
So we started the
conversation talking about
00:23:02.18\00:23:04.75
these macro values
such as love and freedom
00:23:04.95\00:23:08.38
and I agree. Most... every-
body's going to agree with that.
00:23:08.58\00:23:13.09
You ended with the France
vs. North Korea illustration.
00:23:13.29\00:23:15.66
What I'd like to
do at this point...
00:23:16.52\00:23:18.13
tell me if you
guys are feeling this...
00:23:18.33\00:23:19.66
is let's go and sort
of look at some of these
00:23:19.69\00:23:22.20
principles that
we've been laying down
00:23:22.40\00:23:24.07
and let's find
them in Scripture.
00:23:24.27\00:23:25.60
The idea that
there's more than one will
00:23:25.70\00:23:27.24
and the idea that
freedom is the highest value.
00:23:27.44\00:23:29.97
Love is a high value. Um-hmm.
00:23:30.17\00:23:31.57
What are the texts of
Scripture that we can say
00:23:31.77\00:23:35.38
"You see, it's right
here! Here's a text that says
00:23:35.58\00:23:37.68
that this is the case. "
00:23:37.88\00:23:39.38
There are two I think
of that we could begin
00:23:39.58\00:23:41.02
the conversation on.
00:23:41.22\00:23:42.55
Almost everybody is
aware of the Lord's Prayer.
00:23:42.82\00:23:45.59
Um-hmm. "Our
Father, which art in heaven.
00:23:45.79\00:23:47.92
Hallowed be Thy
name. Thy kingdom come... "
00:23:48.12\00:23:49.52
There I'm doing it
in King James English.
00:23:49.72\00:23:52.33
But this is very interesting.
00:23:52.53\00:23:54.86
Keeping James happy!
00:23:55.06\00:23:57.07
How does that prayer end?
00:23:57.47\00:24:00.17
This is very interesting
language. You have here:
00:24:00.37\00:24:03.30
"Forgive us our debts as
we forgive our debtors. "
00:24:03.51\00:24:05.67
Forgiveness presupposes
that something was done
00:24:06.24\00:24:11.18
that ought not to
have been done. Um-hmm.
00:24:11.38\00:24:13.01
So right there is
the free will concept.
00:24:13.21\00:24:14.95
"Forgive us as we forgive. "
00:24:15.58\00:24:17.92
You're presupposing
freedom and something went bad.
00:24:18.32\00:24:21.26
OK, number two: "Do
not lead us into temptation
00:24:21.46\00:24:24.63
but deliver us from evil. "
00:24:24.83\00:24:26.23
Well that presupposes
that encountering temptation
00:24:26.63\00:24:30.50
I can do the bad thing
or not do the bad thing.
00:24:30.70\00:24:33.50
Right? Temptation you can
use your will in the wrong way.
00:24:33.70\00:24:37.01
I can say yes or
no to that temptation.
00:24:37.21\00:24:38.54
"So don't lead me there, Lord.
00:24:38.61\00:24:40.31
I don't want to
go that direction. "
00:24:40.51\00:24:42.24
"And deliver us from evil. "
That's a prayer that's saying:
00:24:42.44\00:24:45.81
"God, could You use
whatever leverage You have
00:24:46.01\00:24:49.02
to move me in
the right direction
00:24:49.42\00:24:51.29
so that I don't
make bad free choices. "
00:24:51.49\00:24:53.42
But then here's the "biggie: "
00:24:53.62\00:24:54.96
"For Yours is the
kingdom and the power
00:24:55.19\00:24:57.19
forever and ever amen. "
No, I missed something. Oh!
00:24:57.39\00:25:00.56
Oh here it is! "Our Father
in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
00:25:00.76\00:25:03.16
Thy kingdom
come; Thy will be done
00:25:03.37\00:25:04.83
on earth as it is in heaven. "
00:25:05.03\00:25:07.07
So there's the word
we're looking at: will.
00:25:07.27\00:25:09.10
Your will. "Your will be done
00:25:09.30\00:25:11.17
on earth as it is in heaven. "
00:25:11.37\00:25:13.01
Isn't that clear that there
are opposing wills? Um-hmm.
00:25:13.21\00:25:17.65
There is God's
will on the one hand
00:25:17.85\00:25:19.65
which apparently, according
to this scripture, is being done
00:25:19.85\00:25:22.38
perfectly in the heavenly realm.
00:25:22.58\00:25:24.62
But the prayer indicates
that God's will is not being
00:25:25.02\00:25:27.66
perfectly done -
um-hmm - on earth.
00:25:27.86\00:25:30.36
And so we're
saying: "God, let's make
00:25:30.56\00:25:33.76
the good stuff
happen that is Your will. "
00:25:33.96\00:25:37.00
That tells us a lot.
00:25:37.20\00:25:38.53
That tells us that God is
not the source and the origin
00:25:38.57\00:25:43.17
of the bad stuff. That that's
not what's going on in His will.
00:25:43.37\00:25:47.11
The bad stuff has its
origin in opposing wills.
00:25:47.51\00:25:50.68
I love the way that's written
and the way you went through
00:25:50.88\00:25:52.61
that. You didn't quite follow
that order, but going back
00:25:52.81\00:25:55.38
you did, and that was
this: "Thy will be done on earth
00:25:55.58\00:25:57.79
as it is in heaven. "
Forgive; deliverance from evil;
00:25:57.99\00:26:02.29
deliverance from temptation.
I mean, that's powerful
00:26:02.49\00:26:04.69
because it's not just saying
that there two different wills
00:26:04.89\00:26:07.43
being done, but it's saying
that the will that is being
00:26:07.63\00:26:10.20
carried out on earth that's
not being carried out in heaven
00:26:10.40\00:26:12.93
involves evil and temptation.
00:26:13.13\00:26:15.54
It involves a
need for forgiveness.
00:26:15.74\00:26:17.54
And those are the things
that have come to this earth
00:26:17.94\00:26:20.88
that were never
intended to be here
00:26:21.08\00:26:22.81
and that we want to be restored
back to the heavenly picture,
00:26:23.01\00:26:27.12
the heavenly pattern,
the way we were to be.
00:26:27.32\00:26:29.88
And that's even demonstrated
in the... Isn't the fact that
00:26:30.09\00:26:32.19
Jesus died on the
cross the ultimate statement
00:26:32.39\00:26:34.86
that God's will is not
always carried out on earth?
00:26:35.06\00:26:37.89
The fact that Jesus
had to die on the cross...
00:26:38.29\00:26:40.33
To say that He had
to die on the cross
00:26:41.66\00:26:43.80
and it uses different
language... in order to redeem
00:26:44.00\00:26:47.60
wills that were
exercised the wrong way.
00:26:47.80\00:26:51.34
Yeah... yeah.
Sin... what is sin?
00:26:51.54\00:26:53.68
Right? So you point to the cross
00:26:53.88\00:26:56.14
and basically you're saying that
the best and ultimate answer
00:26:56.34\00:26:59.11
to the question of: "If
God is love, why is there
00:26:59.31\00:27:01.42
suffering? " is that God entered
into solidarity with our pain.
00:27:01.62\00:27:05.69
Yeah. He didn't
remain aloof from it.
