Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000016
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00:06 [Music]
00:16 [Music] 00:21 --Alright, everyone, we are continuing our conversation 00:23 about righteousness by faith. 00:27 --Faith, faith, faith. 00:29 --This is our third conversation now in 13, that seems like a 00:31 lot. 00:33 Thirteen feels like a lot, but when you actually get into the 00:35 material, it doesn't feel like a lot because it's...of course. 00:37 --Actually, it's not gonna be enough. 00:39 --Let's just sort of catch us up where we're at, we spent time in 00:42 our first session sort of the big overview, big themes, big 00:44 concepts, big ideas. 00:46 And then, in our second session, we got down into what you might 00:49 call the textual nitty gritty, and we were in Genesis 1, 2, 00:53 somewhat, but we spent a lot of time in 3, we spent a lot of 00:55 time with Cain and Abel, little bit of time on the flood, and 00:57 then we got to the tower of Babel. 01:00 We sort of walk through the tower of Babel as a precursor to 01:03 all manmade religion built around self-preservation, 01:06 self-exaltation, and then we started talking about this 01:09 revolutionary pivotal, bell weather figure, not just in the 01:14 history of scripture, but in the history of the human experience, 01:17 and that's Abram, and I don't think it would be a bad thing if 01:20 we almost just kind of started from scratch with Abram and just 01:24 sort of reminded ourselves of stuff that we've already covered 01:26 and then just build on that, because the experience of Abram, 01:30 as we all know, and becoming Abraham, is pivotal for the rest 01:33 of the Old Testament, and even the rest of the New Testament. 01:37 So, if we get this story right, and if we get his experience 01:40 right, we're gonna get a lot of scripture right, maybe all of 01:43 it, but if we get this wrong, we're gonna be stumbling and 01:46 fumbling in the dark. 01:47 --Yeah, exactly. 01:48 --So, let's talk about Abraham, and especially as he is the 01:51 answer to what's taking place in Genesis chapters 3-11, and we've 01:55 just left the Tower of Babel, what's going on, what's the 01:57 scene? 01:58 --Well, we pretty much left off by moving through the first 02:01 three verses of chapter 12 of Genesis. 02:04 --Okay. 02:05 --And we were delighted to discover that God is calling 02:09 Abraham not only out of a geographical location, but out 02:12 of a way of thinking. 02:14 When the words are spoken from the Lord to Abraham in chapter 02:19 12, verse 1, get out. 02:21 Those are the key words that we were really focusing on in the 02:24 latter part of our second session and in this 13 part 02:27 series. 02:28 But get out of what? 02:30 Get out of one theological paradigm into another, which is 02:34 simply to say, Abraham, I'm going to lead you through an 02:39 emancipation process. 02:42 I'm gonna lead you through an odyssey, a journey in which 02:45 you're going to have your natural ways of thinking about 02:51 me upended. 02:53 --And not just me, but reality. 02:54 --Yeah. 02:56 --Different ways of thinking about the world around you. 02:57 --That's right. 02:58 So, first of all, as God tells him, and we mentioned this 03:01 before, you asked for a recap, first of all, God says, Abraham, 03:05 I'm calling you out, but I'm not calling you out to become a 03:10 seperadous, I'm calling you out so that all the nations of the 03:14 earth would be blessed through what I'm going to do through 03:17 you. 03:18 --Calling you out to send you back in. 03:19 --Yeah, and this was something we didn't mention in the last 03:22 session, and that is when God tells Abraham in chapter 12 of 03:25 Genesis, verse 3, in you all the families of the earth shall be 03:29 blessed, this is a Messianic prophecy, this is an early stage 03:35 prophecy here, Moses is writing the story and got Abraham 03:41 doesn't, Abraham's not thinking like we're thinking, oh, 03:44 Messiah. 03:45 Abraham's thinking, oh, you're going to do something through my 03:49 lineage, so, here's what's important. 03:51 It becomes absolutely vital in Abraham's thinking, and rightly 03:54 so that, okay, God, if you're gonna do something through my 03:57 lineage, through my posterity that will bless the whole world 04:01 and every nation in the world, well having children is really 04:03 important, and at the present moment, I don't have children. 04:07 I don't have a son. 04:12 --Exactly. 04:13 --So, you're gonna have to, something has to happen here, 04:15 you need to, so, I don't know if you wanna do anything in 13 or 04:17 14, but I'm gonna skip to 15 and point out this, Abraham says to 04:21 God, at this juncture of his encounter with the Lord, he 04:26 says, okay, I'm childless, that's chapter 15, and verse 2, 04:34 I have no offspring, that's verse 3, and God says, there's 04:40 gonna be one that comes out of your own body, Abraham, this is 04:44 interesting. 04:45 And Abraham says, how shall I know? 04:49 Verse 8. 04:50 How can I know that you're going to fulfill your promise through 04:54 my body, through my lineage? 04:57 Because I'm old. 05:00 And I don't have a son, but how can I know for sure? 05:03 And then God does something remarkable, we actually talked 05:05 about this a little bit in the first 13 part series of Table 05:09 Talk. 05:10 But in this present context, it's well for us to recover this 05:16 idea. 05:17 God does something interesting when Abraham says, how can I 05:21 know? 05:22 God says, okay, here's how you can know. 05:25 Get 3 animals and cut them in half, lay them across from one 05:31 another, and then Abraham obeys, he gets the animals, he cuts the 05:36 three animals in half, forming a pathway between them. 05:38 Abraham knows what the Lord is doing here because, in that 05:44 cultural context, they didn't go to the local attorney and sign a 05:48 document, they made a covenant through a ritual. 05:54 And this ritual is one in which God then, as Abraham lays the 05:59 pieces aside, across from one another. 06:02 Abraham knows that what needs to happen is, those who pass 06:06 between the pieces are entering into an agreement with one 06:09 another, and God takes the initiative to pass through the 06:12 pieces. 06:13 And he's communicating that, by so doing, that Abraham, you can 06:17 know that my promise is good because I'm pledging my very 06:20 life. 06:21 Because in that context, you're basically saying, may it be done 06:26 to me as is done to these animals, severed, cut in two, 06:32 may it be done to me as done to these animal sacrifices if I 06:36 don't make good on my promise. 06:37 So, God's pledging himself to follow through in faithful love 06:43 to keep his promise. 06:44 --This is good, yeah. 06:46 --Let me just ask you a question there, anyone can answer it, Ty 06:49 has just done a great job of articulating this, he says, to 06:51 keep your promise, and just for our sake, and for those that are 06:56 listening in, what is that promise? 06:58 In the simplest possible language, or what, you see what 07:02 I'm saying? 07:03 --Yeah. 07:04 --God says, I'm gonna keep my promise, okay, what promise? 07:05 --That in you, all the nations of the earth would be blessed. 07:09 --Okay, is there more than one element to the promise? 07:12 So, I've got that, nations blessed, anything else? 07:14 --Well, included in that promise is through the messiah that's 07:20 coming. 07:21 --Yeah, the messianic line. 07:22 --Okay, so that's an anticipation of the Messiah, 07:23 okay. 07:24 --That's the point. 07:25 --I think you're onto it. 07:26 --In thee, it's actually talking about Christ. 07:29 It's not through the many seeds, but through the one. 07:32 In Galatians, Paul brings this out and I think it's very 07:33 powerful. 