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Jeffrey: So far in this series
of conversations, we've been
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nailing down some pretty big
themes. We've been talking about
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the fundamental issues when
we talk about God, when we talk
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about the Bible and when we talk
about humanity. And, we've been
harping a lot about
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this idea that God is love. That
God is love, God is love, but at
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some point we have to come back
to reality, to earth, to Planet
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Earth, to realize that. Even
though God is love and even
though the Bible paints
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this amazing picture
of the character of God,
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the world is messed up. We live
in a messy world and it doesn't
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seem like things are
like God intended them to be.
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And, I guess before we enter
into this discussion on the
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warfare that we are involved in,
the spiritual warfare, I want to
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open up by sharing an experience
that I think sets the stage and
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presents a dilemma. I was
invited to go to the hospital
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with a young lady
whose father was sitting in a
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coma with tubes sticking out of
him. She came home one day and
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she found him under
the car, in the driveway
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with the car on top of his
neck. He was fixing the car
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and it fell on top of him.
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And by the time
she got to the scene,
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it was bad news.
She called the cops, and
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now dad is sitting in this
hospital bed with tubes sticking
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out of him. And, I remember I
had been giving Bible studies to
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her and she invited me
to the bedside and she...
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as soon as I walked into that
room, I just thought, Ohhh, what
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in world am I going to say? And
she looked at her father, and
she looked at me and
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she started to cry.
She said, Jeffrey, what
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in the world, what in the world?
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And I remember thinking, I could
come up with all kinds of fancy
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arguments, I can pull out all
the philosophy, and all the, you
know, the impressive
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stuff, but at the end of the
day what is that going to do for
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people who are aching in
this world and who hear that God
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is amazing, God is amazing, He
loves us, He loves us? And, yet
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for the very people we love,
and just all around us, there is
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pain, there's suffering. And,
I remember thinking, What am I
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going to say?" And the thing
that came to my mind, I said to
her, Listen, I have
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no idea why God allowed
this to happen. I have no idea.
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I can't even pretend to come
up with some explanation. But
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at the end of the day, even if I
could explain this to you, even
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if I could say, Here are the
three reasons why that happened
on that day and why
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that car slipped, even if I
could explain all that, would
that automatically,
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magically remove the pain from
your heart? I said, It wouldn't.
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At the end of the day, you don't
need an explanation as to why
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all the detailed things in this
world happen the way they
happen. At the end of the day,
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you need to know, can I trust
God? Ty: Yes. Jeffrey: That's
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the bottom line, and I think
that's the question. We're in a
war, this world is a war.
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C.S. Lewis says, "We are in the
corner of the Universe that is
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enemy occupied territory." And
so, how do we harmonize, how do
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we make sense out of that?
David: In the last conversation
that we had, we were
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discussing, you used
the language, enemy occupied
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territory, and we started to
talk about this angelic realm
and the fact that there are
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other beings, spiritual
beings, organized beings,
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who were created good and
perfect and loyal, but one of
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whom, who then led
others, went into a rebellious
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state, so I think the language
is exactly correct there, it is
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enemy occupied territory. I
think Lewis is right on to it.
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It's interesting, just this
morning I was reading in my
Twitter account that
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someone said that if you go
to the hospital or you go to the
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orphanage or go to some place
where a tragedy has happened
just like you described,
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and it was just helpful to me as
a pastor, it said you don't have
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to have an explanation of reason
or any clever, logical,
philosophical thing
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to say, your job is to show
up, and shut up. Just be there.
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Because you're right, what do
you say? James: that reminds me
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of the story of Job, and Job
chapters 1 and 2, a man is
devastated, a human being
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is devastated, he loses
everything that means anything
to him in his life.