00:27:05.89\00:27:07.82
He jumped into the middle of it
00:27:08.02\00:27:09.59
and He has become a
partaker of our pain
00:27:09.79\00:27:15.63
and suffering rather
than remaining apart from it.
00:27:15.83\00:27:18.77
Yeah. That's remarkable!
00:27:18.97\00:27:20.40
And also the cross
showed that even though...
00:27:20.60\00:27:21.94
even though local
individual things are done
00:27:22.14\00:27:24.64
where God's will is thwarted
00:27:25.04\00:27:27.24
the cross also shows that
in the grand scheme of things
00:27:27.44\00:27:29.74
God's going to take
those and... He takes curses
00:27:29.94\00:27:32.28
and turns them into blessings.
'Cause the cross which becomes
00:27:32.48\00:27:34.78
the symbol of
God's will being thwarted
00:27:34.98\00:27:37.49
because of the
need to die for sin
00:27:37.69\00:27:39.79
also becomes the
mechanism through which
00:27:39.99\00:27:42.59
God conquers sin and allows
righteousness to triumph. Yes.
00:27:42.79\00:27:46.66
Yeah, so you have
the two sides of it.
00:27:46.86\00:27:49.30
This brings me back to some-
thing though real quick here.
00:27:49.50\00:27:51.77
You mentioned earlier
that would we even want
00:27:51.97\00:27:55.67
a detailed
explanation of the causal chain
00:27:55.87\00:27:59.27
for any particular
episode of suffering.
00:27:59.47\00:28:02.04
But now think of this:
somebody is suffering horribly.
00:28:03.21\00:28:06.11
They're lying in a hospital bed.
00:28:06.31\00:28:07.98
What is going to be the greater
healing and solace for them?
00:28:08.38\00:28:13.72
To sit by the bedside
and to give an explanation
00:28:13.92\00:28:18.89
for why precisely or
to sit by their bedside
00:28:19.09\00:28:22.16
and enter into solidarity and
sympathy with their suffering?
00:28:22.36\00:28:26.33
To cry with them; to
feel what they're feeling
00:28:26.53\00:28:28.94
and for them to look back
into an understanding face?
00:28:29.14\00:28:31.41
Is it that understanding
face that's going to be better
00:28:31.81\00:28:34.24
for them? Or you bust
into the hospital room
00:28:34.44\00:28:38.05
with a chalkboard and you just
start mapping out what happened
00:28:38.25\00:28:40.75
and why it
happened? Make a diagram...
00:28:40.95\00:28:42.88
I want to share something
with you that I think is really
00:28:43.08\00:28:45.29
powerful in relation to this and
it's a scripture that's found...
00:28:45.49\00:28:48.69
I'm sure we're familiar
with it. It's found in Zechariah
00:28:48.89\00:28:51.16
chapter 6. And basically
00:28:51.36\00:28:56.56
it's explaining in the
context of sin and suffering
00:28:56.77\00:29:01.37
that God and Christ
had this council of peace.
00:29:01.57\00:29:04.94
The prophecy is a prophecy of
00:29:05.34\00:29:08.68
God and Christ coming together.
00:29:08.88\00:29:10.88
I'm just going to
read it to you right here.
00:29:11.95\00:29:13.78
And the Lord of Hosts
is basically talking about
00:29:13.98\00:29:20.79
the branch, which is Christ.
00:29:20.99\00:29:22.89
And it says that He will
"build the temple of the Lord. "
00:29:23.09\00:29:26.03
And then it says: "Even He shall
build the temple of the Lord
00:29:26.23\00:29:29.53
and He will bear the glory
00:29:29.73\00:29:31.07
and He shall sit and
rule upon His throne.
00:29:31.20\00:29:33.34
And He shall be a
Priest upon His throne,
00:29:33.54\00:29:35.24
and the council of peace
shall be between them both. "
00:29:35.44\00:29:37.71
And that's
Zechariah chapter 6 verse 12.
00:29:38.11\00:29:40.48
And it's really interesting
because when you look up that
00:29:40.68\00:29:42.24
council of peace
and you read about it...
00:29:42.44\00:29:45.01
I'm just going to just
share with you a statement.
00:29:45.21\00:29:48.15
This one is in the Desire
of Ages on the life of Christ.
00:29:48.35\00:29:51.55
But it basically
says this council of peace
00:29:51.75\00:29:53.49
was God the Father and
God the Son coming together
00:29:53.69\00:29:56.79
before the creation of mankind -
00:29:56.99\00:29:59.39
before the
foundation of the world -
00:29:59.59\00:30:01.23
and basically saying
that if they choose to sin...
00:30:01.43\00:30:05.17
"We created them in Our image
in love, and that allows for
00:30:05.37\00:30:08.87
freedom of choice
and involves risk.
00:30:09.07\00:30:11.14
And if they choose... if
the devil actually takes them,
00:30:11.34\00:30:14.74
if Lucifer actually takes them
as the devil in this direction,
00:30:14.94\00:30:16.81
they choose to go in this direc-
tion, we are making a covenant
00:30:17.01\00:30:20.35
in a council of peace right now.
00:30:20.55\00:30:21.98
And so before this whole thing,
before we go forth in this
00:30:22.18\00:30:25.59
creation we have a Plan B
00:30:25.79\00:30:28.12
and Jesus, You are
going to become... "
00:30:28.32\00:30:31.66
The Son of God is
going to become Jesus Christ.
00:30:31.86\00:30:33.60
He's going to become
the One who takes away sin,
00:30:33.80\00:30:35.46
the Anointed One who
comes down to this planet.
00:30:35.66\00:30:37.93
And He's going to be the One
that reveals a full revelation
00:30:38.13\00:30:41.60
or manifestation of
what God is really like
00:30:41.80\00:30:43.37
and win the hearts back.
00:30:43.57\00:30:45.27
And what's really powerful
about this is this council.
00:30:45.47\00:30:48.71
Job went through this
terrible experience in his life.
00:30:49.18\00:30:52.35
I can really relate to that when
I was talking about my cancer
00:30:52.55\00:30:54.92
earlier and Job goes
through this whole thing
00:30:55.12\00:30:57.19
where you were talking
about he loses his family,
00:30:57.39\00:31:00.06
he loses his health, he
loses his wealth, his wife.
00:31:00.26\00:31:02.96
Everyone... all his
friends turn against him.
00:31:03.16\00:31:04.96
And even his friends...
they come and they sit.
00:31:05.16\00:31:06.80
For a week they sympathize
and then they start talking,
00:31:07.00\00:31:09.36
start trying to
explain all this stuff.
00:31:09.56\00:31:11.00
"Hey Job, you know
the reason why your son
00:31:11.20\00:31:13.34
and the reason why
you, x, y, and z... "
00:31:13.54\00:31:16.64
And finally Job says to
them, he says: "You guys
00:31:17.04\00:31:19.41
just need to be quiet. "
They're miserable comforters.
00:31:19.61\00:31:22.21
"You're worthless physicians. "
00:31:22.41\00:31:24.25
And THEN... and
then God shows up.
00:31:24.45\00:31:27.12
Because Job gets really
intense about his questions
00:31:27.52\00:31:30.35
and God shows up.
And what's interesting is
00:31:30.55\00:31:33.09
while we as human beings
00:31:33.29\00:31:36.32
aren't I don't think capable
of going through explanations
00:31:36.52\00:31:40.40
God is. God actually
steps into our situation
00:31:40.60\00:31:45.07
like you said, but He also...
