Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeff Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000015
|
00:01 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:20 Table talk is just a great idea that Martin Luther came up with. 00:26 Quite a long time ago. 00:27 It's not our idea we're just doing this thing that we're 00:31 doing at this table because somebody's done it before us. 00:34 I think we should remind those who are sitting in on the 00:38 conversation with us why we're doing this, what it's about, and 00:43 what that history is with Martin Luther. 00:44 --Well the idea with Luther was that he would just invite 00:48 colleagues, students. 00:50 Friends, neighbors, travelers over to the house and they'd sit 00:53 down at the table, not over a water but over a slightly 00:57 stronger drink and they would just talk about everything 01:01 politics, art, literature. 01:02 And a lot of it revolved, of course, around scripture and God 01:05 and Christ and God's goodness. 01:07 And there was a lot of wisdom that flowed from that table. 01:11 We're hoping that some wisdom will flow from this one as well. 01:14 But people would comment on the pithiness and the cleverness and 01:19 the wisdom that Luther and others, you know the table just 01:21 kind of a cool thing was happening. 01:23 And so many of those things were written down. 01:26 You can actually buy the book. 01:27 Yeah Table Talk. 01:29 --It's called Table Talk yeah. 01:30 And so this is a conversation we're just 4 guys who are 01:34 friends and our friendship is largely censored around this 01:40 table in exploring the concepts and ideas of scripture. 01:45 --Amen. 01:46 --That's the point we did. 01:47 --And the God of scripture. 01:48 --And the God of scripture. 01:49 We did our first series of conversations; a 13 part series 01:52 and we called in the Big Picture Series. 01:55 And it was well received and so we're doing it again. 01:59 --It was fun. 02:00 --Yeah it was fun. 02:01 And this one is we've titled The Righteousness by Faith Series. 02:05 And we all kind of don't like the title in and of itself 02:10 because it sounds technical and we want the ideas to be 02:13 accessible. 02:14 We spent our first time together in this 13 part series. 02:18 --Because this is number 2 now. 02:20 --This is number 2 yeah we are just exploring what the term 02:24 righteousness by faith means. 02:26 And a lot of great ideas came to the table. 02:30 I thought it was interesting to realize that righteousness by 02:34 faith while it sounds technical is really relational language. 02:37 It's talking about God acting a certain way toward fallen human 02:43 beings in such a way to arouse or to initiate a response from 02:49 human beings. 02:50 --I loved the fact, I hadn't heard that story. 02:52 I've heard your testimony before. 02:53 I've heard your testimony before but I've never heard that story 02:56 that you told when you were 18 or 17? 02:59 No 18 you wrote down the first thing was righteousness by 03:03 faith. 03:04 I think that's. 03:05 --I didn't understand any of it and what I wrote was I mean it 03:08 really just was my very just the beginning ideas. 03:11 --But even in your current form even in it's little germ form 03:16 the idea was implanted in your mind by the Holy Spirit. 03:19 That's a God thing. 03:20 --Yeah yeah. 03:21 So now we're moving on in this discussion in this conversation 03:27 from our first session, which was titled 2 Religions. 03:32 And we want to flush that out a little bit more because we began 03:37 with some pretty complex language and ideas. 03:41 We got a little bit wordy and so what were we talking about in 03:46 that first session when we were suggesting that there are 03:49 basically only 2 ways of perceiving reality, God, 03:54 ourselves in relation to God. 03:55 2 basic philosophies 2 basic ideologies. 03:58 Would you be comfortable saying it that way? 04:00 2 theologies. 04:02 --I think we should. 04:03 I like it. 04:04 I think we should recognize because every one of us at this 04:06 table wants to be accurate. 04:08 You know we want simple systems that work. 04:10 But we also want accuracy and we recognize that saying that there 04:14 are only 2 religions in the world that that can come off as 04:17 a gross oversimplification. 04:19 In other words we recognize the limits of it, which is why at 04:22 the end of that program we were so careful to point out that 04:26 that doesn't mean there's 2 religions; ours, which is the 04:29 right one and yours, which is the wrong one. 04:30 But there are people within various systems and even some 04:33 people within the. 04:35 --No system. 04:36 --Yeah within no system or their non-system is a system 04:39 secularism, atheism, whatever. 04:40 Who themselves get the point that reality at some level 04:45 cannot ultimately be just about me and my universe in this 04:49 super, you know, anthrop centtic or me centered world. 04:53 There's gotta be something else. 04:55 And there are certain systems ie biblical Christianity that lend 04:58 themselves to a correct understanding of that. 05:01 But that's no sure fire guarantee that just because 05:03 somebody's a Christian that they get it. 05:04 --No because you bring your perspectives to scripture. 05:07 --Of Course. 05:09 --You know you're looking at the biblical stories through the 05:12 lens that you bring to it and I think that we would all be 05:16 comfortable saying that when we come to scripture we have 05:20 presuppositions, we have prejudices, we have leanings. 05:24 And one of the things that is kind of miraculously going on 05:28 behind the scenes as the Holy Spirit works our minds is He's 05:32 kind of unscrambling the eggs so to speak. 05:34 We're mixed up. 05:36 We're confused. 05:37 We bring our confusion to scripture in the process of the 05:41 study of scripture is a process by which God helps us to begin 05:45 seeing what's actually there. 05:47 --And it's. 05:49 --View it with new eyes. 05:50 --Hey that's a good title for a book. 05:51 And it's incremental. 05:52 When I think about the way the very rudimentary and simplistic 05:57 way that I used to read scripture verses the way that I 06:00 now read it. 06:02 I don't pretend that I've some how reached Christian Maturation 06:04 and Maturity when I read the Bible. 06:05 I'm reading it for all it's worth. 06:06 But I know that as I look back from my present vantage point I 06:10 became a believer 17 years ago I think man I was very not just 06:13 simple but simplistic and sort of, I was looking for rules. 06:17 I was looking I was asking questions that were my questions 06:21 and just looking for the scriptural answers rather than 06:25 coming with a mature perspective which is ok what are scripture's 06:28 questions and then what are scripture's questions to 06:30 scripture's answers? 06:31 So anyway my point here is just to say that that's it's a 06:35 process. 06:36 --Yeah yeah. 06:37 --You don't just arrive at Christian maturity the first 06:38 time you open scripture. 06:39 And I don't pretend that any of us are here. 06:40 I mean you've been a believer for how many years now? 06:43 --More than 17. 06:44 --More than 17 how about you Jim. 06:46 --30. 06:47 --30 years so so you're in the can I say? 06:51 The twilight years of your life. 06:53 --No I'm just kidding. 06:54 [Laughter] 06:56 Because you know you're over the hill. 06:57 [Crosstalk] 06:58 --Discounts and Denny's for sure. 07:01 [Laughter] 07:02 Here's my point. 07:03 My point is 07:04 I've been over several hills so I'm just wondering which one 07:06 you're talking about 07:07 --The big one is the one I'm talking about. 07:08 [Laughter] 07:09 Even though, I'm going to get to my point, even though we're 07:12 reading scripture with more years under our belts so to 07:15 speak we wouldn't want to pretend as though we have 07:18 everything figured out. 07:19 We're on a journey. 