Man, I am really excited to
be back together for table talk.
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This is season 3 and
we've had a great response.
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Lot of people telling
us that they are enjoying
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the format of
considering biblical topics
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in a conversational
format rather than a preacher
00:00:33.70\00:00:36.73
with a Bible at a pulpit.
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This is just really
how conversations occur
00:00:38.13\00:00:43.51
in people's everyday lives
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and a lot of individuals
have been telling us,
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we're just we're
growing spiritually
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by sitting in
on the conversation
00:00:51.85\00:00:54.12
and some people have been saying
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that this has
stimulated for them
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small groups in their
towns and their churches
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where they're getting together
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now and saying,
hey, let's just do that.
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Let's just sit around a table
00:01:04.96\00:01:06.59
and let's just bring up topics
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and let's just talk it through
00:01:08.33\00:01:09.86
and see what the
Bible has to say about it,
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whatever it is
that we're interested.
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Excellent.
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Yeah, this is
going to be fun though.
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We're going to be delving into
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because we've talked about this,
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we've prayed about it,
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what should we
do in the season 3
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and we came to a consensus
that it would really be fun,
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and just helpful and for us
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and others and challenging
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to do a series
called Hard Questions.
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And so what we've done
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is we've come to
a list of questions
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we had actually more than
13 programs would accommodate.
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But we came up with 13 questions
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that we believe
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are some of the most
challenging questions
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that people not just
ask, but people in general,
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these things pop
into people's heads,
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People want to believe in God.
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They want to believe
what Scripture declares,
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but God gave us
minds to reason with,
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He wants us to think.
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And we're not asked to
leap into a kind of blind faith.
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I like to think that
faith is one of our rational,
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and at the same time
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we're not pretending to offer
squeaky clean answers either.
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I think I read
somewhere I forget where,
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where it's, it's unfair for us
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to ask hard, difficult questions
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and expect easy answers.
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Right. Right.
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So we're going to ask
hard, difficult questions.
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We have to be willing to
wrestle with the messiness
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of some of the answers.
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They're not all clean.
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They're not all simple or easy.
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And recognize that
even our best efforts
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to answer some of
these difficult questions
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will come short of
really filling it out
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with every detail we don't know.
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And being honest that
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we don't know
like you said, right?
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Well, it's okay to say things.
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Some things are clear
and some things are not.
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You take the
nature of the things
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that we are seeking,
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we're not in answering
and asking difficult questions
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about politics or economics.
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That's the human realm.
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That's something
that is understandable,
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discernible, graspable.
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We're talking
about difficult things
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related to God, to Scripture,
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there is an infinity beyond
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what we will talk
about at the table.
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In other words, we're
just, you know, you say,
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we're wrestling,
we are wrestling,
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but we're just
scratching in some instances,
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you know, the
tip of the iceberg,
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and there's an infinity
beyond and at some point,
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and at some places
in the conversation,
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it's very
appropriate just to say,
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we don't know,
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we think that the
answer is in that direction.
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We've got good reason to believe
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it's over there somewhere.
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But as far as the specifics,
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we will have to say in
the course of this series,
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that's the best answer
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that we can give
with the information
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that we have.
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And coming up with a title,
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we actually
considered calling it
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not the hard questions series,
but the grappling series.
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I mean, we seriously
thought well, maybe, yeah,
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maybe that's the best
we can do is grapple but,
00:04:01.20\00:04:03.57
but at the same
time, I want to say this.
00:04:03.61\00:04:06.61
God is here to communicate,
so we can gain clarity.
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We can gain
sufficient clarity for things.
00:04:10.18\00:04:12.81
That's right. Absolutely.
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And that's a beautiful thing.
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We don't have all the answers.
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But Scripture is
very illuminating.
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Yeah, there's enough certainty
00:04:20.89\00:04:22.39
to help us wake up every morning
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with certain question marks.
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But there's enough certainty
00:04:26.73\00:04:28.36
to make life
meaningful and allow us
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to live meaningfully right?
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Just this weekend,
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I was riding with
Jeffrey's wife Mariana
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and we were going to church
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and on the way to church,
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and she actually was
bringing soup to church
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and it spilled all over his car.
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I joked that it actually
increased the value of his car,
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if you've seen
the car he drives it.
00:04:45.98\00:04:47.32
It actually
increased the value of his car.
00:04:47.35\00:04:49.28
It's true.
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But anyway, in the
course of that conversation,
00:04:50.69\00:04:52.52
Jeffrey's wife's mother
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as we know has just
recently passed away,
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about a year ago now, isn't it?
00:04:55.59\00:04:57.29
And we were talking
about you know how she,
00:04:57.33\00:04:59.29
that was not an
easy thing for her,
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you know, her
mother was quite young,
00:05:01.06\00:05:03.03
died of cancer.
00:05:03.06\00:05:04.43
And she was talking
about how she actually ended up
00:05:04.47\00:05:07.80
in a bit of a funk,
00:05:07.84\00:05:09.17
a bit of a
spiritual depressive state
00:05:09.20\00:05:11.57
that she herself
wasn't even aware
00:05:11.61\00:05:13.07
that she was in.
00:05:13.11\00:05:14.44
And in the course
of the conversation
00:05:14.48\00:05:15.81
that we had this weekend,
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I said, you know, one
of the trickiest things is,
00:05:17.21\00:05:19.18
is that we're almost programmed
when we believe in Scripture,
00:05:19.21\00:05:22.85
and when we
have faith in Christ,
00:05:22.88\00:05:24.35
to think that
anything short of certainty
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is almost like
borderline sinful.
00:05:26.79\00:05:29.26
That if we don't know absolutely
00:05:29.29\00:05:30.63
for certain the
answer to every question
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that we're being,
we're lacking faith,
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we're doubting,
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and the truth is that
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we can turn
certainty into an idol.
00:05:38.07\00:05:40.44
We can turn
certainty into something that
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if we don't know and anything
short of that is considered,
00:05:42.34\00:05:45.31
where's your faith,
but it's not like that.
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Even the prophets
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will eventually
get into Scripture,
00:05:48.88\00:05:51.21
but even the prophets in
Scripture, like the psalms.
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There you go.
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Some of the communication
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and even some of the prayers
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are just like an
extreme expression of like,
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I don't get it
what's happening God,
00:06:02.79\00:06:04.33
why, why, why.
00:06:04.36\00:06:05.69
I read a
paraphrase recently of Psalm,
00:06:05.73\00:06:07.23
I think it's Psalm 80,
00:06:07.26\00:06:08.60
and the Psalmist is literally
saying, God, are you blind?
00:06:08.63\00:06:11.23
Yeah. Are you deaf?
00:06:11.27\00:06:12.63
Yeah. Can you hear us?
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Can't You hear what I'm saying?
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Job has the same
testimony. Absolutely.
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This is as if God likes
that though that's authentic,
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that's raw humanity
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and He doesn't want us to just.
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He'd rather us to be
honest than pretentious
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about what we're going through.
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You guys, this
just came to my mind.
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I don't know if
you've ever thought about it
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in this connection.
00:06:28.88\00:06:30.22
But 1 Corinthians Chapter 13
00:06:30.25\00:06:32.35
actually says, you'll remember
00:06:32.39\00:06:34.52
where Paul's talking
about when I was a child,
00:06:34.56\00:06:36.46
I spoke as a child,
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I thought as a
child and then he says,
00:06:37.86\00:06:40.66
we prophesy in part.
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So even the
Bible where prophets,
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human beings are inspired,
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are writing out what God
shows them by inspiration,
00:06:50.74\00:06:55.44
and yet you come
to the New Testament
00:06:55.48\00:06:57.51
and Paul looks at the
Old Testament scriptures
00:06:57.55\00:06:59.91
that were at his disposal
and says that's partial.
00:06:59.95\00:07:02.75
We prophesy
partially, I mean, there's more.
00:07:02.78\00:07:06.55
The human dynamic is there.
00:07:06.59\00:07:07.92
Yeah, the human
dynamic is there.
00:07:07.96\00:07:09.42
The fingerprint
is there and it's...
00:07:09.46\00:07:11.16
And as I said,
there's an infinity beyond.
00:07:11.19\00:07:12.63
It's the
iceberg thing, isn't it?
00:07:12.66\00:07:14.36
You know, we're wrestling
with what's above the water.
00:07:14.40\00:07:16.87
But when we're talking
about the things of God,
00:07:16.90\00:07:18.80
the things of Scripture,
the things of eternity,
00:07:18.83\00:07:21.57
there is nine tenths or more,
00:07:21.60\00:07:23.91
far more than that
is beneath the surface
00:07:23.94\00:07:26.74
and yet what I
love what Jeffrey said,
00:07:26.78\00:07:28.91
that doesn't mean that
00:07:28.94\00:07:30.28
there can't be a
modicum of certainty.
00:07:30.31\00:07:32.81
It doesn't mean
that we are just groping
00:07:32.85\00:07:34.85
in the darkness blindly.
00:07:34.88\00:07:36.22
No, we're going to see
00:07:36.25\00:07:37.59
that there are some really
compelling persuasive answers
00:07:37.62\00:07:40.76
to these hard questions.
00:07:40.79\00:07:42.12
They're not all as
clean and as nice and as,
00:07:42.16\00:07:44.13
as simple as
we'd love them to be.
00:07:44.16\00:07:45.86
But that's the
nature of reality.
00:07:45.89\00:07:47.23
Life is messy. It's complex.
00:07:47.26\00:07:49.40
Yeah, I just last night,
00:07:49.43\00:07:51.53
and you know who
I'm talking about
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if I said her name.
00:07:53.20\00:07:55.50
A friend of mine
called last night,
00:07:55.54\00:07:57.41
we were on the phone
00:07:57.44\00:07:58.77
for quite a long period of time.
00:07:58.81\00:08:00.44
And this is where the
rubber meets the road.
00:08:00.48\00:08:02.81
She called and you can
hear her voice quivering.
00:08:02.84\00:08:05.91
She's on the verge of tears.
00:08:05.95\00:08:07.82
She says, I need to know
00:08:07.85\00:08:11.99
that there is light at
the end of this tunnel.
00:08:12.02\00:08:15.36
My husband right
now is in the throes
00:08:15.39\00:08:20.03
of descending
into mental illness
00:08:20.06\00:08:23.06
and I don't know what to do.
00:08:23.10\00:08:25.03
We have children.
00:08:25.07\00:08:26.43
This is their
father, this is my husband.
00:08:26.47\00:08:29.20
And she's crying out,
00:08:29.24\00:08:31.37
not just to a brother in Christ,
00:08:31.41\00:08:33.34
you know, calling me,
00:08:33.38\00:08:34.71
she's crying out to
God and saying, God,
00:08:34.74\00:08:36.75
and one of the things
00:08:36.78\00:08:38.11
she said in the
course of the conversation,
00:08:38.15\00:08:39.91
is she said,
"Ty, I don't get it.
00:08:39.95\00:08:43.12
We love God, we
were serving Him."
00:08:43.15\00:08:46.92
And she said, this
is what she said to me,
00:08:46.96\00:08:48.59
she said, "The Bible,
00:08:48.62\00:08:49.96
doesn't the Bible somewhere say
00:08:49.99\00:08:51.33
that God won't
put anything on us
00:08:51.36\00:08:53.16
that we can't bear.
00:08:53.19\00:08:54.56
He won't try us beyond
00:08:54.60\00:08:56.77
what we're capable of bearing."
00:08:56.80\00:08:58.13
And this is what she said to me
00:08:58.17\00:08:59.50
and in all honesty she said,
00:08:59.53\00:09:00.87
"That's not true. I'm there.
00:09:00.90\00:09:02.24
I'm past that point.
00:09:02.27\00:09:03.61
I'm about to break.
00:09:03.64\00:09:05.87
I don't know what to do,
00:09:05.91\00:09:08.28
where can I turn,"
00:09:08.31\00:09:09.64
and people have
that kind of situations.
00:09:09.68\00:09:13.92
Well, that segues exactly
into what we want to address
00:09:13.95\00:09:16.65
as our first hard question
00:09:16.69\00:09:18.15
and that is when
people are pushed,
00:09:18.19\00:09:19.72
even when people aren't pushed,
00:09:19.75\00:09:21.09
but when they are
pushed to the place
00:09:21.12\00:09:22.96
beyond which they feel like
00:09:22.99\00:09:24.33
they can't endure
the vicissitudes of life,
00:09:24.36\00:09:26.13
they begin to ask this question,
00:09:26.16\00:09:27.96
is God even there?
