[Music]
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[Music]
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I guess we can say is that
this is table talk season 2.
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--Season 2
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-- We can say
that because it's true.
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-- It's true.
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[Laughter]
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First season, 13-part series
we had titled The Big Picture
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Series.
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-- I remember it well.
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--And now we have made a pretty
deliberate choice that now we
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want to do something we're
calling the Righteousness By
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Faith Series.
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But before we get right into
it, it's good to see you guys.
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--Yeah it's good to be here.
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-- And you know I was just
thinking when you said that
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because probably people that
watch the program and think, oh
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they spend a lot
of time together.
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-- They probably room together.
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[Laughter]
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But the truth is that you've
been traveling, you've been
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traveling, we've all
been traveling, you've been
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traveling, I've just got back.
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And, it's true; it's good to
be at the table with my boys.
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--Yeah, yeah.
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James is actually temporarily
living in California.
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--That's why he looks so...
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-- Southern California.
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-- Tan.
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-- Loving the weather.
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--Not so tall plenty
dark and plenty handsome.
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Jeffery, you're just getting
back from Orlando and David was
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also in Orlando.
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-- I was there.
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-- Yeah, we
were at a conference.
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-- We did the GYC thing.
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--How did that go?
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-- It was awesome.
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Jeffery preached
the evening meetings.
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I did a seminar.
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-- How was your preaching
on a scale from 1-10 Jeffery?
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-- He can't answer;
let me answer it for him
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[crosstalk]
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--That's a trap.
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You are trying to incure the
curse of the Lord upon me and
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I'm not going to bite.
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-- Okay.
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-- His sermons were
excellent I was there.
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Content was fantastic.
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It's not easy to preach in
that venue because there's just
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thousands of people there.
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And there's lights,
camera, action kind of a thing.
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It's the opposite of
this situation right here.
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You can actually see people.
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It's intimate it's close.
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And he did a fantastic job.
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And the Lord blessed
that's the most important thing.
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-- And you did a seminar.
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--I did the seminar
yeah it was awesome.
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It was on it was
called God at war creation
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--Do you remember?
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It was on
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--No no no Creation conflict
and covenant and it was awesome.
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Actually one of the highlights
for me honestly was not just the
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seminar content but I had a
number of musicians that came in
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and sang songs at the beginning.
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-- Who?
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-- Friends,
just friends of mine.
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Billie Otto, and
John Malay would come in
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-- Shout out to our boys.
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--Yeah shout out to our boys.
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And man they sang
some beautiful songs.
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Both as opening
songs and his introduction.
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Just the fellowship.
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-- Just to be with
your people, it was great.
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-- Excellent.
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I'm just getting
back from Czech Republic.
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And Poland, actually it was two
trips, went over came back, went
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over again and came back.
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-- It was not warm.
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-- It was very cold
Jeffery, very cold there.
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In fact in Poland and I don't
say this as a criticism at all
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it was fun they drop me off at
the hotel as I was picked up at
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the airport and then they handed
me a map and said the place
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where your speaking each
day twice a day you need to make
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this journey.
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It's over there here's the map.
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It's a twenty-minute walk and
it was blizzard weather there.
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--Oh mercy.
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-- And I didn't even think to
bring a jacket for some reason
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so it's just me my suit and
tie and leather bottom shoes.
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--You always have
your tie with you.
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--Skating on the ice.
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--So your preaching was raw.
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Your preaching
was raw because you
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--That's right.
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--I was I was.
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--Did you get sick?
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-- No I didn't.
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-- Oh, great.
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-- Actually I love feeling
the wild elements of nature.
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-- Yeah I'm the same way.
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-- You hear that
Jeffery, I'm the same way.
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-- Jeffery likes
to stay in the house.
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-- I'm the same way.
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I love the outdoors.
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--He's passionate
about the outdoors.
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-- Passionate.
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-- You like the
window down, you mean.
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-- So we're back in season 2.
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We are at the table.
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And we want to invite all of
those who are listening in to
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this conversation to...by the
way we've got a lot of positive
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feedback from this series.
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--Amen.
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--When we first sort of visioned
it and talked about it it was
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like would anybody listen to
four guys talking about Jesus?
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And apparently it's awesome.
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I mean people are
really enjoying it.
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I just got a tweet
from Kimberly in Kentucky.
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I mean just now as
we're doing this program.
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And she says that she loves the
series because it's relaxing and
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its different
perspectives on the Word.
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But Jesus is the center.
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-- I love the relaxing part.
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[Crosstalk]
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-- Did she say it's
relaxing or it's relaxed?
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-- She said it's relaxed.
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-- Yeah.
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--Yeah, in other words
it doesn't put her to sleep.
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--We're actually trying to
encourage people in doing this
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to sit around the table,
sit around in houses and cafe's
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anywhere and just fellowship
around the Word of God.
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--Amen.
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--Just having conversations
so that's the goal.
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-- In other words
anyone can do what we're doing.
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-- Yeah.
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-- And we encourage it.
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-- This series we're calling
The Righteousness By Faith
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Series,and just at the outset
I have to say it's not the most
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fabulous title for
some ears probably...
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-- But it's the
most fabulous idea.
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-- It's the most fabulous idea
ever ever launched in the world.
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It's incredible actually.
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But it sounds kind of technical
kind of in house kind of churchy
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for those who may not be
familiar with the language.
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So maybe we should begin the
discussion on righteousness by
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faith by just breaking down
what that terminology means.
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When we say righteousness
by faith what do we mean?
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-- What are we talking about?
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Well of course we are going to
spend 13 conversations unpacking
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that but on the surface I think
we can say that it is in its
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very essence, in its nucleic
form, it is the best way, the
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biblical way to relate to God
and to understand that this is
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the way God relates to us.
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-- I am glad you used the word
relates because righteousness by
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faith really is a term that
defines how God relates to us
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and then how in turn
how we relate back to Him
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-- that's good
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-- in response
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-- yeah in response.
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And one of the ways that been
helpful to me to wrap my mind
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around it is to essentially say
that righteousness by faith is a
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concept that teaches
that love begets love.
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That love gives birth to love.
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That relationally between us
and God and between us as human
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beings one to another
that faithful love arouses a
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returning
current of faithful love.
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So God in scripture, in the
narrative of scripture God is
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portrayed as relating to human
being with what we're going to
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call "covenantal
faithfulness" as this unfolds.
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And that covenantal
faithfulness, that faithful
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love, it arouses, it
awakens it generates a response.
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-- Amen.
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-- It generates a
response in its image.
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-- I love it.
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-- Literally as you were
starting to talk, as you started
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that last little bit
there, I was turning to 1 John
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chapter 4 verse 19.
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The idea was already, as was
like I hey I know, and then you
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started saying love begets love.
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And John says the same thing.
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1 John chapter 4 verse 19 what
an appropriate text to be the
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first text we
look up in this series.
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We love Him because He first
loved us. There's the idea of
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the original thing, the God
thing, and our response to who
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God is and what God does.
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-- We could say it this way.
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That His love is
original and unborrowed.
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His love is
taking the initiative.
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His love is creative.
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Ours is created.
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--His love is changeless.
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-- His love is changeless.
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And it produces in
us a returning love.
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--I love you
mentioned the word initiate.
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So if God is the one who
initiates and that kind of it's
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interesting cause we have this
term that we say I found God.
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I found Jesus.
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-- Did you really?
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--Back in August of 1999 I was
17 years old and I found God.
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But what we're saying here is
that that's not really the right
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way to put it right.
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We don't find God right.
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So God is the
one initiating right.
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So it's like we slow down
and let God catch up type thing.
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So God is the one that finds us.
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--It's like we're running,
running and running from God so
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to speak and if we
just stop and turn around
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--Boom
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--He's right there.
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--It's the beauty of scripture
that it turns everything on its
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head.
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So it's, scripture is not man
in search of God but it's God in
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search of man.
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-- There you go.
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-- Which is the title of a great
book by Abraham Joshua Heschel,
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which is intentionally turning
the whole idea on its head,
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which is, really
is right side up but
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[Laughter]
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it's upside down.
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That idea that
God is pursuing us.
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That His love is a
constant in Himself.
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Right?
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--Let me illustrate...go ahead.
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--Well in that constancy in God
that reliable constant unbroken
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changeless love, it's not
conditioned by anything external
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to himself.
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So God doesn't love me more when
I do good and He doesn't love me
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less when I do bad.
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God's love is an
unconditional reality.
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And those who see it and engage
with it begin to return, begin
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to be drawn,
begin to be attracted.
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--Let me illustrate it this way.
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I love this whole idea because
let's just say this is God just
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for illustration
sake. This is God.
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And our perspective of God, of
what He's like either attracts
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or repels.
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So if we have a God who
is a God that is exacting.
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A God that is vengeful.
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A God that is wanting something
from us in order to give us His
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favor.
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That God approaches us
and as He approaches us
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-- Look at that.
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-- It's repelling.
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--It pushes one
person away after another.
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But if we have a God as we've
described, I think as the Bible
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describes
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-- There you go.
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--A God who is love, a God who
is pursuing us, a God who's love
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toward us doesn't change because
of our condition, who we are.
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Then as He approaches us,
becomes close to us, He attracts
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us to Him.
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-- Nice, you
had that all set up.
00:10:04.50\00:10:06.00
[Laughter]
00:10:06.00\00:10:07.13
Nice.
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[Crosstalk]
00:10:07.70\00:10:09.63
I love it. I love it.
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[Crosstalk]
00:10:10.46\00:10:14.73
I'm so thankful that you just
used the phrase that God is love
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because the first text
that we went to 1 John chapter 4
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verse 19. We love him
because He first loved
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us; you know that that
same chapter contains that very
00:10:21.60\00:10:25.83
phrase.
00:10:25.83\00:10:27.00
In fact it's the place in
scripture where we get that
00:10:27.00\00:10:28.23
phrase from that God is love.
Verse 8 He who does not love
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does not know
God for God is love.
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I like to paraphrase that
this way; if you're not a loving
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person, if love is not what
motivates you and actuates you,
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you couldn't possibly
know what God is about.
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Because God is that thing.
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That is the thing that God is.
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God is love.
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So when you talk Ty, about
constancy in His person, it's
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not just a constancy
and a consistency of action.
00:10:54.76\00:10:57.83
It's a constancy of love
that's born out of not just His
00:10:57.83\00:11:00.90
character, the things He does,
but His nature, the thing that
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He is.
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--Can I give a Bible verse that
I think is really helpful on
00:11:05.86\00:11:08.63
this?
00:11:08.63\00:11:09.03
-- Bring it.
00:11:09.03\00:11:10.13
--And I want to give
another one after you're done.
00:11:10.13\00:11:10.86
-- Okay.
00:11:10.86\00:11:11.60
James 1:17 I'm turning there.
00:11:11.60\00:11:14.20
I think I can just quote it
if I can't find it fast enough.
00:11:14.20\00:11:17.20
Basically, here's what it says.
00:11:17.20\00:11:19.80
James 1:17 every good gift and
every perfect gift comes from
00:11:19.80\00:11:26.06
above and comes down
from the Father of lights.
00:11:26.06\00:11:29.53
Now notice this language.
00:11:29.53\00:11:31.20
With whom there is no
variation or shadow of turning.
00:11:31.20\00:11:36.36
So, so that's the constancy idea
00:11:37.23\00:11:39.26
-- There it is.
00:11:39.26\00:11:39.96
-- That's the reliability idea.
00:11:39.96\00:11:41.40
God is who He is unalterably.
00:11:42.10\00:11:44.46
-- There you go.