07:20 The people that are listening in watching this program they might 07:23 be a 2-year believer a 10-year believer a 20-year believer 07:25 they're, so we're inviting them into this conversation to help 07:28 you know to learn with us how to read scripture for all it's 07:32 worth. 07:33 --And that's one of the reasons we're doing it as a conversation 07:35 because we're hoping to model what Luther called the 07:40 Priesthood of all believers concept. 07:42 And that is the idea that rather than having the view that there 07:47 are elite thinkers who can tell us how to think. 07:52 God is asking all of us to think. 07:55 All of us to engage in conversation where we cross 07:58 pollinate our ideas. 08:00 You know Jeffery says something that triggers a thought in me 08:04 and then I respond to that which triggers a thought in James and 08:08 so on with people all over the place. 08:12 We have the privilege of speaking into one another's 08:16 experience and becoming richer in our perspectives because of 08:21 the perspectives of others. 08:22 And that's a real blessing. 08:24 --We spent time talking about how revolutionary and radical it 08:28 was for Luther to do what he did not just from a spiritual or 08:31 a religious standpoint but just from a anthropological social 08:35 cultural psychological standpoint. 08:37 To stand over and against the prevailing Ecclesiastic 08:40 hierarchy that said we'll tell you what God's about, what he 08:43 wants, how to do it. 08:44 We'll tell you and your job is to do it. 08:46 --You're not supposed to think. 08:47 --He like deconstructs the whole system defederalizes the whole 08:50 system by just saying well I'm just kind of I'm going to relate 08:53 to God on the basis of His word and I'm just going to leave the 08:56 church out. 08:57 I mean what? 08:58 No you aint. 08:59 The idea that you could just bypass the church and go 09:02 straight to God was like. 09:03 --Nothing short of revolution total revolution. 09:05 --You were saying that the ripple effects of that we see 09:09 today. 09:10 --We're living in the light of that. 09:13 But it's not an understatement to say, you said this Ty earlier 09:14 and I ruminated on it in the first program but I think I 09:17 would say it this way, not a better way, just my way, is that 09:21 the United States of America whether we know it corporately 09:24 or not is standing on the shoulders of the Martin Luther's 09:27 of the world. 09:28 There is no United States without a Martin Luther it 09:30 doesn't happen. 09:31 And there's no Martin Luther without a Paul and there's no 09:33 Paul without a Jesus. 09:34 --Yeah. 09:35 --These concepts it's really interesting are both found in 09:38 Genesis. 09:39 When you think about the story and how it opens up there are 2 09:42 things you realize and that is first of all that Genesis 09:45 reveals 2 people Adam and Eve specifically who both were 09:49 believing in God and who He was and the reality of love and His 09:54 character of love. 09:55 And both ended up misunderstanding God and being 09:59 directing it in a different way in understanding His character 10:03 and what He was like. 10:04 --That's right. 10:05 --So you have the 2 religions right there the 2 ways of 10:06 thinking right there in Adam and Eve. 10:07 And we can develop that and then the second is, is that you also 10:11 had people who went directly to God who met with God who walked 10:15 with God and talked with God. 10:17 And then you had a third party come in and directly through him 10:21 to understand God. 10:23 And when that happened they understood God in a completely 10:26 different way. 10:27 --You're talking about Lucifer. 10:28 --I'm talking about the serpent Lucifer. 10:29 He comes in. 10:30 He says hey you need to see God the way I interpret God. 10:32 This is the way that I see God. 10:33 This is the way that I want you to see God. 10:35 --You got it. 10:36 --So you have both of those ideas developed early on in this 10:39 whole picture, this whole story of the Bible. 10:42 --When you look at Genesis 3:15 we talked about the tolineage, 10:45 the tolineage. 10:47 --Let's dive into it. 10:48 Let's dive into it. 10:49 --Yeah let's start in fact I think we should start in Genesis 10:51 1 because in Genesis 1 you have this whole idea of freedom which 10:54 is what we began with the whole idea of God creating us as free 10:59 beings. 11:00 One of the things I really like here in Genesis chapter 1 is 11:04 where God talks about what man can do in the garden. 11:09 And the idea is is that I have created you to enjoy everything 11:15 here, all of the creation is yours. 11:17 I'm giving you dominion over everything. 11:18 And everything that is here you can freely eat of you can freely 11:22 enjoy everything except for one thing. 11:24 --That's right. 11:25 --Chapter 2 verse 16 11:27 --Yes 11:28 --Of every tree of the Garden you may freely eat so God begins 11:30 with the premise of freedom and liberty. 11:32 Yes and that's the principle. 11:34 And yet there's this one tree there's this one test if you 11:37 will. 11:39 There's this one aspect of God's liberty in creation that calls 11:42 Adam and Eve, calls us to trust God. 11:46 --To believe Him. 11:47 --To believe Him to believe when He says but don't eat of this 11:51 tree because if you eat of this tree you're gonna surely die. 11:53 So you've got this. 11:54 --Not I'll kill you but you will die. 11:55 --Right. 11:56 Let this element then of trust of faith and believing God 11:59 believing He's a God who cares about us, who loves us and who's 12:04 not actually going to get us if we don't obey Him. 12:08 But He's actually pointing out danger that He wants us to be 12:12 kept away from. 12:13 --So they wanted they actually wanted freedom from that, from 12:15 that one prohibition. 12:16 And by seeking freedom from that one thing that God was 12:21 protecting them from they became enslaved. 12:23 --Yes. 12:24 --When God already created them in a free environment. 12:28 --A different way of understanding of God. 12:30 --So James you just said something that I don't, do you 12:33 think this is accurate that this is a completely new thought to 12:37 me that, that Adam and Eve were righteous by faith before the 12:42 fall. 12:44 Their righteousness their position of their condition as 12:48 human beings as living in love was based on a trust 12:52 relationship with God. 12:54 So there's a sense in which their righteousness or their 12:58 moral condition from the very beginning was grounded in a 13:03 trust relationship with God. 13:05 And the moment that trust was broken through the lies that 13:10 they believed regarding the character of God then trust was 13:12 broken. 13:13 --Yes. 13:14 --They ceased to believe in God that's pretty broad language. 13:18 They ceased to trust God on the premise of now seeing God 13:23 differently. 13:24 --And God's whole purpose was to restore that trust. 13:26 --That's a good definition of sin. 13:27 What is sin in the context of everything you just said? 13:30 Sin is when trust in God is broken. 13:33 --That's right. 13:34 --Everything that's not of faith Romans says sin. 13:36 --Romans 14. 13:37 --Over said that many times before that sin is a form of 13:40 insanity because it's distrusting a being that has 13:44 never given us a reason to distrust Him. 13:46 --I like that. 13:47 --But I like what you're saying there that righteousness by 13:49 faith even though it's not what it would later come to be faith 13:52 in the death of Jesus on our behalf etc. But it is a right 13:56 standing with God by belief in His character and person. 14:01 --Yeah. 14:02 --As long as they believed hey when I tell you you can eat of 14:06 all these trees but just not this one. 14:07 He has their best interest in mind that they assume the best 14:10 about His character all is good. 14:12 --Right. 14:13 --So the sin problem then is not merely or immediately a 14:18 behavioral problem. 14:19 --No hardly it's a psychological --It's a psychological 14:22 testimony. 14:23 -Prpblem 14:24 --Yeah. 14:25 --That's right. 