00:09:28.00\00:09:29.33
Does God exist? Yeah.
00:09:29.36\00:09:30.70
It's because maybe he's not
00:09:30.73\00:09:32.70
and we would be not true
00:09:32.73\00:09:35.80
to the reality that
exists outside of churches
00:09:35.84\00:09:38.77
if we didn't admit
that there are millions,
00:09:38.81\00:09:42.31
tens of millions,
hundreds of millions of people
00:09:42.34\00:09:44.61
that want to believe.
00:09:44.65\00:09:46.11
Yeah.
00:09:46.15\00:09:47.48
But are waiting and looking
00:09:47.52\00:09:48.85
for some sort of credible answer
00:09:48.88\00:09:51.05
that's beyond just, well,
00:09:51.09\00:09:52.42
it makes me feel good
00:09:52.45\00:09:53.79
or everybody in my church
00:09:53.82\00:09:55.16
says that that's the truths...
00:09:55.19\00:09:56.52
I was raised that way.
00:09:56.56\00:09:59.03
So that's merely
cultural you mean,
00:09:59.06\00:10:01.26
so that the
answers are kind of built
00:10:01.30\00:10:03.77
into your upbringing
and then real life unfolds
00:10:03.80\00:10:07.47
and you start to say,
00:10:07.50\00:10:09.10
those answers that I
was given aren't matching up
00:10:09.14\00:10:12.97
with how difficult
this experience is.
00:10:13.01\00:10:15.74
Okay, I wanna say
something about that.
00:10:15.78\00:10:18.25
There is a difference though
00:10:18.28\00:10:19.65
between the way that
Scripture presents God
00:10:19.68\00:10:22.72
and His relationship to humanity
00:10:22.75\00:10:24.32
and the
vicissitudes, and difficulties,
00:10:24.35\00:10:25.79
and trials of life,
00:10:25.82\00:10:27.16
and the way the
church often presents it.
00:10:27.19\00:10:29.36
The way that it's
too often communicated,
00:10:29.39\00:10:31.43
it reminds me of an
Andrew Gullahorn song
00:10:31.46\00:10:33.46
about how it's just so
easy and the preacher stands up
00:10:33.50\00:10:36.67
and he's got
beautiful hair and a tie.
00:10:36.70\00:10:38.67
And you know that
00:10:38.70\00:10:40.04
everything looks
great in the choir,
00:10:40.07\00:10:41.40
and it's just too nice.
00:10:41.44\00:10:42.77
And answers are too easy.
00:10:42.80\00:10:44.14
And then people
don't live in church.
00:10:44.17\00:10:45.54
They live in reality.
00:10:45.57\00:10:46.91
They go home, and they go home
00:10:46.94\00:10:48.41
and their husband is
going through a difficult trial
00:10:48.44\00:10:50.51
or there's more
money than there is
00:10:50.55\00:10:52.01
or more month
than there is money
00:10:52.05\00:10:53.38
or you got cancer or whatever.
00:10:53.42\00:10:56.12
So the reality is,
00:10:56.15\00:10:57.59
is that too often
in church situations,
00:10:57.62\00:11:00.29
in cultural situations,
and just as Christians,
00:11:00.32\00:11:02.82
we are inclined I think
to make the answers easier
00:11:02.86\00:11:07.20
and more platitudinous
00:11:07.23\00:11:08.56
than what Scripture does,
00:11:08.60\00:11:09.93
like you were saying, you know,
00:11:09.96\00:11:11.30
David's like what?
00:11:11.33\00:11:12.67
Hello, what's going on?
00:11:12.70\00:11:14.04
There's something
else I think is important
00:11:14.07\00:11:15.40
where I think
about the question,
00:11:15.44\00:11:16.77
does God exist?
00:11:16.81\00:11:18.77
I think another way we
can ask that question is,
00:11:18.81\00:11:20.94
does love exists?
00:11:20.98\00:11:22.31
There you go.
00:11:22.34\00:11:23.68
Because love is
the definition for God.
00:11:23.71\00:11:26.35
According to the Bible,
love is the definition for God.
00:11:26.38\00:11:28.75
And when you
look at the hardships,
00:11:28.78\00:11:31.69
and the trials,
and the difficulties
00:11:31.72\00:11:33.05
that people are going
through in their lives,
00:11:33.09\00:11:35.29
that's really the
question they're asking.
00:11:35.32\00:11:37.19
There people were built for love
00:11:37.23\00:11:39.46
and people are looking for love
00:11:39.49\00:11:41.06
and when life decimates you,
00:11:41.10\00:11:42.60
when husbands and wives go
through these major trials,
00:11:42.63\00:11:45.33
and children, and grandparents
00:11:45.37\00:11:47.14
when humanity is
decimated by evil,
00:11:47.17\00:11:50.24
people are asking the question,
00:11:50.27\00:11:51.77
even beyond this idea of
that we addressing the question,
00:11:51.81\00:11:54.31
well, does love exists?
00:11:54.34\00:11:55.68
There you go.
00:11:55.71\00:11:57.05
And that's why people
say, Well, if God is love,
00:11:57.08\00:11:58.41
then why is all
this thing happening?
00:11:58.45\00:11:59.88
'Cause they're looking or this,
00:11:59.91\00:12:01.25
they're looking for love
00:12:01.28\00:12:02.62
and they're looking for a sense
00:12:02.65\00:12:04.35
of what love is
and how it functions
00:12:04.39\00:12:06.42
in this situation.
00:12:06.45\00:12:07.79
Yeah, in their situation.
00:12:07.82\00:12:09.16
I love the language
that you use there, James,
00:12:09.19\00:12:10.53
decimated by life.
00:12:10.56\00:12:12.26
And let's be honest,
like, I'm happy today,
00:12:12.29\00:12:14.10
you know, I woke up even
though it was raining outside.
00:12:14.13\00:12:16.06
I mean, I've got
a beautiful wife,
00:12:16.10\00:12:17.57
I've got two children.
00:12:17.60\00:12:18.93
You know, I've got a roof
over my head and food to eat.
00:12:18.97\00:12:20.70
But in a
moment, one cancer test,
00:12:20.74\00:12:23.07
one car accident,
00:12:23.10\00:12:24.67
you know, one chemical
imbalance in your brain
00:12:24.71\00:12:27.58
and you can be, as you
say, decimated by life.
00:12:27.61\00:12:30.65
It's fragile. Life is fragile.
00:12:30.68\00:12:32.81
So these, I don't know,
maybe this will segue us.
00:12:32.85\00:12:37.59
You mentioned the question.
00:12:37.62\00:12:39.32
Does God exist
or does love exist?
00:12:39.35\00:12:41.42
It seems to me at least.
00:12:41.46\00:12:44.09
The way I relate to this is that
00:12:44.13\00:12:45.56
there's two levels
of questions or answers.
00:12:45.59\00:12:48.76
There's the intellectual,
00:12:48.80\00:12:50.73
there's your brain and
then there's your heart.
00:12:50.77\00:12:53.64
Right. Right.
00:12:53.67\00:12:55.44
So we, no one's
going to be satisfied
00:12:55.47\00:12:57.81
with just brainy answers.
00:12:57.84\00:13:00.38
Right?
00:13:00.41\00:13:01.74
Stuff that just
makes logical sense,
00:13:01.78\00:13:03.78
we also need to...
00:13:03.81\00:13:05.38
We need something to
cling to with our hearts,
00:13:05.41\00:13:07.85
at the same time to simply focus
00:13:07.88\00:13:10.42
on the emotional answers
00:13:10.45\00:13:12.72
without the
intellectual foundation
00:13:12.75\00:13:15.62
makes those answers flimsy.
00:13:15.66\00:13:17.86
The two need to
intersect, right?
00:13:17.89\00:13:19.46
There needs to
be an intersection
00:13:19.49\00:13:21.03
between rational answers
00:13:21.06\00:13:23.20
and experiential answers, right?
00:13:23.23\00:13:25.83
Absolutely, yeah.
00:13:25.87\00:13:27.20
They both need to
come together somehow.
00:13:27.24\00:13:28.90
Yeah, let me ask you guys,
00:13:28.94\00:13:30.57
every one of us
here at the table,
00:13:30.61\00:13:31.94
we're all converts to the faith.
00:13:31.97\00:13:33.88
We've all become
followers of Jesus.
00:13:33.91\00:13:35.88
We weren't raised in
strong Christian homes.
00:13:35.91\00:13:37.75
I don't think, is that right?
00:13:37.78\00:13:39.11
I was raised in
a Christian home,
00:13:39.15\00:13:40.48
but not really knowing
God or knowing the Bible.
00:13:40.52\00:13:42.38
Okay, that still apply.
00:13:42.42\00:13:43.75
So let me ask you this question.
00:13:43.79\00:13:45.22
Maybe it's too
simple of a question.
00:13:45.25\00:13:46.59
And if it is, just
shut the question down.
00:13:46.62\00:13:48.49
What was it that originally
00:13:48.52\00:13:50.56
sort of began to
open to your awareness?
00:13:50.59\00:13:53.60
Hey, there is a God, He is good.
00:13:53.63\00:13:54.96
In other words, the question is,
00:13:55.00\00:13:56.33
was it primarily intellectual
or was it some emotional thing?
00:13:56.36\00:14:00.34
Well for me, at
the most basic level,
00:14:00.37\00:14:04.07
I had a really pretty girlfriend
00:14:04.11\00:14:05.87
who believed in God.
00:14:05.91\00:14:08.11
Ladies and gentlemen, Ty Gibson.
00:14:08.14\00:14:11.75
And I had a
really lovely mother,
00:14:11.78\00:14:14.15
who began to believe in God.
00:14:14.18\00:14:15.52
Beautiful.
00:14:15.55\00:14:16.89
And I was one of
those teenage kids
00:14:16.92\00:14:19.42
who had a particularly
high level of fondness
00:14:19.45\00:14:22.09
for my mom,
00:14:22.12\00:14:23.56
and I had a lot
of respect for her
00:14:23.59\00:14:25.19
and the fact that
she found belief in God
00:14:25.23\00:14:29.36
tenable made me stop and wonder.
00:14:29.40\00:14:32.47
And then when
my girlfriend said,
00:14:32.50\00:14:34.47
I believed in God ever
since I believed anything.
00:14:34.50\00:14:37.24
And then my mom
and my girlfriend,
00:14:37.27\00:14:39.01
by the way the
girlfriend became my wife,
00:14:39.04\00:14:41.18
but when they began
studying the Bible together,
00:14:41.21\00:14:44.18
I thought, I respect them.
00:14:44.21\00:14:47.12
I love them.
They're intelligent.
00:14:47.15\00:14:50.22
This seems really idiotic.
00:14:50.25\00:14:51.75
I don't know how they
could believe such things.
00:14:51.79\00:14:54.52
But I began to think, hmm,
00:14:54.56\00:14:56.93
if they see something in this,
00:14:56.96\00:14:58.53
maybe I should
explore it at least,
00:14:58.56\00:15:01.40
if for no other reason,
00:15:01.43\00:15:02.76
just so I can
rationalize with them
00:15:02.80\00:15:04.80
and show them
that it's ridiculous.
00:15:04.83\00:15:07.70
Turns out, it's not ridiculous.
00:15:07.74\00:15:09.30
Turns out for me anyway
that very simplistic mom,
00:15:09.34\00:15:14.21
girlfriend conspiring
together against me in my favor.
00:15:14.24\00:15:19.81
Yeah, it turns out that
00:15:19.85\00:15:21.98
that very simple encounter
00:15:22.02\00:15:24.79
led me to ask some of
the very hard questions
00:15:24.82\00:15:28.32
that we're going to
explore in this 13 part series
00:15:28.36\00:15:31.23
and I have to tell you,
there is a rational basis
00:15:31.26\00:15:35.03
for believing in
the existence of God.
00:15:35.06\00:15:36.97
It's not emotional,
it's not just cultural
00:15:37.00\00:15:39.50
telling you what
some of the things
00:15:39.53\00:15:41.20
that we're about to unpack
here are pretty persuasive.
00:15:41.24\00:15:44.47
Because God expects us
to use our brains, right?
