[Music]
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[Music]
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Table talk is just a great idea
that Martin Luther came up with.
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Quite a long time ago.
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It's not our idea we're
just doing this thing that we're
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doing at this table because
somebody's done it before us.
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I think we should remind
those who are sitting in on the
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conversation with us why we're
doing this, what it's about, and
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what that history
is with Martin Luther.
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--Well the idea with Luther
was that he would just invite
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colleagues, students.
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Friends, neighbors, travelers
over to the house and they'd sit
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down at the table, not
over a water but over a slightly
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stronger drink and they
would just talk about everything
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politics, art, literature.
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And a lot of it revolved, of
course, around scripture and God
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and Christ and God's goodness.
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And there was a lot of wisdom
that flowed from that table.
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We're hoping that some wisdom
will flow from this one as well.
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But people would comment on the
pithiness and the cleverness and
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the wisdom that Luther and
others, you know the table just
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kind of a cool
thing was happening.
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And so many of those
things were written down.
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You can actually buy the book.
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Yeah Table Talk.
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--It's called Table Talk yeah.
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And so this is a conversation
we're just 4 guys who are
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friends and our friendship
is largely censored around this
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table in exploring the
concepts and ideas of scripture.
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--Amen.
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--That's the point we did.
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--And the God of scripture.
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--And the God of scripture.
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We did our first series of
conversations; a 13 part series
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and we called in
the Big Picture Series.
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And it was well received
and so we're doing it again.
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--It was fun.
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--Yeah it was fun.
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And this one is we've titled The
Righteousness by Faith Series.
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And we all kind of don't
like the title in and of itself
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because it sounds technical
and we want the ideas to be
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accessible.
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We spent our first time
together in this 13 part series.
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--Because this is number 2 now.
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--This is number 2 yeah we
are just exploring what the term
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righteousness by faith means.
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And a lot of great
ideas came to the table.
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I thought it was interesting
to realize that righteousness by
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faith while it sounds technical
is really relational language.
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It's talking about God acting a
certain way toward fallen human
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beings in such a way to arouse
or to initiate a response from
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human beings.
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--I loved the fact, I
hadn't heard that story.
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I've heard your
testimony before.
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I've heard your testimony before
but I've never heard that story
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that you told
when you were 18 or 17?
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No 18 you wrote down the
first thing was righteousness by
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faith.
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I think that's.
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--I didn't understand any of it
and what I wrote was I mean it
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really just was my very
just the beginning ideas.
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--But even in your current form
even in it's little germ form
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the idea was implanted in
your mind by the Holy Spirit.
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That's a God thing.
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--Yeah yeah.
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So now we're moving on in this
discussion in this conversation
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from our first session,
which was titled 2 Religions.
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And we want to flush that out a
little bit more because we began
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with some pretty
complex language and ideas.
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We got a little bit wordy and
so what were we talking about in
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that first session when we
were suggesting that there are
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basically only 2 ways
of perceiving reality, God,
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ourselves in relation to God.
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2 basic
philosophies 2 basic ideologies.
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Would you be
comfortable saying it that way?
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2 theologies.
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--I think we should.
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I like it.
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I think we should recognize
because every one of us at this
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table wants to be accurate.
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You know we want
simple systems that work.
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But we also want accuracy and we
recognize that saying that there
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are only 2 religions in the
world that that can come off as
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a gross oversimplification.
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In other words we recognize the
limits of it, which is why at
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the end of that program we were
so careful to point out that
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that doesn't mean there's 2
religions; ours, which is the
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right one and yours,
which is the wrong one.
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But there are people within
various systems and even some
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people within the.
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--No system.
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--Yeah within no system or
their non-system is a system
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secularism, atheism, whatever.
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Who themselves get the
point that reality at some level
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cannot ultimately be just
about me and my universe in this
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super, you know, anthrop
centtic or me centered world.
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There's gotta be something else.
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And there are certain systems ie
biblical Christianity that lend
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themselves to a
correct understanding of that.
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But that's no sure fire
guarantee that just because
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somebody's a
Christian that they get it.
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--No because you bring
your perspectives to scripture.
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--Of Course.
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--You know you're looking at
the biblical stories through the
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lens that you bring to it
and I think that we would all be
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comfortable saying that when
we come to scripture we have
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presuppositions, we have
prejudices, we have leanings.
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And one of the things that
is kind of miraculously going on
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behind the scenes as the Holy
Spirit works our minds is He's
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kind of unscrambling
the eggs so to speak.
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We're mixed up.
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We're confused.
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We bring our confusion to
scripture in the process of the
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study of scripture is a process
by which God helps us to begin
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seeing what's actually there.
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--And it's.
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--View it with new eyes.
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--Hey that's a
good title for a book.
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And it's incremental.
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When I think about the way the
very rudimentary and simplistic
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way that I used to read
scripture verses the way that I
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now read it.
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I don't pretend that I've some
how reached Christian Maturation
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and Maturity
when I read the Bible.
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I'm reading it
for all it's worth.
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But I know that as I look back
from my present vantage point I
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became a believer 17 years ago
I think man I was very not just
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simple but simplistic and sort
of, I was looking for rules.
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I was looking I was asking
questions that were my questions
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and just looking for the
scriptural answers rather than
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coming with a mature perspective
which is ok what are scripture's
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questions and then what
are scripture's questions to
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scripture's answers?
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So anyway my point here is
just to say that that's it's a
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process.
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--Yeah yeah.
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--You don't just arrive at
Christian maturity the first
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time you open scripture.
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And I don't pretend
that any of us are here.
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I mean you've been a
believer for how many years now?
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--More than 17.
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--More than 17
how about you Jim.
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--30.
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--30 years so so
you're in the can I say?
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The twilight years of your life.
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--No I'm just kidding.
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[Laughter]
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Because you know
you're over the hill.
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[Crosstalk]
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--Discounts and
Denny's for sure.
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[Laughter]
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Here's my point.
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My point is
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I've been over several hills
so I'm just wondering which one
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you're talking about
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--The big one is the
one I'm talking about.
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[Laughter]
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Even though, I'm going to get
to my point, even though we're
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reading scripture with
more years under our belts so to
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speak we wouldn't want
to pretend as though we have
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everything figured out.
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We're on a journey.
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The people that are listening in
watching this program they might
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be a 2-year believer a 10-year
believer a 20-year believer
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they're, so we're inviting them
into this conversation to help
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you know to learn with us how
to read scripture for all it's
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worth.
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--And that's one of the reasons
we're doing it as a conversation
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because we're hoping to
model what Luther called the
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Priesthood of all
believers concept.
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And that is the idea that rather
than having the view that there
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are elite thinkers who
can tell us how to think.
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God is asking
all of us to think.
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All of us to engage in
conversation where we cross
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pollinate our ideas.
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You know Jeffery says something
that triggers a thought in me
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and then I respond to that which
triggers a thought in James and
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so on with people
all over the place.
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We have the privilege of
speaking into one another's
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experience and becoming richer
in our perspectives because of
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the perspectives of others.
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And that's a real blessing.
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--We spent time talking about
how revolutionary and radical it
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was for Luther to do what he
did not just from a spiritual or
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a religious standpoint but just
from a anthropological social
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cultural
psychological standpoint.
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To stand over and against
the prevailing Ecclesiastic
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hierarchy that said we'll tell
you what God's about, what he
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wants, how to do it.
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We'll tell you and
your job is to do it.
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--You're not supposed to think.
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--He like deconstructs the whole
system defederalizes the whole
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system by just saying well I'm
just kind of I'm going to relate
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to God on the basis of His word
and I'm just going to leave the
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church out.
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I mean what?
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No you aint.
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The idea that you could
just bypass the church and go
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straight to God was like.
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--Nothing short of
revolution total revolution.
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--You were saying that the
ripple effects of that we see
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today.
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--We're living in
the light of that.
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But it's not an understatement
to say, you said this Ty earlier
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and I ruminated on it in
the first program but I think I
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would say it this way, not a
better way, just my way, is that
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the United States of America
whether we know it corporately
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or not is standing on the
shoulders of the Martin Luther's
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of the world.
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There is no United States
without a Martin Luther it
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doesn't happen.
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And there's no Martin Luther
without a Paul and there's no
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Paul without a Jesus.
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--Yeah.
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--These concepts it's really
interesting are both found in
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Genesis.
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When you think about the story
and how it opens up there are 2
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things you realize and that
is first of all that Genesis
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reveals 2 people Adam and
Eve specifically who both were
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believing in God and who He was
and the reality of love and His
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character of love.
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And both ended up
misunderstanding God and being
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directing it in a different way
in understanding His character
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and what He was like.
00:10:03.30\00:10:03.93
--That's right.
00:10:03.93\00:10:05.13
--So you have the 2 religions
right there the 2 ways of
00:10:05.13\00:10:06.43
thinking right
there in Adam and Eve.
00:10:06.43\00:10:07.83
And we can develop that and then
the second is, is that you also
00:10:07.83\00:10:11.80
had people who went directly to
God who met with God who walked
00:10:11.80\00:10:15.76
with God and talked with God.
00:10:15.76\00:10:17.76
And then you had a third party
come in and directly through him
00:10:17.76\00:10:21.86
to understand God.
00:10:21.86\00:10:23.10
And when that happened they
understood God in a completely
00:10:23.10\00:10:26.00
different way.
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--You're talking about Lucifer.
00:10:26.70\00:10:27.56
--I'm talking about
the serpent Lucifer.
00:10:27.56\00:10:28.53
He comes in.
00:10:28.53\00:10:29.66
He says hey you need to see
God the way I interpret God.
00:10:29.66\00:10:32.13
This is the way that I see God.
00:10:32.13\00:10:33.86
This is the way that
I want you to see God.
00:10:33.86\00:10:35.33
--You got it.
00:10:35.33\00:10:36.56
--So you have both of those
ideas developed early on in this
00:10:36.56\00:10:39.56
whole picture, this
whole story of the Bible.
00:10:39.56\00:10:42.16
--When you look at Genesis 3:15
we talked about the tolineage,
00:10:42.16\00:10:45.96
the tolineage.
00:10:45.96\00:10:46.96
--Let's dive into it.
00:10:46.96\00:10:48.60
Let's dive into it.
00:10:48.60\00:10:49.83
--Yeah let's start in fact I
think we should start in Genesis
00:10:49.83\00:10:51.70
1 because in Genesis 1 you have
this whole idea of freedom which
00:10:51.70\00:10:54.83
is what we began with the whole
idea of God creating us as free
00:10:54.83\00:10:59.00
beings.
00:10:59.00\00:11:00.30
One of the things I really like
here in Genesis chapter 1 is
00:11:00.30\00:11:04.03
where God talks about
what man can do in the garden.
00:11:04.03\00:11:09.40
And the idea is is that I have
created you to enjoy everything
00:11:09.40\00:11:15.00
here, all of the
creation is yours.
00:11:15.00\00:11:17.26
I'm giving you
dominion over everything.
00:11:17.26\00:11:18.83
And everything that is here you
can freely eat of you can freely
00:11:18.83\00:11:22.33
enjoy everything
except for one thing.
00:11:22.33\00:11:24.33
--That's right.
00:11:24.33\00:11:25.33
--Chapter 2 verse 16
00:11:25.33\00:11:27.20
--Yes
00:11:27.20\00:11:28.46
--Of every tree of the Garden
you may freely eat so God begins
00:11:28.46\00:11:30.93
with the premise of
freedom and liberty.
00:11:30.93\00:11:32.43
Yes and that's the principle.