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All of his children, all of
his wealth, his reputation, his
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health, everything is gone. And
the first thing that happened
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after that is his friends show
up, three of them, and for two
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weeks they just sit with him
in silence. And that is the most
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comfort that Job receives,
because after that they start
talking and things go
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downhill. David: (laughter)
Ty: He calls them my miserable
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comforters. James: Yes, but for
those first two weeks, that's
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the most comfort he receives
in that whole experience. Ty: I
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wonder if we could kind
of inch in this direction,
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really, that is the fact of
the matter, because human beings
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are intellectual and
rational creatures as we
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talked about before, but also
emotional creatures, relational
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creatures. And so,
in the moment of pain,
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right when you're in
the throes of the agony,
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that's not when
somebody needs to sit down and
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to give you point 1,
point 2, point 3 theological
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answers, but here is the truth
of the matter, everybody does
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have theology, to one
degree or another. Everybody is
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coming to their
episode of suffering with
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a rational content, whatever
that rational content happens to
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be. And so, when
your friend came to
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experience that suffering with
her father, I think of myself
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when I came to suffering that I
experienced early on in my life.
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I had a certain data,
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and that data was the lens
through which I interpreted it.
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So my pain, and how I processed
it, was effected by what I
believed to be true
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about reality and
ultimately about God. So while
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in the midst of pain,
sitting by the hospital bed,
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that's not really the time
to just bust out a Bible study
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point 1, 2, 3, but
wow, there needs to be
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some serious and clear teaching
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and education prior to our
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encounters with suffering
so that when it happens, we can
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process what's taking place
from the high vantage ground
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of an accurate picture of
the character of God. Do you
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understand what I'm saying? Is
it making sense? David: Listen,
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I understand exactly what you're
saying. This is what Paul said
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to the church of Thessalonica
when he was writing to them
about their loved ones that
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were dying, were in pain
and were suffering. James: Yes.
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David: And he basically has this
great line where he says, that
we suffer. He says,
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I do not want you to be
ignorant, I'm in 1 Thessalonians
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4:13, "I do not want you to
ignorant, brethren, concerning
those who have fallen
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asleep, lest you sorrow as
others who have no hope." So
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what Paul says here, and this
was your point, even if you had
an explanation, the suffering
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is still there so whether you
are a believer or not a
believer, or whatever,
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the perception is of the data
through which you process pain,
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there's always suffering,
there's always sorrow associated
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with death. there's always
suffering, there's always sorrow
associated with death.
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To suddenly not feel no pain,
but to process that pain, that
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suffering, that injustice in the
appropriate way. Ty: I remember
a World War Il quote,
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and I don't know if it was
Ellie Wiesel or who said it,
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but in my memory it is
him, he was in a death camp
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and afterwards as a
survivor he wrote a single line
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that basically epitomized what
people were going through there
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on a theological
level, and the statement is
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this, and it's just very simple
but wow, it gets to the bottom
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line of this question we are
talking about. He said,
"Whatever you believe about God,
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you need to be able
to explain while standing
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around a pit of
burning children."
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So, if you can just picture it,
and it's a horrible, horrible
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picture, but if you can just
picture everybody encountering
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that suffering. David: That
scene Ty: Everybody is
processing it in some way,
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they are making
sense or no sense out of it
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according to whatever the
theological lens is that they
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brought to the pit. Some people
in those concentration camps,
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they said, Well,I'm an atheist
then. I don't believe in God if
this is the kind of
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thing that God is up to. So, I'm
an unbeliever now. I came here
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as a believer, I'm not a
believer anymore. Other people
processed what they saw
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in the World War II
death camps and came out
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not unbelievers, but believers.
And, something made the
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difference. And, I think
that at the very least it was
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some kind of rational foundation
with which they approached
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this situation. Right?
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So let me go one step further
with this point, and that is
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this, I think that this question
about theodicy, theo is God,
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dike is justice, theodicy is
that branch of theology, that's
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the high word for
it, that means, basically
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the justice aspect, the goodness
aspect of the character of God
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in the light of suffering.
How do we make sense of God's
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character in the light of
suffering? David: As someone
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once said, justifying the ways
of God to men. Ty: Yes. David:
Trying to make sense
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out of, 'how can God be that and
the world be that?' Ty: Yes, so
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that's theodicy. Whether you
use the word or not, here's my
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point. I think theodicy is the
most naturally occurring aspect
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of theology. In other words,
somebody doesn't come into the
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world, growing up in no
religious home, for example,
like me. I never wondered about
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certain questions like, for
example, Creation, or what the
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gospel taught, or what is the
nature of Christ? David: The
sanctuary. Ty: The sanctuary.