14:26 --There's a distortion that has occurred in their thinking about 14:28 God, which then gives rise to the outward behavioral 14:32 disobedience or rebellion part of the whole. 14:35 --That's just the. 14:36 --The outward I'm so glad that we're going down this road here 14:39 because I've been saying a lot in my preaching this last year 14:42 that for many people the sin problem is like spilled milk. 14:45 Like if I spilled this water right here, which I won't 14:48 because we have electronics. 14:49 But if you spilled that water right there there would be a 14:50 very simple solution. 14:51 You'd wipe it up. 14:52 --Yeah. 14:53 --So for many people the sin problem is just like that it's 14:55 spilled milk, it's spilled water, it's a drink. 14:57 Ok it's spilled oh wipe it up as if that's the sin thing. 15:00 Oh you're doing that? 15:02 Stop doing that now. 15:03 Ok now we're all good. 15:04 All is well. 15:05 But if the sin problem is emotional and it's about trust 15:10 and it's about a relationship and it's psychological that 15:13 can't just be restored by wiping it up. 15:14 Only by trust is trust restored. 15:17 Only by learning there's a depth here that we sometimes. 15:21 --I think in my mind what has always been helpful is sin is 15:25 not merely an act. 15:27 Sin is a condition. 15:29 --Of course. 15:30 Right. 15:31 --And God wants to get to the source. 15:32 --Because in the context of righteousness by faith it's very 15:34 easy then to try to find a solution by doing the right 15:38 thing. 15:39 If sin and righteousness is just a matter of doing something. 15:44 But what if it's a condition? 15:47 --Yeah yeah yeah. 15:48 --If it's a condition then the option of me doing it's not even 15:53 on the table. 15:54 It's a condition. 15:55 --Yeah I was preaching my heart out on this kind of thinking a 15:59 number of years back. 16:00 --I know it. 16:02 --God you know this. 16:03 --I know the story. 16:04 --I've shared this before [Cross talking] 16:05 This guy stood up in the congregation. 16:10 --While you're preaching. 16:11 --While I'm preaching and interrupted and he said he said 16:14 there is a problem and there is a solution and you are not 16:17 defining the problem and you are not giving the solution. 16:21 So what are you going to do? 16:23 So I said hey the floor is yours tell us what is the problem what 16:27 is the solution? 16:29 And with all dead seriousness he said the problem is sin and the 16:33 solution is you need to quit it. 16:37 That's it. 16:38 --Yeah. 16:39 --That's 16:40 --The End. 16:41 Goodnight everyone thank you for coming. 16:42 --Let us go to prayer. 16:43 --The spilled water. 16:44 --Just wipe it up. 16:46 --The water is spilled clean it up. 16:47 --So now when you go to Genesis 3 right to Genesis 3 we've 16:49 talked just a little bit about Genesis 1 and 2 when you go to 16:51 Genesis 3 we talked about this in our first program The Big 16:55 Picture, our first series. 16:56 --Yeah. 16:57 --But you basically have, you know, Satan says, Lucifer here 17:00 says did God really say you can't eat of every tree? 17:03 ie big restriction, God's restricting. 17:06 Number 2 you will not surely die. 17:09 God is not trustworthy. 17:10 Number 3 God knows that in the day that you eat of this you'll 17:13 be like God you know God's knowing good and evil. 17:15 He's trying to keep you down so 1, 2, 3 it's sequential and it's 17:19 linear. 17:20 He's leading her here so he can lead her here so he can finally 17:22 get to his point which is what kind of a person is God? 17:25 Now here's my point. 17:26 The eating of the fruit comes at the end of all of that. 17:29 --That's right. 17:30 --Not the beginning. 17:31 So once you've taken the hard drive out of a good God, a 17:34 creator God, a clever God, a sovereign God, a gracious God 17:37 you set that over here. 17:38 And then you insert well God is really like this and reality is 17:41 like this. 17:42 Now this is that's inevitable. 17:45 --So he didn't have to twist her arm. 17:46 --It's inevitable not only did he not 17:49 --He twisted her mind. 17:50 --He twisted her mind. 17:51 --Yes. 17:52 --It's if we sin follows a wrong picture of God. 17:55 If we are thinking wrong about God sin is not an option. 17:58 It's an inevitability. 17:59 --Right. 18:00 --It is. 18:01 --If you're going to rebel against a God who you see as 18:04 being against you. 18:05 --Of course. 18:06 --You're going to want to survive. 18:07 And that's what Eve wanted to do she wanted to survive. 18:09 --Good point. 18:10 --She had to eat because she wanted to become wise. 18:13 She wanted to become like God. 18:14 She wanted to be able to survive against this being that was 18:17 really out for his own good that was really a liar and couldn't 18:19 be trusted. 18:20 And that's what the world wants today. 18:21 If God has been lying they need to survive. 18:23 How are we going to survive? 18:25 We've got to eat of the tree of the knowledge for good and evil. 18:27 --It's a much bigger mess than what people think then. 18:30 [Crosstalk] 18:33 One guy in Van Couver told me if I was, I think I mentioned 18:36 this earlier, if I were God I would shoot the Devil dead 18:40 tonight. 18:41 Problem solved. 18:42 --You wish. 18:43 --Yeah the problem is that God's biggest problem is between our 18:48 ears. 18:49 So it's this messed up concept of who God is. 18:52 --And this is so powerful because when you think about 18:54 Martin Luther he was being honest with the reality of what 18:57 he knew in here. 18:59 He knew all that outward stuff wasn't solving the problem that 19:02 he felt right here. 19:03 And I think hundreds if not thousands of people today 19:05 especially young people today are realizing the same thing. 19:08 They're looking at Christianity as we define it they're looking 19:12 at the problems we define and they're saying wait a minute. 19:13 --Now do you mean as we or as often defined. 19:15 --As often defined. 19:16 --Ok I gotcha. 19:17 --They're saying wait a minute. 19:18 I've done that. 19:19 I've tired that. 19:20 But there's still something in here that isn't changing. 19:22 There's something in here that isn't changing and because we're 19:26 refusing to identify that as part of the sin problem they're 19:30 just tossing the whole thing. 19:31 --K guys we need to take a break because we're obligated to take 19:35 a break. 19:36 And then, wow, this is good stuff. 19:37 We'll come back and we'll just continue through the story in 19:39 Genesis. 19:41 --Perfect. 19:42 --Sounds good. 19:43 Hi I'm Ty Gibson welcome to digma.com. 19:46 I am so excited about this website because you're about to 19:50 discover a powerful new way to share life transforming messages 19:54 and videos with your family, friends and anybody else on the 19:58 planet who has access to a computer. 20:01 Digma is a Greek word it basically means to show or to 20:05 reveal something by means of a pattern or an example of some 20:08 kind. 20:10 It's the second half of the word paradigma from which we get the 20:13 English word paradigm as in paradigm shift. 20:18 And so what you're going to find at digma.com is a growing 20:21 library of short videos and transcripts dealing with 20:24 paradigms and fundamental questions. 20:26 What's the meaning of life? 20:29 What is our origin and destiny as human beings? 20:33 What happens when we die? 20:35 Does God exist or are we alone in this vast universe? 20:39 Why is there so much evil and suffering in our world? 20:44 An estimated 70% of American's have a computer right in their 20:49 home and stay in touch with family and friends by email. 20:52 And more than 400 million people are active on Facebook and 5 20:58 million new users are signing up every week. 21:02 We are literally in the midst of a communications revolution of 21:07 massive proportion. 21:09 This is granting the gospel direct and easy access to 21:14 millions upon millions of homes and hearts. 21:17 And that's what digma.com is all about. 