Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000027A
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00:20 Man, I am really excited to be back together for table talk.
00:23 This is season 3 and we've had a great response. 00:27 Lot of people telling us that they are enjoying 00:30 the format of considering biblical topics 00:33 in a conversational format rather than a preacher 00:36 with a Bible at a pulpit. 00:38 This is just really how conversations occur 00:43 in people's everyday lives 00:45 and a lot of individuals have been telling us, 00:48 we're just we're growing spiritually 00:51 by sitting in on the conversation 00:54 and some people have been saying 00:56 that this has stimulated for them 00:58 small groups in their towns and their churches 01:01 where they're getting together 01:02 now and saying, hey, let's just do that. 01:04 Let's just sit around a table 01:06 and let's just bring up topics 01:08 and let's just talk it through 01:09 and see what the Bible has to say about it, 01:11 whatever it is that we're interested. 01:12 Excellent. 01:14 Yeah, this is going to be fun though. 01:15 We're going to be delving into 01:16 because we've talked about this, 01:18 we've prayed about it, 01:19 what should we do in the season 3 01:21 and we came to a consensus that it would really be fun, 01:26 and just helpful and for us 01:30 and others and challenging 01:32 to do a series called Hard Questions. 01:35 And so what we've done 01:36 is we've come to a list of questions 01:40 we had actually more than 13 programs would accommodate. 01:44 But we came up with 13 questions 01:47 that we believe 01:48 are some of the most challenging questions 01:51 that people not just ask, but people in general, 01:53 these things pop into people's heads, 01:55 People want to believe in God. 01:57 They want to believe what Scripture declares, 02:00 but God gave us minds to reason with, 02:02 He wants us to think. 02:04 And we're not asked to leap into a kind of blind faith. 02:09 I like to think that faith is one of our rational, 02:14 and at the same time 02:15 we're not pretending to offer squeaky clean answers either. 02:18 I think I read somewhere I forget where, 02:20 where it's, it's unfair for us 02:23 to ask hard, difficult questions 02:25 and expect easy answers. 02:27 Right. Right. 02:28 So we're going to ask hard, difficult questions. 02:30 We have to be willing to wrestle with the messiness 02:33 of some of the answers. 02:35 They're not all clean. 02:36 They're not all simple or easy. 02:39 And recognize that even our best efforts 02:44 to answer some of these difficult questions 02:47 will come short of really filling it out 02:52 with every detail we don't know. 02:54 And being honest that 02:56 we don't know like you said, right? 02:57 Well, it's okay to say things. 02:59 Some things are clear and some things are not. 03:01 You take the nature of the things 03:03 that we are seeking, 03:04 we're not in answering and asking difficult questions 03:07 about politics or economics. 03:09 That's the human realm. 03:11 That's something that is understandable, 03:12 discernible, graspable. 03:14 We're talking about difficult things 03:16 related to God, to Scripture, 03:18 there is an infinity beyond 03:20 what we will talk about at the table. 03:22 In other words, we're just, you know, you say, 03:24 we're wrestling, we are wrestling, 03:25 but we're just scratching in some instances, 03:27 you know, the tip of the iceberg, 03:29 and there's an infinity beyond and at some point, 03:31 and at some places in the conversation, 03:33 it's very appropriate just to say, 03:35 we don't know, 03:37 we think that the answer is in that direction. 03:40 We've got good reason to believe 03:41 it's over there somewhere. 03:42 But as far as the specifics, 03:44 we will have to say in the course of this series, 03:48 that's the best answer 03:49 that we can give with the information 03:51 that we have. 03:52 And coming up with a title, 03:53 we actually considered calling it 03:55 not the hard questions series, but the grappling series. 03:58 I mean, we seriously thought well, maybe, yeah, 04:01 maybe that's the best we can do is grapple but, 04:03 but at the same time, I want to say this. 04:06 God is here to communicate, so we can gain clarity. 04:10 We can gain sufficient clarity for things. 04:12 That's right. Absolutely. 04:14 And that's a beautiful thing. 04:15 We don't have all the answers. 04:17 But Scripture is very illuminating. 04:20 Yeah, there's enough certainty 04:22 to help us wake up every morning 04:24 with certain question marks. 04:26 But there's enough certainty 04:28 to make life meaningful and allow us 04:30 to live meaningfully right? 04:32 Just this weekend, 04:34 I was riding with Jeffrey's wife Mariana 04:36 and we were going to church 04:38 and on the way to church, 04:39 and she actually was bringing soup to church 04:41 and it spilled all over his car. 04:43 I joked that it actually increased the value of his car, 04:45 if you've seen the car he drives it. 04:47 It actually increased the value of his car. 04:49 It's true. 04:50 But anyway, in the course of that conversation, 04:52 Jeffrey's wife's mother 04:53 as we know has just recently passed away, 04:55 about a year ago now, isn't it? 04:57 And we were talking about you know how she, 04:59 that was not an easy thing for her, 05:01 you know, her mother was quite young, 05:03 died of cancer. 05:04 And she was talking about how she actually ended up 05:07 in a bit of a funk, 05:09 a bit of a spiritual depressive state 05:11 that she herself wasn't even aware 05:13 that she was in. 05:14 And in the course of the conversation 05:15 that we had this weekend, 05:17 I said, you know, one of the trickiest things is, 05:19 is that we're almost programmed when we believe in Scripture, 05:22 and when we have faith in Christ, 05:24 to think that anything short of certainty 05:26 is almost like borderline sinful. 05:29 That if we don't know absolutely 05:30 for certain the answer to every question 05:32 that we're being, we're lacking faith, 05:34 we're doubting, 05:36 and the truth is that 05:38 we can turn certainty into an idol. 05:40 We can turn certainty into something that 05:42 if we don't know and anything short of that is considered, 05:45 where's your faith, but it's not like that. 05:47 Even the prophets 05:48 will eventually get into Scripture, 05:51 but even the prophets in Scripture, like the psalms. 05:54 There you go. 05:55 Some of the communication 05:57 and even some of the prayers 05:59 are just like an extreme expression of like, 06:02 I don't get it what's happening God, 06:04 why, why, why. 06:05 I read a paraphrase recently of Psalm, 06:07 I think it's Psalm 80, 06:08 and the Psalmist is literally saying, God, are you blind? 06:11 Yeah. Are you deaf? 06:12 Yeah. Can you hear us? 06:14 Can't You hear what I'm saying? 06:15 Job has the same testimony. Absolutely. 06:17 This is as if God likes that though that's authentic, 06:19 that's raw humanity 06:20 and He doesn't want us to just. 06:22 He'd rather us to be honest than pretentious 06:24 about what we're going through. 06:25 You guys, this just came to my mind. 06:27 I don't know if you've ever thought about it 06:28 in this connection. 06:30 But 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 06:32 actually says, you'll remember 06:34 where Paul's talking about when I was a child, 06:36 I spoke as a child, 06:37 I thought as a child and then he says, 06:40 we prophesy in part. 06:43 So even the Bible where prophets, 06:48 human beings are inspired, 06:50 are writing out what God shows them by inspiration, 06:55 and yet you come to the New Testament 06:57 and Paul looks at the Old Testament scriptures 06:59 that were at his disposal and says that's partial. 07:02 We prophesy partially, I mean, there's more. 07:06 The human dynamic is there. 