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No, but I encountered suffering
and I instinctively asked
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Why? Why in the world?
Jeffrey: The question "why" is a
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summation of theodicy. Ty: It's
universal. Everybody encounters
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suffering and when they do,
they ask why. James: And that's
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theodicy. David: There's
something I just have to throw
in there, Ty, you said
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that basically you could have
people come up to this pit of
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terrible suffering and some
people are going to leave and
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say, the Universe clearly has no
meaning, it's nonsensical, it's
a terrible, harmful
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place and things happen so I'm
not a believer. And, others left
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believers but some of those
believers, sadly, would have
left thinking something
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like, this fits into
God's plan. God wanted,
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or at some level, superintended
this, so you have first the
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split between unbelievers
and believers, but even among
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believers, even among the
categories of believers, we have
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to ask the question, is
suffering somehow God's plan and
intention, and He's
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actually superintending it
in a positive sense, or is it
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something that God hates, and
loathes more than we are
ourselves do but it's a product
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of the way He is governing the
Universe? Ty: Yes, we would have
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to back up to, basically, the
foundation of reality. David:
Which is love Ty: Yes, and
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just ask ourselves the question,
ok, there is suffering, there is
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evil in the world, is there
a different kind of world God
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could have made to absolutely,
I'm using that word in the very
technical, extreme sense,
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rule out the possibly of
suffering? Was that kind of
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world possible? Could God have
made a world in which suffering
could not have occurred?
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James: He could have, if He
wanted to make a world where we
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were this: David talked about
this yesterday, where we were
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just controlled puppets, and
just automatons and we were just
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told what to do and what not
to do and so whenever temptation
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or choice came along, we
just did whatever God told us to
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do. There was no freedom, in
other words. But love entails
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freedom. Ty: Yes, that's right.
David: In fact it even requires
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it. Love requires
freedom. James: Right.
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David: Because if love is the
choice of loyalty and we've been
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talking about to appreciate God
for who He is. We talked about
leading from positon
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vs. leading from influence.
Satan wanted to be like God in
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terms of his position but not
like God in terms of His
character. So, true love
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requires me to
appreciate you for who you are,
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not just for the power or
authority you have over me, but
if it's true freedom,
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then I can exercise the right
to not appreciate that which I
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ought to or should. Freedom
is essential to the equation.
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Ty: So, for God, what would
be the definition of a perfect
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world? He's venturing into
creation, I'm going to make
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mankind in My image. What's it
going to be? Jeffrey: A perfect
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world. Ty: What's perfection?
Jeffrey: It is a world in which
love is possible to
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experience. David: There you go.
Jeffrey: A world in which love
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is possible to experience, it
is a world in which freedom of
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individual choices is a
necessity. Because without the
ability to choose to
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accept or reject love, love is
not possible. David: Could you
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just say your first line again,
Jeffrey? A perfect world is a
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world in which love is possible.
Jeffrey: And a world in which
love is possible is a world that
00:14:19.60\00:14:26.70
necessitates the presence of
freedom. Ty: So you're defining
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love as being intrinsically
connected with freedom. In other
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words, that means it could go
one of two ways. Jeffrey: Yes,
00:14:37.86\00:14:39.86
and somebody might say
God is almighty, God is
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omniscient, God
knows everything so
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nothing is impossible for
God. So, if that's true then why
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couldn't God create a world
in which everybody had freedom
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but nobody
chose the wrong thing?
00:14:58.23\00:15:02.33
David: Yes, I got it. Jeffrey:
And, the point there is that it
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doesn't make sense because
freedom, in order for it to be
true freedom, always allows
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the possibly. Ty: C.S. Lewis
said nonsense is still nonsense,
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even when we speak of God. The
idea being to say, why couldn't,
00:15:13.10\00:15:17.23
if God is omniscient, why
couldn't He create a world in
which people are free
00:15:17.23\00:15:21.30
to love but they never have the
possibility of choosing not to
00:15:21.30\00:15:29.40
love. David: It's incoherent.
