So here we are back again
in part 2 of a 13 part series
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that is covering,
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"Hard or Difficult
Questions for God."
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And we talked about
the existence of God
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in our first session together,
gave a lot of powerful,
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I think personal experience
as well as intellectual,
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in thoughts, insights
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that I think
were compelling to me.
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Now there are
listeners, I don't know.
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And now we're going to be
looking at our second segment.
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We're going to be
looking at the question,
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"Is the Bible the Word of God?"
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And we're going to be looking
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at some of the reasons for that.
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I jotted them down
here, as Ty and I were taking
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or I was taking
some notes from him.
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Historical prophetic,
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there's a lot
philosophical and experimental.
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These are some of the
aspects or the reasons
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that we look at in
relation to the Word of God,
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and can we
trust the Word of God,
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is the word of God
something that we can look to,
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and believe in and accept,
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and allow it to have
a place in our lives.
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We can begin by
just asking the question,
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"Does it even matter?"
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Because increasingly,
in the world we live in,
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a lot of people don't care
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whether or not the
Bible is the Word of God,
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whether or not it's
an authoritative text.
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I personally think
that it is important,
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but I think there's a
reason or a lot of reasons.
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But I think there's
one prominent reason
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why so many
people in our culture
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are pushing back from the Bible.
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I think that the Bible
has been misrepresented by us.
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By us, I mean,
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people who do believe
that is the Word of God.
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Oftentimes, we've used the Bible
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or we have postured
ourselves with Bible in hand,
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in kind of a top down
authoritarian approach.
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The Bible says,
therefore, you ought to believe,
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rather than taking the scripture
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for what it really is,
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and it's an unfolding
story that is true to reality,
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as we
experienced reality in life.
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What I mean by that is this.
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I was raised in a
very secular environment,
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there was no Christianity,
there was no belief in God,
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nothing like that.
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And then when my mom
began to believe in God,
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and she became a Christian,
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the first thing that
she did was she put up
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a Christian evangelist,
put him up to converting me.
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While my mom and I were
from different generations,
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for my mom, even
though she was not a believer,
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the Bible had kind of
a sacred sense to her,
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even though she
had never read it.
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She was raised in a generation,
where if the evangelist said,
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the Bible says, she'd say,
"Oh, wow, the Bible says that?"
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But then she put
this evangelist up,
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she was saying
similar things to me.
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And he said,
you know, young man,
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the Bible says, and
my natural response,
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I wasn't
intentionally irreverent,
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it was just that the
Bible meant nothing to me.
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Nothing.
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So in my mind, the given wasn't
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that the Bible is authoritative,
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therefore, I should respond.
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To me, it was on the
level of other literature.
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I associated it with Shakespeare
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and the Greek myths.
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And to me, it was a book.
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So when the
evangelist said, the Bible says,
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and he was
expecting a similar response
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that he got from my
mom, I was like, "And..."
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And what follows from that.
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What do you
mean, the Bible says.
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It was kind of the Bible says
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that I believe in
that settles it for me.
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And my natural
response would be,
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"Well, it doesn't
settle it for me?"
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Because the Bible
didn't already have a...
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It didn't have any traction.
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No, it didn't have any traction.
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So I think increasingly,
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we need to answer the question
is the Bible the Word of God?
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Not so much from
the standpoint of...
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For example, imagine
somebody saying to you,
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the Bible is the Word of God,
to which they respond and say,
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"How do you know that?"
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To which you
respond, "Because it says so."
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That's called
circular reasoning.
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The Bible is the Word of God
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because it says that
it's the Word of God,
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or is there if we open
it are there good reasons,
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in the text itself,
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to persuade us
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that it is what it claims to be,
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and should we
examine those reasons.
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I love what you're saying there.
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And I love the
fact that you're saying
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that in some significant way,
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it's believers
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that are to blame
for the misapprehension,
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a larger misapprehension
in culture, not entirely.
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It's not like we, you know,
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they're not
completely adjudicated
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of their responsibility,
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because God has a
claim on everybody's life.
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However, there is
certainly a sense in which we,
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to some degree as believers
have misrepresented the text.
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I look at my own preaching,
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I've been a
minister now for 17 years,
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a pastor and I think
of my early ministry,
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it was very much
as you would say,
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as you were describing them.
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The first, or I would say,
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six or seven
years of my ministry
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was very factual.
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The Bible says this, therefore,
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you just expect it
to elicit a response,
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because you said that
the Bible says that...
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And does for some people.
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And it does, and it does,
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particularly as you
said, the older generation,
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because the Bible does hold
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a sacred hallowed
place in our culture.
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You know, the president
puts his hand on the Bible
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or in a court of law.
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So there is this sense in
which it's regarded by many,
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and particularly of
the older generation
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as possessing a
sacred place and culture.
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However, I think
there's another sense
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in which we've
represented Scripture,
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and that is that
we come to Scripture,
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treating it and this is
similar to what you're saying,
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but there's a slight variation,
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we treat Scripture like
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it contains the
answers to a theology quiz.
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Like it's a creed or something.
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Well, just like, okay, so
what happens when you die?
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Let's find that answer.
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And what you know,
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what was the third
king of whatever, Israel?
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And then it's like that,
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and certainly there
are answers in there...
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Encyclopedia,
that's great, exactly.
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What you said is so true
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that the Scripture
presents a narrative,
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a revealing and an
unfolding a story of who God is.
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And what we're
supposed to do is not find,
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and I wouldn't want to
be misunderstood on this.
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We're not supposed to
find the Bible so compelling
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as we are supposed
to find the character
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that the Bible is
telling us about compelling.
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And those answers
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to those questions
that you're saying,
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what happens when
we die this or that,
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you encountered those answers...
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In the story. In the
context of the story.
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But too many people,
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they just have the
answers without the story.
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Right.
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That's why I like the way
the Bible describes itself
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as the Word.
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I just want to
say in this context
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that the Bible
describes itself as the Word
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and that means
that it is manifest
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in not only in an
intellectual outline of facts,
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encyclopedia, you know,
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we've got this,
but it's manifest in,
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according to John
Chapter 1 in a person.
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So we get all mixed up
about all of this information,
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a person
actually becomes the Word.
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I like this
little building block.
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A person actually
becomes the Word, I guess.
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And this person
that becomes the Word,
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he's manifest among
us, and he clarifies now,
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what this book
is really all about.
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This book is
really all about a person,
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it's all about the life journey,
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it's all about a story,
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it's all about this
individual that we call God.
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Yeah, I like the
point you're making,
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because that's really
what I was trying to get at.
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And you pointed
us to John Chapter 1,
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where it says,
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"In the beginning was the
Word and the Word was with God,
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and the Word was God."
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And it goes on to say that,
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"The same was in
the beginning with God,
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and then the Word was
made flesh and dwelt among us."
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This is interesting.
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The word, Word in the
beginning was the Word
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is the Greek word logos.
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And there are
various efforts to translate
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what the sense of that was.
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But in the local Greek culture
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in which the gospel
writer would have used
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that particular
language described Jesus,
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he's essentially saying,
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in the beginning was the logos
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and the
translation would be this,
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in the beginning was
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the logical
reason for existence,
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or in the beginning
was the rational basis
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for human experience,
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or in the beginning
is the meaning of life,
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in the beginning was the logic
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that logically
makes sense out of.
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So this is interesting,
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because here
John is approaching us
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and not saying the
Word is data on a page
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that has authority
over your intellect.
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Okay, follow this. I got you.
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He's saying the Word,
as James is pointing out,
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is a person who is communicating
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to your intellect.
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It's not
bypassing with authority
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and pouncing on
you with you ought.
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It's actually coming
inside and saying, "Listen,
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if you look at Jesus,
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this
personification of the word,
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if you look at Jesus,
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you're going to
see the rational basis
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for the things
your heart longed for,
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you're going to see the
meaning of life in Him."
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So it's approaching us,
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not so much from the top
down as from the inside out.
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It's initiating, you
know, in the Spanish,
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it says, "In the
beginning was the verb."
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So there's action.
The verb the voice?
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It is a verb. Yeah, yeah.
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So it just says,
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"In the beginning was the verb,"
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that to me, that just
sounds different than,
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"In the beginning
was the Word," right?
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So it just goes to
what you're saying,
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it's initiating.
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So the word is basically,
God is initiating something
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and inviting you on a
journey that you encounter,
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and then you discover
all of life's questions
00:10:02.50\00:10:05.13
on that journey, so to speak.
00:10:05.17\00:10:06.50
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:06.53\00:10:07.87
The thing that
you were saying there,
00:10:07.90\00:10:09.24
Ty, reminded me of a theologian
I read several years ago.
00:10:09.27\00:10:12.67
And he said that, "You know,
00:10:12.71\00:10:14.24
it's not a hard
and fast demarcation
00:10:14.28\00:10:16.78
between the Old
and the New Testament."
00:10:16.81\00:10:18.15
But one thing he did bring out,
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I thought was quite fascinating,
00:10:19.55\00:10:20.88
is that in the
Old Testament picture,
00:10:20.92\00:10:22.35
the Bible is divided
into two kind of parts
00:10:22.38\00:10:24.49
Old and New Testament.
00:10:24.52\00:10:26.15
And he was saying
that in the Old Testament,
00:10:26.19\00:10:28.06
God is often
there, He's over there.
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He's at the top of the mountain,
00:10:31.23\00:10:32.89
in the clouds and in the smoke,
00:10:32.93\00:10:34.40
He's in the most holy place
where only one person can go
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one time a year
in the sanctuaries.
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There's this sense of
the transcendence of God,
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the otherness of God.
00:10:42.40\00:10:44.31
And he sort of says, "Okay,
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so that's sort
of Old Testament."
00:10:45.71\00:10:47.24
And then he says, "You
come to the New Testament,"
00:10:47.28\00:10:49.21
and he says,
00:10:49.24\00:10:50.58
"But here's this same
God, Jehovah God, Yahweh God."
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And Jesus
sitting across the table,
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He's sitting down with you,
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there's kids playing on His lap,
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there's women
that are coming in,
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you know, anointing Him,
in preparation for His burial.
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And he said,
00:11:05.03\00:11:06.36
"What we have in
the Old Testament
00:11:06.39\00:11:07.73
is largely
transcendence, it's up there.
00:11:07.76\00:11:09.30
What we have in
the New Testament
00:11:09.33\00:11:10.67
is He's right there."
00:11:10.70\00:11:12.03
A woman is in the
kitchen cooking up a meal,
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and another
woman is at His feet,
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asking theological questions.
00:11:14.80\00:11:16.14
And so I love this
idea here that John 1,
00:11:16.17\00:11:19.01
what you're saying is, is that,
00:11:19.04\00:11:20.38
in the beginning
was the one, the logic,
00:11:20.41\00:11:23.24
the meaning of life, the verb.
00:11:23.28\00:11:25.75
He's coming down in
a mutual not top down,
00:11:25.78\00:11:30.12
but thus saith
00:11:30.15\00:11:31.49
the Lord right
here, right in this place.
00:11:31.52\00:11:32.85
He came to us and became
flash, like that's this...
00:11:32.89\00:11:34.86
And this is really the key,
00:11:34.89\00:11:36.22
we're not going to
jump into this right now.
00:11:36.26\00:11:37.59
But this is really
key to understanding
00:11:37.63\00:11:38.96
pain and
suffering, to understand
00:11:38.99\00:11:40.33
the whole dynamic,
00:11:40.36\00:11:41.70
because the answers
don't always come with logic,
00:11:41.73\00:11:43.90
but they come with
the fact that Jesus Christ
00:11:43.93\00:11:46.47
that God Himself has
stepped into our experience.
00:11:46.50\00:11:48.27
He's with us. He's
with us. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:48.30\00:11:49.90
Have any of you
guys seen this book
00:11:49.94\00:11:51.84
"Letter to a
Christian Nation" by Sam Harris?
00:11:51.87\00:11:54.64
This is, you know,
it has a cover on it,
00:11:54.68\00:11:56.75
so it's a book.
00:11:56.78\00:11:58.11
But really, it's a letter.