07:07 Yeah, the human dynamic is there. 07:09 The fingerprint is there and it's... 07:11 And as I said, there's an infinity beyond. 07:12 It's the iceberg thing, isn't it? 07:14 You know, we're wrestling with what's above the water. 07:16 But when we're talking about the things of God, 07:18 the things of Scripture, the things of eternity, 07:21 there is nine tenths or more, 07:23 far more than that is beneath the surface 07:26 and yet what I love what Jeffrey said, 07:28 that doesn't mean that 07:30 there can't be a modicum of certainty. 07:32 It doesn't mean that we are just groping 07:34 in the darkness blindly. 07:36 No, we're going to see 07:37 that there are some really compelling persuasive answers 07:40 to these hard questions. 07:42 They're not all as clean and as nice and as, 07:44 as simple as we'd love them to be. 07:45 But that's the nature of reality. 07:47 Life is messy. It's complex. 07:49 Yeah, I just last night, 07:51 and you know who I'm talking about 07:53 if I said her name. 07:55 A friend of mine called last night, 07:57 we were on the phone 07:58 for quite a long period of time. 08:00 And this is where the rubber meets the road. 08:02 She called and you can hear her voice quivering. 08:05 She's on the verge of tears. 08:07 She says, I need to know 08:12 that there is light at the end of this tunnel. 08:15 My husband right now is in the throes 08:20 of descending into mental illness 08:23 and I don't know what to do. 08:25 We have children. 08:26 This is their father, this is my husband. 08:29 And she's crying out, 08:31 not just to a brother in Christ, 08:33 you know, calling me, 08:34 she's crying out to God and saying, God, 08:36 and one of the things 08:38 she said in the course of the conversation, 08:39 is she said, "Ty, I don't get it. 08:43 We love God, we were serving Him." 08:46 And she said, this is what she said to me, 08:48 she said, "The Bible, 08:49 doesn't the Bible somewhere say 08:51 that God won't put anything on us 08:53 that we can't bear. 08:54 He won't try us beyond 08:56 what we're capable of bearing." 08:58 And this is what she said to me 08:59 and in all honesty she said, 09:00 "That's not true. I'm there. 09:02 I'm past that point. 09:03 I'm about to break. 09:05 I don't know what to do, 09:08 where can I turn," 09:09 and people have that kind of situations. 09:13 Well, that segues exactly into what we want to address 09:16 as our first hard question 09:18 and that is when people are pushed, 09:19 even when people aren't pushed, 09:21 but when they are pushed to the place 09:22 beyond which they feel like 09:24 they can't endure the vicissitudes of life, 09:26 they begin to ask this question, 09:28 is God even there? 09:29 Does God exist? Yeah. 09:30 It's because maybe he's not 09:32 and we would be not true 09:35 to the reality that exists outside of churches 09:38 if we didn't admit that there are millions, 09:42 tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people 09:44 that want to believe. 09:46 Yeah. 09:47 But are waiting and looking 09:48 for some sort of credible answer 09:51 that's beyond just, well, 09:52 it makes me feel good 09:53 or everybody in my church 09:55 says that that's the truths... 09:56 I was raised that way. 09:59 So that's merely cultural you mean, 10:01 so that the answers are kind of built 10:03 into your upbringing and then real life unfolds 10:07 and you start to say, 10:09 those answers that I was given aren't matching up 10:13 with how difficult this experience is. 10:15 Okay, I wanna say something about that. 10:18 There is a difference though 10:19 between the way that Scripture presents God 10:22 and His relationship to humanity 10:24 and the vicissitudes, and difficulties, 10:25 and trials of life, 10:27 and the way the church often presents it. 10:29 The way that it's too often communicated, 10:31 it reminds me of an Andrew Gullahorn song 10:33 about how it's just so easy and the preacher stands up 10:36 and he's got beautiful hair and a tie. 10:38 And you know that 10:40 everything looks great in the choir, 10:41 and it's just too nice. 10:42 And answers are too easy. 10:44 And then people don't live in church. 10:45 They live in reality. 10:46 They go home, and they go home 10:48 and their husband is going through a difficult trial 10:50 or there's more money than there is 10:52 or more month than there is money 10:53 or you got cancer or whatever. 10:56 So the reality is, 10:57 is that too often in church situations, 11:00 in cultural situations, and just as Christians, 11:02 we are inclined I think to make the answers easier 11:07 and more platitudinous 11:08 than what Scripture does, 11:09 like you were saying, you know, 11:11 David's like what? 11:12 Hello, what's going on? 11:14 There's something else I think is important 11:15 where I think about the question, 11:16 does God exist? 11:18 I think another way we can ask that question is, 11:20 does love exists? 11:22 There you go. 11:23 Because love is the definition for God. 11:26 According to the Bible, love is the definition for God. 11:28 And when you look at the hardships, 11:31 and the trials, and the difficulties 11:33 that people are going through in their lives, 11:35 that's really the question they're asking. 11:37 There people were built for love 11:39 and people are looking for love 11:41 and when life decimates you, 11:42 when husbands and wives go through these major trials, 11:45 and children, and grandparents 11:47 when humanity is decimated by evil, 11:50 people are asking the question, 11:51 even beyond this idea of that we addressing the question, 11:54 well, does love exists? 11:55 There you go. 11:57 And that's why people say, Well, if God is love, 11:58 then why is all this thing happening? 11:59 'Cause they're looking or this, 12:01 they're looking for love 12:02 and they're looking for a sense 12:04 of what love is and how it functions 12:06 in this situation. 12:07 Yeah, in their situation. 12:09 I love the language that you use there, James, 12:10 decimated by life. 12:12 And let's be honest, like, I'm happy today, 12:14 you know, I woke up even though it was raining outside. 12:16 I mean, I've got a beautiful wife, 12:17 I've got two children. 12:18 You know, I've got a roof over my head and food to eat. 12:20 But in a moment, one cancer test, 12:23 one car accident, 12:24 you know, one chemical imbalance in your brain 12:27 and you can be, as you say, decimated by life. 12:30 It's fragile. Life is fragile. 12:32 So these, I don't know, maybe this will segue us. 12:37 You mentioned the question. 12:39 Does God exist or does love exist? 12:41 It seems to me at least. 12:44 The way I relate to this is that 12:45 there's two levels of questions or answers. 12:48 There's the intellectual, 12:50 there's your brain and then there's your heart. 12:53 Right. Right. 12:55 So we, no one's going to be satisfied 12:57 with just brainy answers. 13:00 Right? 13:01 Stuff that just makes logical sense, 13:03 we also need to... 13:05 We need something to cling to with our hearts, 13:07 at the same time to simply focus 13:10 on the emotional answers 13:12 without the intellectual foundation 13:15 makes those answers flimsy. 13:17 The two need to intersect, right? 13:19 There needs to be an intersection 13:21 between rational answers 13:23 and experiential answers, right? 13:25 Absolutely, yeah. 13:27 They both need to come together somehow. 13:28 Yeah, let me ask you guys, 13:30 every one of us here at the table, 13:31 we're all converts to the faith. 13:33 We've all become followers of Jesus. 13:35 We weren't raised in strong Christian homes. 13:37 I don't think, is that right? 13:39 I was raised in a Christian home, 13:40 but not really knowing God or knowing the Bible. 13:42 Okay, that still apply. 13:43 So let me ask you this question. 13:45 Maybe it's too simple of a question. 13:46 And if it is, just shut the question down. 13:48 What was it that originally 13:50 sort of began to open to your awareness? 