21:22 It's a tool for leading our family and friends on an 21:25 exciting paradigm shift by revealing the truth of God's 21:29 creative power and his incredibly beautiful character 21:34 in contrast to our world's popular misconceptions about who 21:40 God is. 21:41 [Music] 21:58 [Music] 22:03 Alright so in the first segment of this second conversation 22:08 we're having we were kind of recovering some of the stuff we 22:10 talked about in session one actually. 22:13 But it's good because we added some additional emphasis. 22:15 Let's just get right into what's happening post fall. 22:19 After Genesis chapter 3 the first 5, 10, 15 verses. 22:24 What's going on there with the human race as we come to Cain 22:30 and Able? 22:31 I mean what's the gist of that story? 22:33 The Cain and Able story? 22:34 --The Cain and Able story or the Genesis 3 story? 22:36 --Well we did Genesis 3. 22:38 --Got it ok. 22:39 --We can go back there if you want. 22:40 --No no I just was unclear on the story. 22:41 --But what's happening now post fall, after the fall of mankind 22:45 we have chapter 4 now and the story of Cain and Able. 22:50 What's going on here? 22:52 --Well you got a brother killing his brother. 22:55 --Why though? 22:57 --Well because he's jealous. 22:58 --I mean why what's prompting murder? 22:59 --I would say because he's jealous. 23:02 He is upset that God has respected the offering of his 23:07 brother. 23:08 They have a, ok they have a different way of relating to 23:11 God. 23:12 One has brought his fruits and vegetables and all of that kind 23:15 of stuff and the other has brought his lamb. 23:17 God asked for a lamb. 23:18 God has respect for the offering of Able. 23:22 He does not respect the offering of Cain. 23:24 There's significant crystal logical reasons for that we 23:28 will get into that. 23:29 But in answer the simple answer to your question is he was upset 23:32 that God seemed to be favoring his brother. 23:36 --We could say there's 2 sacrifices. 23:38 --Ok. 23:39 --You could summarize the story with 2 sacrifices. 23:41 One sacrifice is the product of the mans own doing and the other 23:48 sacrifice is symbolic of God's doing. 23:51 --Oh I love it. 23:52 --One symbolizes what I do. 23:53 The other is a symbol of what God does. 23:56 --So that's not just being picky. 23:58 He's not just being a micromanaging control freak 24:01 here. 24:02 He's not saying hey I wanted something else and so I'm 24:04 against there's something theological here. 24:07 --This is the essence of righteousness by faith and 24:09 righteousness by works. 24:10 --Yes it is. 24:12 --We've used those theological terms and now we're bringing 24:15 them down. 24:16 We're just bringing them down to practical actions. 24:17 And the practical actions of those 2 terms is trusting in the 24:22 sacrifice that God provides which is Abel bringing the lamb 24:25 which symbolizes or represents what God provides. 24:29 It symbolizes or represents Jesus which God will provide as 24:32 we didn't read the verses but as we look at the promises in 24:35 Genesis 3:15. 24:36 And then Cain who comes with the sacrifices that were created by 24:41 his own work, by his own hands. 24:43 Trusting in what he can do to appease or to offer sacrifices. 24:50 --And it's so interesting that when Cain realizes that his 24:54 sacrifice is basically a nonsacrifice. 24:57 It's just a reflection of himself. 25:00 He gets angry that it doesn't fit in with God's picture of 25:04 reality. 25:05 So he gets angry that his version of who God is and what 25:08 God wants doesn't fit in with his own. 25:12 --Which by the way and I know we don't have a lot of time to 25:15 spend on this but I think it's really important for us to 25:17 recognize this, which by the way is another determining 25:21 revelation of the one religion verses the other. 25:25 When you look at religion almost every religion that is not based 25:29 on the Christianity of the Bible or should I just say the 25:32 biblical version of religion is a persecuting religion in some 25:37 form or another. 25:38 It's a religion that will generate persecution will 25:40 generate hate. 25:41 And the one distinguishing fact that Jimmy Carter once said this 25:44 he said the religion of Jesus Christ never persecuted anyone. 25:49 Think about that. 25:51 --I just took a picture of a bumper sticker the other day 25:52 that said who would Jesus bomb? 25:54 -Bomb? 25:56 --Bomb. 25:57 --Who would Jesus drop a bomb on? 25:58 --Yes. 25:59 --Yeah that was the question. 26:00 --You would follow quickly with people who have misrepresented 26:02 the religion of Jesus have bombed plenty of folk. 26:05 --Yeah there's been a lot of blood shed down through history 26:07 in the name of Christ and Christianity. 26:09 --But not in the character. 26:11 --And you would also have to follow that with what about the 26:13 Old Testament? 26:14 What about the Old Testament picture of God? 26:15 What about the war it said takes place in the Old Testament? 26:18 And so here we are looking at the Old Testament even and 26:22 Christianity in general with eyes with glasses that again are 26:27 not understanding the character of God the heart of God. 26:30 And that's what we've gotta unpack. 26:31 --I gotta ask a question. 26:33 We're being very theological here which I think is great. 26:35 But can anyone help with a textural reason in Genesis 4 as 26:41 to why God refused the offering of Cain. 26:44 --The best I can do and I've thought about it. 26:46 --The text doesn't say. 26:48 Even my answer way theological. 26:50 --Well but look at I don't know if this helps at all but in the 26:54 context of chapter 3 when Adam and Eve sinned based on a 26:59 Misconception of God's character in chapter 3 verse 7 they make 27:03 themselves coverings, right? 27:06 They hide themselves from God and they're afraid of God. 27:10 That's in verses 8 and 9 ok. 27:13 Then God responds by telling them in chapter 3 verse 15 that 27:19 it's going to take suffering on His part, a divine intervention 27:24 that will involve sacrifice on His part in order to undo the 27:29 sin problem to save them. 27:31 --Or on the part of the deliverer. 27:33 --Yeah on the part of the deliverer. 27:34 --Gotcha. 27:36 --And then in chapter 3 verse 21 we have God putting skins on 27:43 them, which implies that there's something going on. 27:45 Death has occurred a sacrifice has been made which is a 27:48 replacement for the coverings that they generated which is 27:51 vegetation. 27:52 You have no suffering indicated here no sacrifice indicated 27:56 here. 27:57 So all of this back-story you come then to Cain and Able and 28:02 what does Cain do? 28:04 He brings a bloodless sacrifice or offering we should say. 28:11 --An offering of the fruit of the ground. 28:13 --Yeah that involves no suffering that involves no 28:15 sacrifice that is a denial of what God has been trying to say 28:21 in implementing the sacrificial system. 28:23 But then Able follows through and indicates that he 28:27 understands that God will be the sufferer. 28:31 God will be the one who makes the sacrifice in the salvation 28:35 equation. 28:37 --Yeah that's exactly no listen that is the answer that I was 28:40 hoping you'd get. 28:41 --So flush that out. 28:42 --Because I said that in a very long drawn out way because I'm 28:44 thinking it through myself. 28:46 --It's in the context of the story. 28:47 --It is but it's another aspect to that I think that's really 28:50 crucial. 28:51 I think that is the vital foundation. 28:52 We move into the story and here's what God says that I 28:55 think is really interesting. 28:56 In the context of the verses when you were trying to get the 28:58 context out of here. 28:59 God comes to him, as the sacrifice is not accepted let's 29:03 just read the verses here. 29:05 Genesis 4 verse 5 but unto Cain and his offering He, God had not 29:11 respect and Cain was very wrathful angry and his 29:13 countenance fell and the Lord said unto him in verse 6 unto 29:17 Cain why are you angry and why is your countenance fallen? 