00:11:58.15\00:12:00.05
It's a letter, that Sam Harris,
00:12:00.08\00:12:02.88
a very prominent
advocate in American culture,
00:12:02.92\00:12:05.72
and actually
worldwide of atheism.
00:12:05.75\00:12:07.96
He's an unbeliever,
00:12:07.99\00:12:09.32
very staunch and
militant, atheist.
00:12:09.36\00:12:12.73
And he just sat down,
00:12:12.76\00:12:14.10
and he wrote a letter
to a Christian nation,
00:12:14.13\00:12:18.00
to the United States of
America and its population.
00:12:18.03\00:12:20.84
And it's very
fascinating that in this letter,
00:12:20.87\00:12:23.27
he begins to flesh out
00:12:23.30\00:12:25.67
why he doesn't find
Christianity persuasive,
00:12:25.71\00:12:29.81
and why he doesn't believe.
00:12:29.84\00:12:32.15
I think it's interesting
that as you read his letter
00:12:32.18\00:12:36.62
to a Christian nation,
00:12:36.65\00:12:38.35
you would
expect from an atheist,
00:12:38.39\00:12:40.12
you expect him to say,
"Okay, I don't believe in God,
00:12:40.16\00:12:42.46
and here are the
scientific reasons,
00:12:42.49\00:12:44.26
the reasons from physics,
00:12:44.29\00:12:45.63
and the reasons from
biology, and the reasons..."
00:12:45.66\00:12:48.13
But this is all pretty much.
00:12:48.16\00:12:50.37
I mean, he
references some of that.
00:12:50.40\00:12:51.87
But really, he's
saying, "I don't believe in God,
00:12:51.90\00:12:54.60
because the God
that has been represented
00:12:54.64\00:13:00.08
isn't worth believing then."
00:13:00.11\00:13:01.44
That's
essentially the core of it.
00:13:01.48\00:13:02.81
So he has this one
section here in the letter
00:13:02.84\00:13:05.18
where he deals with the Bible.
00:13:05.21\00:13:06.72
This is interesting.
00:13:06.75\00:13:08.08
He says, you got to
remember it's a letter.
00:13:08.12\00:13:09.82
So he's addressing Christians,
he says, "You, you Christians,
00:13:09.85\00:13:12.82
you believe that the
Bible is the Word of God.
00:13:12.85\00:13:16.66
You believe that
Jesus is the Son of God.
00:13:16.69\00:13:19.36
And that only those who
place their faith in Jesus
00:13:19.39\00:13:23.57
will find
salvation after death."
00:13:23.60\00:13:27.07
He goes on and says,
"You believe, of course,
00:13:27.10\00:13:31.87
that those who do not
put their faith in Jesus
00:13:31.91\00:13:35.01
will burn in hell
and be tormented forever.
00:13:35.04\00:13:39.45
So he's saying, okay,
00:13:39.48\00:13:42.05
you want me to
believe in God, okay?
00:13:42.08\00:13:44.69
You want me to
believe what you believe.
00:13:44.72\00:13:46.92
But the Bible has been
represented to me as teaching,
00:13:46.96\00:13:51.66
that there's no way
for anybody to be saved,
00:13:51.69\00:13:54.20
who doesn't immediately
confess in the immediate sense
00:13:54.23\00:13:59.93
of a direct connection.
00:13:59.97\00:14:02.50
You can't be eternally saved
00:14:02.54\00:14:04.17
unless you have belief
in Jesus, specifically,
00:14:04.21\00:14:08.34
and everybody else is
going to burn eternally in hell.
00:14:08.38\00:14:11.85
Now, I find it interesting,
00:14:11.88\00:14:13.82
and we're going to have
a conversation later on.
00:14:13.85\00:14:16.02
This guy actually
asked the question,
00:14:16.05\00:14:19.12
"Can somebody actually be saved
00:14:19.15\00:14:20.76
who never even
heard the name of Jesus?"
00:14:20.79\00:14:22.12
And that's going to be a
pretty provocative conversation.
00:14:22.16\00:14:24.69
But right now,
00:14:24.73\00:14:26.06
I'm simply pointing
out that a lot of unbelief
00:14:26.09\00:14:30.20
is based on misrepresentation...
00:14:30.23\00:14:31.57
Yeah, great point.
00:14:31.60\00:14:32.93
Of what the Bible...
00:14:32.97\00:14:34.30
So if the Bible says
that God plays favorites,
00:14:34.34\00:14:38.67
that God is respecter
of persons, so to speak,
00:14:38.71\00:14:42.58
that God's a racist
00:14:42.61\00:14:43.95
or God in some
way that will save you
00:14:43.98\00:14:47.55
because you were
born at the right time
00:14:47.58\00:14:48.92
and heard the right thing,
00:14:48.95\00:14:50.29
but nobody else has
access to this knowledge.
00:14:50.32\00:14:52.12
But John Chapter 1 is telling us
00:14:52.15\00:14:56.26
that even before
Jesus by the name, Jesus
00:14:56.29\00:14:58.79
came into the
world, He was the logos,
00:14:58.83\00:15:01.13
He was the Word
that was speaking
00:15:01.16\00:15:02.50
to all people's hearts
00:15:02.53\00:15:03.87
down through
history and all cultures.
00:15:03.90\00:15:06.20
But Sam Harris
doesn't know that,
00:15:06.23\00:15:08.14
because all he's
heard is that nobody,
00:15:08.17\00:15:11.87
but Americans
who believe in Jesus
00:15:11.91\00:15:15.64
can be eternally
saved, so to speak.
00:15:15.68\00:15:17.18
And that's an
exaggeration for effect,
00:15:17.21\00:15:19.08
and anyone who doesn't is
going to burn forever in hell.
00:15:19.11\00:15:21.62
But we can sit here
00:15:21.65\00:15:22.98
and we could
bring Sam to this table.
00:15:23.02\00:15:25.09
And we could say, "Sam,
00:15:25.12\00:15:26.79
you're now at a table
with people who do believe
00:15:26.82\00:15:28.86
that the
Bible's the Word of God,
00:15:28.89\00:15:30.43
who do believe that
Jesus is the savior.
00:15:30.46\00:15:33.60
And we don't believe
that God will torment people
00:15:33.63\00:15:36.77
forever in hell,
00:15:36.80\00:15:38.13
and we don't believe that
God is so exclusive and narrow,
00:15:38.17\00:15:42.60
that anybody throughout history
who's never had the opportunity
00:15:42.64\00:15:47.91
can no way be..."
00:15:47.94\00:15:49.28
We don't believe that, Sam.
00:15:49.31\00:15:50.65
And what would he say then?
00:15:50.68\00:15:52.01
Well, let me just
add to that real quick.
00:15:52.05\00:15:53.38
And then we would say,
00:15:53.42\00:15:54.75
"And we don't
believe these things
00:15:54.78\00:15:56.89
based on this book.
00:15:56.92\00:15:58.25
On the Bible!
Yeah, that's right.
00:15:58.29\00:15:59.62
In other words,
it's not just like,
00:15:59.65\00:16:00.99
because we would be
accused in some circles of,
00:16:01.02\00:16:04.06
"Oh, well, you just can't deal
00:16:04.09\00:16:05.43
with the hard
passages of Scripture."
00:16:05.46\00:16:06.96
So you've invented this,
you know, airy-fairy, you know,
00:16:07.00\00:16:10.27
nice theology, but no,
00:16:10.30\00:16:12.60
we're saying that text
doesn't teach that Sam.
00:16:12.63\00:16:14.80
It teaches the exact, yeah.
00:16:14.84\00:16:16.40
The text actually
teaches the opposite,
00:16:16.44\00:16:18.47
the text teaches
that, in the end,
00:16:18.51\00:16:20.38
God will honor
everyone's choice.
00:16:20.41\00:16:22.71
In other words,
00:16:22.74\00:16:24.08
here's what I'm
hearing, Sam, say,
00:16:24.11\00:16:25.61
and you actually
went and saw him lecture,
00:16:25.65\00:16:27.25
didn't you, Jeffrey?
00:16:27.28\00:16:28.62
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:28.65\00:16:29.98
Here's the takeaway.
00:16:30.02\00:16:31.35
Many people are rejecting God,
00:16:31.39\00:16:33.52
and many people
are rejecting the Bible
00:16:33.56\00:16:36.02
for very good reasons.
00:16:36.06\00:16:37.89
For reasons that we ourselves,
00:16:37.93\00:16:40.20
if that were true
would reject the Bible.
00:16:40.23\00:16:41.56
Exactly.
00:16:41.60\00:16:42.93
We just don't think it's true.
00:16:42.96\00:16:44.30
And what's interesting
about that is in reality,
00:16:44.33\00:16:46.50
they're not rejecting the Bible,
00:16:46.53\00:16:47.87
and not rejecting God.
00:16:47.90\00:16:49.24
Thank you, thank you.
That's exactly what I'm...
00:16:49.27\00:16:50.61
But that's not what
the Bible is teaching,
00:16:50.64\00:16:51.97
it's not the
Bible they're rejecting,
00:16:52.01\00:16:53.34
there's some other idea...
00:16:53.38\00:16:54.71
They're
rejecting or lowering God.
00:16:54.74\00:16:56.08
Which Ty bought up the
text and it goes on to say,
00:16:56.11\00:16:58.05
"Jesus Christ is the
light that lightens every man
00:16:58.08\00:16:59.41
that comes into the world."
00:16:59.45\00:17:00.78
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:00.82\00:17:02.15
Now so this man has
been enlightened by darkness.
00:17:02.18\00:17:04.69
While he's been enlightened
by a reality in his brain
00:17:04.72\00:17:08.66
that does not
jive, does not equal,
00:17:08.69\00:17:11.79
does not go along with
what he hears Christian saying.
00:17:11.83\00:17:16.00
"Wait a minute.
00:17:16.03\00:17:17.37
I can't believe in
that kind of a God,
00:17:17.40\00:17:18.73
because that
doesn't make sense to me.
00:17:18.77\00:17:20.24
That is out of harmony
with the principle of law."
00:17:20.27\00:17:25.17
And the word that
I feel is teaching me
00:17:25.21\00:17:28.58
'cause God is teaching all men.
00:17:28.61\00:17:30.98
Something I want to say in that.
00:17:31.01\00:17:32.35
And it doesn't mean
we don't want to insult
00:17:32.38\00:17:34.45
Sam's
intelligence or anyone else's.
00:17:34.48\00:17:36.32
It doesn't mean that
if you heard the truth
00:17:36.35\00:17:38.42
that you would
have to believe it,
00:17:38.45\00:17:40.56
in a compulsory sense.
00:17:40.59\00:17:42.92
But at least what you say,
00:17:42.96\00:17:44.29
you would be
rejecting the thing,
00:17:44.33\00:17:46.73
not a caricature of the thing.
00:17:46.76\00:17:48.80
You would be saying, "Oh,
so that's what the Bible is,
00:17:48.83\00:17:50.57
well, I still don't want to have
00:17:50.60\00:17:51.93
anything to do with it."
00:17:51.97\00:17:53.30
And he says an
intelligent rejection
00:17:53.34\00:17:54.67
and not a misrepresentation,
not a misunderstanding.
00:17:54.70\00:17:56.64
So would you
guys agree with this?
00:17:56.67\00:17:58.67
Is there a sense in
which there are aspects
00:17:58.71\00:18:03.55
of or forms that atheism takes
that you would actually affirm?
00:18:03.58\00:18:07.95
Yeah, absolute.
00:18:07.98\00:18:09.32
That you would
say, if somebody says,
00:18:09.35\00:18:11.15
"I'm an atheist, I
don't believe in God.
00:18:11.19\00:18:13.39
And these are my reasons."
00:18:13.42\00:18:14.92
And we could say to them,
"We affirm your unbelief."
00:18:14.96\00:18:17.26
We agree with them.
00:18:17.29\00:18:18.63
We would say, "Amen."
00:18:18.66\00:18:20.00
"We affirm your unbelief
00:18:20.03\00:18:21.36
in that picture
you just painted.
00:18:21.40\00:18:24.33
Because what you don't
believe in is the same thing
00:18:24.37\00:18:25.70
we don't believe in.