00:15:44.51\00:15:47.04
God doesn't expect us to
put our brains on the shelf
00:15:47.08\00:15:49.71
in order to believe.
00:15:49.74\00:15:51.71
In fact, Scripture says
00:15:51.75\00:15:53.08
and you can't
really believe responsibly
00:15:53.11\00:15:54.58
without using and
engaging your mind
00:15:54.62\00:15:56.45
and your intellect. I think...
00:15:56.48\00:15:57.82
What about you guys
the question David asked?
00:15:57.85\00:15:59.19
To me it's more similar,
00:15:59.22\00:16:01.02
I mean, I can't say it
was all logical arguments.
00:16:01.06\00:16:04.99
It wasn't, right?
00:16:05.03\00:16:06.66
I was drawn because I sensed
00:16:06.70\00:16:09.50
that there was
meaning and purpose.
00:16:09.53\00:16:11.10
I encountered Scripture
00:16:11.13\00:16:12.50
and I encountered meaning
and purpose in the gospel.
00:16:12.53\00:16:15.20
So it totally conquered my heart
00:16:15.24\00:16:17.61
when I always tell people,
00:16:17.64\00:16:18.97
I stayed
00:16:19.01\00:16:20.41
because it also
conquered my mind.
00:16:20.44\00:16:24.55
So I was drawn
because it conquered my heart,
00:16:24.58\00:16:27.02
but I stayed in
the relationship,
00:16:27.05\00:16:29.75
"because..."
00:16:29.78\00:16:31.12
It made sense.
00:16:31.15\00:16:32.49
Yeah, what I
believed in my heart
00:16:32.52\00:16:33.86
made sense in my mind.
00:16:33.89\00:16:35.22
So I think it's been a
journey on that basically.
00:16:35.26\00:16:39.03
Have you heard that
little thing that people say,
00:16:39.06\00:16:41.00
the greatest distance
in the world is 18 inches,
00:16:41.03\00:16:43.26
the distance
between a man's or a woman's
00:16:43.30\00:16:45.13
or man's their
mind and their heart.
00:16:45.17\00:16:48.70
Or vice versa, some people
are more emotionally geared,
00:16:48.74\00:16:52.27
and their journey
begins with heart issues
00:16:52.31\00:16:55.34
and gets into the mind.
00:16:55.38\00:16:56.71
Other people are
more intellectually wired
00:16:56.75\00:16:59.28
and it begins with the mind
00:16:59.31\00:17:01.25
and it's a little
more difficult to get...
00:17:01.28\00:17:03.35
It's little hard.
00:17:03.39\00:17:04.89
For those it's opposite,
00:17:04.92\00:17:06.25
if they don't engage their heart
00:17:06.29\00:17:07.62
so what keeps them
is engaging their heart.
00:17:07.66\00:17:09.89
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:09.92\00:17:11.26
That's why I like
David in the Bible.
00:17:11.29\00:17:12.99
He was a man
after God's own heart
00:17:13.03\00:17:14.76
and when you look at his life,
00:17:14.80\00:17:16.53
he was like this
perfect equilibrium
00:17:16.56\00:17:18.80
between intellect and emotion.
00:17:18.83\00:17:21.90
He was a poet, but
he was also a warrior.
00:17:21.94\00:17:26.37
Yeah, for me, I
think it was more
00:17:26.41\00:17:27.88
of an experiential thing.
00:17:27.91\00:17:29.24
I was raised in
a Christian home,
00:17:29.28\00:17:31.78
you know, so to
speak, saying prayers,
00:17:31.81\00:17:34.08
going to church.
00:17:34.12\00:17:35.45
But in my teenage years,
00:17:35.48\00:17:36.82
I was just out in the world
00:17:36.85\00:17:38.19
and I was seeking happiness,
00:17:38.22\00:17:39.72
I was seeking joy, I
was seeking satisfaction,
00:17:39.75\00:17:41.96
fulfillment in the
things of the world
00:17:41.99\00:17:44.89
and I was empty, empty inside,
00:17:44.93\00:17:46.46
I didn't have this love,
00:17:46.49\00:17:47.96
I didn't have this
experimental reality
00:17:48.00\00:17:52.47
that I knew this
experience in reality
00:17:52.50\00:17:54.64
that I knew, I really needed.
00:17:54.67\00:17:56.00
Yeah.
00:17:56.04\00:17:57.37
I was looking for it in friends,
00:17:57.41\00:17:58.74
I was looking for it in life,
00:17:58.77\00:18:00.11
I was looking for it in success,
00:18:00.14\00:18:01.48
I was looking for
satisfaction for love
00:18:01.51\00:18:02.84
for feeling
something that I knew
00:18:02.88\00:18:04.68
I was made for.
00:18:04.71\00:18:06.05
And I just went
down, down, down, down.
00:18:06.08\00:18:08.88
And when I got
to the very bottom,
00:18:08.92\00:18:10.69
I realized just by asking Christ
00:18:10.72\00:18:13.36
to come into my heart,
00:18:13.39\00:18:14.72
I realized and
experienced a peace
00:18:14.76\00:18:16.89
that I think millions,
00:18:16.93\00:18:19.13
if not billions of
people have experienced
00:18:19.16\00:18:20.93
on a level that is practical,
00:18:20.96\00:18:23.03
that causes them to think
00:18:23.06\00:18:24.73
and believe that God is
real and the Bible is real.
00:18:24.77\00:18:28.57
Peace that He offers is real
00:18:28.60\00:18:29.94
because it's
outside of everything else
00:18:29.97\00:18:31.91
that it was
outside of everything else
00:18:31.94\00:18:33.58
I've ever experienced.
00:18:33.61\00:18:34.94
It was something that
was totally supernatural,
00:18:34.98\00:18:38.08
in a very real sense,
became practical in my life.
00:18:38.11\00:18:40.78
There was a peace, joy,
00:18:40.82\00:18:43.35
there was a relief from guilt,
00:18:43.39\00:18:45.95
and it started affecting me
00:18:45.99\00:18:47.99
and impacting me
in my relationship
00:18:48.02\00:18:49.82
with myself with other
people in the way that I lived
00:18:49.86\00:18:52.76
and the choices that
I made and that to me,
00:18:52.79\00:18:55.16
that was before the
Bible ever came into being.
00:18:55.20\00:18:57.53
I didn't know the Bible.
00:18:57.57\00:18:58.90
I knew the Lord's prayers,
00:18:58.93\00:19:00.27
I did every night
whether I was drunk or sober.
00:19:00.30\00:19:01.64
I'd say, Our
Father and Hail Mary
00:19:01.67\00:19:03.41
but before I ever really
got into the Word of God,
00:19:03.44\00:19:06.61
I accepted Christ as my Savior.
00:19:06.64\00:19:08.08
Someone told me to
do, pray this prayer,
00:19:08.11\00:19:10.51
and I experienced peace and joy
00:19:10.55\00:19:12.81
before the
intellectual understanding
00:19:12.85\00:19:14.98
of what I was
doing even hit my head.
00:19:15.02\00:19:16.95
Wow.
00:19:16.99\00:19:18.32
It was a whole heart experience.
00:19:18.35\00:19:19.69
But it would have
been like Jeffrey's
00:19:19.72\00:19:21.06
then so later then
you come to be aware
00:19:21.09\00:19:22.62
of the great
arguments or principles upon
00:19:22.66\00:19:26.63
which intellectual
confidence is built.
00:19:26.66\00:19:29.80
I am taking this
thing that I've experienced,
00:19:29.83\00:19:31.90
this love, this
forgiveness I experienced,
00:19:31.93\00:19:33.67
and I'm
pursuing it to its source
00:19:33.70\00:19:36.17
and its source is in the Bible,
00:19:36.20\00:19:37.71
thinking, wow, that's it.
00:19:37.74\00:19:39.07
And what I'm
finding in the Bible
00:19:39.11\00:19:40.44
matches up with the
experience I've just had.
00:19:40.48\00:19:42.11
Wow. Yeah.
00:19:42.14\00:19:43.48
Powerful.
00:19:43.51\00:19:44.85
Well, my experience
was very similar to that.
00:19:44.88\00:19:46.35
What was yours?
00:19:46.38\00:19:47.72
Well, just being at the bottom
00:19:47.75\00:19:49.08
and needing some
sort of sense of purpose
00:19:49.12\00:19:52.35
of I'm a very
upbeat, very buoyant person,
00:19:52.39\00:19:55.12
but at the time in my
life when I was about 23,
00:19:55.16\00:19:58.23
it was a period of just
deep personal difficulty
00:19:58.26\00:20:01.66
caused by the
ending of a relationship.
00:20:01.70\00:20:03.03
So yours it's interesting,
00:20:03.06\00:20:04.40
your starts a relationship
00:20:04.43\00:20:05.93
and this is like a good thing,
00:20:05.97\00:20:07.30
with mine it was the opposite,
00:20:07.34\00:20:08.67
but it was exactly
as you described that,
00:20:08.70\00:20:10.87
that it started off
that I just invited Jesus
00:20:10.91\00:20:13.07
into my heart,
00:20:13.11\00:20:14.44
and all of a sudden all
these things start happening.
00:20:14.48\00:20:16.28
I'm like, whoa
00:20:16.31\00:20:17.75
and then it's like,
well, wait a minute,
00:20:17.78\00:20:19.11
is this true or not?
00:20:19.15\00:20:20.48
I think it's true.
00:20:20.52\00:20:21.85
And then it goes
to what you're saying.
00:20:21.88\00:20:23.22
You tracing to his story.
00:20:23.25\00:20:24.59
I like the way you say
that tracing to his story.
00:20:24.62\00:20:25.95
Have you guys ever read this?
00:20:25.99\00:20:27.32
I can't remember
maybe you know the source.
00:20:27.36\00:20:28.69
But there's a
Christian philosopher
00:20:28.72\00:20:31.33
who said,
00:20:31.36\00:20:33.03
I believe in order
that I might understand.
00:20:33.06\00:20:36.63
Augustine.
00:20:36.67\00:20:38.00
Yeah, and that's exactly
what you guys are describing.
00:20:38.03\00:20:40.77
You gave your heart to Christ
00:20:40.80\00:20:42.40
and then the
intellectual horizon opened up.
00:20:42.44\00:20:46.14
Faith seeking and understand it.
00:20:46.17\00:20:47.51
Yeah.
00:20:47.54\00:20:48.88
So you began with
an experiential thing
00:20:48.91\00:20:51.21
that grew into an intellectual
00:20:51.25\00:20:53.28
and rational process and so,
00:20:53.31\00:20:56.35
yeah, there are a
lot of people I think,
00:20:56.38\00:20:58.92
who if they
simply look at the data
00:20:58.95\00:21:03.46
and the facts
and they find fault
00:21:03.49\00:21:08.10
in the storyline of Scripture,
00:21:08.13\00:21:12.00
it's just academic
and they'll never move on.
00:21:12.03\00:21:14.47
But if you
begin with the premise
00:21:14.50\00:21:16.10
of wait a minute,
00:21:16.14\00:21:17.47
my heart is telling me
that there is a love to be had,
00:21:17.51\00:21:22.28
there is a perfection of beauty
00:21:22.31\00:21:25.38
out there
somewhere that I long for?
00:21:25.41\00:21:28.42
Well, just taking
that step of initial faith,
00:21:28.45\00:21:30.99
then you start to see things
you wouldn't see otherwise.
00:21:31.02\00:21:34.79
When we come
back after the break,
00:21:34.82\00:21:36.29
I've got a point on that
00:21:36.32\00:21:38.19
that I think is
really persuasive.
00:21:38.23\00:21:40.50
So let's just,
00:21:40.53\00:21:41.86
yeah, let's just
pause, take a break
00:21:41.90\00:21:43.23
and we'll come right back.
00:21:43.26\00:21:44.60
This is the story of Nyima
00:21:55.11\00:21:58.18
who took a bus to the doctor
00:21:58.21\00:22:00.28
and found a piece of paper
with words of hope about Jesus,
00:22:00.32\00:22:05.22
which was left
by a church member
00:22:05.25\00:22:07.39
who unpacked a box
that came from a truck,
00:22:07.42\00:22:10.76
which drove in from Durban
00:22:10.79\00:22:12.53
where ship was docked,
00:22:12.56\00:22:14.23
then it sailed from
Seattle, loaded with containers
00:22:14.26\00:22:18.33
stacked high with
millions of tracts,
00:22:18.37\00:22:21.00
tracked in from the
Light Bearers Publishing House
00:22:21.04\00:22:24.71
where within 600 million
pieces of gospel literature
00:22:24.74\00:22:28.14
have been
printed in 42 languages.