00:11:32.43\00:11:34.06
And yet there's this one tree
there's this one test if you
00:11:34.06\00:11:37.73
will.
00:11:37.73\00:11:39.00
There's this one aspect of God's
liberty in creation that calls
00:11:39.00\00:11:42.46
Adam and Eve,
calls us to trust God.
00:11:42.46\00:11:46.40
--To believe Him.
00:11:46.40\00:11:47.66
--To believe Him to believe when
He says but don't eat of this
00:11:47.66\00:11:51.06
tree because if you eat of this
tree you're gonna surely die.
00:11:51.06\00:11:53.13
So you've got this.
00:11:53.13\00:11:54.23
--Not I'll kill
you but you will die.
00:11:54.23\00:11:55.46
--Right.
00:11:55.46\00:11:56.66
Let this element then of
trust of faith and believing God
00:11:56.66\00:11:59.90
believing He's a God who cares
about us, who loves us and who's
00:11:59.90\00:12:04.83
not actually going to
get us if we don't obey Him.
00:12:04.83\00:12:08.53
But He's actually pointing out
danger that He wants us to be
00:12:08.53\00:12:12.16
kept away from.
00:12:12.16\00:12:13.43
--So they wanted they actually
wanted freedom from that, from
00:12:13.43\00:12:15.60
that one prohibition.
00:12:15.60\00:12:16.96
And by seeking freedom
from that one thing that God was
00:12:16.96\00:12:21.16
protecting them from
they became enslaved.
00:12:21.16\00:12:23.33
--Yes.
00:12:23.33\00:12:24.46
--When God already created
them in a free environment.
00:12:24.46\00:12:28.30
--A different way of
understanding of God.
00:12:28.30\00:12:30.63
--So James you just said
something that I don't, do you
00:12:30.63\00:12:33.70
think this is accurate that this
is a completely new thought to
00:12:33.70\00:12:37.26
me that, that Adam and Eve were
righteous by faith before the
00:12:37.26\00:12:42.93
fall.
00:12:42.93\00:12:44.13
Their righteousness their
position of their condition as
00:12:44.13\00:12:48.00
human beings as living
in love was based on a trust
00:12:48.00\00:12:52.36
relationship with God.
00:12:52.36\00:12:54.20
So there's a sense in which
their righteousness or their
00:12:54.20\00:12:58.96
moral condition from the
very beginning was grounded in a
00:12:58.96\00:13:03.40
trust relationship with God.
00:13:03.40\00:13:05.23
And the moment that trust
was broken through the lies that
00:13:05.23\00:13:10.03
they believed regarding the
character of God then trust was
00:13:10.03\00:13:12.70
broken.
00:13:12.70\00:13:13.40
--Yes.
00:13:13.40\00:13:14.66
--They ceased to believe in God
that's pretty broad language.
00:13:14.66\00:13:18.03
They ceased to trust God on
the premise of now seeing God
00:13:18.03\00:13:23.76
differently.
00:13:23.76\00:13:24.86
--And God's whole purpose
was to restore that trust.
00:13:24.86\00:13:26.70
--That's a good
definition of sin.
00:13:26.70\00:13:27.90
What is sin in the context
of everything you just said?
00:13:27.90\00:13:30.53
Sin is when
trust in God is broken.
00:13:30.53\00:13:33.43
--That's right.
00:13:33.43\00:13:34.43
--Everything that's not
of faith Romans says sin.
00:13:34.43\00:13:36.00
--Romans 14.
00:13:36.00\00:13:37.20
--Over said that many times
before that sin is a form of
00:13:37.20\00:13:40.23
insanity because it's
distrusting a being that has
00:13:40.23\00:13:44.06
never given us a
reason to distrust Him.
00:13:44.06\00:13:46.06
--I like that.
00:13:46.06\00:13:47.30
--But I like what you're saying
there that righteousness by
00:13:47.30\00:13:49.26
faith even though it's not what
it would later come to be faith
00:13:49.26\00:13:52.40
in the death of Jesus on our
behalf etc. But it is a right
00:13:52.40\00:13:56.96
standing with God by belief
in His character and person.
00:13:56.96\00:14:01.56
--Yeah.
00:14:01.56\00:14:02.83
--As long as they believed hey
when I tell you you can eat of
00:14:02.83\00:14:06.03
all these trees
but just not this one.
00:14:06.03\00:14:07.83
He has their best interest in
mind that they assume the best
00:14:07.83\00:14:10.96
about His character all is good.
00:14:10.96\00:14:12.53
--Right.
00:14:12.53\00:14:13.66
--So the sin problem then
is not merely or immediately a
00:14:13.66\00:14:18.56
behavioral problem.
00:14:18.56\00:14:19.70
--No hardly it's a psychological
--It's a psychological
00:14:19.70\00:14:22.56
testimony.
00:14:22.56\00:14:22.90
-Prpblem
00:14:22.90\00:14:23.66
--Yeah.
00:14:23.66\00:14:24.10
--That's right.
00:14:24.10\00:14:25.36
--There's a distortion that has
occurred in their thinking about
00:14:25.36\00:14:28.90
God, which then gives
rise to the outward behavioral
00:14:28.90\00:14:32.30
disobedience or
rebellion part of the whole.
00:14:32.30\00:14:35.23
--That's just the.
00:14:35.23\00:14:36.50
--The outward I'm so glad that
we're going down this road here
00:14:36.50\00:14:39.40
because I've been saying a lot
in my preaching this last year
00:14:39.40\00:14:42.53
that for many people the sin
problem is like spilled milk.
00:14:42.53\00:14:45.63
Like if I spilled this
water right here, which I won't
00:14:45.63\00:14:48.20
because we have electronics.
00:14:48.20\00:14:49.43
But if you spilled that water
right there there would be a
00:14:49.43\00:14:50.60
very simple solution.
00:14:50.60\00:14:51.46
You'd wipe it up.
00:14:51.46\00:14:52.03
--Yeah.
00:14:52.03\00:14:53.26
--So for many people the sin
problem is just like that it's
00:14:53.26\00:14:55.70
spilled milk, it's
spilled water, it's a drink.
00:14:55.70\00:14:57.30
Ok it's spilled oh wipe it
up as if that's the sin thing.
00:14:57.30\00:15:00.90
Oh you're doing that?
00:15:00.90\00:15:02.03
Stop doing that now.
00:15:02.03\00:15:03.06
Ok now we're all good.
00:15:03.06\00:15:04.03
All is well.
00:15:04.03\00:15:05.23
But if the sin problem is
emotional and it's about trust
00:15:05.23\00:15:10.03
and it's about a relationship
and it's psychological that
00:15:10.03\00:15:13.16
can't just be
restored by wiping it up.
00:15:13.16\00:15:14.90
Only by trust is trust restored.
00:15:14.90\00:15:17.36
Only by learning there's a
depth here that we sometimes.
00:15:17.36\00:15:21.56
--I think in my mind what has
always been helpful is sin is
00:15:21.56\00:15:25.26
not merely an act.
00:15:25.26\00:15:27.23
Sin is a condition.
00:15:27.23\00:15:29.20
--Of course.
00:15:29.20\00:15:29.86
Right.
00:15:29.86\00:15:30.73
--And God wants
to get to the source.
00:15:30.73\00:15:31.96
--Because in the context of
righteousness by faith it's very
00:15:31.96\00:15:34.63
easy then to try to find a
solution by doing the right
00:15:34.63\00:15:38.30
thing.
00:15:38.30\00:15:39.53
If sin and righteousness is just
a matter of doing something.
00:15:39.53\00:15:44.53
But what if it's a condition?
00:15:44.53\00:15:47.26
--Yeah yeah yeah.
00:15:47.26\00:15:48.53
--If it's a condition then the
option of me doing it's not even
00:15:48.53\00:15:53.13
on the table.
00:15:53.13\00:15:53.73
It's a condition.
00:15:53.73\00:15:55.23
--Yeah I was preaching my heart
out on this kind of thinking a
00:15:55.23\00:15:59.86
number of years back.
00:15:59.86\00:16:00.96
--I know it.
00:16:00.96\00:16:02.33
--God you know this.
00:16:02.33\00:16:03.36
--I know the story.
00:16:03.36\00:16:04.23
--I've shared this
before [Cross talking]
00:16:04.23\00:16:05.80
This guy stood up
in the congregation.
00:16:05.80\00:16:10.00
--While you're preaching.
00:16:10.00\00:16:11.20
--While I'm preaching and
interrupted and he said he said
00:16:11.20\00:16:14.73
there is a problem and there
is a solution and you are not
00:16:14.73\00:16:17.93
defining the problem and
you are not giving the solution.
00:16:17.93\00:16:21.40
So what are you going to do?
00:16:21.40\00:16:23.10
So I said hey the floor is yours
tell us what is the problem what
00:16:23.10\00:16:27.76
is the solution?
00:16:27.76\00:16:29.03
And with all dead seriousness he
said the problem is sin and the
00:16:29.03\00:16:33.86
solution is you need to quit it.
00:16:33.86\00:16:37.50
That's it.
00:16:37.50\00:16:38.03
--Yeah.
00:16:38.03\00:16:38.66
--That's
00:16:38.66\00:16:39.26
--The End.
00:16:39.26\00:16:40.13
Goodnight everyone
thank you for coming.
00:16:40.13\00:16:41.40
--Let us go to prayer.
00:16:41.40\00:16:42.16
--The spilled water.
00:16:42.16\00:16:43.23
--Just wipe it up.
00:16:43.23\00:16:44.20
--The water is
spilled clean it up.
00:16:44.20\00:16:46.33
--So now when you go to Genesis
3 right to Genesis 3 we've
00:16:46.33\00:16:49.73
talked just a little bit about
Genesis 1 and 2 when you go to
00:16:49.73\00:16:51.76
Genesis 3 we talked about this
in our first program The Big
00:16:51.76\00:16:55.10
Picture, our first series.
00:16:55.10\00:16:56.23
--Yeah.
00:16:56.23\00:16:57.50
--But you basically have, you
know, Satan says, Lucifer here
00:16:57.50\00:17:00.16
says did God really say
you can't eat of every tree?
00:17:00.16\00:17:03.56
ie big
restriction, God's restricting.
00:17:03.56\00:17:06.33
Number 2 you
will not surely die.
00:17:06.33\00:17:09.36
God is not trustworthy.
00:17:09.36\00:17:10.63
Number 3 God knows that in the
day that you eat of this you'll
00:17:10.63\00:17:13.90
be like God you know
God's knowing good and evil.
00:17:13.90\00:17:15.83
He's trying to keep you down so
1, 2, 3 it's sequential and it's
00:17:15.83\00:17:19.30
linear.
00:17:19.30\00:17:20.56
He's leading her here so he can
lead her here so he can finally
00:17:20.56\00:17:22.30
get to his point which is
what kind of a person is God?
00:17:22.30\00:17:25.60
Now here's my point.
00:17:25.60\00:17:26.73
The eating of the fruit
comes at the end of all of that.
00:17:26.73\00:17:29.76
--That's right.
00:17:29.76\00:17:30.33
--Not the beginning.
00:17:30.33\00:17:31.53
So once you've taken the
hard drive out of a good God, a
00:17:31.53\00:17:34.96
creator God, a clever God, a
sovereign God, a gracious God
00:17:34.96\00:17:37.30
you set that over here.
00:17:37.30\00:17:38.66
And then you insert well God is
really like this and reality is
00:17:38.66\00:17:41.40
like this.
00:17:41.40\00:17:42.10
Now this is that's inevitable.