00:18:25.73\00:18:27.07
Yeah, several years ago, I
watched a debate between...
00:18:27.10\00:18:30.21
That's my alarm going
off, waking me up in Australia.
00:18:30.24\00:18:33.94
Several years ago,
00:18:33.98\00:18:35.31
I watched the debate
between a devout atheist
00:18:35.34\00:18:37.78
Christopher Hitchens
who's passed away since
00:18:37.81\00:18:41.38
and the Christian
apologists Dinesh D'Souza,
00:18:41.42\00:18:44.29
and watching this
debate at King's College,
00:18:44.32\00:18:46.29
Christopher Hitchens' atheist,
Dinesh D'Souza Christian.
00:18:46.32\00:18:48.72
And as the debate is going on,
00:18:48.76\00:18:50.33
I'm pulling for
Christopher Hitchens.
00:18:50.36\00:18:52.59
For the atheists?
00:18:52.63\00:18:53.96
I'm pulling for the atheists.
00:18:54.00\00:18:55.33
I'm saying, "Oh, man,
that's a great point."
00:18:55.36\00:18:56.83
And I found D'Souza's answers
00:18:56.87\00:18:58.27
to be completely unsatisfactory.
00:18:58.30\00:19:00.84
I literally was
wishing I was in the debate,
00:19:00.87\00:19:02.54
not because I
think I would be anything
00:19:02.57\00:19:04.34
like an intellectual match
00:19:04.37\00:19:05.71
for the Late
Christopher Hitchens,
00:19:05.74\00:19:07.08
But if he had made
his opening remarks,
00:19:07.11\00:19:08.94
his 10 minutes
of opening remarks,
00:19:08.98\00:19:10.31
just as he had in
that debate with D'Souza,
00:19:10.35\00:19:13.08
I literally could
have stood up and said,
00:19:13.11\00:19:15.55
"I agree with
everything you said,"
00:19:15.58\00:19:17.59
and sat down.
00:19:17.62\00:19:18.95
Yeah, yeah, the reasons...
00:19:18.99\00:19:20.32
Because the reasons the
objections that he raised
00:19:20.36\00:19:22.29
against the
Bible, against religion,
00:19:22.32\00:19:24.39
and against God are all
things that I resonate with.
00:19:24.43\00:19:27.43
I would have said,
"I agree with that.
00:19:27.46\00:19:28.80
I agree with
that. I agree with that.
00:19:28.83\00:19:30.17
Okay, next point."
00:19:30.20\00:19:31.53
So we have to take break.
00:19:32.77\00:19:34.10
But this is a fun discussion.
00:19:34.14\00:19:35.84
And we have the
privilege of encouraging
00:19:35.87\00:19:40.18
other people to
sit around the table,
00:19:40.21\00:19:42.21
in their local areas and
have similar discussions,
00:19:42.24\00:19:44.88
it's very edifying.
00:19:44.91\00:19:46.41
So after the break,
we'll just pursue this more.
00:19:46.45\00:19:48.85
Want a seat at the table?
00:20:01.16\00:20:02.70
Well, you're certainly invited.
00:20:02.73\00:20:04.87
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So the question we're tackling
in this part of our discussion
00:21:58.38\00:22:02.92
is simply this,
00:22:02.95\00:22:04.95
"Is the Bible the Word of God?"
00:22:04.99\00:22:06.79
You've got to admit,
that's a pretty heady claim.
00:22:06.82\00:22:08.49
Very heady.
00:22:08.52\00:22:09.86
To say, "Okay, here's
the book, words on the pages,
00:22:09.89\00:22:14.26
and this is in
some sense from God.
00:22:14.30\00:22:19.93
And some authoritative.
00:22:19.97\00:22:21.30
Yeah, that's
right. And some authority.
00:22:21.34\00:22:22.67
So it's a pretty heavy
claim that we're making.
00:22:22.70\00:22:24.04
I think we better say
something that backs up
00:22:24.07\00:22:25.51
why we believe that.
00:22:25.54\00:22:26.88
So as James mentioned
before, there's the historical,
00:22:26.91\00:22:31.78
there's the philosophical,
00:22:31.81\00:22:33.65
there's the
prophetic and the experiential.
00:22:33.68\00:22:36.15
What do you want to tackle?
00:22:36.18\00:22:37.52
Is there something that
appeals more to your mind
00:22:37.55\00:22:41.52
that is persuasive than another?
00:22:41.56\00:22:43.79
I mean, why do you believe
the Bible is the Word of God?
00:22:43.83\00:22:46.59
I guess that's what I'm asking.
00:22:46.63\00:22:47.96
Can I ask this question?
00:22:48.00\00:22:49.33
Or can I throw this in that mix?
00:22:49.36\00:22:51.13
We say the Bible
is the Word of God,
00:22:51.17\00:22:52.63
but I feel like even
that requires clarification.
00:22:52.67\00:22:55.57
I know that, that
required clarification
00:22:55.60\00:22:57.21
for me when I became a believer.
00:22:57.24\00:22:58.57
Okay, what does that mean
to say, it's the Word of God?
00:22:58.61\00:23:01.11
There's many words in there.
00:23:01.14\00:23:02.48
Does that mean God dictated it?
00:23:02.51\00:23:03.91
Exactly.
00:23:03.95\00:23:05.28
I like to say it this way,
00:23:05.31\00:23:06.65
the Bible is God's
revelation to the world,
00:23:06.68\00:23:11.29
and a story, and the man Jesus.
00:23:11.32\00:23:13.46
But that doesn't mean that
the Bible is the words of God.
00:23:13.49\00:23:18.26
Now let me just
clarify what I'm saying
00:23:18.29\00:23:20.10
that what I'm not saying there.
00:23:20.13\00:23:21.76
God didn't dictate, okay
write that and write that,
00:23:21.80\00:23:25.87
and then write that
and then write that.
00:23:25.90\00:23:27.24
In fact, in the whole
of Scripture, 66 books,
00:23:27.27\00:23:30.37
thousands of chapters,
tens of thousands of words,
00:23:30.41\00:23:33.17
there are precious few words
00:23:33.21\00:23:34.58
that God Himself
wrote with His own finger.
00:23:34.61\00:23:36.61
And those were
The Ten Commandments
00:23:36.64\00:23:37.98
on tablets of stone.
00:23:38.01\00:23:39.35
So when we're
reading, for example, Isaiah,
00:23:39.38\00:23:41.78
if I just close my eyes,
and somebody started reading,
00:23:41.82\00:23:44.42
you guys can do the same thing,
00:23:44.45\00:23:45.79
those that are familiar
with Scripture would say,
00:23:45.82\00:23:47.16
"Ah, that sounds like Isaiah."
00:23:47.19\00:23:49.12
And then if you
just start reading,
00:23:49.16\00:23:50.49
"Oh, man, that
sounds like that's Paul."
00:23:50.53\00:23:51.89
All right.
00:23:51.93\00:23:53.26
But what's going on?
00:23:53.29\00:23:54.63
Or their
stylistic concerns that...
00:23:54.66\00:23:56.00
They're stylistic individuals
were actually writing.
00:23:56.03\00:23:59.10
God did not come
into and start...
00:23:59.13\00:24:00.47
There's the human
fingerprint, again.
00:24:00.50\00:24:02.47
That's why you
could even identify.
00:24:02.50\00:24:03.84
Okay, so...
00:24:03.87\00:24:05.21
If it was dictated it
would all sound the same.
00:24:05.24\00:24:06.61
Sound the same.
00:24:06.64\00:24:07.98
So then the question is,
what do we mean when we say,
00:24:08.01\00:24:10.38
we're asking the question,
"Is the Bible the Word of God?"
00:24:10.41\00:24:12.45
And we're about ready to provide
00:24:12.48\00:24:13.82
these reasons for it.
00:24:13.85\00:24:15.18
I like a quotation,
00:24:15.22\00:24:17.09
a statement that I
read a number of years ago,
00:24:17.12\00:24:20.92
where Ellen White said,
00:24:20.96\00:24:25.29
"God as an author
00:24:25.33\00:24:27.16
is not
represented in Scripture,"
00:24:27.20\00:24:29.86
and then went on to say,
00:24:29.90\00:24:31.23
"Not only as God not
represented as an author,"
00:24:31.27\00:24:34.54
then went on to say,
00:24:34.57\00:24:36.34
"that the prophets
were God's pen men,
00:24:36.37\00:24:39.71
not His pen."
00:24:39.74\00:24:41.08
Not His pen, yeah.
Yeah, I've read that too.
00:24:41.11\00:24:42.84
So this idea is,
00:24:42.88\00:24:44.65
I like the way
Abraham Joshua Heschel,
00:24:44.68\00:24:46.82
there's a statement I
read by him just recently,
00:24:46.85\00:24:50.55
where he said,
00:24:50.59\00:24:51.99
"The prophets are people,
00:24:52.02\00:24:54.66
not a microphone."
00:24:54.69\00:24:56.83
And that was
his way of saying...
00:24:56.86\00:24:58.89
Making the same point.
00:24:58.93\00:25:00.26
Yeah, there's a human element,
00:25:00.30\00:25:02.26
and that human
element is expressed by Peter
00:25:02.30\00:25:05.53
when he says,
"Holy men of old spoke
00:25:05.57\00:25:08.10
as they were moved
by the Holy Spirit."
00:25:08.14\00:25:09.90
So the Holy Spirit
is present, and active,
00:25:09.94\00:25:12.61
moving upon the human agent,
00:25:12.64\00:25:14.34
and the human
agent is then writing
00:25:14.38\00:25:16.54
and that's why you see that
00:25:16.58\00:25:18.25
Paul's writing
style is different
00:25:18.28\00:25:19.95
than Isaiah sort of...
00:25:19.98\00:25:21.32
But it makes
perfect sense, right?
00:25:21.35\00:25:22.68
Because people are different.
00:25:22.72\00:25:24.69
I love that explanation.
00:25:24.72\00:25:26.05
People are different.
00:25:26.09\00:25:27.42
The reader is different.
00:25:27.46\00:25:29.16
We're not all the same.
00:25:29.19\00:25:30.53
So by having a revelation
00:25:30.56\00:25:32.99
that consists of
different personalities
00:25:33.03\00:25:35.33
with different styles
and different language,
00:25:35.36\00:25:38.67
it appeals to different people.
00:25:38.70\00:25:40.44
It wasn't uniformly.
00:25:40.47\00:25:41.80
Okay, I just want to put
that on the table before we...
00:25:41.84\00:25:43.77
Okay, so in
answer to your question,
00:25:43.81\00:25:45.31
you asked the question,
00:25:45.34\00:25:46.68
"Is there one
that appeals to you?
00:25:46.71\00:25:48.71
And I would say, as much
as I wish that in some sense,
00:25:48.74\00:25:51.88
I could say, "Well, I
examined the evidences
00:25:51.91\00:25:55.82
for the historicity and
believability of Scripture.
00:25:55.85\00:25:58.09
And I came to a
reason to conclude."
00:25:58.12\00:25:59.45
Okay, that's not
what happened in my life.
00:25:59.49\00:26:01.49
In my life, I was in
a period of depression,
00:26:01.52\00:26:04.86
I was in a period
of discouragement,
00:26:04.89\00:26:06.70
and you guys know
me, I'm normally a happy,
00:26:06.73\00:26:08.40
upbeat, buoyant person.
00:26:08.43\00:26:10.47
This was a dark
period of my life.
00:26:10.50\00:26:12.23
It was a
difficult period of my life.
00:26:12.27\00:26:13.67
I was 23 years old,
00:26:13.70\00:26:15.04
sort of searching for direction,
00:26:15.07\00:26:16.47
haunted by aimlessness
00:26:16.50\00:26:17.84
and had been
through a personal tragedy
00:26:17.87\00:26:21.28
difficult situation.
00:26:21.31\00:26:22.84
And I opened up a book
that wasn't even the Bible,
00:26:22.88\00:26:25.01
it was a book about the Bible.