00:31:45.27\00:31:46.63
He gives Job this
picture of Himself.
00:31:46.84\00:31:49.97
And the first thing
He asks Job is He says...
00:31:50.47\00:31:52.61
He says: "Job, who is this
00:31:52.81\00:31:55.74
who darkens council
without knowledge? "
00:31:55.94\00:31:59.21
Now that word council is
the very same word that's used
00:31:59.41\00:32:01.48
in Zechariah. He's talking about
this council of peace. Um-hmm.
00:32:01.68\00:32:04.02
He says: "You've
darkened this council of peace.
00:32:04.22\00:32:06.96
You've misunderstood
Me just a little bit here.
00:32:07.16\00:32:09.49
Where were you when I laid
the foundations of the world?
00:32:09.69\00:32:12.86
Tell Me if you
have understanding. "
00:32:13.06\00:32:14.96
Hmm. And then He goes through
the incredible revelation
00:32:15.16\00:32:18.93
of how God is with
every creature that suffers.
00:32:19.13\00:32:21.60
He knows the
horse, He knows the eagle.
00:32:21.80\00:32:23.34
He knows everything that's
happening on planet earth.
00:32:23.54\00:32:25.47
He is there. And
Job gets this picture
00:32:25.67\00:32:28.21
and he realizes: "Wow!
God has always been with me
00:32:28.41\00:32:31.48
through this whole
event. I've been on His heart.
00:32:31.68\00:32:34.65
And even before the
foundation of the world
00:32:34.85\00:32:37.02
He had this
council of peace. " Yeah.
00:32:37.22\00:32:38.82
"I misunderstood
this... I'm confused. "
00:32:39.02\00:32:40.96
The word
darkened means confused.
00:32:41.16\00:32:42.52
"I'm confused about this. "
00:32:42.72\00:32:44.13
And when you look at
Babylon - that whole process -
00:32:44.33\00:32:46.16
it's confusion. But
I think the world today
00:32:46.36\00:32:49.93
we are talking about this
as being a Bible question.
00:32:50.13\00:32:52.97
The world today is looking
for an answer to THIS question.
00:32:53.17\00:32:55.47
Um-hmm. And the gospel of
Christ answers this question.
00:32:55.67\00:32:58.37
God doesn't explain to
us all of the micro details
00:32:58.57\00:33:02.14
but He says: "I'm with
you in your suffering. "
00:33:02.34\00:33:04.28
"Job, I'm with
you in your suffering.
00:33:04.48\00:33:05.81
In the beginning
I knew about this
00:33:06.01\00:33:07.35
and I made a
plan to be with you. "
00:33:07.52\00:33:08.85
And He's also at the bedside
of those who are suffering.
00:33:08.88\00:33:10.62
God understands us. Um-hmm.
00:33:10.82\00:33:12.72
He understands what
we're going through.
00:33:12.92\00:33:14.26
I just thought as
you were saying that,
00:33:14.29\00:33:16.32
explaining that, James,
of this scripture in Psalm 56
00:33:16.52\00:33:19.29
that I love where David has been
going through a lot of suffering
00:33:19.49\00:33:23.77
and he's grappling with it
and he doesn't understand why.
00:33:23.97\00:33:26.13
It's just freaking him out
and he can't make sense of it.
00:33:26.33\00:33:29.90
And then it dawns on
him in chapter 56 of Psalms
00:33:30.11\00:33:33.54
and verse 8 he says to
God: "You have numbered
00:33:33.74\00:33:38.01
all my wanderings and you
put my tears in Your bottle.
00:33:38.21\00:33:42.22
Are they not all in
Your book? " Um-hmm.
00:33:42.62\00:33:45.15
So isn't that amazing?
00:33:46.05\00:33:48.69
That's a solidarity thing. Yeah.
00:33:48.89\00:33:50.23
Suddenly he
realizes - David realizes -
00:33:50.43\00:33:53.63
"Wait a minute... "
He'd been ranting and raving
00:33:53.83\00:33:56.00
about "God where are You? "
00:33:56.20\00:33:57.73
And "How come this is happening?
and why is that happening? "
00:33:57.93\00:34:00.17
And then it's as it were
that God is at the bedside
00:34:00.37\00:34:03.71
of this suffering
man and David realizes:
00:34:03.91\00:34:07.08
"Wait a minute! You have
actually been taking notes
00:34:07.28\00:34:12.15
of all my sorrows" and
very poetically he says:
00:34:12.35\00:34:16.69
"You've collected all
my tears in Your bottle. "
00:34:16.89\00:34:19.55
Um-hmm. What is that about?
00:34:19.75\00:34:21.56
That's a beautiful
poetic way of saying
00:34:21.76\00:34:25.69
that "Every single
thing, God, that touches me
00:34:25.89\00:34:29.30
and every tear that I've
shed through my suffering
00:34:29.50\00:34:32.03
You have actually
taken note of every tear
00:34:32.23\00:34:35.17
and You are with
me in my suffering. "
00:34:35.37\00:34:38.14
That's one of the most
beautiful texts in scripture
00:34:38.34\00:34:40.94
for me that just
shows that God...
00:34:41.14\00:34:43.35
You brought out,
Jeffrey, earlier trust.
00:34:43.75\00:34:46.58
We can't comprehend
all the causal chain
00:34:46.78\00:34:48.88
but what about trust.
00:34:49.08\00:34:50.42
And sometimes I think of a
statement that I heard somewhere
00:34:50.45\00:34:52.49
that when we can't trace God's
hand we can trust His heart.
00:34:52.69\00:34:58.46
Um-hmm. In other words, we don't
know why, why, why, why, why
00:34:58.66\00:35:01.06
but we do know what is going
on in God's essential character.
00:35:01.26\00:35:06.20
God is good. God is
LOVE so we know for sure
00:35:06.40\00:35:10.17
something that's NOT
true and that is that
00:35:10.37\00:35:12.44
it's not true that
God has orchestrated -
00:35:12.64\00:35:16.11
hmm - my pain and suffering
because God lacks essential
00:35:16.31\00:35:20.35
integrity. God HAS
essential integrity.
00:35:20.55\00:35:24.45
God IS love.
That's a solid, immoveable
00:35:24.65\00:35:28.42
reality, and you have to trust
that even when you can't trace
00:35:28.62\00:35:32.53
the causal chain.
That's the solidarity thing.
00:35:32.73\00:35:34.76
Jesus articulated that
in different ways, right?
00:35:34.96\00:35:37.63
He mentioned the
lilies of the field - um-hmm -
00:35:37.83\00:35:40.34
and how the Father
takes note of all that.
00:35:40.54\00:35:42.00
He says: "The very hairs of
your head are all numbered. "
00:35:42.20\00:35:44.51
There's a lot of different
ways that what you just read
00:35:44.71\00:35:47.01
in Psalms is I think
reaffirmed in the New Testament.
00:35:47.21\00:35:50.01
Jesus is
basically saying - um-hmm -
00:35:50.21\00:35:52.95
"I know what
you're going through. "
00:35:53.15\00:35:54.65
And going back to Calvary
- the main lesson of Calvary
00:35:54.85\00:35:58.75
is the fact that
Christ identifies - um-hmm -
00:35:58.95\00:36:01.06
with our suffering. So...
