Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeff Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000014
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00:01 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:20 I guess we can say is that this is table talk season 2. 00:24 --Season 2 00:25 -- We can say that because it's true. 00:26 -- It's true. 00:27 [Laughter] 00:28 First season, 13-part series we had titled The Big Picture 00:33 Series. 00:34 -- I remember it well. 00:35 --And now we have made a pretty deliberate choice that now we 00:37 want to do something we're calling the Righteousness By 00:39 Faith Series. 00:41 But before we get right into it, it's good to see you guys. 00:43 --Yeah it's good to be here. 00:45 -- And you know I was just thinking when you said that 00:46 because probably people that watch the program and think, oh 00:49 they spend a lot of time together. 00:51 -- They probably room together. 00:52 [Laughter] 00:53 But the truth is that you've been traveling, you've been 00:56 traveling, we've all been traveling, you've been 00:58 traveling, I've just got back. 01:00 And, it's true; it's good to be at the table with my boys. 01:02 --Yeah, yeah. 01:03 James is actually temporarily living in California. 01:06 --That's why he looks so... 01:07 -- Southern California. 01:08 -- Tan. 01:10 -- Loving the weather. 01:11 --Not so tall plenty dark and plenty handsome. 01:13 Jeffery, you're just getting back from Orlando and David was 01:17 also in Orlando. 01:19 -- I was there. 01:20 -- Yeah, we were at a conference. 01:21 -- We did the GYC thing. 01:22 --How did that go? 01:23 -- It was awesome. 01:24 Jeffery preached the evening meetings. 01:25 I did a seminar. 01:26 -- How was your preaching on a scale from 1-10 Jeffery? 01:28 -- He can't answer; let me answer it for him 01:30 [crosstalk] 01:32 --That's a trap. 01:33 You are trying to incure the curse of the Lord upon me and 01:35 I'm not going to bite. 01:36 -- Okay. 01:37 -- His sermons were excellent I was there. 01:38 Content was fantastic. 01:39 It's not easy to preach in that venue because there's just 01:42 thousands of people there. 01:44 And there's lights, camera, action kind of a thing. 01:47 It's the opposite of this situation right here. 01:50 You can actually see people. 01:51 It's intimate it's close. 01:52 And he did a fantastic job. 01:53 And the Lord blessed that's the most important thing. 01:55 -- And you did a seminar. 01:56 --I did the seminar yeah it was awesome. 01:57 It was on it was called God at war creation 02:01 --Do you remember? 02:02 It was on 02:03 --No no no Creation conflict and covenant and it was awesome. 02:05 Actually one of the highlights for me honestly was not just the 02:08 seminar content but I had a number of musicians that came in 02:12 and sang songs at the beginning. 02:14 -- Who? 02:15 -- Friends, just friends of mine. 02:16 Billie Otto, and John Malay would come in 02:18 -- Shout out to our boys. 02:19 --Yeah shout out to our boys. 02:21 And man they sang some beautiful songs. 02:22 Both as opening songs and his introduction. 02:24 Just the fellowship. 02:25 -- Just to be with your people, it was great. 02:29 -- Excellent. 02:30 I'm just getting back from Czech Republic. 02:32 And Poland, actually it was two trips, went over came back, went 02:36 over again and came back. 02:37 -- It was not warm. 02:38 -- It was very cold Jeffery, very cold there. 02:40 In fact in Poland and I don't say this as a criticism at all 02:45 it was fun they drop me off at the hotel as I was picked up at 02:48 the airport and then they handed me a map and said the place 02:51 where your speaking each day twice a day you need to make 02:54 this journey. 02:55 It's over there here's the map. 02:57 It's a twenty-minute walk and it was blizzard weather there. 03:03 --Oh mercy. 03:04 -- And I didn't even think to bring a jacket for some reason 03:06 so it's just me my suit and tie and leather bottom shoes. 03:11 --You always have your tie with you. 03:12 --Skating on the ice. 03:13 --So your preaching was raw. 03:14 Your preaching was raw because you 03:15 --That's right. 03:16 --I was I was. 03:17 --Did you get sick? 03:18 -- No I didn't. 03:19 -- Oh, great. 03:20 -- Actually I love feeling the wild elements of nature. 03:24 -- Yeah I'm the same way. 03:25 -- You hear that Jeffery, I'm the same way. 03:28 -- Jeffery likes to stay in the house. 03:29 -- I'm the same way. 03:30 I love the outdoors. 03:31 --He's passionate about the outdoors. 03:32 -- Passionate. 03:33 -- You like the window down, you mean. 03:34 -- So we're back in season 2. 03:36 We are at the table. 03:37 And we want to invite all of those who are listening in to 03:40 this conversation to...by the way we've got a lot of positive 03:42 feedback from this series. 03:44 --Amen. 03:45 --When we first sort of visioned it and talked about it it was 03:46 like would anybody listen to four guys talking about Jesus? 03:49 And apparently it's awesome. 03:52 I mean people are really enjoying it. 03:53 I just got a tweet from Kimberly in Kentucky. 03:58 I mean just now as we're doing this program. 03:59 And she says that she loves the series because it's relaxing and 04:05 its different perspectives on the Word. 04:06 But Jesus is the center. 04:08 -- I love the relaxing part. 04:10 [Crosstalk] 04:11 -- Did she say it's relaxing or it's relaxed? 04:12 -- She said it's relaxed. 04:14 -- Yeah. 04:15 --Yeah, in other words it doesn't put her to sleep. 04:16 --We're actually trying to encourage people in doing this 04:20 to sit around the table, sit around in houses and cafe's 04:25 anywhere and just fellowship around the Word of God. 04:28 --Amen. 04:29 --Just having conversations so that's the goal. 04:31 -- In other words anyone can do what we're doing. 04:32 -- Yeah. 04:33 -- And we encourage it. 04:34 -- This series we're calling The Righteousness By Faith 04:36 Series,and just at the outset I have to say it's not the most 04:40 fabulous title for some ears probably... 04:44 -- But it's the most fabulous idea. 04:46 -- It's the most fabulous idea ever ever launched in the world. 04:50 It's incredible actually. 04:51 But it sounds kind of technical kind of in house kind of churchy 04:55 for those who may not be familiar with the language. 04:58 So maybe we should begin the discussion on righteousness by 05:03 faith by just breaking down what that terminology means. 05:07 When we say righteousness by faith what do we mean? 05:11 -- What are we talking about? 05:12 Well of course we are going to spend 13 conversations unpacking 05:17 that but on the surface I think we can say that it is in its 05:22 very essence, in its nucleic form, it is the best way, the 05:26 biblical way to relate to God and to understand that this is 05:31 the way God relates to us. 05:33 -- I am glad you used the word relates because righteousness by 05:37 faith really is a term that defines how God relates to us 05:45 and then how in turn how we relate back to Him 05:48 -- that's good 05:49 -- in response 05:51 -- yeah in response. 05:52 And one of the ways that been helpful to me to wrap my mind 05:53 around it is to essentially say that righteousness by faith is a 05:58 concept that teaches that love begets love. 06:02 That love gives birth to love. 06:04 That relationally between us and God and between us as human 06:09 beings one to another that faithful love arouses a 06:14 returning current of faithful love. 06:16 So God in scripture, in the narrative of scripture God is 06:21 portrayed as relating to human being with what we're going to 06:26 call "covenantal faithfulness" as this unfolds. 06:29 And that covenantal faithfulness, that faithful 06:32 love, it arouses, it awakens it generates a response. 06:37 -- Amen. 06:38 -- It generates a response in its image. 06:41 -- I love it. 06:42 -- Literally as you were starting to talk, as you started 06:45 that last little bit there, I was turning to 1 John 06:47 chapter 4 verse 19. 06:49 The idea was already, as was like I hey I know, and then you 06:51 started saying love begets love. 06:54 And John says the same thing. 