Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000006
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00:01 (music)
00:13 (music) 00:16 (music) 00:22 Jeffrey: So far in this series of conversations, we've been 00:26 nailing down some pretty big themes. We've been talking about 00:29 the fundamental issues when we talk about God, when we talk 00:31 about the Bible and when we talk about humanity. And, we've been harping a lot about 00:34 this idea that God is love. That God is love, God is love, but at 00:38 some point we have to come back to reality, to earth, to Planet 00:46 Earth, to realize that. Even though God is love and even though the Bible paints 00:49 this amazing picture of the character of God, 00:55 the world is messed up. We live in a messy world and it doesn't 00:59 seem like things are like God intended them to be. 01:04 And, I guess before we enter into this discussion on the 01:08 warfare that we are involved in, the spiritual warfare, I want to 01:12 open up by sharing an experience that I think sets the stage and 01:16 presents a dilemma. I was invited to go to the hospital 01:20 with a young lady whose father was sitting in a 01:24 coma with tubes sticking out of him. She came home one day and 01:28 she found him under the car, in the driveway 01:32 with the car on top of his neck. He was fixing the car 01:36 and it fell on top of him. 01:40 And by the time she got to the scene, 01:44 it was bad news. She called the cops, and 01:48 now dad is sitting in this hospital bed with tubes sticking 01:52 out of him. And, I remember I had been giving Bible studies to 01:56 her and she invited me to the bedside and she... 02:00 as soon as I walked into that room, I just thought, Ohhh, what 02:04 in world am I going to say? And she looked at her father, and she looked at me and 02:06 she started to cry. She said, Jeffrey, what 02:12 in the world, what in the world? 02:16 And I remember thinking, I could come up with all kinds of fancy 02:18 arguments, I can pull out all the philosophy, and all the, you know, the impressive 02:25 stuff, but at the end of the day what is that going to do for 02:29 people who are aching in this world and who hear that God 02:33 is amazing, God is amazing, He loves us, He loves us? And, yet 02:37 for the very people we love, and just all around us, there is 02:41 pain, there's suffering. And, I remember thinking, What am I 02:43 going to say?" And the thing that came to my mind, I said to her, Listen, I have 02:46 no idea why God allowed this to happen. I have no idea. 02:53 I can't even pretend to come up with some explanation. But 02:57 at the end of the day, even if I could explain this to you, even 03:01 if I could say, Here are the three reasons why that happened on that day and why 03:03 that car slipped, even if I could explain all that, would that automatically, 03:06 magically remove the pain from your heart? I said, It wouldn't. 03:10 At the end of the day, you don't need an explanation as to why 03:14 all the detailed things in this world happen the way they happen. At the end of the day, 03:17 you need to know, can I trust God? Ty: Yes. Jeffrey: That's 03:21 the bottom line, and I think that's the question. We're in a war, this world is a war. 03:25 C.S. Lewis says, "We are in the corner of the Universe that is 03:29 enemy occupied territory." And so, how do we harmonize, how do 03:33 we make sense out of that? David: In the last conversation that we had, we were 03:35 discussing, you used the language, enemy occupied 03:41 territory, and we started to talk about this angelic realm and the fact that there are 03:48 other beings, spiritual beings, organized beings, 03:54 who were created good and perfect and loyal, but one of 03:58 whom, who then led others, went into a rebellious 04:02 state, so I think the language is exactly correct there, it is 04:06 enemy occupied territory. I think Lewis is right on to it. 04:10 It's interesting, just this morning I was reading in my Twitter account that 04:14 someone said that if you go to the hospital or you go to the 04:17 orphanage or go to some place where a tragedy has happened just like you described, 04:22 and it was just helpful to me as a pastor, it said you don't have 04:27 to have an explanation of reason or any clever, logical, philosophical thing 04:28 to say, your job is to show up, and shut up. Just be there. 04:33 Because you're right, what do you say? James: that reminds me 04:38 of the story of Job, and Job chapters 1 and 2, a man is devastated, a human being 04:47 is devastated, he loses everything that means anything to him in his life. 04:51 All of his children, all of his wealth, his reputation, his 04:55 health, everything is gone. And the first thing that happened 04:59 after that is his friends show up, three of them, and for two 05:03 weeks they just sit with him in silence. And that is the most 05:07 comfort that Job receives, because after that they start talking and things go 05:09 downhill. David: (laughter) Ty: He calls them my miserable 05:16 comforters. James: Yes, but for those first two weeks, that's 05:18 the most comfort he receives in that whole experience. Ty: I 05:24 wonder if we could kind of inch in this direction, 05:28 really, that is the fact of the matter, because human beings 05:32 are intellectual and rational creatures as we 05:36 talked about before, but also emotional creatures, relational 05:38 creatures. And so, in the moment of pain, 05:44 right when you're in the throes of the agony, 05:48 that's not when somebody needs to sit down and 05:52 to give you point 1, point 2, point 3 theological 05:56 answers, but here is the truth of the matter, everybody does 06:00 have theology, to one degree or another. Everybody is 06:04 coming to their episode of suffering with 06:08 a rational content, whatever that rational content happens to 06:12 be. And so, when your friend came to 06:16 experience that suffering with her father, I think of myself 06:20 when I came to suffering that I experienced early on in my life. 06:24 I had a certain data, 06:31 and that data was the lens through which I interpreted it. 06:33 So my pain, and how I processed it, was effected by what I believed to be true 06:39 about reality and ultimately about God. So while 06:43 in the midst of pain, sitting by the hospital bed, 06:47 that's not really the time to just bust out a Bible study 06:51 point 1, 2, 3, but wow, there needs to be 06:55 some serious and clear teaching 06:59 and education prior to our 07:03 encounters with suffering so that when it happens, we can 07:07 process what's taking place from the high vantage ground 07:12 of an accurate picture of the character of God. Do you 07:14 understand what I'm saying? Is it making sense? David: Listen, 07:17 I understand exactly what you're saying. This is what Paul said 07:18 to the church of Thessalonica when he was writing to them about their loved ones that 07:21 were dying, were in pain and were suffering. James: Yes. 07:26 David: And he basically has this great line where he says, that we suffer. He says, 07:31 I do not want you to be ignorant, I'm in 1 Thessalonians 07:33 4:13, "I do not want you to ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen 07:36 asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope." So 07:39 what Paul says here, and this was your point, even if you had an explanation, the suffering 07:42 is still there so whether you are a believer or not a believer, or whatever, 07:44 the perception is of the data through which you process pain, 07:52 there's always suffering, there's always sorrow associated 08:02 with death. there's always suffering, there's always sorrow associated with death. 