00:26:25.05\00:26:26.78
But the thing that I opened up
00:26:26.82\00:26:28.78
the, the whole opening
page was the story of Luke's,
00:26:28.82\00:26:32.32
not the story, it was
the passage of Luke 17.
00:26:32.35\00:26:35.19
And Jesus says the
story, Jesus is there.
00:26:35.22\00:26:37.56
He's sitting on
top of a mountain,
00:26:37.59\00:26:38.93
He's looking at
a city, Jerusalem.
00:26:38.96\00:26:40.30
Now, I don't know
much about the Bible,
00:26:40.33\00:26:41.66
hardly at all.
00:26:41.70\00:26:43.03
At that point, you
mean? At that point.
00:26:43.06\00:26:44.40
He's looking at the
city, and He's crying.
00:26:44.43\00:26:46.87
And He's saying, "O
Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
00:26:46.90\00:26:48.47
how often I wanted
to gather you to get."
00:26:48.50\00:26:50.64
And I had a
resonance with this guy, Jesus.
00:26:50.67\00:26:53.34
Who is this guy, Jesus?
00:26:53.38\00:26:54.71
He's crying, He feels
rejected, He feels forlorn.
00:26:54.74\00:26:56.51
And that's exactly
00:26:56.54\00:26:58.18
how I was
feeling at that moment.
00:26:58.21\00:26:59.55
That's amazing.
00:26:59.58\00:27:00.92
And so in a super,
00:27:00.95\00:27:02.28
but I can only describe
as a supernatural synergy.
00:27:02.32\00:27:05.85
I felt a resonance with Jesus
and a resonance with Luke 17
00:27:05.89\00:27:10.39
that came before any
intellectual, historical,
00:27:10.43\00:27:14.50
philosophical reason
before I ever got there.
00:27:14.53\00:27:16.90
I was like, "Man, this
is speaking to my soul."
00:27:16.93\00:27:19.97
Something very
similar happened to me,
00:27:20.00\00:27:22.14
but as we're all individuals
from a totally different angle.
00:27:22.17\00:27:26.34
I grew up witnessing
a lot of concrete evil,
00:27:26.37\00:27:29.28
a lot of suffering.
00:27:29.31\00:27:30.65
And as a child,
00:27:30.68\00:27:33.78
all I saw going on
around me was horrible.
00:27:33.82\00:27:37.39
It was just bad.
00:27:37.42\00:27:38.75
And I didn't like it.
00:27:38.79\00:27:40.12
And there was a
big problem in my mind.
00:27:40.16\00:27:43.02
And the problem was that
00:27:43.06\00:27:45.53
I couldn't accept
the existence of God.
00:27:45.56\00:27:47.36
And I couldn't accept
the Bible as the Word of God.
00:27:47.40\00:27:50.10
Because I couldn't understand
00:27:50.13\00:27:52.60
how a God with any kind of power
00:27:52.63\00:27:56.20
that is significant could exist,
00:27:56.24\00:27:59.04
and allow for the kind of
stuff I grew up witnessing.
00:27:59.07\00:28:02.14
So you resonated with a
book that was about the Bible,
00:28:02.18\00:28:07.55
similar for me.
00:28:07.58\00:28:09.38
And the thing
that came to my mind,
00:28:09.42\00:28:11.69
I love what you said
that you saw Jesus crying,
00:28:11.72\00:28:15.82
and sad about what was going on
00:28:15.86\00:28:19.39
in the city of Jerusalem.
00:28:19.43\00:28:21.10
I suddenly encountered this idea
00:28:21.13\00:28:24.43
that God is love.
00:28:24.47\00:28:27.20
I always thought of
God in terms of power,
00:28:27.24\00:28:29.67
if there is a God, I
wasn't sure there was a God.
00:28:29.70\00:28:31.27
But I thought,
well, God, if God exists,
00:28:31.31\00:28:33.58
would have to
equate to a lot of power.
00:28:33.61\00:28:36.24
So why isn't He doing anything?
00:28:36.28\00:28:37.75
You know, it was
a very simplistic...
00:28:37.78\00:28:39.41
I think a lot of people have
that similarly simplistic view.
00:28:39.45\00:28:40.78
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:40.82\00:28:42.45
But then all of a sudden,
00:28:42.48\00:28:43.85
this idea of love
was thrown in picture.
00:28:43.89\00:28:46.76
And all of a sudden, I
thought, "Wait a minute,
00:28:46.79\00:28:48.99
there's a different
way to look at this."
00:28:49.02\00:28:50.79
And like your experience,
my heart began to resonate.
00:28:50.83\00:28:54.13
And then, as I
mentioned earlier,
00:28:54.16\00:28:56.50
the evangelist who was saying,
00:28:56.53\00:28:57.87
the Bible says, young man,
therefore you ought to believe.
00:28:57.90\00:29:00.40
Well, I actually believed
before the Bible had authority.
00:29:00.44\00:29:04.37
And then the Bible
gains traction with me,
00:29:04.41\00:29:06.41
I began to see that
it was authoritative,
00:29:06.44\00:29:08.64
because it was speaking to me
00:29:08.68\00:29:10.78
on the premise of the
things that were making sense,
00:29:10.81\00:29:13.62
at that point in my life.
00:29:13.65\00:29:14.98
You're longing to understand God
00:29:15.02\00:29:17.35
is something more
than just power force.
00:29:17.39\00:29:19.42
Yeah.
00:29:19.45\00:29:20.79
That the actual verse I said,
Luke 17, earlier, it's Luke 19.
00:29:20.82\00:29:24.06
The actual verse I
can still remember this.
00:29:24.09\00:29:26.09
I was in a dorm
room in Laramie, Wyoming,
00:29:26.13\00:29:30.33
it was October,
00:29:30.37\00:29:31.70
I can't remember
the details very well.
00:29:31.73\00:29:33.13
I could tell you the
posters that were on my wall,
00:29:33.17\00:29:34.97
I could tell you what I'd
had for dinner that night.
00:29:35.00\00:29:36.54
I mean, this
was a moment for me.
00:29:36.57\00:29:39.51
I think when we look
back over our lives, you know,
00:29:39.54\00:29:41.18
we remember those peaks...
00:29:41.21\00:29:42.58
So many things. Slow motion.
00:29:42.61\00:29:43.95
Everything's in
slow motion. Exactly.
00:29:43.98\00:29:45.31
This is in the
trailer of David's life.
00:29:45.35\00:29:46.68
This is like in the
trailer, the movie trailer,
00:29:46.72\00:29:49.78
and it was this
verse that I read.
00:29:49.82\00:29:51.82
"Now as he drew
near, he saw the city
00:29:51.85\00:29:54.06
and wept over it."
00:29:54.09\00:29:55.99
And I don't know what it was.
00:29:56.02\00:29:57.36
I was raised in sort of
a nominal Christian home.
00:29:57.39\00:29:59.19
But the picture that I
had of Jesus in my mind
00:29:59.23\00:30:02.40
did not include Him in
an emotional consternation,
00:30:02.43\00:30:08.04
frustration,
rejection, weeping over a city.
00:30:08.07\00:30:12.51
And I tell you, the
resonance there was like,
00:30:12.54\00:30:15.88
"Who is this guy?
00:30:15.91\00:30:18.81
And why is He crying?
00:30:18.85\00:30:20.18
And why is He acting like that?"
00:30:20.22\00:30:21.55
That's not the
God that Jesus said.
00:30:21.58\00:30:24.25
It's really interesting
because we all came in
00:30:24.29\00:30:29.02
through similar experiences,
from similar backgrounds.
00:30:29.06\00:30:32.36
And I remember the
verse that was my verse,
00:30:32.39\00:30:34.13
you know how it is,
every once in a while,
00:30:34.16\00:30:36.23
maybe it's a
year or a few months
00:30:36.26\00:30:37.60
but there's a verse you
read, and it's your verse.
00:30:37.63\00:30:39.17
And it's
because it really speaks
00:30:39.20\00:30:40.70
to where you are
in your experience.
00:30:40.74\00:30:42.07
At that point.
00:30:42.10\00:30:43.44
And when I first became,
00:30:43.47\00:30:44.94
I'm going to say
it in a different way,
00:30:44.97\00:30:46.41
when I first
committed my life to the Lord,
00:30:46.44\00:30:49.48
because I was raised a
Christian, so to speak.
00:30:49.51\00:30:51.51
I went to a Catholic
school, I was an altar boy,
00:30:51.55\00:30:53.72
went to church
every week as a kid.
00:30:53.75\00:30:56.72
But I was totally
immersed in the world,
00:30:56.75\00:30:59.25
especially my teenage years.
00:30:59.29\00:31:00.62
So I gave my heart to Jesus
00:31:00.66\00:31:01.99
and actually
started studying the Bible.
00:31:02.02\00:31:03.36
There's a verse that I read,
00:31:03.39\00:31:04.73
and it's one that's
familiar with all of you,
00:31:04.76\00:31:06.09
it's 2 Peter 3:9.
00:31:06.13\00:31:08.46
And that verse basically says
00:31:08.50\00:31:11.13
that God is long
suffering toward us.
00:31:11.17\00:31:14.17
He's not willing
that one would perish,
00:31:14.20\00:31:16.50
but that all would
come to repentance.
00:31:16.54\00:31:19.07
And that was it for me.
00:31:19.11\00:31:20.44
I mean, that verse spoke to me.
00:31:20.48\00:31:22.21
And it informed
me about this God.
00:31:22.24\00:31:25.38
This wasn't a God
that I just had to appease
00:31:25.41\00:31:27.48
and make sure I
went to confession,
00:31:27.52\00:31:28.85
and make sure I
said so many prayers,
00:31:28.88\00:31:30.29
and made sure I went to church,
you know, so many times a year,
00:31:30.32\00:31:33.82
including Christmas and Easter.
00:31:33.86\00:31:35.52
This wasn't, that wasn't Him.
00:31:35.56\00:31:36.89
This was a God
that was long suffering.
00:31:36.93\00:31:38.43
Patience.
00:31:38.46\00:31:39.79
Loved me so much.
00:31:39.83\00:31:41.16
He was waiting,
waiting, waiting, waiting
00:31:41.20\00:31:42.66
and He didn't want me to perish.
00:31:42.70\00:31:44.47
He did not want me to perish.
00:31:44.50\00:31:45.83
He was not
wanting anyone to perish.
00:31:45.87\00:31:47.97
He wants everyone
to come to repentance.
00:31:48.00\00:31:49.34
And that was it
that all of a sudden,
00:31:49.37\00:31:51.27
the Bible meant something,
00:31:51.31\00:31:52.64
now the Word of God
meant something to me,
00:31:52.67\00:31:54.24
rather than just
this intellectual outline
00:31:54.28\00:31:56.85
of how you practice religion.
00:31:56.88\00:31:58.38
The common theme in
yours and your story,
00:31:58.41\00:32:01.05
and your story and my story
00:32:01.08\00:32:02.42
is that the first
thing that appealed to us
00:32:02.45\00:32:04.15
in Scripture that
really began to give Scripture
00:32:04.19\00:32:06.55
traction or credibility
00:32:06.59\00:32:08.39
was a picture of
God that was beautiful.
00:32:08.42\00:32:11.13
Yeah, that's right.
00:32:11.16\00:32:12.49
God is love. God is patient.
00:32:12.53\00:32:14.26
He wants to save even me.
00:32:14.30\00:32:15.63
Jesus is weeping. Yeah.
00:32:15.66\00:32:17.37
Was yours, anything like
that, Jeffrey? Or was it...
00:32:17.40\00:32:19.50
I just take a
completely different direction,
00:32:19.53\00:32:21.20
because I mentioned
earlier that for sure,
00:32:21.24\00:32:24.01
there was this sense of purpose
00:32:24.04\00:32:27.94
and meaning that
I was looking for.
00:32:27.98\00:32:29.31
But actually, the
intellectual reasons
00:32:29.34\00:32:33.08
played a more
prominent role for me earlier.
00:32:33.11\00:32:35.55
And I think it's
important to address this now.
00:32:35.58\00:32:39.92
This idea that
00:32:39.95\00:32:41.72
God doesn't expect us to
believe without giving us
00:32:41.76\00:32:45.86
sufficient evidence
upon which to base our faith.