00:11:44.46\00:11:45.73
-- There is nothing outside of
God that dictates to Him who He
00:11:45.73\00:11:48.90
is.
00:11:48.90\00:11:49.53
--Yeah, I got it I got it.
00:11:49.53\00:11:51.20
--So, He doesn't change.
00:11:51.20\00:11:51.96
He's unaltered toward us.
00:11:51.96\00:11:53.76
And what is that
unalterable state?
00:11:53.76\00:11:55.33
Goodness.
00:11:56.46\00:11:56.90
-- Amen
00:11:57.43\00:11:58.03
--He just
continually showering goodness.
00:11:58.96\00:12:00.73
And James
learned this from Jesus.
00:12:00.73\00:12:03.73
In the Sermon on the Mount
where Jesus says that God causes
00:12:03.73\00:12:07.93
the sun to shine on the
righteous and the wicked
00:12:07.93\00:12:10.23
and the rain to come on
the righteous and the wicked.
00:12:10.23\00:12:12.33
God is constant in His love.
00:12:12.33\00:12:15.00
And that constancy is the
only hope of anything good being
00:12:15.66\00:12:22.00
produced enough returning to
Him and reaching out to others.
00:12:22.00\00:12:25.66
-- Amen.
00:12:25.66\00:12:26.73
-- Also you have a
short one that's in Malachi 3.
00:12:26.73\00:12:29.06
And often this verse
seen in a different light.
00:12:29.06\00:12:31.60
It's usually used as a proof
text but I love the context of
00:12:31.80\00:12:33.86
it because it gives us
00:12:33.86\00:12:35.20
-- verse 6
00:12:35.20\00:12:35.96
-- yes, that's it.
00:12:35.96\00:12:37.20
I am the Lord I change not.
00:12:37.20\00:12:40.76
God is love.
00:12:40.76\00:12:42.50
So I change not means His love
00:12:42.50\00:12:45.80
-- It's who I am.
00:12:45.80\00:12:46.30
--- It's who I am.
00:12:46.30\00:12:47.10
Therefore
00:12:47.10\00:12:48.40
-- I knew it there you go.
00:12:48.40\00:12:49.36
--You sons of
Jacob are not consumed.
00:12:49.36\00:12:50.93
--Praise God.
00:12:50.93\00:12:51.50
--Isn't that something?
00:12:51.50\00:12:52.76
-- Yeah, it's beautiful because
the context is talking about His
00:12:52.76\00:12:54.46
character and how that
relates to our existence.
00:12:54.46\00:12:56.96
To the existence to the entire
world rather that a doctrinal
00:12:56.96\00:13:00.66
application of well I haven't
changed...it's more centered on
00:13:00.66\00:13:06.16
the influence that that love has
upon us as we see God for who He
00:13:06.16\00:13:10.66
really is.
00:13:10.66\00:13:11.80
-- I was playing with a
teenager's mind one time who was
00:13:11.80\00:13:13.60
not being on her best behavior.
00:13:13.60\00:13:16.80
And I said with a very straight
face, I said to her I said,
00:13:18.06\00:13:22.13
there's just
something you need to know.
00:13:22.13\00:13:23.93
God will not change His mind,
His heart, His attitude towards
00:13:25.00\00:13:29.33
you.
00:13:29.33\00:13:29.83
[Laughter]
00:13:31.66\00:13:34.23
And because of her state of
mind, because she was feeling
00:13:34.66\00:13:37.80
guilt, that
immediately for a split second.
00:13:37.80\00:13:40.93
I didn't leave her
there for very long;
00:13:40.93\00:13:42.30
[crosstalk]
00:13:42.30\00:13:44.20
it wasn't good news to her
because she was immediately
00:13:44.20\00:13:46.86
thinking that God is standing
in an attitude of condemnation
00:13:46.86\00:13:50.76
towards her.
00:13:50.76\00:13:52.26
And then I smiled and I followed
through and I showed that verse.
00:13:52.26\00:13:54.80
And basically it pointed out
that God won't change His mind
00:13:55.76\00:13:58.20
toward you.
00:13:58.20\00:13:59.30
He's changeless in His
love and His pursuit of you.
00:13:59.30\00:14:02.86
It's all going to be okay.
00:14:02.86\00:14:03.80
God loves you.
00:14:03.80\00:14:05.03
God likes you.
00:14:05.03\00:14:06.16
And I still like you too.
00:14:06.16\00:14:07.70
-- Amen.
00:14:07.70\00:14:08.86
-- So we're talking about
righteousness by faith and I
00:14:08.86\00:14:11.30
thought would it be helpful to
us just at the gate, when we say
00:14:11.30\00:14:15.73
righteousness, cause we're
talking about two concepts here.
00:14:15.73\00:14:18.50
Righteousness by faith right?
00:14:18.50\00:14:21.16
What do we mean when
we say righteousness?
00:14:22.60\00:14:24.33
Cause there's some.
00:14:25.73\00:14:26.86
--That's a very that's a
very churchy sounding term.
00:14:26.86\00:14:29.83
--Yeah very religious
00:14:29.83\00:14:31.03
--Obviously the word right
is right at the root of that.
00:14:31.03\00:14:33.50
Righteousness.
00:14:33.50\00:14:34.73
But when we think of
righteousness we often think of
00:14:34.73\00:14:38.03
-- Sort of glowing in the dark.
00:14:39.56\00:14:40.86
Piety.
00:14:40.86\00:14:41.80
--Or proper behavior.
00:14:41.80\00:14:43.76
-- Oh there you go.
00:14:43.76\00:14:44.83
--Doing the right,
righteousness, the right thing.
00:14:44.83\00:14:49.06
What are we saying when
we talk of righteousness?
00:14:49.06\00:14:52.30
--When we say that God
is righteous, the Bible is
00:14:52.30\00:14:55.50
essentially painting the
picture that God is relationally
00:14:55.50\00:14:59.86
faithful.
00:14:59.86\00:15:01.06
--That's right.
00:15:01.30\00:15:02.16
-- That God has
relational integrity.
00:15:02.16\00:15:04.80
You could say it this way.
00:15:05.63\00:15:06.90
To say God is righteous is
to say that God loves all others
00:15:06.90\00:15:13.06
above and before Himself
or at any cost to Himself.
00:15:13.06\00:15:16.73
So that in God's righteousness
the cross of Christ is
00:15:16.73\00:15:19.96
potentiated from the beginning.
00:15:19.96\00:15:21.93
-- There you go.
00:15:21.93\00:15:22.43
There you go.
00:15:22.43\00:15:23.70
--The moment God creates free
moral agents he knows that there
00:15:23.70\00:15:28.40
is the possibility in His
foreknowledge He know there is
00:15:28.40\00:15:31.36
the absolute possibility, you
know, certainty, that humanity
00:15:31.36\00:15:34.50
will fall.
00:15:34.50\00:15:35.70
So that scripture says in
Revelation 13 I think its verse
00:15:35.70\00:15:39.90
8, that Jesus is the Lamb
slain from the foundation of the
00:15:39.90\00:15:43.80
world.
00:15:43.80\00:15:44.46
Is it verse 8 I don't know?
00:15:44.46\00:15:45.20
--It is.
00:15:45.20\00:15:45.66
--Verse 8.
00:15:45.66\00:15:46.80
So the idea is that God
is relationally faithful. No
00:15:46.80\00:15:51.76
matter what you and I do He will
continue to do the right thing,
00:15:51.76\00:15:57.93
there's the word right,
00:15:57.93\00:15:58.93
-- There you go.
00:15:58.93\00:15:59.63
-- For us and to us.
00:15:59.63\00:16:00.76
--That's awesome.
00:16:00.76\00:16:02.03
--When you used the
phrase there that the cross was
00:16:02.03\00:16:05.83
potentiated or that the
potential for the cross has
00:16:05.83\00:16:09.06
always been in the heart
of God, I want to share with
00:16:09.06\00:16:11.63
you something that I find deeply
helpful, profoundly helpful.
00:16:11.63\00:16:16.26
It's actually out
of Romans chapter 1.
00:16:16.70\00:16:18.93
It's a really great place
probably to, at some point in
00:16:19.20\00:16:22.63
our conversation here in our
first conversation, we should
00:16:22.63\00:16:24.93
end up here.
00:16:24.93\00:16:26.13
--Maybe this should be our
foundational passage for this
00:16:26.13\00:16:28.16
conversation.
00:16:28.16\00:16:28.90
--And maybe for the whole
series really when you think
00:16:30.06\00:16:30.90
about it.
00:16:30.90\00:16:31.56
But in Romans 1, and I'll
let you guys sort of comment on
00:16:32.80\00:16:34.20
whatever it is you want to
comment on, but there's one
00:16:34.20\00:16:36.16
point I want to make here.
00:16:36.16\00:16:37.16
And I'll just read the
verse through, 16 and 17.
00:16:37.73\00:16:39.66
For I am not ashamed of the
Gospel of Christ, for it is the
00:16:39.66\00:16:42.13
power of God unto salvation,
for everyone who believes.
00:16:42.13\00:16:44.76
For the Jew first
and also for the Greek.
00:16:44.76\00:16:46.26
And I'm really
after verse 17 here.
00:16:46.26\00:16:48.60
For in it, (in the gospel) the
righteousness of God is revealed
00:16:49.03\00:16:53.10
from faith to faith as it is
written the just shall live by
00:16:53.10\00:16:55.73
faith.
00:16:55.73\00:16:56.40
Now here's the illustration.
00:16:56.40\00:16:56.93
Notice that it says in verse
17 the righteousness of God is
00:16:58.63\00:17:01.10
revealed, that
is to say disclosed.
00:17:01.10\00:17:04.00
Okay so I have here my IPad case
and I'm just going to hold my
00:17:04.00\00:17:06.70
hand up behind the IPad case.
00:17:06.70\00:17:09.36
Right?
00:17:09.76\00:17:11.03
Now I know that the cameraman
behind me can see my hand but
00:17:11.03\00:17:12.70
you guys can't
see my hand right now.
00:17:12.70\00:17:14.06
Is that right?
00:17:14.06\00:17:15.00
--That's right.
00:17:15.00\00:17:15.56
-- Okay now watch this.
00:17:15.56\00:17:17.00
You ready?
00:17:17.00\00:17:17.73
-- I'm ready.
00:17:18.00\00:17:18.86
-- I'm on the edge of my seat.
00:17:19.30\00:17:19.96
-- Did you see that?
00:17:21.46\00:17:21.93
[Laughter]
00:17:22.16\00:17:23.16
You want to see it again?
00:17:23.16\00:17:23.80
Here we go are you ready?
00:17:23.80\00:17:25.00
Can you see my
hand? Can you see my hand?
00:17:25.00\00:17:27.53
Can you see it?
00:17:27.53\00:17:28.06
-- Nope.
00:17:28.66\00:17:29.10
That's amazing isn't it?
00:17:30.10\00:17:31.03
I am thinking of
taking this on the road.
00:17:31.03\00:17:32.20
-- Profound.
00:17:32.20\00:17:32.90
--Now here's the point.
00:17:32.90\00:17:33.66
-- Deep too.
00:17:33.66\00:17:34.30
-- It's very deep.
00:17:34.30\00:17:35.00
Because here's the thing.
00:17:35.00\00:17:36.23
The act of pulling the case
away does not create my hand.
00:17:36.23\00:17:40.63
-- It doesn't
come into existence.
00:17:40.86\00:17:41.83
-- No that's right.
00:17:42.03\00:17:42.70
It's already there.
00:17:42.70\00:17:43.56
But you don't see it.