00:22:28.18\00:22:31.25
Here's the amazing thing.
00:22:31.28\00:22:33.31
Light Bearers distribute
this literature free of charge
00:22:33.35\00:22:36.89
all over the world
and each piece cost
00:22:36.92\00:22:40.12
only five pennies to
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00:22:40.16\00:22:45.86
Every day, millions of
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00:22:45.89\00:22:50.27
$5 a cup, five days a week.
00:22:50.30\00:22:53.60
It adds up fast,
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but at just five cents a piece
00:22:55.60\00:22:58.07
that same $25 can also
ship 500 pieces of literature
00:22:58.11\00:23:03.48
and give hope to
people like Nyima
00:23:03.51\00:23:07.88
who shared that
paper with a classmate
00:23:07.92\00:23:10.32
who gave it to her cousin,
00:23:10.35\00:23:12.52
who shared it with his boss,
00:23:12.55\00:23:14.59
who passed it
to her grandmother,
00:23:14.62\00:23:16.83
who left it on another bus,
00:23:16.86\00:23:19.46
where it will be
found by someone else
00:23:19.49\00:23:22.86
and the story continues.
00:23:22.90\00:23:26.57
Five cents doesn't
buy a lot these days.
00:23:26.60\00:23:29.20
But in other parts of the world,
00:23:29.24\00:23:31.01
your nickel could
change someone's life.
00:23:31.04\00:23:34.38
Your gift of $25 a month
00:23:34.41\00:23:36.64
sends out 6,000 pieces of
gospel literature each year.
00:23:36.68\00:23:40.92
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00:23:40.95\00:23:43.69
and $100 a month
00:23:43.72\00:23:45.55
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00:23:45.59\00:23:48.12
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00:23:48.16\00:23:52.69
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Send your gift
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00:23:56.10\00:23:58.93
or by calling 877-585-1111.
00:23:58.97\00:24:04.21
Who knew five little
pennies could do so much.
00:24:04.24\00:24:07.91
So at the close of the
first little conversation
00:24:14.42\00:24:17.79
that we had there, we
were talking about how for,
00:24:17.82\00:24:20.66
I think all of us and
certainly for many people,
00:24:20.69\00:24:23.09
there's this initial sort
of experiential heart moment,
00:24:23.12\00:24:27.30
but then there's
the, okay, is this true
00:24:27.33\00:24:29.40
or if I just kind
of tricked myself?
00:24:29.43\00:24:31.87
And I was thinking about,
00:24:31.90\00:24:33.23
I had said something
that I wanted to make a point
00:24:33.27\00:24:35.30
and that is that it
was several years ago,
00:24:35.34\00:24:37.97
actually, in a series of
lectures by Dr. John Lennox.
00:24:38.01\00:24:40.64
I heard him say that
00:24:40.68\00:24:42.24
the word skeptic actually comes
from the Greek word skepton
00:24:42.28\00:24:47.22
which means to view or
to observe from a distance.
00:24:47.25\00:24:52.02
Right, so to be over here,
00:24:52.05\00:24:53.39
and to be skeptical,
00:24:53.42\00:24:54.76
to be aloof from, non
committal about something.
00:24:54.79\00:24:57.13
And the point that he made
00:24:57.16\00:24:58.49
and I thought it
was so profound was,
00:24:58.53\00:25:00.03
that if God was just an idea
00:25:00.06\00:25:02.16
or a concept or a
philosophy, right,
00:25:02.20\00:25:04.63
like an economic idea
or a political philosophy,
00:25:04.67\00:25:06.97
you could be aloof from it,
00:25:07.00\00:25:08.34
you could be skeptical about it.
00:25:08.37\00:25:10.11
But God is not an idea.
00:25:10.14\00:25:11.47
God is not a
concept, He's a person.
00:25:11.51\00:25:14.24
And the only way to
get to know a person
00:25:14.28\00:25:17.05
is to draw close to them.
00:25:17.08\00:25:18.41
You have to, at some level,
surrender an initial skepticism
00:25:18.45\00:25:22.82
about that
person across the room,
00:25:22.85\00:25:24.45
about that person
who's sitting next to you
00:25:24.49\00:25:25.82
on the airplane or God.
00:25:25.85\00:25:28.36
In other words,
God isn't mere data,
00:25:28.39\00:25:30.16
it's not just, He's
not composed of facts.
00:25:30.19\00:25:34.03
That's why you can
have university professors
00:25:34.06\00:25:37.10
at a university who are
heads of religion departments
00:25:37.13\00:25:42.57
and they're atheists,
00:25:42.60\00:25:43.94
because they're just analyzing
00:25:43.97\00:25:46.07
and poking holes in the
data and the information.
00:25:46.11\00:25:50.35
They're not
drawing in and saying,
00:25:50.38\00:25:52.31
"Wait a minute,
what does God look like
00:25:52.35\00:25:55.22
on the interior of the subject."
00:25:55.25\00:25:58.59
That kind of goes with
something that Jesus said,
00:25:58.62\00:26:01.59
this whole, I think
we quoted Augustine,
00:26:01.62\00:26:04.53
faith seeking, understanding.
00:26:04.56\00:26:05.89
Yeah, faith
seeking, understanding,
00:26:05.93\00:26:07.26
I believe in order to understand
00:26:07.30\00:26:11.27
and in John 7:17,
00:26:11.30\00:26:14.17
Jesus says something similar.
00:26:14.20\00:26:16.20
He says, "If anyone
wills to do His will,
00:26:16.24\00:26:20.51
he shall know
concerning the doctrine."
00:26:20.54\00:26:23.91
So he shall know,
he shall understand.
00:26:23.95\00:26:26.51
If anyone wills,
he shall understand
00:26:26.55\00:26:29.02
whether it is from God,
00:26:29.05\00:26:31.02
or whether I speak
on my own authority.
00:26:31.05\00:26:33.72
So Jesus walked around saying,
00:26:33.76\00:26:36.49
the only way you
can actually discover
00:26:36.52\00:26:38.49
whether or not
what I say the claims
00:26:38.53\00:26:41.53
that I'm making
are true or false
00:26:41.56\00:26:42.90
is you have to, like you said,
00:26:42.93\00:26:45.03
approach and come
close in order to discover.
00:26:45.07\00:26:48.67
You can't
observe from a distance
00:26:48.70\00:26:50.04
with skepticism only
looking for contradictions.
00:26:50.07\00:26:53.78
You'll find what
you look for basically.
00:26:53.81\00:26:56.31
I was thinking it's interesting
that you would quote there
00:26:56.34\00:26:58.38
John 17, I was thinking of...
00:26:58.41\00:26:59.75
John 7:17. It's John 7:17.
00:26:59.78\00:27:01.75
Thank you, I was
thinking of Matthew 11,
00:27:01.78\00:27:03.69
where the invitation
00:27:03.72\00:27:05.05
that Jesus gives
is very emotional.
00:27:05.09\00:27:06.79
It's very personal
00:27:06.82\00:27:08.26
it's from a person to a person
00:27:08.29\00:27:10.79
come unto me all ye that labor
00:27:10.83\00:27:12.49
and are heavy laden.
00:27:12.53\00:27:13.86
We were talking about
that in the first segment,
00:27:13.90\00:27:15.23
you know, this lady that
you're on the phone with,
00:27:15.26\00:27:16.63
she's, she needs
rest, she's burdened.
00:27:16.67\00:27:19.53
Come unto me, all ye that
labor and are heavy laden,
00:27:19.57\00:27:21.44
I will give you rest.
00:27:21.47\00:27:22.80
In other words, the invitation
is not to a mental assent
00:27:22.84\00:27:26.51
to a body of
ideas, to a bunch of data.
00:27:26.54\00:27:29.54
I believe that, I
believe A, B, C, D, E, F, and G
00:27:29.58\00:27:32.31
and therefore I am
persuaded that there is a God.
00:27:32.35\00:27:34.05
I'm not saying that there's
not an intellectual component,
00:27:34.08\00:27:35.88
there is, and we're
going to talk about that.
00:27:35.92\00:27:37.69
But at the core
level of what God is.
00:27:37.72\00:27:40.39
He's love. He
has a relationship.
00:27:40.42\00:27:41.92
He's a being, He's a
person to whom we draw near
00:27:41.96\00:27:46.43
and as we draw near,
00:27:46.46\00:27:47.96
then that nationed
faith, that embryonic faith
00:27:48.00\00:27:52.73
grows into an
increasingly mature
00:27:52.77\00:27:55.14
and even intellectually
satisfying understanding.
00:27:55.17\00:27:58.24
And that's not to say that
00:27:58.27\00:28:01.74
somebody could not
encounter the gospel,
00:28:01.78\00:28:05.08
the message of the gospel...
00:28:05.11\00:28:06.98
Starting the other way.
00:28:07.02\00:28:08.35
Yeah, without, in other words,
00:28:08.38\00:28:09.72
I don't have to
be emotionally needy
00:28:09.75\00:28:11.82
in order to appreciate
the claims of the gospel.
00:28:11.85\00:28:14.26
Right?
00:28:14.29\00:28:15.62
I do think
everybody's emotionally needy,
00:28:15.66\00:28:16.99
whether or not
they're aware of it.
00:28:17.03\00:28:18.36
They don't know that they are,
00:28:18.39\00:28:19.73
but they're not
operating on that.
00:28:19.76\00:28:21.10
I know what you're saying.
00:28:21.13\00:28:22.46
And that brings
me to a point that
00:28:22.50\00:28:23.83
I was thinking about
when you were talking,
00:28:23.87\00:28:25.20
I was thinking that everyone's
breaking point is different.
00:28:25.23\00:28:26.94
There you go.
00:28:26.97\00:28:28.30
So some of us,
we're very strong willed,
00:28:28.34\00:28:30.67
we have a very
strong capability in life
00:28:30.71\00:28:33.88
of achieving our
goals and setting out
00:28:33.91\00:28:36.78
to accomplish the things
00:28:36.81\00:28:38.55
that we think
will make us happy,
00:28:38.58\00:28:40.05
and other people are very weak
00:28:40.08\00:28:41.98
and the different levels
00:28:42.02\00:28:43.99
of breaking
points for all of us,
00:28:44.02\00:28:46.22
right for me, for example,
00:28:46.25\00:28:48.16
I was determined, I
mean, bound and determined
00:28:48.19\00:28:50.49
and I was moving
through systematically life
00:28:50.53\00:28:52.93
one accomplishment after another
00:28:52.96\00:28:55.06
to find my happiness.
00:28:55.10\00:28:56.43
I was going to, I was
driven, I was going to find it.
00:28:56.46\00:28:58.60
And you know, God was
just a thing on the side
00:28:58.63\00:29:01.30
that I was raised to believe in
00:29:01.34\00:29:03.04
and so He wasn't a major
part of focus of my life.
00:29:03.07\00:29:06.07
With some people,
00:29:06.11\00:29:07.44
they're raised
in such a powerful,
00:29:07.48\00:29:09.74
let's say,
Christian environment,
00:29:09.78\00:29:11.51
that they might be in
their own understanding
00:29:11.55\00:29:14.18
intellectually of the Bible,
00:29:14.22\00:29:16.48
unable to deal with the smallest
00:29:16.52\00:29:20.06
little deviation in their life,
00:29:20.09\00:29:22.52
from what is
absolutely joyful, loving, etc.
00:29:22.56\00:29:26.03
and it may just
throw them for a loop.
00:29:26.06\00:29:27.63
And what I think
happens at times is,
00:29:27.66\00:29:30.20
is that God has to dismantle
all of this intellectual stuff
00:29:30.23\00:29:33.80
that we think is Him
00:29:33.84\00:29:35.64
in order for us to get
into a relationship with Him
00:29:35.67\00:29:38.61
that is fundamental
to all that information
00:29:38.64\00:29:41.11
if you know what
I am trying to say.
00:29:41.14\00:29:42.48
Yeah, we follow
what you're saying.