29:21 If you do well it shall be accepted. 29:24 Now here's something I think is really interesting God is saying 29:27 if what you did was good if what you did was right if what 29:31 you did was you were thinking the right way then you 29:36 you're going to be accepted. 29:39 But if not sin lies at your door. 29:42 And it's it. 29:43 It's as if God is saying to Cain if what you did was not good 29:47 then the actions that are about to be revealed 29:51 in your life are going to demonstrate that to you. 29:53 --They're going to reflect your theology. 29:55 --Yes. 29:56 You the way you've approached me is going to be reflected now and 29:59 the actions right outside your door. 30:01 And those actions are going to be revealed right now to you 30:06 whether or not you approach me in the right way. 30:07 --So if you approach God on the premise of Him being faithful to 30:14 sacrifice for us then there's not going to be anything in your 30:20 belief system that would lead to hatred or anger or persecution 30:24 of others. 30:25 But if you have a picture of God where he demands appeasement and 30:29 you are to manufacture an offering in order to ameliorate 30:34 the situation then you're going to have the seeds of anger and 30:38 persecution in your belief system. 30:40 --Basically reflect your version of God. 30:42 --Yeah. 30:44 --As we were talking earlier if you were actually trusting in 30:46 yourself and you think there's some goodness in yourself that 30:49 could produce something that connection with God in this way 30:52 as soon as that is questioned as soon as that those works are 30:57 questioned you're going to have a hard time with that. 30:59 That's going to bother you. 31:01 In other words when we understand the total depravity 31:03 of ourselves nothings going to bother because our whole trust 31:06 is in that sacrifice. 31:07 --Yeah yeah. 31:08 --Cain was bothered because now he himself personally. 31:12 --He feels rejected. 31:13 --He feels rejected. 31:14 --Check this out you guys when you come to the New Testament 31:17 what you have here is Cain commits an act of murder. 31:20 Cain kills Able ok. 31:23 Jesus explained that in a religious context, which is the 31:27 Cain and Able story is. 31:28 --That's right. 31:30 --Jesus explained in John 16 verses 1 through about 3 these 31:34 things I have spoken to you that you should not be made to 31:37 stumble they will put you out of the synagogues. 31:40 Yes the time is coming when those who kill you, the one who 31:44 kills you will think that he's doing offers God's service and 31:48 verse 3 these things they will do to you because they have not 31:51 known me nor my father. 31:54 --Whoa. 31:55 --So the premise of murder in a religious context the premise of 32:00 persecution within religious systems is that we don't know 32:06 God as He really is. 32:08 If we knew God as He really is we could never perform acts of 32:12 violence in His name. 32:13 --Ah that's a great line. 32:15 If we knew God as He really is we could never perform acts of 32:19 violence in His name. 32:20 --That's right. 32:21 --I love the idea. 32:22 --So you answered my you go ahead. 32:23 --No I just love the idea that Genesis 4 Cain and Abel's 32:27 they're both religious. 32:28 They're both approaching God. 32:30 --That's what we said there's 2 religions right? 32:33 So I just want to summarize Ty the thing you said because I 32:36 think you hit the nail exactly on the head and that is that 32:40 what's taking place in Genesis 4 makes sense only in light of 2 32:44 major things that are coming out of Genesis 3 that the deliverer 32:48 himself would be wounded to death. 32:50 You get bitten by a viper and you're gonna die. 32:52 And that God made them coats of skins. 32:55 So before we're in Genesis 1, 2 and 3 we're not in Matthew, 32:58 Mark, Luke, John. 33:00 We're not in the Old Testament we already know that some 33:02 woundedness will befall the deliverer. 33:05 Ok then we go to Genesis 4 and we have this 2 offerings and I 33:11 think you're exactly correct. 33:12 we can only makes sense of why does God care this is you know 33:15 wheat and barley, mangos and apples and this is a lamb. 33:17 Why? 33:18 What's the big deal? 33:19 Because this does not in any way communicate the sacrificial 33:24 self-sacrificing nature of God himself. 33:27 This is generated by Cain. 33:29 This is Abel's confidence that God will generate the coverings. 33:34 --So it's faith, confidence. 33:35 --It's confidence. 33:37 --Trust. 33:38 --In God's faithfulness. 33:39 --Yeah. 33:40 --Oh I just had an idea. 33:41 Don't lose that thought. 33:42 --I won't. 33:43 --The thought that came to me just a moment ago was that how 33:44 ironic is it that Cain is willing to slay his brother but 33:51 not a lamb. 33:52 --Wow. 33:53 --He won't slay a lamb. 33:54 But he'll slay his brother. 33:56 --That is amazing. 33:57 --Again it's self-revelation. 33:59 God is saying I want to reveal the direction that this leads to 34:03 what it ultimately leads you too you think that you wouldn't slay 34:06 a lamb. 34:07 [Crosstalk] 34:09 And yet and here's the bottom-line. 34:12 So God investigates. 34:14 God comes to Cain and he says hey where's Able? 34:17 And what does Cain say? 34:20 --Am I my brother's keeper? 34:21 --Righteousness by faith in other words God is our brothers 34:25 keeper and that is passed on to us. 34:29 The love of God what we see in the right doing of the 34:32 righteousness of God the love of God comes into our hearts. 34:35 And we become our brother's keeper. 34:36 We take care of one another and Cain's self righteousness not 34:41 only leads to persecution in killing his brother. 34:44 He, I'm not my brother's keeper. 34:46 --Ok so out of Eden comes these 2 there's a fork in the road. 34:51 --Yeah. 34:52 --There's 2 ways of thinking 2 ideologies 2 theologies 2 ways 34:57 of looking at God 2 ways therefore of looking at 34:59 ourselves. 35:00 And 2 different ways diametrically opposed ways of 35:03 looking at the human relationship with God. 35:06 Genesis chapter 4 then gives way to what? 35:10 How does the story continue to unfold in Genesis? 35:13 --Well I think it's really powerful here is that Cain begs 35:16 not to be killed. 35:17 He's a killer but he begs he believes he's gonna be killed so 35:21 God protects him. 35:22 God puts a mark on him. 35:23 God says no and that is again a manifestation of the character 35:27 to the love the mercy the grace of God. 35:29 Even though God of course sees that leading to a whole earth 35:33 filled with violence. 35:35 Because he knows the deprivation the seed of Cain's 35:41 self-righteousness is going to lead to a world of violence. 35:44 --Are you planning to now? 35:46 --Hey my mind's all the way in Genesis 10 and 11 but if you 35:51 guys want to do something before 10 and 11. 35:53 --I want to say one more thing about Cain and Able. 35:55 --Go ahead. 35:56 --I was just gonna say that Jesus attaches the very same 35:58 kind of religious significance that you were talking about 36:00 where were you at Matthew 16. 36:02 Where was that verse you quoted for us? 36:03 --John 16. 36:04 --John 16 it's interesting that in Luke 11 Jesus says I'll read 36:08 in verse 49 Jesus speaking therefore the wisdom of God also 36:11 said I will send them prophets and apostles. 36:13 Some of them they will kill and persecute that the blood of all 36:16 the prophets which were shed from the foundation of the world 36:19 may be required of this generation; 51 from the blood of 36:22 Able the son of Zachariah to the from the blood of Able to the 36:27 blood of Zachariah who perished between the altar and the 36:29 temple. 36:30 Yes I say to you it will be required of this generation. 36:32 Ok here's my point Jesus attaches religious persecution 36:36 significance. 