06:56 1 John chapter 4 verse 19 what an appropriate text to be the 06:59 first text we look up in this series. 07:01 We love Him because He first loved us. There's the idea of 07:08 the original thing, the God thing, and our response to who 07:14 God is and what God does. 07:16 -- We could say it this way. 07:17 That His love is original and unborrowed. 07:22 His love is taking the initiative. 07:26 His love is creative. 07:28 Ours is created. 07:30 --His love is changeless. 07:31 -- His love is changeless. 07:33 And it produces in us a returning love. 07:36 --I love you mentioned the word initiate. 07:38 So if God is the one who initiates and that kind of it's 07:43 interesting cause we have this term that we say I found God. 07:47 I found Jesus. 07:49 -- Did you really? 07:51 --Back in August of 1999 I was 17 years old and I found God. 07:54 But what we're saying here is that that's not really the right 07:59 way to put it right. 08:01 We don't find God right. 08:03 So God is the one initiating right. 08:05 So it's like we slow down and let God catch up type thing. 08:08 So God is the one that finds us. 08:12 --It's like we're running, running and running from God so 08:15 to speak and if we just stop and turn around 08:18 --Boom 08:19 --He's right there. 08:20 --It's the beauty of scripture that it turns everything on its 08:23 head. 08:24 So it's, scripture is not man in search of God but it's God in 08:28 search of man. 08:29 -- There you go. 08:30 -- Which is the title of a great book by Abraham Joshua Heschel, 08:33 which is intentionally turning the whole idea on its head, 08:38 which is, really is right side up but 08:40 [Laughter] 08:43 it's upside down. 08:44 That idea that God is pursuing us. 08:49 That His love is a constant in Himself. 08:53 Right? 08:54 --Let me illustrate...go ahead. 08:55 --Well in that constancy in God that reliable constant unbroken 08:59 changeless love, it's not conditioned by anything external 09:03 to himself. 09:05 So God doesn't love me more when I do good and He doesn't love me 09:08 less when I do bad. 09:09 God's love is an unconditional reality. 09:13 And those who see it and engage with it begin to return, begin 09:17 to be drawn, begin to be attracted. 09:19 --Let me illustrate it this way. 09:20 I love this whole idea because let's just say this is God just 09:23 for illustration sake. This is God. 09:25 And our perspective of God, of what He's like either attracts 09:29 or repels. 09:30 So if we have a God who is a God that is exacting. 09:35 A God that is vengeful. 09:37 A God that is wanting something from us in order to give us His 09:39 favor. 09:40 That God approaches us and as He approaches us 09:44 -- Look at that. 09:47 -- It's repelling. 09:48 --It pushes one person away after another. 09:50 But if we have a God as we've described, I think as the Bible 09:53 describes 09:54 -- There you go. 09:55 --A God who is love, a God who is pursuing us, a God who's love 09:57 toward us doesn't change because of our condition, who we are. 10:00 Then as He approaches us, becomes close to us, He attracts 10:03 us to Him. 10:04 -- Nice, you had that all set up. 10:06 [Laughter] 10:07 Nice. 10:08 [Crosstalk] 10:09 I love it. I love it. 10:10 [Crosstalk] 10:14 I'm so thankful that you just used the phrase that God is love 10:17 because the first text that we went to 1 John chapter 4 10:19 verse 19. We love him because He first loved 10:21 us; you know that that same chapter contains that very 10:25 phrase. 10:27 In fact it's the place in scripture where we get that 10:28 phrase from that God is love. Verse 8 He who does not love 10:33 does not know God for God is love. 10:36 I like to paraphrase that this way; if you're not a loving 10:39 person, if love is not what motivates you and actuates you, 10:43 you couldn't possibly know what God is about. 10:45 Because God is that thing. 10:48 That is the thing that God is. 10:50 God is love. 10:51 So when you talk Ty, about constancy in His person, it's 10:54 not just a constancy and a consistency of action. 10:57 It's a constancy of love that's born out of not just His 11:00 character, the things He does, but His nature, the thing that 11:04 He is. 11:05 --Can I give a Bible verse that I think is really helpful on 11:08 this? 11:09 -- Bring it. 11:10 --And I want to give another one after you're done. 11:11 -- Okay. 11:12 James 1:17 I'm turning there. 11:14 I think I can just quote it if I can't find it fast enough. 11:17 Basically, here's what it says. 11:19 James 1:17 every good gift and every perfect gift comes from 11:26 above and comes down from the Father of lights. 11:29 Now notice this language. 11:31 With whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 11:37 So, so that's the constancy idea 11:39 -- There it is. 11:40 -- That's the reliability idea. 11:42 God is who He is unalterably. 11:44 -- There you go. 11:45 -- There is nothing outside of God that dictates to Him who He 11:48 is. 11:49 --Yeah, I got it I got it. 11:51 --So, He doesn't change. 11:52 He's unaltered toward us. 11:53 And what is that unalterable state? 11:56 Goodness. 11:57 -- Amen 11:58 --He just continually showering goodness. 12:00 And James learned this from Jesus. 12:03 In the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus says that God causes 12:07 the sun to shine on the righteous and the wicked 12:10 and the rain to come on the righteous and the wicked. 12:12 God is constant in His love. 12:15 And that constancy is the only hope of anything good being 12:22 produced enough returning to Him and reaching out to others. 12:25 -- Amen. 12:26 -- Also you have a short one that's in Malachi 3. 12:29 And often this verse seen in a different light. 12:31 It's usually used as a proof text but I love the context of 12:33 it because it gives us 12:35 -- verse 6 12:36 -- yes, that's it. 12:37 I am the Lord I change not. 12:40 God is love. 12:42 So I change not means His love 12:45 -- It's who I am. 12:46 --- It's who I am. 12:47 Therefore 12:49 -- I knew it there you go. 12:50 --You sons of Jacob are not consumed. 12:51 --Praise God. 12:52 --Isn't that something? 12:53 -- Yeah, it's beautiful because the context is talking about His 12:54 character and how that relates to our existence. 12:56 To the existence to the entire world rather that a doctrinal 13:00 application of well I haven't changed...it's more centered on 13:06 the influence that that love has upon us as we see God for who He 13:10 really is. 13:11 -- I was playing with a teenager's mind one time who was 13:13 not being on her best behavior. 13:18 And I said with a very straight face, I said to her I said, 13:22 there's just something you need to know. 13:25 God will not change His mind, His heart, His attitude towards 13:29 you. 13:31 [Laughter] 13:34 And because of her state of mind, because she was feeling 13:37 guilt, that immediately for a split second. 13:40 I didn't leave her there for very long; 13:42 [crosstalk] 13:44 it wasn't good news to her because she was immediately 13:46 thinking that God is standing in an attitude of condemnation 13:50 towards her. 13:52 And then I smiled and I followed through and I showed that verse. 13:55 And basically it pointed out that God won't change His mind 13:58 toward you. 13:59 He's changeless in His love and His pursuit of you. 14:02 It's all going to be okay. 14:03 God loves you. 14:05 God likes you. 14:06 And I still like you too. 14:07 -- Amen. 14:08 -- So we're talking about righteousness by faith and I 14:11 thought would it be helpful to us just at the gate, when we say 14:15 righteousness, cause we're talking about two concepts here. 14:18 Righteousness by faith right? 14:22 What do we mean when we say righteousness? 14:25 Cause there's some. 14:26 --That's a very that's a very churchy sounding term. 14:29 --Yeah very religious 14:31 --Obviously the word right is right at the root of that. 14:33 Righteousness. 14:34 But when we think of righteousness we often think of 14:39 -- Sort of glowing in the dark. 14:40 Piety. 14:41 --Or proper behavior. 