00:29:42.51\00:29:43.85
So what sometimes we do
00:29:43.88\00:29:45.21
and we get a trial, as we say,
00:29:45.25\00:29:46.58
"Well, wait a minute,
00:29:46.61\00:29:47.95
this isn't
supposed to happen to me."
00:29:47.98\00:29:49.32
The Bible says and
these promises say,
00:29:49.35\00:29:51.09
and my pastor said this,
00:29:51.12\00:29:52.59
this stuff isn't
supposed to happen.
00:29:52.62\00:29:53.96
But God says, "No wait a minute,
00:29:53.99\00:29:55.32
that's not Me.
00:29:55.36\00:29:56.76
That's intellectual stuff.
00:29:56.79\00:29:58.99
But Me, I want you
have a relationship with Me,
00:29:59.03\00:30:00.83
and when you have a
relationship with Me,
00:30:00.86\00:30:02.20
it doesn't matter what happens."
00:30:02.23\00:30:03.57
There you go.
00:30:03.60\00:30:04.93
None of that matters anymore.
00:30:04.97\00:30:06.30
It's like we were talking
about that in first segment
00:30:06.33\00:30:07.67
that too often we take
this very fast style view
00:30:07.70\00:30:09.57
that if you believe
then everything lines up,
00:30:09.60\00:30:12.47
but life's not that way.
00:30:12.51\00:30:14.81
Life is messy. It's tricky.
00:30:14.84\00:30:16.85
See what you guys think of this
00:30:16.88\00:30:18.21
because I think that
this bears out in just
00:30:18.25\00:30:24.19
about every human
beings experience.
00:30:24.22\00:30:26.35
We're all familiar
with Bertrand Russell,
00:30:26.39\00:30:28.32
the British
mathematician and philosopher,
00:30:28.36\00:30:31.13
who was one of the
strongest advocates of atheism.
00:30:31.16\00:30:34.73
And just see what do you think
00:30:34.76\00:30:36.13
about the
comparison of these two quotes.
00:30:36.16\00:30:37.97
This is a quotation
from his early career
00:30:38.00\00:30:41.60
in philosophy and
advocating atheism.
00:30:41.64\00:30:44.67
And he said, "If you accept
the ordinary laws of science,
00:30:44.71\00:30:48.04
you have to
suppose that human life
00:30:48.08\00:30:50.45
and life in
general on this planet
00:30:50.48\00:30:52.71
will die out in due course,
it is a mere flash in the pan.
00:30:52.75\00:30:57.09
It is a stage in the
decay of the solar system.
00:30:57.12\00:31:00.92
At a certain stage in the decay,
00:31:00.96\00:31:02.59
you get the sort of
conditions and temperature
00:31:02.62\00:31:04.93
and so forth that are
suitable for proto plasma
00:31:04.96\00:31:08.33
and there is life for
a short period of time
00:31:08.36\00:31:11.27
in the solar system.
00:31:11.30\00:31:13.00
You see in the moon however,
00:31:13.03\00:31:14.87
the sort of thing to
which earth is tending
00:31:14.90\00:31:17.71
something dead,
cold, and lifeless.
00:31:17.74\00:31:20.01
He's basically
communicating the materialistic
00:31:20.04\00:31:22.54
and he's saying, this is really,
00:31:22.58\00:31:24.01
we're a flash in
the pan, life is just...
00:31:24.05\00:31:26.01
Okay, but that's
early in his career.
00:31:26.05\00:31:27.78
Okay.
00:31:27.82\00:31:29.15
Very stoic,
factual, data driven atheist.
00:31:29.18\00:31:32.62
This is toward
the end of his life
00:31:32.65\00:31:34.42
a few years before he died.
00:31:34.46\00:31:36.59
Same guy says,
00:31:36.62\00:31:38.99
"Nothing can penetrate
00:31:39.03\00:31:41.46
the loneliness
of the human heart,
00:31:41.50\00:31:44.50
except the
intensity of the highest order
00:31:44.53\00:31:48.37
of the sort of love
00:31:48.40\00:31:50.44
that the religious
teachers have preached."
00:31:50.47\00:31:53.21
So, do you see
what this guy is saying,
00:31:53.24\00:31:56.08
I mean, early in his career
with his academic stoicism,
00:31:56.11\00:32:01.05
basically our universe
means nothing and we're just,
00:32:01.08\00:32:03.89
it's just a flash in the
pan and life has no meaning.
00:32:03.92\00:32:07.32
Toward the end of his life
he's saying, wait a minute,
00:32:07.36\00:32:09.89
he's saying, the only
way for the human heart
00:32:09.92\00:32:13.76
to really be
cured of its loneliness
00:32:13.80\00:32:16.87
that's at the core of all of us,
00:32:16.90\00:32:18.57
is with the
intensity of the sort of love
00:32:18.60\00:32:21.40
that people who believe
in God are talking about.
00:32:21.44\00:32:23.91
Isn't that amazing?
I'd say that's fantastic.
00:32:23.94\00:32:25.27
You know what, like every
single person on planet earth
00:32:25.31\00:32:27.48
who's ever lived
or ever will live
00:32:27.51\00:32:28.84
is gonna come to that conclusion
00:32:28.88\00:32:30.21
at one point or another.
00:32:30.25\00:32:31.65
And that's the point
we were making earlier
00:32:31.68\00:32:33.52
and that is everyone
has a breaking point.
00:32:33.55\00:32:34.92
Everyone has a point
00:32:34.95\00:32:36.28
at which they
realize that love...
00:32:36.32\00:32:37.95
There we go.
00:32:37.99\00:32:39.32
Is that foundation,
it's the building block
00:32:39.35\00:32:40.69
and every knee is gonna bow
00:32:40.72\00:32:42.12
every time it's going to confess
00:32:42.16\00:32:43.49
that one truth.
00:32:43.53\00:32:45.09
It's just that some
of us on planet earth
00:32:45.13\00:32:47.16
are so
indoctrinated in the material
00:32:47.20\00:32:51.27
and the intellectual
that it's hard for us
00:32:51.30\00:32:53.47
to enter into this reality,
00:32:53.50\00:32:55.10
this experiential reality
00:32:55.14\00:32:56.60
that all of us are
made for that all of us do.
00:32:56.64\00:32:58.37
I loved when you
said in the first session
00:32:58.41\00:32:59.84
that we are built for love.
00:32:59.87\00:33:02.31
That's so true.
That's exactly right.
00:33:02.34\00:33:03.68
We are built.
00:33:03.71\00:33:05.05
We are built to
love and to be loved.
00:33:05.08\00:33:06.55
I think you've
written, that's in your book.
00:33:06.58\00:33:08.28
That's A God Named Desire.
00:33:08.32\00:33:10.15
Let me throw another one
out. This is fascinating.
00:33:10.19\00:33:12.52
Sigmund Freud was the
founder of psychotherapy.
00:33:12.55\00:33:16.76
And he was an ardent
atheist to his dying day
00:33:16.79\00:33:21.93
but he also with all of
his academic God doesn't exist,
00:33:21.96\00:33:26.33
he said, religion is irrelevant.
00:33:26.37\00:33:28.40
He comes to the end of his life
and quoting from Freud himself,
00:33:28.44\00:33:32.54
he says that as he
came to the end of his life,
00:33:32.57\00:33:34.84
that he can't deny that
there is a strange, secret
00:33:34.88\00:33:40.22
because academically
00:33:40.25\00:33:41.58
he couldn't come
right out to say this.
00:33:41.62\00:33:44.39
That he was possessed
of strange secret longings
00:33:44.42\00:33:48.59
for a life of
quite another kind.
00:33:48.62\00:33:52.49
Isn't that something?
00:33:52.53\00:33:53.86
So there is this stoic atheist
who is saying there is no God.
00:33:53.90\00:33:57.90
He comes to the end of his life
and he's like, wait a minute.
00:33:57.93\00:34:00.74
I'd long for something secretly
00:34:00.77\00:34:03.84
that is for a life of
quite a different context.
00:34:03.87\00:34:07.34
That in fact to the point
that we were saying is that
00:34:07.38\00:34:09.01
there's two strands to this.
00:34:09.04\00:34:10.65
There's just dry, logical,
your intellect and facts,
00:34:10.68\00:34:16.48
like you're saying information.
00:34:16.52\00:34:17.85
And then there's
the human experience...
00:34:17.89\00:34:21.06
That longs for to
love, to be loved.
00:34:21.09\00:34:23.73
Whatever our beliefs are,
those two have to intersect.
00:34:23.76\00:34:27.20
So you have an atheist over here
00:34:27.23\00:34:28.56
who's just
operating on just a hard,
00:34:28.60\00:34:31.07
you know, dry, lifeless facts
or logic that they believe in,
00:34:31.10\00:34:36.57
but yet it doesn't correspond
00:34:36.60\00:34:38.64
to the reality of
their own human experience.
00:34:38.67\00:34:42.04
Okay, so we've talked
about the experiential side,
00:34:42.08\00:34:44.81
and we only have so many
minutes for this conversation.
00:34:44.85\00:34:47.32
So we've acknowledged
that there is a rational side,
00:34:47.35\00:34:51.45
there is a data driven side.
00:34:51.49\00:34:54.12
And there are really
good rational reasons
00:34:54.16\00:34:57.16
to believe that God exists.
00:34:57.19\00:34:58.83
I mean, our question
for this first program,
00:34:58.86\00:35:01.26
this first
conversation is does God exist?
00:35:01.30\00:35:03.40
And how can I know?
00:35:03.43\00:35:04.80
So what are some of the reasons
00:35:04.83\00:35:07.74
that are most
persuasive to you guys?
00:35:07.77\00:35:11.11
I mean, we know there are...
00:35:11.14\00:35:12.74
We can make a list of
good, intellectual, rational,
00:35:12.77\00:35:15.84
logical reasons to
believe in the existence of God.
00:35:15.88\00:35:19.48
Which ones appeal to you?
00:35:19.51\00:35:21.05
Or if you had to pick one,
00:35:21.08\00:35:22.42
what's the most
persuasive for you?
00:35:22.45\00:35:23.79
But there's a lot for me,
there's a lot of strands of,
00:35:23.82\00:35:26.76
you know,
evidence, cumulative hands,
00:35:26.79\00:35:28.19
yes, cumulative.
00:35:28.22\00:35:29.56
It's, there's corroborating
evidence everywhere we look.
00:35:29.59\00:35:31.56
But what I find most compelling
00:35:31.59\00:35:34.76
I mean, we can
string up arguments
00:35:34.80\00:35:37.47
from scientific
discoveries and all of that
00:35:37.50\00:35:39.23
and that's compelling, right?
00:35:39.27\00:35:40.60
We have to pay
attention to that.
00:35:40.64\00:35:42.30
But what I find compelling is
00:35:42.34\00:35:45.17
if you remove God
from the equation,
00:35:45.21\00:35:48.24
what does reality look like?
00:35:48.28\00:35:50.98
So, on one point of this,
00:35:51.01\00:35:53.35
I think of value,
00:35:53.38\00:35:56.22
purpose and
meaning in human life
00:35:56.25\00:35:59.35
and that's the thing
that I go back to always
00:35:59.39\00:36:01.62
if God did not exist,
00:36:01.66\00:36:04.53
how do we account for our belief
00:36:04.56\00:36:07.26
in other human
beings having value?
00:36:07.30\00:36:10.50
So if I'm going to remove
God from the equation and say,
00:36:10.53\00:36:13.47
I'm an atheist, I don't
believe in the existence of God,
00:36:13.50\00:36:15.90
then now I have a
problem because now,
00:36:15.94\00:36:18.31
I live as though
other people have value.
00:36:18.34\00:36:21.98
I live as though
other people are meaningful,
00:36:22.01\00:36:25.65
as though there's
purpose to human life.
00:36:25.68\00:36:28.52
But I can't
account for that purpose
00:36:28.55\00:36:30.95
if God is out of the picture.
00:36:30.99\00:36:32.32
Why not?
00:36:32.35\00:36:33.69
Well, because if God
is out of the picture,
00:36:33.72\00:36:35.59
then we have to find
an alternative explanation
00:36:35.62\00:36:38.89
for who we are.
00:36:38.93\00:36:40.60
And the dominant
alternative explanation is
00:36:40.63\00:36:45.87
Darwinian evolution.
00:36:45.90\00:36:47.24
We're here just
00:36:47.27\00:36:48.60
through the natural
processes of nature.