08:09 To suddenly not feel no pain, but to process that pain, that 08:12 suffering, that injustice in the appropriate way. Ty: I remember a World War Il quote, 08:16 and I don't know if it was Ellie Wiesel or who said it, 08:20 but in my memory it is him, he was in a death camp 08:25 and afterwards as a survivor he wrote a single line 08:29 that basically epitomized what people were going through there 08:33 on a theological level, and the statement is 08:37 this, and it's just very simple but wow, it gets to the bottom 08:41 line of this question we are talking about. He said, "Whatever you believe about God, 08:45 you need to be able to explain while standing 08:49 around a pit of burning children." 08:53 So, if you can just picture it, and it's a horrible, horrible 08:57 picture, but if you can just picture everybody encountering 09:01 that suffering. David: That scene Ty: Everybody is processing it in some way, 09:05 they are making sense or no sense out of it 09:09 according to whatever the theological lens is that they 09:13 brought to the pit. Some people in those concentration camps, 09:15 they said, Well,I'm an atheist then. I don't believe in God if this is the kind of 09:20 thing that God is up to. So, I'm an unbeliever now. I came here 09:24 as a believer, I'm not a believer anymore. Other people processed what they saw 09:32 in the World War II death camps and came out 09:37 not unbelievers, but believers. And, something made the 09:41 difference. And, I think that at the very least it was 09:45 some kind of rational foundation with which they approached 09:49 this situation. Right? 09:53 So let me go one step further with this point, and that is 09:57 this, I think that this question about theodicy, theo is God, 10:01 dike is justice, theodicy is that branch of theology, that's 10:05 the high word for it, that means, basically 10:09 the justice aspect, the goodness aspect of the character of God 10:13 in the light of suffering. How do we make sense of God's 10:15 character in the light of suffering? David: As someone 10:18 once said, justifying the ways of God to men. Ty: Yes. David: Trying to make sense 10:22 out of, 'how can God be that and the world be that?' Ty: Yes, so 10:25 that's theodicy. Whether you use the word or not, here's my 10:29 point. I think theodicy is the most naturally occurring aspect 10:37 of theology. In other words, somebody doesn't come into the 10:42 world, growing up in no religious home, for example, like me. I never wondered about 10:49 certain questions like, for example, Creation, or what the 10:55 gospel taught, or what is the nature of Christ? David: The sanctuary. Ty: The sanctuary. 10:59 No, but I encountered suffering and I instinctively asked 11:05 Why? Why in the world? Jeffrey: The question "why" is a 11:09 summation of theodicy. Ty: It's universal. Everybody encounters 11:11 suffering and when they do, they ask why. James: And that's 11:14 theodicy. David: There's something I just have to throw in there, Ty, you said 11:18 that basically you could have people come up to this pit of 11:26 terrible suffering and some people are going to leave and 11:30 say, the Universe clearly has no meaning, it's nonsensical, it's a terrible, harmful 11:32 place and things happen so I'm not a believer. And, others left 11:38 believers but some of those believers, sadly, would have left thinking something 11:42 like, this fits into God's plan. God wanted, 11:46 or at some level, superintended this, so you have first the 11:50 split between unbelievers and believers, but even among 11:54 believers, even among the categories of believers, we have 11:57 to ask the question, is suffering somehow God's plan and intention, and He's 12:00 actually superintending it in a positive sense, or is it 12:04 something that God hates, and loathes more than we are ourselves do but it's a product 12:08 of the way He is governing the Universe? Ty: Yes, we would have 12:12 to back up to, basically, the foundation of reality. David: Which is love Ty: Yes, and 12:16 just ask ourselves the question, ok, there is suffering, there is 12:20 evil in the world, is there a different kind of world God 12:24 could have made to absolutely, I'm using that word in the very technical, extreme sense, 12:32 rule out the possibly of suffering? Was that kind of 12:36 world possible? Could God have made a world in which suffering could not have occurred? 12:40 James: He could have, if He wanted to make a world where we 12:44 were this: David talked about this yesterday, where we were 12:48 just controlled puppets, and just automatons and we were just 12:52 told what to do and what not to do and so whenever temptation 12:57 or choice came along, we just did whatever God told us to 13:01 do. There was no freedom, in other words. But love entails 13:05 freedom. Ty: Yes, that's right. David: In fact it even requires 13:09 it. Love requires freedom. James: Right. 13:13 David: Because if love is the choice of loyalty and we've been 13:17 talking about to appreciate God for who He is. We talked about leading from positon 13:19 vs. leading from influence. Satan wanted to be like God in 13:22 terms of his position but not like God in terms of His character. So, true love 13:29 requires me to appreciate you for who you are, 13:33 not just for the power or authority you have over me, but if it's true freedom, 13:37 then I can exercise the right to not appreciate that which I 13:41 ought to or should. Freedom is essential to the equation. 13:46 Ty: So, for God, what would be the definition of a perfect 13:50 world? He's venturing into creation, I'm going to make 13:54 mankind in My image. What's it going to be? Jeffrey: A perfect 13:56 world. Ty: What's perfection? Jeffrey: It is a world in which love is possible to 13:59 experience. David: There you go. Jeffrey: A world in which love 14:02 is possible to experience, it is a world in which freedom of 14:06 individual choices is a necessity. Because without the ability to choose to 14:14 accept or reject love, love is not possible. David: Could you 14:16 just say your first line again, Jeffrey? A perfect world is a 14:19 world in which love is possible. Jeffrey: And a world in which love is possible is a world that 14:26 necessitates the presence of freedom. Ty: So you're defining 14:33 love as being intrinsically connected with freedom. In other 14:37 words, that means it could go one of two ways. Jeffrey: Yes, 14:39 and somebody might say God is almighty, God is 14:46 omniscient, God knows everything so 14:50 nothing is impossible for God. So, if that's true then why 14:54 couldn't God create a world in which everybody had freedom 14:58 but nobody chose the wrong thing? 