14:43 -- Oh there you go. 14:44 --Doing the right, righteousness, the right thing. 14:49 What are we saying when we talk of righteousness? 14:52 --When we say that God is righteous, the Bible is 14:55 essentially painting the picture that God is relationally 14:59 faithful. 15:01 --That's right. 15:02 -- That God has relational integrity. 15:05 You could say it this way. 15:06 To say God is righteous is to say that God loves all others 15:13 above and before Himself or at any cost to Himself. 15:16 So that in God's righteousness the cross of Christ is 15:19 potentiated from the beginning. 15:21 -- There you go. 15:23 There you go. 15:24 --The moment God creates free moral agents he knows that there 15:28 is the possibility in His foreknowledge He know there is 15:31 the absolute possibility, you know, certainty, that humanity 15:34 will fall. 15:35 So that scripture says in Revelation 13 I think its verse 15:39 8, that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the 15:43 world. 15:44 Is it verse 8 I don't know? 15:45 --It is. 15:47 --Verse 8. 15:48 So the idea is that God is relationally faithful. No 15:51 matter what you and I do He will continue to do the right thing, 15:57 there's the word right, 15:59 -- There you go. 16:00 -- For us and to us. 16:01 --That's awesome. 16:02 --When you used the phrase there that the cross was 16:05 potentiated or that the potential for the cross has 16:09 always been in the heart of God, I want to share with 16:11 you something that I find deeply helpful, profoundly helpful. 16:16 It's actually out of Romans chapter 1. 16:19 It's a really great place probably to, at some point in 16:22 our conversation here in our first conversation, we should 16:24 end up here. 16:26 --Maybe this should be our foundational passage for this 16:28 conversation. 16:30 --And maybe for the whole series really when you think 16:31 about it. 16:32 But in Romans 1, and I'll let you guys sort of comment on 16:34 whatever it is you want to comment on, but there's one 16:36 point I want to make here. 16:37 And I'll just read the verse through, 16 and 17. 16:39 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the 16:42 power of God unto salvation, for everyone who believes. 16:44 For the Jew first and also for the Greek. 16:46 And I'm really after verse 17 here. 16:49 For in it, (in the gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed 16:53 from faith to faith as it is written the just shall live by 16:55 faith. 16:56 Now here's the illustration. 16:58 Notice that it says in verse 17 the righteousness of God is 17:01 revealed, that is to say disclosed. 17:04 Okay so I have here my IPad case and I'm just going to hold my 17:06 hand up behind the IPad case. 17:09 Right? 17:11 Now I know that the cameraman behind me can see my hand but 17:12 you guys can't see my hand right now. 17:14 Is that right? 17:15 --That's right. 17:16 -- Okay now watch this. 17:17 You ready? 17:18 -- I'm ready. 17:19 -- I'm on the edge of my seat. 17:21 -- Did you see that? 17:22 [Laughter] 17:23 You want to see it again? 17:24 Here we go are you ready? 17:25 Can you see my hand? Can you see my hand? 17:27 Can you see it? 17:28 -- Nope. 17:30 That's amazing isn't it? 17:31 I am thinking of taking this on the road. 17:32 -- Profound. 17:33 --Now here's the point. 17:34 -- Deep too. 17:35 -- It's very deep. 17:36 Because here's the thing. 17:37 The act of pulling the case away does not create my hand. 17:40 -- It doesn't come into existence. 17:42 -- No that's right. 17:43 It's already there. 17:44 But you don't see it. 17:45 There's something that is blocking you from seeing what is 17:48 already there. 17:50 When God gave freedom, when God created a being and He knew full 17:54 well that in doing that He was creating the potential for 17:58 disobedience for sin for rape for murder for genocide, for all 18:01 of that. 18:02 That is in the potential of creating something that can 18:07 resist. 18:08 That has freewill. 18:09 God knows who and what He is. 18:12 Right? 18:14 But the creative intelligences, those human beings, whether 18:15 angelic or human, they don't know. 18:19 They don't know fully and completely what's in the heart 18:22 of God. 18:23 And so when we talk about God's righteousness we're talking 18:25 about something that has always been there, right? 18:29 From creation, in the beginning God created the heavens and the 18:32 earth. 18:33 But which is now made known to us by virtue of the fact that 18:38 there has been rebellion, there has been sin, there has been a 18:41 misuse of the liberty that God trusted us with. 18:44 And we can say, well what's God going to do? 18:46 What will be God's attitude? 18:48 What will be God's posture toward rebellion, sin, and 18:51 sinners? 18:53 And now we know. 18:54 --And that is what the Bible means when it says speaks 18:55 of the righteousness of God. 18:57 --That's right. 18:58 --It's the divine It's God's response. 19:00 It's the Divine response to us as human beings. 19:03 But it is not an actualization of something about God; it's a 19:08 revelation of something about Him. 19:09 --That's right. 19:10 --It's something that's always been there. 19:11 -- Relational fidelity. 19:12 -- You got it. 19:13 -- Relational fidelity. 19:15 -- There's a couple points I want to make but I know we're 19:16 out of time probably so I'm going to wait. 19:18 But 19:19 -- For the second session. 19:20 --Okay. 19:21 We'll just take a break now then. 19:22 [Music] 19:24 This is the story of Nyema who took a bus to the doctor and 19:30 found a piece of paper with words of hope about Jesus. 19:34 Which was left by a church member who unpacked a box that 19:38 came from a truck which drove in from Durban where a ship was 19:42 docked that sailed from Seattle loaded with containers stacked 19:47 high with millions of tracks trucked in from the Light 19:51 Bearers Publishing House where more than 600 million pieces of 19:55 Gospel literature have been printed in 42 languages and 20:00 here's the amazing thing Light Bearers distributes this 20:04 literature free of charge all over the world. 20:08 And each piece costs only five pennies to print, transport, and 20:12 deliver. 20:15 Everyday millions of people buy a five-dollar cup of 20:17 coffee. Five dollars a cup. 20:21 Five days a week. 20:22 It adds up fast. 20:25 But at just five cents apiece that same twenty five dollars 20:28 can also ship five hundred pieces of literature and give 20:32 hope to people like Nyema who shared that paper with a 20:38 classmate who gave it to her cousin who shared it with his 20:42 boss who passed it to her grandmother who left it on 20:46 another bus where it will be found by someone else. 20:52 And the story continues. 20:55 Five cents doesn't buy a lot these days. 20:58 But in other parts of the world your nickel could change 21:01 someone's life. 21:03 Your gift of twenty-five dollars a month sends out six thousand 21:06 pieces of Gospel literature each year. 21:10 Fifty dollars sends out twelve thousand. 21:13 And one hundred dollars a month sends out twenty four thousand 21:16 messages of hope every year all over the world. 21:22 Empower Light Bearers to continue the story. 21:25 Send your gift through Lightbearers.org. 21:28 Or by calling 877-585-1111. 21:33 Who knew five little pennies could do so much? 21:37 [Music] 21:43 As you guys know I wasn't raised with any Christian 21:47 background, any religious background whatsoever. 21:50 And the same is pretty much true of you guys as well although a 21:53 little bit of formal connection to religion for two of you. 21:57 But here's the thing. 21:59 I had no attraction whatsoever to the concept, to the idea, to 22:05 the notion of God or religion. 22:07 But there was a reason for that. 22:09 Because whatever little I did know about this world that God 22:13 supposedly made, whatever little I did know, the idea, the very 22:18 word God would trigger in me a sense of dominance and control, 22:25 that God to my way of thinking, and it was obviously distorted, 22:31 but God to my way of thinking just equated to some kind of 22:34 head honcho, kind of control freak God in the universe, who's 22:39 got a heavy hand, heavy thumb, issuing commands, 22:43 -- Heavenly dictator. 