00:17:42.10\00:17:45.63
--So he didn't
have to twist her arm.
00:17:45.63\00:17:46.90
--It's inevitable
not only did he not
00:17:46.90\00:17:49.03
--He twisted her mind.
00:17:49.03\00:17:49.86
--He twisted her mind.
00:17:49.86\00:17:50.83
--Yes.
00:17:50.83\00:17:51.83
--It's if we sin
follows a wrong picture of God.
00:17:51.83\00:17:55.56
If we are thinking wrong
about God sin is not an option.
00:17:55.56\00:17:58.23
It's an inevitability.
00:17:58.23\00:17:59.70
--Right.
00:17:59.70\00:18:00.36
--It is.
00:18:00.36\00:18:01.53
--If you're going to rebel
against a God who you see as
00:18:01.53\00:18:04.10
being against you.
00:18:04.10\00:18:05.16
--Of course.
00:18:05.16\00:18:05.96
--You're going
to want to survive.
00:18:05.96\00:18:07.16
And that's what Eve wanted
to do she wanted to survive.
00:18:07.16\00:18:09.63
--Good point.
00:18:09.63\00:18:10.73
--She had to eat because
she wanted to become wise.
00:18:10.73\00:18:13.00
She wanted to become like God.
00:18:13.00\00:18:14.23
She wanted to be able to survive
against this being that was
00:18:14.23\00:18:17.03
really out for his own good that
was really a liar and couldn't
00:18:17.03\00:18:19.43
be trusted.
00:18:19.43\00:18:20.30
And that's what
the world wants today.
00:18:20.30\00:18:21.53
If God has been
lying they need to survive.
00:18:21.53\00:18:23.90
How are we going to survive?
00:18:23.90\00:18:25.16
We've got to eat of the tree of
the knowledge for good and evil.
00:18:25.16\00:18:27.10
--It's a much bigger mess
than what people think then.
00:18:27.10\00:18:30.93
[Crosstalk]
00:18:30.93\00:18:33.56
One guy in Van Couver told
me if I was, I think I mentioned
00:18:33.56\00:18:36.13
this earlier, if I were God
I would shoot the Devil dead
00:18:36.13\00:18:40.13
tonight.
00:18:40.13\00:18:40.83
Problem solved.
00:18:40.83\00:18:42.56
--You wish.
00:18:42.56\00:18:43.83
--Yeah the problem is that God's
biggest problem is between our
00:18:43.83\00:18:48.33
ears.
00:18:48.33\00:18:49.33
So it's this messed
up concept of who God is.
00:18:49.33\00:18:52.63
--And this is so powerful
because when you think about
00:18:52.63\00:18:54.36
Martin Luther he was being
honest with the reality of what
00:18:54.36\00:18:57.83
he knew in here.
00:18:57.83\00:18:59.10
He knew all that outward stuff
wasn't solving the problem that
00:18:59.10\00:19:02.00
he felt right here.
00:19:02.00\00:19:03.16
And I think hundreds if
not thousands of people today
00:19:03.16\00:19:05.30
especially young people today
are realizing the same thing.
00:19:05.30\00:19:08.40
They're looking at Christianity
as we define it they're looking
00:19:08.40\00:19:12.00
at the problems we define and
they're saying wait a minute.
00:19:12.00\00:19:13.73
--Now do you mean as
we or as often defined.
00:19:13.73\00:19:15.50
--As often defined.
00:19:15.50\00:19:16.60
--Ok I gotcha.
00:19:16.60\00:19:17.30
--They're saying wait a minute.
00:19:17.30\00:19:18.13
I've done that.
00:19:18.13\00:19:19.26
I've tired that.
00:19:19.26\00:19:20.46
But there's still something
in here that isn't changing.
00:19:20.46\00:19:22.83
There's something in here that
isn't changing and because we're
00:19:22.83\00:19:26.43
refusing to identify that as
part of the sin problem they're
00:19:26.43\00:19:30.43
just tossing the whole thing.
00:19:30.43\00:19:31.70
--K guys we need to take a break
because we're obligated to take
00:19:31.70\00:19:35.00
a break.
00:19:35.00\00:19:35.83
And then, wow,
this is good stuff.
00:19:35.83\00:19:37.50
We'll come back and we'll just
continue through the story in
00:19:37.50\00:19:39.93
Genesis.
00:19:39.93\00:19:40.83
--Perfect.
00:19:40.83\00:19:41.50
--Sounds good.
00:19:41.50\00:19:42.00
Hi I'm Ty Gibson
welcome to digma.com.
00:19:43.70\00:19:46.76
I am so excited about this
website because you're about to
00:19:46.76\00:19:50.10
discover a powerful new way to
share life transforming messages
00:19:50.10\00:19:54.76
and videos with your family,
friends and anybody else on the
00:19:54.76\00:19:58.16
planet who has
access to a computer.
00:19:58.16\00:20:00.40
Digma is a Greek word it
basically means to show or to
00:20:01.60\00:20:05.90
reveal something by means of
a pattern or an example of some
00:20:05.90\00:20:08.76
kind.
00:20:08.76\00:20:10.03
It's the second half of the word
paradigma from which we get the
00:20:10.03\00:20:13.70
English word
paradigm as in paradigm shift.
00:20:13.70\00:20:18.46
And so what you're going to
find at digma.com is a growing
00:20:18.46\00:20:21.20
library of short videos
and transcripts dealing with
00:20:21.20\00:20:24.16
paradigms and
fundamental questions.
00:20:24.16\00:20:26.93
What's the meaning of life?
00:20:26.93\00:20:29.66
What is our origin and
destiny as human beings?
00:20:29.66\00:20:33.16
What happens when we die?
00:20:33.16\00:20:35.23
Does God exist or are we
alone in this vast universe?
00:20:35.23\00:20:39.86
Why is there so much evil
and suffering in our world?
00:20:39.86\00:20:44.00
An estimated 70% of American's
have a computer right in their
00:20:44.00\00:20:49.33
home and stay in touch with
family and friends by email.
00:20:49.33\00:20:52.73
And more than 400 million people
are active on Facebook and 5
00:20:52.73\00:20:58.30
million new users are
signing up every week.
00:20:58.30\00:21:02.43
We are literally in the midst of
a communications revolution of
00:21:02.43\00:21:07.53
massive proportion.
00:21:07.53\00:21:09.23
This is granting the
gospel direct and easy access to
00:21:09.23\00:21:14.13
millions upon
millions of homes and hearts.
00:21:14.13\00:21:17.86
And that's what
digma.com is all about.
00:21:17.86\00:21:22.30
It's a tool for leading
our family and friends on an
00:21:22.30\00:21:25.70
exciting paradigm shift by
revealing the truth of God's
00:21:25.70\00:21:29.83
creative power and his
incredibly beautiful character
00:21:29.83\00:21:34.20
in contrast to our world's
popular misconceptions about who
00:21:34.20\00:21:40.16
God is.
00:21:40.16\00:21:41.30
[Music]
00:21:41.30\00:21:48.93
[Music]
00:21:58.03\00:22:01.93
Alright so in the first segment
of this second conversation
00:22:03.93\00:22:08.10
we're having we were kind of
recovering some of the stuff we
00:22:08.10\00:22:10.43
talked about in
session one actually.
00:22:10.43\00:22:13.03
But it's good because we
added some additional emphasis.
00:22:13.03\00:22:15.56
Let's just get right into
what's happening post fall.
00:22:15.56\00:22:19.16
After Genesis chapter 3
the first 5, 10, 15 verses.
00:22:19.16\00:22:24.60
What's going on there with the
human race as we come to Cain
00:22:24.60\00:22:30.70
and Able?
00:22:30.70\00:22:31.56
I mean what's the
gist of that story?
00:22:31.56\00:22:33.73
The Cain and Able story?
00:22:33.73\00:22:34.73
--The Cain and Able
story or the Genesis 3 story?
00:22:34.73\00:22:36.73
--Well we did Genesis 3.
00:22:36.73\00:22:38.06
--Got it ok.
00:22:38.06\00:22:38.93
--We can go back
there if you want.
00:22:38.93\00:22:40.20
--No no I just was
unclear on the story.
00:22:40.20\00:22:41.46
--But what's happening now post
fall, after the fall of mankind
00:22:41.46\00:22:45.03
we have chapter 4 now and
the story of Cain and Able.
00:22:45.03\00:22:50.00
What's going on here?
00:22:50.00\00:22:51.63
--Well you got a
brother killing his brother.
00:22:52.80\00:22:55.36
--Why though?
00:22:55.36\00:22:57.10
--Well because he's jealous.
00:22:57.10\00:22:58.26
--I mean why
what's prompting murder?
00:22:58.26\00:22:59.63
--I would say
because he's jealous.
00:22:59.63\00:23:02.56
He is upset that God has
respected the offering of his
00:23:02.56\00:23:07.10
brother.
00:23:07.10\00:23:08.30
They have a, ok they have a
different way of relating to
00:23:08.30\00:23:11.50
God.
00:23:11.50\00:23:12.76
One has brought his fruits and
vegetables and all of that kind
00:23:12.76\00:23:15.56
of stuff and the
other has brought his lamb.
00:23:15.56\00:23:17.30
God asked for a lamb.
00:23:17.30\00:23:18.16
God has respect for
the offering of Able.
00:23:18.16\00:23:22.53
He does not respect
the offering of Cain.
00:23:22.53\00:23:24.56
There's significant crystal
logical reasons for that we
00:23:24.56\00:23:28.20
will get into that.
00:23:28.20\00:23:29.63
But in answer the simple answer
to your question is he was upset
00:23:29.63\00:23:32.70
that God seemed to
be favoring his brother.
00:23:32.70\00:23:36.13
--We could say
there's 2 sacrifices.
00:23:36.13\00:23:38.40
--Ok.
00:23:38.40\00:23:39.46
--You could summarize
the story with 2 sacrifices.
00:23:39.46\00:23:41.23
One sacrifice is the product of
the mans own doing and the other
00:23:41.23\00:23:48.50
sacrifice is
symbolic of God's doing.
00:23:48.50\00:23:51.16
--Oh I love it.
00:23:51.16\00:23:52.10
--One symbolizes what I do.
00:23:52.10\00:23:53.23
The other is a
symbol of what God does.
00:23:53.23\00:23:56.86
--So that's not
just being picky.
00:23:56.86\00:23:58.16
He's not just being a
micromanaging control freak
00:23:58.16\00:24:01.40
here.
00:24:01.40\00:24:02.56
He's not saying hey I
wanted something else and so I'm
00:24:02.56\00:24:04.70
against there's
something theological here.
00:24:04.70\00:24:07.10
--This is the essence of
righteousness by faith and
00:24:07.10\00:24:09.90
righteousness by works.
00:24:09.90\00:24:10.93
--Yes it is.
00:24:10.93\00:24:12.16
--We've used those theological
terms and now we're bringing
00:24:12.16\00:24:15.36
them down.
00:24:15.36\00:24:16.43
We're just bringing them
down to practical actions.
00:24:16.43\00:24:17.93
And the practical actions of
those 2 terms is trusting in the
00:24:17.93\00:24:22.23
sacrifice that God provides
which is Abel bringing the lamb
00:24:22.23\00:24:25.86
which symbolizes or
represents what God provides.
00:24:25.86\00:24:29.33
It symbolizes or represents
Jesus which God will provide as
00:24:29.33\00:24:32.66
we didn't read the verses but
as we look at the promises in
00:24:32.66\00:24:35.26
Genesis 3:15.