15:02 David: Yes, I got it. Jeffrey: And, the point there is that it 15:04 doesn't make sense because freedom, in order for it to be true freedom, always allows 15:08 the possibly. Ty: C.S. Lewis said nonsense is still nonsense, 15:13 even when we speak of God. The idea being to say, why couldn't, 15:17 if God is omniscient, why couldn't He create a world in which people are free 15:21 to love but they never have the possibility of choosing not to 15:29 love. David: It's incoherent. Ty: Yes, it's incoherent because 15:31 you just said love and freedom but then you said not free. So, 15:34 you can only have one or the other you can't have both, can you? Jeffrey: And it's like, 15:41 can God make a stone that is too big for Him to carry? Ty: Square 15:45 circle. Jeffrey: Yes, can God make a square circle? Logically it doesn't make sense. 15:49 David: We spent time, we went through a great discussion 15:53 and conversation about Adam in the Garden of Eden and we talked 15:55 about how they began to experience shame and guilt and 15:59 fear and blaming and all of that. You might recall that right at the end of the 16:02 conversation, I said, but our whole conversation here assumes 16:06 and rests upon the basic premise that Adam was free to be loyal or not to be loyal. 16:14 He was free to love or not to love, to give allegiance or to 16:16 withhold it. And that's what we're talking about here. Not just in Adam's case 16:19 but in my case. Am I really free to wear the shirt that I'm 16:22 wearing? Jeffrey: You know, I don't know how much time we have 16:26 left but I was driving in my car in San Jose and I was listening 16:34 to the radio a couple of years back and it was a report from 16:40 North Korea about the elections at the time, and Kim Jong-il, 16:44 the report said that it was 98.99% 16:48 turnout, and then it said 16:52 all votes were for the sole candidate. 16:56 David: Kim Jong-il won in a landslide! Jeffrey: And I was 17:00 thinking, the sole candidate? That's not like God. 17:04 I think this one of the most 17:06 compelling things about God is that He made sure that there 17:09 were other candidates that you can vote for. And I always tell 17:13 the ladies, I always say, imagine being on an island, a little island in Fiji 17:17 somewhere and it's you and some dude, right? 17:25 And, there's nobody else. David: By the way, there are 17:29 many people on Fiji. Jeffrey: No, an island off 17:33 of Fiji, and the guy comes up to you, there's no other women 17:35 on the island, he's never even seen another woman. Ty: Another? 17:38 Jeffrey: Another lady, no. And, he drops to his knees and he 17:41 says, I just want to tell you that I want you more than any 17:45 other women in this world. David: (laughter) Jeffrey: So the whole point is... 17:49 Yeah, you're the prettiest girl I've ever seen, and so would the 17:51 girl feel special? Of course not, there are no other woman. 17:56 It's either me or the coconuts. You know? So in that situation, 18:01 he's not really choosing her. Ty: That's right. I think the most famous quotation 18:09 by il is that, of course everyone in North Korea 18:14 is free, they're just not allowed to leave. All: 18:18 (laughter) That's the idea, there 18:22 really is no freedom when there is absolute 18:26 restriction, and so love requires freedom 18:30 but freedom is risky. We need to take a break right now 18:34 and just share with those who are sitting in on the 18:36 conversation with us what we do as a ministry. We're just 18:42 eager to have people partner with us in what we do, so let's 18:44 just take a break. David: Excellent 18:50 God has blessed us 18:54 with the equipment that we need, the facility that we need. 18:56 Presently with the financial resources that come into this 18:59 ministry we're able to print 20 to 30 million pieces of 19:07 literature every year. If we were to maximize this equipment 19:11 we could easily print 40, 50, 60 million pieces 19:15 of literature every calendar year, and put it into the field. 19:19 (music) 19:23 We need people who want to partner with us to really 19:25 stretch their evangelistic dollar. When we ask people 19:31 to sponsor the work that we're doing, we feel that this 19:33 is one of the best ways to utilize the resources that God 19:36 has given to each one of us. 19:40 We would like people to know what they are contributing is 19:44 not in vain, it makes a huge difference. 19:51 With what we're doing, every dollar puts multiple 19:56 messages out in the field, and when it arrives on their end, 20:00 it's free of charge. The word of God is free, and if it is shared 20:04 it is full of charge, and it is that many people have access to 20:08 it. $100 a month, $50 a month, $10 a month, makes a difference. 20:12 We need to do everything to preach this gospel. People are 20:16 suffering, they don't have peace. 20:24 (music) 20:28 You can take a four color tract that is filled 20:32 with the gospel of Jesus Christ, you can print it, fold it, pack 20:34 it, ship it overseas and by the time it gets to a third world 20:37 country and touches the heart of an individual the cost of that 20:41 tract is about four cents, or less. Give to God's work. Become 20:45 partners with God. Become partners with the work that 20:49 Light Bearers is doing, and you will receive a great blessing 20:53 than the one that you give. 21:01 We're looking for partners and friends who will join with us 21:05 to put this literature out to the masses. 21:09 To partner with Light Bearers in spreading the gospel, 21:11 visit us online at www.lightbearers.org or call us 21:13 toll free at 877-585-1111 You can also write to us 21:21 at Light Bearers 37457 Jasper Lowell Rd., Jasper, Oregon 97438 21:29 (music) 21:33 Jeffrey: So Ty just 21:37 ended the previous conversation on the idea 21:41 of risk. God is love, God requires 21:45 freedom but anytime you have real freedom, not 21:50 the fake, but real freedom, it's always risky because 21:52 the risk is that they might exercise their freedom the wrong 21:55 way, and in 'Mere Christianity' p. 52, C.S. Lewis wrote this 22:02 really interesting statement here, it says, "Some people 22:07 think that they can imagine a creature which was free, but 22:11 had no possibility of going wrong, I cannot. 22:15 The happiness which God designs 22:19 for His creatures is the happiness of being 22:23 freely voluntarily united to Him and to each other. 22:27 Of course God knew what would happen if they 22:31 used their freedom the wrong way. Apparently, 22:35 He thought it worth the risk." I love this, and it gets 22:39 better here. "Perhaps we feel inclined to disagree with 22:43 Him. But there is a difficulty in disagreeing with God, He 22:47 is the source from which all your reasoning power comes. 22:51 You could not be right and He wrong anymore than a stream 22:55 can rise higher than it's own source. When you are arguing 22:59 against Him, you are arguing against the very power that 23:01 makes you able to argue at all. It's like cutting off the very 23:05 branch you are sitting on. If God thinks," and this is the key 23:08 here, guys, "if God thinks this state of war in the Universe 23:16 a price worth paying for free will, that is 23:20 making a live world in which creatures can do 23:24 real good or harm," which is the type of world we live in, 23:26 "and something of real importance can happen, instead 23:32 of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings, 23:36 then we may take it is worth paying." 