13:53 Hey, there is a God, He is good. 13:55 In other words, the question is, 13:56 was it primarily intellectual or was it some emotional thing? 14:00 Well for me, at the most basic level, 14:04 I had a really pretty girlfriend 14:05 who believed in God. 14:08 Ladies and gentlemen, Ty Gibson. 14:11 And I had a really lovely mother, 14:14 who began to believe in God. 14:15 Beautiful. 14:16 And I was one of those teenage kids 14:19 who had a particularly high level of fondness 14:22 for my mom, 14:23 and I had a lot of respect for her 14:25 and the fact that she found belief in God 14:29 tenable made me stop and wonder. 14:32 And then when my girlfriend said, 14:34 I believed in God ever since I believed anything. 14:37 And then my mom and my girlfriend, 14:39 by the way the girlfriend became my wife, 14:41 but when they began studying the Bible together, 14:44 I thought, I respect them. 14:47 I love them. They're intelligent. 14:50 This seems really idiotic. 14:51 I don't know how they could believe such things. 14:54 But I began to think, hmm, 14:56 if they see something in this, 14:58 maybe I should explore it at least, 15:01 if for no other reason, 15:02 just so I can rationalize with them 15:04 and show them that it's ridiculous. 15:07 Turns out, it's not ridiculous. 15:09 Turns out for me anyway that very simplistic mom, 15:14 girlfriend conspiring together against me in my favor. 15:19 Yeah, it turns out that 15:22 that very simple encounter 15:24 led me to ask some of the very hard questions 15:28 that we're going to explore in this 13 part series 15:31 and I have to tell you, there is a rational basis 15:35 for believing in the existence of God. 15:37 It's not emotional, it's not just cultural 15:39 telling you what some of the things 15:41 that we're about to unpack here are pretty persuasive. 15:44 Because God expects us to use our brains, right? 15:47 God doesn't expect us to put our brains on the shelf 15:49 in order to believe. 15:51 In fact, Scripture says 15:53 and you can't really believe responsibly 15:54 without using and engaging your mind 15:56 and your intellect. I think... 15:57 What about you guys the question David asked? 15:59 To me it's more similar, 16:01 I mean, I can't say it was all logical arguments. 16:05 It wasn't, right? 16:06 I was drawn because I sensed 16:09 that there was meaning and purpose. 16:11 I encountered Scripture 16:12 and I encountered meaning and purpose in the gospel. 16:15 So it totally conquered my heart 16:17 when I always tell people, 16:19 I stayed 16:20 because it also conquered my mind. 16:24 So I was drawn because it conquered my heart, 16:27 but I stayed in the relationship, 16:29 "because..." 16:31 It made sense. 16:32 Yeah, what I believed in my heart 16:33 made sense in my mind. 16:35 So I think it's been a journey on that basically. 16:39 Have you heard that little thing that people say, 16:41 the greatest distance in the world is 18 inches, 16:43 the distance between a man's or a woman's 16:45 or man's their mind and their heart. 16:48 Or vice versa, some people are more emotionally geared, 16:52 and their journey begins with heart issues 16:55 and gets into the mind. 16:56 Other people are more intellectually wired 16:59 and it begins with the mind 17:01 and it's a little more difficult to get... 17:03 It's little hard. 17:04 For those it's opposite, 17:06 if they don't engage their heart 17:07 so what keeps them is engaging their heart. 17:09 Yeah, yeah. 17:11 That's why I like David in the Bible. 17:13 He was a man after God's own heart 17:14 and when you look at his life, 17:16 he was like this perfect equilibrium 17:18 between intellect and emotion. 17:21 He was a poet, but he was also a warrior. 17:26 Yeah, for me, I think it was more 17:27 of an experiential thing. 17:29 I was raised in a Christian home, 17:31 you know, so to speak, saying prayers, 17:34 going to church. 17:35 But in my teenage years, 17:36 I was just out in the world 17:38 and I was seeking happiness, 17:39 I was seeking joy, I was seeking satisfaction, 17:41 fulfillment in the things of the world 17:44 and I was empty, empty inside, 17:46 I didn't have this love, 17:48 I didn't have this experimental reality 17:52 that I knew this experience in reality 17:54 that I knew, I really needed. 17:56 Yeah. 17:57 I was looking for it in friends, 17:58 I was looking for it in life, 18:00 I was looking for it in success, 18:01 I was looking for satisfaction for love 18:02 for feeling something that I knew 18:04 I was made for. 18:06 And I just went down, down, down, down. 18:08 And when I got to the very bottom, 18:10 I realized just by asking Christ 18:13 to come into my heart, 18:14 I realized and experienced a peace 18:16 that I think millions, 18:19 if not billions of people have experienced 18:20 on a level that is practical, 18:23 that causes them to think 18:24 and believe that God is real and the Bible is real. 18:28 Peace that He offers is real 18:29 because it's outside of everything else 18:31 that it was outside of everything else 18:33 I've ever experienced. 18:34 It was something that was totally supernatural, 18:38 in a very real sense, became practical in my life. 18:40 There was a peace, joy, 18:43 there was a relief from guilt, 18:45 and it started affecting me 18:48 and impacting me in my relationship 18:49 with myself with other people in the way that I lived 18:52 and the choices that I made and that to me, 18:55 that was before the Bible ever came into being. 18:57 I didn't know the Bible. 18:58 I knew the Lord's prayers, 19:00 I did every night whether I was drunk or sober. 19:01 I'd say, Our Father and Hail Mary 19:03 but before I ever really got into the Word of God, 19:06 I accepted Christ as my Savior. 19:08 Someone told me to do, pray this prayer, 19:10 and I experienced peace and joy 19:12 before the intellectual understanding 19:15 of what I was doing even hit my head. 19:16 Wow. 19:18 It was a whole heart experience. 19:19 But it would have been like Jeffrey's 19:21 then so later then you come to be aware 19:22 of the great arguments or principles upon 19:26 which intellectual confidence is built. 19:29 I am taking this thing that I've experienced, 19:31 this love, this forgiveness I experienced, 19:33 and I'm pursuing it to its source 19:36 and its source is in the Bible, 19:37 thinking, wow, that's it. 19:39 And what I'm finding in the Bible 19:40 matches up with the experience I've just had. 19:42 Wow. Yeah. 19:43 Powerful. 19:44 Well, my experience was very similar to that. 19:46 What was yours? 19:47 Well, just being at the bottom 19:49 and needing some sort of sense of purpose 19:52 of I'm a very upbeat, very buoyant person, 19:55 but at the time in my life when I was about 23, 19:58 it was a period of just deep personal difficulty 20:01 caused by the ending of a relationship. 20:03 So yours it's interesting, 20:04 your starts a relationship 20:05 and this is like a good thing, 20:07 with mine it was the opposite, 20:08 but it was exactly as you described that, 20:10 that it started off that I just invited Jesus 20:13 into my heart, 20:14 and all of a sudden all these things start happening. 20:16 I'm like, whoa 20:17 and then it's like, well, wait a minute, 20:19 is this true or not? 20:20 I think it's true. 20:21 And then it goes to what you're saying. 20:23 You tracing to his story. 20:24 I like the way you say that tracing to his story. 20:25 Have you guys ever read this? 20:27 I can't remember maybe you know the source. 20:28 But there's a Christian philosopher 20:31 who said, 20:33 I believe in order that I might understand. 20:36 Augustine. 20:38 Yeah, and that's exactly what you guys are describing. 