00:24:35.26\00:24:36.53
And then Cain who comes with the
sacrifices that were created by
00:24:36.53\00:24:41.73
his own work, by his own hands.
00:24:41.73\00:24:43.66
Trusting in what he can do to
appease or to offer sacrifices.
00:24:43.66\00:24:50.66
--And it's so interesting
that when Cain realizes that his
00:24:50.66\00:24:54.10
sacrifice is
basically a nonsacrifice.
00:24:54.10\00:24:57.96
It's just a
reflection of himself.
00:24:57.96\00:25:00.30
He gets angry that it doesn't
fit in with God's picture of
00:25:00.30\00:25:04.10
reality.
00:25:04.10\00:25:05.30
So he gets angry that his
version of who God is and what
00:25:05.30\00:25:08.76
God wants doesn't
fit in with his own.
00:25:08.76\00:25:12.63
--Which by the way and I know
we don't have a lot of time to
00:25:12.63\00:25:15.33
spend on this but I think
it's really important for us to
00:25:15.33\00:25:17.40
recognize this, which by
the way is another determining
00:25:17.40\00:25:21.53
revelation of the one
religion verses the other.
00:25:21.53\00:25:25.30
When you look at religion almost
every religion that is not based
00:25:25.30\00:25:29.86
on the Christianity of the
Bible or should I just say the
00:25:29.86\00:25:32.46
biblical version of religion is
a persecuting religion in some
00:25:32.46\00:25:37.63
form or another.
00:25:37.63\00:25:38.76
It's a religion that
will generate persecution will
00:25:38.76\00:25:40.66
generate hate.
00:25:40.66\00:25:41.93
And the one distinguishing fact
that Jimmy Carter once said this
00:25:41.93\00:25:44.66
he said the religion of Jesus
Christ never persecuted anyone.
00:25:44.66\00:25:49.16
Think about that.
00:25:49.16\00:25:51.26
--I just took a picture of
a bumper sticker the other day
00:25:51.26\00:25:52.60
that said who would Jesus bomb?
00:25:52.60\00:25:54.96
-Bomb?
00:25:54.96\00:25:56.10
--Bomb.
00:25:56.10\00:25:56.93
--Who would
Jesus drop a bomb on?
00:25:56.93\00:25:58.16
--Yes.
00:25:58.16\00:25:58.86
--Yeah that was the question.
00:25:58.86\00:26:00.20
--You would follow quickly with
people who have misrepresented
00:26:00.20\00:26:02.73
the religion of Jesus
have bombed plenty of folk.
00:26:02.73\00:26:05.66
--Yeah there's been a lot of
blood shed down through history
00:26:05.66\00:26:07.63
in the name of
Christ and Christianity.
00:26:07.63\00:26:09.83
--But not in the character.
00:26:09.83\00:26:11.06
--And you would also have to
follow that with what about the
00:26:11.06\00:26:13.20
Old Testament?
00:26:13.20\00:26:14.16
What about the Old
Testament picture of God?
00:26:14.16\00:26:15.80
What about the war it said takes
place in the Old Testament?
00:26:15.80\00:26:18.80
And so here we are looking
at the Old Testament even and
00:26:18.80\00:26:22.43
Christianity in general with
eyes with glasses that again are
00:26:22.43\00:26:27.30
not understanding the character
of God the heart of God.
00:26:27.30\00:26:30.06
And that's what
we've gotta unpack.
00:26:30.06\00:26:31.20
--I gotta ask a question.
00:26:31.20\00:26:33.06
We're being very theological
here which I think is great.
00:26:33.06\00:26:35.30
But can anyone help with a
textural reason in Genesis 4 as
00:26:35.30\00:26:41.03
to why God refused
the offering of Cain.
00:26:41.03\00:26:44.83
--The best I can do
and I've thought about it.
00:26:44.83\00:26:46.96
--The text doesn't say.
00:26:46.96\00:26:47.66
Even my answer way theological.
00:26:47.66\00:26:50.30
--Well but look at I don't know
if this helps at all but in the
00:26:50.30\00:26:54.70
context of chapter 3 when
Adam and Eve sinned based on a
00:26:54.70\00:26:59.30
Misconception of God's character
in chapter 3 verse 7 they make
00:26:59.30\00:27:03.73
themselves coverings, right?
00:27:03.73\00:27:06.46
They hide themselves from
God and they're afraid of God.
00:27:06.46\00:27:10.36
That's in verses 8 and 9 ok.
00:27:10.36\00:27:13.10
Then God responds by telling
them in chapter 3 verse 15 that
00:27:13.10\00:27:19.73
it's going to take suffering on
His part, a divine intervention
00:27:19.73\00:27:24.63
that will involve sacrifice
on His part in order to undo the
00:27:24.63\00:27:29.80
sin problem to save them.
00:27:29.80\00:27:31.10
--Or on the part
of the deliverer.
00:27:31.10\00:27:33.00
--Yeah on the
part of the deliverer.
00:27:33.00\00:27:34.83
--Gotcha.
00:27:34.83\00:27:36.06
--And then in chapter 3 verse
21 we have God putting skins on
00:27:36.06\00:27:43.03
them, which implies that
there's something going on.
00:27:43.03\00:27:45.86
Death has occurred a sacrifice
has been made which is a
00:27:45.86\00:27:48.36
replacement for the coverings
that they generated which is
00:27:48.36\00:27:51.06
vegetation.
00:27:51.06\00:27:52.60
You have no suffering indicated
here no sacrifice indicated
00:27:52.60\00:27:56.33
here.
00:27:56.33\00:27:57.60
So all of this back-story you
come then to Cain and Able and
00:27:57.60\00:28:02.73
what does Cain do?
00:28:02.73\00:28:04.63
He brings a bloodless sacrifice
or offering we should say.
00:28:04.63\00:28:11.76
--An offering of
the fruit of the ground.
00:28:11.76\00:28:13.30
--Yeah that involves no
suffering that involves no
00:28:13.30\00:28:15.16
sacrifice that is a denial of
what God has been trying to say
00:28:15.16\00:28:21.03
in implementing
the sacrificial system.
00:28:21.03\00:28:23.40
But then Able follows
through and indicates that he
00:28:23.40\00:28:27.56
understands that God
will be the sufferer.
00:28:27.56\00:28:31.60
God will be the one who makes
the sacrifice in the salvation
00:28:31.60\00:28:35.06
equation.
00:28:35.06\00:28:37.86
--Yeah that's exactly no listen
that is the answer that I was
00:28:37.86\00:28:40.36
hoping you'd get.
00:28:40.36\00:28:40.90
--So flush that out.
00:28:40.90\00:28:42.16
--Because I said that in a very
long drawn out way because I'm
00:28:42.16\00:28:44.96
thinking it through myself.
00:28:44.96\00:28:46.16
--It's in the
context of the story.
00:28:46.16\00:28:47.56
--It is but it's another aspect
to that I think that's really
00:28:47.56\00:28:50.56
crucial.
00:28:50.56\00:28:51.46
I think that is
the vital foundation.
00:28:51.46\00:28:52.63
We move into the story and
here's what God says that I
00:28:52.63\00:28:55.10
think is really interesting.
00:28:55.10\00:28:56.33
In the context of the verses
when you were trying to get the
00:28:56.33\00:28:58.80
context out of here.
00:28:58.80\00:28:59.93
God comes to him, as the
sacrifice is not accepted let's
00:28:59.93\00:29:03.96
just read the verses here.
00:29:03.96\00:29:05.53
Genesis 4 verse 5 but unto Cain
and his offering He, God had not
00:29:05.53\00:29:11.13
respect and Cain was
very wrathful angry and his
00:29:11.13\00:29:13.93
countenance fell and the Lord
said unto him in verse 6 unto
00:29:13.93\00:29:17.90
Cain why are you angry and
why is your countenance fallen?
00:29:17.90\00:29:21.43
If you do well it
shall be accepted.
00:29:21.43\00:29:24.70
Now here's something I think is
really interesting God is saying
00:29:24.70\00:29:27.43
if what you did was good if
what you did was right if what
00:29:27.43\00:29:31.86
you did was you were
thinking the right way then you
00:29:31.86\00:29:36.43
you're going to be accepted.
00:29:36.43\00:29:39.46
But if not sin
lies at your door.
00:29:39.46\00:29:42.03
And it's it.
00:29:42.03\00:29:43.26
It's as if God is saying to Cain
if what you did was not good
00:29:43.26\00:29:47.10
then the actions that
are about to be revealed
00:29:47.10\00:29:51.00
in your life are going
to demonstrate that to you.
00:29:51.00\00:29:53.50
--They're going to
reflect your theology.
00:29:53.50\00:29:55.36
--Yes.
00:29:55.36\00:29:56.63
You the way you've approached me
is going to be reflected now and
00:29:56.63\00:29:59.36
the actions right
outside your door.
00:29:59.36\00:30:01.86
And those actions are going
to be revealed right now to you
00:30:01.86\00:30:06.00
whether or not you
approach me in the right way.
00:30:06.00\00:30:07.86
--So if you approach God on the
premise of Him being faithful to
00:30:07.86\00:30:14.06
sacrifice for us then there's
not going to be anything in your
00:30:14.06\00:30:20.26
belief system that would lead to
hatred or anger or persecution
00:30:20.26\00:30:24.50
of others.
00:30:24.50\00:30:25.76
But if you have a picture of God
where he demands appeasement and
00:30:25.76\00:30:29.00
you are to manufacture an
offering in order to ameliorate
00:30:29.00\00:30:34.40
the situation then you're going
to have the seeds of anger and
00:30:34.40\00:30:38.70
persecution in
your belief system.
00:30:38.70\00:30:40.56
--Basically reflect
your version of God.
00:30:40.56\00:30:42.90
--Yeah.
00:30:42.90\00:30:44.16
--As we were talking earlier
if you were actually trusting in
00:30:44.16\00:30:46.43
yourself and you think there's
some goodness in yourself that
00:30:46.43\00:30:49.06
could produce something that
connection with God in this way
00:30:49.06\00:30:52.13
as soon as that is questioned
as soon as that those works are
00:30:52.13\00:30:57.70
questioned you're going to
have a hard time with that.
00:30:57.70\00:30:59.80
That's going to bother you.
00:30:59.80\00:31:01.00
In other words when we
understand the total depravity
00:31:01.00\00:31:03.56
of ourselves nothings going to
bother because our whole trust
00:31:03.56\00:31:06.46
is in that sacrifice.
00:31:06.46\00:31:07.36
--Yeah yeah.
00:31:07.36\00:31:08.50
--Cain was bothered because
now he himself personally.
00:31:08.50\00:31:12.23
--He feels rejected.
00:31:12.23\00:31:13.13
--He feels rejected.
00:31:13.13\00:31:14.40
--Check this out you guys when
you come to the New Testament
00:31:14.40\00:31:17.16
what you have here is
Cain commits an act of murder.
00:31:17.16\00:31:20.83
Cain kills Able ok.
00:31:20.83\00:31:23.66
Jesus explained that in a
religious context, which is the
00:31:23.66\00:31:27.30
Cain and Able story is.
00:31:27.30\00:31:28.76
--That's right.
00:31:28.76\00:31:30.00
--Jesus explained in John 16
verses 1 through about 3 these
00:31:30.00\00:31:34.76
things I have spoken to you
that you should not be made to
00:31:34.76\00:31:37.76
stumble they will put
you out of the synagogues.