22:44 -- Yeah. 22:45 Heavenly dictator. 22:46 --How old were you at the time when you were having this idea? 22:47 --This is in my teenage years. 22:49 --Okay got it. 22:50 --This is when, when the idea of God is being spoken of in my 22:54 proximity, by my mom and my girlfriend. 22:57 -- That would have been the natural definition in your mind. 22:59 Okay. 23:00 -- That's how I reacted but here's the thing, we are talking 23:02 about righteousness by faith by the time I am late in my 17th 23:05 year, I am coming to my 18th year of life, I am beginning to 23:10 realize something through a series of encounters that we 23:14 don't have time to get into. 23:15 What I am realizing is that God, as God is defined, revealed in 23:23 Christ, in the narrative of scripture, that fundamental to 23:28 God's nature is love and therefore, fundamental to God's 23:31 relationships is freedom, liberty. 23:35 And the reason I bring this up is because the idea of 23:38 righteousness by faith, while it sounds technical and real 23:41 churchy language, everybody, myself included, we all live in 23:48 a world that has been significantly impacted by, 23:52 shaped by, the notion, the idea of righteousness by faith. 23:56 And what attracted me to God at the beginning was this idea that 24:03 God is love and therefore God is into freedom and he wants 24:07 freedom and liberty to reign. 24:10 So, actually this idea of righteousness by faith was the 24:12 first thing I ever actually wrote, I write just to solidify 24:18 my own thoughts, but at 18 years of age the first thing I ever 24:22 wrote as a new Christian was a paper called "Righteousness by 24:26 Faith". 24:27 I didn't know what it meant in the way that we are going to be 24:30 talking about it. 24:31 But the idea 24:33 --the concept was there 24:34 -- the idea was that, hey, wait a minute. 24:36 God is nothing like I have imagined him to being. 24:40 God is something else than I have concocted in my mind 24:45 through whatever influences and faith is this trust mechanism by 24:49 which I can see God as he really is and then draw close and 24:54 respond to him. 24:56 So that was, and actually, James and I met 24:59 --whatever, I remember that because when I first became, 25:03 like Ty said, I was raised in a religious environment. 25:07 I was raised in a Catholic home and was an altar boy but I knew 25:09 the Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary but I didn't really know 25:11 the Bible or Christ as my personal savior. 25:13 -- I was an altar boy too. 25:14 -- Well, okay. 25:15 There we go. 25:16 But when I became an Adventist and studied with the Adventists 25:19 I heard about this guy named Ty Gibson, he was a young guy like 25:23 I was and my sister who had become an Adventist before me 25:25 was actually hanging out with him and studying with him, I had 25:29 never met him, but I was kind of warned against him like, you 25:32 know, stay away from him, he's kind of on the fringes. 25:34 I didn't know a lot about it but, of course, I just passed 25:37 the warning on to my sister and she told me "Well, wait a 25:39 minute. 25:41 You've never met him. 25:42 You don't know him. 25:43 You need to go at least..." 25:44 -- Give him the benefit of the doubt. 25:45 -- Yeah, give him the benefit of the doubt. 25:46 -- We were just kids. 25:47 I mean how much on the fringe can you be? 25:48 I didn't, whatever... 25:51 [Laughter] 25:53 -- I think you are hurting Ty's feelings. 25:54 -- So, I did, I just found out where he lived. 25:57 I went to his house and knocked on the door. 25:58 No telephone call, nothing that like. 26:01 -- You didn't text him? 26:02 -- There was no texting back then, no emailing. 26:03 [Laughter] 26:04 -- That was back before telephones. 26:05 -- Back in the 1920's you know. 26:06 -- He sent the pony express. 26:08 [Laughter] 26:10 Shame. 26:11 I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 26:12 So basically, I got on my horse and I rode over... 26:15 [Laughter] 26:18 Actually, I think you were driving a '69 Camaro or 26:21 something like that. 26:22 -- It was a '72. 26:23 I knocked on the door. 26:24 -- You are gonna get this story out. 26:25 --Introduced myself. 26:26 "Ty, my name is James. 26:27 I am Shavan's brother. 26:28 I am here because I just wanted to meet you." 26:30 And in my mind I am saying, I just want to meet you and get 26:33 this out of the way because I am going to tell my sister I went 26:36 through the preliminaries. 26:37 I went and did what I was supposed to do and I still 26:40 haven't changed. 26:41 --And I gave you my paper. 26:42 --Righteousness by Faith 26:44 --No way, the very paper? 26:45 --Yeah yeah 26:46 Like your handwritten paper or you photocopied it? 26:49 -- It was typed up. 26:50 -- No photocopies. 26:52 The 1920's. 26:53 --Yeah, bro. 26:54 We have photocopy machines. 26:56 -- Got it. 26:57 Okay. 26:58 -- So he just said like "Here, take this." 27:00 -- He said, hey and we connected. 27:01 Then he gave it to me and I took it home and read it. 27:04 -- Did you think he was kind of a cool guy or kind of fringy, 27:07 weird? 27:08 -- I wasn't' sure and I read the paper and I thought, whatever he 27:10 is, this is great stuff. 27:12 -- Amen! 27:13 -- So I went back. 27:15 -- He's a very gifted writer. 27:16 -- And we talked about it and we just continued to dialog and 27:18 started to study and that was the whole beginning. 27:21 --The rest is history. 27:22 -- Anyways, that was righteousness by faith for me in 27:24 a very embryonic form. 27:26 It needed to, as even now for all of us, it needs to just take 27:31 on greater dimensions and depth in our thinking. 27:34 -- When we broke at the end of the last session, you said you 27:37 had something you wanted to say but you were going to defer to 27:39 this session. 27:40 Was that it? 27:41 -- No, this is something that has just germinated in my mind 27:43 and I am going to share this maybe because other people think 27:48 the way that I used to think. 27:50 And therefore, I think this might be a good point of 27:52 clarification. 27:53 When I think of the phrase "righteousness by faith", I have 27:57 not for many, many years, ever immediately thought of God's 28:01 righteousness toward us. 28:04 Whenever I thought of that phrase I have always thought of 28:07 our experience of righteousness of faith toward God. 28:10 -- So, this is a paradigm shift? 28:12 --It's a whole paradigm shift because what I am realizing as 28:15 we study this is and I think we are going to unlock this so I 28:18 really think this is important is that understanding God's 28:21 righteousness toward us is the key foundation for responding in 28:27 righteousness by faith toward Him. 28:30 It's a two-way relational experience and it does not, it 28:34 is not grounded in the way that we respond, but in the way that 28:39 God responds, I am saying this in the context to the same 28:42 problem. 28:43 Now, what I want, I want to read a couple of verses that have 28:45 kind of cemented this in my mind and they connect with Romans 28:48 chapter 1. 28:49 And these verses are in 2 Timothy 1, and beginning here in 28:54 verse 9, and you will see the connection. 28:56 David, there are tons of connecting points right here 28:58 between these two verses, but it is talking about God and it 29:01 says, "Who...". 29:03 Okay, I am going to start with verse 8. 29:05 "Be not thou therefore ashamed, don't be ashamed of the Gospel, 29:09 don't be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me 29:12 as prisoner, but be a partaker of the afflictions of the Gospel 29:15 according to the power of God." 29:16 So, verse 8 says don't be ashamed of the Gospel. 29:18 Same thing as Romans 1 "Don't be ashamed of the Gospel, the power 29:22 of God who," verse 9, God's talking here, "who have saved us 29:26 and has called us with the holy calling, not according to our 29:29 works, but according to his own purpose and grace which was 29:34 given to us in Christ Jesus, before the world began." 