07:35 In Galatians 3, he's talking about this whole experience with 07:37 Abraham, how he believed God, was counting on him for 07:39 righteousness, as we're talking about. 07:41 And he says, those therefore, who are faith, are the same, the 07:45 children of Abraham, but then he says here in Galatians chapter 07:47 3, he says, in verse 16, now that Abraham and his seed were 07:51 the promises made. 07:54 Now, he said not to seeds, as of many, but as of one, to thy 07:59 seed, which is Christ. 08:00 --Got it. 08:02 --So, it's in Christ, which is so beautiful to me. 08:04 --Amen, and we're gonna get to Galatians 3 in great detail. 08:08 Here's where I was driving at and you guys nailed it. 08:11 Basically, God shows up in Genesis 12 and essentially says, 08:14 this is how I read the text, get out of the land to a land that I 08:20 will show you, depart from your father's house, I will make you 08:22 a great nation and I will bless you and make your name great and 08:26 you will be a blessing, I will bless those who curse you and I 08:28 will curse them who curses you and you all the families of the 08:31 earth shall be blessed, so, basically he says, you'll be a 08:33 blessing, you'll get the land, and you'll get lots of people to 08:36 fill the land. 08:37 Now, the Messiah is implicit in there, now, of course, the word 08:39 Messiah doesn't occur here. 08:41 So, the way that I see this is when God shows up and starts 08:44 making a bunch of promises, because that's what this amounts 08:47 to. 08:48 He doesn't show up and say, Abraham and you're gonna do, and 08:50 you'll do this, and then you'll do that, and then you'll do 08:52 that. 08:53 --I, I, I. 08:54 --He says, I'm gonna do this, and then after I've done that, 08:55 I'll do this and then I'll do this, and then I'll do this and 08:58 then I'll do this. 08:59 And here's the question I like to ask, what is the appropriate 09:01 response when God makes you a series of promises. 09:05 --To believe. 09:07 --To believe it. 09:08 So, that's why Abraham becomes normative for the rest of 09:12 scripture, which is where you're at in Galatians 3, because 09:14 Abraham here, okay, and then, and then you'll, and you'll, and 09:18 then you'll. 09:20 --You're referring to chapter 15, verse 6. 09:23 --This is the text that Paul quotes more than any other text 09:25 in Genesis. 09:27 He can't stay away from it, right? 09:29 Genesis 15:6, he believed the Lord, and he accounted it to him 09:33 for right. 09:34 He believed that God would do what he said he would do. 09:36 And then, it's in that context, Ty, that you said, well, how 09:38 will I know? 09:40 On what basis, I believe you, but how will I be certain that 09:43 you will do this? 09:45 He says, okay, go get, 5 animals, cut three of them in 09:47 half, and he's committing himself, he's pledging himself 09:51 to the process. 09:52 He is saying, I'm in this. 09:54 I'm obligating myself and you'll see. 09:57 So, I love the idea that the very, he wasn't just making some 10:01 general, vague, ambiguous promise of I'll take care of you 10:04 and all will be well, we'll ride off into the sunset together. 10:06 No, he's like, you'll get the land, and you'll get people to 10:08 fill it, and you will be a blessing. 10:11 Which is the very thing that God had said to Adam. 10:13 --I was just gonna say, there's a pattern there, because there's 10:16 a sacrifice here again, we began in Genesis 3, with the 10:18 sacrifice, Genesis 4, the issue is 2 sacrifices given to God, 10:24 and now we're back to Abraham. 10:25 --And we skipped over Noah, but as soon as Noah gets off the... 10:27 --Same thing. 10:28 --As soon as Noah's sacrifice. 10:29 I love the idea, a sacrifice and a promise. 10:33 I love the idea that God basically says to Adam and Eve, 10:35 expand the garden and be fruitful and multiply. 10:38 Then he says to Noah, the first thing he says to Noah when he 10:41 gets off the ark is what? 10:42 Be fruitful and multiply. 10:43 First thing he says. 10:45 Fill it, first thing he says is, here's the land, fill it. 10:49 So, God's desire, from the beginning has been, to have, 10:52 like scripture says, he created the earth to be inhabited. 10:56 --And this brings up this whole thing about culture, that God, 10:59 from the beginning, has, he's not operating in a vacuum 11:03 outside of human existence and human interaction. 11:07 He's actually creating culture on earth. 11:11 So, with this call to Abraham, God is basically introducing a 11:15 new culture on earth. 11:17 --He's literally founding a nation. 11:19 There's a kingdom in chapter 7 and 11 that we call attention to 11:23 Nimrod in the kingdom of Babylon, and God is setting up a 11:27 parallel kingdom. 11:29 He's calling out Abraham in order to form the nation of 11:32 Israel, in order to create a vehicle through which a Messiah 11:39 can ultimately come. 11:41 That's what's happening in the storyline as it unfolds, but 11:44 even though Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him 11:48 for righteousness, in chapter 15 verse 6, Abraham immediately 11:51 goes about trying to resolve the problem of his impotence, of his 12:00 very old body and the old body of his wife, Sarah, he 12:04 immediately goes about trying to resolve the problem on his own. 12:08 --So he's thoroughly human. 12:09 --Not immediately, I mean in the context of the bible, it's 12:12 immediate, but it's actually 10 years later. 12:14 So, it does take him some time, but you're right. 12:16 It's even worse, though, the point you're making is even 12:20 better because it's even worse, though. 12:22 Because he, 10 years later, you'd think after 10 years, he'd 12:25 be building trust and faith in God. 12:28 --Except for the one thing that would communicate that God was 12:31 gonna keep his promise, namely offspring, has not yet happened. 12:34 --And so, here's a huge factor in our humanity and that is, 12:38 this whole idea of our initial belief in God, and then this 12:43 trial of our faith. 12:44 Because, really, verse 6 is the first place that you have the 12:47 literal mention of righteousness by faith in the bible. 12:50 I mean, if you wanna take it literally, he believed God was 12:52 counting to him for righteousness. 12:53 And he believes in that way. 12:55 But now, after 10 years, you know, what does it take, 9 12:58 months, doesn't it take 9 months? 12:59 Ten years later, he's now attempted to slip back into 13:02 righteousness by works and depending upon himself. 13:05 --And we were talking about how we're so prone to revert back to 13:10 our own picture to projecting our own image on God. 13:14 So, now Abraham's doing it, we talked about how, you know, 13:17 following that long darkness, well what happened in that long 13:20 darkness? 13:21 We reverted back. 13:23 Here it is again with Abraham. 13:24 --And another thing that's really interesting here, and I 13:25 don't mean to bring us up in a negative sense, but again, the 13:28 woman plays a part in this. 13:30 There's this couple and there's this need, and so Sarah comes in 13:36 and she's the one that actually initiates, hey, we need to, and 13:41 of course, Abraham, Adam and Eve, the same story kind of 13:44 repeated, and so, you move into this whole way of thinking, 13:48 which I believe is, you end up realizing is so significant when 13:53 we get to Galatians chapter 4 because it becomes, these 13:55 become, you know, illustrations of the two metaphors, the two 14:01 ways that we're talking about. 14:02 --I know that we're just right tipping on the verge of Genesis 14:05 16, which is Hagar and Ishmael, but can I ask a couple questions 14:08 about Genesis 15? 