00:32:45.89\00:32:48.93
There is this concept
that the Bible is not merely
00:32:48.96\00:32:51.87
a philosophical proposition.
00:32:51.90\00:32:53.87
So the biblical worldview,
00:32:53.90\00:32:55.87
Christianity is not
a philosophical system.
00:32:55.90\00:33:00.18
It's actually a record of things
00:33:00.21\00:33:02.71
that took place in real time.
00:33:02.74\00:33:04.58
That's right.
00:33:04.61\00:33:05.95
Real events with real people,
00:33:05.98\00:33:07.95
God entering into time and space
00:33:07.98\00:33:10.25
and things happened.
00:33:10.29\00:33:11.95
And so, that to me was
really powerful in the idea
00:33:11.99\00:33:15.32
that the Bible
00:33:15.36\00:33:16.69
is a historical document really,
00:33:16.73\00:33:18.29
of God's
interaction with humanity.
00:33:18.33\00:33:20.00
And so to me, I began
to think, "Okay, wait,
00:33:20.03\00:33:23.47
the claims of
Scripture are different
00:33:23.50\00:33:26.03
than some of the other
things I've been exposed to."
00:33:26.07\00:33:28.57
And so there's prophecies,
00:33:28.60\00:33:30.74
there's prophetic
promises in the Bible,
00:33:30.77\00:33:32.81
where God promised
00:33:32.84\00:33:35.64
that certain
things would take place.
00:33:35.68\00:33:37.85
And so I actually
literally went to the library...
00:33:37.88\00:33:41.62
You love the library.
00:33:41.65\00:33:42.98
And I consulted
different source material,
00:33:43.02\00:33:47.76
to try to figure
out if the things
00:33:47.79\00:33:49.22
that were recorded
here actually took place.
00:33:49.26\00:33:52.09
So to me, no
question, the emotional need,
00:33:52.13\00:33:56.06
and the emotional
hunger and thirst,
00:33:56.10\00:33:57.53
and searching for
meaning was important.
00:33:57.57\00:33:59.57
But I was
confronted with the fact
00:33:59.60\00:34:01.67
that the Bible is a
historical document.
00:34:01.70\00:34:04.27
And the theological
claims that it makes
00:34:04.31\00:34:07.98
are based on the
historical reality
00:34:08.01\00:34:11.11
of that these
things actually happened.
00:34:11.15\00:34:13.88
And then from those
things, I, you know,
00:34:13.92\00:34:15.98
we jumped to the meaning
and the theology behind it.
00:34:16.02\00:34:19.39
When you mentioned
prophecies, Jeffrey...
00:34:19.42\00:34:20.76
Yeah.
00:34:20.79\00:34:22.12
Prophecy is a powerful
00:34:22.16\00:34:25.26
internal testimony to
the supernatural origin
00:34:25.29\00:34:30.30
of the book that
we call the Bible.
00:34:30.33\00:34:33.20
This is very interesting for me,
00:34:33.23\00:34:35.37
we all are
familiar with the fact
00:34:35.40\00:34:37.11
that there are
somewhere between 300
00:34:37.14\00:34:40.38
some even have
counted 400 prophecies
00:34:40.41\00:34:43.78
in the Old Testament,
00:34:43.81\00:34:45.45
foretelling the coming Messiah,
00:34:45.48\00:34:48.12
Jesus Christ as the
Savior of the world.
00:34:48.15\00:34:50.65
And that's hundreds of
statements with details
00:34:50.69\00:34:54.26
that are saying,
He'll be like this,
00:34:54.29\00:34:55.79
He'll do this, there
are all kinds of details.
00:34:55.82\00:34:59.79
Just a few of them here,
this is just eight of them.
00:34:59.83\00:35:02.86
The Prophet Micah foretold
that the Messiah would be born
00:35:02.90\00:35:06.67
in a particular town, Bethlehem.
00:35:06.70\00:35:09.87
And Jesus was in
fact, born in Bethlehem.
00:35:09.90\00:35:13.11
At that point, you're saying,
"Oh, yeah, well, so what?
00:35:13.14\00:35:15.41
Lots of people
were born in Bethlehem."
00:35:15.44\00:35:17.61
But watch where this goes.
00:35:17.65\00:35:19.01
Isaiah, the prophet
foretold that the Messiah
00:35:19.05\00:35:22.42
would be heralded by
a forerunner type figure
00:35:22.45\00:35:26.69
who would be a country boy,
00:35:26.72\00:35:28.56
who would be out in
the wilderness crying out
00:35:28.59\00:35:30.46
and telling
people, "Hey, He's coming.
00:35:30.49\00:35:31.89
He's coming. He's coming."
00:35:31.93\00:35:33.40
And as the story
unfolds, in the New Testament,
00:35:33.43\00:35:35.23
Jesus was
preceded by a forerunner,
00:35:35.26\00:35:37.77
John the Baptist,
00:35:37.80\00:35:39.13
who talked about the
fact that He was coming.
00:35:39.17\00:35:41.40
So that's two now.
00:35:41.44\00:35:42.84
Then three, Zachariah foretold
00:35:42.87\00:35:46.47
that He would enter
into the city of Jerusalem
00:35:46.51\00:35:49.38
riding on a donkey.
00:35:49.41\00:35:51.21
And then, in fact,
00:35:51.25\00:35:52.78
Jesus did at a
certain point in His ministry,
00:35:52.81\00:35:57.45
fulfilled that exact prophecy.
00:35:57.49\00:35:58.99
Now we're up to three or four.
00:35:59.02\00:36:02.02
And then...
00:36:02.06\00:36:03.83
No, that was number three.
00:36:03.86\00:36:05.19
The number four is
Zachariah also foretold
00:36:05.23\00:36:07.50
that Jesus would be betrayed
00:36:07.53\00:36:10.20
into the hands of
His enemies by a friend.
00:36:10.23\00:36:13.70
And we think of the
experience with Judas.
00:36:13.74\00:36:15.97
Number five,
00:36:16.00\00:36:17.34
Zachariah foretold that
the Messiah would be betrayed
00:36:17.37\00:36:20.01
specifically for
30 pieces of silver,
00:36:20.04\00:36:22.44
and He was.
00:36:22.48\00:36:23.81
Number six,
00:36:23.85\00:36:25.18
that the money would be
used by a potter's field,
00:36:25.21\00:36:27.92
and it was.
00:36:27.95\00:36:29.28
Number seven,
00:36:29.32\00:36:30.65
Isaiah foretold that
Jesus would be remain silent
00:36:30.69\00:36:34.29
under excruciating
suffering and abuse and He was.
00:36:34.32\00:36:37.63
And false accusations.
In fact, false accusations.
00:36:37.66\00:36:40.53
And finally, number eight,
00:36:40.56\00:36:41.90
King David foretold
that the Messiah would die
00:36:41.93\00:36:44.43
by having His
hands and feet pierced,
00:36:44.47\00:36:46.43
and Jesus was crucified.
00:36:46.47\00:36:47.80
Now, where I'm going with
this as you brought up prophecy,
00:36:47.84\00:36:51.84
there are 300,
approximately 300 prophecies,
00:36:51.87\00:36:55.68
foretelling different
details of Jesus' coming.
00:36:55.71\00:37:00.22
Now, the chances of even
eight, I just gave eight,
00:37:00.25\00:37:04.09
the chances of even
eight of them being fulfilled
00:37:04.12\00:37:08.72
go in the
direction of impossibility
00:37:08.76\00:37:10.76
for all of those to
converge in one figure,
00:37:10.79\00:37:13.43
and to be fulfilled.
00:37:13.46\00:37:14.80
We're familiar
00:37:14.83\00:37:16.16
with what's
called probability math.
00:37:16.20\00:37:19.53
And Jeffrey and I
were investigating this.
00:37:19.57\00:37:22.37
And Jeffrey,
what are the numbers?
00:37:22.40\00:37:24.17
I mean, what are the chances
00:37:24.21\00:37:25.54
that eight things
would be fulfilled by?
00:37:25.57\00:37:26.91
There's a professor actually,
00:37:26.94\00:37:28.28
Professor Stoner
was the professor
00:37:28.31\00:37:30.41
who with his student
group did a research project
00:37:30.45\00:37:34.75
to find out the
mathematical probability.
00:37:34.78\00:37:36.48
And what they came up
with was that with just eight,
00:37:36.52\00:37:39.69
as you've mentioned.
00:37:39.72\00:37:41.06
The chances of one
man in one lifetime
00:37:41.09\00:37:44.39
fulfilling those say would be
one in tenth to the 17th power.
00:37:44.43\00:37:49.36
That if one was 1700...
00:37:49.40\00:37:51.13
I don't even know, what
do you call that number.
00:37:51.17\00:37:54.87
It's not Googleplex,
but it's going there.
00:37:54.90\00:37:57.07
Yeah.
00:37:57.11\00:37:58.44
Who know where it's going.
00:37:58.47\00:37:59.81
But anyways, the
analogy that they used was,
00:37:59.84\00:38:04.98
that would be the
equivalent of taking
00:38:05.01\00:38:06.72
that amount of silver coins,
00:38:06.75\00:38:09.68
one in tenth to the 17th power,
00:38:09.72\00:38:11.35
and scattering them
throughout the state of Texas...
00:38:11.39\00:38:14.42
By like two feet down.
00:38:14.46\00:38:16.22
That number would
reach about two feet deep.
00:38:16.26\00:38:18.09
And if you were to
take one of those coins
00:38:18.13\00:38:19.56
and put an X on
it and hiding it,
00:38:19.59\00:38:21.40
take some subject
and blindfold them
00:38:21.43\00:38:23.97
and have them walk up
and down the state of Texas.
00:38:24.00\00:38:26.27
And at some point,
00:38:26.30\00:38:27.64
dip their hand in and
pull out one of those coins...
00:38:27.67\00:38:30.21
That coin?
00:38:30.24\00:38:31.57
It have to be that coin.
00:38:31.61\00:38:32.94
To pull up that coin with the X
00:38:32.97\00:38:34.74
would be the probability
00:38:34.78\00:38:36.18
that will be one in
tenth to the 17th power.
00:38:36.21\00:38:37.55
Wow, that's a good
way of illustrating it.
00:38:37.58\00:38:39.21
So every time you add
number nine, you read eight,
00:38:39.25\00:38:42.42
when you add nine, the
probability goes wacky,
00:38:42.45\00:38:46.45
it gets wacky, and
then you go all the way up.
00:38:46.49\00:38:48.62
And then they reached
as far as I can remember,
00:38:48.66\00:38:51.09
48 of the 300 prophecies
00:38:51.13\00:38:55.30
would be one in
tenth to the 157th power.
00:38:55.33\00:38:59.13
That's one with
157 zeros next to it.
00:38:59.17\00:39:02.10
So it's just 49.
It just gets crazy.
00:39:02.14\00:39:04.71
Just to give
another illustration.
00:39:04.74\00:39:06.07
That would be
like somebody right now
00:39:06.11\00:39:10.11
foretelling that
the 68th President
00:39:10.15\00:39:13.35
of the United States
00:39:13.38\00:39:15.28
will be born in
Riverside, California.
00:39:15.32\00:39:17.82
Well, there's
a... There's a chance.
00:39:17.85\00:39:20.29
There's a chance
that can take place.
00:39:20.32\00:39:21.79
But then you add to that,
00:39:21.82\00:39:23.59
that person will
be voted in 2030.
00:39:23.63\00:39:29.26
Now it's going,
00:39:29.30\00:39:30.87
that's not likely
that you could foretell.
00:39:30.90\00:39:33.17
And then you say,
00:39:33.20\00:39:34.54
and that
President will be a woman.
00:39:34.57\00:39:37.77
And then you say that
President will be assassinated,
00:39:37.81\00:39:41.14
and that the
assassination implement
00:39:41.18\00:39:43.71
will be a 22 caliber rifle.
00:39:43.75\00:39:46.31
You see where it's going.
00:39:46.35\00:39:47.68
For every and you
every throw in, they just...