00:36:01.26\00:36:03.12
Well, in a similar
conversation we had talked about
00:36:03.32\00:36:06.13
each of our conversions and
what was the thing in Scripture
00:36:06.33\00:36:09.16
that sort of gave Scripture
at least initial credibility
00:36:09.36\00:36:12.67
in your own experience.
And at least in our three cases
00:36:12.87\00:36:15.74
not so much in
Jeffrey's so that came later
00:36:15.94\00:36:17.61
it had to do with
seeing a picture of God
00:36:17.81\00:36:19.57
that was compelling.
You know, love vs. power
00:36:19.77\00:36:23.21
and the God of
patience and longsuffering.
00:36:23.41\00:36:25.95
And in my case it
was... boiled down to Luke 19
00:36:26.15\00:36:28.55
where Jesus wept over the city.
00:36:28.75\00:36:30.62
And I tweeted oh,
probably a month ago now
00:36:31.02\00:36:34.26
that if all we had in Scripture
were these two verses...
00:36:34.42\00:36:37.93
New Testament...
If all we had was...
00:36:38.13\00:36:40.20
Two words? No...
these two texts. Oh.
00:36:40.40\00:36:43.26
Text number one: "In the
beginning was the Word. "
00:36:43.47\00:36:46.63
These three
texts. Jesus is the Word.
00:36:46.84\00:36:48.77
So "In the beginning was
the Word... " number one.
00:36:48.97\00:36:50.31
Number two: "The Word
became flesh. " Um-hmm.
00:36:50.44\00:36:52.54
And then number
three: "Jesus wept. "
00:36:52.94\00:36:55.78
If all we knew was that there
was a God, that He became flesh,
00:36:56.75\00:36:59.75
and He cried,
um-hmm, we would know enough
00:36:59.95\00:37:02.95
to trust Him. Wow! Because
I know what it is to cry.
00:37:03.15\00:37:06.29
I know what it is to
be lonely, to be hurt,
00:37:06.49\00:37:09.32
to be upset, to be frustrated,
to be in pain, to suffer.
00:37:09.52\00:37:13.70
And if there's a God in the
uni, if God possesses all power,
00:37:13.90\00:37:17.60
all resources of intellect,
strength... all of that,
00:37:18.67\00:37:22.54
and yet there's
still a vulnerability?
00:37:22.74\00:37:26.21
God is vulnerable? Well,
He couldn't be vulnerable
00:37:26.41\00:37:28.81
from any external thing
because He possesses all power.
00:37:29.01\00:37:31.81
Nothing. He must be
internally vulnerable.
00:37:32.01\00:37:36.75
He must be the kind of
person who would make Himself
00:37:36.95\00:37:40.82
subject to forces that
would otherwise have no right
00:37:41.02\00:37:43.69
to approach Him.
He becomes flesh.
00:37:43.89\00:37:48.20
He goes to the tomb
of Lazarus and weeps.
00:37:48.40\00:37:50.83
He goes to the city... the
hill overlooking Jerusalem.
00:37:51.03\00:37:54.84
Well He didn't
have to do that. No.
00:37:55.04\00:37:56.77
He's God, man. He
can be where He wants.
00:37:56.97\00:37:58.41
He can be doing what He
wants. So if all we knew
00:37:58.61\00:38:01.84
going back to the looking
in the eyes vs. the explanation
00:38:02.04\00:38:05.35
is that God cries. Yeah.
00:38:05.55\00:38:08.58
He's voluntarily
vulnerable. That's right.
00:38:09.48\00:38:12.59
Unlike us. We tend to
get ourselves into trouble
00:38:12.79\00:38:15.26
but often the vicissitudes
of life just smite us
00:38:15.46\00:38:18.76
and we're like: "Oh,
what happened? " Yeah.
00:38:18.96\00:38:20.36
And we would choose to
be out of that circumstance.
00:38:20.80\00:38:23.50
You know, you're diagnosed
with cancer. If there could be
00:38:23.70\00:38:25.20
the button in front of you
to be cancer free or to have...
00:38:25.40\00:38:27.70
you'd push the "I want to
be out of this circumstance. "
00:38:27.90\00:38:31.01
But God says: "Um,
I'll push the get in
00:38:31.21\00:38:35.24
to pain, vulnerability,
weeping button. " Wow!
00:38:35.44\00:38:39.15
I recently read
another author worded it
00:38:39.35\00:38:43.28
"We need a
Savior that can weep. "
00:38:43.49\00:38:45.32
Um-hmm. "We needed a
Savior that knew how to weep. "
00:38:45.52\00:38:47.96
When I wrote my first book and
it was coming down to the time.
00:38:48.16\00:38:51.79
I'd already
written much of the book
00:38:51.99\00:38:53.83
and we were really
struggling with the title.
00:38:54.03\00:38:55.40
And it's with some of
these very same issues.
00:38:55.80\00:38:58.10
You know, the
existence of suffering,
00:38:58.30\00:39:00.17
the existence of God, and
God as an omniscient being,
00:39:00.37\00:39:02.70
omnipotent being.
And we were wrestling.
00:39:02.90\00:39:05.41
We had several different titles
that neither myself nor the
00:39:05.61\00:39:07.48
publisher were
ever really happy.
00:39:07.68\00:39:09.14
And then just in a moment when
we were on a phone conference
00:39:09.61\00:39:12.55
this title: God In
Pain... I love that title!
00:39:12.75\00:39:16.65
came to me. That's
the God that we serve.
00:39:16.85\00:39:19.65
And when I asked a good friend
of ours, Clifford Goldstein,
00:39:20.06\00:39:22.12
to write the foreword he said:
"Why did you write the book?
00:39:22.32\00:39:25.03
All you needed to
write was the title. "
00:39:25.43\00:39:27.16
The title alone
encapsulates the essence
00:39:27.93\00:39:30.90
of the answer.
We're asking the question
00:39:31.30\00:39:33.40
"If God is so good, why
is there so much suffering? "
00:39:33.60\00:39:35.60
But whose capacity
for suffering is greater:
00:39:36.20\00:39:39.24
the finite creature
or the infinite Creator?
00:39:39.44\00:39:42.21
Um-hmm... um-hmm.
If we are suffering
00:39:42.41\00:39:45.28
and God has the ability
to give that causal chain,
00:39:45.48\00:39:47.98
His ability to
be at every funeral,
00:39:48.18\00:39:50.99
to be at every
rape, to be present.
00:39:51.19\00:39:53.49
Now, of course, that
introduces the question:
00:39:53.69\00:39:56.06
"Well why doesn't God just stop
it? Why doesn't He intervene? "
00:39:56.26\00:39:59.03
Or even worse,
why does He sometimes
00:39:59.23\00:40:01.76
and sometimes doesn't intervene?
00:40:01.96\00:40:04.27
Apparently arbitrarily.
You have to insert the word
00:40:04.47\00:40:07.90
apparently because, and I think
we have to come back to this
00:40:08.10\00:40:11.87
either in this conversation or
at some subsequent conversation
00:40:12.07\00:40:14.94
we have to ask the question:
"Why doesn't God whatever? "
00:40:15.14\00:40:19.95
Fill in the blank.