29:38 I am just going to try to summarize the point I am trying 29:40 to make here. 29:41 God has acted in faithfulness and righteousness toward us by 29:47 faith giving his son, giving himself in the person of his son 29:51 to die in our behalf because we were absolutely helpless. 29:55 This is the way I wrote it down, just, just, just to have it 29:57 clear in my mind. 29:59 Righteousness by faith begins with God, not the human and in 30:02 so doing, in beginning with God it impacts and saves the fallen 30:05 human beings and does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. 30:10 -- Amen, there you go 30:11 -- And that illicit a response toward Him 30:12 -- that's the point 30:13 -- that's so clear 30:15 -- can I, when you just said that it illicit a response, I 30:17 went to Rome with my wife, we were just doing some 30:21 sightseeing. 30:22 We went to that chapel where Martin Luther, you know 30:27 -- Pilate's staircase 30:28 -- with the whole staircase - Pilate's staircase 30:30 -- on your knees 30:31 -- supposedly it's Pilate's staircase 30:32 -- yeah, supposedly. 30:33 Going up the stairs and you know, your knees are bleeding 30:35 and of course 30:36 -- did you go up on your knees? 30:37 -- I didn't, however close 30:39 check this out 30:41 -- this is a great series we are doing Jeffrey, I am really glad 30:42 you're here. 30:43 -- it was good for me 30:44 -- we will set you free 30:45 -- I walked, I walked into the chapel, I was going there 30:46 specifically to witness this because I had read it, right, 30:49 he's walking up and then [finger snap] 30:51 boom, the just shall live by faith and that whole paradigm, 30:53 so I go up the stairs and everyone is crawling up, and I 30:57 run up and I have my camera and I, and I, and I begin to take 31:01 video footage and then I am, just in my mind, I am thinking, 31:04 first of all I am shocked 31:06 -- these are people 31:07 -- these are real people 31:08 --dude, I can't believe you are saying this 31:09 -- these are real people and, and 31:11 -- in the 21st century - yeah, today, and this is, this is the 31:14 idea that God really likes this? God wants this? 31:18 And then I thought to myself, I would never... 31:21 -- Oh!! 31:22 -- And then boom, 31:24 and you think how often in just a practical daily 31:30 experience, you know we were saying, you were saying, 31:32 somebody was saying this, that in the same day we can 31:38 transition from new covenant to old covenant 31:40 -- yes- in one conversation 31:41 -- yes 31:42 -- we can be n old covenant in our mind and new covenant, 31:44 and those are concepts that will develop here in the 31:46 future but... 31:47 Immediately I thought man on a daily basis how often do we 31:49 relate to God in a way that's totally foreign to scripture, 31:55 to Paul, to Jesus, to everything. 31:57 That's not, that's not it. 31:59 We don't illicit something from God 32:01 -- I had a similar experience when I was in Portugal at 32:04 Fatima, and just seeing these pilgrims on their knees and you 32:09 know the natural temptation is to look down in a kind of, you 32:13 know 32:14 -- I wouldn't do that 32:16 -- condescension, but then, exactly, it didn't cause me to 32:18 look down, it caused me to look in 32:20 -- yeah, well the fact is while some human beings are climbing 32:26 Pilate's staircase on their knees, I think what you are 32:28 saying is that we climb staircases, so to speak, labor, 32:35 in our minds, in our emotions, in our relationships, in other 32:39 words whenever we are relating to God in the way, in a way that 32:46 intends to get Him to be good toward me by what I do, that's 32:52 the antithesis of righteousness by faith 32:54 -- it is, same thing. 32:55 When you take this idea, this idea that we are describing 32:58 right here and you distill it down, and I don't want to, this 33:01 will be a simplification but I hope it's not an over 33:03 simplification. 33:04 When you take this idea that we are describing here and this 33:07 idea that you have just recently touched on, Ty and Jeffrey, and 33:10 I talked about my experience at Fatima, you can distill all the 33:13 religions of the world down into basically two ideas. 33:18 In other words, there's hundreds and even thousands of religious 33:21 permutations but I would like to suggest, I think this program 33:24 wants to suggest at the outset here, that there's really only 33:28 two manifestations of ways to relate to God. 33:31 The world has really just two religions with lots of different 33:34 sort of variations on a theme 33:36 -- yeah, can I add that 33:38 -- yeah, please 33:39 -- it's based on two different ways of viewing how God relates 33:42 to us 33:43 -- that's right, the question is, in the way that I like to 33:46 say it is, what kind of a god are we dealing with? 33:49 Are we dealing with a god is, the God of scripture, who 33:51 self-initiates, who is constant within his person, who is love, 33:54 what we have been talking about up to that point. 33:56 Or are we dealing with a god that you believed Ty when you 33:58 were in your 16, 17, that period where he has to be appeased. 34:03 There's dominance, there's control, there's manipulation, 34:05 there's you know God has got his thumb on the situation. 34:08 The language that I use for that is what I call the "virgins in 34:12 volcanoes" god. 34:13 Right? 34:15 You know, here we are a primitive people living on this 34:16 island and there's not enough rain, or there's too much rain, 34:19 or whatever it might be. 34:21 Whatever the natural disaster or somebody's sick and god's angry 34:25 clearly and he or they have to be appeased and so we are going 34:31 to find a sacrifice here. 34:33 Something that would be acceptable to a god and we are 34:36 going to bring that sacrifice up to the volcano and we are going 34:39 to throw her in or the sheep in or whatever the thing is, throw 34:42 the virgin into the volcano and god says "Okay, now I am happy." 34:45 Now you have at least temporarily satiated my wrath 34:48 and here's some rain or some sun or whatever it might be. 34:51 That's an oversimplification but there are lots of people and 34:57 lots of Christians that relate to God on the basis of "I'm 35:00 going to do something, say something, be something, buy 35:03 something that will cause God to do something." 35:07 -- And we do it, I mean we do it in all kinds of different ways. 35:12 Have you ever, for example, I'll just use myself in my 35:16 own experience. 35:17 I remember very clearly feeling the guilt and the sting of a 35:24 conscience that has violated and then feeling like man, I really 35:29 need to go to church this week [laughter] 35:32 [crosstalk] 35:33 I need to make up for, I need to purchase favor with God. 35:38 In this view it's the "virgins in the volcano" idea. 35:41 It's the idea that God is a vending machine. 35:44 That he requires coin, he requires 35:47 -- some kind of currency 35:48 -- something in order to give us the favor that our hearts and 35:54 minds crave, but, but yeah. 35:58 So we are basically saying that there are only two religions in 36:01 the world by which we don't mean by the way...we don't mean, 36:06 "ours is the right religion and all the others are wrong". 36:09 What we do mean, and I like the fact that you used the word 36:13 "idea". 36:14 There are two different ideas 36:15 -- ideologies 36:16 -- ideologies, two different theological constructs, if you 36:20 will, of God that leads to two different diametrically opposed 36:24 experiences as a human being in relation to God 36:27 -- and those two ways of thinking break through all the 36:30 barriers of religious denominations - there you go 36:33 -- they even break the barriers that are among us and they 36:36 permeate into the very heart and the very mind of the way each of 36:40 us, individually 36:41 -- there you go 36:42 -- and the whole of the world humanity collectively think. 