00:39:47.72\00:39:49.98
Yeah, yeah,
00:39:50.02\00:39:51.35
it goes into the
realm of impossibility.
00:39:51.39\00:39:53.15
So what about 300 of those ands?
00:39:53.19\00:39:54.52
Yes, 300 of those ands,
00:39:54.56\00:39:56.02
and basically,
you'd be saying that
00:39:56.06\00:39:59.13
you would have to
have something that
00:39:59.16\00:40:01.60
could only be
called foreknowledge,
00:40:01.63\00:40:04.73
to know that those
things are going to all line up
00:40:04.77\00:40:08.34
and converge and boom!
00:40:08.37\00:40:09.90
In that person.
Happen in one individual.
00:40:09.94\00:40:12.24
And that's what
we're dealing with
00:40:12.27\00:40:13.61
when we're
dealing with this book.
00:40:13.64\00:40:15.08
We're dealing with
that kind of accuracy.
00:40:15.11\00:40:18.11
And that's Messianic prophecies
regarding one individual.
00:40:18.15\00:40:21.18
But then there's
the sweeping prophetic
00:40:21.22\00:40:24.22
chapters in Scripture,
where it's essentially,
00:40:24.25\00:40:27.56
foretold the
movement of kingdoms,
00:40:27.59\00:40:30.76
and nations, and
empires and things like that,
00:40:30.79\00:40:32.99
like the breakup
of the Roman Empire.
00:40:33.03\00:40:36.26
How does that work?
00:40:36.30\00:40:37.63
Yeah.
00:40:37.67\00:40:39.00
Alexander The Great's
Empire, how it would dismantle.
00:40:39.03\00:40:41.27
Details of these
things are given,
00:40:41.30\00:40:44.17
and you just can't look away.
00:40:44.21\00:40:45.54
That's kind of what got me.
00:40:45.57\00:40:46.91
I was 17 years old,
00:40:46.94\00:40:48.28
I just couldn't walk
away from that, I had to...
00:40:48.31\00:40:50.65
Well, those claims
are historical claims.
00:40:50.68\00:40:52.01
They're verifiable.
00:40:52.05\00:40:53.38
Because I go to the library,
00:40:53.42\00:40:54.75
and you look and you cross check
00:40:54.78\00:40:56.28
with the source
material, and you just have to,
00:40:56.32\00:41:00.79
you know, face
to face with that,
00:41:00.82\00:41:02.16
you have to deal
with that somehow.
00:41:02.19\00:41:03.53
It is interesting.
00:41:03.56\00:41:04.89
And maybe we'll talk about this
00:41:04.93\00:41:06.26
when we come
back after the break.
00:41:06.29\00:41:07.63
But one of the chief criticisms
by people who reject the Bible
00:41:07.66\00:41:11.63
as the Word of God is that
00:41:11.67\00:41:14.00
some of these
things are too accurate.
00:41:14.04\00:41:15.80
They must have been
written later than the dates
00:41:15.84\00:41:17.97
that are
traditionally assigned to them.
00:41:18.01\00:41:19.34
Yeah, especially with Daniel.
00:41:19.37\00:41:20.71
Yeah. So it ends
up getting like...
00:41:20.74\00:41:22.08
I love that.
00:41:22.11\00:41:23.45
I love that as the
Bible will make those...
00:41:23.48\00:41:24.81
That's a great problem to have.
00:41:24.85\00:41:26.18
Yeah, a great problem to have.
00:41:26.21\00:41:27.55
It's good.
00:41:27.58\00:41:28.92
You're too accurate.
00:41:28.95\00:41:30.29
It is.
00:41:30.32\00:41:31.65
That is accurate
that we got to find a way
00:41:31.69\00:41:33.02
to reason around this
00:41:33.05\00:41:34.39
because it's just
too perfect, so...
00:41:34.42\00:41:35.89
Another thing that's,
I think we'll touch on to
00:41:35.92\00:41:38.49
is that there's too
many inconsistencies in,
00:41:38.53\00:41:40.80
for example, the gospels,
which I think is another
00:41:40.83\00:41:43.37
good argument for
the authenticity of it.
00:41:43.40\00:41:45.33
Right.
00:41:45.37\00:41:46.70
You said
inconsistency or consistency?
00:41:46.74\00:41:48.07
Yeah, yeah, inconsistency.
00:41:48.10\00:41:49.44
Inconsistency. That's right.
00:41:49.47\00:41:50.81
So let's take the break
that we're obligated to take
00:41:50.84\00:41:52.34
and then we'll
come back and continue.
00:41:52.37\00:41:53.81
A Light in Zambia is a
moving video documentary
00:42:02.28\00:42:05.49
that traces the
stories of five amazing
00:42:05.52\00:42:07.82
African men and women
who encountered Christ
00:42:07.86\00:42:10.53
through the powerful
medium of gospel literature.
00:42:10.56\00:42:13.43
To receive your free
copy, call 877-585-1111
00:42:13.46\00:42:18.77
or write to Light Bearers,
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00:42:18.80\00:42:23.30
Jasper, Oregon 97438.
00:42:23.34\00:42:26.41
Simply ask for the Zambia DVD.
00:42:26.44\00:42:28.91
I really like this.
00:42:35.88\00:42:37.22
I think that one
of the key for me,
00:42:37.25\00:42:40.96
proofs of the Word
of God is prophecy.
00:42:40.99\00:42:43.86
I remember when I first started
studying prophecy, this was,
00:42:43.89\00:42:47.03
you know, a little bit
later, I'm moving in now
00:42:47.06\00:42:49.03
to really
understanding the Bible,
00:42:49.06\00:42:51.07
and I'm studying prophecy.
00:42:51.10\00:42:52.63
And I'm coming to the conclusion
00:42:52.67\00:42:54.00
that God has
this prophetic outline
00:42:54.04\00:42:56.20
that includes a
history of the world
00:42:56.24\00:42:58.91
that is authenticated,
00:42:58.94\00:43:00.31
it's confirmed by world history.
00:43:00.34\00:43:02.61
But it ends with this idea
00:43:02.64\00:43:05.18
that the world is
going to go in a direction
00:43:05.21\00:43:08.02
of religious control
and enforcement of worship.
00:43:08.05\00:43:11.65
And I remember, this was
1984, I was brand new Christian.
00:43:11.69\00:43:15.59
And I remember
thinking in those days,
00:43:15.62\00:43:17.26
we were living under
the umbrella of communism.
00:43:17.29\00:43:20.30
I mean, it was huge.
00:43:20.33\00:43:21.66
USSR, they had more
tanks, they had more missiles,
00:43:21.70\00:43:24.27
they had nuclear submarine.
00:43:24.30\00:43:25.73
I mean, this was huge.
00:43:25.77\00:43:27.10
And in my mind,
I was challenged,
00:43:27.14\00:43:29.40
because I had seen
00:43:29.44\00:43:31.51
the prophetic
delineation of truth
00:43:31.54\00:43:34.54
match up with history.
00:43:34.58\00:43:35.91
But this idea
00:43:35.94\00:43:37.65
that was being
presented as a conclusion
00:43:37.68\00:43:39.85
didn't make sense to me.
00:43:39.88\00:43:41.22
There was no...
00:43:41.25\00:43:42.58
I just, "How is
this going to happen?"
00:43:42.62\00:43:44.52
And five years later,
and I set that up by faith,
00:43:44.55\00:43:46.69
I was like, "Okay,
the Word of God so far,
00:43:46.72\00:43:48.26
so far, so far, yes, yes, yes."
00:43:48.29\00:43:50.26
What I guess I'm trying to
say is that our viewers and we,
00:43:50.29\00:43:53.56
I think would agree
that while the Word of God
00:43:53.60\00:43:57.40
proves itself and
establishes itself,
00:43:57.43\00:43:59.13
there's still room for faith.
00:43:59.17\00:44:00.94
There's still room for questions
00:44:00.97\00:44:02.57
that haven't been
answered, and I had those.
00:44:02.60\00:44:04.47
I separated by faith.
00:44:04.51\00:44:06.21
And then in 1989,
00:44:06.24\00:44:09.14
in December of
1989, specifically...
00:44:09.18\00:44:11.31
I remember it.
00:44:11.35\00:44:12.68
When that wall came down
in all of those countries.
00:44:12.71\00:44:15.28
Boom! Boom! Boom!
00:44:15.32\00:44:16.65
I remember that.
00:44:16.69\00:44:18.02
When you're reborn?
00:44:18.05\00:44:19.39
I've seen it on TV.
00:44:19.42\00:44:20.76
When you're born, Jeffrey?
00:44:20.79\00:44:22.12
1982.
00:44:22.16\00:44:23.49
You can go to the
library and check this out.
00:44:23.53\00:44:24.86
1982.
00:44:24.89\00:44:26.23
You can go the library.
00:44:26.26\00:44:27.60
But I'm telling you...
00:44:27.63\00:44:28.96
I beat you in archives.
00:44:29.00\00:44:30.33
You can
actually come to my house
00:44:30.37\00:44:31.70
because I've got
all the documentation
00:44:31.73\00:44:33.07
because it was so faith.
00:44:33.10\00:44:34.44
I mean, my faith
soared, I went orbit,
00:44:34.47\00:44:35.80
I was out of the atmosphere.
00:44:35.84\00:44:37.17
When communism fell,
00:44:37.21\00:44:38.54
I said, "Wow, Bible
prophecy is incredible,
00:44:38.57\00:44:41.28
the Word of God."
00:44:41.31\00:44:42.64
And since that
time, I have a Bible
00:44:42.68\00:44:44.28
that was printed before 1985.
00:44:44.31\00:44:46.65
I bought it in 1985.
00:44:46.68\00:44:48.52
And people will say to me
about what the Word of God?
00:44:48.55\00:44:49.92
I'm not sure, I'm not sure.
00:44:49.95\00:44:51.29
I'm saying, let me just
share with you this prophecy.
00:44:51.32\00:44:52.85
This Bible is
actually printed before 1985.
00:44:52.89\00:44:55.22
And here's a prophecy
that was fulfilled in 1989.
00:44:55.26\00:44:57.79
And let me read you
the prophecy from the Bible
00:44:57.83\00:44:59.16
that was printed before 1985.
00:44:59.19\00:45:00.53
Of course, you
know, the Bible styles.
00:45:00.56\00:45:02.00
And now look at
how this was fulfilled.
00:45:02.03\00:45:04.70
Look at how it matches
up, isn't this incredible?
00:45:04.73\00:45:06.30
And they go, "Wow! Okay. Yes."
00:45:06.33\00:45:08.87
Powerful, make sense.
00:45:08.90\00:45:10.24
So that's more of
what we're referring to
00:45:10.27\00:45:13.61
as the prophetic
evidence that the Bible
00:45:13.64\00:45:17.48
is the Word of
God, because remember,
00:45:17.51\00:45:18.85
our question here
for this conversation
00:45:18.88\00:45:21.05
is simply, "Is the
Bible the Word of God?"
00:45:21.08\00:45:23.72
Is it?
00:45:23.75\00:45:25.09
We've talked about
the experiential aspect
00:45:25.12\00:45:27.46
of that question
00:45:27.49\00:45:29.16
and how each of us
00:45:29.19\00:45:30.53
have had an
experience with the Word of God.
00:45:30.56\00:45:31.89
Yes.
00:45:31.93\00:45:33.26
But now the prophetic...
00:45:33.29\00:45:35.16
And it ties in with historical.
00:45:35.20\00:45:36.56
It does. Yeah.
00:45:36.60\00:45:37.93
And then what
about the historical?
00:45:37.97\00:45:39.57
Jeffrey, you've spent
a lot of time with this
00:45:39.60\00:45:42.17
at the library, no doubt.
00:45:42.20\00:45:44.17
Since you love the library...
00:45:44.21\00:45:45.54
These times online.
00:45:45.57\00:45:46.91
But seriously, man,
00:45:46.94\00:45:48.28
what are some
historical evidences
00:45:48.31\00:45:52.68
for the Bible is the Word of God
00:45:52.71\00:45:54.18
that you've discovered?