23:40 Jeffrey: That's powerful. David: There's so many things in there. 23:44 Ty: From a biblical perspective, and we haven't yet really 23:48 brought any Scripture to the table, so I just want to read 23:56 this verse and preface it by saying, right here we are 23:59 listening to the voice of omnipotent God speaking, Ok? 24:02 Jeffrey: Where are you? Ty: Well, you'll guess when I'm at. 24:03 Omnipotent God is speaking here. "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 24:06 the one who stones the prophets and kills those who were sent to 24:11 her. How often I wanted to gather your children together as 24:16 a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not 24:18 willing." You were not willing. So, do you see what's happening? 24:24 There are two wills in this text, this is Matthew 23, verses 24:28 37-38. Here is Jesus, God incarnate, and He's articulating 24:37 how omnipotence operates. 24:41 The premise on which God weids power, I guess we could say. 24:45 And God is saying to human beings, Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, 24:49 I wanted but you would not. So, what's 24:54 happening there? Is God impotent because He wants 24:56 something to happen but it's not happening? Or rather, does God 25:04 choose in His own sovereign freedom to exercise His 25:06 omnipotence by creating a world in which there is real freedom. 25:09 In other words, God can do anything He wants if He is 25:13 omnipotent? And, what does He want? He wants a free world. 25:16 James: Yes. David: I think the verse you read there is exactly 25:20 the point. That there is a war of wills that is going on. You 25:24 recall the statement, in Isaiah 14 that we talked about, 25:26 Lucifer, the fall of Lucifer. I will, I will, I will exalt, I will ascend, I will be 25:31 above. It's a war of wills. It's my will vs. your will. What God 25:33 did is He created beings, and this is another Lewis quote, 25:39 and this is one of my favorites, he says, the greatest, 25:41 miraculous act that God basically has done is that He created a situation 25:47 in which He could be resisted by His own handiwork. So, if I, 25:49 let's just say for the purpose of illustration that I created 25:51 you, Ty, if I was omnipotent God and I and I create you as an 25:53 automaton like this, well then I can manipulate you however 25:55 I want, but if I create you not like this, but like that,like 26:02 the real Ty, who can wear the green sweater and who can open 26:05 the Bible to that passage or marry Sue or whatever you choose 26:08 to do, and if I have genuinely 26:11 created you that way, then your will can be at cross purposes 26:18 with my will, and I will respect that, as much as it pains me. 26:21 James: There's something here that comes to mind, too, in 26:24 Matthew chapter 6. Now, just building on this theme, on this 26:29 idea, Matthew chapter 6 is where the disciples come to 26:32 Jesus and they say, teach us how to pray. 26:33 And Jesus gives them this overarching, 26:37 basic outline of prayer. There are two key verses 26:43 that I think play into this really powerfully 26:46 because they help us to understand this 26:49 conflict, there is a distinction and a difference taking place 26:56 between the two. In Matthew chapter 6, Jesus says in verse 27:02 10, that we should pray to God, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be 27:06 done in earth, as it is in heaven." So right there in that verse, you get the distinct, 27:09 clear impression that what's being done this earth is not 27:13 always in harmony with God's will, with what's being done in 27:18 heaven. And then He goes on to say in verse 13, He says you 27:22 should also pray, "Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." And then 27:29 He goes on to say, "for Thine is the kingdom, the power 27:31 and glory." So, deliver us from evil, so in other words we are 27:34 to pray to be delievered from evil, that is the evil that is taking place in this world. 27:38 See, some people conclude that, Well, God is in control of 27:41 everything that takes place on Planet Earth. But that doesn't 27:44 make sense because then we would be praying to be delivered 27:47 from God, from Himself, and that is just a contradiction. Ty: 27:51 Some people have that theology, though. Recently some tragic 27:54 events have taken place in our world that are just plastered in 28:00 the news, and religious figures, Christian leaders, some of them 28:04 have stepped forward to make comments on these 28:07 tragic events and the basic jest of the comments are, it's God's 28:12 sovereign will that these things happen because God is seen 28:18 primarily in terms of power being the fundamental aspect of 28:25 His being and exercise of His being rather than what we're 28:28 talking about and that is that love is primary with God, and 28:32 not power. George MacDonald said something very interesting. He 28:39 said, is love or power the making might of the Universe? 28:44 He who has the answer to this question has the answer 28:47 to all worthy questions. The point is, 28:51 MacDonald is saying, listen is the fundamental governance 28:54 that God is exercising, one of power or one of love that 28:59 holds power and restraint. If you answer that one question, 29:02 all theology falls into place around it. David: I so deeply resonate with that. 29:09 I just cringe in my heart of hearts when I hear some of the 29:12 things that Christian leaders say about that tornado or that 29:18 hurricane or that earthquake, I just think, Lord, please hide 29:22 the ears of sensitive people from this foolishness. And I 29:25 don't mean to be too strong there, but it is crazy to 29:29 suggest that God somehow intends and superintends the rape of that girl, the murder 29:34 of that man, the genocide of that culture. It's the point 29:38 that you're making. If God is doing all of this, if He is somehow superintending it 29:42 and even at some level because it brings Him glory, wanting it, 29:46 then what are we praying for when we pray for deliverance 29:48 from the thing. Jeffrey: We haven't arrived there yet but 29:52 isn't the Cross of Calvary the greatest example that there are 29:58 two wills and that God's will doesn't always go through, 30:02 right? Because Jesus had to come to this world in response to the 30:06 fact that God's will was violated. Ty: Yes, that's right. 