36:45 -- Guys, how many people have given up on God and the whole 36:49 "Jesus" thing because they have been burnt out? 36:54 And it's not because there is anything wrong with God, it's 36:57 because the way they have been relating to God? 36:59 --There you go 37:00 -- Isn't it exhausting to think of God... 37:02 I love the whole vending machine thing. 37:05 He requires coin. 37:06 To think of God as someone who needs to be appeased on a 37:10 regular basis. 37:13 That's exhausting emotionally, psychologically 37:14 -- well the thing is, you will never pull it off, 37:16 --you'll never, you will always be in a constant 37:19 state of anxiety 37:21 -- I just wrote the word insecurity down on my piece of 37:23 paper 37:25 -- and people, people will give up on God because of that just 37:27 -- can I say something that might help you and it certainly 37:31 has helped me in that language? 37:32 I find this extremely liberating. 37:35 Those people are not giving up on the God of scripture 37:38 -- yes, say it please 37:40 -- Amen 37:41 -- they are giving up on a god who doesn't exist 37:42 -- and in a way praise God that they are giving up on that "god" 37:47 -- And that's why God reads the heart and knows where they are 37:49 -- that's right 37:50 -- and that's why this is such good news 37:52 -- absolutely, because when they are introduced to, just like Ty, 37:54 your experience and your experience when you met Ty. 37:56 When you are introduced to not just a better picture of God, 38:01 like "nanny, nanny, boo, boo, my god is better than your god" but 38:03 the Biblical picture of God, it's not a vending machine, it's 38:07 not virgins in volcanoes, it's not us initiating and appeasing 38:11 God or in some sense creating within Him what wasn't already 38:14 there, it's this picture 38:16 --revealing 38:17 -- look at how awesome He is and was. 38:18 So, when I hear that people give up on those views of God in a 38:21 small way, in my heart 38:23 -- Hallelujah 38:24 -- I rejoice. 38:25 -- Hallelujah 38:26 -- And what about historically? 38:27 We are talking about how this has revolutionary effects on 38:30 somebody, Luther, we mentioned briefly here, I mean just look 38:35 at historically speaking 38:37 --there you go, --yeah 38:38 -- when you can pinpoint when this concept or these concepts 38:42 poke their heads up throughout history, one of these mileposts 38:47 would have been during the Martin Luther time of the 38:50 Prodestant Reformation and the massive ripple effects, that 38:55 idea, just one man standing up and saying "Wait a second". 38:58 I think we've got it wrong 39:00 -- yeah, things are upside down there 39:02 -- It's upside down and then what happens effects on the 39:06 political level, on the social level and now we're living in a 39:10 world that has benefitted from the notions of liberty and 39:15 freedom that could be traced to this revolutionary idea 39:18 -- Actually, I started to talk about that and then we kind 39:20 of forgot about it. 39:22 You remember we said that we live in a world right now that 39:26 has been dramatically impacted and shaped by the idea of 39:29 righteousness by faith and what I meant when I said two specific 39:33 times in history, not that there aren't more, was in the writing 39:36 and preaching of Paul, the first, basically the first 39:40 Christian missionary of the world 39:41 -- the greatest exponent, got it -- and his point was, his 39:43 teaching was righteousness by faith and the world was turned 39:46 upside down, by which we actually mean right side up. 39:49 -- There you go, come on 39:50 -- and then darkness sets in on the world after the revolution 39:55 of the New Testament church and then here comes Luther and 39:59 Martin Luther, as you are saying Jeffrey. 40:01 Martin Luther initiates, with the concept of righteousness by 40:05 faith, a series of thoughts that connect together that ultimately 40:11 produce some of the things that we experience on a daily basis 40:15 and take for granted 40:16 -- We are living in the wake of Martin Luther's thinking and 40:20 ultimately of Paul's thinking and ultimately of Jesus' 40:23 thinking 40:24 We are living... 40:25 TWe are.. They sneezed and we got a cold. 40:28 -- We got well 40:29 [laughter] 40:31 -- That's another way to say it. 40:32 One thing I love, Jeffrey, that was extremely historically 40:34 accurate when you said that Martin Luther said, "Hey, wait a 40:38 minute." 40:39 Maybe we don't have this right because Luther was, himself, a 40:43 member of the system that was perpetuating. 40:46 He said, "Hey, we, me.." 40:48 and we need to take that same humility, ourselves, and it 40:51 can't just be looking, okay and look at this and look at this 40:53 -- wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, we got it right 40:55 -- it needs to be "hey, do I have it right"? 40:56 -- Think about this though, you initiated this idea of freedom 41:01 in liberty but think about this. 41:03 Martin Luther realizes the truth of justification by faith, 41:07 righteousness by faith. 41:09 That casts a vision in a context because his context is a world 41:15 in which the dignity and freedom of conscience for the individual 41:19 is pretty much non-existent. 41:21 You don't think for yourself, you don't relate directly to God 41:25 --that's right 41:26 -- there's this entire colossal, mammoth system that is dictating 41:30 how you are to think and feel about God and relate to God. 41:34 Well, Luther, I mean, think about this, He gets the idea of 41:38 justification by faith in his mind and he, picture it, he's 41:41 standing, a single solitary individual on the premise of the 41:46 liberty that he has in Christ. 41:47 He is standing before this monolithic system of religion 41:52 and politics and he essentially says, "From now on I am thinking 41:57 for myself and what God has revealed to me in His Word is 42:02 that He is beautiful in the extreme..." 42:05 -- the just shall live by faith --" the just shall live by faith 42:07 and I'm not going to be groveling anymore to gain His 42:10 favor because I already have it." 42:12 -- The Gospel empowered the individual, it empowered the 42:16 now an individualist standing, in confidence and in boldness 42:21 before the greatest powers of the time and the day, because 42:25 the Gospel brings liberation, freedom and empowerment. 42:28 -- I have a secular documentary, it's a PBS documentary on, or it 42:33 might be BBC, documentary on Martin Luther and they have a 42:36 number of 42:37 --PBS, I love that one 42:39 -- theologians 42:40 -- yeah, you know the one I am talking about 42:41 -- absolutely 42:42 -- They have a number of theologians on there as well but 42:43 they have a number of just historians, secular university 42:44 historians, and to a person, they say that what Luther did 42:49 was not just Ecclesiastically significant, that is to say, 42:51 within the church, he literally, he was the fulcrum upon which 42:56 the entire sway of Western Civilization tipped. 43:00 That when this idea... 43:01 --we should include the others as well 43:03 -- Of course. 43:04 Luther is the archetype but the idea that one person is going to 43:09 say, "I will be true to God and I will be true to myself and I 43:14 am going to buck the system. 43:15 I don't think I need the priest. 43:17 I don't think I need the church. 43:18 I don't think I need the Eucharist. 43:20 I don't think I need the saints. 43:22 I don't think I need Mary. 43:23 I am just gonna sort of circumvent all of that. 43:25 I am going straight to God. 43:27 -- And the truth shall set you free 43:28 -- Guys, the American experiment that the very world in which we 43:34 live in which also has impacted the whole world. 43:38 This is basically the idea that righteousness by faith, even 43:45 though we don't think of this directly, there's a direct 43:46 linkage or connection between those ideas and the formation of 43:51 a nation on the premise of the liberty of the individual. 43:56 -- Inalienable rights 43:57 -- Yeah, I would go so far as to say, even though we would have 44:00 to flesh it out more and we won't have the time, that is 44:03 that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has impacted, as you were saying 44:09 not only religion but politics to the degree that the 44:12 Constitution of the United States of America is the Gospel 44:16 formulated into a governing document. 