Yeah. Or "Why didn't God? "
00:40:20.15\00:40:22.35
Fill in the blank.
When that little cancer cell
00:40:22.85\00:40:24.85
came into James' thyroid
there and began to multiply
00:40:25.05\00:40:28.02
why didn't God? You
would have been none the wiser.
00:40:28.22\00:40:29.92
Why didn't He just come in and
just eviscerate that cancer cell
00:40:30.13\00:40:32.96
and all is good. Yeah. I
mean, that's a real question.
00:40:33.16\00:40:36.26
It's a very real question.
00:40:36.77\00:40:38.53
We have to take a
break although these are...
00:40:38.93\00:40:42.24
I don't know if you've noticed
but just in this conversation
00:40:42.44\00:40:45.61
there's almost a
solemn tone - heaviness -
00:40:45.81\00:40:49.71
that's come over us
because we realize that
00:40:49.91\00:40:52.61
we're dealing with something
that is in fact very difficult.
00:40:52.81\00:40:57.25
There are people probably
who are sitting in on this
00:40:57.45\00:41:00.26
conversation right
now via the television
00:41:00.46\00:41:02.62
and I can imagine there are
tears coming to some people's
00:41:03.02\00:41:06.80
eyes because "If you only
knew" somebody could say to us.
00:41:07.00\00:41:10.33
"If you ONLY knew
what happened to me. " Yes.
00:41:10.53\00:41:14.50
We should focus also on
some of the things we DO know.
00:41:14.70\00:41:17.87
For me at least that's
why it's become so solemn
00:41:18.91\00:41:21.08
'cause of some of
those things we DO know.
00:41:21.28\00:41:22.84
Yeah we do. So
let's just keep on
00:41:23.04\00:41:25.81
talking about it when we
come back after the break.
00:41:26.01\00:41:27.62
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00:41:35.39\00:41:37.96
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00:41:38.16\00:41:40.83
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00:41:41.03\00:41:43.30
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00:42:16.97\00:42:19.47
So we're tackling pretty
much the biggest question
00:42:24.74\00:42:28.01
imaginable, and
I'm of the opinion
00:42:28.21\00:42:31.71
that this is...
can I say it this way?
00:42:31.91\00:42:34.72
it's the most naturally
occurring theological question.
00:42:34.92\00:42:38.79
Um-hmm. It doesn't matter if you
were raised in a Christian home
00:42:38.99\00:42:41.56
or a Buddhist
home or a Muslim home
00:42:41.76\00:42:44.89
or an atheist home,
everybody encounters suffering
00:42:45.09\00:42:47.96
and everybody at
some point in their life
00:42:48.16\00:42:50.80
is going to ask
the why question.
00:42:51.00\00:42:52.93
Even if you somehow get
through the world unscathed
00:42:53.13\00:42:58.84
you're eventually going to
grow old and be on a death bed.
00:42:59.04\00:43:01.78
And everybody at some
point is faced with the reality
00:43:02.18\00:43:05.28
of pain and suffering.
00:43:05.68\00:43:07.42
And at that point human beings
naturally ask the question
00:43:07.62\00:43:10.92
"Why is this happening? "
And the bigger question is:
00:43:11.12\00:43:14.36
"Why is the world
like this at all? " Um-hmm.
00:43:14.56\00:43:16.29
"Why is the world
like this at all? "
00:43:16.49\00:43:19.03
Now in our
discussion we've confessed
00:43:19.43\00:43:22.83
that we're ignorant and
we think everybody's ignorant
00:43:23.03\00:43:26.60
regarding the details
of every single episode
00:43:26.80\00:43:30.81
of suffering and why
that happened or that happened
00:43:31.01\00:43:33.17
or that happened. But
we do believe very strongly
00:43:33.38\00:43:36.01
that there are
some big principles
00:43:36.75\00:43:40.02
that very clearly
give us guidance to know
00:43:40.22\00:43:42.98
why bad things happen on
the more big-picture level.
00:43:43.18\00:43:48.92
God created a
particular kind of world.
00:43:49.32\00:43:51.63
God out of His character of love
00:43:52.03\00:43:56.33
created a world in
which created beings
00:43:56.53\00:44:00.30
would have the potential to
love like God loves. Um-hmm.
00:44:00.50\00:44:02.57
Having created
that kind of world
00:44:02.77\00:44:04.61
there had to be something
in place as the basic mechanism
00:44:04.81\00:44:08.91
of human thought and behavior,
and that's freedom. Um-hmm.
00:44:09.11\00:44:13.01
That freedom which
makes love possible
00:44:13.21\00:44:15.92
also makes evil
possible, suffering possible.
00:44:16.12\00:44:20.26
Right. There's that big risk.
00:44:20.46\00:44:22.12
But with those principles
I think we can safely say
00:44:22.32\00:44:27.03
that it's possible
for God to be exonerated
00:44:27.43\00:44:31.30
in our basic
theological picture.
00:44:31.70\00:44:34.04
We don't have to hate God.
00:44:34.24\00:44:35.57
In fact, as soon as you
believe in the love/freedom risk
00:44:35.67\00:44:39.17
equation you don't
have to hate anybody.
00:44:39.37\00:44:42.21
You can actually
be in a frame of mind
00:44:42.61\00:44:46.78
where at least you
understand - um-hmm - that God
00:44:47.28\00:44:51.32
chose the best
possible situation
00:44:51.52\00:44:55.52
for creating the
best possible world.
00:44:55.72\00:44:58.19
Now we live in that world.
00:44:58.39\00:44:59.76
I like the way that it's
sometimes said that this world
00:44:59.96\00:45:02.56
is not the best
possible world but it is the way
00:45:02.76\00:45:05.53
to the best possible
world. Yeah, that's right.
00:45:05.73\00:45:07.50
If you think of it, if
you could have an empty canvas
00:45:07.70\00:45:10.14
and come up with
the best dynamics,
00:45:10.34\00:45:12.51
wouldn't you do the
very thing that God did?
00:45:12.71\00:45:16.91
Yeah. People would
do nothing different.
00:45:17.11\00:45:20.22
To use the illustration that you
gave earlier when we were saying
00:45:20.42\00:45:23.05
that the way to make sure your
teenage children never become
00:45:23.25\00:45:25.59
something other than you'd
hoped or your grown children
00:45:25.79\00:45:28.52
is to never have them.
00:45:28.72\00:45:30.09
And you said... your
illustration was basically:
00:45:30.29\00:45:32.83
"but the risk was
worth it. " Right.
00:45:33.23\00:45:35.13
What about this? How
do you feel about this?
00:45:35.53\00:45:37.87
We have the tragedy of suicide.
00:45:38.07\00:45:39.87
But isn't the fact...
Doesn't the fact that we refrain
00:45:40.07\00:45:44.31
from suicide on a daily basis
00:45:44.51\00:45:46.68
in and of itself demonstrate
that we think it's worth
00:45:46.88\00:45:50.58
the risk waking up
tomorrow morning? Yeah.
00:45:50.78\00:45:52.61
We know good and well
there could be a terrible thing
00:45:52.81\00:45:55.48
in store for us tomorrow. The
minute I walk out my front door,
00:45:55.68\00:45:58.32
get into my car,
and go into the world -
00:45:58.52\00:46:00.42
right - I'm entering
into a million different
00:46:00.62\00:46:04.86
varieties of risk. Um-hmm.