20:40 You gave your heart to Christ 20:42 and then the intellectual horizon opened up. 20:46 Faith seeking and understand it. 20:47 Yeah. 20:48 So you began with an experiential thing 20:51 that grew into an intellectual 20:53 and rational process and so, 20:56 yeah, there are a lot of people I think, 20:58 who if they simply look at the data 21:03 and the facts and they find fault 21:08 in the storyline of Scripture, 21:12 it's just academic and they'll never move on. 21:14 But if you begin with the premise 21:16 of wait a minute, 21:17 my heart is telling me that there is a love to be had, 21:22 there is a perfection of beauty 21:25 out there somewhere that I long for? 21:28 Well, just taking that step of initial faith, 21:31 then you start to see things you wouldn't see otherwise. 21:34 When we come back after the break, 21:36 I've got a point on that 21:38 that I think is really persuasive. 21:40 So let's just, 21:41 yeah, let's just pause, take a break 21:43 and we'll come right back. 21:55 This is the story of Nyima 21:58 who took a bus to the doctor 22:00 and found a piece of paper with words of hope about Jesus, 22:05 which was left by a church member 22:07 who unpacked a box that came from a truck, 22:10 which drove in from Durban 22:12 where ship was docked, 22:14 then it sailed from Seattle, loaded with containers 22:18 stacked high with millions of tracts, 22:21 tracked in from the Light Bearers Publishing House 22:24 where within 600 million pieces of gospel literature 22:28 have been printed in 42 languages. 22:31 Here's the amazing thing. 22:33 Light Bearers distribute this literature free of charge 22:36 all over the world and each piece cost 22:40 only five pennies to print, transport and deliver. 22:45 Every day, millions of people buy a $5 cup of coffee, 22:50 $5 a cup, five days a week. 22:53 It adds up fast, 22:55 but at just five cents a piece 22:58 that same $25 can also ship 500 pieces of literature 23:03 and give hope to people like Nyima 23:07 who shared that paper with a classmate 23:10 who gave it to her cousin, 23:12 who shared it with his boss, 23:14 who passed it to her grandmother, 23:16 who left it on another bus, 23:19 where it will be found by someone else 23:22 and the story continues. 23:26 Five cents doesn't buy a lot these days. 23:29 But in other parts of the world, 23:31 your nickel could change someone's life. 23:34 Your gift of $25 a month 23:36 sends out 6,000 pieces of gospel literature each year. 23:40 $50 sends out 12,000 23:43 and $100 a month 23:45 sends out 24,000 messages of hope 23:48 every year, all over the world. 23:52 Empower Light Bearers to continue the story. 23:56 Send your gift through lightbearers.org 23:58 or by calling 877-585-1111. 24:04 Who knew five little pennies could do so much. 24:14 So at the close of the first little conversation 24:17 that we had there, we were talking about how for, 24:20 I think all of us and certainly for many people, 24:23 there's this initial sort of experiential heart moment, 24:27 but then there's the, okay, is this true 24:29 or if I just kind of tricked myself? 24:31 And I was thinking about, 24:33 I had said something that I wanted to make a point 24:35 and that is that it was several years ago, 24:38 actually, in a series of lectures by Dr. John Lennox. 24:40 I heard him say that 24:42 the word skeptic actually comes from the Greek word skepton 24:47 which means to view or to observe from a distance. 24:52 Right, so to be over here, 24:53 and to be skeptical, 24:54 to be aloof from, non committal about something. 24:57 And the point that he made 24:58 and I thought it was so profound was, 25:00 that if God was just an idea 25:02 or a concept or a philosophy, right, 25:04 like an economic idea or a political philosophy, 25:07 you could be aloof from it, 25:08 you could be skeptical about it. 25:10 But God is not an idea. 25:11 God is not a concept, He's a person. 25:14 And the only way to get to know a person 25:17 is to draw close to them. 25:18 You have to, at some level, surrender an initial skepticism 25:22 about that person across the room, 25:24 about that person who's sitting next to you 25:25 on the airplane or God. 25:28 In other words, God isn't mere data, 25:30 it's not just, He's not composed of facts. 25:34 That's why you can have university professors 25:37 at a university who are heads of religion departments 25:42 and they're atheists, 25:43 because they're just analyzing 25:46 and poking holes in the data and the information. 25:50 They're not drawing in and saying, 25:52 "Wait a minute, what does God look like 25:55 on the interior of the subject." 25:58 That kind of goes with something that Jesus said, 26:01 this whole, I think we quoted Augustine, 26:04 faith seeking, understanding. 26:05 Yeah, faith seeking, understanding, 26:07 I believe in order to understand 26:11 and in John 7:17, 26:14 Jesus says something similar. 26:16 He says, "If anyone wills to do His will, 26:20 he shall know concerning the doctrine." 26:23 So he shall know, he shall understand. 26:26 If anyone wills, he shall understand 26:29 whether it is from God, 26:31 or whether I speak on my own authority. 26:33 So Jesus walked around saying, 26:36 the only way you can actually discover 26:38 whether or not what I say the claims 26:41 that I'm making are true or false 26:42 is you have to, like you said, 26:45 approach and come close in order to discover. 26:48 You can't observe from a distance 26:50 with skepticism only looking for contradictions. 26:53 You'll find what you look for basically. 26:56 I was thinking it's interesting that you would quote there 26:58 John 17, I was thinking of... 26:59 John 7:17. It's John 7:17. 27:01 Thank you, I was thinking of Matthew 11, 27:03 where the invitation 27:05 that Jesus gives is very emotional. 27:06 It's very personal 27:08 it's from a person to a person 27:10 come unto me all ye that labor 27:12 and are heavy laden. 27:13 We were talking about that in the first segment, 27:15 you know, this lady that you're on the phone with, 27:16 she's, she needs rest, she's burdened. 27:19 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, 27:21 I will give you rest. 27:22 In other words, the invitation is not to a mental assent 27:26 to a body of ideas, to a bunch of data. 27:29 I believe that, I believe A, B, C, D, E, F, and G 27:32 and therefore I am persuaded that there is a God. 27:34 I'm not saying that there's not an intellectual component, 27:35 there is, and we're going to talk about that. 27:37 But at the core level of what God is. 27:40 He's love. He has a relationship. 27:41 He's a being, He's a person to whom we draw near 27:46 and as we draw near, 27:48 then that nationed faith, that embryonic faith 27:52 grows into an increasingly mature 27:55 and even intellectually satisfying understanding. 27:58 And that's not to say that 28:01 somebody could not encounter the gospel, 28:05 the message of the gospel... 28:07 Starting the other way. 28:08 Yeah, without, in other words, 28:09 I don't have to be emotionally needy 28:11 in order to appreciate the claims of the gospel. 28:14 Right? 28:15 I do think everybody's emotionally needy, 28:17 whether or not they're aware of it. 28:18 They don't know that they are, 28:19 but they're not operating on that. 28:21 I know what you're saying. 28:22 And that brings me to a point that 28:23 I was thinking about when you were talking, 28:25 I was thinking that everyone's breaking point is different. 28:26 There you go. 28:28 So some of us, we're very strong willed, 28:30 we have a very strong capability in life 28:33 of achieving our goals and setting out 28:36 to accomplish the things 28:38 that we think will make us happy, 28:40 and other people are very weak 28:42 and the different levels 28:44 of breaking points for all of us, 28:46 right for me, for example, 28:48 I was determined, I mean, bound and determined 28:50 and I was moving through systematically life 28:52 one accomplishment after another 28:55 to find my happiness. 