Ty: Yes, it's incoherent because
00:15:29.40\00:15:31.43
you just said love and freedom
but then you said not free. So,
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you can only have one or the
other you can't have both, can
you? Jeffrey: And it's like,
00:15:34.53\00:15:41.66
can God make a stone that is too
big for Him to carry? Ty: Square
00:15:41.66\00:15:45.73
circle. Jeffrey: Yes, can God
make a square circle? Logically
it doesn't make sense.
00:15:45.73\00:15:49.86
David: We spent time, we
went through a great discussion
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and conversation about Adam in
the Garden of Eden and we talked
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about how they began to
experience shame and guilt and
00:15:55.96\00:15:59.00
fear and blaming and all of
that. You might recall that
right at the end of the
00:15:59.00\00:16:02.63
conversation, I said, but our
whole conversation here assumes
00:16:02.63\00:16:06.43
and rests upon the basic premise
that Adam was free to be loyal
or not to be loyal.
00:16:06.43\00:16:14.30
He was free to love or not to
love, to give allegiance or to
00:16:14.30\00:16:16.30
withhold it. And that's what
we're talking about here. Not
just in Adam's case
00:16:16.30\00:16:19.36
but in my case. Am I really
free to wear the shirt that I'm
00:16:19.36\00:16:22.93
wearing? Jeffrey: You know, I
don't know how much time we have
00:16:22.93\00:16:26.73
left but I was driving in my car
in San Jose and I was listening
00:16:26.73\00:16:34.56
to the radio a couple of years
back and it was a report from
00:16:34.56\00:16:40.53
North Korea about the elections
at the time, and Kim Jong-il,
00:16:40.53\00:16:44.53
the report said
that it was 98.99%
00:16:44.53\00:16:48.53
turnout, and then it said
00:16:48.53\00:16:52.53
all votes were for
the sole candidate.
00:16:52.53\00:16:56.53
David: Kim Jong-il won in a
landslide! Jeffrey: And I was
00:16:56.53\00:17:00.70
thinking, the sole
candidate? That's not like God.
00:17:00.70\00:17:04.80
I think this one of the most
00:17:04.80\00:17:06.80
compelling things about God
is that He made sure that there
00:17:06.80\00:17:09.86
were other candidates that you
can vote for. And I always tell
00:17:09.86\00:17:13.46
the ladies, I always say,
imagine being on an island, a
little island in Fiji
00:17:13.46\00:17:17.30
somewhere and it's
you and some dude, right?
00:17:17.30\00:17:25.20
And, there's nobody else.
David: By the way, there are
00:17:25.20\00:17:29.20
many people on Fiji.
Jeffrey: No, an island off
00:17:29.20\00:17:33.30
of Fiji, and the guy comes up
to you, there's no other women
00:17:33.30\00:17:35.33
on the island, he's never even
seen another woman. Ty: Another?
00:17:35.33\00:17:38.36
Jeffrey: Another lady, no. And,
he drops to his knees and he
00:17:38.36\00:17:41.90
says, I just want to tell you
that I want you more than any
00:17:41.90\00:17:45.73
other women in this world.
David: (laughter) Jeffrey: So
the whole point is...
00:17:45.73\00:17:49.66
Yeah, you're the prettiest girl
I've ever seen, and so would the
00:17:49.66\00:17:51.66
girl feel special? Of course
not, there are no other woman.
00:17:51.66\00:17:56.73
It's either me or the coconuts.
You know? So in that situation,
00:17:56.73\00:18:01.33
he's not really choosing her.