14:10 Just I think these are super important points, and I wanna, 14:13 rather than just state them, I wanna see what you guys think 14:15 about them. 14:16 --I think you should. 14:17 --Well, first of all, you've got the verse... 14:19 --You guys think he should ask the questions? 14:21 --I'm gonna do it anyway. 14:23 Verse 10, it says, then he cut them in 2, then he brought all 14:27 of these to him and he cut them in 2, I'm in 15:10, down the 14:29 middle, placed each opposite the other, but he did not cut the 14:31 birds in 2, and when the vultures came on the carcasses, 14:34 Abraham drove them away, now look at verse 12. 14:36 Now, when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on 14:39 Abraham, and this is very interesting, and behold, horror 14:42 and great darkness fell upon him. 14:44 We can't just pass over that. 14:46 To me, that is absolutely central to what's goin on here. 14:49 Abraham goes to sleep, and he has a terrible nightmare. 14:54 What is this? 14:56 --I think it typifies the horror of the great darkness that we 15:01 see taking place in Jesus at the cross when he is enveloped with 15:09 human guilt and shame and sin, but the thing that's such good 15:13 news is that in the middle of all the horror of great 15:17 darkness, he sees a smoking oven or a flame, a torch of fire pass 15:22 between those pieces. 15:25 --Verse 17. 15:26 --Yeah, so God is interrupting the horror and the darkness by 15:32 saying, I'm going to follow through, I'm going to keep 15:36 covenant. 15:37 --You know, I've never picked up on this before until you just 15:40 said this, something about a dream or a nightmare, and I'm 15:42 thinking in my mind, because it says, like you said, in the 15:45 context, it says, that he fell into a deep sleep and I don't 15:49 think it was just like a dream or a nightmare that he had, I 15:52 think that God actually gave him a revelation. 15:54 --Absolutely. 15:55 --And the revelation is revealed in verse 13. 15:56 --That's what I was about to say, I think the answer's in 15:58 verse 13, that there's a dark, dark pages are coming. 16:01 --The dark pages are coming and God's revealing it to him and 16:03 he's going, whoa, wait a minute, I've got all these blessings and 16:05 promises and now you're telling me my seed is gonna be in 16:08 captivity? 16:10 --That's good. 16:12 Look at verse 15 and 16. 16:14 Now, as for you, you will go to your fathers in peace, you will 16:16 be buried at a good old age, but in the fourth generation, they 16:20 shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not 16:23 yet complete. 16:24 Isn't there just a beautiful little capsule, a germ of truth 16:27 in that? 16:30 I mean, what is this language, what does this mean that the 16:33 iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete. 16:35 --God is merciful, God is merciful. 16:39 He allows as much time as possible for every single person 16:44 to make a choice, make a choice, make a, he just holds out, he 16:47 holds out, he holds out. 16:48 I'm holding out. 16:50 As long as it's possible, I'm holding out. 16:51 There's no more holding out that can be done. 16:53 It's kinda like, you know, a patient that has some kind of 16:56 disease or whatever, maybe it's an infection and you have to 17:00 amputate, but you try everything that you can before the 17:03 amputation takes place because you wanna save that person's 17:07 body part or whatever it is, but ultimately, you wanna save the 17:09 person. 17:11 --In 2 Peter 3:9, we all know this text, that the Lord is 17:15 longsuffering toward us, not wanting that any should perish, 17:18 but that all should come to repentance. 17:21 So, in this whole outplaying of this history that through this 17:26 people, the Messiah would come into the world, but they would 17:30 struggle to figure out that truth, verse 15, affliction's 17:34 gonna come and so forth, and then God's mercy on the world. 17:37 --Yeah, I love this because, really, if you develop this, the 17:42 human race is like a body. 17:43 Paul talks about that in relation to the church, and of 17:46 course, the church was to infiltrate the entire world. 17:47 Some are ears, some are noses. 17:49 Nobody wants to lose a body part. 17:51 God doesn't wanna lose a body part, and so he works, he's the 17:55 physician, Luke says, he works to restore every part of the 17:58 body, and that's why I think Abraham he's still, like how you 18:02 said earlier, he's still wrestling with these concepts of 18:05 righteousness by works at the land of Err, etc. And so, he's 18:08 still, his people, generations down are gonna get comfortable 18:12 in Egypt, they're gonna lose the vision of righteousness by 18:15 faith. 18:16 They're gonna lose the vision of why they're there, to infiltrate 18:19 and to influence, and when they do that, they fall into 18:21 captivity again. 18:22 --I think this language, the iniquity of the Amorites is not 18:26 yet full or complete. 18:27 Basically, it's God saying, I have my finger on the pulse of 18:33 people groups and it's not, evil isn't mature enough for me to 18:42 intervene. 18:44 There are still people who I'm reaching out to and reaching 18:49 into. 18:50 And so, it's like you said, James, it's an act of mercy. 18:53 God isn't willy nilly, he's not arbitrary, he's not just 18:56 smacking people down, he's saying, wait a minute, there are 19:00 people who are still processing and evil hasn't reached a level 19:04 of maturity yet that I would intervene to stop the process 19:09 yet. 19:11 It's an act of mercy. 19:12 We have to take a break, but we're off to a good start, and 19:14 we'll come right back and look at Genesis chapter maybe 16, 17. 19:20 [Music] 19:30 Want a seat at the table? 19:32 Well, you're certainly invited. 19:34 Visit our website at lightbearers.org. 19:36 In fact, you may wanna make it your homepage because we're 19:40 always making something new to strengthen your relationship 19:43 with Jesus. 19:45 At lightbearers.org, you'll find thought-provoking blogs and 19:48 verse-by-verse bible studies on a variety of vital topics. 19:52 Our online resource center has an excellent lineup of books, 19:57 CDs, and DVDs that present God's word with clarity and power. 20:05 Our presenters include, Ty Gibson, James Rafferty, David 20:09 Asscherick, Jeffery Rosario, and more. 20:14 We also maintain an archive of audio and video messages you can 20:17 access free of charge. 20:20 Feel free to listen online, or download to your computer, 20:23 tablet, or smartphone. 20:25 Under events, you'll discover 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complete. 21:38 Now, we started driving in a question that I was, you guys 21:41 got it actually, the thing that I was thinking of, and that is 21:44 that God here, is not looking out for Abraham in some 21:47 clique-ish sense, that it's Abraham arbitrarily or 21:50 capriciously, God is wanting to bless all the nations of the 21:53 earth, and what this verse shows is that God has an interest in 21:57 the other peoples. 21:59 He is still longing for, maybe there's another Abraham, maybe 22:03 there's, maybe there could be, and so he says, hey we're gonna 22:05 hold off. 22:06 Now, this kind of reminds me of my own experience, I wonder if 22:08 you guys. 22:09 Well, all of us, I bet, to some degree, can relate to this, 22:11 because, I mean, you're a convert, and I mean, and I'm 22:13 talking from outside of sort of Christiandom into it. 22:15 Like, none of us here were raised in strong Christian 22:17 homes. 22:18 Right? 22:19 --I was. 22:20 --You were, okay, I didn't know that. 22:21 --Catholic. 22:22 --Okay, strong Catholic home. 22:23 When I became a believer, I was 23 years old. 22:26 I was what I say, a purple haired punk rocker, had the 22:27 tattoo thing going on, you guys know this story. 