00:31:37.76\00:31:40.43
Yes the time is coming when
those who kill you, the one who
00:31:40.43\00:31:44.20
kills you will think that he's
doing offers God's service and
00:31:44.20\00:31:48.60
verse 3 these things they will
do to you because they have not
00:31:48.60\00:31:51.73
known me nor my father.
00:31:51.73\00:31:54.50
--Whoa.
00:31:54.50\00:31:55.76
--So the premise of murder in a
religious context the premise of
00:31:55.76\00:32:00.70
persecution within religious
systems is that we don't know
00:32:00.70\00:32:06.93
God as He really is.
00:32:06.93\00:32:08.80
If we knew God as He really is
we could never perform acts of
00:32:08.80\00:32:12.43
violence in His name.
00:32:12.43\00:32:13.86
--Ah that's a great line.
00:32:13.86\00:32:15.66
If we knew God as He really is
we could never perform acts of
00:32:15.66\00:32:19.56
violence in His name.
00:32:19.56\00:32:20.63
--That's right.
00:32:20.63\00:32:21.33
--I love the idea.
00:32:21.33\00:32:22.40
--So you
answered my you go ahead.
00:32:22.40\00:32:23.86
--No I just love the idea
that Genesis 4 Cain and Abel's
00:32:23.86\00:32:27.13
they're both religious.
00:32:27.13\00:32:28.66
They're both approaching God.
00:32:28.66\00:32:30.63
--That's what we said
there's 2 religions right?
00:32:30.63\00:32:33.06
So I just want to summarize
Ty the thing you said because I
00:32:33.06\00:32:36.33
think you hit the nail exactly
on the head and that is that
00:32:36.33\00:32:40.00
what's taking place in Genesis
4 makes sense only in light of 2
00:32:40.00\00:32:44.70
major things that are coming out
of Genesis 3 that the deliverer
00:32:44.70\00:32:48.33
himself would be
wounded to death.
00:32:48.33\00:32:50.40
You get bitten by a
viper and you're gonna die.
00:32:50.40\00:32:52.20
And that God made
them coats of skins.
00:32:52.20\00:32:55.70
So before we're in Genesis
1, 2 and 3 we're not in Matthew,
00:32:55.70\00:32:58.83
Mark, Luke, John.
00:32:58.83\00:33:00.10
We're not in the Old Testament
we already know that some
00:33:00.10\00:33:02.83
woundedness will
befall the deliverer.
00:33:02.83\00:33:05.70
Ok then we go to Genesis 4 and
we have this 2 offerings and I
00:33:05.70\00:33:11.13
think you're exactly correct.
00:33:11.13\00:33:12.40
we can only makes sense of why
does God care this is you know
00:33:12.40\00:33:15.16
wheat and barley, mangos
and apples and this is a lamb.
00:33:15.16\00:33:17.63
Why?
00:33:17.63\00:33:18.20
What's the big deal?
00:33:18.20\00:33:19.43
Because this does not in any
way communicate the sacrificial
00:33:19.43\00:33:24.36
self-sacrificing
nature of God himself.
00:33:24.36\00:33:27.86
This is generated by Cain.
00:33:27.86\00:33:29.46
This is Abel's confidence that
God will generate the coverings.
00:33:29.46\00:33:34.43
--So it's faith, confidence.
00:33:34.43\00:33:35.90
--It's confidence.
00:33:35.90\00:33:37.16
--Trust.
00:33:37.16\00:33:37.73
--In God's faithfulness.
00:33:37.73\00:33:38.53
--Yeah.
00:33:38.53\00:33:39.10
--Oh I just had an idea.
00:33:39.10\00:33:40.90
Don't lose that thought.
00:33:40.90\00:33:41.73
--I won't.
00:33:41.73\00:33:43.00
--The thought that came to me
just a moment ago was that how
00:33:43.00\00:33:44.70
ironic is it that Cain is
willing to slay his brother but
00:33:44.70\00:33:51.33
not a lamb.
00:33:51.33\00:33:52.16
--Wow.
00:33:52.16\00:33:52.76
--He won't slay a lamb.
00:33:52.76\00:33:54.40
But he'll slay his brother.
00:33:54.40\00:33:56.10
--That is amazing.
00:33:56.10\00:33:57.13
--Again it's self-revelation.
00:33:57.13\00:33:59.46
God is saying I want to reveal
the direction that this leads to
00:33:59.46\00:34:03.93
what it ultimately leads you too
you think that you wouldn't slay
00:34:03.93\00:34:06.76
a lamb.
00:34:06.76\00:34:07.53
[Crosstalk]
00:34:07.53\00:34:09.93
And yet and
here's the bottom-line.
00:34:09.93\00:34:12.63
So God investigates.
00:34:12.63\00:34:14.20
God comes to Cain and
he says hey where's Able?
00:34:14.20\00:34:17.06
And what does Cain say?
00:34:17.06\00:34:18.30
--Am I my brother's keeper?
00:34:20.20\00:34:21.43
--Righteousness by faith in
other words God is our brothers
00:34:21.43\00:34:25.46
keeper and that
is passed on to us.
00:34:25.46\00:34:29.00
The love of God what we
see in the right doing of the
00:34:29.00\00:34:32.30
righteousness of God the love
of God comes into our hearts.
00:34:32.30\00:34:35.03
And we become
our brother's keeper.
00:34:35.03\00:34:36.70
We take care of one another and
Cain's self righteousness not
00:34:36.70\00:34:41.60
only leads to persecution
in killing his brother.
00:34:41.60\00:34:44.16
He, I'm not my brother's keeper.
00:34:44.16\00:34:46.76
--Ok so out of Eden comes these
2 there's a fork in the road.
00:34:46.76\00:34:51.23
--Yeah.
00:34:51.23\00:34:52.50
--There's 2 ways of thinking
2 ideologies 2 theologies 2 ways
00:34:52.50\00:34:57.03
of looking at God 2
ways therefore of looking at
00:34:57.03\00:34:59.33
ourselves.
00:34:59.33\00:35:00.50
And 2 different ways
diametrically opposed ways of
00:35:00.50\00:35:03.83
looking at the human
relationship with God.
00:35:03.83\00:35:06.60
Genesis chapter 4
then gives way to what?
00:35:06.60\00:35:10.06
How does the story
continue to unfold in Genesis?
00:35:10.06\00:35:13.13
--Well I think it's really
powerful here is that Cain begs
00:35:13.13\00:35:16.66
not to be killed.
00:35:16.66\00:35:17.90
He's a killer but he begs he
believes he's gonna be killed so
00:35:17.90\00:35:21.46
God protects him.
00:35:21.46\00:35:22.50
God puts a mark on him.
00:35:22.50\00:35:23.76
God says no and that is again
a manifestation of the character
00:35:23.76\00:35:27.26
to the love the
mercy the grace of God.
00:35:27.26\00:35:29.86
Even though God of course sees
that leading to a whole earth
00:35:29.86\00:35:33.90
filled with violence.
00:35:33.90\00:35:35.30
Because he knows the
deprivation the seed of Cain's
00:35:35.30\00:35:41.90
self-righteousness is going
to lead to a world of violence.
00:35:41.90\00:35:44.53
--Are you planning to now?
00:35:44.53\00:35:46.40
--Hey my mind's all the way
in Genesis 10 and 11 but if you
00:35:46.40\00:35:51.30
guys want to do
something before 10 and 11.
00:35:51.30\00:35:53.36
--I want to say one more
thing about Cain and Able.
00:35:53.36\00:35:55.30
--Go ahead.
00:35:55.30\00:35:56.50
--I was just gonna say that
Jesus attaches the very same
00:35:56.50\00:35:58.86
kind of religious significance
that you were talking about
00:35:58.86\00:36:00.93
where were you at Matthew 16.
00:36:00.93\00:36:02.26
Where was that
verse you quoted for us?
00:36:02.26\00:36:03.46
--John 16.
00:36:03.46\00:36:04.73
--John 16 it's interesting that
in Luke 11 Jesus says I'll read
00:36:04.73\00:36:08.26
in verse 49 Jesus speaking
therefore the wisdom of God also
00:36:08.26\00:36:11.13
said I will send them
prophets and apostles.
00:36:11.13\00:36:13.16
Some of them they will kill and
persecute that the blood of all
00:36:13.16\00:36:16.53
the prophets which were shed
from the foundation of the world
00:36:16.53\00:36:19.03
may be required of this
generation; 51 from the blood of
00:36:19.03\00:36:22.20
Able the son of Zachariah to the
from the blood of Able to the
00:36:22.20\00:36:27.73
blood of Zachariah who perished
between the altar and the
00:36:27.73\00:36:29.73
temple.
00:36:29.73\00:36:30.93
Yes I say to you it will be
required of this generation.
00:36:30.93\00:36:32.06
Ok here's my point Jesus
attaches religious persecution
00:36:32.06\00:36:36.26
significance.
00:36:36.26\00:36:37.53
The significance of religious
persecution to the experience of
00:36:37.53\00:36:39.43
Able.
00:36:39.43\00:36:40.70
It wasn't just an anger issue
like I'm upset with my brother
00:36:40.70\00:36:43.10
because it was...Jesus attaches
religious significance to it.
00:36:43.10\00:36:47.53
He's like this is persecution of
the prophets and of course the
00:36:47.53\00:36:50.03
prophets came to show
us who and what God was.
00:36:50.03\00:36:52.00
--Right.
00:36:52.00\00:36:53.26
--And of course then you get you
know in the book of Hebrews the
00:36:53.26\00:36:56.93
author of Hebrews says that
Cain's sacrifice was or Abel's
00:36:56.93\00:36:59.90
sacrifice was more excellent.
00:36:59.90\00:37:01.70
--Yeah.
00:37:01.70\00:37:02.93
--So my point here is just
that it's fascinating that Jesus
00:37:02.93\00:37:04.53
himself, we're not just looking
like you know scratching you
00:37:04.53\00:37:08.43
know and pulling at straws here
to try and find something that
00:37:08.43\00:37:10.66
the text doesn't say.
00:37:10.66\00:37:11.93
Jesus himself attaches religious
significance and persecution to
00:37:11.93\00:37:15.36
what's going on here.
00:37:15.36\00:37:16.56
So it was the idea of 2 streams
one persecuting the other.
00:37:16.56\00:37:19.86
--Yeah persecution necessarily
arises out of the misconception
00:37:19.86\00:37:23.00
of God's character.
00:37:23.00\00:37:23.86
--As does sin.
00:37:23.86\00:37:24.76
-Yeah.
00:37:24.76\00:37:26.03
--That was the thing we said in
Genesis 3 sin follows the false
00:37:26.03\00:37:27.43
picture of God.
00:37:27.43\00:37:28.60
And then Genesis 4 murder
persecution follows a false
00:37:28.60\00:37:32.26
picture of God.
00:37:32.26\00:37:33.40
--Let's piggyback on that
too before we skip over it.
00:37:33.40\00:37:36.23
I just touch on the story
of Noah just a little bit.
00:37:36.23\00:37:38.90
I think also we also we don't
want to completely eliminate the
00:37:38.90\00:37:42.13
exercise of faith by Able
because even though we can
00:37:42.13\00:37:44.50
explain why in Genesis 3
and Genesis 4 we also want to
00:37:44.50\00:37:47.93
recognize this element of
faith that even Adam and Eve had
00:37:47.93\00:37:50.76
before the fall.
00:37:50.76\00:37:51.90
Exercise toward God and trusting
God rather than trusting
00:37:51.90\00:37:55.56
ourselves.
00:37:55.56\00:37:56.50
Noah has that same element.
00:37:56.50\00:37:57.90
He is told as the world is
filled with violence that he
00:37:57.90\00:38:02.16
needs to build an ark, a ship.