28:56 I was going to, I was driven, I was going to find it. 28:58 And you know, God was just a thing on the side 29:01 that I was raised to believe in 29:03 and so He wasn't a major part of focus of my life. 29:06 With some people, 29:07 they're raised in such a powerful, 29:09 let's say, Christian environment, 29:11 that they might be in their own understanding 29:14 intellectually of the Bible, 29:16 unable to deal with the smallest 29:20 little deviation in their life, 29:22 from what is absolutely joyful, loving, etc. 29:26 and it may just throw them for a loop. 29:27 And what I think happens at times is, 29:30 is that God has to dismantle all of this intellectual stuff 29:33 that we think is Him 29:35 in order for us to get into a relationship with Him 29:38 that is fundamental to all that information 29:41 if you know what I am trying to say. 29:42 Yeah, we follow what you're saying. 29:43 So what sometimes we do 29:45 and we get a trial, as we say, 29:46 "Well, wait a minute, 29:47 this isn't supposed to happen to me." 29:49 The Bible says and these promises say, 29:51 and my pastor said this, 29:52 this stuff isn't supposed to happen. 29:53 But God says, "No wait a minute, 29:55 that's not Me. 29:56 That's intellectual stuff. 29:59 But Me, I want you have a relationship with Me, 30:00 and when you have a relationship with Me, 30:02 it doesn't matter what happens." 30:03 There you go. 30:04 None of that matters anymore. 30:06 It's like we were talking about that in first segment 30:07 that too often we take this very fast style view 30:09 that if you believe then everything lines up, 30:12 but life's not that way. 30:14 Life is messy. It's tricky. 30:16 See what you guys think of this 30:18 because I think that this bears out in just 30:24 about every human beings experience. 30:26 We're all familiar with Bertrand Russell, 30:28 the British mathematician and philosopher, 30:31 who was one of the strongest advocates of atheism. 30:34 And just see what do you think 30:36 about the comparison of these two quotes. 30:38 This is a quotation from his early career 30:41 in philosophy and advocating atheism. 30:44 And he said, "If you accept the ordinary laws of science, 30:48 you have to suppose that human life 30:50 and life in general on this planet 30:52 will die out in due course, it is a mere flash in the pan. 30:57 It is a stage in the decay of the solar system. 31:00 At a certain stage in the decay, 31:02 you get the sort of conditions and temperature 31:04 and so forth that are suitable for proto plasma 31:08 and there is life for a short period of time 31:11 in the solar system. 31:13 You see in the moon however, 31:14 the sort of thing to which earth is tending 31:17 something dead, cold, and lifeless. 31:20 He's basically communicating the materialistic 31:22 and he's saying, this is really, 31:24 we're a flash in the pan, life is just... 31:26 Okay, but that's early in his career. 31:27 Okay. 31:29 Very stoic, factual, data driven atheist. 31:32 This is toward the end of his life 31:34 a few years before he died. 31:36 Same guy says, 31:39 "Nothing can penetrate 31:41 the loneliness of the human heart, 31:44 except the intensity of the highest order 31:48 of the sort of love 31:50 that the religious teachers have preached." 31:53 So, do you see what this guy is saying, 31:56 I mean, early in his career with his academic stoicism, 32:01 basically our universe means nothing and we're just, 32:03 it's just a flash in the pan and life has no meaning. 32:07 Toward the end of his life he's saying, wait a minute, 32:09 he's saying, the only way for the human heart 32:13 to really be cured of its loneliness 32:16 that's at the core of all of us, 32:18 is with the intensity of the sort of love 32:21 that people who believe in God are talking about. 32:23 Isn't that amazing? I'd say that's fantastic. 32:25 You know what, like every single person on planet earth 32:27 who's ever lived or ever will live 32:28 is gonna come to that conclusion 32:30 at one point or another. 32:31 And that's the point we were making earlier 32:33 and that is everyone has a breaking point. 32:34 Everyone has a point 32:36 at which they realize that love... 32:37 There we go. 32:39 Is that foundation, it's the building block 32:40 and every knee is gonna bow 32:42 every time it's going to confess 32:43 that one truth. 32:45 It's just that some of us on planet earth 32:47 are so indoctrinated in the material 32:51 and the intellectual that it's hard for us 32:53 to enter into this reality, 32:55 this experiential reality 32:56 that all of us are made for that all of us do. 32:58 I loved when you said in the first session 32:59 that we are built for love. 33:02 That's so true. That's exactly right. 33:03 We are built. 33:05 We are built to love and to be loved. 33:06 I think you've written, that's in your book. 33:08 That's A God Named Desire. 33:10 Let me throw another one out. This is fascinating. 33:12 Sigmund Freud was the founder of psychotherapy. 33:16 And he was an ardent atheist to his dying day 33:21 but he also with all of his academic God doesn't exist, 33:26 he said, religion is irrelevant. 33:28 He comes to the end of his life and quoting from Freud himself, 33:32 he says that as he came to the end of his life, 33:34 that he can't deny that there is a strange, secret 33:40 because academically 33:41 he couldn't come right out to say this. 33:44 That he was possessed of strange secret longings 33:48 for a life of quite another kind. 33:52 Isn't that something? 33:53 So there is this stoic atheist who is saying there is no God. 33:57 He comes to the end of his life and he's like, wait a minute. 34:00 I'd long for something secretly 34:03 that is for a life of quite a different context. 34:07 That in fact to the point that we were saying is that 34:09 there's two strands to this. 34:10 There's just dry, logical, your intellect and facts, 34:16 like you're saying information. 34:17 And then there's the human experience... 34:21 That longs for to love, to be loved. 34:23 Whatever our beliefs are, those two have to intersect. 34:27 So you have an atheist over here 34:28 who's just operating on just a hard, 34:31 you know, dry, lifeless facts or logic that they believe in, 34:36 but yet it doesn't correspond 34:38 to the reality of their own human experience. 34:42 Okay, so we've talked about the experiential side, 34:44 and we only have so many minutes for this conversation. 34:47 So we've acknowledged that there is a rational side, 34:51 there is a data driven side. 34:54 And there are really good rational reasons 34:57 to believe that God exists. 34:58 I mean, our question for this first program, 35:01 this first conversation is does God exist? 35:03 And how can I know? 35:04 So what are some of the reasons 35:07 that are most persuasive to you guys? 35:11 I mean, we know there are... 35:12 We can make a list of good, intellectual, rational, 35:15 logical reasons to believe in the existence of God. 35:19 Which ones appeal to you? 35:21 Or if you had to pick one, 35:22 what's the most persuasive for you? 35:23 But there's a lot for me, there's a lot of strands of, 35:26 you know, evidence, cumulative hands, 35:28 yes, cumulative. 35:29 It's, there's corroborating evidence everywhere we look. 35:31 But what I find most compelling 35:34 I mean, we can string up arguments 35:37 from scientific discoveries and all of that 35:39 and that's compelling, right? 35:40 We have to pay attention to that. 35:42 But what I find compelling is 35:45 if you remove God from the equation, 35:48 what does reality look like? 35:51 So, on one point of this, 35:53 I think of value, 35:56 purpose and meaning in human life 35:59 and that's the thing that I go back to always 36:01 if God did not exist, 36:04 how do we account for our belief 36:07 in other human beings having value? 36:10 So if I'm going to remove God from the equation and say, 36:13 I'm an atheist, I don't believe in the existence of God, 36:15 then now I have a problem because now, 36:18 I live as though other people have value. 