But the fact that I do not
00:46:05.06\00:46:08.90
commit suicide means
it's worth the risk of
00:46:09.10\00:46:12.77
staying alive - yeah -
and potentially experiencing
00:46:12.97\00:46:16.97
you know the benefits
of freedom and love and...
00:46:17.17\00:46:20.94
Or continually confessing
that the risk is worth it
00:46:21.14\00:46:24.35
by getting
married, by having children.
00:46:24.55\00:46:26.38
By even entering into
a friendship with anybody
00:46:26.58\00:46:29.32
and not just
locking ourselves away
00:46:29.52\00:46:31.19
in a room and never coming
out and having pizzas delivered
00:46:31.39\00:46:33.72
under the door. We're
continually confessing
00:46:33.92\00:46:36.96
that the up side is worth
the risk of the down side.
00:46:37.36\00:46:41.30
I mean, just all the time.
00:46:41.50\00:46:44.00
C. S. Lewis went through
this process of reasoning
00:46:44.40\00:46:46.74
where he says to
the person who says
00:46:46.94\00:46:50.74
"Why did God create
me in the first place
00:46:51.14\00:46:55.11
if I'm going to
experience suffering?
00:46:55.31\00:46:57.61
It's not worth it" Lewis
responds "Not worth it to who? "
00:46:57.81\00:47:02.98
The idea is that
God above and beyond
00:47:03.92\00:47:07.66
our processing
thought it was worth it
00:47:07.86\00:47:11.26
to perhaps have the possibility
00:47:11.46\00:47:15.30
where you could live forever
in a state of eternal bliss.
00:47:15.50\00:47:19.60
Um-hmm. He thought
the risk was worth it.
00:47:19.80\00:47:21.47
And who are we to argue back
00:47:21.87\00:47:23.71
to the One who
made things to operate?
00:47:23.91\00:47:26.21
And the One who is the source
from which all of our wisdom
00:47:26.41\00:47:30.61
comes. Right... where all
of our reasoning comes from.
00:47:30.81\00:47:32.31
And then he says the analogy
that that arguing against
00:47:32.51\00:47:35.08
the very source of
your ability to argue
00:47:35.28\00:47:37.79
would be like cutting off the
very branch you're sitting on.
00:47:37.99\00:47:40.56
Remember that statement? Of
course. Yeah, it's a great one.
00:47:40.76\00:47:42.62
So if God considered
it worth the risk then
00:47:42.82\00:47:45.16
it probably was worth the risk.
00:47:45.36\00:47:47.30
OK, so are there any scriptures
that we could wrap around
00:47:47.50\00:47:51.93
the idea of love, freedom, risk?
00:47:52.13\00:47:56.67
The basic answer to
the question we're giving
00:47:56.87\00:47:58.87
is there scripture
that bears that out?
00:47:59.07\00:48:01.21
I think there's
a lot of scripture.
00:48:02.41\00:48:03.75
I think the whole tenor
of scripture bears that out.
00:48:03.78\00:48:06.11
The entire canon of Scripture
- Old and New Testaments -
00:48:06.31\00:48:09.35
are written against
the backdrop of love,
00:48:09.55\00:48:12.72
freedom, risk. And I always
add a fourth element to that.
00:48:12.92\00:48:16.42
Love requires
freedom; freedom involves risk;
00:48:16.62\00:48:18.23
risk entails responsibility;
00:48:18.43\00:48:19.76
and responsibility is that
which makes for moral growth.
00:48:19.83\00:48:25.30
OK... so just
imagine the situation.
00:48:26.03\00:48:27.77
How could... OK,
I have two children:
00:48:27.97\00:48:29.90
an 11-year-old
and a 13-year old.
00:48:30.11\00:48:32.31
And I am seeking to
instill in them values
00:48:32.51\00:48:35.94
that will help them
to make wise choices,
00:48:36.14\00:48:38.65
moral choices,
judicious choices.
00:48:38.85\00:48:42.08
I want them to be good people,
wonderful people, good kids.
00:48:42.28\00:48:45.72
And they are, throughout
their whole day at school
00:48:45.92\00:48:49.26
and then they come home. They're
hanging out with their friends.
00:48:49.46\00:48:51.09
They are continually faced
- as we all are, but I'm just
00:48:51.29\00:48:53.40
using the
illustration of children here -
00:48:53.60\00:48:55.00
with a series of
choices. And in those choices
00:48:55.93\00:48:59.33
they are faced with morally
superior and morally inferior
00:48:59.53\00:49:02.64
choices in the way
that they treat people,
00:49:02.84\00:49:04.74
the way that they
treat their classmates,
00:49:04.94\00:49:06.27
the way that they
respond to their teacher,
00:49:06.31\00:49:07.64
whether or not to be
honest with their parents.
00:49:07.68\00:49:09.01
It's just easy when
we talk about children.
00:49:09.31\00:49:11.15
So they're faced continually
with: "OK, should I be honest
00:49:11.35\00:49:14.22
with dad or should I
try to cover that up? "
00:49:14.42\00:49:16.02
"Should I make fun of that
kid because all my friends are
00:49:16.22\00:49:18.82
or should I reach
out to him and be kind? "
00:49:19.02\00:49:20.59
They are continually
faced... And what I'm saying
00:49:20.79\00:49:22.96
to my boys is: "Boys, you
will never grow and become
00:49:23.16\00:49:27.06
the person that you
are capable of being
00:49:27.26\00:49:29.20
if you're not given the
opportunity to make choices
00:49:29.40\00:49:33.54
in which there are actual
benefits from making the right
00:49:33.74\00:49:36.44
choice and actual consequences
for making the wrong choice. "
00:49:36.64\00:49:39.67
The only way to grow is
to have a matrix in which
00:49:40.08\00:49:44.08
moral choices with actual
consequences are possible.
00:49:44.28\00:49:48.02
Um-hmm. You follow that? Yeah!
00:49:48.22\00:49:50.25
So in that sense,
how would God ever get
00:49:50.45\00:49:52.85
beings like us - human beings -
00:49:53.05\00:49:55.39
to the place where we would
see the consequences of sin?
00:49:55.59\00:49:59.59
The consequences of
selfishness? The consequences of
00:49:59.79\00:50:02.46
all of the bad choices
that we make unless He created
00:50:02.66\00:50:05.40
an environment in which
that could actually take place.
00:50:05.60\00:50:09.20
We become better
people, more godly people,
00:50:09.40\00:50:12.71
more loving people,
more trusting people,
00:50:12.91\00:50:14.64
more trustworthy
people as we make decisions
00:50:14.84\00:50:18.38
that are fraught
with consequences.
00:50:18.58\00:50:20.95
And without it,
growth can't occur!
00:50:21.35\00:50:23.52
You know, I really... I
really like that in this sense.
00:50:23.72\00:50:26.09
And I'm just going to
go back to the illustration
00:50:26.29\00:50:28.09
that I experienced. Recently
I was just sitting with some
00:50:28.29\00:50:31.29
friends. We were talking
together about spiritual things
00:50:31.49\00:50:34.03
and one of them was
talking about some challenges
00:50:34.23\00:50:37.17
they were having at work
00:50:37.37\00:50:38.70
and counseling they were getting
because of the difficulty
00:50:38.83\00:50:41.60
they were going
through and how the counselor
00:50:41.80\00:50:44.11
was basically telling them
that they should just kind of...