22:30 Not everyobdoy, of course, that's watching knows this 22:32 story. 22:34 So, my culture was very countercultural to Christianity. 22:37 You could be almost anything in my punk rock skateboarding 22:40 culture and that was cool, but to become a Christian was like a 22:42 form of intellectual treason. 22:45 --Sellout. 22:46 --It was like, oh, that's exactly the word we would've 22:47 used, sellout. 22:49 Intellectual sellout. 22:50 Totally. 22:51 Now, here's the interesting thing. 22:52 When God called me out, and I think he did. 22:55 He definitely called me out of some of the behavior and some of 22:57 the music and some of the social situations and things that I was 22:59 in, some of the relationships. 23:01 When he called me out, the kind of fascinating thing for me was, 23:06 is that, in my early Christian immaturity, I didn't fully grasp 23:12 the idea that God still wanted to bring all of my friends, too. 23:16 He wasn't just, oh, David is so special, he is, he's the apple 23:20 of my eye. 23:21 I need him. 23:22 As opposed to not all the others as well, and I think that that's 23:25 the thing that's happening here. 23:28 God is saying, yeah, okay, Abraham, you're ready, this is, 23:30 okay, come on, come on. 23:31 But I'm not, I still love, for God so loved the world that he 23:35 gave his, not for God so loved Abram, for God so loved the 23:37 world that he, etc. And I was just thinking, I can relate to 23:39 this, because when I first came out, I began to relate to my 23:45 former friends in a, I'm ashamed to say, a fairly immature way, I 23:50 just felt separation, elited, I've got it you don't. 23:55 Why do you do that? 23:57 And almost self-righteous, which is a real tragedy because I was 24:01 learning about the righteousness of Christ, which was making me 24:04 feel somehow more righteous as opposed to my others, and I 24:07 wonder how many of us and our listeners or watchers can relate 24:12 to that, because I have people say to me all the time, how do I 24:15 relate to my former friends? 24:18 And if I made a mistake, it wasn't that I stayed too close 24:21 to my former friends, it's that I over alienated them. 24:24 And I'm not trying to pretend like this is an easy path to 24:25 walk. 24:27 It's not easy. 24:28 It is complex because you wanna keep your friends, but you're 24:30 not still doing that and we don't do that and I don't do 24:32 that and I don't do that. 24:34 But what I did, and I think it was the wrong thing, was I 24:36 basically, I just sealed myself away, and in hindsight, if I 24:40 have one major regret in my Christian experience is that I 24:42 know I alienated former friends, not just from God, not just from 24:48 me, but from the God that they took me to be representing. 24:51 And so, I love this text here where God's like, Abraham, 24:54 you're my guy, but I still got a few generations with these 24:57 Amorites because I love these. 24:59 --There's a responsibility with that, isn't there? 25:01 Great word. 25:04 God is implying, you have a responsibility. 25:09 --In you, all of the nations of the earth shall be blessed, are 25:10 the Amorites? 25:11 --All the nations. 25:13 --This same theme falls right into chapter 16, I don't know if 25:16 we're done here, but here's this, we know that Abraham gets 25:20 together with Hagar. 25:21 We know that God ends up saying, that's not gonna work. 25:24 And we know that Sarah wants Ishmael, the son of Hagar and 25:29 Abraham, out of the camp. 25:30 And yet, God says, I'm gonna bless him. 25:34 There's room for him. 25:35 He does need to move, but I still love him and I still have 25:36 a future for him. 25:38 So it's the same theme that's being developed right there. 25:39 --I'd never seen the connection between that and 15 and then in 25:43 16 because he does say, you're right, Ishmael's your son. 25:44 And I'll bless him accordingly. 25:46 He's not the promised son, but he's your son and he will be 25:49 blessed accordingly. 25:50 We see here the magnanimity of God. 25:52 He's looking out for the Canaanites, he's looking out for 25:55 the Ishmaels. 25:56 Which God didn't intend for Ishmael to be born under those 25:58 circumstances. 25:59 And he's looking out for the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, etc. 26:02 --He almost accommodates to the human situation. 26:05 --Almost, he completely accommodates. 26:07 --It's a beautiful thing. 26:08 Even though his way, in order to fit as many things as possible 26:15 into his overall vision. 26:17 --Well, this creates a massive misconception in current 26:21 biblical analysis. 26:23 People look at scripture and say, this is so archaic and 26:26 barbaric, this God was okay with polygamy, for example. 26:34 This God was okay with slavery, for example. 26:36 This God was okay with war. 26:38 But the word that you're using, which is very appropriate is 26:42 that no, God's not okay with any breakdown of relational 26:46 integrity. 26:48 God's not okay with anything contrary to love. 26:51 That's the overall message of scripture, but God is 26:54 accommodating in the sense that he's dealing with people where 26:57 they are. 26:59 I mean, Ishmael is the product of Abraham entering into sexual 27:04 relations with a woman that's not his wife, but he takes her 27:08 as a wife, now he's got two wives. 27:10 God's not okay with that arrangement, and yet, God works 27:13 with, in that particular segment of history, in that situation, 27:16 God works with the human predicament to bring good out of 27:23 the messes that we make. 27:24 So, I like the word accommodation. 27:26 --It's so bizarre, everything that you just said, that even 27:29 the acts of God where he is being accommodating and merciful 27:33 and gracious, polygamy, and all this stuff. 27:36 --He's criticized for it. 27:37 --He is criticized. 27:38 He is criticized. 27:40 --Satan is given a completely different slant. 27:41 --Totally. 27:42 Unjust. 27:43 --How could he do that? 27:45 --On the very cases where he's being the exact opposite. 27:48 --I read something recently where this guy was commenting on 27:52 the fact that we want God to intervene, why doesn't God do 27:55 something? 27:58 But then, the moment God intervenes, we're like, why did 27:59 he do that? 28:01 It's intervene. 28:03 --It's kinda like, and this is a creative illustration, but it's 28:06 kind of like this whole idea that, why would God kill all 28:08 those animals? 28:10 What kind of God is that? 28:11 And yet, you know, we don't have any problem killing animals so 28:13 that we can have food in our stomachs, you know, and eat all 28:15 of this, but God does it for a purpose. 28:18 He's doing it to illustrate, this is what sin does. 28:21 In fact, he's not the one that's requiring it, sin's requiring it 28:23 so that he can show us what it leads to. 28:26 But we're doing it to fill our bellies. 28:27 We're doing it for the taste. 28:28 --I'm a vegetarian. 28:29 --Me, too, but you get the point. 28:31 --There's a historical context here, though, on what you're 28:33 saying, James, and that is that scripture makes it clear that 28:37 Abraham is living in a culture in which human sacrifice is the 28:41 common approach to God. 28:43 So, here comes this accommodating God who comes 28:46 along, and he implements a sacrificial service that sets 28:51 parameters on the sacrifices, not in order to be cruel to 28:58 animals, but in order to preserve humanity from greater 29:03 cruelty in the situation. 29:05 So, again, the word that Jeffery was using, accommodation, God 29:09 was accommodating, there's a prime example of this in 29:12 scripture that just immediately clicks, and I'm not gonna turn 29:14 there, but I'll just mention it. 29:16 God says to Israel, later in Israelite history, I will govern 29:23 you and lead you by and through my prophet. 