36:37 The significance of religious persecution to the experience of 36:39 Able. 36:40 It wasn't just an anger issue like I'm upset with my brother 36:43 because it was...Jesus attaches religious significance to it. 36:47 He's like this is persecution of the prophets and of course the 36:50 prophets came to show us who and what God was. 36:52 --Right. 36:53 --And of course then you get you know in the book of Hebrews the 36:56 author of Hebrews says that Cain's sacrifice was or Abel's 36:59 sacrifice was more excellent. 37:01 --Yeah. 37:02 --So my point here is just that it's fascinating that Jesus 37:04 himself, we're not just looking like you know scratching you 37:08 know and pulling at straws here to try and find something that 37:10 the text doesn't say. 37:11 Jesus himself attaches religious significance and persecution to 37:15 what's going on here. 37:16 So it was the idea of 2 streams one persecuting the other. 37:19 --Yeah persecution necessarily arises out of the misconception 37:23 of God's character. 37:24 --As does sin. 37:25 -Yeah. 37:26 --That was the thing we said in Genesis 3 sin follows the false 37:27 picture of God. 37:28 And then Genesis 4 murder persecution follows a false 37:32 picture of God. 37:33 --Let's piggyback on that too before we skip over it. 37:36 I just touch on the story of Noah just a little bit. 37:38 I think also we also we don't want to completely eliminate the 37:42 exercise of faith by Able because even though we can 37:44 explain why in Genesis 3 and Genesis 4 we also want to 37:47 recognize this element of faith that even Adam and Eve had 37:50 before the fall. 37:51 Exercise toward God and trusting God rather than trusting 37:55 ourselves. 37:56 Noah has that same element. 37:57 He is told as the world is filled with violence that he 38:02 needs to build an ark, a ship. 38:04 Why? 38:05 Because there's gonna be a flood. 38:06 I mean think about that just think about that for a minute. 38:09 You're building a ship. 38:10 --Only one-way you do that. 38:12 --You're building a ship that's big enough to hold all these 38:15 animals and whoever else because the whole world is going to be 38:19 sunk in a flood. 38:20 And for 120 years you're telling people about this, year after 38:24 year, month after month you're telling people there's a flood 38:26 coming there's a flood coming. 38:27 So there's this exercise of faith that Noah has also faith 38:30 in God and what God says verses what the rest of 38:33 the world is telling you which is the same principle that 38:36 you're looking at I think all the way through the story. 38:38 In other words God is restoring us to Genesis where we trust him 38:41 over everything else. 38:42 Satan is infiltrating all of the way the world thinks the 38:47 philosophy of the word the customs everything. 38:50 And getting us not to believe what God says. 38:52 And generation after generation you have people individuals who 38:57 trust who have to trust by faith in what God says over what 39:00 everything the world tells them. 39:01 --Yeah yeah. 39:02 We have to take another break. 39:05 Those are great thoughts and Genesis is so rich you just want 39:08 to pause and look at every single story. 39:11 I don't know where we're going to go from here but I really 39:13 have an interest in beginning to flush out the contrast between 39:20 the tower of Babel experience and this guy called Abraham. 39:24 So we'll just start doing that right after the break. 39:28 Digma videos are short engaging messages designed for opening up 39:32 discussion with individuals and groups regarding the character 39:35 of God. 39:36 As well as for your own personal spiritual growth. 39:38 For your free DVDample collection of Digma videos call 39:42 877-585-1111. 39:46 Or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Rd., Jasper, OR 39:51 97438. 39:53 Once again for your free DVD sample collection of Digma 39:57 videos call 877-585-1111. 40:02 Or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Rd., Jasper, OR 40:07 97438. 40:09 Simply ask for Digma DVD 1. 40:12 So there we are in Genesis 1 through what 6? 40:16 We came right through Noah and we're definitely giving a 40:18 sketch. 40:19 We are not going into details. 40:20 And that's intentional. 40:23 We want to see what's taking place what the principle's are 40:27 that are at play in the unfolding narrative of scripture 40:32 here. 40:34 So when we come to the period after the flood and we come into 40:38 chapters 10 and 11 there is an empire that's being built on the 40:43 premise of the false conception of the character of God and it's 40:47 called Babylon. 40:49 You have this guy in chapter 10 named Nimrod who's brought to 40:52 you first of all in verse 8 and Nimrod is a name names have 40:57 significance in scripture. 40:58 The name Nimrod just means rebellious or rebel. 41:01 And so we have somebody here who is now going to systematizes and 41:08 incorporate the false picture of God in a system. 41:12 --Yeah it says he began to be a mighty one on the earth. 41:16 And it says that he was going to build what it's saying in verse 41:21 10 of chapter 10 a kingdom. 41:23 --The beginning of his kingdom was Babel. 41:25 --Ok so we've got an empire that's being built here. 41:28 --Or Babylon. 41:29 --On the premise of the false picture of God. 41:31 This is significant because as we move forward and of course 41:34 we'll come back. 41:35 As we move forward in the biblical story all the way to 41:39 the book of Revelation we have corporate powers. 41:44 We have state powers and religious powers that are 41:46 corporate conglomerates of people in nations and religious 41:51 systems that are acting out the picture of God that was 41:58 initiated by the fall. 41:59 --And just a quick little picture of what Babel this Babel 42:04 this kingdom if you look at Daniel 4 in verse 30 later on in 42:08 the biblical narrative and in the history there's a king here 42:11 that's the king of Babylon and he says in Daniel 4:30 is not 42:16 this great Babylon that I have built for a royal dwelling by my 42:21 mighty power and for the honor of my majesty. 42:24 So it becomes now a symbol of what I do. 42:28 --Self-exultation. 42:30 --Yeah what man does and then they build this tower and you 42:34 know interestingly immediately following this flood that God 42:38 initiates, now they build this tower. 42:41 There's a message there obviously there's a message that 42:44 they're sending to God. 42:45 --Well let me ask the question this way what's the psychology 42:47 behind the building of the tower of Babel? 42:49 What's going on in the minds of the people who are 42:55 --verse 4 42:56 --doing this? 42:57 --Genesis 11 verse 4 and they said go to let us build a city 42:59 and a tower whose top may reach unto heaven and let us make a 43:04 name that we 43:05 --for ourselves. 43:06 --In case we're scattered abroad upon the face of the whole 43:08 earth. 43:09 In case another flood comes we need to build a tower that 43:10 reaches to heaven so that we can save ourselves and also 43:13 --build a name. 43:14 [Crosstalk] 43:16 --Does King James say there in 4 a name for ourselves? 43:19 Let us make a name for ourselves? 43:21 --Let us make a name let us make us a name us make us a name. 43:25 --Ok yeah in the New King James most modern translations just 43:28 let us make a name for ourselves just let us make us a name. 43:33 Well that's kind of a clever way of saying that. 43:34 But the idea here. 43:36 --King James is very clever in translation. 43:38 [Laughter] 43:41 Some people can't even understand it. 43:43 --In answer to your question it is patently self-centered. 43:45 --Yeah that's right. 43:46 --That was your question. 43:47 --My question was what's the psychology behind the building 43:50 of the tower of Babel. 43:51 --We're going to make a name for ourselves. 43:52 --Yes. 43:53 -It's self-exultation and self-preservation. 43:55 --Oh you gotta put those 2 down self-exultation and 43:58 self-preservation. 44:00 And the name Nimrod itself I loved when you said names have 44:03 significance in the bible. 