00:17:43.56\00:17:45.53
There's something that is
blocking you from seeing what is
00:17:45.53\00:17:48.80
already there.
00:17:48.80\00:17:50.06
When God gave freedom, when God
created a being and He knew full
00:17:50.06\00:17:54.56
well that in doing that He
was creating the potential for
00:17:54.56\00:17:58.20
disobedience for sin for rape
for murder for genocide, for all
00:17:58.20\00:18:01.73
of that.
00:18:01.73\00:18:02.93
That is in the potential
of creating something that can
00:18:02.93\00:18:07.10
resist.
00:18:07.10\00:18:07.66
That has freewill.
00:18:07.66\00:18:08.36
God knows who and what He is.
00:18:08.36\00:18:12.53
Right?
00:18:12.80\00:18:14.03
But the creative intelligences,
those human beings, whether
00:18:14.03\00:18:15.96
angelic or
human, they don't know.
00:18:15.96\00:18:19.03
They don't know fully and
completely what's in the heart
00:18:19.03\00:18:22.06
of God.
00:18:22.06\00:18:23.30
And so when we talk about God's
righteousness we're talking
00:18:23.30\00:18:25.60
about something that has
always been there, right?
00:18:25.60\00:18:29.46
From creation, in the beginning
God created the heavens and the
00:18:29.46\00:18:32.20
earth.
00:18:32.20\00:18:33.46
But which is now made known
to us by virtue of the fact that
00:18:33.46\00:18:38.40
there has been rebellion, there
has been sin, there has been a
00:18:38.40\00:18:41.50
misuse of the liberty
that God trusted us with.
00:18:41.50\00:18:44.10
And we can say, well
what's God going to do?
00:18:44.10\00:18:46.96
What will be God's attitude?
00:18:46.96\00:18:48.40
What will be God's posture
toward rebellion, sin, and
00:18:48.73\00:18:51.86
sinners?
00:18:51.86\00:18:53.30
And now we know.
00:18:53.30\00:18:54.46
--And that is what the
Bible means when it says speaks
00:18:54.46\00:18:55.86
of the righteousness of God.
00:18:55.86\00:18:57.36
--That's right.
00:18:57.36\00:18:58.26
--It's the divine
It's God's response.
00:18:58.26\00:19:00.26
It's the Divine
response to us as human beings.
00:19:00.26\00:19:03.60
But it is not an actualization
of something about God; it's a
00:19:03.60\00:19:08.23
revelation of
something about Him.
00:19:08.23\00:19:09.23
--That's right.
00:19:09.23\00:19:10.20
--It's something
that's always been there.
00:19:10.20\00:19:11.23
-- Relational fidelity.
00:19:11.23\00:19:12.86
-- You got it.
00:19:12.86\00:19:13.43
-- Relational fidelity.
00:19:13.43\00:19:14.66
-- There's a couple points I
want to make but I know we're
00:19:14.66\00:19:16.40
out of time probably
so I'm going to wait.
00:19:16.40\00:19:18.23
But
00:19:18.23\00:19:18.86
-- For the second session.
00:19:18.86\00:19:19.70
--Okay.
00:19:19.70\00:19:20.53
We'll just take
a break now then.
00:19:20.53\00:19:21.73
[Music]
00:19:21.73\00:19:24.70
This is the story of Nyema
who took a bus to the doctor and
00:19:24.70\00:19:30.00
found a piece of paper
with words of hope about Jesus.
00:19:30.00\00:19:34.56
Which was left by a church
member who unpacked a box that
00:19:34.56\00:19:38.50
came from a truck which drove
in from Durban where a ship was
00:19:38.50\00:19:42.56
docked that sailed from Seattle
loaded with containers stacked
00:19:42.56\00:19:47.80
high with millions of
tracks trucked in from the Light
00:19:47.80\00:19:51.20
Bearers Publishing House where
more than 600 million pieces of
00:19:51.20\00:19:55.70
Gospel literature have
been printed in 42 languages and
00:19:55.70\00:20:00.63
here's the amazing thing
Light Bearers distributes this
00:20:00.63\00:20:04.06
literature free of
charge all over the world.
00:20:04.06\00:20:08.03
And each piece costs only five
pennies to print, transport, and
00:20:08.30\00:20:12.20
deliver.
00:20:12.20\00:20:12.63
Everyday millions of
people buy a five-dollar cup of
00:20:15.20\00:20:17.90
coffee. Five dollars a cup.
00:20:17.90\00:20:21.03
Five days a week.
00:20:21.33\00:20:22.43
It adds up fast.
00:20:22.96\00:20:23.80
But at just five cents apiece
that same twenty five dollars
00:20:25.13\00:20:28.90
can also ship five hundred
pieces of literature and give
00:20:28.90\00:20:32.83
hope to people like Nyema
who shared that paper with a
00:20:32.83\00:20:38.03
classmate who gave it to her
cousin who shared it with his
00:20:38.03\00:20:42.13
boss who passed it to her
grandmother who left it on
00:20:42.13\00:20:46.20
another bus where it
will be found by someone else.
00:20:46.20\00:20:51.23
And the story continues.
00:20:52.20\00:20:53.23
Five cents doesn't
buy a lot these days.
00:20:55.73\00:20:57.76
But in other parts of the
world your nickel could change
00:20:58.40\00:21:01.26
someone's life.
00:21:01.26\00:21:02.26
Your gift of twenty-five dollars
a month sends out six thousand
00:21:03.73\00:21:06.80
pieces of Gospel
literature each year.
00:21:06.80\00:21:09.33
Fifty dollars sends
out twelve thousand.
00:21:10.26\00:21:11.93
And one hundred dollars a month
sends out twenty four thousand
00:21:13.10\00:21:16.23
messages of hope every
year all over the world.
00:21:16.23\00:21:20.13
Empower Light Bearers
to continue the story.
00:21:22.00\00:21:24.46
Send your gift
through Lightbearers.org.
00:21:25.33\00:21:27.70
Or by calling 877-585-1111.
00:21:28.26\00:21:32.16
Who knew five little
pennies could do so much?
00:21:33.60\00:21:36.00
[Music]
00:21:37.03\00:21:41.56
As you guys know I
wasn't raised with any Christian
00:21:43.43\00:21:47.33
background, any
religious background whatsoever.
00:21:47.33\00:21:49.86
And the same is pretty much true
of you guys as well although a
00:21:50.20\00:21:53.66
little bit of formal connection
to religion for two of you.
00:21:53.66\00:21:56.70
But here's the thing.
00:21:57.60\00:21:58.46
I had no attraction whatsoever
to the concept, to the idea, to
00:21:59.73\00:22:05.03
the notion of God or religion.
00:22:05.03\00:22:06.46
But there was a reason for that.
00:22:07.00\00:22:08.30
Because whatever little I did
know about this world that God
00:22:09.36\00:22:13.83
supposedly made, whatever little
I did know, the idea, the very
00:22:13.83\00:22:18.70
word God would trigger in me a
sense of dominance and control,
00:22:18.70\00:22:25.13
that God to my way of thinking,
and it was obviously distorted,
00:22:25.56\00:22:30.43
but God to my way of thinking
just equated to some kind of
00:22:31.53\00:22:34.96
head honcho, kind of control
freak God in the universe, who's
00:22:34.96\00:22:39.73
got a heavy hand, heavy
thumb, issuing commands,
00:22:39.73\00:22:43.16
-- Heavenly dictator.
00:22:43.16\00:22:43.73
-- Yeah.
00:22:43.73\00:22:44.23
Heavenly dictator.
00:22:44.23\00:22:45.50
--How old were you at the time
when you were having this idea?
00:22:45.50\00:22:47.96
--This is in my teenage years.
00:22:47.96\00:22:49.16
--Okay got it.
00:22:49.16\00:22:50.43
--This is when, when the idea
of God is being spoken of in my
00:22:50.43\00:22:54.03
proximity, by my
mom and my girlfriend.
00:22:54.03\00:22:57.66
-- That would have been the
natural definition in your mind.
00:22:57.66\00:22:59.43
Okay.
00:22:59.43\00:23:00.73
-- That's how I reacted but
here's the thing, we are talking
00:23:00.73\00:23:02.36
about righteousness by faith
by the time I am late in my 17th
00:23:02.36\00:23:05.83
year, I am coming to my 18th
year of life, I am beginning to
00:23:05.83\00:23:10.43
realize something through a
series of encounters that we
00:23:10.43\00:23:14.00
don't have time to get into.
00:23:14.00\00:23:15.26
What I am realizing is that God,
as God is defined, revealed in
00:23:15.26\00:23:23.00
Christ, in the narrative of
scripture, that fundamental to
00:23:23.00\00:23:28.80
God's nature is love and
therefore, fundamental to God's
00:23:28.80\00:23:31.73
relationships is
freedom, liberty.
00:23:31.73\00:23:35.13
And the reason I bring
this up is because the idea of
00:23:35.13\00:23:38.93
righteousness by faith, while
it sounds technical and real
00:23:38.93\00:23:41.90
churchy language, everybody,
myself included, we all live in
00:23:41.90\00:23:48.06
a world that has been
significantly impacted by,
00:23:48.06\00:23:52.53
shaped by, the notion, the
idea of righteousness by faith.
00:23:52.53\00:23:56.90
And what attracted me to God at
the beginning was this idea that
00:23:56.90\00:24:03.23
God is love and therefore
God is into freedom and he wants
00:24:03.23\00:24:07.40
freedom and liberty to reign.
00:24:07.40\00:24:10.10
So, actually this idea of
righteousness by faith was the
00:24:10.10\00:24:12.90
first thing I ever actually
wrote, I write just to solidify
00:24:12.90\00:24:18.83
my own thoughts, but at 18 years
of age the first thing I ever
00:24:18.83\00:24:22.13
wrote as a new Christian was
a paper called "Righteousness by
00:24:22.13\00:24:26.63
Faith".
00:24:26.63\00:24:27.90
I didn't know what it meant in
the way that we are going to be
00:24:27.90\00:24:30.83
talking about it.
00:24:30.83\00:24:31.53
But the idea
00:24:31.53\00:24:33.76
--the concept was there
00:24:33.76\00:24:34.70
-- the idea was
that, hey, wait a minute.
00:24:34.70\00:24:36.90
God is nothing like I
have imagined him to being.
00:24:36.90\00:24:40.46
God is something else than
I have concocted in my mind
00:24:40.46\00:24:45.10
through whatever influences and
faith is this trust mechanism by
00:24:45.10\00:24:49.73
which I can see God as he really
is and then draw close and
00:24:49.73\00:24:54.60
respond to him.
00:24:54.60\00:24:55.66
So that was, and
actually, James and I met
00:24:56.13\00:24:59.43
--whatever, I remember that
because when I first became,
00:24:59.43\00:25:03.80
like Ty said, I was raised
in a religious environment.
00:25:03.80\00:25:07.03
I was raised in a Catholic home
and was an altar boy but I knew
00:25:07.03\00:25:09.53
the Lord's Prayer and the Hail
Mary but I didn't really know
00:25:09.53\00:25:11.96
the Bible or Christ
as my personal savior.
00:25:11.96\00:25:13.53
-- I was an altar boy too.
00:25:13.53\00:25:14.13
-- Well, okay.
00:25:14.13\00:25:14.86
There we go.
00:25:14.86\00:25:16.13
But when I became an Adventist
and studied with the Adventists
00:25:16.13\00:25:19.33
I heard about this guy named Ty
Gibson, he was a young guy like
00:25:19.33\00:25:23.23
I was and my sister who had
become an Adventist before me
00:25:23.23\00:25:25.86
was actually hanging out with
him and studying with him, I had
00:25:25.86\00:25:29.03
never met him, but I was kind
of warned against him like, you
00:25:29.03\00:25:32.26
know, stay away from him,
he's kind of on the fringes.