29:26 That's the arrangement. 29:27 People say, no, no, no, we want a monarch, we want a king like 29:31 all the other nations. 29:32 God says, no, you don't actually want a king. 29:34 I'm not gonna give you a king. 29:36 No, we want a king, and they demand it. 29:38 So, God gives them what they demanded in King Saul. 29:42 But God, before, he warned them, if you go with this system of 29:45 government, he's gonna take your women and make them concubines, 29:49 he's going to take your sons off to war and he's gonna take your 29:51 land and tax it very heavily. 29:53 You're entering into a system that you don't really want, but 29:57 if you're demanding it, I'll give you a king. 30:00 So, then, God gives them, by accommodating and stays 30:03 connected with the people rather than abandoning them. 30:07 This is the clear example, a clear example in scripture of 30:12 the fact that God is condescending. 30:15 He humbles himself, he stays engaged. 30:18 --He commits himself to the process. 30:20 --He really does. 30:21 We get it wrong so many times. 30:23 --We fail to appreciate the self-limitation that God has 30:27 placed on himself in engaging with other volitional beings. 30:31 So, like, take the Ishmael thing. 30:34 Okay, now there's an Ishmael. 30:36 But it wasn't God's design or desire for Abraham and Sarah and 30:42 Hagar to come up with this other plan, but now here's an Ishmael. 30:45 So, God has been constrained, his actions are now constrained 30:50 by the actions of others, and this has created a situation 30:54 which God had not willed or intentioned or desired, but he 30:56 still related to that situation in keeping with his goodness and 31:00 with keeping with his character. 31:02 --It's incredible actually, if you think that through, it's 31:04 remarkable. 31:05 --C.S. 31:06 Lewis calls this the greatest of all mysteries and miracles, that 31:08 the creator, right? 31:11 So, as I am to this little, you know, ball here that represents 31:14 the world, God is infinitely more to this world, and he says 31:19 the idea that the creator would make something that was capable 31:24 of resisting him. 31:26 He says it's the greatest of miracles and mysteries. 31:28 So, now that you can be resisted, and now that your will 31:30 can be thwarted and you don't always get your way, you have to 31:33 become accommodationist. 31:36 Either that, or you just obliterate the whole thing, say, 31:37 okay, we're done, we're done with that, you know, we're done 31:39 with that. 31:41 That's one way to sort of deal with it. 31:42 Or, you can accommodate yourself to the situation. 31:46 I do think we need to make a point, a very important 31:48 clarification here. 31:50 God never accommodates evil. 31:52 But he is continually accommodating evil people. 31:56 Namely people like the four of us here at this table. 31:58 --That's an important... 32:00 --That's an important distinction. 32:01 --But it's turned upside down so many times. 32:04 I mean, think about this for example, just for an example. 32:06 An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 32:08 Okay, that is a civil law. 32:12 And we look at it and we think, oh, Jesus came and said, you've 32:14 heard it, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but I say you 32:16 shouldn't, but at the same time, the principal for an eye for an 32:20 eye and a tooth for a tooth, to me, is not only just, it's very 32:24 merciful. 32:25 Because our natural tendency is, oh, you took my eye? 32:28 I'm gonna take both of yours. 32:30 Oh, you took my tooth? 32:31 I'm gonna take out your whole, the whole denture system. 32:34 It's, seriously, that's the way we think. 32:37 So, even the phrase, eye for eye. 32:39 Listen, guys, it's not two eyes for an eye. 32:41 It's not the whole denture system for a tooth. 32:43 He's setting a limit to our natural tendency to just wanna 32:46 overdo. 32:48 And even to this day, when you look at political systems, when 32:49 you look at the world and the violence in the world, they're 32:55 violating that principal. 32:56 --Overreactions. 32:58 --You want my whole village? 32:59 We're gonna go in there and kill 100 people. 33:01 --I think something else is going on here in the story of 33:04 Abraham because chapter 17, after the Ishmael incident is 33:08 kind of unfolded in chapter 16, verse 17 opens with, when 33:13 Abraham was 99 years old. 33:15 Okay, 99 years old. 33:19 --And that's the beginning, this is where it opens, he's already 33:21 99. 33:22 --Yeah, he's 99 years old, and what unfolds? 33:26 God says, basically, Ishmael's not the one. 33:30 Abraham's pleading with God, may Ishmael live before you? 33:35 In other words, Lord, can he be the one? 33:38 Just accept him as the one, and the Lord says, skipping down to 33:43 chapter 17 verse 19, then God said, no. 33:45 No, it's not Ishmael. 33:50 It's as if God took Abraham and Sarah right to the edge, 99 33:55 years old. 33:57 She's not far behind him. 33:59 Sarah and Abraham are literally incredulous over this, in 34:04 chapter 17 verse 17, it doesn't say that Abraham just chuckled 34:09 at the idea, it says, then Abraham fell on his face and 34:12 laughed. 34:14 He is literally on the ground busting up with laughter at the 34:19 idea that a child could be produced from his biological 34:24 situation. 34:26 He's 99 years old. 34:28 So, he's laughing at the situation. 34:30 The story continues to unfold and Sarah also laughs. 34:34 She finds it funny. 34:36 And the Lord does something very interesting. 34:38 He says, I'm going to do it. 34:40 I'm gonna follow through. 34:41 You're going to have a child, I promise. 34:45 Just like I indicated you would. 34:47 And then the laugh's gonna be on you, so to speak, because here's 34:50 the name you're gonna give him, Isaac, which means, funny. 34:53 Means hilarious. 34:55 --God always has the last laugh. 34:56 --The name means laughter. 34:58 --You know, Ty, I think it's interesting that in Genesis 35:04 11:30, when Abram and his wife were being introduced, that it 35:09 says in that introduction, this goes exactly with what you've 35:12 been saying, it says, but Sarah was barren. 35:16 She had no child. 35:17 It's just a short little verse. 35:20 It's just very quick, It's developing, you know, this 35:23 genealogy before getting to the call of Abraham in chapter 12, 35:27 but Moses wants us to know this little piece of detail that 35:31 she's barren. 35:33 So, to me, that's significant you know, because you're 35:36 highlighting, 99 years old. 35:38 It's not just the age factor that makes this a crazy thing to 35:43 believe, is it? 35:45 It's not just that. 35:46 She was barren and so, it seems like God is stacking 35:50 impossibility on top of impossibility on top of 35:53 impossibility. 35:54 --Well, he was about ready to add some of his own 35:56 impossibility to it, because he's gonna give circumcision, 35:58 right? 36:00 --What do you mean? 36:01 --Well, that's the point. 36:03 He's going to basically say, Abram, you have tried to do for 36:06 me what I told you I would do, remember? 36:10 I'm gonna, and I will, and I and I and I, and then I'm gonna do 36:15 this, and his response, the appropriate response is exactly 36:17 what Moses records, he believed him. 36:18 He believed him. 36:19 And then a period of time goes by, no descendants, no 36:22 offspring. 36:23 So, he does the Hagar/Ishmael thing, and when God shows up and 36:26 says, hey, you're gonna have decedents, he says, let Ishmael 36:29 live before you. 36:30 Ishmael's the guy, and he says, hey, you're right, Ishmael's 36:32 your son, but he's not the promised son. 36:34 I said it would come from you and from Sarah. 