36:22 I live as though other people are meaningful, 36:25 as though there's purpose to human life. 36:28 But I can't account for that purpose 36:30 if God is out of the picture. 36:32 Why not? 36:33 Well, because if God is out of the picture, 36:35 then we have to find an alternative explanation 36:38 for who we are. 36:40 And the dominant alternative explanation is 36:45 Darwinian evolution. 36:47 We're here just 36:48 through the natural processes of nature. 36:50 We are a flash in the pan, in the pan of the universe. 36:52 And we're gonna get to that 36:53 I'm sure at a future difficult question, 36:55 but if that's true, 36:58 how do you account for value 37:00 if it's survival of the fittest, 37:01 only the strong survive. 37:03 If I were here to propagate DNA, 37:05 then on the basis of what do I say, 37:07 other human beings have value 37:09 and live as though they have value. 37:12 So I can only account for that if God is in the picture. 37:15 I think what you're saying, let me just clarify 37:17 because I think this is really important. 37:19 Are you saying that, 37:20 that if I don't believe in God's existence, 37:23 I tend to live in contradiction to that? 37:25 Yeah, you can say, "I don't believe in God" 37:28 and still be a moral person, 37:30 still be somebody who treats other 37:32 as though they have value. 37:33 Clearly, the world is populated with people like that. 37:36 The point is not that, the point is, 37:39 can you consistently live life 37:42 assuming that there's such thing as love, 37:47 can you live as though there's love? 37:49 And at the same time, reject that there's a God 37:52 and we're only here through mechanical processes 37:55 that are not intelligible, that are not intentional? 37:59 It's just the undirected process of nature, 38:04 and yet, there's purpose, meaning, and value 38:07 in individual lives. 38:08 Love and good and evil. 38:09 Right, so to me that's what's most compelling 38:11 out of all of the things that I see 38:13 is that the basic fundamental level 38:15 when I wake up in the morning, 38:16 I assume there's purpose and meaning in life. 38:19 Now where did that assumption come from? 38:20 Yeah. 38:22 So and it's not just Jeffrey that assumes that, 38:24 you take a look at all the movies 38:26 that Hollywood creates or whatever, 38:28 you know, there's triumph, there's honor, there's valor. 38:31 Not every movie, there's some just terrible ones out there, 38:32 but honor, valor, triumph, hope, 38:37 dreams, the underdog, dignity, 38:40 you know, we are clearly being appealed to, 38:44 we are being entertained by things 38:45 that are already resonant in our heart, 38:47 Hollywood's not creating a thing and then saying, 38:49 hey, this should be resonant with you. 38:51 There's already something in us 38:52 that longs for that and you're saying, 38:55 okay, so in the absence of God, here's how I would say, 38:58 if there was no God, movies as an extension of reality 39:02 would look very different than they do now. 39:03 Life would look different, 39:05 marriage would look different... 39:06 It would never appeal to your inherent intuition 39:08 that there's a key purpose. 39:09 It says if we literally can't tell any other storyline, 39:16 it doesn't occur to us to tell a story 39:18 that doesn't have the elements of good and evil 39:20 and the hope that good triumphs or love 39:23 and the pursuit for love and, 39:25 and love being broken apart, 39:27 and then pursuing love and hoping that it works out. 39:29 We don't know any other storyline. 39:31 That is the story. 39:32 I mean, try to think of a story 39:34 that doesn't have those elements in it. 39:36 And here's something else that's really interesting 39:38 and that is in movies, death is a very sad thing. 39:42 A sad movie is one that ends if the hero dies, 39:44 one that ends in death of some kind. 39:46 That's a sad movie. 39:48 Well, in the Bible in 1 Corinthians 15, 39:50 death is an enemy to God. 39:52 Death is something that God is going to destroy. 39:54 So how do you separate those two ideas? 39:56 You can't separate those two ideas, 39:58 death is a sad thing on a natural world 40:00 that we live in, and to God death is an enemy. 40:02 This is a really, really helpful conversation for me. 40:06 This is stimulating 40:07 and we have other good rational reasons to talk about, 40:12 but we need to take another break. 40:13 So when we come back, 40:14 let's just crack it open a little bit more. 40:16 Sounds good. 40:28 The Light Bearers story is a short award winning video 40:32 that gives an inside look at one of the boldest 40:35 and most effective missionary ventures of our time. 40:38 You will see how multiple millions of gospel publications 40:41 are flooding the nations free of charge 40:43 by surprisingly simple means. 40:45 For your free copy of the Light Bearers Story, 40:48 call 877-585-1111 40:52 or write to Light Bearers 37457, 40:55 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 41:00 Once again, for your free copy of the Light Bearers Story, 41:03 call 877-585-1111 41:07 or write to Light Bearers 37457, 41:11 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon 97438. 41:15 Simply ask for the Light Bearers Story. 41:23 Before the break, we said, 41:25 "Hey, let's just start getting into the rational arguments 41:29 for the existence of God." 41:31 We've pretty much nailed down 41:33 that there is an experiential aspect. 41:36 But what are some of the good, 41:39 rational, logical reasons 41:42 to believe in the existence of God. 41:44 Now, somebody before the break 41:46 actually started breaking one down, 41:48 No, it was Jeffrey was giving his number one 41:51 or is what appeals to your mind. 41:53 Just meaning. 41:54 Yeah, so anybody else, 41:56 what are good rational arguments 41:57 for the existence of God? 41:59 The argument that I find most persuasive or the evidence 42:01 that I find most persuasive 42:02 and that's a difficult thing to say, right? 42:04 Because there are many things, 42:05 it's like you said it's cumulative, 42:07 it's the composite of corroborating evidence. 42:10 But something that I come back to over and over again, 42:13 is really two arguments that merge into one, 42:15 two pieces of evidence that merge into one. 42:17 And that is, the universe that we live in is a universe 42:21 that is conducive, 42:23 not just to life but this is a key point 42:26 to the existence of self reflective, 42:29 intelligent, self aware life so there's that. 42:33 And then over here that minds exist, 42:36 not just brains. 42:37 A brain is an organ, you know, located inside of the skull. 42:41 But there's this thing called the mind. 42:43 It's immaterial. 42:45 It's immaterial, it's non-physical, 42:46 it's your identity, it's your character, 42:48 it's your hopes, it's your dreams, 42:49 it's the you-ness that makes you, you. 42:52 Now you put these two things together, 42:53 not only do we have a universe 42:55 with all of its physical constants, 42:57 the cosmologists and other scientists have said, 43:00 Hey, man, the universe's really well tuned, fine tuned 43:03 for the existence of life. 43:05 Okay, fine. 43:06 But if the highest level of life on earth was, 43:09 say a canary, or an earthworm, 43:12 or even a horse, 43:14 life would still be beautiful. 43:15 There'd be valleys, there'd be flowers, 43:16 there'd be photosynthesis, 43:18 there'd be all of this beauty here, 43:19 all of the symmetry 43:21 but there would be no mind to appreciate it. 43:23 You could say it like this, nobody would know it. 43:25 No one would know. 43:26 The world will be beautiful but nobody would know it. 43:28 So you take these two things, you have a fantastically, 43:30 well designed, fine tuned universe 43:32 that is conducive to the existence 43:34 and proliferation of the diversity of life, 43:36 the origin and diversity of life. 43:37 And then you put human minds into it 43:40 that are able to apprehend the beauty 43:43 that would be there, even if the mind wasn't. 43:46 This goes back to a quotation 43:48 that I've just thought about quite a bit 43:50 and I love and Einstein said it 43:52 on a number of different occasions in different ways. 43:54 And so I'll sort of put some of them together. 