30:11 We do need to qualify though that, and we'll get to this in later conversations, because 30:16 that is the trajectory, the fact is that God's will is not always 30:21 carried out in every situation, otherwise there would be no 30:25 freedom, but God's will ultimately will prevail in the great controversy between 30:30 good and evil and a Universe will finally exist in which God 30:34 has saved human beings while pulling off the amazing feat of 30:39 preserving free will. David: Preserving their free will. Ty: 30:44 And, we will never see sin and suffering again, not because 30:46 we cannot sin, but because we will not sin. David: See what 30:49 God is trying to do right now is win, not just the war, He's 30:54 trying to win the war in the right way which is by winning 30:57 not by the strength of His power, or the puissance of His 31:02 position but on the strength of His character. Listen to this 31:06 verse from Luke chapter 7 where John the Baptist had come out 31:11 and he was preaching this message of repentance, this 31:14 message of turning toward God, and many people went out 31:16 to hear the message of John the Baptist and they responded 31:17 positively but now listen to this , this is very interesting, 31:20 it says in verse 29 of Luke 7, "and when all the people heard 31:23 him, even the tax collectors praised God having been baptized 31:27 with the baptism of John," verse 30, "but the Pharisees and 31:30 lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been 31:33 baptized by him." So God had a will. God's will was that 31:37 everybody would respond to the preaching of John. That 31:39 was God's will, God's hope, God's plan But it says now that 31:43 there is other wills at the table, and they rejected God's 31:47 will for themselves. They must have genuinely had freedom and 31:51 God must have genuinely acquiesced His omnipotence at 31:56 some level to allow room at the table, oh, okay, to allow other 31:59 room at the table for other wills. Certainly God could pick 32:02 up any human being and manipulate them exactly as He 32:05 wanted them to do but then what does He have? He doesn't 32:08 have Ty. Ty: He has Himself. David: He has Himself 32:11 manipulating a puppet. Jeffrey: Can I ask a question here? We 32:13 keep saying this is the type of world God wanted, God wanted 32:18 creatures that were free, God wanted, but... Ty: Well, not 32:22 this world. He wanted a world in which there was freedom. 32:25 Jeffrey: The original world. Ty: Yes. 32:27 David: He didn't want this world but He wanted a free world. 32:30 Jeffrey: But even that, even that's what I'm talking about. Just think, Genesis, 32:33 pre-sin, perfect. That's what I'm talking about. Ty: Yes. 32:37 Jeffrey: A perfect world, we keep saying, God wanted, but is 32:39 there a sense in which God could not have created any other type 32:44 of world because it would have contrary to His very character. 32:49 Ty: I like that point, I was immediately going to answer no 32:52 and now I'm answering yes. Jeffrey: And let me just preface 32:56 it with this, the question, the trick question, is there anything God cannot do? 32:59 Ty: Of course. I can think of three right off the top of my 33:04 head. Jeffrey: Ok, but typically the people think there's nothing 33:07 God can't do. David: No, no, God can do anything. Jeffrey: Well, 33:10 Titus 1:2 says that God cannot lie. God cannot lie. So, there 33:14 are things that God can't do. Not because God doesn't have 33:17 the biceps to do them, but because those things would be 33:21 contrary to His very character. David: There you go. 33:24 Ty: Yes, those things would be contrary to His very character. 33:26 David: There you go. Ty: Yes. Jeffrey: So God cannot do them, 33:28 not because He lacks ability but because He would need to 33:30 cease to exist in order for that to happen. Ty: That's who He is. 33:33 Jeffrey: So the point is, God creates this world in which 33:36 freewill is possible not because, Oh, it's just His cup 33:41 of tea, He prefers it. David: Let's try it this way... Ty: I have three options, 33:44 I'll do it this way. Jeffrey: Yes, He likes this better than 33:46 that, No, no, it's, He can't create a world in which creatures are not free. 33:50 David: Well, what you mean by that is He could, He physically 33:53 could but it wouldn't be in keeping with the kind of God 33:55 that He is. Jeffrey: Right, it would be impossible for Him to 33:59 be who He claims to be and do this. Ty: Just like a man could 34:03 create a mechanical device like an IPad and marry the thing, 34:08 or he could pursue a woman who could say no, right? Jeffrey: 34:13 Right. Ty: He chooses the woman because there is great potential 34:16 for a relationship to occur and it's infinitely superior to 34:21 merely having a relationship with a mechanical device that he puts the information 34:25 into and then it spits it out back to you. James: Go one step 34:28 further, he can't have a relationship with a mechanical 34:30 device. It's impossible. Jeffrey: That's right. That's 34:34 what I'm trying to say. Ty: And that's what I love about your point, and you said, 34:36 is there anything God can't do and you pointed to the one, 34:39 God cannot lie, but I think I mentioned this...and I don't 34:43 know where it is. David: God cannot deny Himself, 2 Timothy 34:46 2:13. Ty: That is a cannot, not a will not statement. Where is 34:50 it? David: I think it's 2 Timothy 2:13. Ty: So when 34:53 Scripture says God cannot deny Himself, it's saying that God cannot do contrary to 34:55 His nature, to His character. God is a certain particular kind 35:02 of being. David: He is a relational being. Ty: And He's 35:06 going to act in a certain way. David: It is 2 Timothy 2:13. I 35:09 love that text. He cannot deny Himself. That's your point. That is your point, yes? 35:12 God is a relational being, He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, God 35:16 is love so He is not going to be satisfied with a relationship 35:19 with an IPad or puppet or a marionette. God wants real 35:22 relationships with real people and what our point here is, and 35:26 what Scripture says to us, is that involves real risk. 35:29 Jeffrey: Couldn't have God made a different world? Somebody said 35:35 that we are inclined to agree with the risk God took. Anybody 35:39 who brings children into the world is taking a risk. David: 35:43 Yes, of course. Jeffrey: But the love, the potential for love, and relationship is worth 35:46 the risk. David: Not just having kids, getting married is a risk. 35:50 When you marry your spouse, really, if you add up the sum 35:53 total about everything that is true about your husband or your 35:56 wife, what percentage do you know about them? I mean even 36:00 those who have gone through long courtships, if you add up the 36:03 sum total, you probably know what, four, five, ten percent at 36:06 the top? Ty: Not only do you not know the vast majority of the 36:10 things that are true of them, they're in a developmental 36:14 process themselves so they're going to become, they're 36:17 gradually becoming, something that they weren't when you 36:21 actually married. Jeffrey: And you can't predict that. James: 36:24 And you're going to influence that. Ty: That's right, you're 36:28 going to actually contribute. Jeffrey: And you're going to become something different just 36:32 by virtue of the relationship. You can't predict who you're 36:37 going to become either. Ty: I think your point is that intuitively we all know the risk 36:43 is worth it. Jeffrey: Yes, we agree with the risk. We may say 36:47 how dare you? Ty: Yes, in the midst 36:49 of suffering, that's when we become, that's when we question 36:53 it and wonder... James: It's difficult. Ty: But when we're 36:56 thinking clearly and rationally living our life out, we know that the risk is worth 37:00 the potential for love. Jeffrey: And nobody asks the question 37:04 when everything is nice and dandy. David: There you go. 37:07 Jeffrey: In the midst of the joy and the pleasure, no one is 37:12 