36:36 Right? 36:38 So, then God says, and here's how we're gonna do this. 36:40 At this point, he gives him what he calls a sign of the covenant. 36:44 And the sign of the covenant is circumcision. 36:48 And here's the key thing, it's not as though God is just 36:51 saying, let's cut something off, you know, let's just, what can 36:55 we do? 36:56 Maybe cut the earlobe, maybe we could cut the pinky off. 36:58 Oh, I know, I know what we can cut off. 37:00 I know who's really gonna hurt now. 37:02 --You'll remember this time. 37:03 --You'll remember it. 37:05 So, what he essentially says is, Abram, you tried to do for me 37:09 what I said I would do for you. 37:11 You tried to solve the problem of your descendants with your 37:15 member, with your manhood. 37:18 And so, he says, here's what we're gonna do. 37:20 We'll cut the tip of that thing off. 37:22 We will wound, you will have wounded genitals. 37:25 Now, we here, we think of circumcision in, you know, a 37:29 nice sanitary hospital with a razor sharp scalpel, etc., etc. 37:32 I mean, what are they, was it like a rock? 37:35 Was it like a scapula? 37:38 --It was a little messier. 37:40 --And infection. 37:41 I mean, a wound in ancient times was not like today, put some 37:44 antibiotic, some Neosporin on it, you get some whatever and 37:46 all is well. 37:47 This is to risk injury, this is to risk infection, this is to 37:51 risk death. 37:52 And so, he basically says, you're old, your wife is barren, 37:55 and now, as a sign that this is something I will do, and not 37:58 something that you will do, there will be a woundedness in 38:02 your genitals, and it will be passed on, passed on, passed on. 38:05 So that no one will ever doubt that this is not something that 38:08 Abraham did, this is something that God did and that Abraham 38:11 believed in. 38:12 So, this sign, it's interesting, by the way. 38:15 --Paul uses that, Paul uses that. 38:16 --Well, not only does he use it, but listen to this fascinating 38:18 little textual point. 38:21 Moses calls it a sign of the covenant. 38:22 Guess what Paul calls it in Romans 4? 38:26 He calls it a sign of righteousness. 38:28 And those are the same thing. 38:30 They're the same thing. 38:32 A sign of righteousness, righteousness in scripture is 38:35 being true to what you say you will do. 38:37 --And in Philippians 3, he says, in verse 3, we are the 38:40 circumcision, we worship God, we rejoice in Christ Jesus and we 38:44 have no confidence in the flesh. 38:47 --I'm gonna say this one final thing before we take a break 38:49 here, and that is this: it is one of the great ironies and 38:52 tragedies in scripture that the very thing that was given to the 38:55 descendants of Abraham, Israel, as a sign to not trust himself, 39:00 to not trust the flesh, becomes itself the very centerpiece of 39:05 isolation, legalism, and self-dependence. 39:09 --Could be repeating that history. 39:11 --I think we are repeating that history with different things, 39:14 things like the Sabbath and other things. 39:15 That's a different conversation, but the point is, at this point 39:17 in the story, God is saying, you're old, your wife is barren, 39:21 and now you have wounded genitals, and I'll still keep my 39:23 promise to you. 39:24 --You're 99, but I'm going to come through, because this is, 39:28 by my power, by my faithfulness, yes, Jeffery, not by your 39:33 faithfulness. 39:35 --We are firmly ensconced in the Old Testament. 39:37 --And the New Testament, we're finding in the Old Testament, in 39:41 principal. 39:42 --In fact, in Romans 4, Paul doesn't just say that Abraham's 39:44 old, Paul says that Abraham can't have children. 39:47 --That's right. 39:48 --Okay, so let's wrap this little part of the conversation 39:51 up, we'll be right back and we'll be right back in with this 39:54 Abraham story. 39:56 [Music] 40:04 --A Light in Zambia is a moving video documentary that traces 40:08 the stories of 5 amazing African men and women who encountered 40:12 Christ through the powerful medium of gospel literature. 40:15 To receive your free copy, call 877-585-1111, or write to Light 40:21 Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road ,Jasper, OR 97438. 40:28 Once again, to receive your free copy of A Light in Zambia, call 40:32 877-585-1111, or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell 40:41 Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 40:44 Simply ask for the Zambia DVD. 40:47 [Music] 40:53 --Well, I've got some really good news to start our third and 40:55 final segment here, that even though the earth had been cast 40:58 away, it's made its way back to the table. 41:01 --It's restored. 41:02 --We're gonna leave it there because God is a better person 41:04 than I am, so even though I threw it away, the Lord has 41:09 brought us back. 41:11 We are in Genesis, well, we're sort of walking through Genesis. 41:14 When you think about it, we're being fairly thorough here. 41:16 I'm actually quite pleased with the speed that we're moving. 41:20 We're in chapter 16, we talked about the experience of Ishmael 41:24 and Hagar, and we talked about circumcision as we closed, and 41:28 we basically said that circumcision was the sign, sign 41:31 of the covenant, and Moses writing here in Genesis 17, and 41:35 Paul says sign of righteousness in Romans 4, same thing, not 2 41:39 different things, the same thing, and the whole idea here 41:42 is that, it's not something that we're gonna do, it's something 41:45 that God is gonna do, and we're gonna believe that God is gonna 41:48 do it. 41:49 Abraham is, as it were, at his wit's end. 41:51 Right, he has done, he is physically exhausted, he's 41:54 probably emotionally exhausted at this point, he's just been 41:57 wounded, and so, now, if anything is gonna happen in 42:00 terms of fulfilling the promise of the land and the children, 42:04 and the offspring, it's gonna have to be something God does. 42:07 Right, so that's where we're at. 42:08 --That's what he intended all along. 42:10 --That's what he intended all along. 42:11 You could say that the whole circumcision thing was a great 42:13 big detour. 42:14 That was not God's plan. 42:16 Again, he didn't, he didn't say, hey, let's start lopping stuff 42:18 off. 42:19 No, it was, hey, we're gonna learn a lesson here, and your 42:21 descendants are gonna learn a lesson, unfortunately, that 42:23 lesson went largely unlearned, as we learn as we progress. 42:26 But here we are, and we're sort of making our way through 42:30 Abraham's story and I love the language that you used early on, 42:32 Ty, and I've forgotten it yet again, but I loved it, a series 42:35 of... 42:37 --Encounters. 42:38 --Encounters. 42:39 So, it's just like we're getting these little vignettes of, you 42:41 know, Abraham with God, scene one. 42:43 Abraham with God, scene, you know, we're accustomed to that, 42:45 being here surrounded by cameras, scene 2, scene 3, and 42:47 in each pass, and each scene, we're like, whoa, God is, that's 42:51 a really cool thing that God did, that's a really awesome 42:54 thing that God did, and the picture and the character of who 42:56 he is is just revealing to us, but the thing that happens next, 43:00 or, I mean, obviously, you have 18, 19, 20, but we're gonna just 43:04 skip right up to, if we can, 21, 22. 43:09 The thing that sort of happens next in the story with the birth 43:13 of Isaac and then the seemingly, I mean, I don't even know what 43:19 the word to use is here, inconceivable request that God 43:23 makes, seems to run at exact cross purposes with everything 43:27 that's happened up to this point. 