43:56 He essentially said that the most incomprehensible thing 43:59 about the universe is precisely its comprehensibility. 44:04 The fact that there are minds here 44:07 to think about 44:09 the nature of the distance to the sun 44:11 or the photosynthetic process 44:12 or the neurochemistry in the brain, 44:15 the fact that there are minds here 44:17 that are apprehending all of this. 44:19 And I like the way CS Lewis says it, 44:21 speaking of the same phenomenon, he says, 44:23 surely this ought to raise our suspicions. 44:25 Yeah, yeah. 44:27 You know, not just because again, 44:29 life is one thing, 44:30 life is a miracle in and of itself, 44:32 but the existence of intelligent 44:34 self reflective life 44:36 that is aware of its place in the cosmos. 44:38 To me, this is far more than a coincidence. 44:40 It's far more than a happy coincidence. 44:43 It is an evidence that screams 44:48 the existence of a creator God 44:50 who purposefully, intentionally made 44:52 not only the universe as it is, 44:54 but minds to appreciate 44:55 and apprehend the beauty that's there. 44:57 I'm thinking of a scripture 44:58 that that actually communicates the very point 45:02 that you're bringing up in Romans Chapter 1. 45:04 Romans 1:19-20. 45:08 I don't know if you guys have noticed 45:09 this particular point or not, 45:12 but it just, it's just been occurring to me recently. 45:15 Here Paul is reasoning forward in a line of thought 45:22 for the existence of God in a sense and he says, 45:25 because verse 19, 45:26 "Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, 45:33 for God has shown it to them." 45:36 It's manifest in them so. 45:38 So what is this? 45:39 Yeah, what is this location that he's pointing to? 45:42 There's, kind of, 45:44 I guess, what we might call a local intuitive awareness 45:47 in the human being himself, in the human being herself. 45:51 There's something going on in us. 45:53 Well, what's going on in us? 45:54 Well, one of the things that is going on inside of us 45:57 is consciousness. 45:59 The capacity for self reflection. 46:01 That's right. 46:03 This ability to look out of ourselves 46:05 and to wonder about the physical reality around us 46:08 and beyond the physical reality, 46:10 to have these aspirations for something 46:13 that transcends the physical. 46:15 Why in the world do we aspire 46:17 to something beyond merely getting food 46:19 to eat and reproducing? 46:22 We're longing for something. 46:23 So that's one of the things that's in us that testifies 46:26 to the existence of God. 46:28 Secondly, there's something else going on in us 46:32 that Paul is referring to, and that's just moral activity. 46:35 That's right. 46:36 There's a moral conscience. 46:37 We know the difference between right and wrong. 46:40 We not only know the difference, 46:42 but check this out. 46:43 If you do something wrong, 46:46 you feel bad about it. 46:47 We call that guilt or shame, 46:48 you don't like the fact that you did it. 46:50 Now you can harden yourself 46:51 by doing the same dastardly deed 46:53 over and over and over again 46:54 until you finally justify it and you evade your guilt. 46:58 But the fact is, 46:59 that at some stage in the process, 47:02 you do something wrong, 47:03 you violate somebody 47:05 and you don't like yourself for it. 47:07 Conversely, when you do something right, 47:10 if you do a kind deed, if you relieve suffering, 47:14 you feel good about that for some reason. 47:16 So there's all this moral activity and Paul says, 47:19 what may be known of God 47:22 is manifest in the activities of the human mind, 47:28 and heart and conscience and then this, 47:30 for God has shown it to them, 47:33 which says that God is active in self revelation. 47:38 He wants us to know Him. 47:40 And therefore there's this constant communication 47:43 that's going on. 47:45 So I think that scripture actually backs up 47:48 the rational argument that you're giving. 47:50 On that moral point that you're making, 47:52 we may not always agree between right or wrong. 47:57 Different cultures may have different views 47:59 on different things and different individuals. 48:01 But the point is that 48:03 we're all aware that there is such a thing 48:05 as right or wrong. 48:07 Yeah. 48:08 Whether or not we may agree or disagree on details. 48:10 But let me speak to that, here there is a point on that 48:12 and that is that for all of this talk about 48:15 moral plurality and relativism, 48:18 there are themes 48:20 that run through all moral cultures, 48:23 and all people who have not seared 48:25 to their conscience to the point 48:26 of not appreciating those differences. 48:28 For example, 48:29 there is no culture, anywhere, island culture, 48:33 any culture anywhere that says 48:35 that cowardice is a positive thing. 48:40 There's no moral culture that says 48:42 that it's honorable to treat with cruelty those 48:45 that have treated you with kindness. 48:47 And there are many of these moral things. 48:50 So there might be variations on a theme. 48:51 Here's a good example, polygamy. 48:53 Some cultures say numerous wives, 48:56 other cultures say one wife, 48:57 right or one spouse 48:59 but the principle of fidelity is the same 49:02 in both of those cultures. 49:03 Say, hey, you'll be true to your three wives, right? 49:05 You'll be true. Yeah, I'll be true. 49:07 You'll be true to your wife, right? 49:08 So, so that's a variation on a theme. 49:10 But the principle of fidelity runs through that culture. 49:13 Yeah. 49:14 And I don't think there's any culture in the world 49:17 that is satisfied with you taking my stuff. 49:23 There are cultures in which I'm fine with me 49:26 taking your stuff. 49:27 But nobody is happy with you taking my stuff. 49:30 When the shoe is on the other foot. 49:32 And so there's definitely moral activity going on. 49:35 So the point here is that how do you account 49:37 for this ubiquitous that means ever, 49:41 you know, ever present 49:43 moral fact, fiber and fabric 49:45 in which we are all living and existing in the absence 49:47 of some transcendent moral reality? 49:50 So like getting back to your thing, 49:51 like if it's just molecules in motion, mechanically, 49:55 how do we end up with this moral matrix, 49:57 there's a lot of M's there. 49:59 How do we end up with this moral matrix 50:00 in which we're living? 50:02 Right. 50:03 James, you got a scripture there. 50:04 I got a scripture that this will move us 50:06 to another point that I think is really powerful personally, 50:09 and it's one that keeps me on track with God. 50:12 It's one that I think a lot of people have taken in 50:16 and it is led them to God and the verses 50:19 I'm looking at here are Psalm 19. 50:21 I know you're going to know in Psalm 19:1 and onward. 50:23 Beautiful. 50:24 The heavens declare the glory of God. 50:26 And the firmament shows his handiwork. 50:28 Day unto day utters speech, 50:30 and night after night reveals knowledge. 50:32 There is no speech or language, their voice is not heard. 50:34 That's right. 50:36 The heavens and creation itself 50:38 does not have a specific language, 50:40 ABCD, you know, alphabet 50:42 where they're communicating specific words. 50:44 But as people look at nature, they look at the stars 50:46 and say look at the creation itself. 50:49 It speaks to them of the Creator. 