44:04 The name means rebel or rebellion. 44:06 Presupposes that God is the kind of God that you should want to 44:11 rebel against. 44:12 --Yeah. 44:13 --He's building an empire based on the false picture of God 44:18 initiated in Genesis 3 alright. 44:21 --And we've gotta say here again this is not just something that 44:23 David and Ty and James and Jeffery are just extracting from 44:26 the text. 44:27 This is where the whole scriptural narrative goes and it 44:30 takes Babylon this is the language. 44:33 They start using Babylon as this very thing. 44:35 You get to Daniel 4 which you did and then you get to 44:37 Revelation and it's this monolithic man made man centered 44:42 self exultation self preservation system. 44:45 So this isn't just something hey that's kind of an interesting 44:47 thing look at the name of Nimrod and they made a name for 44:48 themselves. 44:50 That's the point that scripture itself is going to make. 44:52 --I think there's something also very significant here and that 44:55 is this we want to paint this in the context of the character of 44:59 God because anyone reading this could say well wait a minute you 45:02 know it says right here in verse 6 the Lord said unto you know 45:07 them behold the people as one and they have all one language. 45:10 And this they began to do now there's nothing that can be 45:14 restrained from them, which they have imagine. 45:15 In other words they can do anything when they band 45:18 together. 45:19 And we don't want them to do anything. 45:20 If you look at that in the eyes of Satan it's the same thing 45:23 Satan is saying. 45:24 Oh you'll be as God's and you can accomplish anything. 45:25 So God says let's go down and confound the language. 45:28 And the whole idea you can get from this if you're looking at 45:30 it through Satan's eyes is God wants to withhold us from doing 45:35 anything that we can imagine. 45:36 But here's what's really powerful you move into the story 45:39 of Abraham which is a contrast to this and God says in Genesis 45:43 chapter 12 and I'm just gonna jump here for a second. 45:46 I'm sure we're going to attack this in a minute. 45:49 God says to Abraham I will make of thee a great nation and I 45:53 will bless thee and make thy name great and thou shalt be a 45:58 blessing. 45:59 The big difference between Babylon and Abraham between the 46:02 God of scripture and the way God is painted is not that god 46:05 doesn't want us to be blessed and be great and be great in the 46:09 earth. 46:10 But He wants us to do it in the context of being a blessing to 46:12 others rather than in the context of making a name for 46:15 ourselves. 46:16 --Yeah amen. 46:17 --Great point. 46:18 --Amen amen. 46:19 --There's that wisdom. 46:21 --So we said that words have significant well names. 46:23 Nimrod means rebel and we've got the Tower of Babel. 46:27 Babel means confusion and of course in the immediate context 46:31 of the story the word refers to the confusing of the languages. 46:36 But that takes on significance as the story unfolds in 46:40 scripture so that the Babylon of the book of Revelation in the 46:44 New Testament isn't merely the confusion of languages it's 46:49 confusion regarding the character of God. 46:51 It's religious. 46:53 It's theological. 46:54 --It's ideological. 46:55 --Ideological confusion. 46:56 There's a fog that has settled upon the character of God and 47:02 human beings are doing the only thing they can do in the light 47:07 of the fact that they're deceived regarding God and that 47:10 is to live for themselves to exalt themselves to preserve 47:14 themselves because God is not perceived as a Savior. 47:19 You can't trust him. 47:21 He's not looking out for your best interest because He's not 47:26 going to do it. 47:27 --Isn't that interesting? 47:29 I think it's interesting that in that context you have language 47:34 being a symbol of right religious thinking and wrong 47:38 religious thinking. 47:39 --So you have people naming their children or having names 47:43 that God later changes when they have a different theological 47:46 understanding of who God is. 47:48 So the confusion of the languages in the Old Testament 47:51 also has this theological relationship to God and 47:56 righteousness by faith. 47:57 --Yeah which takes us to chapter 12. 47:59 Are you in chapter 12? 48:01 --I'm in 12 the point that you brought out Ty that I loved 48:02 there was that they're deceived. 48:05 That's the point. 48:06 I've said this to you I think recently Ty and maybe to you 48:09 Jeffrey as well I don't know if you've heard me say it James but 48:11 I read a paper recently by Dr. Richard Davidson in which he 48:13 basically says that all of scripture is a commentary on 48:18 Genesis chapters 1 to 3. 48:20 So basically Genesis 1, 2 and 3 is the point and then everything 48:24 after that is largely commentary on the themes that are already. 48:28 --I just watched a video a Pastor/Preacher just did a video 48:31 same point. 48:33 That very point so here we are how are these guys, Cain and 48:36 Able. 48:38 Cain related to God in the way that Adam and Eve related to God 48:40 here relating to the way relating to the way relating to 48:42 the way. 48:44 And when we get to the New Testament. 48:45 --Lineage they're passing the seed down. 48:46 --Exactly. 48:47 When we get to the New Testament Paul says in what is it 2 48:49 Corinthians 4 he says that the God of this world blinded their 48:54 minds. 48:55 So we're just singing the same song. 48:57 --Yeah it's like Genesis are the roots. 48:59 --Have changed but the lyrics have not changed. 49:01 Genesis you know when you have a seed plant it goes root it goes 49:04 down first then it goes up. 49:05 Genesis are the roots. 49:06 That's what this program is called. 49:07 It's called roots. 49:08 Genesis is the roots and out of those roots comes this whole New 49:11 Testament rest of the Old Testament New Testament. 49:13 It all goes back down to those roots. 49:16 --I think that at this point you already jumped the gun and you 49:20 beat me to Genesis 12. 49:21 But I think it would be really powerful if we can just talk 49:26 about the call of Abraham as a response to this warped picture 49:34 of God in Genesis chapter 11. 49:35 I think you said just by virtue of the fact that they're 49:38 rebelling against God you said this. 49:39 It assumes that God is the type of God that we should that we 49:45 would even want to rebel against which automatically tells you. 49:49 --That's not the God of scripture. 49:50 --They're rebelling against a God but it's not the God of 49:52 scripture. 49:53 --It's the God of their imagination. 49:54 --The God they're rebelling against doesn't even exist as 49:57 far as the Bible is concerned. 49:58 --It's the one that Satan has painted. 49:59 --Well the God yeah the God they're rebelling against is the 50:03 Devil masquerading as God. 50:05 --Yeah so now so now with that backdrop Abraham is called. 50:12 It's so powerful because you have this big problem chapter 11 50:15 closes and God doesn't throw us a solution on the table like ok 50:20 so God what are you going to do? 50:21 --Right. 50:22 --And then it's almost like the scene the camera changes and now 50:25 it shifts to this dude named Abram whoever he is. 50:29 --Abram. 50:30 --And God is calling him out, right? 50:34 Of this situation of this mess of this chaos. 50:37 --I'm glad you said it that way calling him out of this 50:40 situation this mess this chaos. 50:42 Because it's not God's not just coming to Abraham and saying hey 50:45 I've got a better neighborhood for you to live in. 50:47 --It's not the geography. 50:48 We're talking He is about to embark on an ideological. 50:54 --Theological, psychological, emotional. 50:56 --All of that all get called whatever everyone you can think 51:01 of on a journey right? 