00:38:02.16\00:38:04.53
Why?
00:38:04.53\00:38:05.33
Because there's
gonna be a flood.
00:38:05.33\00:38:06.56
I mean think about that just
think about that for a minute.
00:38:06.56\00:38:09.50
You're building a ship.
00:38:09.50\00:38:10.53
--Only one-way you do that.
00:38:10.53\00:38:12.23
--You're building a ship that's
big enough to hold all these
00:38:12.23\00:38:15.73
animals and whoever else because
the whole world is going to be
00:38:15.73\00:38:19.56
sunk in a flood.
00:38:19.56\00:38:20.83
And for 120 years you're telling
people about this, year after
00:38:20.83\00:38:24.23
year, month after month you're
telling people there's a flood
00:38:24.23\00:38:26.36
coming there's a flood coming.
00:38:26.36\00:38:27.60
So there's this exercise of
faith that Noah has also faith
00:38:27.60\00:38:30.93
in God and what God
says verses what the rest of
00:38:30.93\00:38:33.60
the world is telling you
which is the same principle that
00:38:33.60\00:38:36.23
you're looking at I think
all the way through the story.
00:38:36.23\00:38:38.13
In other words God is restoring
us to Genesis where we trust him
00:38:38.13\00:38:41.16
over everything else.
00:38:41.16\00:38:42.63
Satan is infiltrating all
of the way the world thinks the
00:38:42.63\00:38:47.60
philosophy of the word
the customs everything.
00:38:47.60\00:38:50.06
And getting us not to
believe what God says.
00:38:50.06\00:38:52.93
And generation after generation
you have people individuals who
00:38:52.93\00:38:57.13
trust who have to trust by
faith in what God says over what
00:38:57.13\00:39:00.30
everything the world tells them.
00:39:00.30\00:39:01.80
--Yeah yeah.
00:39:01.80\00:39:02.50
We have to take another break.
00:39:02.50\00:39:05.00
Those are great thoughts and
Genesis is so rich you just want
00:39:05.00\00:39:08.50
to pause and look
at every single story.
00:39:08.50\00:39:11.00
I don't know where we're going
to go from here but I really
00:39:11.00\00:39:13.66
have an interest in beginning to
flush out the contrast between
00:39:13.66\00:39:20.50
the tower of Babel experience
and this guy called Abraham.
00:39:20.50\00:39:24.90
So we'll just start doing
that right after the break.
00:39:24.90\00:39:26.46
Digma videos are short engaging
messages designed for opening up
00:39:28.16\00:39:32.13
discussion with individuals and
groups regarding the character
00:39:32.13\00:39:35.66
of God.
00:39:35.66\00:39:36.73
As well as for your own
personal spiritual growth.
00:39:36.73\00:39:38.93
For your free DVDample
collection of Digma videos call
00:39:38.93\00:39:42.80
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00:39:42.80\00:39:46.33
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00:39:46.33\00:39:51.53
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00:39:51.53\00:39:53.63
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00:39:53.63\00:39:57.53
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00:40:02.13\00:40:07.50
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00:40:07.50\00:40:09.76
Simply ask for Digma DVD 1.
00:40:09.76\00:40:11.83
So there we are in
Genesis 1 through what 6?
00:40:12.93\00:40:16.43
We came right through Noah
and we're definitely giving a
00:40:16.43\00:40:18.70
sketch.
00:40:18.70\00:40:19.40
We are not going into details.
00:40:19.40\00:40:20.90
And that's intentional.
00:40:20.90\00:40:23.20
We want to see what's taking
place what the principle's are
00:40:23.20\00:40:27.90
that are at play in the
unfolding narrative of scripture
00:40:27.90\00:40:32.76
here.
00:40:32.76\00:40:34.03
So when we come to the period
after the flood and we come into
00:40:34.03\00:40:38.90
chapters 10 and 11 there is an
empire that's being built on the
00:40:38.90\00:40:43.86
premise of the false conception
of the character of God and it's
00:40:43.86\00:40:47.86
called Babylon.
00:40:47.86\00:40:49.13
You have this guy in chapter
10 named Nimrod who's brought to
00:40:49.13\00:40:52.63
you first of all in verse 8
and Nimrod is a name names have
00:40:52.63\00:40:57.66
significance in scripture.
00:40:57.66\00:40:58.96
The name Nimrod just
means rebellious or rebel.
00:40:58.96\00:41:01.90
And so we have somebody here who
is now going to systematizes and
00:41:01.90\00:41:08.36
incorporate the false
picture of God in a system.
00:41:08.36\00:41:12.76
--Yeah it says he began to
be a mighty one on the earth.
00:41:12.76\00:41:16.13
And it says that he was going to
build what it's saying in verse
00:41:16.13\00:41:21.16
10 of chapter 10 a kingdom.
00:41:21.16\00:41:23.96
--The beginning of
his kingdom was Babel.
00:41:23.96\00:41:25.60
--Ok so we've got an
empire that's being built here.
00:41:25.60\00:41:28.36
--Or Babylon.
00:41:28.36\00:41:29.36
--On the premise of
the false picture of God.
00:41:29.36\00:41:31.76
This is significant because
as we move forward and of course
00:41:31.76\00:41:34.43
we'll come back.
00:41:34.43\00:41:35.63
As we move forward in the
biblical story all the way to
00:41:35.63\00:41:39.03
the book of Revelation
we have corporate powers.
00:41:39.03\00:41:44.00
We have state powers and
religious powers that are
00:41:44.00\00:41:46.53
corporate conglomerates of
people in nations and religious
00:41:46.53\00:41:51.86
systems that are acting
out the picture of God that was
00:41:51.86\00:41:58.03
initiated by the fall.
00:41:58.03\00:41:59.73
--And just a quick little
picture of what Babel this Babel
00:41:59.73\00:42:04.03
this kingdom if you look at
Daniel 4 in verse 30 later on in
00:42:04.03\00:42:08.03
the biblical narrative and in
the history there's a king here
00:42:08.03\00:42:11.73
that's the king of Babylon and
he says in Daniel 4:30 is not
00:42:11.73\00:42:16.40
this great Babylon that I have
built for a royal dwelling by my
00:42:16.40\00:42:21.70
mighty power and for
the honor of my majesty.
00:42:21.70\00:42:24.96
So it becomes now a
symbol of what I do.
00:42:24.96\00:42:28.73
--Self-exultation.
00:42:28.73\00:42:30.00
--Yeah what man does and then
they build this tower and you
00:42:30.00\00:42:34.23
know interestingly immediately
following this flood that God
00:42:34.23\00:42:38.86
initiates, now
they build this tower.
00:42:38.86\00:42:41.00
There's a message there
obviously there's a message that
00:42:41.00\00:42:44.40
they're sending to God.
00:42:44.40\00:42:45.66
--Well let me ask the question
this way what's the psychology
00:42:45.66\00:42:47.43
behind the building
of the tower of Babel?
00:42:47.43\00:42:49.60
What's going on in the
minds of the people who are
00:42:49.60\00:42:55.16
--verse 4
00:42:55.16\00:42:55.83
--doing this?
00:42:55.83\00:42:57.10
--Genesis 11 verse 4 and they
said go to let us build a city
00:42:57.10\00:42:59.86
and a tower whose top may reach
unto heaven and let us make a
00:42:59.86\00:43:04.10
name that we
00:43:04.10\00:43:05.23
--for ourselves.
00:43:05.23\00:43:06.43
--In case we're scattered abroad
upon the face of the whole
00:43:06.43\00:43:08.13
earth.
00:43:08.13\00:43:09.33
In case another flood comes
we need to build a tower that
00:43:09.33\00:43:10.50
reaches to heaven so that
we can save ourselves and also
00:43:10.50\00:43:13.63
--build a name.
00:43:13.63\00:43:14.80
[Crosstalk]
00:43:14.80\00:43:16.70
--Does King James say
there in 4 a name for ourselves?
00:43:16.70\00:43:19.76
Let us make a
name for ourselves?
00:43:19.76\00:43:21.13
--Let us make a name let us make
us a name us make us a name.
00:43:21.13\00:43:25.43
--Ok yeah in the New King James
most modern translations just
00:43:25.43\00:43:28.83
let us make a name for ourselves
just let us make us a name.
00:43:28.83\00:43:33.26
Well that's kind of a
clever way of saying that.
00:43:33.26\00:43:34.86
But the idea here.
00:43:34.86\00:43:36.50
--King James is very
clever in translation.
00:43:36.50\00:43:38.86
[Laughter]
00:43:38.86\00:43:41.96
Some people can't
even understand it.
00:43:41.96\00:43:43.16
--In answer to your question
it is patently self-centered.
00:43:43.16\00:43:45.63
--Yeah that's right.
00:43:45.63\00:43:46.26
--That was your question.
00:43:46.26\00:43:47.50
--My question was what's the
psychology behind the building
00:43:47.50\00:43:50.40
of the tower of Babel.
00:43:50.40\00:43:51.33
--We're going to
make a name for ourselves.
00:43:51.33\00:43:52.26
--Yes.
00:43:52.26\00:43:53.26
-It's self-exultation
and self-preservation.
00:43:53.26\00:43:55.23
--Oh you gotta put those
2 down self-exultation and
00:43:55.23\00:43:58.86
self-preservation.
00:43:58.86\00:44:00.16
And the name Nimrod itself I
loved when you said names have
00:44:00.16\00:44:03.63
significance in the bible.
00:44:03.63\00:44:04.76
The name means
rebel or rebellion.
00:44:04.76\00:44:06.76
Presupposes that God is the kind
of God that you should want to
00:44:06.76\00:44:11.63
rebel against.
00:44:11.63\00:44:12.23
--Yeah.
00:44:12.23\00:44:13.46
--He's building an empire based
on the false picture of God
00:44:13.46\00:44:18.80
initiated in Genesis 3 alright.
00:44:18.80\00:44:21.40
--And we've gotta say here again
this is not just something that
00:44:21.40\00:44:23.36
David and Ty and James and
Jeffery are just extracting from
00:44:23.36\00:44:26.83
the text.
00:44:26.83\00:44:27.96
This is where the whole
scriptural narrative goes and it
00:44:27.96\00:44:30.60
takes Babylon
this is the language.
00:44:30.60\00:44:33.43
They start using
Babylon as this very thing.
00:44:33.43\00:44:35.60
You get to Daniel 4 which
you did and then you get to
00:44:35.60\00:44:37.33
Revelation and it's this
monolithic man made man centered
00:44:37.33\00:44:42.16
self exultation
self preservation system.
00:44:42.16\00:44:45.60
So this isn't just something hey
that's kind of an interesting
00:44:45.60\00:44:47.53
thing look at the name of
Nimrod and they made a name for
00:44:47.53\00:44:48.96
themselves.
00:44:48.96\00:44:50.10
That's the point that scripture
itself is going to make.
00:44:50.10\00:44:52.13
--I think there's something also
very significant here and that
00:44:52.13\00:44:55.86
is this we want to paint this in
the context of the character of
00:44:55.86\00:44:59.80
God because anyone reading this
could say well wait a minute you
00:44:59.80\00:45:02.76
know it says right here in verse
6 the Lord said unto you know
00:45:02.76\00:45:07.56
them behold the people as one
and they have all one language.
00:45:07.56\00:45:10.43
And this they began to do
now there's nothing that can be
00:45:10.43\00:45:14.53
restrained from them,
which they have imagine.