00:45:54.22\00:45:55.55
I think one awesome thing
00:45:55.58\00:45:56.92
is the testimony of archaeology.
00:45:56.95\00:46:00.49
You know, the
speed is unearthing
00:46:00.52\00:46:03.79
a lot of what has
been recorded in Scripture
00:46:03.83\00:46:07.16
that is actually
legitimate history.
00:46:07.20\00:46:09.66
Because one of the main things
00:46:09.70\00:46:12.03
that we hear is the Bible
is a good moral book with good,
00:46:12.07\00:46:16.40
you know, moral counsel to life.
00:46:16.44\00:46:19.31
Yeah, do unto others,
00:46:19.34\00:46:20.68
turn the other
cheek, and so forth.
00:46:20.71\00:46:22.04
But it's not
actually literally historical.
00:46:22.08\00:46:25.98
You don't actually believe
00:46:26.01\00:46:27.35
that the things
that are recorded in here
00:46:27.38\00:46:28.72
actually took place.
00:46:28.75\00:46:30.09
So one of the things for
me that I find affirming,
00:46:30.12\00:46:33.09
in my confidence in Scripture
00:46:33.12\00:46:35.16
is the fact that there's so many
00:46:35.19\00:46:37.16
archaeological discoveries
00:46:37.19\00:46:38.86
that have corroborated
the claims of the Bible.
00:46:38.89\00:46:41.53
For example, it was
common throughout universities
00:46:41.56\00:46:46.37
to deny that David in
Scripture, King David...
00:46:46.40\00:46:51.07
Basically the central figure
00:46:51.11\00:46:52.44
of the Scripture of
the Old Testament...
00:46:52.47\00:46:53.81
Yeah.
00:46:53.84\00:46:55.18
That he even
existed, and that's a big deal
00:46:55.21\00:46:56.75
for what you just said,
00:46:56.78\00:46:58.11
and we're talking about a
central foundational figure.
00:46:58.15\00:47:00.25
And if he didn't
exist, a whole lot of stuff
00:47:00.28\00:47:03.05
recorded in the Bible is...
00:47:03.08\00:47:04.82
New Testament, Son of David.
00:47:04.85\00:47:06.19
Right, even the
identity of Jesus.
00:47:06.22\00:47:09.06
And then
there's a discovery made
00:47:09.09\00:47:10.99
in Northern Israel, Tel Dan,
00:47:11.03\00:47:15.66
in the archaeological
site called Tel Dan
00:47:15.70\00:47:17.90
where they
discovered a piece of stone
00:47:17.93\00:47:22.80
that literally is recording
00:47:22.84\00:47:25.34
different ancient
military conquest.
00:47:25.37\00:47:27.38
And it says, "From
the house of David."
00:47:27.41\00:47:31.31
And for the first
time, in modern times,
00:47:31.35\00:47:33.88
we have extra biblical evidence
00:47:33.92\00:47:38.05
that is evidence
outside of the Bible
00:47:38.09\00:47:40.29
that confirms that the
stories that you're reading
00:47:40.32\00:47:42.89
actually happened, right?
00:47:42.92\00:47:45.19
And there's this thing
called the Sennacherib Prism,
00:47:45.23\00:47:49.06
where all of these conquests
and wars in the Old Testament
00:47:49.10\00:47:51.80
between the
Assyrians and the Edomites,
00:47:51.83\00:47:54.07
and the Hittites
and the Amorites.
00:47:54.10\00:47:55.47
And now we have
stones that are records
00:47:55.50\00:47:59.91
from different
civilizations that were not even
00:47:59.94\00:48:02.58
the people of God,
00:48:02.61\00:48:03.95
that were not even Israelites
00:48:03.98\00:48:06.21
confirming what the
biblical historians,
00:48:06.25\00:48:09.15
inspired historians have taught.
00:48:09.18\00:48:10.65
So I find that compelling.
00:48:10.69\00:48:12.02
It is compelling.
00:48:12.05\00:48:13.39
I find that important,
00:48:13.42\00:48:14.76
because I need
to have confidence
00:48:14.79\00:48:16.76
that what I'm reading
is actually legitimately
00:48:16.79\00:48:19.49
true and real,
00:48:19.53\00:48:21.33
in order for me to confidently
00:48:21.36\00:48:24.37
apply the theological
implications to that, right?
00:48:24.40\00:48:26.50
Yeah.
00:48:26.53\00:48:27.87
So archaeology is
huge. I think that's huge.
00:48:27.90\00:48:31.27
And we can go on and on
and on. There's a lot of this.
00:48:31.31\00:48:33.38
I mean there's even a journal
biblical archaeology review,
00:48:33.41\00:48:36.61
that's published regularly.
00:48:36.64\00:48:38.71
So I mean,
there's stuff constantly
00:48:38.75\00:48:40.62
coming out from
that and there's over...
00:48:40.65\00:48:42.68
One scholar said,
there's over 25,000
00:48:42.72\00:48:47.39
archaeological discoveries,
some major, some minor
00:48:47.42\00:48:51.23
that corroborate
different details
00:48:51.26\00:48:53.60
of the biblical
historical record,
00:48:53.63\00:48:54.96
I think that's...
00:48:55.00\00:48:56.33
Okay, that's the point
I was going to bring out
00:48:56.36\00:48:57.70
is that it's not just
the individual situations
00:48:57.73\00:49:00.97
that take place there in Tel Dan
00:49:01.00\00:49:02.77
or some discovery of this people
00:49:02.80\00:49:04.51
or the mentioning of this name.
00:49:04.54\00:49:06.44
I remember a
number of years ago,
00:49:06.47\00:49:07.81
I read about
00:49:07.84\00:49:09.18
a particular piece of pottery
or something that was found
00:49:09.21\00:49:11.45
that looked to be like a receipt
00:49:11.48\00:49:13.55
that had to do
with Solomon's temple.
00:49:13.58\00:49:15.08
There you go.
00:49:15.12\00:49:16.45
And it's not just
these individuals sort of...
00:49:16.48\00:49:18.19
It's indirect. Yeah.
00:49:18.22\00:49:19.55
Exactly.
00:49:19.59\00:49:20.92
So here's the thing
that I find fascinating
00:49:20.96\00:49:22.29
is it the Bible
presents a whole story
00:49:22.32\00:49:25.53
about a time and a
culture and a people
00:49:25.56\00:49:28.36
in a certain
place, in a location,
00:49:28.40\00:49:30.23
and those people are there,
00:49:30.27\00:49:31.60
and there's a river
that flows like this.
00:49:31.63\00:49:32.97
And so there's a whole
picture that's painted.
00:49:33.00\00:49:35.84
Well, we have had centuries
now at least two good centuries
00:49:35.87\00:49:40.41
of biblical archaeology
00:49:40.44\00:49:42.24
or just archaeology,
just drop the biblical,
00:49:42.28\00:49:44.38
of archaeology
in the Middle East
00:49:44.41\00:49:46.88
to either
corroborate and confirm
00:49:46.92\00:49:49.15
this basic template
that's presented in Scripture
00:49:49.18\00:49:51.72
or to say, "What?
00:49:51.75\00:49:53.25
It's nothing like
that. Not at all."
00:49:53.29\00:49:55.29
And yet, what continues
to emerge is, as you say,
00:49:55.32\00:49:58.89
major and minor confirmations
00:49:58.93\00:50:01.53
of the basic picture
that's presented in Scripture.
00:50:01.56\00:50:05.03
Now, does that mean that
the Bible is the Word of God?
00:50:05.07\00:50:06.57
No, it could just
be a very accurate
00:50:06.60\00:50:08.80
historical
record of various times,
00:50:08.84\00:50:10.67
places, rivers, mountains...
00:50:10.71\00:50:12.51
Except for when you
add the prophetic part.
00:50:12.54\00:50:13.98
Except and then you
add the prophetic part.
00:50:14.01\00:50:16.31
And then for me,
00:50:16.34\00:50:17.68
I love the
prophetic part, by the way.
00:50:17.71\00:50:19.05
It was hugely influential
with me as well, James.
00:50:19.08\00:50:20.48
And I think the thing
that we need to say is,
00:50:20.52\00:50:22.48
what makes the
prophetic part so important
00:50:22.52\00:50:24.15
is that you have
to have, as you said,
00:50:24.19\00:50:25.92
foreknowledge,
there has to be somebody
00:50:25.95\00:50:28.02
who's saying in advance,
00:50:28.06\00:50:29.39
"Okay, this is
what's going to happen."
00:50:29.42\00:50:31.73
But for me, and maybe this
is a little too touchy feely,
00:50:31.76\00:50:34.13
I don't know but...
00:50:34.16\00:50:35.60
We'll tell you. I say
it this way, you tell me.
00:50:35.63\00:50:38.77
No one could
have invented Jesus.
00:50:38.80\00:50:42.60
Jesus defies invention.
00:50:42.64\00:50:44.91
If you were going to
create a Messiah figure,
00:50:44.94\00:50:47.74
I'll tell you right now,
00:50:47.78\00:50:49.11
if a human was
going to create a Messiah,
00:50:49.14\00:50:50.65
he doesn't look like this guy.
00:50:50.68\00:50:52.15
He's not saying
that, he's not doing that,
00:50:52.18\00:50:54.92
he's not acting like that.
00:50:54.95\00:50:56.62
Who writes this?
00:50:56.65\00:50:58.15
Even Jewish
people had a hard time
00:50:58.19\00:51:00.72
accepting Him as the Messiah.
00:51:00.76\00:51:02.09
And people, they would go
to Him and they would say,
00:51:02.12\00:51:03.93
on one occasion, there's a story
00:51:03.96\00:51:05.29
where people are
going to go arrest Jesus,
00:51:05.33\00:51:07.10
and they go to arrest Him.
00:51:07.13\00:51:08.46
And they're like,
"Well, we couldn't arrest Him."
00:51:08.50\00:51:09.93
"Well, why
couldn't you arrest Him?"
00:51:09.96\00:51:11.30
"Well, because
nobody talks like that."
00:51:11.33\00:51:12.93
Over and over
again, the point is made
00:51:12.97\00:51:15.34
that He didn't
speak like the rabbis,
00:51:15.37\00:51:17.34
He didn't speak
like the scribes,
00:51:17.37\00:51:18.71
He didn't speak
like the Pharisees.
00:51:18.74\00:51:20.08
And it's not just His words,
the way He carries Himself.
00:51:20.11\00:51:23.21
Many times He
holds in, you know,
00:51:23.24\00:51:26.98
respect the very people that
you would have thought, "Oh."
00:51:27.02\00:51:30.45
He's countercultural,
He's revolutionary,
00:51:30.49\00:51:34.09
He's tender, yet firm,
00:51:34.12\00:51:36.19
I just really believe that
00:51:36.22\00:51:38.33
He defies the ability to
have been written by Him.
00:51:38.36\00:51:43.63
That's a good point.
00:51:43.67\00:51:45.00
Ty, there's another
really important point here,
00:51:45.03\00:51:46.94
I think that we should make.
00:51:46.97\00:51:48.30
And that is that the
only way you can really
00:51:48.34\00:51:53.91
disregard this
compelling evidence
00:51:53.94\00:51:58.61
that we're
talking about prophetic
00:51:58.65\00:51:59.98
and historical accuracy is
00:52:00.02\00:52:01.95
by holding the Bible
as a historical document,
00:52:01.98\00:52:06.42
to a different kind of...
00:52:06.45\00:52:09.06
Standard.
00:52:09.09\00:52:10.43
Standard that we do
every other piece of history.
00:52:10.46\00:52:13.70
And there's a lot of research,
00:52:13.73\00:52:15.50
there's a lot of
literature on this.
00:52:15.53\00:52:17.47
And if you were
to take, for example,
00:52:17.50\00:52:19.03
the history of Greece,
00:52:19.07\00:52:20.47
everything we know
about Alexander the Great,
00:52:20.50\00:52:22.14
and the Greek wars and so forth,
00:52:22.17\00:52:24.21
you got two main players
is Thucydides and Herodotus,
00:52:24.24\00:52:27.84
these are Greek historians.
00:52:27.88\00:52:29.74
Everything we know
significantly about Greeks...