Ty: That's right. I think the
most famous quotation
00:18:01.33\00:18:09.96
by il is that, of
course everyone in North Korea
00:18:09.96\00:18:14.10
is free, they're just
not allowed to leave. All:
00:18:14.10\00:18:18.16
(laughter)
That's the idea, there
00:18:18.16\00:18:22.26
really is no freedom
when there is absolute
00:18:22.26\00:18:26.26
restriction, and so
love requires freedom
00:18:26.26\00:18:30.33
but freedom is risky. We
need to take a break right now
00:18:30.33\00:18:34.43
and just share with
those who are sitting in on the
00:18:34.43\00:18:36.43
conversation with us what
we do as a ministry. We're just
00:18:36.43\00:18:42.46
eager to have people partner
with us in what we do, so let's
00:18:42.46\00:18:44.53
just take a
break. David: Excellent
00:18:44.53\00:18:49.56
God has blessed us
00:18:50.60\00:18:54.66
with the equipment that we
need, the facility that we need.
00:18:54.66\00:18:56.73
Presently with the financial
resources that come into this
00:18:56.73\00:18:59.80
ministry we're able to
print 20 to 30 million pieces of
00:18:59.80\00:19:07.03
literature every year. If we
were to maximize this equipment
00:19:07.03\00:19:11.13
we could easily print
40, 50, 60 million pieces
00:19:11.13\00:19:15.16
of literature every calendar
year, and put it into the field.
00:19:15.16\00:19:19.23
(music)
00:19:19.23\00:19:23.40
We need people who want
to partner with us to really
00:19:23.40\00:19:25.43
stretch their evangelistic
dollar. When we ask people
00:19:25.43\00:19:31.56
to sponsor the work that
we're doing, we feel that this
00:19:31.56\00:19:33.56
is one of the best ways to
utilize the resources that God
00:19:33.56\00:19:36.60
has given to each one of us.
00:19:36.60\00:19:40.20
We would like people to know
what they are contributing is
00:19:40.20\00:19:44.00
not in vain, it
makes a huge difference.
00:19:44.00\00:19:51.86
With what we're doing,
every dollar puts multiple
00:19:51.86\00:19:56.00
messages out in the field, and
when it arrives on their end,
00:19:56.00\00:20:00.06
it's free of charge. The word of
God is free, and if it is shared
00:20:00.06\00:20:04.16
it is full of charge, and it is
that many people have access to
00:20:04.16\00:20:08.23
it. $100 a month, $50 a month,
$10 a month, makes a difference.
00:20:08.23\00:20:12.33
We need to do everything to
preach this gospel. People are
00:20:12.33\00:20:16.43
suffering, they
don't have peace.
00:20:16.43\00:20:24.60
(music)
00:20:24.60\00:20:28.63
You can take a four
color tract that is filled
00:20:28.63\00:20:32.66
with the gospel of Jesus Christ,
you can print it, fold it, pack
00:20:32.66\00:20:34.70
it, ship it overseas and by the
time it gets to a third world
00:20:34.70\00:20:37.76
country and touches the heart of
an individual the cost of that
00:20:37.76\00:20:41.33
tract is about four cents, or
less. Give to God's work. Become
00:20:41.33\00:20:45.13
partners with God. Become
partners with the work that
00:20:45.13\00:20:49.10
Light Bearers is doing, and you
will receive a great blessing
00:20:49.10\00:20:53.13
than the one that you give.
00:20:53.13\00:21:01.30
We're looking for partners and
friends who will join with us
00:21:01.30\00:21:05.46
to put this
literature out to the masses.
00:21:05.46\00:21:09.50
To partner with Light
Bearers in spreading the gospel,
00:21:09.50\00:21:11.53
visit us online at
www.lightbearers.org or call us
00:21:11.53\00:21:13.03
toll free at 877-585-1111
You can also write to us
00:21:13.03\00:21:21.63
at Light Bearers 37457 Jasper
Lowell Rd., Jasper, Oregon 97438
00:21:21.63\00:21:29.66
(music)
00:21:29.66\00:21:33.70
Jeffrey: So Ty just
00:21:33.70\00:21:37.80
ended the previous
conversation on the idea
00:21:37.80\00:21:41.83
of risk. God is
love, God requires
00:21:41.83\00:21:45.93
freedom but anytime
you have real freedom, not
00:21:45.93\00:21:50.00
the fake, but real freedom,
it's always risky because
00:21:50.00\00:21:52.03
the risk is that they might
exercise their freedom the wrong
00:21:52.03\00:21:55.40
way, and in 'Mere Christianity'
p. 52, C.S. Lewis wrote this
00:21:55.40\00:22:02.90
really interesting statement
here, it says, "Some people
00:22:02.90\00:22:07.00
think that they can imagine
a creature which was free, but
00:22:07.00\00:22:11.10
had no possibility of
going wrong, I cannot.