50:52 Over and over again, 50:53 people are led to the conclusion 50:55 that there is a God because there's no way 50:58 and especially in science, even more so today in science, 51:01 the one we, I think, 51:04 pursue and grow in our ability to understand in scientifically 51:09 how this world is created, 51:10 the more scientists are coming to the conclusion 51:12 that there must be a God, there must be a Creator. 51:13 Well, that certainly is the case in physics. 51:15 Yeah. 51:17 The majority of professional physicists 51:19 would be believers in something 51:22 in some transcendent intelligence. 51:24 Let me just say this, David, in some places, 51:26 scientists are becoming, 51:29 are outnumbering theologians 51:31 in their understanding of God and His existence. 51:34 There are theologians 51:36 who intellectually theologize about this religion, 51:39 but don't believe in God and there are scientists 51:41 who believe in a Creator... 51:43 I want to say something. 51:45 You're gonna say something, 51:46 I'm gonna come back to that but go ahead. 51:47 You won't forget? 51:49 I won't forget because it's a quotation 51:50 I wanna read on that very point. 51:51 What I was going to add by saying that Psalm 19 51:55 and the argument you're giving for the existence of God 51:57 is the argument from design, the teleological argument, 52:02 and part of that design 52:03 not only do you look up into the heavens 52:05 and the heavens declare the glory of God, 52:08 but again, looking inside of the design 52:11 of the human being, we have DNA. 52:14 And DNA is information. 52:17 It's intelligent information 52:19 and that intelligent information is so complex 52:21 that it is rightfully called language. 52:24 There are four chemical components 52:27 that communicate so carefully, 52:30 everything from eye color 52:32 to traits of personality in a person. 52:34 And, for example, 52:37 I just found this quote very interesting. 52:39 Bill Gates said that DNA is like a software program 52:44 only much more complex than anything we've ever devised. 52:48 There's more complex 52:51 and coherent information in a teaspoon of DNA 52:56 than present in all the books ever written in human history, 53:01 in a teaspoon of DNA. 53:03 That's dense. 53:05 There's a lot of info. 53:06 There's that, Ty, on that there's, 53:08 I know you're gonna jump but... 53:09 No, do your thing. 53:10 Around the DNA thing, 53:12 there's this philosophical atheist 53:13 who was basically the face of atheism, Anthony Flew. 53:17 Yeah. 53:19 Who recently... 53:21 It's been probably seven years ago now, 53:23 ten years ago now. 53:24 Essentially went from being an atheist 53:27 not to being an evangelical Bible believing Christian, 53:29 per se, but at least a huge transition 53:32 from an atheist to there's a Creator. 53:36 And the argument that really tipped it 53:39 over for him was DNA. 53:41 We're for talking about, he's saying, you know, 53:43 we're looking at what we're looking at, 53:45 and there's screaming intelligence. 53:47 And Anthony Flew is someone to be reckoned with. 53:50 I mean, he's deceased now rather recently. 53:52 But the fact is, 53:55 just look at the title of his book. 53:57 There is no God and no is crossed out, 54:00 there is a God because this title of the book 54:04 where he basically said 54:05 I do believe in the existence of God now, 54:07 is reflecting both his previous 54:09 philosophical approach to life there is no God. 54:11 He was one of the most prominent atheists. 54:14 Academic atheist. 54:16 Yeah and he in the introduction to this book, 54:19 he basically says, I've changed my mind, 54:21 God does exist. 54:22 And he said, the reason I changed my mind 54:24 is because I followed the evidence where it leads, 54:29 and it led me to believe in the existence of God. 54:32 Amazing. I'll read a quotation here. 54:34 This is not the one that I was originally going to read, 54:35 but I just have this in front of me. 54:37 This is from Dr. Flew. 54:39 He says, what I think 54:40 the DNA material has done is shown 54:43 that intelligence must have been involved 54:45 in getting these extraordinarily 54:46 diverse elements together. 54:48 In other words, Ty's exactly right. 54:50 When we're dealing with DNA, 54:51 we're not just dealing with a molecular compound, 54:54 we're dealing with data. 54:55 Information mentioned, 54:57 and the only known source of information is intelligence. 55:01 So if we, what Flew is saying 55:03 and what many scientists today are saying and non scientists, 55:06 we can't trust the importance of this quest 55:10 only to the professionals, it's too important. 55:12 Lay people have to be thinking about these things as well. 55:14 We have to be thinking about. 55:16 We're not scientists, we have to say, 55:17 hey, wait a minute. 55:19 There's information here, there's data here. 55:21 Where does information come from? 55:23 Information comes from intelligence. 55:24 This is the quotation I wanted to read. 55:26 This is from Dr. Owen Gingrich, 55:28 who was the head of like, 55:29 the history of science at Harvard University. 55:31 He was the professor of... 55:34 He was the head of the Smithsonian 55:35 Astrophysical Observatory. 55:37 I mean, the guy's like in top tier scientists, 55:40 and listen to what he says, he wrote a great little book 55:42 called God's Universe. 55:43 And he said, "To me, belief in a final cause, 55:46 a Creator God gives a coherent understanding 55:49 of why the universe seems so congenial designed 55:53 for the existence of, listen, 55:55 intelligent self-reflective life." 55:58 So now this is a guy who's saying, 56:00 as you were saying, as a scientist 56:01 who's looking at the universe and saying wait a minute, 56:04 he's not a theologian looking at scripture, 56:06 a scientist looking at the universe 56:07 and saying the heavens declare the glory of God. 56:11 Yeah, absolutely astounding. 56:13 I think that we could amass quite an arsenal 56:18 of good arguments for the existence of God. 56:23 There's the argument from design 56:24 that has been mentioned, 56:26 there's the argument from mind, from purpose, 56:29 just good and evil and the fact that 56:31 we all know that there's good and evil. 56:33 Which by the way, is also part of Psalm, 56:35 the law of the Lord is perfect converting the souls. 56:37 That same Psalm. 56:38 Yeah. I love that. 56:40 But we have to confess also, 56:42 that the bottom line really is that the experiential part 56:48 plays prominently into any individual persons, 56:52 realization that God exists because the fact is, 56:56 even if we were to amass all the data 56:59 and all the arguments for the existence of God. 57:02 The fact is, 57:03 you can't prove the existence of God 57:06 to the satisfaction of everybody in the world, 57:10 you can prove 57:12 the existence of God to your own satisfaction... 57:15 That's exactly correct. 57:16 Experientially and I can tell you from 57:18 and I think the same is true of you guys. 57:20 I not only believe that God exists, 57:24 personally, I know that God exists, 57:28 not simply because of data and information 57:31 but because I've had an encounter. 57:34 I know it as much as I know I exist. 57:37 That's pretty. 57:38 I'm much convinced that God exists 57:39 as I am that I exist. 57:41 Beautiful, love it. Yeah. 57:43 I love the distinction there that we cannot prove 57:46 the existence of God to someone else's 57:47 absolute satisfaction if they insist on skepticism, 57:50 but that doesn't mean that we can't personally taste 57:53 and see that's an invitation to an experience. 57:57 Taste and see that the Lord is good. 58:00 Yeah, so we're believers, 58:02 because there's rational basis for faith 58:07 and we're believers 58:08 because we have experientially 58:11 individually come to know God as a personal being, 58:15 and that's a good place to stop right there... 58:17 Beautiful. 58:19 And we will pursue our conversations further. |
Revised 2019-07-22