43:28 --Well, it's astounding if you think about it. 43:29 God says, Abraham, I'm going to bless the whole world through 43:33 your biological lineage. 43:36 But, I don't have a son, Lord. 43:38 I'm gonna give you a son. 43:40 He doesn't get a son. 43:43 Ten years go by, as James pointed out. 43:46 So, he gets his own ingenuity, and he manufactures a solution. 43:50 You have Ishmael. 43:52 Can Ishmael be the one? 43:54 No, he can't be the promised one, can't be the promised one. 43:57 Finally, Abraham and Sarah have Isaac, and you pointed out the 44:06 name is funny. 44:07 --Now, I'm feeling it, this is good, I have a son now, it's 44:10 going to come to pass, and the Lord says, now what I want you 44:14 to do is take Isaac to the mountain, put him on a stone 44:19 altar, slit the boy's throat and burn him to ashes. 44:25 I mean, I'm saying that in short form just to give, here's 44:29 Abraham, what? 44:32 --It makes no sense. 44:33 --Should we get Ishmael back? 44:36 --You're not happy with Isaac? 44:37 --It's just astounding that this is what God is asking at that 44:43 point in the experience. 44:45 --It's completely counterintuitive to everything 44:48 that we've gotten to up until this point. 44:50 --And there's something dark here, I mean, think about it. 44:53 If this is a request of the Lord, that any one of us at this 44:59 table, and most people in the world would reject just 45:03 offhandedly, absolutely not, that's demonic, that's wrong, 45:09 that's immoral, no, I'm not going to perform human 45:13 sacrifice. 45:16 --And Abraham didn't react that way. 45:17 --Abraham said, let's get some wood, get the donkey, come on, 45:21 Isaac, we're heading up to the mountain. 45:23 He's about to follow through with it, and this is astounding, 45:26 because, later on, and Moses is the one writing this story, but 45:30 later on in Deuteronomy 12, I think it is, through Moses, God 45:35 says that human sacrifice is an abomination to him. 45:41 So, if you just look at scripture, God is saying it's an 45:45 abomination to me, the idea of human sacrifice, and yet, you 45:49 back up in the story and God is requesting the very thing of 45:52 Abraham that later on, God calls an abomination. 45:55 What's with that? 45:57 What is with that, I mean, seriously? 45:58 --But this is the thing that you are mentioning in Deuteronomy 46:01 12, it's, can I just read it? 46:03 --Yeah, do it. 46:05 --It says, basically, you shall not worship the Lord your God in 46:08 that way, then it says, for every abomination to the Lord, 46:12 which he hates, they have done to their gods, for they burn 46:16 even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. 46:20 So, you know. 46:23 --Don't approach me with human sacrifice. 46:25 --Yeah, that's what other gods do, in other words, that's what 46:28 other gods do, that's not what I do, it's what anybody post Moses 46:32 would've said. 46:34 But why doesn't Abraham react that way, and that's the 46:36 provocative question. 46:37 Why does it almost seem like a normal request? 46:42 --He's about to follow through with it. 46:43 --Yeah. 46:45 --So, Ty, I want you to get back on that line of reasoning there. 46:47 Let me read my favorite text with regard to child sacrifice 46:50 in the bible, Jeremiah 32:35, this is an indictment, God's 46:56 indictment through the prophet Jeremiah, of the things that 46:59 Israel did, in defiance of texts like the one you just read in 47:02 Deuteronomy 12. 47:04 Listen to this: And they built the high places of Baal, which 47:07 are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and 47:09 their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, who is one 47:13 of these pagan gods, which I did not command them, comma, and 47:19 this is the point, nor did it come into my mind that they 47:25 should do this abomination to cause Judah to sin. 47:27 --It's inconceivable. 47:30 --This didn't even ever come, I'm God and it didn't come into 47:33 my mind. 47:34 So, this whole way is so counterintuitive and so 47:38 radically at odds with God's character, but here's the key 47:41 point, as we're gonna see, it apparently is not radically at 47:45 odds with Abraham's culture. 47:47 --It couldn't have been, or he would've... 47:49 --He would've reacted like we would've reacted. 47:51 --Right. 47:53 --So, God is actually reaching Abraham here in a culturally 47:56 sensitive and significant way, saying, okay, I know how your 47:58 ancestors and those around you and your neighboring communities 48:03 and other, I know how the Amorites and others relate to 48:06 God, so I'm gonna teach you that this is not how it is, but he 48:11 doesn't, of course, that's the punch line. 48:13 --He doesn't just say, hey this is the way it is, he takes 48:16 Abraham's darkest fear of what God in the appeasement, 48:20 Babylonian, salvation by works way of thinking, he takes the 48:24 thing that Abraham fears most that God might require, and then 48:30 he leads him right up to the brink, right up to the edge, and 48:33 as Abraham's hand is lifted with the knife, God stops his hand 48:40 and says, I will provide them the sacrifice. 48:46 Something's going on here, God is redirecting the focus from 48:49 the man making the sacrifice to God making the sacrifice and it 48:55 says, there in Genesis 22 that Abraham gave a name to the 48:59 place. 49:01 And he called the place the Lord will provide in chapter 22, 49:05 verse 14. 49:06 The Lord will provide. 49:07 --So, basically, that story is by way of contrast. 49:13 In other words, God isn't asking Abraham to do this to parallel, 49:17 to teach him something about what he is like, what God is 49:20 like, he's doing it to teach him what he's not like. 49:23 --It's an emancipation exercise. 49:26 --And it brings to mind that Jesus used this sort of contrast 49:30 approach sometimes in the parable where, it's in Luke 11, 49:35 where he's talking about prayer, and he says, which of you goes 49:38 to your friend's house and you're knocking on his door, or 49:40 you need bread, you need food, and your friend inside says, 49:43 look, man, I'm in bed, I know you need bread, I'm sorry, come 49:46 back tomorrow. 49:49 He says, no, he says, even if the guy wouldn't come open the 49:52 door because you're friends, he would come and open the door 49:55 because you're bothering him. 49:57 And then Jesus says, this is a lesson in how you pray, because 50:02 God is precisely not like that. 50:05 Right? 50:06 --It's a lesson in contrast. 50:07 --It's a lesson in contrast. 50:08 So, the point is that this has been one of the central stories 50:13 in the entire Old Testament, I think this is a profound idea, 50:16 is a lesson in contrast. 50:18 --But it couldn't have taken place unless Abraham was 50:24 believing in God, growing in his faith, and had a heart that was 50:28 inclined toward obedience. 50:30 So, God is telling Abraham to do this, knowing that Abraham will 50:35 be obedient and follow through, and in that sense, it's a test 50:40 in Abraham's faith in God, so God is achieving two things at 50:44 once. 50:45 --That's a good point. 50:46 --Yeah, he's saying, he's saying I'm going to test your faith, we 50:49 need to live up to all the light we have, we need to have an 50:53 obedient spirit toward the Lord in order for God to lead us on, 50:57 we need to obey conscience, even if our conscience is ill 51:01 informed, in order for us to grow in our faith and to have a 51:05 more mature perspective. 51:07 --You know, I hate to throw a cog in the wheel, but I've never 51:11 seen that in these texts, and I've listened carefully to the 51:16 presentation that all three of you seem to see here, and I 51:21 still don't agree with it. 51:23 I really believe in this context that Abraham was a firm believer 51:27 in God, was out of that Babylonian sacrificial ideology 51:31 of thinking. 