00:45:14.53\00:45:15.96
In other words they can
do anything when they band
00:45:15.96\00:45:18.03
together.
00:45:18.03\00:45:18.93
And we don't want
them to do anything.
00:45:18.93\00:45:20.16
If you look at that in the eyes
of Satan it's the same thing
00:45:20.16\00:45:23.13
Satan is saying.
00:45:23.13\00:45:24.26
Oh you'll be as God's and
you can accomplish anything.
00:45:24.26\00:45:25.50
So God says let's go down
and confound the language.
00:45:25.50\00:45:28.40
And the whole idea you can get
from this if you're looking at
00:45:28.40\00:45:30.80
it through Satan's eyes is God
wants to withhold us from doing
00:45:30.80\00:45:35.03
anything that we can imagine.
00:45:35.03\00:45:36.16
But here's what's really
powerful you move into the story
00:45:36.16\00:45:39.03
of Abraham which is a contrast
to this and God says in Genesis
00:45:39.03\00:45:43.20
chapter 12 and I'm just
gonna jump here for a second.
00:45:43.20\00:45:46.80
I'm sure we're going to
attack this in a minute.
00:45:46.80\00:45:49.00
God says to Abraham I will make
of thee a great nation and I
00:45:49.00\00:45:53.33
will bless thee and make thy
name great and thou shalt be a
00:45:53.33\00:45:58.03
blessing.
00:45:58.03\00:45:59.30
The big difference between
Babylon and Abraham between the
00:45:59.30\00:46:02.70
God of scripture and the way
God is painted is not that god
00:46:02.70\00:46:05.90
doesn't want us to be blessed
and be great and be great in the
00:46:05.90\00:46:09.60
earth.
00:46:09.60\00:46:10.86
But He wants us to do it in the
context of being a blessing to
00:46:10.86\00:46:12.66
others rather than in the
context of making a name for
00:46:12.66\00:46:15.70
ourselves.
00:46:15.70\00:46:16.20
--Yeah amen.
00:46:16.20\00:46:16.93
--Great point.
00:46:16.93\00:46:17.46
--Amen amen.
00:46:17.46\00:46:19.26
--There's that wisdom.
00:46:19.26\00:46:20.70
--So we said that words
have significant well names.
00:46:20.70\00:46:23.73
Nimrod means rebel and
we've got the Tower of Babel.
00:46:23.73\00:46:27.10
Babel means confusion and of
course in the immediate context
00:46:27.10\00:46:31.20
of the story the word refers to
the confusing of the languages.
00:46:31.20\00:46:36.53
But that takes on significance
as the story unfolds in
00:46:36.53\00:46:40.33
scripture so that the Babylon
of the book of Revelation in the
00:46:40.33\00:46:44.56
New Testament isn't merely
the confusion of languages it's
00:46:44.56\00:46:49.10
confusion regarding
the character of God.
00:46:49.10\00:46:51.96
It's religious.
00:46:51.96\00:46:53.60
It's theological.
00:46:53.60\00:46:54.46
--It's ideological.
00:46:54.46\00:46:55.30
--Ideological confusion.
00:46:55.30\00:46:56.70
There's a fog that has settled
upon the character of God and
00:46:56.70\00:47:02.56
human beings are doing the only
thing they can do in the light
00:47:02.56\00:47:07.50
of the fact that they're
deceived regarding God and that
00:47:07.50\00:47:10.73
is to live for themselves
to exalt themselves to preserve
00:47:10.73\00:47:14.46
themselves because God is
not perceived as a Savior.
00:47:14.46\00:47:19.53
You can't trust him.
00:47:19.53\00:47:21.23
He's not looking out for your
best interest because He's not
00:47:21.23\00:47:26.80
going to do it.
00:47:26.80\00:47:27.96
--Isn't that interesting?
00:47:27.96\00:47:29.50
I think it's interesting that in
that context you have language
00:47:29.50\00:47:34.10
being a symbol of right
religious thinking and wrong
00:47:34.10\00:47:38.33
religious thinking.
00:47:38.33\00:47:39.76
--So you have people naming
their children or having names
00:47:39.76\00:47:43.76
that God later changes when they
have a different theological
00:47:43.76\00:47:46.83
understanding of who God is.
00:47:46.83\00:47:48.90
So the confusion of the
languages in the Old Testament
00:47:48.90\00:47:51.63
also has this theological
relationship to God and
00:47:51.63\00:47:56.46
righteousness by faith.
00:47:56.46\00:47:57.53
--Yeah which
takes us to chapter 12.
00:47:57.53\00:47:59.96
Are you in chapter 12?
00:47:59.96\00:48:01.26
--I'm in 12 the point that
you brought out Ty that I loved
00:48:01.26\00:48:02.70
there was that they're deceived.
00:48:02.70\00:48:05.06
That's the point.
00:48:05.06\00:48:06.60
I've said this to you I think
recently Ty and maybe to you
00:48:06.60\00:48:09.50
Jeffrey as well I don't know if
you've heard me say it James but
00:48:09.50\00:48:11.23
I read a paper recently by
Dr. Richard Davidson in which he
00:48:11.23\00:48:13.93
basically says that all of
scripture is a commentary on
00:48:13.93\00:48:18.30
Genesis chapters 1 to 3.
00:48:18.30\00:48:20.43
So basically Genesis 1, 2 and 3
is the point and then everything
00:48:20.43\00:48:24.26
after that is largely commentary
on the themes that are already.
00:48:24.26\00:48:28.13
--I just watched a video a
Pastor/Preacher just did a video
00:48:28.13\00:48:31.86
same point.
00:48:31.86\00:48:33.10
That very point so here we
are how are these guys, Cain and
00:48:33.10\00:48:36.96
Able.
00:48:36.96\00:48:38.23
Cain related to God in the way
that Adam and Eve related to God
00:48:38.23\00:48:40.83
here relating to the way
relating to the way relating to
00:48:40.83\00:48:42.96
the way.
00:48:42.96\00:48:43.83
And when we get
to the New Testament.
00:48:43.83\00:48:44.76
--Lineage they're
passing the seed down.
00:48:44.76\00:48:46.63
--Exactly.
00:48:46.63\00:48:47.83
When we get to the New Testament
Paul says in what is it 2
00:48:47.83\00:48:49.90
Corinthians 4 he says that the
God of this world blinded their
00:48:49.90\00:48:54.70
minds.
00:48:54.70\00:48:55.93
So we're just
singing the same song.
00:48:55.93\00:48:57.20
--Yeah it's like
Genesis are the roots.
00:48:57.20\00:48:59.33
--Have changed but the
lyrics have not changed.
00:48:59.33\00:49:01.00
Genesis you know when you have a
seed plant it goes root it goes
00:49:01.00\00:49:04.13
down first then it goes up.
00:49:04.13\00:49:05.56
Genesis are the roots.
00:49:05.56\00:49:06.43
That's what this
program is called.
00:49:06.43\00:49:07.40
It's called roots.
00:49:07.40\00:49:08.66
Genesis is the roots and out of
those roots comes this whole New
00:49:08.66\00:49:11.26
Testament rest of the
Old Testament New Testament.
00:49:11.26\00:49:13.96
It all goes back
down to those roots.
00:49:13.96\00:49:16.06
--I think that at this point you
already jumped the gun and you
00:49:16.06\00:49:20.06
beat me to Genesis 12.
00:49:20.06\00:49:21.66
But I think it would be really
powerful if we can just talk
00:49:21.66\00:49:26.76
about the call of Abraham as a
response to this warped picture
00:49:26.76\00:49:34.26
of God in Genesis chapter 11.
00:49:34.26\00:49:35.83
I think you said just by
virtue of the fact that they're
00:49:35.83\00:49:38.66
rebelling against
God you said this.
00:49:38.66\00:49:39.93
It assumes that God is the type
of God that we should that we
00:49:39.93\00:49:45.56
would even want to rebel against
which automatically tells you.
00:49:45.56\00:49:49.06
--That's not the
God of scripture.
00:49:49.06\00:49:50.30
--They're rebelling against
a God but it's not the God of
00:49:50.30\00:49:52.70
scripture.
00:49:52.70\00:49:53.53
--It's the God of
their imagination.
00:49:53.53\00:49:54.76
--The God they're rebelling
against doesn't even exist as
00:49:54.76\00:49:57.30
far as the Bible is concerned.
00:49:57.30\00:49:58.23
--It's the one
that Satan has painted.
00:49:58.23\00:49:59.70
--Well the God yeah the God
they're rebelling against is the
00:49:59.70\00:50:03.20
Devil masquerading as God.
00:50:03.20\00:50:05.20
--Yeah so now so now with
that backdrop Abraham is called.
00:50:05.20\00:50:12.26
It's so powerful because you
have this big problem chapter 11
00:50:12.26\00:50:15.53
closes and God doesn't throw us
a solution on the table like ok
00:50:15.53\00:50:20.56
so God what are you going to do?
00:50:20.56\00:50:21.60
--Right.
00:50:21.60\00:50:22.86
--And then it's almost like the
scene the camera changes and now
00:50:22.86\00:50:25.63
it shifts to this dude
named Abram whoever he is.
00:50:25.63\00:50:29.13
--Abram.
00:50:29.13\00:50:30.10
--And God is
calling him out, right?
00:50:30.10\00:50:34.86
Of this situation of
this mess of this chaos.
00:50:34.86\00:50:37.86
--I'm glad you said it
that way calling him out of this
00:50:37.86\00:50:40.16
situation this mess this chaos.
00:50:40.16\00:50:42.23
Because it's not God's not just
coming to Abraham and saying hey
00:50:42.23\00:50:45.93
I've got a better
neighborhood for you to live in.
00:50:45.93\00:50:47.56
--It's not the geography.
00:50:47.56\00:50:48.83
We're talking He is about
to embark on an ideological.
00:50:48.83\00:50:54.60
--Theological,
psychological, emotional.
00:50:54.60\00:50:56.83
--All of that all get called
whatever everyone you can think
00:50:56.83\00:51:01.30
of on a journey right?
00:51:01.30\00:51:02.56
He's going on a journey but what
I think is really powerful here
00:51:02.56\00:51:06.36
is that and this is to jump way
ahead of ourselves He calls him
00:51:06.36\00:51:11.06
out, out of his fathers house,
out of his nation, out of his
00:51:11.06\00:51:14.93
and the powerful thing is here
you have an embryo everything
00:51:14.93\00:51:20.40
that represents this thing
we call the church because the
00:51:20.40\00:51:23.96
church that word is ecclesia
which means the called out ones.
00:51:23.96\00:51:27.33
So right here we're going to
see the seed of what will take a
00:51:27.33\00:51:33.13
great part of the Old Testament
in you, the church of the Old
00:51:33.13\00:51:36.10
Testament, Israel
and of the New Testament.
00:51:36.10\00:51:38.53
--Called out of religious
confusion and rebellion against
00:51:38.53\00:51:40.76
a God that doesn't even exist.
00:51:40.76\00:51:41.90
--And that's God's answer
to His being misrepresented.
00:51:41.90\00:51:45.43
--Well either way I don't know
what hill was cause he was 75
00:51:45.43\00:51:48.16
what hill was he
on when he got called?
00:51:48.16\00:51:50.00
He was 75 years old we are
talking about you know over the
00:51:50.00\00:51:52.20
hill.
00:51:52.20\00:51:52.70
[Laughter]
00:51:52.70\00:51:54.33
--It's like Mariah
Karma I was like ok ok.
00:51:54.33\00:51:56.40
--Check this out you guys
back in chapter 11 we're told in
00:51:56.40\00:51:59.46
verses 26, 27, 28
where Abraham is from.