44:20 In the principle, the foundational principle that all 44:24 men are created equal. 44:27 I mean, it's there... 44:29 -- Amen, whether the nation stays consistent with it or not, 44:31 that's irrelevant 44:33 -- [crosstalk] 44:35 -- We have a lot of viewers who are not from the United States 44:38 of America. 44:39 We get that. 44:40 What we are saying is that the idea of liberty, the idea of 44:41 freedom, the idea of a creator making everyone equal and that 44:45 you worship God according to the dictates of your own conviction 44:48 and conscience, that's, those are Christian principles. 44:52 Those are Biblical principles; those are "righteousness by 44:54 faith" principles. 44:55 -- And we are modeling it by sitting around a table 44:58 -- Amen 45:00 -- Having an open conversation about these kinds of things, we 45:03 are literally engaged in a priesthood of all believers and 45:07 individual freedom that brings people together to think for 45:13 themselves and to live before God as he really is, a God who 45:17 believe in liberty 45:19 -- As they were created to live -- Amen 45:21 -- We have to take a break again, and then we will come 45:23 back and continue our discussion. 45:25 -- Amen 45:26 [Music] 45:32 The Light Bearers Story is a short, award winning video that 45:35 gives an inside look at one of the boldest and most effective 45:38 missionary ventures of our time. 45:40 You will see how multiple millions of Gospel publications 45:43 are flooding the nations free of charge by surprisingly simple 45:47 means. 45:48 For your free copy of The Light Bearers Story, call 877-585-1111 45:54 or write to Light Bearers 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 46:00 97438. 46:02 Once again, for your free copy of The Light Bearers story, call 46:06 877-585-1111 or write to Light Bearers 37457 Jasper Lowell 46:14 Road, Jasper, OR 97438. 46:18 Simple ask for The Light Bearers Story. 46:23 [Music] 46:26 All of this conversation about liberty is really prompting my 46:31 mind, and I think yours too, to a text we all love, Galatians 5. 46:36 I will say, as we are all going there, this verse has been 46:39 foremost in my mind for years and years because this happens 46:42 to be my wife's favorite Bible verse 46:44 -- oh, really? 46:45 Wow! 46:46 Number one? 46:47 Numero uno? 46:48 -- Galatians 5 verse 1. 46:49 So, Galatians 5:1, this is powerful isn't it? 46:54 -- Beautiful 46:55 -- I mean, this verse encapsulates the idea that we 46:58 have been trying to get at in the conversation so far. 47:03 "Stand fast therefore, in the liberty by which Christ has made 47:07 us free and do not be entangled again with the yoke of bondage." 47:12 There's a lot there. 47:13 There's a lot to unpack there but my initial idea regarding 47:19 this verse was just the idea of liberty and when I first read it 47:22 years and years ago I thought "okay, stop sinning" 47:26 [chuckling] 47:27 What this is saying, really is, that there is a foundational, 47:31 --something more powerful 47:32 -- objective freedom that Jesus historically has achieved on our 47:37 behalf and that that liberty that he has achieved as our 47:41 representative had, we will get into that kind of language later 47:44 on in our discussion, but what Jesus has achieved, that liberty 47:47 He has achieved, is the liberty that we are now invited now to 47:51 stand in. 47:52 We are invited to participate in --claim it, claim it 47:55 -- experience the thing that He's done 47:58 -- Amen, I love this because it connects liberty with Christ and 48:01 I know when I first came to Christ, that's what I needed. 48:05 I needed liberty, I needed freedom, I needed to be able to 48:08 live the life that God wanted me to live and not be continually 48:11 brought into bondage and do the things that in my conscience, 48:15 even though I wasn't a practicing Christian or a 48:17 practicing Bible-believer, per se, in my conscience I felt like 48:23 they were wrong and I didn't want to do those things. 48:24 I felt bad about them, but I felt like there was no power and 48:27 no strength. 48:28 It wasn't until I was introduced to Jesus that I found liberty. 48:31 So, I love the way this verse connects Christ with liberty 48:35 because sometimes people think of Christ or Christians or 48:38 religion and they connect it with bondage. 48:40 They connect... 48:41 --restrictions and rules 48:42 -- but when we see this in the context of the real experience, 48:48 the joy, the peace that God wants for us, it's actually an 48:51 experience; Christianity is an experience of liberty. 48:54 --Yeah, yeah, it really is. 48:55 --Most modern translations render this, in fact my own 48:59 margin of reference here in the New King James version renders 49:01 this verse as "For freedom Christ has made us free, stand 49:06 fast therefore..." 49:07 Etc, etc, etc. and I love that language. 49:08 For freedom Christ has set us free. 49:12 We often think about freedom in the context of being a means to 49:17 an end. 49:18 You are free to "fill in the blank", whatever. 49:20 To do this, to do this, to do this, to do this... 49:22 But freedom is not only a means to an end it's an end in itself. 49:26 The idea of freedom is a virtue. 49:30 It is a value. 49:31 -- It's innate to the character of God. 49:33 -- I am so glad you said that because earlier the very first 49:35 verse we looked at was 1 John chapter 4 verse 19. 49:38 We love him because he first loved us. 49:40 Now here's the interesting thing, implicit in the verse is 49:43 the idea of freedom. 49:44 We choose to love him because he first loved us. 49:49 Implicit in that is you don't have to. 49:51 --Right 49:52 -- If there was no freedom it would say "We love him" well you 49:53 can't actually say that because love requires freedom. 49:56 The whole idea that we return, that we reciprocate love to God 50:00 without the idea of freedom, without, not just the idea of 50:04 it, but the reality of freedom. 50:06 This doesn't happen. 50:07 And so I just like the idea that we are called to be free for 50:13 freedom's sake. 50:14 That is a value and a virtue in and of itself. 50:16 And here's an interesting thing, it's intuitive. 50:19 This idea of freedom is intuitive and the illustration 50:23 that I use is this one, tell me what you think of it. 50:25 If you are just walking down the street, somewhere, in the mall, 50:29 where ever it doesn't matter where, and someone 50:31 comes up to you and grabs you by the arm, right if they 50:34 just come up and grab you by the arm and start just pulling 50:37 you, will you go with them? 50:40 --No 50:41 -- No you're 50:42 [crosstalk] 50:44 -- you instantly, instinctively you resist. 50:48 Why? 50:50 Because you sense even autonomically there is something 50:54 wrong with coercion. 50:55 There is something wrong with being forced, with being pulled. 50:58 Which is why we can say without any, even if we didn't have the 51:01 text of scripture, we would know intuitively slavery is wrong, 51:04 coercion is wrong, manipulation is wrong. 51:06 -- And anybody who's been married, and all of us are 51:09 married, knows that 51:12 --Jeffrey's married? 51:13 -- Yes, he is. 51:14 --He's the least married. 51:15 --5 plus years, veteran 51:16 [Laughter] 51:19 and from what I have observed, you are good at it, good at 51:22 being married. 51:23 -- But anybody who's been married knows that coercion, and 51:27 love can't occupy the same psychological space. 51:30 You know what I am saying? 51:32 The moment you start turning in the screws, the moment you start 51:36 putting on the heavy hand 51:37 -- people emotionally shut down -- the moment you start 51:39 manipulating, controlling, dictating, on an emotional level 51:43 or on a physical level, the natural impulses, you are saying 51:47 David, is to back up and to be free. 51:50 -- Yes. 51:51 To shut down. 51:52 Look at this here where is says to stand fast therefore, or for 51:56 freedom Christ has made us free. 51:58 He says, "Stand fast therefore, and do not be entangled again 52:01 with the yoke of bondage." 