00:22:11.10\00:22:15.13
The happiness which God designs
00:22:15.13\00:22:19.20
for His creatures is
the happiness of being
00:22:19.20\00:22:23.26
freely voluntarily
united to Him and to each other.
00:22:23.26\00:22:27.33
Of course God knew
what would happen if they
00:22:27.33\00:22:31.40
used their freedom
the wrong way. Apparently,
00:22:31.40\00:22:35.50
He thought it worth the
risk." I love this, and it gets
00:22:35.50\00:22:39.56
better here. "Perhaps we
feel inclined to disagree with
00:22:39.56\00:22:43.60
Him. But there is a difficulty
in disagreeing with God, He
00:22:43.60\00:22:47.70
is the source from which
all your reasoning power comes.
00:22:47.70\00:22:51.76
You could not be right and
He wrong anymore than a stream
00:22:51.76\00:22:55.86
can rise higher than it's
own source. When you are arguing
00:22:55.86\00:22:59.86
against Him, you are arguing
against the very power that
00:22:59.86\00:23:01.96
makes you able to argue at all.
It's like cutting off the very
00:23:01.96\00:23:05.03
branch you are sitting on. If
God thinks," and this is the key
00:23:05.03\00:23:08.56
here, guys, "if God thinks this
state of war in the Universe
00:23:08.56\00:23:16.16
a price worth paying
for free will, that is
00:23:16.16\00:23:20.16
making a live world
in which creatures can do
00:23:20.16\00:23:24.20
real good or harm," which is
the type of world we live in,
00:23:24.20\00:23:26.23
"and something of real
importance can happen, instead
00:23:26.23\00:23:32.40
of a toy world which only
moves when He pulls the strings,
00:23:32.40\00:23:36.43
then we may take
it is worth paying."
00:23:36.43\00:23:40.50
Jeffrey: That's powerful. David:
There's so many things in there.
00:23:40.50\00:23:44.63
Ty: From a biblical perspective,
and we haven't yet really
00:23:44.63\00:23:48.66
brought any Scripture to the
table, so I just want to read
00:23:48.66\00:23:56.96
this verse and preface it
by saying, right here we are
00:23:56.96\00:23:59.00
listening to the voice of
omnipotent God speaking, Ok?
00:23:59.00\00:24:02.13
Jeffrey: Where are you? Ty:
Well, you'll guess when I'm at.
00:24:02.13\00:24:03.90
Omnipotent God is speaking
here. "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
00:24:03.90\00:24:06.26
the one who stones the prophets
and kills those who were sent to
00:24:06.26\00:24:11.80
her. How often I wanted to
gather your children together as
00:24:11.80\00:24:16.60
a hen gathers her chicks under
her wings, but you were not
00:24:16.60\00:24:18.80
willing." You were not willing.
So, do you see what's happening?
00:24:18.80\00:24:24.20
There are two wills in this
text, this is Matthew 23, verses
00:24:24.20\00:24:28.90
37-38. Here is Jesus, God
incarnate, and He's articulating
00:24:28.90\00:24:37.70
how omnipotence operates.
00:24:37.70\00:24:41.80
The premise on which God weids
power, I guess we could say.
00:24:41.80\00:24:45.86
And God is saying to human
beings, Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem,
00:24:45.86\00:24:49.96
I wanted but you
would not. So, what's
00:24:49.96\00:24:54.00
happening there? Is God
impotent because He wants
00:24:54.00\00:24:56.00
something to happen but it's not
happening? Or rather, does God
00:24:56.00\00:25:04.53
choose in His own sovereign
freedom to exercise His
00:25:04.53\00:25:06.53
omnipotence by creating a world
in which there is real freedom.
00:25:06.53\00:25:09.53
In other words, God can
do anything He wants if He is
00:25:09.53\00:25:13.03
omnipotent? And, what does
He want? He wants a free world.