00:25:32.26\00:25:34.40
I didn't know a lot about it
but, of course, I just passed
00:25:34.40\00:25:37.10
the warning on to my sister
and she told me "Well, wait a
00:25:37.10\00:25:39.96
minute.
00:25:39.96\00:25:40.53
You've never met him.
00:25:40.53\00:25:41.30
You don't know him.
00:25:41.30\00:25:41.96
You need to go at least..."
00:25:41.96\00:25:43.43
-- Give him the
benefit of the doubt.
00:25:43.43\00:25:45.23
-- Yeah, give him
the benefit of the doubt.
00:25:45.23\00:25:46.36
-- We were just kids.
00:25:46.36\00:25:47.33
I mean how much on
the fringe can you be?
00:25:47.33\00:25:48.76
I didn't, whatever...
00:25:48.76\00:25:51.13
[Laughter]
00:25:51.13\00:25:53.50
-- I think you are
hurting Ty's feelings.
00:25:53.50\00:25:54.53
-- So, I did, I just
found out where he lived.
00:25:54.53\00:25:57.13
I went to his house
and knocked on the door.
00:25:57.13\00:25:58.53
No telephone
call, nothing that like.
00:25:58.53\00:26:01.23
-- You didn't text him?
00:26:01.23\00:26:02.26
-- There was no
texting back then, no emailing.
00:26:02.26\00:26:02.83
[Laughter]
00:26:02.83\00:26:03.80
-- That was back
before telephones.
00:26:03.80\00:26:04.86
-- Back in the 1920's you know.
00:26:04.86\00:26:06.93
-- He sent the pony express.
00:26:06.93\00:26:08.96
[Laughter]
00:26:08.96\00:26:10.36
Shame.
00:26:10.36\00:26:11.26
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
00:26:11.26\00:26:12.33
So basically, I got on
my horse and I rode over...
00:26:12.33\00:26:15.50
[Laughter]
00:26:15.50\00:26:18.43
Actually, I think you
were driving a '69 Camaro or
00:26:18.43\00:26:21.36
something like that.
00:26:21.36\00:26:21.80
-- It was a '72.
00:26:21.80\00:26:22.36
I knocked on the door.
00:26:22.36\00:26:23.46
-- You are gonna
get this story out.
00:26:23.46\00:26:24.50
--Introduced myself.
00:26:24.50\00:26:25.23
"Ty, my name is James.
00:26:25.23\00:26:27.30
I am Shavan's brother.
00:26:27.30\00:26:28.70
I am here because I
just wanted to meet you."
00:26:28.70\00:26:30.40
And in my mind I am saying,
I just want to meet you and get
00:26:30.40\00:26:33.50
this out of the way because I am
going to tell my sister I went
00:26:33.50\00:26:36.03
through the preliminaries.
00:26:36.03\00:26:37.16
I went and did what I was
supposed to do and I still
00:26:37.16\00:26:40.46
haven't changed.
00:26:40.46\00:26:41.10
--And I gave you my paper.
00:26:41.10\00:26:42.86
--Righteousness by Faith
00:26:42.86\00:26:44.26
--No way, the very paper?
00:26:44.26\00:26:45.26
--Yeah yeah
00:26:45.50\00:26:46.60
Like your handwritten
paper or you photocopied it?
00:26:46.60\00:26:49.06
-- It was typed up.
00:26:49.06\00:26:50.10
-- No photocopies.
00:26:50.10\00:26:51.26
The 1920's.
00:26:52.10\00:26:53.70
--Yeah, bro.
00:26:53.70\00:26:54.50
We have photocopy machines.
00:26:54.50\00:26:56.43
-- Got it.
00:26:56.43\00:26:57.00
Okay.
00:26:57.00\00:26:57.96
-- So he just said
like "Here, take this."
00:26:57.96\00:27:00.10
-- He said, hey
and we connected.
00:27:00.10\00:27:01.76
Then he gave it to me and
I took it home and read it.
00:27:01.76\00:27:04.13
-- Did you think he was kind
of a cool guy or kind of fringy,
00:27:04.13\00:27:07.23
weird?
00:27:07.23\00:27:08.50
-- I wasn't' sure and I read the
paper and I thought, whatever he
00:27:08.50\00:27:10.70
is, this is great stuff.
00:27:10.70\00:27:12.43
-- Amen!
00:27:12.43\00:27:13.90
-- So I went back.
00:27:13.90\00:27:15.10
-- He's a very gifted writer.
00:27:15.10\00:27:16.33
-- And we talked about it and
we just continued to dialog and
00:27:16.33\00:27:18.76
started to study and
that was the whole beginning.
00:27:18.76\00:27:21.36
--The rest is history.
00:27:21.36\00:27:22.46
-- Anyways, that was
righteousness by faith for me in
00:27:22.46\00:27:24.56
a very embryonic form.
00:27:24.56\00:27:26.53
It needed to, as even now for
all of us, it needs to just take
00:27:26.53\00:27:31.80
on greater dimensions
and depth in our thinking.
00:27:31.80\00:27:34.63
-- When we broke at the end of
the last session, you said you
00:27:34.63\00:27:37.26
had something you wanted to say
but you were going to defer to
00:27:37.26\00:27:39.06
this session.
00:27:39.06\00:27:39.56
Was that it?
00:27:39.56\00:27:40.83
-- No, this is something that
has just germinated in my mind
00:27:40.83\00:27:43.36
and I am going to share this
maybe because other people think
00:27:43.36\00:27:48.90
the way that I used to think.
00:27:48.90\00:27:50.43
And therefore, I think
this might be a good point of
00:27:50.43\00:27:52.76
clarification.
00:27:52.76\00:27:53.96
When I think of the phrase
"righteousness by faith", I have
00:27:53.96\00:27:57.10
not for many, many years, ever
immediately thought of God's
00:27:57.10\00:28:01.70
righteousness toward us.
00:28:01.70\00:28:04.56
Whenever I thought of that
phrase I have always thought of
00:28:04.56\00:28:07.26
our experience of righteousness
of faith toward God.
00:28:07.26\00:28:10.83
-- So, this is a paradigm shift?
00:28:10.83\00:28:12.10
--It's a whole paradigm shift
because what I am realizing as
00:28:12.10\00:28:15.16
we study this is and I think
we are going to unlock this so I
00:28:15.16\00:28:18.03
really think this is important
is that understanding God's
00:28:18.03\00:28:21.63
righteousness toward us is the
key foundation for responding in
00:28:21.63\00:28:27.96
righteousness by
faith toward Him.
00:28:27.96\00:28:30.13
It's a two-way relational
experience and it does not, it
00:28:30.13\00:28:34.70
is not grounded in the way that
we respond, but in the way that
00:28:34.70\00:28:39.40
God responds, I am saying
this in the context to the same
00:28:39.40\00:28:42.50
problem.
00:28:42.50\00:28:43.73
Now, what I want, I want to read
a couple of verses that have
00:28:43.73\00:28:45.93
kind of cemented this in my mind
and they connect with Romans
00:28:45.93\00:28:48.50
chapter 1.
00:28:48.50\00:28:49.70
And these verses are in 2
Timothy 1, and beginning here in
00:28:49.70\00:28:54.73
verse 9, and you
will see the connection.
00:28:54.73\00:28:56.30
David, there are tons of
connecting points right here
00:28:56.30\00:28:58.70
between these two verses, but
it is talking about God and it
00:28:58.70\00:29:01.50
says, "Who...".
00:29:01.50\00:29:03.70
Okay, I am going
to start with verse 8.
00:29:03.70\00:29:05.43
"Be not thou therefore ashamed,
don't be ashamed of the Gospel,
00:29:05.43\00:29:09.80
don't be ashamed of the
testimony of our Lord, nor of me
00:29:09.80\00:29:12.10
as prisoner, but be a partaker
of the afflictions of the Gospel
00:29:12.10\00:29:15.53
according to the power of God."
00:29:15.53\00:29:16.83
So, verse 8 says don't
be ashamed of the Gospel.
00:29:16.83\00:29:18.60
Same thing as Romans 1 "Don't be
ashamed of the Gospel, the power
00:29:18.60\00:29:22.26
of God who," verse 9, God's
talking here, "who have saved us
00:29:22.26\00:29:26.20
and has called us with the holy
calling, not according to our
00:29:26.20\00:29:29.80
works, but according to his
own purpose and grace which was
00:29:29.80\00:29:34.13
given to us in Christ
Jesus, before the world began."
00:29:34.13\00:29:37.50
I am just going to try to
summarize the point I am trying
00:29:38.20\00:29:40.00
to make here.
00:29:40.00\00:29:40.63
God has acted in faithfulness
and righteousness toward us by
00:29:41.90\00:29:47.86
faith giving his son, giving
himself in the person of his son
00:29:47.86\00:29:51.33
to die in our behalf because
we were absolutely helpless.
00:29:51.33\00:29:55.10
This is the way I wrote it down,
just, just, just to have it
00:29:55.10\00:29:57.86
clear in my mind.
00:29:57.86\00:29:59.13
Righteousness by faith begins
with God, not the human and in
00:29:59.13\00:30:02.36
so doing, in beginning with God
it impacts and saves the fallen
00:30:02.36\00:30:05.93
human beings and does for us
what we cannot do for ourselves.
00:30:05.93\00:30:09.76
-- Amen, there you go
00:30:10.06\00:30:11.03
-- And that illicit
a response toward Him
00:30:11.03\00:30:12.66
-- that's the point
00:30:12.66\00:30:13.36
-- that's so clear
00:30:13.36\00:30:15.03
-- can I, when you just said
that it illicit a response, I
00:30:15.03\00:30:17.76
went to Rome with my
wife, we were just doing some
00:30:17.76\00:30:21.50
sightseeing.
00:30:21.50\00:30:22.60
We went to that chapel
where Martin Luther, you know
00:30:22.60\00:30:27.13
-- Pilate's staircase
00:30:27.13\00:30:28.53
-- with the whole
staircase - Pilate's staircase
00:30:28.53\00:30:30.40
-- on your knees
00:30:30.40\00:30:31.30
-- supposedly
it's Pilate's staircase
00:30:31.30\00:30:31.96
-- yeah, supposedly.
00:30:31.96\00:30:33.20
Going up the stairs and you
know, your knees are bleeding
00:30:33.20\00:30:35.50
and of course
00:30:35.50\00:30:36.23
-- did you go up on your knees?
00:30:36.23\00:30:37.50
-- I didn't, however close
00:30:37.50\00:30:39.90
check this out
00:30:39.90\00:30:41.16
-- this is a great series we are
doing Jeffrey, I am really glad
00:30:41.16\00:30:42.50
you're here.
00:30:42.50\00:30:43.06
-- it was good for me
00:30:43.06\00:30:43.63
-- we will set you free
00:30:43.63\00:30:44.83
-- I walked, I walked into
the chapel, I was going there
00:30:44.83\00:30:46.96
specifically to witness this
because I had read it, right,
00:30:46.96\00:30:49.50
he's walking up
and then [finger snap]
00:30:49.50\00:30:51.13
boom, the just shall live by
faith and that whole paradigm,
00:30:51.13\00:30:53.20
so I go up the stairs and
everyone is crawling up, and I
00:30:53.20\00:30:57.70
run up and I have my camera and
I, and I, and I begin to take
00:30:57.70\00:31:01.40
video footage and then I am,
just in my mind, I am thinking,
00:31:01.40\00:31:04.40
first of all I am shocked
00:31:04.40\00:31:06.40
-- these are people
00:31:06.40\00:31:07.23
-- these are real people
00:31:07.23\00:31:08.53
--dude, I can't
believe you are saying this
00:31:08.53\00:31:09.70
-- these are
real people and, and
00:31:09.70\00:31:11.43
-- in the 21st century - yeah,
today, and this is, this is the
00:31:11.43\00:31:14.73
idea that God really
likes this? God wants this?