00:36:48.64\00:36:49.97
We are a flash in the pan,
in the pan of the universe.
00:36:50.01\00:36:52.11
And we're gonna get to that
00:36:52.14\00:36:53.48
I'm sure at a
future difficult question,
00:36:53.51\00:36:55.74
but if that's true,
00:36:55.78\00:36:58.91
how do you account for value
00:36:58.95\00:37:00.45
if it's survival of the fittest,
00:37:00.48\00:37:01.92
only the strong survive.
00:37:01.95\00:37:03.28
If I were here to propagate DNA,
00:37:03.32\00:37:05.22
then on the
basis of what do I say,
00:37:05.25\00:37:07.56
other human beings have value
00:37:07.59\00:37:09.49
and live as
though they have value.
00:37:09.52\00:37:12.43
So I can only account for
that if God is in the picture.
00:37:12.46\00:37:15.33
I think what you're
saying, let me just clarify
00:37:15.36\00:37:17.20
because I think
this is really important.
00:37:17.23\00:37:19.13
Are you saying that,
00:37:19.17\00:37:20.60
that if I don't
believe in God's existence,
00:37:20.64\00:37:23.41
I tend to live in
contradiction to that?
00:37:23.44\00:37:25.87
Yeah, you can say,
"I don't believe in God"
00:37:25.91\00:37:28.84
and still be a moral person,
00:37:28.88\00:37:30.65
still be
somebody who treats other
00:37:30.68\00:37:32.21
as though they have value.
00:37:32.25\00:37:33.78
Clearly, the world is
populated with people like that.
00:37:33.82\00:37:36.89
The point is not
that, the point is,
00:37:36.92\00:37:39.15
can you consistently live life
00:37:39.19\00:37:42.12
assuming that
there's such thing as love,
00:37:42.16\00:37:47.10
can you live as
though there's love?
00:37:47.13\00:37:49.70
And at the same time,
reject that there's a God
00:37:49.73\00:37:52.83
and we're only here
through mechanical processes
00:37:52.87\00:37:55.64
that are not intelligible,
that are not intentional?
00:37:55.67\00:37:59.41
It's just the
undirected process of nature,
00:37:59.44\00:38:04.25
and yet, there's
purpose, meaning, and value
00:38:04.28\00:38:07.02
in individual lives.
00:38:07.05\00:38:08.38
Love and good and evil.
00:38:08.42\00:38:09.75
Right, so to me
that's what's most compelling
00:38:09.78\00:38:11.42
out of all of
the things that I see
00:38:11.45\00:38:13.89
is that the
basic fundamental level
00:38:13.92\00:38:15.29
when I wake up in the morning,
00:38:15.32\00:38:16.66
I assume there's
purpose and meaning in life.
00:38:16.69\00:38:19.13
Now where did that
assumption come from?
00:38:19.16\00:38:20.63
Yeah.
00:38:20.66\00:38:22.00
So and it's not just
Jeffrey that assumes that,
00:38:22.03\00:38:24.47
you take a look
at all the movies
00:38:24.50\00:38:26.63
that Hollywood
creates or whatever,
00:38:26.67\00:38:28.84
you know, there's triumph,
there's honor, there's valor.
00:38:28.87\00:38:31.11
Not every movie, there's some
just terrible ones out there,
00:38:31.14\00:38:32.94
but honor, valor, triumph, hope,
00:38:32.97\00:38:37.15
dreams, the underdog, dignity,
00:38:37.18\00:38:40.92
you know, we are
clearly being appealed to,
00:38:40.95\00:38:44.15
we are being
entertained by things
00:38:44.19\00:38:45.85
that are already
resonant in our heart,
00:38:45.89\00:38:47.32
Hollywood's not creating
a thing and then saying,
00:38:47.36\00:38:49.79
hey, this should
be resonant with you.
00:38:49.82\00:38:51.16
There's already something in us
00:38:51.19\00:38:52.86
that longs for
that and you're saying,
00:38:52.89\00:38:55.36
okay, so in the absence of
God, here's how I would say,
00:38:55.40\00:38:58.47
if there was no God, movies
as an extension of reality
00:38:58.50\00:39:02.20
would look very
different than they do now.
00:39:02.24\00:39:03.81
Life would look different,
00:39:03.84\00:39:05.17
marriage would look different...
00:39:05.21\00:39:06.54
It would never appeal
to your inherent intuition
00:39:06.57\00:39:08.18
that there's a key purpose.
00:39:08.21\00:39:09.84
It says if we literally
can't tell any other storyline,
00:39:09.88\00:39:16.02
it doesn't occur
to us to tell a story
00:39:16.05\00:39:18.19
that doesn't have the
elements of good and evil
00:39:18.22\00:39:20.69
and the hope that
good triumphs or love
00:39:20.72\00:39:23.59
and the pursuit for love and,
00:39:23.63\00:39:25.53
and love being broken apart,
00:39:25.56\00:39:27.03
and then pursuing love
and hoping that it works out.
00:39:27.06\00:39:29.90
We don't know
any other storyline.
00:39:29.93\00:39:31.27
That is the story.
00:39:31.30\00:39:32.63
I mean, try to think of a story
00:39:32.67\00:39:34.57
that doesn't have
those elements in it.
00:39:34.60\00:39:36.84
And here's something
else that's really interesting
00:39:36.87\00:39:38.51
and that is in movies,
death is a very sad thing.
00:39:38.54\00:39:42.14
A sad movie is one
that ends if the hero dies,
00:39:42.18\00:39:44.85
one that ends in
death of some kind.
00:39:44.88\00:39:46.61
That's a sad movie.
00:39:46.65\00:39:47.98
Well, in the Bible
in 1 Corinthians 15,
00:39:48.02\00:39:49.98
death is an enemy to God.
00:39:50.02\00:39:52.19
Death is something that
God is going to destroy.
00:39:52.22\00:39:54.39
So how do you
separate those two ideas?
00:39:54.42\00:39:56.69
You can't
separate those two ideas,
00:39:56.73\00:39:58.06
death is a sad
thing on a natural world
00:39:58.09\00:40:00.23
that we live in, and
to God death is an enemy.
00:40:00.26\00:40:02.73
This is a really, really
helpful conversation for me.
00:40:02.76\00:40:06.07
This is stimulating
00:40:06.10\00:40:07.54
and we have other good
rational reasons to talk about,
00:40:07.57\00:40:12.04
but we need to
take another break.
00:40:12.07\00:40:13.41
So when we come back,
00:40:13.44\00:40:14.78
let's just crack it
open a little bit more.
00:40:14.81\00:40:16.44
Sounds good.
00:40:16.48\00:40:17.81
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Before the break, we said,
00:41:23.61\00:41:25.55
"Hey, let's just start getting
into the rational arguments
00:41:25.58\00:41:29.65
for the existence of God."
00:41:29.68\00:41:31.59
We've pretty much nailed down
00:41:31.62\00:41:33.29
that there is an
experiential aspect.
00:41:33.32\00:41:36.12
But what are some of the good,
00:41:36.16\00:41:39.69
rational, logical reasons
00:41:39.73\00:41:42.33
to believe in
the existence of God.
00:41:42.36\00:41:44.33
Now, somebody before the break
00:41:44.37\00:41:46.74
actually started
breaking one down,
00:41:46.77\00:41:48.10
No, it was Jeffrey
was giving his number one
00:41:48.14\00:41:51.64
or is what appeals to your mind.
00:41:51.67\00:41:53.38
Just meaning.
00:41:53.41\00:41:54.74
Yeah, so anybody else,
00:41:54.78\00:41:56.11
what are good rational arguments
00:41:56.14\00:41:57.75
for the existence of God?
00:41:57.78\00:41:59.11
The argument that I find
most persuasive or the evidence
00:41:59.15\00:42:00.98
that I find most persuasive
00:42:01.02\00:42:02.42
and that's a
difficult thing to say, right?
00:42:02.45\00:42:03.99
Because there are many things,
00:42:04.02\00:42:05.42
it's like you
said it's cumulative,
00:42:05.45\00:42:07.06
it's the composite of
corroborating evidence.
00:42:07.09\00:42:10.09
But something that I come
back to over and over again,
00:42:10.13\00:42:13.13
is really two
arguments that merge into one,
00:42:13.16\00:42:15.06
two pieces of
evidence that merge into one.
00:42:15.10\00:42:16.97
And that is, the universe
that we live in is a universe
00:42:17.00\00:42:21.30
that is conducive,
00:42:21.34\00:42:23.17
not just to life
but this is a key point
00:42:23.20\00:42:26.51
to the existence
of self reflective,
00:42:26.54\00:42:29.78
intelligent, self
aware life so there's that.
00:42:29.81\00:42:33.25
And then over
here that minds exist,
00:42:33.28\00:42:36.22
not just brains.
00:42:36.25\00:42:37.65
A brain is an organ, you know,
located inside of the skull.
00:42:37.69\00:42:41.52
But there's this
thing called the mind.
00:42:41.56\00:42:43.76
It's immaterial.
00:42:43.79\00:42:45.13
It's immaterial,
it's non-physical,
00:42:45.16\00:42:46.49
it's your identity,
it's your character,
00:42:46.53\00:42:48.30
it's your hopes,
it's your dreams,
00:42:48.33\00:42:49.66
it's the you-ness
that makes you, you.
00:42:49.70\00:42:52.03
Now you put these
two things together,
00:42:52.07\00:42:53.40
not only do we have a universe
00:42:53.44\00:42:55.57
with all of its
physical constants,
00:42:55.60\00:42:57.84
the cosmologists and
other scientists have said,
00:42:57.87\00:42:59.97
Hey, man, the universe's
really well tuned, fine tuned
00:43:00.01\00:43:03.95
for the existence of life.
00:43:03.98\00:43:05.31
Okay, fine.
00:43:05.35\00:43:06.68
But if the highest
level of life on earth was,
00:43:06.72\00:43:09.42
say a canary, or an earthworm,
00:43:09.45\00:43:12.35
or even a horse,
00:43:12.39\00:43:14.22
life would still be beautiful.
00:43:14.26\00:43:15.59
There'd be
valleys, there'd be flowers,
00:43:15.62\00:43:16.96
there'd be photosynthesis,
00:43:16.99\00:43:18.33
there'd be all
of this beauty here,
00:43:18.36\00:43:19.69
all of the symmetry
00:43:19.73\00:43:21.16
but there would be no
mind to appreciate it.
00:43:21.20\00:43:23.60
You could say it like
this, nobody would know it.
00:43:23.63\00:43:25.53
No one would know.
00:43:25.57\00:43:26.90
The world will be beautiful
but nobody would know it.
00:43:26.94\00:43:28.27
So you take these two things,
you have a fantastically,
00:43:28.30\00:43:30.21
well designed,
fine tuned universe
00:43:30.24\00:43:32.54
that is
conducive to the existence
00:43:32.57\00:43:34.28
and proliferation of
the diversity of life,
00:43:34.31\00:43:36.38
the origin and
diversity of life.
00:43:36.41\00:43:37.88
And then you put
human minds into it
00:43:37.91\00:43:40.88
that are able to
apprehend the beauty
00:43:40.92\00:43:43.12
that would be there,
even if the mind wasn't.
00:43:43.15\00:43:46.79
This goes back to a quotation
00:43:46.82\00:43:48.72
that I've just
thought about quite a bit
00:43:48.76\00:43:50.66
and I love and Einstein said it
00:43:50.69\00:43:52.66
on a number of different
occasions in different ways.
00:43:52.69\00:43:54.73
And so I'll sort of
put some of them together.
00:43:54.76\00:43:56.67
He essentially said that
the most incomprehensible thing
00:43:56.70\00:43:59.77
about the universe is
precisely its comprehensibility.
00:43:59.80\00:44:04.67
The fact that
there are minds here
00:44:04.71\00:44:07.04
to think about
00:44:07.08\00:44:09.08
the nature of the
distance to the sun
00:44:09.11\00:44:11.18
or the photosynthetic process
00:44:11.21\00:44:12.95
or the
neurochemistry in the brain,
00:44:12.98\00:44:15.68
the fact that
there are minds here
00:44:15.72\00:44:17.12
that are
apprehending all of this.
00:44:17.15\00:44:19.59
And I like the
way CS Lewis says it,
00:44:19.62\00:44:21.52
speaking of the
same phenomenon, he says,
00:44:21.56\00:44:23.53
surely this ought to
raise our suspicions.