00:52:29.78\00:52:32.25
Almost everything.
Almost everything I should say.
00:52:32.28\00:52:33.88
These two guys,
these two main players,
00:52:33.92\00:52:35.32
then you have Rome
and you have Tacitus
00:52:35.35\00:52:37.22
the Roman historian.
00:52:37.25\00:52:40.32
The interesting thing is that
00:52:40.36\00:52:43.63
in terms of
historical reliability,
00:52:43.66\00:52:46.59
the New Testament and again,
there's a lot of literature,
00:52:46.63\00:52:49.06
I don't know how much
we want to get into this.
00:52:49.10\00:52:50.43
The New Testament is far
more significantly corroborated
00:52:50.47\00:52:53.60
than these other sources.
00:52:53.64\00:52:55.97
And if you look at
just the manuscripts,
00:52:56.00\00:52:59.34
we obviously don't
have any original doc,
00:52:59.37\00:53:01.21
we don't have
the original scroll
00:53:01.24\00:53:02.68
with the ink that came
00:53:02.71\00:53:04.05
from the Apostle
Paul or Moses himself.
00:53:04.08\00:53:06.41
We have copies of copies, right?
00:53:06.45\00:53:08.48
Manuscript copies.
00:53:08.52\00:53:09.85
And so too, with
Greek and Roman history,
00:53:09.88\00:53:11.49
but if you were
to take all of that,
00:53:11.52\00:53:13.39
and you were to compare it,
00:53:13.42\00:53:15.42
we have manuscripts
of the New Testament
00:53:15.46\00:53:20.13
that are much closer
to the original writing
00:53:20.16\00:53:23.87
than we do any event...
00:53:23.90\00:53:25.23
To event.
00:53:25.27\00:53:26.60
Yeah, any other
piece of history.
00:53:26.63\00:53:27.97
And yet, nobody questions
whether what was written
00:53:28.00\00:53:31.67
concerning Alexander the Great
00:53:31.71\00:53:33.24
is actually
historically reliable,
00:53:33.27\00:53:34.84
nobody questions that.
00:53:34.88\00:53:36.58
Nobody questions the writings
of the Roman historians.
00:53:36.61\00:53:39.45
And yet, when you
crack open the New Testament
00:53:39.48\00:53:41.75
immediately 1000
questions come up.
00:53:41.78\00:53:43.42
So you wonder, obviously,
00:53:43.45\00:53:45.29
it's because of the implications
00:53:45.32\00:53:46.65
of what is written here.
00:53:46.69\00:53:48.02
There's precedence.
00:53:48.06\00:53:49.39
But it's not
based on sheer history.
00:53:49.42\00:53:50.76
It's just, it's biased.
00:53:50.79\00:53:52.59
I want to just add one
small point of clarification.
00:53:52.63\00:53:54.30
And that is to say
that it's not the case
00:53:54.33\00:53:56.43
that in academic circles
that people aren't evaluating
00:53:56.46\00:53:59.37
and being
analytical about the things
00:53:59.40\00:54:01.84
that were written
about Alexander or Rome,
00:54:01.87\00:54:04.17
whatever that is happening.
00:54:04.21\00:54:05.54
But under the
assumption of a basic sense
00:54:05.57\00:54:08.44
of the overall reliability
of the picture that we have.
00:54:08.48\00:54:12.51
In other words,
like, yeah, they're saying,
00:54:12.55\00:54:13.88
"Okay, what about this?"
00:54:13.92\00:54:15.25
But when Scripture
because of the implications,
00:54:15.28\00:54:18.29
if Jesus was...
00:54:18.32\00:54:19.65
Who He said He was...
00:54:19.69\00:54:21.02
Who He said he was,
00:54:21.06\00:54:22.39
because there's plenty of
extra biblical confirmation
00:54:22.42\00:54:23.76
that this guy existed.
00:54:23.79\00:54:25.13
In fact, there's
a guy, John Dixon.
00:54:25.16\00:54:26.49
John Dixon's a
fairly well-known,
00:54:26.53\00:54:28.60
increasingly well-known
historian, Christian historian,
00:54:28.63\00:54:31.97
and philosopher of history,
00:54:32.00\00:54:33.34
and he has said repeatedly
00:54:33.37\00:54:35.27
that if you can show one
single credible historian
00:54:35.30\00:54:40.11
from a credible university
00:54:40.14\00:54:41.64
that denies on
historical grounds
00:54:41.68\00:54:44.38
that Jesus existed,
00:54:44.41\00:54:45.75
he will eat several
pages from his Bible.
00:54:45.78\00:54:49.05
In other words, he's
issued this as a challenge
00:54:49.08\00:54:51.69
to secular thinking about Jesus.
00:54:51.72\00:54:54.89
He's saying, "Wait a minute."
00:54:54.92\00:54:56.26
Nobody in the great
universities of the world
00:54:56.29\00:54:59.83
denies that a guy named
Jesus lived at about this time,
00:54:59.86\00:55:03.37
lived under these
circumstances was crucified,
00:55:03.40\00:55:05.90
you know, under
these, in other words,
00:55:05.93\00:55:07.27
there's these extra
biblical confirmations
00:55:07.30\00:55:09.37
of the basic biblical picture.
00:55:09.40\00:55:11.84
And so you start assembling
and amassing this data,
00:55:11.87\00:55:15.28
the prophetic, the
uniqueness of Jesus,
00:55:15.31\00:55:17.95
the experiential,
00:55:17.98\00:55:19.31
the historical, the
manual scriptural data,
00:55:19.35\00:55:22.05
and what we can say, it's
not proved mathematically,
00:55:22.08\00:55:25.52
it's not proved,
00:55:25.55\00:55:27.62
like you're
compelled now to believe
00:55:27.66\00:55:30.09
and you cannot believe.
00:55:30.13\00:55:31.49
You know, there's
still the element of faith
00:55:31.53\00:55:33.19
that you can say
00:55:33.23\00:55:34.70
that there is
good reason to believe.
00:55:34.73\00:55:38.20
Yeah, beyond
reasonable doubt. Yeah, yeah.
00:55:38.23\00:55:40.34
That's a good way of
saying. Beyond reasonable doubt.
00:55:40.37\00:55:41.70
I like what
Jeff was saying, too,
00:55:41.74\00:55:43.07
because the prejudice is there,
00:55:43.10\00:55:44.67
so much so that if
I was to take and say,
00:55:44.71\00:55:46.68
"Okay, this is
the Book of Matthew,
00:55:46.71\00:55:48.04
this is the Book of
Mark, this is the Book of Luke,
00:55:48.08\00:55:49.71
this is the Book of John, okay?"
00:55:49.74\00:55:51.55
The critics want to
tear these books apart,
00:55:51.58\00:55:53.08
for example, and say, "Well,
they contradict each other."
00:55:53.11\00:55:55.82
One person says,
there was two demoniacs
00:55:55.85\00:55:57.69
and other says,
there's one demoniac.
00:55:57.72\00:55:59.45
There's contradiction
between these and so we can't,
00:55:59.49\00:56:02.32
the Bible isn't reliable.
00:56:02.36\00:56:04.13
But really, that contradiction
is actually confirmation
00:56:04.16\00:56:07.10
that these guys
are all together.
00:56:07.13\00:56:08.76
They all belong together,
00:56:08.80\00:56:10.13
because they prove
that there's no conspiracy
00:56:10.17\00:56:13.00
among the authors.
00:56:13.03\00:56:15.07
"Oh, you got to say
the same thing, I said.
00:56:15.10\00:56:16.64
You need to say
same thing we're saying
00:56:16.67\00:56:18.01
and you need to
say the same thing."
00:56:18.04\00:56:19.37
Which would
actually make them suspect.
00:56:19.41\00:56:20.74
Yeah. Yes.
00:56:20.78\00:56:22.11
Yeah, yeah.
Collusion, it's called.
00:56:22.14\00:56:23.48
That's such a
good point. That's it.
00:56:23.51\00:56:24.85
I love that point.
00:56:24.88\00:56:26.21
That there's just
enough differentiation
00:56:26.25\00:56:27.58
to not smack of
conspiracy or collusion,
00:56:27.62\00:56:29.68
but the story that's
told is consistent enough
00:56:29.72\00:56:32.82
that they say,
the Jesus of Matthew,
00:56:32.85\00:56:34.56
"Hey, that looks just
like the Jesus of Mark,
00:56:34.59\00:56:36.06
that looks just
like the Jesus of Luke,
00:56:36.09\00:56:37.43
that looks just
like that Jesus of..."
00:56:37.46\00:56:38.79
It's maximum authentic
report. It looks authentic.
00:56:38.83\00:56:40.60
It's authentic. Yeah.
00:56:40.63\00:56:41.96
And back to the point you
were making earlier, David,
00:56:42.00\00:56:44.87
the fact is that there's
a self-evident truth quality
00:56:44.90\00:56:50.51
to Scripture.
00:56:50.54\00:56:51.97
And Jesus is the pinnacle
00:56:52.01\00:56:54.31
of that
self-evident truth quality.
00:56:54.34\00:56:56.85
You can't imagine human
beings manufacturing a story
00:56:56.88\00:57:02.42
that completely
turns on its head
00:57:02.45\00:57:05.19
and inside out
00:57:05.22\00:57:06.55
all the value
systems of the world.
00:57:06.59\00:57:08.89
Friedrich
Nietzsche, for example,
00:57:08.92\00:57:10.93
famous atheists
who basically gave us
00:57:10.96\00:57:14.30
the God is dead idea.
00:57:14.33\00:57:17.30
He looked at Jesus
and he was an unbeliever.
00:57:17.33\00:57:19.53
And he said that
this Jesus person
00:57:19.57\00:57:22.80
represents the transvaluation
of all systems of thought
00:57:22.84\00:57:28.38
in the world.
00:57:28.41\00:57:29.74
You have this idea
00:57:29.78\00:57:31.81
that the most powerful
person in the universe,
00:57:31.85\00:57:34.12
God has come all the
way down and is crucified.
00:57:34.15\00:57:38.35
If it's left to
human beings to come up
00:57:38.39\00:57:39.99
with a story that's believable,
00:57:40.02\00:57:41.36
we're coming up
with Zeus and Ishtar,
00:57:41.39\00:57:43.73
and powerful muscle bound gods
00:57:43.76\00:57:46.26
who are going to do some damage.
00:57:46.29\00:57:47.63
But all of sudden...
00:57:47.66\00:57:49.00
Who sounded lot like us? Yeah.
00:57:49.03\00:57:50.37
Yeah, but all of a
sudden, you have an anti-king,
00:57:50.40\00:57:53.97
you have one who is
exercising anti-power,
00:57:54.00\00:57:57.91
you have a demonstration
00:57:57.94\00:57:59.44
of an
irresistible quality of love,
00:57:59.47\00:58:02.78
that we find resonant
00:58:02.81\00:58:04.81
with what we would like
to see in a powerful person.
00:58:04.85\00:58:07.42
We would like to see
the most powerful person
00:58:07.45\00:58:10.15
in the universe,
00:58:10.19\00:58:11.69
winning our respect
00:58:11.72\00:58:14.06
and our adoration by
virtue of humbly serving
00:58:14.09\00:58:17.26
rather than dominating.
00:58:17.29\00:58:18.89
And that's what we
see going on in Jesus.
00:58:18.93\00:58:20.53
It's absolutely self-evident
00:58:20.56\00:58:23.73
that there's something going
on in this person, Jesus Christ
00:58:23.77\00:58:27.34
that we don't see
anywhere else in history.
00:58:27.37\00:58:31.11
And so that
brings us full circle,
00:58:31.14\00:58:33.14
back to the fact
that beyond all the data,
00:58:33.17\00:58:36.31
the archaeology,
00:58:36.34\00:58:38.18
the facts that
are pretty persuasive,
00:58:38.21\00:58:41.18
we believe because
there's good reason to believe,
00:58:41.22\00:58:44.69
because in Jesus we see
something that's believable.
00:58:44.72\00:58:47.99
Beautiful. Amen.
00:58:48.02\00:58:49.36