00:50:44.31\00:50:47.58
I don't know how to say
this; I want to say it carefully
00:50:47.78\00:50:51.05
because the way it came across
was just like this counselor
00:50:51.25\00:50:54.22
was basically saying: "You know,
that person that's annoying you
00:50:54.42\00:50:56.82
in your life you just
need to consider that person
00:50:57.02\00:50:59.09
a non person and that's the
way you'll be able to deal with
00:50:59.29\00:51:01.72
this situation. " A
professional counselor? Yeah.
00:51:01.92\00:51:03.93
"You just consider
that person a non person
00:51:04.13\00:51:05.49
and that's the way you'll
be able to deal with it. "
00:51:05.69\00:51:07.26
I won't tell you the
word but it was pretty bad.
00:51:09.66\00:51:12.17
So we're talking about
this and I'm taking it in
00:51:12.37\00:51:14.64
and I'm
realizing that this person
00:51:14.84\00:51:16.57
that's getting the counseling
00:51:16.77\00:51:18.11
is really going through some
struggles with this individual.
00:51:18.14\00:51:21.54
And so for them it
was a great relief.
00:51:21.74\00:51:24.18
And so now I'm really
struggling because I'm thinking
00:51:24.38\00:51:26.85
"OK, I've gotta
pray about this. "
00:51:27.05\00:51:28.38
In a sense there's something
inside of me that wants to say
00:51:28.48\00:51:32.05
"Yeah, how dare that
person treat you this way!
00:51:32.25\00:51:35.12
I agree with that counselor...
00:51:35.32\00:51:36.73
that's the way you
need to treat that person. "
00:51:36.93\00:51:38.36
That's my natural tendency.
But then all of a sudden
00:51:38.56\00:51:40.63
there's a thing that kicks
in and I just started talking
00:51:40.83\00:51:45.30
about the fact that:
"You know what? The reason why
00:51:45.50\00:51:48.14
that person treats you that
way is because you are loving,
00:51:48.34\00:51:50.87
you are kind,
you are supportive.
00:51:51.07\00:51:53.31
You are a Christian
through and through.
00:51:53.51\00:51:55.71
That's the kind
of person you are.
00:51:55.91\00:51:57.58
And that person is treating
you that way because they either
00:51:57.78\00:52:00.75
want that and they
don't know how to get it
00:52:00.95\00:52:02.98
or they're jealous of it
and they want to destroy it. "
00:52:03.18\00:52:05.19
I said: "Either way, the goal
00:52:05.39\00:52:08.52
for that person
and the goal for you...
00:52:08.72\00:52:10.49
the goal for you I should
say... is you don't want to
00:52:10.69\00:52:13.33
treat them as a non
person. You want to hold on
00:52:13.53\00:52:16.03
to the person that
you are in Jesus Christ.
00:52:16.23\00:52:17.97
You want to hold on
to the principles of love
00:52:18.17\00:52:20.04
that make you who you are. "
00:52:20.24\00:52:21.57
And I said... because this
person was getting in the way
00:52:21.74\00:52:24.31
of their academic future...
I said: "That is insignificant
00:52:24.51\00:52:28.78
in comparison to what God
has made you and the person that
00:52:28.98\00:52:31.78
you are. And
that's the real issue.
00:52:31.98\00:52:33.82
It doesn't matter if you
have degrees all the way down
00:52:34.02\00:52:35.45
your arm as long as you hold
on to the person that you are.
00:52:35.65\00:52:38.85
That the loving, Christ-like,
forgiving, supportive person:
00:52:39.05\00:52:42.89
that is going to be the goal. "
00:52:43.09\00:52:44.43
And it was just like: "Yes! "
00:52:44.46\00:52:45.79
And to me, when
you're talking about reward
00:52:45.89\00:52:47.40
yeah, we can talk
about on a temporal level,
00:52:47.60\00:52:48.93
we can talk about... but
that is the ultimate reward.
00:52:49.00\00:52:51.53
Because after we
were finished talking
00:52:51.73\00:52:54.30
and we prayed together
they were just like this was it.
00:52:54.50\00:52:56.94
You could just tell
there was peace, there was joy,
00:52:57.14\00:52:59.47
there was hope.
These are the rewards:
00:52:59.67\00:53:01.01
peace, joy, hope. It's not
so much even temporal reward.
00:53:01.04\00:53:04.61
It's this whole idea and
I think we see this even in
00:53:04.81\00:53:06.95
Enoch - I won't go into the
details - but this whole idea
00:53:07.15\00:53:08.95
even if there wasn't eternal
life, even if there wasn't
00:53:09.15\00:53:11.32
eternity beyond this, the
kingdom of God is within you.
00:53:11.52\00:53:14.42
It's the peace, the joy, and
the hope that we have right here
00:53:14.62\00:53:17.19
on this earth - there you
go - in dealing with the sin,
00:53:17.39\00:53:19.16
in dealing with the evil,
in dealing with the situations
00:53:19.36\00:53:21.30
that we're faced with here.
00:53:21.50\00:53:22.83
I'd say it like this: too often,
in keeping with that thinking
00:53:22.90\00:53:26.94
there, too often
we think of heaven...
00:53:27.14\00:53:28.47
This is going way back
to our first conversation
00:53:28.60\00:53:31.44
that we had about how the
evangelist said to your mom
00:53:31.64\00:53:33.98
"The Bible says it; there-
fore you should believe it. "
00:53:34.18\00:53:35.78
We present scripture
almost too much in a reward
00:53:35.98\00:53:40.75
"Do this and you'll
get this and if you don't
00:53:40.95\00:53:42.62
then you won't. "
OK... so on that note
00:53:42.82\00:53:44.59
God is going to
take everybody to heaven.
00:53:45.49\00:53:48.19
God is going to give
everyone eternal life
00:53:48.39\00:53:50.53
who would be happy
in that circumstance.
00:53:51.03\00:53:54.36
And when you think about
it that way that's so powerful
00:53:54.76\00:53:57.23
because what God
is basically saying is
00:53:57.43\00:53:59.17
"You were given the
opportunity to become the person
00:53:59.37\00:54:02.17
that I have created you to be. "
00:54:02.37\00:54:03.71
I would say it even this way: We
are each given the opportunity
00:54:03.74\00:54:06.21
to be fully human.
There are people in the world
00:54:06.41\00:54:09.71
who are so devoid of
compassion, of kindness
00:54:09.91\00:54:12.85
they have polluted their minds
00:54:13.05\00:54:14.58
and they literally
are more like beasts.
00:54:14.78\00:54:17.49
You mentioned earlier, Ty, that
there's gotta be more to life
00:54:17.69\00:54:20.49
than just
eating and reproducing.
00:54:20.69\00:54:22.02
Well, there are people
that that is the whole of life
00:54:22.06\00:54:26.19
AND there's a cruelty
associated with it because
00:54:26.39\00:54:29.10
"If you get in my
way, you will be smashed. "
00:54:29.30\00:54:31.87
Um-hmm. This whole way that...
00:54:32.07\00:54:33.94
there are people that
are just brute beasts.