00:31:14.73\00:31:18.50
And then I thought to
myself, I would never...
00:31:18.50\00:31:21.30
-- Oh!!
00:31:21.30\00:31:22.60
-- And then boom,
00:31:22.60\00:31:24.56
and you think how often
in just a practical daily
00:31:24.56\00:31:30.03
experience, you know we
were saying, you were saying,
00:31:30.03\00:31:32.70
somebody was saying this,
that in the same day we can
00:31:32.70\00:31:38.30
transition from new
covenant to old covenant
00:31:38.30\00:31:40.10
-- yes- in one conversation
00:31:40.10\00:31:41.20
-- yes
00:31:41.20\00:31:42.40
-- we can be n old covenant
in our mind and new covenant,
00:31:42.40\00:31:44.16
and those are concepts
that will develop here in the
00:31:44.16\00:31:46.03
future but...
00:31:46.03\00:31:47.26
Immediately I thought man on
a daily basis how often do we
00:31:47.26\00:31:49.83
relate to God in a way that's
totally foreign to scripture,
00:31:49.83\00:31:55.46
to Paul, to
Jesus, to everything.
00:31:55.46\00:31:57.43
That's not, that's not it.
00:31:57.43\00:31:59.30
We don't illicit
something from God
00:31:59.30\00:32:01.73
-- I had a similar experience
when I was in Portugal at
00:32:01.73\00:32:04.03
Fatima, and just seeing these
pilgrims on their knees and you
00:32:04.03\00:32:09.90
know the natural temptation is
to look down in a kind of, you
00:32:09.90\00:32:13.33
know
00:32:13.33\00:32:14.33
-- I wouldn't do that
00:32:14.33\00:32:16.30
-- condescension, but then,
exactly, it didn't cause me to
00:32:16.30\00:32:18.03
look down, it
caused me to look in
00:32:18.03\00:32:20.40
-- yeah, well the fact is while
some human beings are climbing
00:32:20.40\00:32:26.13
Pilate's staircase on their
knees, I think what you are
00:32:26.13\00:32:28.90
saying is that we climb
staircases, so to speak, labor,
00:32:28.90\00:32:35.13
in our minds, in our emotions,
in our relationships, in other
00:32:35.13\00:32:39.90
words whenever we are relating
to God in the way, in a way that
00:32:39.90\00:32:46.60
intends to get Him to be good
toward me by what I do, that's
00:32:46.60\00:32:52.13
the antithesis of
righteousness by faith
00:32:52.13\00:32:54.43
-- it is, same thing.
00:32:54.43\00:32:55.73
When you take this idea,
this idea that we are describing
00:32:55.73\00:32:58.06
right here and you distill it
down, and I don't want to, this
00:32:58.06\00:33:01.56
will be a simplification
but I hope it's not an over
00:33:01.56\00:33:03.60
simplification.
00:33:03.60\00:33:04.83
When you take this idea that
we are describing here and this
00:33:04.83\00:33:07.86
idea that you have just recently
touched on, Ty and Jeffrey, and
00:33:07.86\00:33:10.93
I talked about my experience at
Fatima, you can distill all the
00:33:10.93\00:33:13.93
religions of the world
down into basically two ideas.
00:33:13.93\00:33:18.23
In other words, there's hundreds
and even thousands of religious
00:33:18.23\00:33:21.16
permutations but I would like
to suggest, I think this program
00:33:21.16\00:33:24.30
wants to suggest at the outset
here, that there's really only
00:33:24.30\00:33:28.36
two manifestations of
ways to relate to God.
00:33:28.36\00:33:31.63
The world has really just two
religions with lots of different
00:33:31.63\00:33:34.60
sort of variations on a theme
00:33:34.60\00:33:36.93
-- yeah, can I add that
00:33:36.93\00:33:37.83
-- yeah, please
00:33:37.83\00:33:39.13
-- it's based on two different
ways of viewing how God relates
00:33:39.13\00:33:42.20
to us
00:33:42.20\00:33:43.46
-- that's right, the question
is, in the way that I like to
00:33:43.46\00:33:46.53
say it is, what kind of
a god are we dealing with?
00:33:46.53\00:33:49.03
Are we dealing with a god
is, the God of scripture, who
00:33:49.03\00:33:51.20
self-initiates, who is constant
within his person, who is love,
00:33:51.20\00:33:54.16
what we have been
talking about up to that point.
00:33:54.16\00:33:56.00
Or are we dealing with a god
that you believed Ty when you
00:33:56.00\00:33:58.90
were in your 16, 17, that period
where he has to be appeased.
00:33:58.90\00:34:03.10
There's dominance, there's
control, there's manipulation,
00:34:03.10\00:34:05.86
there's you know God has
got his thumb on the situation.
00:34:05.86\00:34:08.56
The language that I use for that
is what I call the "virgins in
00:34:08.56\00:34:12.83
volcanoes" god.
00:34:12.83\00:34:13.90
Right?
00:34:13.90\00:34:15.03
You know, here we are a
primitive people living on this
00:34:15.03\00:34:16.90
island and there's not enough
rain, or there's too much rain,
00:34:16.90\00:34:19.03
or whatever it might be.
00:34:19.03\00:34:21.00
Whatever the natural disaster or
somebody's sick and god's angry
00:34:21.00\00:34:25.10
clearly and he or they have to
be appeased and so we are going
00:34:25.10\00:34:31.60
to find a sacrifice here.
00:34:31.60\00:34:33.13
Something that would be
acceptable to a god and we are
00:34:33.13\00:34:36.16
going to bring that sacrifice up
to the volcano and we are going
00:34:36.16\00:34:39.10
to throw her in or the sheep in
or whatever the thing is, throw
00:34:39.10\00:34:42.43
the virgin into the volcano and
god says "Okay, now I am happy."
00:34:42.43\00:34:45.13
Now you have at least
temporarily satiated my wrath
00:34:45.13\00:34:48.43
and here's some rain or some
sun or whatever it might be.
00:34:48.43\00:34:51.60
That's an oversimplification
but there are lots of people and
00:34:51.60\00:34:57.90
lots of Christians that relate
to God on the basis of "I'm
00:34:57.90\00:35:00.83
going to do something, say
something, be something, buy
00:35:00.83\00:35:03.73
something that will
cause God to do something."
00:35:03.73\00:35:07.56
-- And we do it, I mean we do it
in all kinds of different ways.
00:35:07.56\00:35:12.76
Have you ever, for example,
I'll just use myself in my
00:35:12.76\00:35:16.40
own experience.
00:35:16.40\00:35:17.80
I remember very clearly feeling
the guilt and the sting of a
00:35:17.80\00:35:24.26
conscience that has violated and
then feeling like man, I really
00:35:24.26\00:35:29.66
need to go to
church this week [laughter]
00:35:29.66\00:35:32.36
[crosstalk]
00:35:32.36\00:35:33.60
I need to make up for, I
need to purchase favor with God.
00:35:33.60\00:35:38.30
In this view it's the
"virgins in the volcano" idea.
00:35:38.30\00:35:41.43
It's the idea that
God is a vending machine.
00:35:41.43\00:35:44.30
That he requires
coin, he requires
00:35:44.30\00:35:47.26
-- some kind of currency
00:35:47.26\00:35:48.80
-- something in order to give
us the favor that our hearts and
00:35:48.80\00:35:54.10
minds crave, but, but yeah.
00:35:54.10\00:35:58.40
So we are basically saying that
there are only two religions in
00:35:58.40\00:36:01.83
the world by which we don't
mean by the way...we don't mean,
00:36:01.83\00:36:06.10
"ours is the right religion
and all the others are wrong".
00:36:06.10\00:36:09.50
What we do mean, and I like
the fact that you used the word
00:36:09.50\00:36:13.50
"idea".
00:36:13.50\00:36:14.20
There are two different ideas
00:36:14.20\00:36:15.60
-- ideologies
00:36:15.60\00:36:16.83
-- ideologies, two different
theological constructs, if you
00:36:16.83\00:36:20.46
will, of God that leads to two
different diametrically opposed
00:36:20.46\00:36:24.50
experiences as a human
being in relation to God
00:36:24.50\00:36:27.56
-- and those two ways of
thinking break through all the
00:36:27.56\00:36:30.80
barriers of religious
denominations - there you go
00:36:30.80\00:36:33.50
-- they even break the barriers
that are among us and they
00:36:33.50\00:36:36.76
permeate into the very heart and
the very mind of the way each of
00:36:36.76\00:36:40.63
us, individually
00:36:40.63\00:36:41.46
-- there you go
00:36:41.46\00:36:42.70
-- and the whole of the world
humanity collectively think.
00:36:42.70\00:36:45.20
-- Guys, how many people have
given up on God and the whole
00:36:45.20\00:36:49.83
"Jesus" thing because
they have been burnt out?
00:36:49.83\00:36:54.46
And it's not because there
is anything wrong with God, it's
00:36:54.46\00:36:57.73
because the way they
have been relating to God?
00:36:57.73\00:36:59.83
--There you go
00:36:59.83\00:37:00.83
-- Isn't it
exhausting to think of God...
00:37:00.83\00:37:02.93
I love the whole
vending machine thing.
00:37:02.93\00:37:05.10
He requires coin.
00:37:05.10\00:37:06.50
To think of God as someone
who needs to be appeased on a
00:37:06.50\00:37:10.50
regular basis.
00:37:10.50\00:37:13.20
That's exhausting
emotionally, psychologically
00:37:13.20\00:37:14.63
-- well the thing is,
you will never pull it off,
00:37:14.63\00:37:16.23
--you'll never, you
will always be in a constant
00:37:16.23\00:37:19.50
state of anxiety
00:37:19.50\00:37:21.10
-- I just wrote the word
insecurity down on my piece of
00:37:21.10\00:37:23.96
paper
00:37:23.96\00:37:25.23
-- and people, people will give
up on God because of that just
00:37:25.23\00:37:27.76
-- can I say something that
might help you and it certainly
00:37:27.76\00:37:31.16
has helped me in that language?
00:37:31.16\00:37:32.96
I find this
extremely liberating.
00:37:32.96\00:37:35.33
Those people are not giving
up on the God of scripture
00:37:35.33\00:37:38.50
-- yes, say it please
00:37:38.50\00:37:40.56
-- Amen
00:37:40.56\00:37:41.63
-- they are giving up
on a god who doesn't exist
00:37:41.63\00:37:42.93
-- and in a way praise God that
they are giving up on that "god"
00:37:42.93\00:37:47.40
-- And that's why God reads the
heart and knows where they are
00:37:47.40\00:37:49.53
-- that's right
00:37:49.53\00:37:50.46
-- and that's why
this is such good news
00:37:50.46\00:37:52.00
-- absolutely, because when they
are introduced to, just like Ty,
00:37:52.00\00:37:54.46
your experience and your
experience when you met Ty.