questioning, why did God make this world? David: Why 37:13 did God make such a beautiful world? Jeffrey: Why did God 37:14 make this pleasure possible, how dare Him? No one is saying 37:17 that, we only say that when it gets sour. James: So, getting 37:21 back now to this conflict that has created this diversion of 37:25 wills, I'm thinking about 2 Peter 3:9 where it says that God 37:28 is not willing that any would perish but that all would come 37:32 to repentance. So there is a conflict between wills. There is a will that God has 37:36 for the world in creating the world, and that will has given 37:41 us freedom. It's God's will that we would be free. Love demands 37:49 that we would be free. His character demands that we would 37:51 be free. But that has led to a conflict because that freedom 37:54 has given us choice and left God with a risk and we've bitten 37:57 into that. We have allowed our choice to go into a different 38:01 direction than God's will. And I like this verse because this 38:03 verse is directing us to God's ultimate will for every human being. When you look at it 38:07 and you stand around that pit in World War II, when you look 38:09 at the sin and pain and suffering in this world, when 38:13 you even look at some of things that seem to be taking place in 38:17 the Bible, in the Old Testament for example, if you put this 38:21 verse in front of every action in front of every devastation... 38:25 David: tragedy. James: Yes, of evil and experience of evil in the world you realize 38:30 that God's will is diametrically opposed to sin and suffering 38:34 and pain and evil. Ty: Yes. One of my favorite verses in the 38:38 Bible, and I come back to it over and over again is Isaiah 38:42 11:9 where God is basically expressing His inmost heart 38:50 and He says basically, this is what I envisioned 38:54 ultimately for the world, they shall not hurt 38:58 nor destroy in all My holy mountains, says 39:02 the Lord, the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the 39:06 Lord. That's the concept that ultimately God is 39:10 diametrically opposed to all suffering, destruction 39:14 and pain and ultimately that's the kind of Universe He is 39:18 aiming for and the kind of Universe that He will ultimately 39:23 have. We're going to take a break, we have to take a break. 39:24 David: I have something when we come back right on that point. 39:25 Ty: It's on you, David. So, we'll come right back and we 39:28 have something special to offer right now that I think people 39:30 are going to enjoy. David: Excellent. 39:35 (music) 39:39 The Light Bearers story is a 39:43 short, award winning video that gives an inside look at one of 39:46 the boldest and most effective missionary adventures of our 39:49 time. You will see how multiple millions of gospel publications 39:53 are flooding the nations free of charge by surprisingly simple 39:57 means. For your free copy of the Light Bearers story, call 40:01 877-585-1111 Or write to Light Bearers 37457 Jasper Lowell Rd., 40:09 Jasper, OR 97438 Once again, 37457 Jasper Lowell Rd., Jasper, 40:13 Oregon 97438 For your free copy of the Light Bearers story, call 40:25 877-585-1111 Simply ask for the 40:29 Light Bearers story. 40:33 (music) 40:37 David: We finished the last part of the conversation we just 40:39 finished, Ty, with you saying from Isaiah 11 that God's will 40:42 is that they would not hurt or destroy in all My holy 40:46 mountains. And, here's a kind of powerful thing that is very much 40:47 in keeping with what we've been talking about and that is that 40:50 God is going to get His will ultimately. Because that is one 40:54 of the things that we've talked about.That is the whole sort of 40:58 directionality of Scripture. We've talked about how Scripture 41:02 opens in Eden, a perfect God in perfect communion with a perfect 41:04 people in a perfect environment in perfect connection and the 41:06 Bible closes, Revelation 21 and 22, the very same way, perfect 41:09 God, perfect communion, perfect people and a perfect 41:16 environment. And, everything in between is God seeking to align 41:21 our rebellious will with His perfect will. So I say it this way, this world that we 41:30 live in right now with rape and genocide and murder and gossip 41:34 and spousal abuse and drunk drivers and all of that, this 41:36 world right here with its hospitals and police cars is not 41:42 the most perfect world possible. We can all imagine a better 41:44 world, but this world that we live in right now is the way 41:51 to the most perfect world possible. God is giving us 41:55 opportunity to grow, to align our will either with His will or contrary to His will 41:59 and those...I love what you said in that first session there, 42:00 Ty,...at the end people will not sin, will not be in rebellion. 42:07 Not because they could not, but because they would not. 42:11 They have fallen so in love with Christ and they have 42:13 responded to the love that Christ has for them, that these 42:15 people are sold out to God and His plan. 42:19 Ty: So, could I complete your opening sentence by saying, 42:23 what did you say? God's will ultimately 42:27 will be fulfilled, or God is going to get 42:31 what He wants, and could I finish that by saying, God is 42:35 going to get what He wants and 42:39 we, at that point, will want what He wants. 42:44 David: That's right, of course. Ty: in other words, He's going 42:45 to maneuver the great controversy with love as the 42:48 primary active agent so that He wins, rather than forces, rather 42:56 than manipulates. He wins us back to Him. Jeffrey: He woos 42:57 us. Ty: He woos us and He wins us and He draws us back to Him 43:00 so that ultimately the Universe is free of sin and suffering 43:04 and we want it that way, too. James: Sure. Jeffrey: Because 43:07 that's the greatest guarantee, that's when it's actually safe. 43:12 Ty: Yes, when it's our will as well as God's will. Jeffrey: 43:14 When it's our will, that's when it's actually safe. David: I'll 43:16 just drop this scripture in the middle of this conversation, 43:17 Jeremiah 31:3, "The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: 43:21 yes, I have loved you with everlasting love; therefore with 43:25 lovingkindness I have," forced you? I have coerced you? No, "I 43:27 have drawn you." Ty: Drawn you. James: And one other scripture, 43:31 John 12:32, "And I," Jesus says, going to the cross, 43:37 "if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto Me." 43:41 David: Draw, to woo, to invite, to encourage. 43:45 Ty: Guys, this is very close to home for me, as you know, 43:49 because this very subject we're talking about 43:53 was the big intellectual hurdle that was 43:57 in my way as a teenager. 44:01 When I did come to the Lord finally, there was a 44:05 big wall in my way. And, that wall was that I had grown up 44:09 witnessing a lot of suffering so I had one 44:13 big question when I started hearing, there is a God, 44:15 and God loves people etc. To my mind, because I lacked 44:18 perspective, that sounded like nonsense. I thought, How could 44:22 God love anybody with all this stuff going on in the world? 