52:02 Earlier in the conversation we talked about the idea that if 52:06 God is the kind of god, the virgins in volcanoes god, the 52:09 appeasement god, the god that "I'm gonna walk up the stairs", 52:12 you'll always wonder, "Have I walked up enough stairs? 52:15 Have we thrown enough virgins into the volcano? 52:18 Have I...?" 52:19 It creates a low-grade insecurity that produces an 52:23 ongoing state of bondage. 52:26 Have I done enough? 52:27 Have I paid enough? 52:28 Have I said enough? 52:29 Just to go back to the Fatima experience that I had when I was 52:31 in Portugal. 52:32 This was a deeply troubling and impacting experience for me 52:35 because, there, not only did you have the Shrine of Fatima, but 52:39 outside there were vendors and not one or two, dozens and 52:43 dozens and dozens of vendors and what they were selling, I 52:46 couldn't believe my eyes. 52:47 They were selling wax, either candles or a wax figurine of a 52:54 child, a wax figurine of a hand, a wax figurine of a leg, of a 52:59 breast, a wax figurine of a nose. 53:02 -- What? 53:03 -- Of a car... 53:04 -- Wherever the problem is. 53:05 -- Exactly, and what you would do, what pilgrims would do is 53:07 they'll go buy the wax figurine of the female breast because 53:10 somebody has breast cancer. 53:11 And they bring this and they offer this as a sort of 53:15 offering, as a child or whatever and you just wondered.and there 53:21 were different sizes. 53:22 There was this candle, and this candle, and this... 53:24 And the hand that's this small, and ... 53:26 they all cost more. 53:28 So the question is "How can I get God to do this thing that I 53:34 need him to do? 53:35 Does he need the small hand, the medium hand or the large hand?" 53:38 -- Wow 53:39 -- That's bondage. 53:40 -- Yeah, how big is the problem -- We were not created for 53:42 bondage, we were created for freedom. 53:44 -- But yet we are prone, we seem to be prone to revert to that, 53:47 because we talked about the historical continuum, we talked 53:50 about Jesus and Paul introduces this idea of revolutionary. 53:53 And then the next name that comes up is Luther. 53:56 -- That's a whole lot of history. 53:57 -- There's a whole lot of years between us. 53:59 The question is up to this revolutionary thing gets 54:01 introduced to the world, why all these centuries in what we call 54:05 the dark ages? 54:07 We seem to be prone to be, because we are projecting 54:09 ourselves, who we are, to God. 54:13 -- Jeffrey, it's because it's embedded in our psyche, there's 54:18 a primal lie that we have received as a legacy from the 54:21 fall. 54:23 We are all infected with it. 54:24 Our natural inclination, like the law of gravity, is to 54:29 gravitate toward an appeasement picture of God because we are 54:34 trying to deal with our guilt and our shame, but we are 54:39 dealing with our guilt and our shame in the context of a lie. 54:42 So because you are in the context of this lie you don't 54:46 see God as God is, you begin with a position of disfavor in 54:51 His attitude toward you. 54:52 The only option, and this is the Gospel is you can begin with a 54:57 premise of favor. 54:58 I don't condemn you, who told you you were naked? 55:03 Genesis chapter 3. 55:04 Why are you experiencing this strong repelling feeling toward 55:12 me? 55:13 I am not repelling you, I am not condemning you. 55:16 -- I love you with an everlasting love. 55:17 I am the Lord I change not. 55:19 I never change towards you. 55:20 -- The text I just really want to bring out, we don't have to 55:23 turn there, but I will just tell you the story. 55:25 John chapter 8 is one of the most intense conversations that 55:28 Jesus had with the religious leaders of his day and in this 55:31 particular conversation they are talking about a great many 55:33 things, but one of the things is who's your father? 55:36 And they have the audacity to say, in John 8:33, they are 55:41 saying to Jesus, the religious leaders, "We are Abraham's 55:43 descendants and we have never been in bondage to anyone." 55:47 So here is this idea of bondage. 55:48 We are not in bondage. 55:49 Now they are speaking, of course, about a political, 55:52 national you know, bondage. 55:55 A military sort of bondage. 55:56 No no no now by the way, that's a very selective memory because 55:59 quite the opposite... 56:01 [Crosstalk] 56:03 -- But it is so interesting what Jesus says, Jesus says, okay you 56:05 want to talk about bondage. 56:07 I am not going to talk about the borders of your nation; I am not 56:09 going to talk about that at all. 56:10 I am not going to talk about Rome, I am not gonna talk about 56:12 Greece, I am not gonna talk about Egypt, we won't have that 56:14 conversation. 56:16 Jesus says, "Most assuredly I say to you, whoever commits sin 56:20 is the slave of sin and the slave does not abide in the 56:24 house forever but the son abides forever." 56:26 Verse 36, one of the most famous verses in all of scripture, 56:28 "Therefore, if the son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." 56:33 And you have heard it said before and I want to say it 56:36 here, you can be free and be enslaved to a wrong picture of 56:40 God and a wrong picture of reality and you can be in a 56:44 prison cell and be free because you understand what the universe 56:49 is really all about and who God is. 56:51 -- It's as if we as human beings are pacing the open cage. 56:57 What I mean by that 56:58 -- pacing? 56:59 --Pacing, pacing. 57:00 Walking back and forth? 57:02 -- When I say we are pacing the open cage I mean the door is 57:06 open, the prison door is open. 57:08 There is a sense that Jesus Christ has already liberated us 57:13 in his achievements. 57:15 God is already in a position of everlasting love toward us. 57:18 The cage is open but we like our bondage because it feels safe it 57:24 maintains our self. 57:25 We are pacing the open cage, so to speak, when Jesus is 57:29 basically saying, "I have already opened the door to you." 57:32 It's kind of like the Emancipation Proclamation". 57:35 When Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, 57:40 Right? 57:41 --revolutionary 57:42 -- all the slaves were free, the question was, were they going to 57:46 stand fast in, were they going to walk in the liberty they had 57:49 been given? 57:50 Some of them did and some of them didn't. 57:53 -- The act had been done. 57:54 It had been accomplished, but... 57:55 -- It reminds me of a saying, that language "pacing the open 57:58 cage", reminds me of a statement made by a well-known German 58:03 theologian who died in the Second World War, Dietrich 58:07 Bonhoeffer. 58:08 He speaks in one of his poems called "Who Am I" about fleeing 58:12 from a victory already won. 58:14 --Isn't that something? 58:15 --Running away from the battlefield but the victory, you 58:18 won the victory. 58:19 Not you, but it has been won on your behalf and you are racing 58:22 as fast as you can. 58:23 -- The open cage. 58:24 Afraid of freedom. 58:25 We are afraid of freedom. 58:27 Which is bizarre. 58:29 -- It might feel a little corny but I loved James' opening 58:32 illustration with the magnets, the pushing because the virgins 58:36 in volcanoes view of God creates insecurity, bondage and it 58:39 ultimately repels us emotionally, psychologically 58:42 from God. 58:43 But if God is like Jesus said and showed, what did he say? 58:49 "When I am lifted up. 58:50 When you see what God is like, you will be magnetically drawn 58:54 to that." 58:55 Because it resonates with us. 58:56 -- What we are basically saying is that there are really only 59:00 two religions or ideologies in the world. 59:04 -- Ways of relating to God. 59:05 -- Either we relate to God on the premise of His goodness 59:09 toward us and respond to that goodness or we 59:13 relate to God on the premise of our own goodness in trying to 59:17 purchase His favor. 59:18 That's the bottom line. 59:19 -- There's two religions. 59:20 --Yeah 59:21 [Music] |
Revised 2014-12-17