00:37:54.46\00:37:56.83
When you are introduced to not
just a better picture of God,
00:37:56.83\00:38:01.16
like "nanny, nanny, boo, boo, my
god is better than your god" but
00:38:01.16\00:38:03.30
the Biblical picture of God,
it's not a vending machine, it's
00:38:03.30\00:38:07.40
not virgins in volcanoes, it's
not us initiating and appeasing
00:38:07.40\00:38:11.46
God or in some sense creating
within Him what wasn't already
00:38:11.46\00:38:14.23
there, it's this picture
00:38:14.23\00:38:16.33
--revealing
00:38:16.33\00:38:17.40
-- look at how
awesome He is and was.
00:38:17.40\00:38:18.90
So, when I hear that people give
up on those views of God in a
00:38:18.90\00:38:21.56
small way, in my heart
00:38:21.56\00:38:23.70
-- Hallelujah
00:38:23.70\00:38:24.40
-- I rejoice.
00:38:24.40\00:38:25.26
-- Hallelujah
00:38:25.26\00:38:25.96
-- And what about historically?
00:38:25.96\00:38:27.73
We are talking about how this
has revolutionary effects on
00:38:27.73\00:38:30.80
somebody, Luther, we mentioned
briefly here, I mean just look
00:38:30.80\00:38:35.53
at historically speaking
00:38:35.53\00:38:37.60
--there you go, --yeah
00:38:37.60\00:38:38.86
-- when you can pinpoint when
this concept or these concepts
00:38:38.86\00:38:42.86
poke their heads up throughout
history, one of these mileposts
00:38:42.86\00:38:47.56
would have been during
the Martin Luther time of the
00:38:47.56\00:38:50.93
Prodestant Reformation and
the massive ripple effects, that
00:38:50.93\00:38:55.33
idea, just one man standing
up and saying "Wait a second".
00:38:55.33\00:38:58.33
I think we've got it wrong
00:38:58.33\00:39:00.96
-- yeah, things
are upside down there
00:39:00.96\00:39:02.70
-- It's upside down and
then what happens effects on the
00:39:02.70\00:39:06.20
political level, on the social
level and now we're living in a
00:39:06.20\00:39:10.80
world that has benefitted
from the notions of liberty and
00:39:10.80\00:39:15.73
freedom that could be traced
to this revolutionary idea
00:39:15.73\00:39:18.96
-- Actually, I started to
talk about that and then we kind
00:39:18.96\00:39:20.80
of forgot about it.
00:39:20.80\00:39:22.03
You remember we said that we
live in a world right now that
00:39:22.03\00:39:26.16
has been dramatically impacted
and shaped by the idea of
00:39:26.16\00:39:29.30
righteousness by faith and what
I meant when I said two specific
00:39:29.30\00:39:33.43
times in history, not that there
aren't more, was in the writing
00:39:33.43\00:39:36.76
and preaching of Paul,
the first, basically the first
00:39:36.76\00:39:40.26
Christian
missionary of the world
00:39:40.26\00:39:41.46
-- the greatest exponent,
got it -- and his point was, his
00:39:41.46\00:39:43.96
teaching was righteousness by
faith and the world was turned
00:39:43.96\00:39:46.33
upside down, by which we
actually mean right side up.
00:39:46.33\00:39:49.00
-- There you go, come on
00:39:49.00\00:39:50.26
-- and then darkness sets in on
the world after the revolution
00:39:50.26\00:39:55.26
of the New Testament church
and then here comes Luther and
00:39:55.26\00:39:59.06
Martin Luther, as
you are saying Jeffrey.
00:39:59.06\00:40:01.06
Martin Luther initiates, with
the concept of righteousness by
00:40:01.06\00:40:05.46
faith, a series of thoughts that
connect together that ultimately
00:40:05.46\00:40:11.16
produce some of the things that
we experience on a daily basis
00:40:11.16\00:40:15.33
and take for granted
00:40:15.33\00:40:16.56
-- We are living in the wake
of Martin Luther's thinking and
00:40:16.56\00:40:20.76
ultimately of Paul's thinking
and ultimately of Jesus'
00:40:20.76\00:40:23.06
thinking
00:40:23.06\00:40:23.50
We are living...
00:40:23.50\00:40:25.33
TWe are.. They
sneezed and we got a cold.
00:40:25.33\00:40:27.70
-- We got well
00:40:28.90\00:40:29.73
[laughter]
00:40:29.73\00:40:30.43
-- That's another way to say it.
00:40:30.43\00:40:31.63
One thing I love, Jeffrey,
that was extremely historically
00:40:31.63\00:40:34.56
accurate when you said that
Martin Luther said, "Hey, wait a
00:40:34.56\00:40:38.70
minute."
00:40:38.70\00:40:39.96
Maybe we don't have this right
because Luther was, himself, a
00:40:39.96\00:40:43.20
member of the system
that was perpetuating.
00:40:43.20\00:40:46.13
He said, "Hey, we, me.."
00:40:46.13\00:40:48.13
and we need to take that
same humility, ourselves, and it
00:40:48.13\00:40:51.60
can't just be looking, okay and
look at this and look at this
00:40:51.60\00:40:53.93
-- wrong, wrong, wrong,
wrong, wrong, we got it right
00:40:53.93\00:40:55.40
-- it needs to be
"hey, do I have it right"?
00:40:55.40\00:40:56.76
-- Think about this though, you
initiated this idea of freedom
00:40:56.76\00:41:01.83
in liberty but think about this.
00:41:01.83\00:41:03.90
Martin Luther realizes the
truth of justification by faith,
00:41:03.90\00:41:07.83
righteousness by faith.
00:41:07.83\00:41:09.20
That casts a vision in a context
because his context is a world
00:41:09.20\00:41:15.56
in which the dignity and freedom
of conscience for the individual
00:41:15.56\00:41:19.96
is pretty much non-existent.
00:41:19.96\00:41:21.60
You don't think for yourself,
you don't relate directly to God
00:41:21.60\00:41:25.06
--that's right
00:41:25.06\00:41:26.33
-- there's this entire colossal,
mammoth system that is dictating
00:41:26.33\00:41:30.80
how you are to think and feel
about God and relate to God.
00:41:30.80\00:41:34.30
Well, Luther, I mean, think
about this, He gets the idea of
00:41:34.30\00:41:38.36
justification by faith in his
mind and he, picture it, he's
00:41:38.36\00:41:41.23
standing, a single solitary
individual on the premise of the
00:41:41.23\00:41:46.46
liberty that he has in Christ.
00:41:46.46\00:41:47.73
He is standing before this
monolithic system of religion
00:41:47.73\00:41:52.53
and politics and he essentially
says, "From now on I am thinking
00:41:52.53\00:41:57.60
for myself and what God has
revealed to me in His Word is
00:41:57.60\00:42:02.60
that He is
beautiful in the extreme..."
00:42:02.60\00:42:05.53
-- the just shall live by faith
--" the just shall live by faith
00:42:05.53\00:42:07.43
and I'm not going to be
groveling anymore to gain His
00:42:07.43\00:42:10.86
favor because I
already have it."
00:42:10.86\00:42:12.86
-- The Gospel empowered the
individual, it empowered the
00:42:12.86\00:42:16.76
now an individualist standing,
in confidence and in boldness
00:42:16.76\00:42:21.03
before the greatest powers
of the time and the day, because
00:42:21.03\00:42:25.36
the Gospel brings liberation,
freedom and empowerment.
00:42:25.36\00:42:28.53
-- I have a secular documentary,
it's a PBS documentary on, or it
00:42:28.53\00:42:33.36
might be BBC, documentary on
Martin Luther and they have a
00:42:33.36\00:42:36.06
number of
00:42:36.06\00:42:37.26
--PBS, I love that one
00:42:37.26\00:42:39.03
-- theologians
00:42:39.03\00:42:40.03
-- yeah, you know the
one I am talking about
00:42:40.03\00:42:40.46
-- absolutely
00:42:40.46\00:42:41.60
-- They have a number of
theologians on there as well but
00:42:41.60\00:42:42.80
they have a number of just
historians, secular university
00:42:42.80\00:42:44.93
historians, and to a person,
they say that what Luther did
00:42:44.93\00:42:49.06
was not just Ecclesiastically
significant, that is to say,
00:42:49.06\00:42:51.93
within the church, he literally,
he was the fulcrum upon which
00:42:51.93\00:42:56.16
the entire sway of
Western Civilization tipped.
00:42:56.16\00:43:00.13
That when this idea...
00:43:00.13\00:43:01.43
--we should
include the others as well
00:43:01.43\00:43:03.13
-- Of course.
00:43:03.13\00:43:04.40
Luther is the archetype but the
idea that one person is going to
00:43:04.40\00:43:09.56
say, "I will be true to God and
I will be true to myself and I
00:43:09.56\00:43:14.00
am going to buck the system.
00:43:14.00\00:43:15.40
I don't think I need the priest.
00:43:15.40\00:43:17.86
I don't think I need the church.
00:43:17.86\00:43:18.80
I don't think I
need the Eucharist.
00:43:18.80\00:43:19.96
I don't think I need the saints.
00:43:19.96\00:43:22.56
I don't think I need Mary.
00:43:22.56\00:43:23.56
I am just gonna sort
of circumvent all of that.
00:43:23.56\00:43:25.76
I am going straight to God.
00:43:25.76\00:43:27.16
-- And the truth
shall set you free
00:43:27.16\00:43:28.53
-- Guys, the American experiment
that the very world in which we
00:43:28.53\00:43:34.16
live in which also has
impacted the whole world.
00:43:34.16\00:43:38.00
This is basically the idea that
righteousness by faith, even
00:43:38.00\00:43:45.03
though we don't think of
this directly, there's a direct
00:43:45.03\00:43:46.93
linkage or connection between
those ideas and the formation of
00:43:46.93\00:43:51.83
a nation on the premise of
the liberty of the individual.
00:43:51.83\00:43:56.50
-- Inalienable rights
00:43:56.50\00:43:57.86
-- Yeah, I would go so far as to
say, even though we would have
00:43:57.86\00:44:00.86
to flesh it out more and we
won't have the time, that is
00:44:00.86\00:44:03.46
that the Gospel of Jesus Christ
has impacted, as you were saying
00:44:03.46\00:44:09.00
not only religion but
politics to the degree that the
00:44:09.00\00:44:12.83
Constitution of the United
States of America is the Gospel
00:44:12.83\00:44:16.90
formulated into a
governing document.
00:44:16.90\00:44:20.43
In the principle, the
foundational principle that all
00:44:20.43\00:44:24.90
men are created equal.
00:44:24.90\00:44:27.76
I mean, it's there...
00:44:27.76\00:44:29.50
-- Amen, whether the nation
stays consistent with it or not,
00:44:29.50\00:44:31.56
that's irrelevant
00:44:31.56\00:44:33.50
-- [crosstalk]
00:44:33.50\00:44:35.50
-- We have a lot of viewers who
are not from the United States
00:44:35.50\00:44:38.00
of America.
00:44:38.00\00:44:38.56
We get that.
00:44:38.56\00:44:39.80
What we are saying is that
the idea of liberty, the idea of
00:44:39.80\00:44:41.30
freedom, the idea of a creator
making everyone equal and that
00:44:41.30\00:44:45.46
you worship God according to the
dictates of your own conviction
00:44:45.46\00:44:48.96
and conscience, that's,
those are Christian principles.
00:44:48.96\00:44:52.46
Those are Biblical principles;
those are "righteousness by
00:44:52.46\00:44:54.86
faith" principles.