51:02 He's going on a journey but what I think is really powerful here 51:06 is that and this is to jump way ahead of ourselves He calls him 51:11 out, out of his fathers house, out of his nation, out of his 51:14 and the powerful thing is here you have an embryo everything 51:20 that represents this thing we call the church because the 51:23 church that word is ecclesia which means the called out ones. 51:27 So right here we're going to see the seed of what will take a 51:33 great part of the Old Testament in you, the church of the Old 51:36 Testament, Israel and of the New Testament. 51:38 --Called out of religious confusion and rebellion against 51:40 a God that doesn't even exist. 51:41 --And that's God's answer to His being misrepresented. 51:45 --Well either way I don't know what hill was cause he was 75 51:48 what hill was he on when he got called? 51:50 He was 75 years old we are talking about you know over the 51:52 hill. 51:53 [Laughter] 51:54 --It's like Mariah Karma I was like ok ok. 51:56 --Check this out you guys back in chapter 11 we're told in 51:59 verses 26, 27, 28 where Abraham is from. 52:04 He just happens to be from Babylon. 52:07 --Wow. 52:08 --He's raised in Ur of the Chaldean's. 52:11 He's from Babylon. 52:12 That's his home. 52:13 That's where his root structure is. 52:14 --He went to Babylon State University. 52:16 He was educated. 52:17 --Yes. 52:18 --His culture. 52:19 --His roots are there. 52:20 Then you come to chapter 12 after you learn in chapter 11 52:23 that there's this guy named Abram who lives in Babylon you 52:27 come to chapter 12 verse 1 through 3 now the Lord said to 52:30 Abram get out. 52:31 Get out of your country from your family and from your 52:36 father's house to a land that I will show you. 52:39 I will make you a great nation and I will bless you and make 52:45 your name great and you shall be a blessing. 52:50 I will bless those who bless you. 52:52 I will curse those who curse you. 52:53 And in you will all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 52:58 Now check this out. 53:00 You're on to it here. 53:02 There's additional scripture here that tells us what he's 53:05 coming out of. 53:06 Just hold your hand right there in Genesis 12 and go over to 53:10 Joshua 24. 53:12 And this is very very explicit in telling us exactly what God 53:19 is calling Abram out of chapter 24. 53:22 --Say amen when you're there. 53:23 [Laughter] 53:25 --Chapter 24. 53:26 --Get him a pulpit. 53:27 --Of Joshua verse 2 and Joshua said to all the people thus says 53:32 the Lord God of Israel your fathers including Terah the 53:36 father of Abraham the father of Nachor dwelt on the other side 53:43 of the river in old times and they served other Gods. 53:48 That's the point. 53:50 Babylon is religion in chapter 11 and there are gods that are 53:59 being served. 54:00 There is a theological paradigm that Abraham is raised in. 54:06 So when God comes to him he's not just saying hey Abraham get 54:10 out of your geographical location to another geographical 54:14 location. 54:15 He's saying Abraham get out of the entire cultural religious 54:20 theological ideological paradigm that is part and parcel of that 54:26 worship system. 54:28 --Right. 54:29 --He's calling him out from one theology into another theology. 54:33 And theology's a word that can sound rather stoic and distant 54:38 and sterile. 54:39 When we say theology we mean picture of God. 54:42 Yeah theo is God and we're talking here picture of God. 54:46 He's calling him out of one picture of God into a new 54:49 picture of God. 54:50 So the story that unfolds I think that one way we can say 54:55 this is the story of Abraham is a series of encounters with the 55:03 one and only true God that is liberating or emancipating 55:07 Abraham from the false picture of God that was in his 55:14 upbringing in his culture. 55:16 So Abraham I'm calling you out of Babylon and now I'm going to 55:20 get Babylon out of you. 55:21 That's what's going on here in the story. 55:24 --It's good I like that. 55:25 --So there's a series of encounters that Abraham has. 55:28 The first encounter is right here we've read it. 55:30 God this God is different. 55:33 This God is saying I'm calling you out not to be an elitist 55:39 separatist person and people. 55:41 I'm calling you out to be a blessing to all the families of 55:46 the earth. 55:47 The whole world is in God's view to be positively impacted. 55:52 So this isn't the beginning of a new nation for the sake of 55:58 separation. 56:00 This is the beginning of something new for the sake of 56:02 integration for invasion if you will on the theological or 56:08 picture of God level. 56:09 I'm calling you out Abraham to send you in. 56:12 --Yep. 56:13 --This is an epic divine intervention. 56:17 I love that. 56:18 The call of Abraham is an intervention on God's behalf to 56:21 rescue human culture from just from this darkness in Genesis 56:25 11. 56:26 --You know just based on the landscape or the architecture of 56:30 the book of Genesis that what Ty was just saying is exactly the 56:33 case because to get from Genesis chapter 1 to Genesis chapter 11 56:38 you cover some 1500 to 2000 years of earths history. 56:41 I mean a huge swath of earth's history in 11 chapters. 56:46 But then as soon as you get to Genesis chapter 12 and there's 56:49 of course 50 chapters in Genesis. 56:50 That's 39 total chapters you're covering a period of say 200 56:53 years of human history. 56:55 So Moses I can just imagine. 56:57 --Puts the brakes on. 56:58 --Moses the writer of Genesis he's just he's racing he's 57:02 bringing his themes and his lines and his points. 57:04 But he's racing to get to the point. 57:06 --Wow. 57:07 --He's in a hurry to get done. 57:08 --And the point is to get to Abraham because the I want to 57:11 say 2 things on that for Moses and for the rest of scripture 57:14 the call of Abraham is the answer to the sin of Adam. 57:18 For this reason among others the garden was lost in Genesis 3. 57:25 And the first thing that he says because remember he gave him the 57:28 land. 57:30 God gave him the land and said be fruitful and multiply the 57:31 land fill it. 57:32 So when God calls Abraham he says you'll get the land back. 57:36 And you'll get descendants to fill it. 57:38 God here is saying what I tried to do in Adam didn't work. 57:42 I tried to do in Noah too by the way we didn't spend a lot of 57:44 time on that. 57:45 But he said 57:46 --Same thing. 57:47 --Same thing so he says here you're my guy. 57:49 And then Abraham for the rest of scripture both Old and New 57:51 Testaments becomes the normative figure as to how we should 57:55 understand and relate to God. 57:56 And I love what you said there a series of you said some word. 58:00 --Encounter. 58:01 --A series of encounters that are revolutionalizing not just 58:05 his idea of but for down we're living in Abrahams wake. 58:09 And Moses was intentional. 58:12 He was getting to the point. 58:14 And for him the point was the connection that God had with 58:17 Abraham and Abraham with God. 58:20 The rest of scripture just unfolds that picture. 58:22 --So the God of scripture that we encounter in Genesis is can 58:28 we say it this way is evangelistic. 58:31 Let's say it. 58:32 --Well he has a message to send. 58:33 --Let's say it less religious. 58:34 This God loves people and is pursuing people and in Abraham 58:40 he's forging out a vehicle through which the world can be 58:46 reached with the truth regarding who he really is. 58:50 --Yeah one word. 58:51 God is inclusive. 58:53 --Rather than exclusive. 58:54 --Rather that exclusive. 58:55 --There ya go. 58:57 --He is inclusive of the whole and all these religions that 58:58 have you know misunderstood him and when you have people caught 59:02 up that generation whatever that misunderstand they become 59:05 exclusive. 59:06 But God has always been one of equal. 59:08 --I like that language. 59:09 Yeah we're gonna have to pick up this discussion again. 59:14 But wow. 59:16 Abraham is quite a story and there's more here that we're 59:19 gonna flush out. 59:20 [Music] 59:30 [Music] |
Revised 2014-12-17