00:25:13.03\00:25:16.76
James: Yes. David: I think the
verse you read there is exactly
00:25:16.76\00:25:20.66
the point. That there is a war
of wills that is going on. You
00:25:20.66\00:25:24.60
recall the statement, in
Isaiah 14 that we talked about,
00:25:24.60\00:25:26.56
Lucifer, the fall of Lucifer. I
will, I will, I will exalt, I
will ascend, I will be
00:25:26.56\00:25:31.56
above. It's a war of wills. It's
my will vs. your will. What God
00:25:31.56\00:25:33.83
did is He created beings,
and this is another Lewis quote,
00:25:33.83\00:25:39.23
and this is one of my favorites,
he says, the greatest,
00:25:39.23\00:25:41.56
miraculous act that God
basically has done is that He
created a situation
00:25:41.56\00:25:47.16
in which He could be resisted
by His own handiwork. So, if I,
00:25:47.16\00:25:49.76
let's just say for the purpose
of illustration that I created
00:25:49.76\00:25:51.26
you, Ty, if I was omnipotent
God and I and I create you as an
00:25:51.26\00:25:53.06
automaton like this, well then
I can manipulate you however
00:25:53.06\00:25:55.16
I want, but if I create you not
like this, but like that,like
00:25:55.16\00:26:02.93
the real Ty, who can wear the
green sweater and who can open
00:26:02.93\00:26:05.50
the Bible to that passage or
marry Sue or whatever you choose
00:26:05.50\00:26:08.60
to do, and if I have genuinely
00:26:08.60\00:26:11.50
created you that way, then your
will can be at cross purposes
00:26:11.50\00:26:18.10
with my will, and I will respect
that, as much as it pains me.
00:26:18.10\00:26:21.86
James: There's something
here that comes to mind, too, in
00:26:21.86\00:26:24.76
Matthew chapter 6. Now, just
building on this theme, on this
00:26:24.76\00:26:29.13
idea, Matthew chapter 6 is
where the disciples come to
00:26:29.13\00:26:32.20
Jesus and they say,
teach us how to pray.
00:26:32.20\00:26:33.93
And Jesus gives
them this overarching,
00:26:33.93\00:26:37.46
basic outline of
prayer. There are two key verses
00:26:37.46\00:26:43.46
that I think play
into this really powerfully
00:26:43.46\00:26:46.33
because they help
us to understand this
00:26:46.33\00:26:49.20
conflict, there is a distinction
and a difference taking place
00:26:49.20\00:26:56.46
between the two. In Matthew
chapter 6, Jesus says in verse
00:26:56.46\00:27:02.20
10, that we should pray to God,
"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be
00:27:02.20\00:27:06.10
done in earth, as it is in
heaven." So right there in that
verse, you get the distinct,
00:27:06.10\00:27:09.80
clear impression that what's
being done this earth is not
00:27:09.80\00:27:13.50
always in harmony with God's
will, with what's being done in
00:27:13.50\00:27:18.46
heaven. And then He goes on
to say in verse 13, He says you
00:27:18.46\00:27:22.50
should also pray, "Lead us not
into temptation, but deliver us
from evil." And then
00:27:22.50\00:27:29.70
He goes on to say, "for
Thine is the kingdom, the power
00:27:29.70\00:27:31.60
and glory." So, deliver us from
evil, so in other words we are
00:27:31.60\00:27:34.60
to pray to be delievered from
evil, that is the evil that is
taking place in this world.