00:54:34.14\00:54:36.20
They actually are
humans made in the image of God
00:54:36.40\00:54:38.41
but by choices that they have
made they've made their choices
00:54:38.61\00:54:41.64
and now their
choices have made them.
00:54:41.84\00:54:43.28
And these people would
not be... They've not made
00:54:43.68\00:54:47.02
the choices that could
create them, turn them into
00:54:47.22\00:54:51.15
the kinds of people that would
be happy in the presence of God
00:54:51.35\00:54:53.46
for eternity. Yeah. So
this isn't God arbitrarily
00:54:53.66\00:54:55.86
withholding from them
something that they could
00:54:56.06\00:55:00.13
other... They can't help it
because they have incapacitated
00:55:00.33\00:55:04.37
themselves. When we
think about it that way
00:55:04.57\00:55:06.17
we're asking the question:
Why is there so much suffering?
00:55:07.00\00:55:09.20
Well, there's a lot of
ways to answer that question.
00:55:09.40\00:55:12.67
But at the bottom-most level
of the answer to that question
00:55:13.38\00:55:16.61
is freedom. Yeah.
00:55:16.81\00:55:19.41
Freedom. People
have made choices.
00:55:19.61\00:55:22.02
Those impact upon us.
They cause sometimes happiness,
00:55:22.22\00:55:26.49
sometimes joy, sometimes
bliss, and sometimes pain.
00:55:26.69\00:55:29.09
Now again, then there is
the whole dimension beyond.
00:55:29.49\00:55:31.49
There's natural
disasters and there's cancers
00:55:31.69\00:55:34.36
and there's other things
that are not directly traceable
00:55:34.56\00:55:37.00
to a choice made by a
person to stab me with a knife
00:55:37.20\00:55:40.94
or hold a gun to
my head or whatever.
00:55:41.10\00:55:42.70
And that's where we say:
"Even if we knew the causal
00:55:43.41\00:55:46.78
chain... " Right. But we
know it all goes back to sin.
00:55:46.98\00:55:51.41
We know it all does go
back to the first causal source.
00:55:51.61\00:55:53.58
We know it all does go
back to the choice we make.
00:55:53.78\00:55:56.08
Someone else has... that
Jesus says in John chapter 12
00:55:56.28\00:55:58.85
stepped in as the prince of
this world, and in John 10:10
00:55:59.05\00:56:02.09
um-hmm - Jesus says:
"He... " that person...
00:56:02.29\00:56:05.99
has come to do nothing but
kill, steal, and destroy. "
00:56:06.19\00:56:08.43
"And I have come
that they might have life
00:56:08.63\00:56:10.40
and they might have
it more abundantly. "
00:56:10.60\00:56:11.93
I read one time that all
of life for every individual
00:56:11.97\00:56:18.51
is going to finally boil down
00:56:18.91\00:56:21.54
to either the
individual saying to God
00:56:21.94\00:56:27.68
"Thy will be done"
00:56:27.88\00:56:29.32
or God saying to the individual
00:56:29.52\00:56:32.15
"Thy will be done.
" Yeah, that's Lewis.
00:56:32.55\00:56:34.69
Ultimately every human being
is going to be in a position
00:56:34.89\00:56:39.03
where their free will...
00:56:39.43\00:56:41.76
their free will is
the ultimate factor
00:56:42.16\00:56:46.57
that determines the
kind of person they became
00:56:46.77\00:56:50.01
and their
ultimate destiny. Um-hmm.
00:56:50.21\00:56:52.01
And human free
will by God's choice...
00:56:52.91\00:56:55.68
not because God is weak
00:56:55.88\00:56:57.21
but by God's
design... human free will
00:56:57.38\00:57:01.28
can trump the
ultimate will of God. Wow!
00:57:01.48\00:57:04.75
God DOES WANT me and you
and everyone at this table
00:57:04.95\00:57:07.86
and everyone in the world
00:57:08.06\00:57:10.19
to ultimately
be eternally saved.
00:57:10.39\00:57:13.09
Some people simply won't be.
00:57:13.86\00:57:15.36
Not because God
didn't want them to be
00:57:15.56\00:57:17.17
but because they aligned their
will against the will of God.
00:57:17.37\00:57:20.97
And God is just. This is
almost a trite way of saying it
00:57:21.17\00:57:24.34
but God is just the
perfect gentleman enough
00:57:24.54\00:57:28.58
to say:
"Anybody... " as you said...
00:57:28.98\00:57:32.88
"who would be happy for
eternity in this kind of kingdom
00:57:33.08\00:57:38.29
will be there. "
Is welcome. Yeah.
00:57:38.49\00:57:40.49
Anybody can
come... everybody can come.
00:57:40.69\00:57:42.72
All you have to do
00:57:42.92\00:57:46.29
is want to be here in
this kind of environment,
00:57:46.49\00:57:50.03
this kind of kingdom.
And for God to force others
00:57:50.23\00:57:52.30
into his kingdom,
they would be miserable
00:57:52.50\00:57:54.64
throughout the
ceaseless ages of eternity.
00:57:54.84\00:57:56.24
So that would in
essence be cruel.
00:57:56.44\00:57:58.21
It would be cruel.
00:57:58.41\00:57:59.74
Yeah. That would be
God basically saying
00:57:59.77\00:58:03.48
"Everything in you is
contrary to everything in Me
00:58:03.68\00:58:09.08
but I'm going to force you to
be in a room with Me forever. "
00:58:09.28\00:58:11.35
You know what I'm saying?
00:58:12.39\00:58:13.72
I know what you're saying. I
mean: "You're going to have to
00:58:13.76\00:58:16.22
look at Me and be with Me
00:58:16.42\00:58:18.63
forever in this
space and never escape
00:58:18.83\00:58:21.56
and you hate it but I'm
going to force you to do it. "
00:58:22.06\00:58:26.53
It's like being forced to
emigrate into some country
00:58:26.74\00:58:30.47
where... dictator-run regime...
00:58:30.67\00:58:33.24
and every ideal and
value of that country
00:58:33.44\00:58:35.74
you despise so you're forced
to be a citizen of that country.
00:58:35.94\00:58:38.91
And of course the illustration
is not perfect there
00:58:39.11\00:58:41.48
because God is not a dictator.
But many people think of God
00:58:41.68\00:58:45.39
in just that way.
That's the point... yeah.
00:58:45.59\00:58:47.32
God is anything BUT. They
would be miserable because
00:58:47.52\00:58:50.69
of the perception. The
most foundational value
00:58:50.89\00:58:53.40
in the universe is freedom.
00:58:53.60\00:58:55.60
Yeah. This is God's highest will
00:58:55.80\00:58:58.33
for every being is
to be free. Um-hmm.
00:58:58.53\00:59:01.27
The problem is that the things
that we too often choose...
00:59:01.47\00:59:04.11
that we choose... the things
that we think will bring freedom
00:59:04.31\00:59:08.38
actually end up enslaving us.
00:59:08.58\00:59:09.98
And Jesus came that we
might... might be free.
00:59:10.18\00:59:14.02
That's the bottom line
00:59:14.22\00:59:15.55
and that's the point
on which we have to close
00:59:15.75\00:59:18.65
because our time is up.
00:59:18.85\00:59:20.19