00:51:59.46\00:52:04.63
He just happens
to be from Babylon.
00:52:04.63\00:52:07.30
--Wow.
00:52:07.30\00:52:08.20
--He's raised in
Ur of the Chaldean's.
00:52:08.20\00:52:11.20
He's from Babylon.
00:52:11.20\00:52:12.43
That's his home.
00:52:12.43\00:52:13.26
That's where his
root structure is.
00:52:13.26\00:52:14.76
--He went to
Babylon State University.
00:52:14.76\00:52:16.26
He was educated.
00:52:16.26\00:52:17.33
--Yes.
00:52:17.33\00:52:18.10
--His culture.
00:52:18.10\00:52:18.86
--His roots are there.
00:52:18.86\00:52:20.36
Then you come to chapter 12
after you learn in chapter 11
00:52:20.36\00:52:23.63
that there's this guy named
Abram who lives in Babylon you
00:52:23.63\00:52:27.60
come to chapter 12 verse 1
through 3 now the Lord said to
00:52:27.60\00:52:30.36
Abram get out.
00:52:30.36\00:52:31.76
Get out of your country
from your family and from your
00:52:31.76\00:52:36.56
father's house to a
land that I will show you.
00:52:36.56\00:52:39.33
I will make you a great nation
and I will bless you and make
00:52:39.33\00:52:45.93
your name great and
you shall be a blessing.
00:52:45.93\00:52:50.26
I will bless
those who bless you.
00:52:50.26\00:52:52.16
I will curse
those who curse you.
00:52:52.16\00:52:53.70
And in you will all the families
of the earth shall be blessed.
00:52:53.70\00:52:58.30
Now check this out.
00:52:58.30\00:53:00.50
You're on to it here.
00:53:00.50\00:53:02.56
There's additional scripture
here that tells us what he's
00:53:02.56\00:53:05.66
coming out of.
00:53:05.66\00:53:06.90
Just hold your hand right there
in Genesis 12 and go over to
00:53:06.90\00:53:10.40
Joshua 24.
00:53:10.40\00:53:12.36
And this is very very explicit
in telling us exactly what God
00:53:12.36\00:53:19.03
is calling Abram
out of chapter 24.
00:53:19.03\00:53:22.53
--Say amen when you're there.
00:53:22.53\00:53:23.36
[Laughter]
00:53:23.36\00:53:25.03
--Chapter 24.
00:53:25.03\00:53:26.23
--Get him a pulpit.
00:53:26.23\00:53:27.50
--Of Joshua verse 2 and Joshua
said to all the people thus says
00:53:27.50\00:53:32.03
the Lord God of Israel
your fathers including Terah the
00:53:32.03\00:53:36.23
father of Abraham the father of
Nachor dwelt on the other side
00:53:36.23\00:53:43.50
of the river in old times
and they served other Gods.
00:53:43.50\00:53:48.83
That's the point.
00:53:48.83\00:53:50.36
Babylon is religion in chapter
11 and there are gods that are
00:53:50.36\00:53:59.03
being served.
00:53:59.03\00:54:00.30
There is a theological paradigm
that Abraham is raised in.
00:54:00.30\00:54:06.66
So when God comes to him he's
not just saying hey Abraham get
00:54:06.66\00:54:10.33
out of your geographical
location to another geographical
00:54:10.33\00:54:14.03
location.
00:54:14.03\00:54:15.30
He's saying Abraham get out
of the entire cultural religious
00:54:15.30\00:54:20.63
theological ideological paradigm
that is part and parcel of that
00:54:20.63\00:54:26.50
worship system.
00:54:26.50\00:54:28.16
--Right.
00:54:28.16\00:54:29.43
--He's calling him out from one
theology into another theology.
00:54:29.43\00:54:33.86
And theology's a word that can
sound rather stoic and distant
00:54:33.86\00:54:38.70
and sterile.
00:54:38.70\00:54:39.66
When we say theology
we mean picture of God.
00:54:39.66\00:54:42.86
Yeah theo is God and we're
talking here picture of God.
00:54:42.86\00:54:46.46
He's calling him out of
one picture of God into a new
00:54:46.46\00:54:49.40
picture of God.
00:54:49.40\00:54:50.63
So the story that unfolds I
think that one way we can say
00:54:50.63\00:54:55.76
this is the story of Abraham is
a series of encounters with the
00:54:55.76\00:55:03.03
one and only true God that
is liberating or emancipating
00:55:03.03\00:55:07.86
Abraham from the false
picture of God that was in his
00:55:07.86\00:55:14.20
upbringing in his culture.
00:55:14.20\00:55:16.40
So Abraham I'm calling you out
of Babylon and now I'm going to
00:55:16.40\00:55:20.23
get Babylon out of you.
00:55:20.23\00:55:21.86
That's what's going
on here in the story.
00:55:21.86\00:55:24.36
--It's good I like that.
00:55:24.36\00:55:25.46
--So there's a series of
encounters that Abraham has.
00:55:25.46\00:55:28.40
The first encounter is
right here we've read it.
00:55:28.40\00:55:30.40
God this God is different.
00:55:30.40\00:55:33.63
This God is saying I'm calling
you out not to be an elitist
00:55:33.63\00:55:39.16
separatist person and people.
00:55:39.16\00:55:41.53
I'm calling you out to be a
blessing to all the families of
00:55:41.53\00:55:46.06
the earth.
00:55:46.06\00:55:47.26
The whole world is in God's
view to be positively impacted.
00:55:47.26\00:55:52.96
So this isn't the beginning
of a new nation for the sake of
00:55:52.96\00:55:58.73
separation.
00:55:58.73\00:56:00.33
This is the beginning of
something new for the sake of
00:56:00.33\00:56:02.73
integration for invasion if
you will on the theological or
00:56:02.73\00:56:08.33
picture of God level.
00:56:08.33\00:56:09.76
I'm calling you out
Abraham to send you in.
00:56:09.76\00:56:12.50
--Yep.
00:56:12.50\00:56:13.36
--This is an epic
divine intervention.
00:56:13.36\00:56:17.76
I love that.
00:56:17.76\00:56:18.96
The call of Abraham is an
intervention on God's behalf to
00:56:18.96\00:56:21.73
rescue human culture from just
from this darkness in Genesis
00:56:21.73\00:56:25.73
11.
00:56:25.73\00:56:26.96
--You know just based on the
landscape or the architecture of
00:56:26.96\00:56:30.53
the book of Genesis that what Ty
was just saying is exactly the
00:56:30.53\00:56:33.33
case because to get from Genesis
chapter 1 to Genesis chapter 11
00:56:33.33\00:56:38.46
you cover some 1500 to
2000 years of earths history.
00:56:38.46\00:56:41.83
I mean a huge swath of
earth's history in 11 chapters.
00:56:41.83\00:56:46.76
But then as soon as you get to
Genesis chapter 12 and there's
00:56:46.76\00:56:49.16
of course 50
chapters in Genesis.
00:56:49.16\00:56:50.60
That's 39 total chapters you're
covering a period of say 200
00:56:50.60\00:56:53.93
years of human history.
00:56:53.93\00:56:55.30
So Moses I can just imagine.
00:56:55.30\00:56:57.50
--Puts the brakes on.
00:56:57.50\00:56:58.70
--Moses the writer of Genesis
he's just he's racing he's
00:56:58.70\00:57:02.36
bringing his themes and
his lines and his points.
00:57:02.36\00:57:04.73
But he's racing
to get to the point.
00:57:04.73\00:57:06.63
--Wow.
00:57:06.63\00:57:07.40
--He's in a hurry to get done.
00:57:07.40\00:57:08.66
--And the point is to get to
Abraham because the I want to
00:57:08.66\00:57:11.46
say 2 things on that for Moses
and for the rest of scripture
00:57:11.46\00:57:14.60
the call of Abraham is
the answer to the sin of Adam.
00:57:14.60\00:57:18.30
For this reason among others the
garden was lost in Genesis 3.
00:57:18.30\00:57:25.23
And the first thing that he says
because remember he gave him the
00:57:25.23\00:57:28.83
land.
00:57:28.83\00:57:30.06
God gave him the land and said
be fruitful and multiply the
00:57:30.06\00:57:31.06
land fill it.
00:57:31.06\00:57:32.30
So when God calls Abraham he
says you'll get the land back.
00:57:32.30\00:57:36.30
And you'll get
descendants to fill it.
00:57:36.30\00:57:38.13
God here is saying what I
tried to do in Adam didn't work.
00:57:38.13\00:57:42.30
I tried to do in Noah too by
the way we didn't spend a lot of
00:57:42.30\00:57:44.73
time on that.
00:57:44.73\00:57:45.16
But he said
00:57:45.16\00:57:45.60
--Same thing.
00:57:45.60\00:57:46.56
--Same thing so he
says here you're my guy.
00:57:46.56\00:57:47.83
And then Abraham for the rest
of scripture both Old and New
00:57:47.83\00:57:51.13
Testaments becomes the normative
figure as to how we should
00:57:51.13\00:57:55.33
understand and relate to God.
00:57:55.33\00:57:56.76
And I love what you said there
a series of you said some word.
00:57:56.76\00:58:00.30
--Encounter.
00:58:00.30\00:58:01.56
--A series of encounters that
are revolutionalizing not just
00:58:01.56\00:58:05.06
his idea of but for down
we're living in Abrahams wake.
00:58:05.06\00:58:09.03
And Moses was intentional.
00:58:09.03\00:58:12.46
He was getting to the point.
00:58:12.46\00:58:14.06
And for him the point was
the connection that God had with
00:58:14.06\00:58:17.43
Abraham and Abraham with God.
00:58:17.43\00:58:18.90
The rest of scripture
just unfolds that picture.
00:58:20.13\00:58:22.63
--So the God of scripture that
we encounter in Genesis is can
00:58:22.63\00:58:28.76
we say it this
way is evangelistic.
00:58:28.76\00:58:30.43
Let's say it.
00:58:31.40\00:58:32.10
--Well he has a message to send.
00:58:32.10\00:58:33.16
--Let's say it less religious.
00:58:33.16\00:58:34.40
This God loves people and is
pursuing people and in Abraham
00:58:34.40\00:58:40.00
he's forging out a vehicle
through which the world can be
00:58:40.00\00:58:46.06
reached with the truth
regarding who he really is.
00:58:46.06\00:58:50.36
--Yeah one word.
00:58:50.36\00:58:51.10
God is inclusive.
00:58:51.10\00:58:53.73
--Rather than exclusive.
00:58:53.73\00:58:54.86
--Rather that exclusive.
00:58:54.86\00:58:55.43
--There ya go.
00:58:55.43\00:58:56.66
--He is inclusive of the whole
and all these religions that
00:58:56.66\00:58:58.26
have you know misunderstood him
and when you have people caught
00:58:58.26\00:59:02.83
up that generation whatever
that misunderstand they become
00:59:02.83\00:59:05.60
exclusive.
00:59:05.60\00:59:06.90
But God has
always been one of equal.
00:59:06.90\00:59:08.43
--I like that language.
00:59:08.43\00:59:09.56
Yeah we're gonna have to
pick up this discussion again.
00:59:09.56\00:59:13.33
But wow.
00:59:14.76\00:59:16.23
Abraham is quite a story
and there's more here that we're
00:59:16.23\00:59:19.36
gonna flush out.
00:59:19.36\00:59:20.13
[Music]
00:59:20.13\00:59:30.16
[Music]
00:59:30.16\00:59:44.76