44:26 And, there were two religious people that approached me, well, 44:30 there were more but these two in particular, and both were 44:34 pastors, interestingly, one of them approached me and tried to 44:38 quote, unquote witness to me as a teenage boy. And when I 44:42 told him I just can't believe in God because, you know, there is 44:46 just so much suffering in the world and there is so much evil, 44:50 that there couldn't possibly be a God and if He does exist, 44:52 he must just be a monster. I mean, there's just no way. And 44:57 his approach was, You're disrespectful young man, and the 45:02 Bible says God exists, therefore you need to believe it, quote, 45:06 quote, quote, just submit. And I just couldn't process it. Then I 45:15 met another guy, also a pastor, who came to me, and he quote, 45:19 unquote was witnessing to me at my mom's bidding and 45:23 I told him, Listen, 2+2=4, not 56 45:27 and this God is love idea doesn't match up with what I see 45:29 going on in the world, there just no way that it's true. I'm 45:35 not even God, and I don't claim to love everybody like you say 45:37 He does but I wouldn't let people starve to death if I 45:40 could feed them and I wouldn't let people beat up innocent 45:44 women, and...so... no, no, no. And rather than say, Well you 45:48 should believe it because the Bible says you should believe it, he knew that the 45:52 Bible meant nothing to me because I'd never even seen 45:56 the thing, he...his eyes teared up. And he said, You know, 46:04 you're right, and I don't know how or why or 46:08 whatever. But I just want to challenge you 46:12 to consider something. He told me to read something. I said, 46:16 Alright. So I read it and the idea was so simple and we've talked about it here. 46:20 It was a chapter in a book called 'Patriarchs and 46:24 Prophets.' The first chapter in that book is called, 'Why was 46:26 sin permitted?' It's answering the question that we're talking about. The first three 46:29 words of the chapter are, God is love and I just kind of rolled 46:30 my eyes. David: I just read that this morning, I just read the 46:33 first chapter of 'Patriarchs and Prophets,' just by chance. 46:37 Ty: And I didn't understand 80% of what was there. I was only 46:41 18 years old, I didn't know the language, but here's what 46:45 immerged from it, the basic idea, God is love, and then the 46:49 chapter went on to basically say, therefore there is freedom. 46:53 So that basic idea was the point of my conversion. That's when I said, Wait a minute, 46:57 I've been looking at this all wrong. I thought if God exists, 47:01 He would use His power to... James: to control. Ty: basically just control people 47:05 and make sure nobody does anything wrong because here's 47:09 all this bad stuff and He should just... I wanted a Rambo kind of 47:11 God, you know, just come down and lay waste, you know mow 47:14 people down with machine guns or the God-zap button or 47:18 something. But that chapter said, the kind of God that God 47:22 is, is a God who is love and love requires freedom and 47:26 freedom has a risk factor. And that's what we've developed so far, love, freedom, 47:30 risk, but there's more to it than that. David: The next step 47:38 in the equation is that risk, the moment that you have risk means that you have 47:42 a morally superior or a morally inferior choice. 47:46 So take the one in the Garden of Eden: here's Adam, he can 47:50 choose to be loyal to God and 47:54 not partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil or he 47:58 can choose to. So now Adam is faced with a legitimate, genuine, moral choice. 48:02 One is the superior moral choice, to align yourself 48:06 with God's will, the other is the inferior. So now Adam is 48:10 under a solemn responsibility. He's under responsibility. 48:14 When you hand your keys to your teenager for the first time 48:18 you are giving freedom, which involves risk, and they 48:23 now they have a responsibility to use the freedom that you have 48:25 entrusted them with in the right way. Ty: Responsibility. 48:27 David: Responsibility. So, we would say it like this, love 48:31 requires freedom, freedom involves risk, and risk entails 48:34 responsibility. Ty: Yes, and, it goes one step further, because 48:40 you said that there are moral choices, the superior moral 48:43 choices that could be made when you have freedom and the inferior or even just 48:46 blatantly wrong moral choices that could be made. But then 48:52 you realize that love, freedom, risk, responsibility, 48:57 is the only way to moral development. That's the only 49:02 way for a person to engage in a process of becoming 49:11 what God intends for people to become. You grow 49:15 because you exercise your freedom responsibly. 49:19 Jeffrey: You know, I was thinking of Genesis 3 and just 49:23 trying to eavesdrop, you know, just image yourself hiding 49:27 behind some tree watching Adam and Eve and as they are right on 49:31 the tree there and Eve is grabbing the fruit, and you just 49:35 yell, NOO! Put that down!! But God doesn't. 49:39 God's arm doesn't just appear from the bush and go... 49:43 "What do you think you're doing?" It's almost like God, 49:47 He's just 'dying' in the bushes, you know, 49:52 He's wanting to scream but He can't because the only way 49:56 as you said, the only way that this beautiful new race that God 50:00 is creating can develop into what they were created to be is 50:02 for God to allow them to make that decision. 50:08 It's a necessity. I love that. David: Jeffrey, in an earlier 50:12 conversation, you took us to Isaiah 43:7, 50:16 "Whom I have created for My glory." The only way for us to 50:18 become like God in His character, in His goodness, in 50:21 His love is for us to freely do so. Ty: Yes. David: For us to 50:28 freely do so. David: So I love what you are saying here, love 50:32 gives way to freedom, freedom to risk, risk to responsibility, 50:34 and responsibility to growth. Going back to the illustration 50:37 of the teenager, if that teenager makes good choices and 50:41 responsible choices with the car, then he or she has become a 50:45 better person, has become more moral by aligning his or her 50:49 will with the appropriate choice in this circumstance. That's 50:53 just an easy one for us to get our hands on. But as he or she 50:57 grows morally, making those better and better choices, then 51:01 trust increases and they are, this is the key, becoming with 51:05 each new decision, a slightly different person than they were before they made that decision. 51:08 Ty: That's right. Jeffrey: That's deep. Do you think that 51:13 that the questions that God poses in Genesis 3, 51:17 I mean first of all, why is He even asking questions? 51:19 Adam, where are you? I've always asked, Did God not know? 51:22 Did He just wake up from a nap? Ty: He could've just appeared 51:24 right behind Him and said, Boo! Jeffrey: Yes, Adam where are 51:28 you? Adam? Adam? Did God not know? He knew, right? And then 51:33 He says, Did you eat from that tree? 51:37 Did God know whether he ate or not? David: Of course. 51:39 Jeffrey: It's almost like He's asking the questions in order 51:43 for Adam and Eve to process the person they've just become 51:46 after their morally inferior decision. I think it's powerful. 