00:44:54.86\00:44:55.96
-- And we are modeling
it by sitting around a table
00:44:55.96\00:44:58.76
-- Amen
00:44:58.76\00:45:00.10
-- Having an open conversation
about these kinds of things, we
00:45:00.10\00:45:03.80
are literally engaged in a
priesthood of all believers and
00:45:03.80\00:45:07.00
individual freedom that brings
people together to think for
00:45:07.00\00:45:13.16
themselves and to live before
God as he really is, a God who
00:45:13.16\00:45:17.96
believe in liberty
00:45:17.96\00:45:19.86
-- As they were
created to live -- Amen
00:45:19.86\00:45:21.03
-- We have to take a break
again, and then we will come
00:45:21.03\00:45:23.70
back and
continue our discussion.
00:45:23.70\00:45:25.20
-- Amen
00:45:25.20\00:45:26.53
[Music]
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[Music]
00:46:23.00\00:46:26.50
All of this conversation about
liberty is really prompting my
00:46:26.50\00:46:31.03
mind, and I think yours too, to
a text we all love, Galatians 5.
00:46:31.03\00:46:36.56
I will say, as we are all
going there, this verse has been
00:46:36.56\00:46:39.20
foremost in my mind for years
and years because this happens
00:46:39.20\00:46:42.26
to be my wife's
favorite Bible verse
00:46:42.26\00:46:44.26
-- oh, really?
00:46:44.26\00:46:45.36
Wow!
00:46:45.36\00:46:45.90
Number one?
00:46:45.90\00:46:47.10
Numero uno?
00:46:47.10\00:46:48.23
-- Galatians 5 verse 1.
00:46:48.23\00:46:49.96
So, Galatians 5:1,
this is powerful isn't it?
00:46:49.96\00:46:54.50
-- Beautiful
00:46:54.50\00:46:55.63
-- I mean, this verse
encapsulates the idea that we
00:46:55.63\00:46:58.80
have been trying to get at
in the conversation so far.
00:46:58.80\00:47:03.00
"Stand fast therefore, in the
liberty by which Christ has made
00:47:03.00\00:47:07.76
us free and do not be entangled
again with the yoke of bondage."
00:47:07.76\00:47:12.43
There's a lot there.
00:47:12.43\00:47:13.70
There's a lot to unpack there
but my initial idea regarding
00:47:13.70\00:47:19.00
this verse was just the idea of
liberty and when I first read it
00:47:19.00\00:47:22.53
years and years ago I
thought "okay, stop sinning"
00:47:22.53\00:47:24.36
[chuckling]
00:47:26.00\00:47:27.26
What this is saying, really is,
that there is a foundational,
00:47:27.26\00:47:31.06
--something more powerful
00:47:31.06\00:47:32.33
-- objective freedom that Jesus
historically has achieved on our
00:47:32.33\00:47:37.13
behalf and that that liberty
that he has achieved as our
00:47:37.13\00:47:41.43
representative had, we will get
into that kind of language later
00:47:41.43\00:47:44.30
on in our discussion, but what
Jesus has achieved, that liberty
00:47:44.30\00:47:47.46
He has achieved, is the liberty
that we are now invited now to
00:47:47.46\00:47:51.10
stand in.
00:47:51.10\00:47:52.23
We are invited to participate
in --claim it, claim it
00:47:52.23\00:47:55.16
-- experience the
thing that He's done
00:47:55.16\00:47:58.16
-- Amen, I love this because it
connects liberty with Christ and
00:47:58.16\00:48:01.56
I know when I first came to
Christ, that's what I needed.
00:48:01.56\00:48:05.56
I needed liberty, I needed
freedom, I needed to be able to
00:48:05.56\00:48:08.23
live the life that God wanted me
to live and not be continually
00:48:08.23\00:48:11.83
brought into bondage and do the
things that in my conscience,
00:48:11.83\00:48:15.50
even though I wasn't a
practicing Christian or a
00:48:15.50\00:48:17.96
practicing Bible-believer, per
se, in my conscience I felt like
00:48:17.96\00:48:23.03
they were wrong and I
didn't want to do those things.
00:48:23.03\00:48:24.73
I felt bad about them, but I
felt like there was no power and
00:48:24.73\00:48:27.56
no strength.
00:48:27.56\00:48:28.83
It wasn't until I was introduced
to Jesus that I found liberty.
00:48:28.83\00:48:31.70
So, I love the way this verse
connects Christ with liberty
00:48:31.70\00:48:35.26
because sometimes people
think of Christ or Christians or
00:48:35.26\00:48:38.63
religion and they
connect it with bondage.
00:48:38.63\00:48:40.60
They connect...
00:48:40.60\00:48:41.33
--restrictions and rules
00:48:41.33\00:48:42.93
-- but when we see this in the
context of the real experience,
00:48:42.93\00:48:48.63
the joy, the peace that God
wants for us, it's actually an
00:48:48.63\00:48:51.93
experience; Christianity
is an experience of liberty.
00:48:51.93\00:48:54.40
--Yeah, yeah, it really is.
00:48:54.40\00:48:55.93
--Most modern translations
render this, in fact my own
00:48:55.93\00:48:59.30
margin of reference here in the
New King James version renders
00:48:59.30\00:49:01.53
this verse as "For freedom
Christ has made us free, stand
00:49:01.53\00:49:06.20
fast therefore..."
00:49:06.20\00:49:07.13
Etc, etc, etc. and
I love that language.
00:49:07.13\00:49:08.63
For freedom
Christ has set us free.
00:49:08.63\00:49:12.00
We often think about freedom in
the context of being a means to
00:49:12.00\00:49:17.50
an end.
00:49:17.50\00:49:18.53
You are free to "fill
in the blank", whatever.
00:49:18.53\00:49:20.76
To do this, to do this,
to do this, to do this...
00:49:20.76\00:49:22.03
But freedom is not only a means
to an end it's an end in itself.
00:49:22.03\00:49:26.63
The idea of freedom is a virtue.
00:49:26.63\00:49:30.20
It is a value.
00:49:30.20\00:49:31.70
-- It's innate to
the character of God.
00:49:31.70\00:49:33.13
-- I am so glad you said that
because earlier the very first
00:49:33.13\00:49:35.93
verse we looked at was
1 John chapter 4 verse 19.
00:49:35.93\00:49:38.06
We love him
because he first loved us.
00:49:38.06\00:49:40.73
Now here's the interesting
thing, implicit in the verse is
00:49:40.73\00:49:43.53
the idea of freedom.
00:49:43.53\00:49:44.63
We choose to love him
because he first loved us.
00:49:44.63\00:49:49.76
Implicit in that
is you don't have to.
00:49:49.76\00:49:51.10
--Right
00:49:51.10\00:49:52.36
-- If there was no freedom it
would say "We love him" well you
00:49:52.36\00:49:53.90
can't actually say that
because love requires freedom.
00:49:53.90\00:49:56.40
The whole idea that we return,
that we reciprocate love to God
00:49:56.40\00:50:00.76
without the idea of freedom,
without, not just the idea of
00:50:00.76\00:50:04.66
it, but the reality of freedom.
00:50:04.66\00:50:06.13
This doesn't happen.
00:50:06.13\00:50:07.90
And so I just like the idea that
we are called to be free for
00:50:07.90\00:50:13.10
freedom's sake.
00:50:13.10\00:50:14.36
That is a value and a
virtue in and of itself.
00:50:14.36\00:50:16.46
And here's an interesting
thing, it's intuitive.
00:50:16.46\00:50:19.36
This idea of freedom is
intuitive and the illustration
00:50:19.36\00:50:23.03
that I use is this one,
tell me what you think of it.
00:50:23.03\00:50:25.96
If you are just walking down the
street, somewhere, in the mall,
00:50:25.96\00:50:29.46
where ever it doesn't
matter where, and someone
00:50:29.46\00:50:31.73
comes up to you and grabs
you by the arm, right if they
00:50:31.73\00:50:34.93
just come up and grab you by
the arm and start just pulling
00:50:34.93\00:50:37.40
you, will you go with them?
00:50:37.40\00:50:40.26
--No
00:50:40.26\00:50:41.40
-- No you're
00:50:41.40\00:50:41.86
[crosstalk]
00:50:41.86\00:50:44.36
-- you instantly,
instinctively you resist.
00:50:44.36\00:50:48.90
Why?
00:50:48.90\00:50:50.03
Because you sense even
autonomically there is something
00:50:50.03\00:50:54.06
wrong with coercion.
00:50:54.06\00:50:55.73
There is something wrong with
being forced, with being pulled.
00:50:55.73\00:50:58.70
Which is why we can say without
any, even if we didn't have the
00:50:58.70\00:51:01.36
text of scripture, we would know
intuitively slavery is wrong,
00:51:01.36\00:51:04.73
coercion is wrong,
manipulation is wrong.
00:51:04.73\00:51:06.90
-- And anybody who's been
married, and all of us are
00:51:06.90\00:51:09.33
married, knows that
00:51:09.33\00:51:12.00
--Jeffrey's married?
00:51:12.00\00:51:12.46
-- Yes, he is.
00:51:12.46\00:51:13.36
--He's the least married.
00:51:13.36\00:51:14.76
--5 plus years, veteran
00:51:14.76\00:51:16.60
[Laughter]
00:51:16.60\00:51:19.76
and from what I have observed,
you are good at it, good at
00:51:19.76\00:51:22.56
being married.
00:51:22.56\00:51:23.76
-- But anybody who's been
married knows that coercion, and
00:51:23.76\00:51:27.26
love can't occupy the
same psychological space.
00:51:27.26\00:51:30.86
You know what I am saying?
00:51:30.86\00:51:32.13
The moment you start turning in
the screws, the moment you start
00:51:32.13\00:51:36.13
putting on the heavy hand
00:51:36.13\00:51:37.86
-- people emotionally shut
down -- the moment you start
00:51:37.86\00:51:39.63
manipulating, controlling,
dictating, on an emotional level
00:51:39.63\00:51:43.23
or on a physical level, the
natural impulses, you are saying
00:51:43.23\00:51:47.13
David, is to back
up and to be free.
00:51:47.13\00:51:50.06
-- Yes.
00:51:50.06\00:51:50.73
To shut down.
00:51:50.73\00:51:52.40
Look at this here where is says
to stand fast therefore, or for
00:51:52.40\00:51:56.56
freedom Christ has made us free.
00:51:56.56\00:51:58.53
He says, "Stand fast therefore,
and do not be entangled again
00:51:58.53\00:52:01.46
with the yoke of bondage."
00:52:01.46\00:52:02.80
Earlier in the conversation
we talked about the idea that if
00:52:02.80\00:52:06.76
God is the kind of god, the
virgins in volcanoes god, the
00:52:06.76\00:52:09.86
appeasement god, the god that
"I'm gonna walk up the stairs",
00:52:09.86\00:52:12.90
you'll always wonder,
"Have I walked up enough stairs?
00:52:12.90\00:52:15.66
Have we thrown enough
virgins into the volcano?
00:52:15.66\00:52:18.30
Have I...?"
00:52:18.30\00:52:19.40
It creates a low-grade
insecurity that produces an
00:52:19.40\00:52:23.23
ongoing state of bondage.
00:52:23.23\00:52:26.10
Have I done enough?
00:52:26.10\00:52:27.33
Have I paid enough?
00:52:27.33\00:52:28.30
Have I said enough?
00:52:28.30\00:52:29.56
Just to go back to the Fatima
experience that I had when I was
00:52:29.56\00:52:31.40
in Portugal.
00:52:31.40\00:52:32.63
This was a deeply troubling
and impacting experience for me
00:52:32.63\00:52:35.76
because, there, not only did you
have the Shrine of Fatima, but
00:52:35.76\00:52:39.03
outside there were vendors
and not one or two, dozens and
00:52:39.03\00:52:43.26
dozens and dozens of vendors
and what they were selling, I
00:52:43.26\00:52:46.46
couldn't believe my eyes.