51:32 It was very difficult for him to obey God because he was already 51:35 out of that, and that God was using this as a revelation of 51:39 the ultimate sacrifice that God was going to make, that even on 51:43 his way to the mountain, Abraham said, by faith, God will provide 51:46 a sacrifice. 51:48 But I see where you're coming from, I see the reasons, and I 51:49 see the evidence here, I just don't buy it yet. 51:53 --Well, in terms of the objective, I think it's, I think 51:56 all three, I think there's actually three objectives, 51:59 number 1, it's a test to Abraham's faith, number 2, I'm 52:05 not like other gods, you're not gonna sacrifice your son for me. 52:08 --Right. 52:09 --And number 3, this is supposed to point to the sacrifice of 52:15 Christ that's coming. 52:16 --I just don't think that it's a test to his faith that it's the 52:19 natural thing that Abraham would've done. 52:21 That, oh cool, yeah, God said that and he just said, oh, yeah, 52:24 because this is my cultural thing, I'll just, oh, yeah, of 52:25 course, we wouldn't do that, but I will do that, I don't think 52:28 so, I think Abraham was like, what? 52:30 --Of course he was like what? 52:31 --We're not saying it was an easy thing to do, we're saying 52:34 it was in keeping with what was expected from gods. 52:39 --All I'm saying is I don't see that at this point in Abraham's 52:42 experience. 52:43 I don't see Abraham giving into or gravitating toward that. 52:48 I don't see him thinking that way, culturally, anymore at this 52:51 point. 52:52 Yeah, okay. 52:53 --Well, the only thing that I would say to that, not to try to 52:56 convince you, but just to sort of solidify my point is that we 52:58 know that this idea that child sacrifice was pleasing to some 53:04 gods is a textual idea, right? 53:07 Jeremiah, in Deuteronomy 11, and even Micah 6, would you be 53:11 pleased with my firstborn? 53:13 So, that idea is at least something that is in the air. 53:17 We don't know to what degree it was in Abraham's head, but it 53:20 was at least in the air. 53:22 The thing that I really like, to kind of move away from that 53:24 part, is that when he's brought to the mountain and Isaac is 53:29 there and the knife is about to come down and then the hand is 53:33 stayed or stopped, the thing that I really like is that the 53:36 natural, I think our natural theological conclusion, and I 53:41 was this way myself, and I'm sure that others have been, is 53:44 to think, oh, so Abraham is like God and Isaac is like Jesus, 53:52 he's the son. 53:53 Right? 53:54 Jesus is the son of God. 53:56 However, there's one major difference between Jesus and 54:01 Isaac. 54:04 Isaac lived, and Jesus didn't. 54:08 The real Isaac in the story is us, we're the Isaac in the 54:10 story. 54:11 The Jesus in the story is the ram that's caught in the 54:14 thicket, and that's the thing I just love that. 54:18 Jesus isn't Isaac, Jesus is the ram, you're Isaac. 54:20 You're the one that's preserved. 54:23 I'm preserved. 54:25 --I also love the fact that Abraham is the father. 54:28 In other words, when I see this picture right here in the Old 54:31 Testament, it gives me a glimpse of what it means when it says in 54:34 John 3:16, God so loved the world that he gave his only 54:38 begotten son. 54:39 Was that easy? 54:40 Was it easy for Abraham to do? 54:41 Was it natural, was it his tendency, was it his culture? 54:43 No, this went against, everything, every fiber of his 54:46 being said, no, I can't do this, and it was a faith venture for 54:48 Abraham, and it was a revelation to Abraham of the very heart of 54:53 God. 54:55 And how difficult it was for God to give, to sacrifice for us his 55:00 only begotten son. 55:01 Which, to me, is a beautiful picture of the heart of God that 55:04 we don't always see in the Old or New Testament, we see it 55:06 right here, it's significant. 55:08 --Well, 2 Corinthians chapter 5, is it? 55:11 Is that where Paul says that God was in Christ, reconciling the 55:16 world to himself? 55:18 Is it? 55:19 Okay, so that's indicating that the sacrifice was not only on 55:22 the part of Jesus, but the sacrifice was on the part of the 55:25 Father. 55:27 And the two, Father and Son, are being severed, cut in two, cut 55:31 off. 55:33 --That goes back to the pieces that were cut. 55:35 --Yeah, that's right, so there's this horrible sense of 55:40 separation that's taking place, and I think that Abraham, in 55:45 going through this process that God has commanded him to go 55:50 through is feeling that to the degree that it's possible for a 55:54 human being to feel that sense of separation and sacrifice and 55:59 it's as if God is tapping Abraham on the shoulder and he's 56:05 saying, in so many words, do you feel the fullness of that sense 56:10 of separation? 56:14 That is prophetic of what I'm going to experience in order to 56:19 save you. 56:20 And the key word's again, I'll come back to this, in the story 56:23 of Genesis 22 is in verse 14, Abraham named the place, the 56:30 Lord will provide. 56:33 It's not Abraham that's providing the atonement for sin, 56:39 it's not Abraham that's providing the sacrifice. 56:42 God is basically leading him, straight up til this point, he's 56:45 saying, sacrifice your son, sacrifice your son, sacrifice 56:48 your son, and then God is saying, no, don't sacrifice your 56:52 son. 56:53 I'm going to provide the sacrifice for sin, the atonement 56:59 is going to be made by my suffering, not by yours. 57:03 It's beautiful. 57:05 --It's absolutely beautiful, but the point you just made 57:07 absolutely assumes something that we're gonna have to pick up 57:10 in a later program because we're coming down to the end of it 57:12 here, and that is that the relationship between God and 57:16 Abraham and Isaac is not perfectly analogous to the 57:20 relationship between God and Christ, because Christ was God. 57:24 This is not a three party arrangement, where God is taking 57:27 Jesus and doing something to him, and I know we're gonna get 57:31 there, but if we say, God would never do that, God would never 57:34 do that, but then, this book that I mentioned earlier that I 57:36 read on Hinduism, it was about the illegality of the gospel. 57:39 It was basically saying, what kind of a God would do that to 57:41 his son? 57:42 And that's a great point, unless Jesus himself is God. 57:47 So, this is not something that is being done to him, it's 57:51 something that he himself is voluntarily doing. 57:55 --He's submitting to the sacrifice. 57:58 --There's the intimation of that here in that Abrahams' an old 58:01 man and Isaac could've easily said, I'm out. 58:03 That's not happening. 58:05 --And he was willing to go through with it. 58:07 --So, there's intimations there, but at the end of the day, 58:09 there's the same lesson of circumcision, the whole thing is 58:12 saying, God is gonna do something, God, I made a 58:15 covenant, I'm gonna keep my covenant at the expense and the 58:18 cost, even of my own life. 58:20 I will be faithful, I will be faithful, I will be faithful. 58:23 And our job is the same responsibility, the same job of 58:26 Abraham. 58:27 Our job is to believe it. 58:29 To believe that God will do what he said he would do. 58:31 --All the way back here at the beginning of the biblical 58:34 narrative, God is speaking through the story into humanity 58:39 and saying, I'm going to sacrifice myself to save you. 58:45 I'm going to remain faithful to the end to you, regardless of 58:51 how you respond to me. 58:53 [Music] 59:03 [Music] |
Revised 2014-12-17