00:44:23.56\00:44:25.89
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:25.93\00:44:27.26
You know, not
just because again,
00:44:27.30\00:44:29.30
life is one thing,
00:44:29.33\00:44:30.67
life is a
miracle in and of itself,
00:44:30.70\00:44:32.23
but the existence of intelligent
00:44:32.27\00:44:34.64
self reflective life
00:44:34.67\00:44:36.20
that is aware of
its place in the cosmos.
00:44:36.24\00:44:38.41
To me, this is far
more than a coincidence.
00:44:38.44\00:44:40.78
It's far more than
a happy coincidence.
00:44:40.81\00:44:43.18
It is an evidence that screams
00:44:43.21\00:44:48.25
the existence of a creator God
00:44:48.28\00:44:50.55
who purposefully,
intentionally made
00:44:50.59\00:44:52.42
not only the universe as it is,
00:44:52.45\00:44:54.16
but minds to appreciate
00:44:54.19\00:44:55.56
and apprehend the
beauty that's there.
00:44:55.59\00:44:57.16
I'm thinking of a scripture
00:44:57.19\00:44:58.79
that that actually
communicates the very point
00:44:58.83\00:45:02.26
that you're bringing
up in Romans Chapter 1.
00:45:02.30\00:45:04.87
Romans 1:19-20.
00:45:04.90\00:45:08.10
I don't know if
you guys have noticed
00:45:08.14\00:45:09.84
this particular point or not,
00:45:09.87\00:45:12.34
but it just, it's just
been occurring to me recently.
00:45:12.37\00:45:15.31
Here Paul is reasoning
forward in a line of thought
00:45:15.34\00:45:22.25
for the existence of
God in a sense and he says,
00:45:22.28\00:45:25.55
because verse 19,
00:45:25.59\00:45:26.92
"Because what may be known
of God is manifest in them,
00:45:26.96\00:45:33.50
for God has shown it to them."
00:45:33.53\00:45:36.16
It's manifest in them so.
00:45:36.20\00:45:38.43
So what is this?
00:45:38.47\00:45:39.80
Yeah, what is this
location that he's pointing to?
00:45:39.83\00:45:42.07
There's, kind of,
00:45:42.10\00:45:44.07
I guess, what we might
call a local intuitive awareness
00:45:44.11\00:45:47.94
in the human being himself,
in the human being herself.
00:45:47.98\00:45:51.18
There's
something going on in us.
00:45:51.21\00:45:53.38
Well, what's going on in us?
00:45:53.42\00:45:54.88
Well, one of the things
that is going on inside of us
00:45:54.92\00:45:57.95
is consciousness.
00:45:57.99\00:45:59.42
The capacity
for self reflection.
00:45:59.45\00:46:01.72
That's right.
00:46:01.76\00:46:03.09
This ability to
look out of ourselves
00:46:03.12\00:46:05.29
and to wonder about the
physical reality around us
00:46:05.33\00:46:08.60
and beyond the physical reality,
00:46:08.63\00:46:10.67
to have these
aspirations for something
00:46:10.70\00:46:13.57
that transcends the physical.
00:46:13.60\00:46:15.27
Why in the world do we aspire
00:46:15.30\00:46:17.47
to something
beyond merely getting food
00:46:17.51\00:46:19.71
to eat and reproducing?
00:46:19.74\00:46:22.14
We're longing for something.
00:46:22.18\00:46:23.55
So that's one of the things
that's in us that testifies
00:46:23.58\00:46:26.75
to the existence of God.
00:46:26.78\00:46:28.62
Secondly, there's
something else going on in us
00:46:28.65\00:46:32.15
that Paul is referring to,
and that's just moral activity.
00:46:32.19\00:46:35.12
That's right.
00:46:35.16\00:46:36.49
There's a moral conscience.
00:46:36.52\00:46:37.86
We know the difference
between right and wrong.
00:46:37.89\00:46:40.13
We not only know the difference,
00:46:40.16\00:46:42.46
but check this out.
00:46:42.50\00:46:43.87
If you do something wrong,
00:46:43.90\00:46:45.97
you feel bad about it.
00:46:46.00\00:46:47.34
We call that guilt or shame,
00:46:47.37\00:46:48.70
you don't like the
fact that you did it.
00:46:48.74\00:46:50.07
Now you can harden yourself
00:46:50.11\00:46:51.57
by doing the same dastardly deed
00:46:51.61\00:46:53.41
over and over and over again
00:46:53.44\00:46:54.84
until you finally justify
it and you evade your guilt.
00:46:54.88\00:46:57.98
But the fact is,
00:46:58.01\00:46:59.71
that at some
stage in the process,
00:46:59.75\00:47:02.08
you do something wrong,
00:47:02.12\00:47:03.75
you violate somebody
00:47:03.79\00:47:05.15
and you don't
like yourself for it.
00:47:05.19\00:47:07.36
Conversely, when
you do something right,
00:47:07.39\00:47:10.16
if you do a kind deed,
if you relieve suffering,
00:47:10.19\00:47:14.56
you feel good about
that for some reason.
00:47:14.60\00:47:16.70
So there's all this
moral activity and Paul says,
00:47:16.73\00:47:19.63
what may be known of God
00:47:19.67\00:47:21.97
is manifest in the
activities of the human mind,
00:47:22.00\00:47:28.01
and heart and
conscience and then this,
00:47:28.04\00:47:30.31
for God has shown it to them,
00:47:30.35\00:47:33.92
which says that God is
active in self revelation.
00:47:33.95\00:47:38.25
He wants us to know Him.
00:47:38.29\00:47:40.76
And therefore there's
this constant communication
00:47:40.79\00:47:43.66
that's going on.
00:47:43.69\00:47:45.03
So I think that
scripture actually backs up
00:47:45.06\00:47:48.76
the rational
argument that you're giving.
00:47:48.80\00:47:50.87
On that moral
point that you're making,
00:47:50.90\00:47:52.93
we may not always
agree between right or wrong.
00:47:52.97\00:47:57.67
Different cultures
may have different views
00:47:57.71\00:47:59.17
on different things
and different individuals.
00:47:59.21\00:48:00.98
But the point is that
00:48:01.01\00:48:03.24
we're all aware that
there is such a thing
00:48:03.28\00:48:05.88
as right or wrong.
00:48:05.91\00:48:07.25
Yeah.
00:48:07.28\00:48:08.62
Whether or not we may
agree or disagree on details.
00:48:08.65\00:48:10.62
But let me speak to that,
here there is a point on that
00:48:10.65\00:48:12.45
and that is that for
all of this talk about
00:48:12.49\00:48:15.42
moral plurality and relativism,
00:48:15.46\00:48:18.06
there are themes
00:48:18.09\00:48:20.16
that run through
all moral cultures,
00:48:20.20\00:48:23.06
and all people
who have not seared
00:48:23.10\00:48:25.37
to their conscience to the point
00:48:25.40\00:48:26.74
of not
appreciating those differences.
00:48:26.77\00:48:28.40
For example,
00:48:28.44\00:48:29.77
there is no culture,
anywhere, island culture,
00:48:29.80\00:48:33.27
any culture anywhere that says
00:48:33.31\00:48:35.58
that cowardice
is a positive thing.
00:48:35.61\00:48:40.32
There's no moral
culture that says
00:48:40.35\00:48:42.08
that it's honorable to
treat with cruelty those
00:48:42.12\00:48:45.52
that have treated
you with kindness.
00:48:45.55\00:48:47.62
And there are many
of these moral things.
00:48:47.66\00:48:50.06
So there might be
variations on a theme.
00:48:50.09\00:48:51.59
Here's a good example, polygamy.
00:48:51.63\00:48:53.43
Some cultures
say numerous wives,
00:48:53.46\00:48:56.16
other cultures say one wife,
00:48:56.20\00:48:57.87
right or one spouse
00:48:57.90\00:48:59.53
but the principle
of fidelity is the same
00:48:59.57\00:49:02.57
in both of those cultures.
00:49:02.60\00:49:03.94
Say, hey, you'll be true
to your three wives, right?
00:49:03.97\00:49:05.74
You'll be true.
Yeah, I'll be true.
00:49:05.77\00:49:07.11
You'll be true
to your wife, right?
00:49:07.14\00:49:08.48
So, so that's a
variation on a theme.
00:49:08.51\00:49:10.35
But the principle of fidelity
runs through that culture.
00:49:10.38\00:49:13.58
Yeah.
00:49:13.62\00:49:14.95
And I don't think
there's any culture in the world
00:49:14.98\00:49:17.05
that is satisfied
with you taking my stuff.
00:49:17.09\00:49:23.63
There are cultures in
which I'm fine with me
00:49:23.66\00:49:26.23
taking your stuff.
00:49:26.26\00:49:27.90
But nobody is happy
with you taking my stuff.
00:49:27.93\00:49:30.23
When the shoe is
on the other foot.
00:49:30.27\00:49:32.23
And so there's definitely
moral activity going on.
00:49:32.27\00:49:35.04
So the point here is
that how do you account
00:49:35.07\00:49:37.67
for this
ubiquitous that means ever,
00:49:37.71\00:49:41.34
you know, ever present
00:49:41.38\00:49:43.18
moral fact, fiber and fabric
00:49:43.21\00:49:45.48
in which we are all living
and existing in the absence
00:49:45.51\00:49:47.88
of some
transcendent moral reality?
00:49:47.92\00:49:50.59
So like getting
back to your thing,
00:49:50.62\00:49:51.95
like if it's just molecules
in motion, mechanically,
00:49:51.99\00:49:55.22
how do we end up
with this moral matrix,
00:49:55.26\00:49:57.89
there's a lot of M's there.
00:49:57.93\00:49:59.26
How do we end up
with this moral matrix
00:49:59.29\00:50:00.63
in which we're living?
00:50:00.66\00:50:02.00
Right.
00:50:02.03\00:50:03.37
James, you got
a scripture there.
00:50:03.40\00:50:04.73
I got a scripture
that this will move us
00:50:04.77\00:50:06.60
to another point that I think
is really powerful personally,
00:50:06.63\00:50:09.20
and it's one that
keeps me on track with God.
00:50:09.24\00:50:12.81
It's one that I think a
lot of people have taken in
00:50:12.84\00:50:16.24
and it is led them
to God and the verses
00:50:16.28\00:50:19.35
I'm looking at
here are Psalm 19.
00:50:19.38\00:50:21.22
I know you're going to
know in Psalm 19:1 and onward.
00:50:21.25\00:50:23.25
Beautiful.
00:50:23.28\00:50:24.62
The heavens
declare the glory of God.
00:50:24.65\00:50:26.62
And the firmament
shows his handiwork.
00:50:26.65\00:50:28.46
Day unto day utters speech,
00:50:28.49\00:50:30.49
and night after
night reveals knowledge.
00:50:30.53\00:50:32.43
There is no speech or language,
their voice is not heard.
00:50:32.46\00:50:34.90
That's right.
00:50:34.93\00:50:36.26
The heavens and creation itself
00:50:36.30\00:50:38.07
does not have a
specific language,
00:50:38.10\00:50:40.54
ABCD, you know, alphabet
00:50:40.57\00:50:42.00
where they're
communicating specific words.
00:50:42.04\00:50:44.24
But as people look at
nature, they look at the stars
00:50:44.27\00:50:46.78
and say look at
the creation itself.
00:50:46.81\00:50:49.31
It speaks to
them of the Creator.
00:50:49.34\00:50:52.45
Over and over again,
00:50:52.48\00:50:53.82
people are led to the conclusion
00:50:53.85\00:50:55.55
that there is a God
because there's no way
00:50:55.58\00:50:58.02
and especially in science,
even more so today in science,
00:50:58.05\00:51:01.89
the one we, I think,
00:51:01.92\00:51:04.63
pursue and grow in our ability
to understand in scientifically
00:51:04.66\00:51:09.00
how this world is created,
00:51:09.03\00:51:10.37
the more scientists are
coming to the conclusion
00:51:10.40\00:51:12.33
that there must be a
God, there must be a Creator.
00:51:12.37\00:51:13.90
Well, that certainly
is the case in physics.
00:51:13.94\00:51:15.84
Yeah.