00:52:46.46\00:52:47.73
They were selling wax, either
candles or a wax figurine of a
00:52:47.73\00:52:54.80
child, a wax figurine of a hand,
a wax figurine of a leg, of a
00:52:54.80\00:52:59.36
breast, a wax
figurine of a nose.
00:52:59.36\00:53:02.33
-- What?
00:53:02.33\00:53:02.93
-- Of a car...
00:53:02.93\00:53:03.60
-- Wherever the problem is.
00:53:03.60\00:53:04.86
-- Exactly, and what you would
do, what pilgrims would do is
00:53:04.86\00:53:07.13
they'll go buy the wax figurine
of the female breast because
00:53:07.13\00:53:10.30
somebody has breast cancer.
00:53:10.30\00:53:11.73
And they bring this and
they offer this as a sort of
00:53:11.73\00:53:15.26
offering, as a child or whatever
and you just wondered.and there
00:53:15.26\00:53:21.80
were different sizes.
00:53:21.80\00:53:22.90
There was this candle,
and this candle, and this...
00:53:22.90\00:53:24.86
And the hand
that's this small, and ...
00:53:24.86\00:53:26.93
they all cost more.
00:53:26.93\00:53:28.73
So the question is "How can I
get God to do this thing that I
00:53:28.73\00:53:34.36
need him to do?
00:53:34.36\00:53:35.63
Does he need the small hand, the
medium hand or the large hand?"
00:53:35.63\00:53:38.53
-- Wow
00:53:38.53\00:53:39.06
-- That's bondage.
00:53:39.06\00:53:40.26
-- Yeah, how big is the problem
-- We were not created for
00:53:40.26\00:53:42.36
bondage, we were
created for freedom.
00:53:42.36\00:53:44.06
-- But yet we are prone, we seem
to be prone to revert to that,
00:53:44.06\00:53:47.06
because we talked about the
historical continuum, we talked
00:53:47.06\00:53:50.16
about Jesus and Paul introduces
this idea of revolutionary.
00:53:50.16\00:53:53.46
And then the next name
that comes up is Luther.
00:53:53.46\00:53:56.26
-- That's a
whole lot of history.
00:53:56.26\00:53:57.80
-- There's a whole
lot of years between us.
00:53:57.80\00:53:59.33
The question is up to
this revolutionary thing gets
00:53:59.33\00:54:01.30
introduced to the world, why all
these centuries in what we call
00:54:01.30\00:54:05.90
the dark ages?
00:54:05.90\00:54:07.03
We seem to be prone to
be, because we are projecting
00:54:07.03\00:54:09.90
ourselves, who we are, to God.
00:54:09.90\00:54:13.96
-- Jeffrey, it's because it's
embedded in our psyche, there's
00:54:13.96\00:54:18.03
a primal lie that we have
received as a legacy from the
00:54:18.03\00:54:21.73
fall.
00:54:21.73\00:54:23.13
We are all infected with it.
00:54:23.13\00:54:24.46
Our natural inclination,
like the law of gravity, is to
00:54:24.46\00:54:29.13
gravitate toward an appeasement
picture of God because we are
00:54:29.13\00:54:34.36
trying to deal with our
guilt and our shame, but we are
00:54:34.36\00:54:39.20
dealing with our guilt and our
shame in the context of a lie.
00:54:39.20\00:54:42.66
So because you are in the
context of this lie you don't
00:54:42.66\00:54:46.30
see God as God is, you begin
with a position of disfavor in
00:54:46.30\00:54:51.50
His attitude toward you.
00:54:51.50\00:54:52.76
The only option, and this is the
Gospel is you can begin with a
00:54:52.76\00:54:57.23
premise of favor.
00:54:57.23\00:54:58.56
I don't condemn you,
who told you you were naked?
00:54:58.56\00:55:03.43
Genesis chapter 3.
00:55:03.43\00:55:04.70
Why are you experiencing this
strong repelling feeling toward
00:55:04.70\00:55:12.50
me?
00:55:12.50\00:55:13.50
I am not repelling you,
I am not condemning you.
00:55:13.50\00:55:16.23
-- I love you with
an everlasting love.
00:55:16.23\00:55:17.50
I am the Lord I change not.
00:55:17.50\00:55:19.30
I never change towards you.
00:55:19.30\00:55:20.66
-- The text I just really want
to bring out, we don't have to
00:55:20.66\00:55:23.63
turn there, but I will
just tell you the story.
00:55:23.63\00:55:25.03
John chapter 8 is one of the
most intense conversations that
00:55:25.03\00:55:28.70
Jesus had with the religious
leaders of his day and in this
00:55:28.70\00:55:31.36
particular conversation they
are talking about a great many
00:55:31.36\00:55:33.46
things, but one of the
things is who's your father?
00:55:33.46\00:55:36.16
And they have the audacity
to say, in John 8:33, they are
00:55:36.16\00:55:41.36
saying to Jesus, the religious
leaders, "We are Abraham's
00:55:41.36\00:55:43.90
descendants and we have never
been in bondage to anyone."
00:55:43.90\00:55:47.26
So here is this idea of bondage.
00:55:47.26\00:55:48.53
We are not in bondage.
00:55:48.53\00:55:49.80
Now they are speaking, of
course, about a political,
00:55:49.80\00:55:52.63
national you know, bondage.
00:55:52.63\00:55:55.00
A military sort of bondage.
00:55:55.00\00:55:56.40
No no no now by the way, that's
a very selective memory because
00:55:56.40\00:55:59.70
quite the opposite...
00:55:59.70\00:56:01.36
[Crosstalk]
00:56:01.36\00:56:03.66
-- But it is so interesting what
Jesus says, Jesus says, okay you
00:56:03.66\00:56:05.86
want to talk about bondage.
00:56:05.86\00:56:07.13
I am not going to talk about the
borders of your nation; I am not
00:56:07.13\00:56:09.26
going to talk about that at all.
00:56:09.26\00:56:10.53
I am not going to talk about
Rome, I am not gonna talk about
00:56:10.53\00:56:12.36
Greece, I am not gonna talk
about Egypt, we won't have that
00:56:12.36\00:56:14.73
conversation.
00:56:14.73\00:56:16.00
Jesus says, "Most assuredly I
say to you, whoever commits sin
00:56:16.00\00:56:20.66
is the slave of sin and
the slave does not abide in the
00:56:20.66\00:56:24.46
house forever but
the son abides forever."
00:56:24.46\00:56:26.50
Verse 36, one of the most famous
verses in all of scripture,
00:56:26.50\00:56:28.93
"Therefore, if the son makes you
free, you shall be free indeed."
00:56:28.93\00:56:33.66
And you have heard it said
before and I want to say it
00:56:33.66\00:56:36.06
here, you can be free and be
enslaved to a wrong picture of
00:56:36.06\00:56:40.76
God and a wrong picture of
reality and you can be in a
00:56:40.76\00:56:44.60
prison cell and be free because
you understand what the universe
00:56:44.60\00:56:49.30
is really all
about and who God is.
00:56:49.30\00:56:51.73
-- It's as if we as human
beings are pacing the open cage.
00:56:51.73\00:56:57.33
What I mean by that
00:56:57.33\00:56:58.80
-- pacing?
00:56:58.80\00:56:59.53
--Pacing, pacing.
00:56:59.53\00:57:00.70
Walking back and forth?
00:57:00.70\00:57:01.93
-- When I say we are pacing
the open cage I mean the door is
00:57:01.93\00:57:06.60
open, the prison door is open.
00:57:06.60\00:57:08.80
There is a sense that Jesus
Christ has already liberated us
00:57:08.80\00:57:13.33
in his achievements.
00:57:13.33\00:57:15.00
God is already in a position
of everlasting love toward us.
00:57:15.00\00:57:18.93
The cage is open but we like our
bondage because it feels safe it
00:57:18.93\00:57:24.16
maintains our self.
00:57:24.16\00:57:25.30
We are pacing the open
cage, so to speak, when Jesus is
00:57:25.30\00:57:29.13
basically saying, "I have
already opened the door to you."
00:57:29.13\00:57:32.00
It's kind of like the
Emancipation Proclamation".
00:57:32.00\00:57:35.50
When Abraham Lincoln signed
the Emancipation Proclamation,
00:57:35.50\00:57:40.16
Right?
00:57:40.16\00:57:41.06
--revolutionary
00:57:41.06\00:57:42.33
-- all the slaves were free, the
question was, were they going to
00:57:42.33\00:57:46.43
stand fast in, were they going
to walk in the liberty they had
00:57:46.43\00:57:49.66
been given?
00:57:49.66\00:57:50.60
Some of them did
and some of them didn't.
00:57:50.60\00:57:53.06
-- The act had been done.
00:57:53.06\00:57:53.96
It had been accomplished, but...
00:57:53.96\00:57:55.23
-- It reminds me of a saying,
that language "pacing the open
00:57:55.23\00:57:58.83
cage", reminds me of a statement
made by a well-known German
00:57:58.83\00:58:03.90
theologian who died in
the Second World War, Dietrich
00:58:03.90\00:58:07.56
Bonhoeffer.
00:58:07.56\00:58:08.83
He speaks in one of his poems
called "Who Am I" about fleeing
00:58:08.83\00:58:12.60
from a victory already won.
00:58:12.60\00:58:14.23
--Isn't that something?
00:58:14.23\00:58:15.43
--Running away from the
battlefield but the victory, you
00:58:15.43\00:58:18.63
won the victory.
00:58:18.63\00:58:19.90
Not you, but it has been won on
your behalf and you are racing
00:58:19.90\00:58:22.30
as fast as you can.
00:58:22.30\00:58:23.36
-- The open cage.
00:58:23.36\00:58:24.06
Afraid of freedom.
00:58:24.06\00:58:25.06
We are afraid of freedom.
00:58:25.06\00:58:27.60
Which is bizarre.
00:58:27.60\00:58:29.03
-- It might feel a little
corny but I loved James' opening
00:58:29.03\00:58:32.96
illustration with the magnets,
the pushing because the virgins
00:58:32.96\00:58:36.43
in volcanoes view of God creates
insecurity, bondage and it
00:58:36.43\00:58:39.20
ultimately repels us
emotionally, psychologically
00:58:39.20\00:58:42.46
from God.
00:58:42.46\00:58:43.70
But if God is like Jesus said
and showed, what did he say?
00:58:43.70\00:58:49.33
"When I am lifted up.
00:58:49.33\00:58:50.60
When you see what God is like,
you will be magnetically drawn
00:58:50.60\00:58:54.76
to that."
00:58:54.76\00:58:55.46
Because it resonates with us.
00:58:55.46\00:58:56.86
-- What we are basically saying
is that there are really only
00:58:56.86\00:59:00.43
two religions or
ideologies in the world.
00:59:00.43\00:59:04.26
-- Ways of relating to God.
00:59:04.26\00:59:05.56
-- Either we relate to God
on the premise of His goodness
00:59:05.56\00:59:09.76
toward us and respond
to that goodness or we
00:59:09.76\00:59:13.23
relate to God on the premise
of our own goodness in trying to
00:59:13.23\00:59:17.10
purchase His favor.
00:59:17.10\00:59:18.60
That's the bottom line.
00:59:18.60\00:59:19.70
-- There's two religions.
00:59:19.70\00:59:20.26
--Yeah
00:59:20.26\00:59:21.20
[Music]
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