51:50 David: It's the mirror. Jeffrey: And could it be that from then 51:54 on, the story of Scripture you were talking about Eden to Eden, 51:58 is this prolonged story of God trying to confront us and get us 52:02 to process who have you become? Where 52:10 are you? Not geographically, but where are you in your soul? 52:14 What are you? What have you become? I think that 52:20 there's something there in the question. David: When Cain 52:22 murders Abel, Where is your brother? David: He's putting 52:24 the mirror up. Jeffrey: He's constantly asking questions. 52:26 None of which He did not have the answer for. James: And He's 52:29 constantly bringing us to a higher level of character 52:32 development experience. You even see this in the book of Job. Job 52:36 is revealed in Job chapter 1 as a perfect person. He's perfect 52:40 in that he wakes up early in the morning and he prays for his 52:45 kids, not because they're good kids but because he's afraid 52:47 they are not. And he's giving himself, he's giving his time 52:48 for his kids. He's praying for them, and of course, which one 52:50 of us as parents wouldn't want to be praying for our children? 52:53 But then he goes through this devastating experience, I mean 52:57 evil just comes into his life in a way that is beyond anything 52:59 that I've experienced, I can't even comprehend it. David: 53:02 Beyond what I've experienced. James: And we see the curtain 53:04 drawn back and we see that Satan is the one 53:09 that's behind all of this, that God has allowed this in a sense, 53:13 but Job really struggles. First his wife struggles, but then he 53:15 really struggles with all of this. And, his friends come, 53:17 they try to comfort him but then they start talking, 53:21 and they go through this whole experience where Job 53:23 finally says, You guys are miserable comforters, you're 53:24 worthless physicians, just be quiet. Ty: And their talking 53:27 is full of theology, by the way. James: Yes, it is, about God. 53:30 Theodicy,wrong theodicy. Then, God shows up. God basically 53:34 says to Job, Job, if you think that you have a better way, if 53:38 you could just get My power, My glory and you would just wipe 53:41 everyone out, then I would confess that you could save 53:46 yourself but I have this process that I'm working through, that 53:48 we've been describing and talking about it here, and this process has a way of 53:51 developing even your character. And Job sees it. He sees it 53:54 fully. And when he's done, when God is finished with him, this 53:58 is what happens, in Job 42:10, Job comes to the place where 54:02 he's not only praying for his family but he's praying for his 54:06 miserable comforter, worthless physician friends. God says, 54:10 to his friends, he rebukes them and he says, Now I want you to 54:14 go because Job is going to pray for you. The guy that doesn't 54:18 want to hear from you, doesn't want to talk to you, but he's 54:20 going to pray for you. David: Real quick, one time 54:22 I was asking my kids, giving them little Bible 54:25 tests like, who was married to Abraham, and who was 54:28 the son of Isaac, and one of the trivia questions I asked them 54:35 was how many friends did Job have? And my oldest said, None. 54:37 All: (laughter) Ty: I think it's fascinating too, 54:40 James, that when you go through the story of Job and you come 54:43 to the conclusion and God says, Listen Job, if 54:51 you had my power and you were able 54:55 to deal with the evil and the suffering that you're going 54:57 through in the world I'm sure you think you have a better way, 55:00 but I'm going through a process. One of the things that God 55:04 divulges is when He says to Job, Job, I'm dealing with a 55:08 formidable enemy that you can't comprehend or deal with. If you 55:12 tried to draw him out with a fishing line, you'd never want 55:16 to encounter him again. I'm dealing with a cosmic enemy that 55:23 is symbolized by Leviathan, and this loops back to chapters 1 55:25 and 2, where on one tier of the story line, Job doesn't 55:28 know what is going on, there was a day when the sons of God 55:30 presented themselves before the Lord and Satan came among them. 55:35 So God is looping back and He's telling Job, Listen, I'm dealing 55:41 with a great controversy between good and evil that you can't 55:43 process or deal with and I'm dealing with it in the way, the 55:46 only way, it can be dealt with to get the final, ultimate 55:53 outcome that all of us will want. James: Yes, and in fact, the Bible it goes from 55:57 Leviathan in Job to the serpent in Revelation chapter 12, 56:01 who is Satan the accuser of the brethren. 56:06 Jeffrey: I love in the end of Job, he says, 56:10 I have uttered what I did not understand. 56:15 Oh, so you have better ideas. Okay, here's the God label, 56:19 you go ahead and run the Universe and show me how 56:21 it's done. And, then Job says, I have uttered what I did not 56:24 understand. Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 56:28 So, as you said, in the end he acknowledges. All the question 56:32 marks are worth leaving there, God is in control. David: 56:34 Jeffrey started the conversation, the second conversation with that great 56:36 quotation from C.S. Lewis about sawing off the branch that we 56:39 are sitting on and that God apparently thought it was worth 56:44 the risk. And right now, it's very hard for me to see, with all the pain, suffering, 56:52 sickness, death and disease in the world that it is worth the 56:54 risk, but I believe that it must be because I'm trusting God. 56:55 If God is going to get this world to the place where there 56:58 are real relationships with real people, He has to go through 57:04 the pathway of real risk and real moral growth and 57:08 responsibility, and that's the world that we live in. The 57:12 question, you know there's the big question about theodicy, but 57:13 at the end of the day I have to sleep in my own bed, I have to 57:15 live in my own living room, I have to drive my own car, how do 57:17 I use my freedom? Jeffrey: What about the thing about that God 57:19 experiences the pain more than we do? 57:24 Ty: Of course. David: I heard somebody say, Did you go to 57:26 a funeral yesterday? And, you're sad about it? Well, God went 57:29 to every funeral yesterday. Ty: Guys, I guess the bottom line 57:33 is that God is love, and because God is love He created 57:41 us with the capacity to love, and that capacity is called 57:45 freedom. It's risky, but ultimately 57:49 God regards it worth the risk, and ultimately 57:53 when we're 5 billion years into the future 57:57 with no more sin or suffering, no evil in the Universe, 58:01 I think we can safely say that looking back from eternity 58:03 future to the suffering that we've known in this life 58:09 as somebody said, it'll be like looking back on one bad night 58:11 in a bad hotel. I mean, God is love and 58:17 ultimately He is going to create a Universe in which love 58:21 prevails. James: Amen. Looking forward to that day. 58:25 To receive our free monthly newsletter and a list of Light 58:29 Bearers resources, visit us online at www.lightbearers.org or call us toll free 58:33 at 877-585-1111 58:37 You can also write to us at Light Bearers, 58:41 37457 Jasper Lowell Rd., Jasper, Oregon 97438 |
Revised 2014-12-17