00:51:15.87\00:51:17.21
The majority of
professional physicists
00:51:17.24\00:51:19.91
would be believers in something
00:51:19.94\00:51:22.48
in some
transcendent intelligence.
00:51:22.51\00:51:24.05
Let me just say this,
David, in some places,
00:51:24.08\00:51:26.61
scientists are becoming,
00:51:26.65\00:51:29.18
are outnumbering theologians
00:51:29.22\00:51:31.62
in their understanding
of God and His existence.
00:51:31.65\00:51:34.89
There are theologians
00:51:34.92\00:51:36.42
who intellectually
theologize about this religion,
00:51:36.46\00:51:39.83
but don't believe in
God and there are scientists
00:51:39.86\00:51:41.93
who believe in a Creator...
00:51:41.96\00:51:43.60
I want to say something.
00:51:43.63\00:51:44.97
You're gonna say something,
00:51:45.00\00:51:46.33
I'm gonna come back
to that but go ahead.
00:51:46.37\00:51:47.70
You won't forget?
00:51:47.74\00:51:49.07
I won't forget
because it's a quotation
00:51:49.10\00:51:50.44
I wanna read on that very point.
00:51:50.47\00:51:51.81
What I was going to
add by saying that Psalm 19
00:51:51.84\00:51:55.48
and the argument you're
giving for the existence of God
00:51:55.51\00:51:57.78
is the argument from design,
the teleological argument,
00:51:57.81\00:52:02.12
and part of that design
00:52:02.15\00:52:03.55
not only do you
look up into the heavens
00:52:03.59\00:52:05.25
and the heavens
declare the glory of God,
00:52:05.29\00:52:08.32
but again, looking
inside of the design
00:52:08.36\00:52:11.96
of the human being, we have DNA.
00:52:11.99\00:52:14.30
And DNA is information.
00:52:14.33\00:52:16.97
It's intelligent information
00:52:17.00\00:52:19.03
and that intelligent
information is so complex
00:52:19.07\00:52:21.60
that it is
rightfully called language.
00:52:21.64\00:52:24.37
There are four
chemical components
00:52:24.41\00:52:27.44
that communicate so carefully,
00:52:27.48\00:52:30.21
everything from eye color
00:52:30.25\00:52:32.01
to traits of
personality in a person.
00:52:32.05\00:52:34.88
And, for example,
00:52:34.92\00:52:37.09
I just found this
quote very interesting.
00:52:37.12\00:52:39.32
Bill Gates said that DNA
is like a software program
00:52:39.35\00:52:44.46
only much more complex than
anything we've ever devised.
00:52:44.49\00:52:48.86
There's more complex
00:52:48.90\00:52:51.27
and coherent
information in a teaspoon of DNA
00:52:51.30\00:52:56.50
than present in all the books
ever written in human history,
00:52:56.54\00:53:01.64
in a teaspoon of DNA.
00:53:01.68\00:53:03.91
That's dense.
00:53:03.95\00:53:05.28
There's a lot of info.
00:53:05.31\00:53:06.65
There's that,
Ty, on that there's,
00:53:06.68\00:53:08.02
I know you're gonna jump but...
00:53:08.05\00:53:09.38
No, do your thing.
00:53:09.42\00:53:10.75
Around the DNA thing,
00:53:10.79\00:53:12.12
there's this
philosophical atheist
00:53:12.15\00:53:13.89
who was basically the
face of atheism, Anthony Flew.
00:53:13.92\00:53:17.76
Yeah.
00:53:17.79\00:53:19.13
Who recently...
00:53:19.16\00:53:21.33
It's been probably
seven years ago now,
00:53:21.36\00:53:23.06
ten years ago now.
00:53:23.10\00:53:24.47
Essentially went
from being an atheist
00:53:24.50\00:53:27.14
not to being an evangelical
Bible believing Christian,
00:53:27.17\00:53:29.57
per se, but at
least a huge transition
00:53:29.60\00:53:32.91
from an atheist
to there's a Creator.
00:53:32.94\00:53:36.78
And the argument
that really tipped it
00:53:36.81\00:53:39.85
over for him was DNA.
00:53:39.88\00:53:41.75
We're for talking
about, he's saying, you know,
00:53:41.78\00:53:43.45
we're looking at
what we're looking at,
00:53:43.49\00:53:45.65
and there's
screaming intelligence.
00:53:45.69\00:53:47.46
And Anthony Flew is
someone to be reckoned with.
00:53:47.49\00:53:50.03
I mean, he's
deceased now rather recently.
00:53:50.06\00:53:52.59
But the fact is,
00:53:52.63\00:53:55.06
just look at the
title of his book.
00:53:55.10\00:53:57.37
There is no God
and no is crossed out,
00:53:57.40\00:54:00.67
there is a God
because this title of the book
00:54:00.70\00:54:04.07
where he basically said
00:54:04.11\00:54:05.44
I do believe in the
existence of God now,
00:54:05.47\00:54:07.31
is reflecting both his previous
00:54:07.34\00:54:09.61
philosophical approach
to life there is no God.
00:54:09.64\00:54:11.78
He was one of the
most prominent atheists.
00:54:11.81\00:54:14.88
Academic atheist.
00:54:14.92\00:54:16.38
Yeah and he in the
introduction to this book,
00:54:16.42\00:54:19.12
he basically says,
I've changed my mind,
00:54:19.15\00:54:21.36
God does exist.
00:54:21.39\00:54:22.72
And he said, the
reason I changed my mind
00:54:22.76\00:54:24.86
is because I followed
the evidence where it leads,
00:54:24.89\00:54:29.00
and it led me to
believe in the existence of God.
00:54:29.03\00:54:32.27
Amazing. I'll
read a quotation here.
00:54:32.30\00:54:34.24
This is not the one that I
was originally going to read,
00:54:34.27\00:54:35.80
but I just have
this in front of me.
00:54:35.84\00:54:37.17
This is from Dr. Flew.
00:54:37.21\00:54:39.27
He says, what I think
00:54:39.31\00:54:40.64
the DNA material
has done is shown
00:54:40.68\00:54:43.08
that intelligence
must have been involved
00:54:43.11\00:54:45.08
in getting these extraordinarily
00:54:45.11\00:54:46.45
diverse elements together.
00:54:46.48\00:54:48.55
In other words,
Ty's exactly right.
00:54:48.58\00:54:50.39
When we're dealing with DNA,
00:54:50.42\00:54:51.75
we're not just dealing
with a molecular compound,
00:54:51.79\00:54:54.16
we're dealing with data.
00:54:54.19\00:54:55.89
Information mentioned,
00:54:55.92\00:54:57.26
and the only known source
of information is intelligence.
00:54:57.29\00:55:01.30
So if we, what Flew is saying
00:55:01.33\00:55:03.26
and what many scientists today
are saying and non scientists,
00:55:03.30\00:55:06.23
we can't trust the
importance of this quest
00:55:06.27\00:55:10.54
only to the professionals,
it's too important.
00:55:10.57\00:55:12.44
Lay people have to be thinking
about these things as well.
00:55:12.47\00:55:14.54
We have to be thinking about.
00:55:14.58\00:55:16.04
We're not
scientists, we have to say,
00:55:16.08\00:55:17.41
hey, wait a minute.
00:55:17.45\00:55:19.11
There's information
here, there's data here.
00:55:19.15\00:55:21.88
Where does
information come from?
00:55:21.92\00:55:23.35
Information comes
from intelligence.
00:55:23.39\00:55:24.79
This is the
quotation I wanted to read.
00:55:24.82\00:55:26.15
This is from Dr. Owen Gingrich,
00:55:26.19\00:55:28.06
who was the head of like,
00:55:28.09\00:55:29.42
the history of
science at Harvard University.
00:55:29.46\00:55:31.33
He was the professor of...
00:55:31.36\00:55:34.33
He was the head
of the Smithsonian
00:55:34.36\00:55:35.73
Astrophysical Observatory.
00:55:35.76\00:55:37.27
I mean, the guy's like
in top tier scientists,
00:55:37.30\00:55:40.44
and listen to what he says,
he wrote a great little book
00:55:40.47\00:55:41.97
called God's Universe.
00:55:42.00\00:55:43.84
And he said, "To me,
belief in a final cause,
00:55:43.87\00:55:46.17
a Creator God gives a
coherent understanding
00:55:46.21\00:55:49.41
of why the universe
seems so congenial designed
00:55:49.44\00:55:53.15
for the existence of, listen,
00:55:53.18\00:55:55.28
intelligent
self-reflective life."
00:55:55.32\00:55:58.65
So now this is a
guy who's saying,
00:55:58.69\00:56:00.09
as you were
saying, as a scientist
00:56:00.12\00:56:01.86
who's looking at the universe
and saying wait a minute,
00:56:01.89\00:56:04.03
he's not a
theologian looking at scripture,
00:56:04.06\00:56:06.26
a scientist
looking at the universe
00:56:06.29\00:56:07.93
and saying the heavens
declare the glory of God.
00:56:07.96\00:56:11.20
Yeah, absolutely astounding.
00:56:11.23\00:56:13.00
I think that we could
amass quite an arsenal
00:56:13.03\00:56:18.67
of good arguments
for the existence of God.
00:56:18.71\00:56:23.11
There's the argument from design
00:56:23.14\00:56:24.88
that has been mentioned,
00:56:24.91\00:56:26.25
there's the argument
from mind, from purpose,
00:56:26.28\00:56:29.52
just good and
evil and the fact that
00:56:29.55\00:56:31.49
we all know that
there's good and evil.
00:56:31.52\00:56:33.59
Which by the way,
is also part of Psalm,
00:56:33.62\00:56:35.19
the law of the Lord is
perfect converting the souls.
00:56:35.22\00:56:37.53
That same Psalm.
00:56:37.56\00:56:38.93
Yeah. I love that.
00:56:38.96\00:56:40.40
But we have to confess also,
00:56:40.43\00:56:42.23
that the bottom line really
is that the experiential part
00:56:42.26\00:56:48.74
plays prominently into
any individual persons,
00:56:48.77\00:56:52.94
realization that God
exists because the fact is,
00:56:52.97\00:56:56.21
even if we were
to amass all the data
00:56:56.24\00:56:58.98
and all the arguments
for the existence of God.
00:56:59.01\00:57:02.12
The fact is,
00:57:02.15\00:57:03.49
you can't prove
the existence of God
00:57:03.52\00:57:06.12
to the satisfaction of
everybody in the world,
00:57:06.15\00:57:10.26
you can prove
00:57:10.29\00:57:12.73
the existence of God to
your own satisfaction...
00:57:12.76\00:57:15.06
That's exactly correct.
00:57:15.10\00:57:16.43
Experientially and
I can tell you from
00:57:16.46\00:57:18.13
and I think the
same is true of you guys.
00:57:18.17\00:57:20.90
I not only
believe that God exists,
00:57:20.94\00:57:24.27
personally, I
know that God exists,
00:57:24.31\00:57:28.34
not simply because
of data and information
00:57:28.38\00:57:31.71
but because I've
had an encounter.
00:57:31.75\00:57:34.58
I know it as much
as I know I exist.
00:57:34.62\00:57:37.15
That's pretty.
00:57:37.19\00:57:38.52
I'm much
convinced that God exists
00:57:38.55\00:57:39.89
as I am that I exist.
00:57:39.92\00:57:41.52
Beautiful, love it. Yeah.
00:57:41.56\00:57:43.19
I love the distinction
there that we cannot prove
00:57:43.22\00:57:45.99
the existence of
God to someone else's
00:57:46.03\00:57:47.50
absolute satisfaction if
they insist on skepticism,
00:57:47.53\00:57:49.96
but that doesn't mean
that we can't personally taste
00:57:50.00\00:57:53.80
and see that's an
invitation to an experience.
00:57:53.84\00:57:57.84
Taste and see
that the Lord is good.
00:57:57.87\00:58:00.11
Yeah, so we're believers,
00:58:00.14\00:58:02.84
because there's
rational basis for faith
00:58:02.88\00:58:06.98
and we're believers
00:58:07.02\00:58:08.35
because we have experientially
00:58:08.38\00:58:11.32
individually come to
know God as a personal being,
00:58:11.35\00:58:15.46
and that's a good
place to stop right there...
00:58:15.49\00:58:17.83
Beautiful.
00:58:17.86\00:58:19.19
And we will pursue
our conversations further.
00:58:19.23\00:58:20.56