00:27:34.60\00:27:38.26
See, some people conclude
that, Well, God is in control of
00:27:38.26\00:27:41.23
everything that takes place on
Planet Earth. But that doesn't
00:27:41.23\00:27:44.13
make sense because then we
would be praying to be delivered
00:27:44.13\00:27:47.26
from God, from Himself, and that
is just a contradiction. Ty:
00:27:47.26\00:27:51.90
Some people have that theology,
though. Recently some tragic
00:27:51.90\00:27:54.86
events have taken place in our
world that are just plastered in
00:27:54.86\00:28:00.66
the news, and religious figures,
Christian leaders, some of them
00:28:00.66\00:28:04.70
have stepped forward
to make comments on these
00:28:04.70\00:28:07.63
tragic events and the basic jest
of the comments are, it's God's
00:28:07.63\00:28:12.53
sovereign will that these things
happen because God is seen
00:28:12.53\00:28:18.36
primarily in terms of power
being the fundamental aspect of
00:28:18.36\00:28:25.30
His being and exercise of
His being rather than what we're
00:28:25.30\00:28:28.56
talking about and that is that
love is primary with God, and
00:28:28.56\00:28:32.13
not power. George MacDonald said
something very interesting. He
00:28:32.13\00:28:39.30
said, is love or power the
making might of the Universe?
00:28:39.30\00:28:44.23
He who has the answer to
this question has the answer
00:28:44.23\00:28:47.56
to all worthy
questions. The point is,
00:28:47.56\00:28:51.13
MacDonald is saying, listen
is the fundamental governance
00:28:51.13\00:28:54.20
that God is exercising, one
of power or one of love that
00:28:54.20\00:28:59.86
holds power and restraint.
If you answer that one question,
00:28:59.86\00:29:02.93
all theology falls into place
around it. David: I so deeply
resonate with that.
00:29:02.93\00:29:09.56
I just cringe in my heart of
hearts when I hear some of the
00:29:09.56\00:29:12.83
things that Christian leaders
say about that tornado or that
00:29:12.83\00:29:18.00
hurricane or that earthquake,
I just think, Lord, please hide
00:29:18.00\00:29:22.36
the ears of sensitive people
from this foolishness. And I
00:29:22.36\00:29:25.63
don't mean to be too
strong there, but it is crazy to
00:29:25.63\00:29:29.10
suggest that God somehow intends
and superintends the rape of
that girl, the murder
00:29:29.10\00:29:34.53
of that man, the genocide
of that culture. It's the point
00:29:34.53\00:29:38.50
that you're making. If God is
doing all of this, if He is
somehow superintending it
00:29:38.50\00:29:42.23
and even at some level because
it brings Him glory, wanting it,
00:29:42.23\00:29:46.13
then what are we praying
for when we pray for deliverance
00:29:46.13\00:29:48.70
from the thing. Jeffrey: We
haven't arrived there yet but
00:29:48.70\00:29:52.73
isn't the Cross of Calvary the
greatest example that there are
00:29:52.73\00:29:58.13
two wills and that God's
will doesn't always go through,
00:29:58.13\00:30:02.70
right? Because Jesus had to come
to this world in response to the
00:30:02.70\00:30:06.63
fact that God's will was
violated. Ty: Yes, that's right.
00:30:06.63\00:30:11.30
We do need to qualify though
that, and we'll get to this in
later conversations, because
00:30:11.30\00:30:16.23
that is the trajectory, the fact
is that God's will is not always
00:30:16.23\00:30:21.66
carried out in every situation,
otherwise there would be no
00:30:21.66\00:30:25.20
freedom, but God's will
ultimately will prevail in the
great controversy between
00:30:25.20\00:30:30.20
good and evil and a Universe
will finally exist in which God
00:30:30.20\00:30:34.36
has saved human beings while
pulling off the amazing feat of
00:30:34.36\00:30:39.73
preserving free will. David:
Preserving their free will. Ty:
00:30:39.73\00:30:44.73
And, we will never see sin
and suffering again, not because
00:30:44.73\00:30:46.63
we cannot sin, but because
we will not sin. David: See what
00:30:46.63\00:30:49.63
God is trying to do right now
is win, not just the war, He's
00:30:49.63\00:30:54.26
trying to win the war in the
right way which is by winning
00:30:54.26\00:30:57.80
not by the strength of His
power, or the puissance of His
00:30:57.80\00:31:02.23
position but on the strength
of His character. Listen to this
00:31:02.23\00:31:06.86
verse from Luke chapter 7 where
John the Baptist had come out
00:31:06.86\00:31:11.10
and he was preaching this
message of repentance, this
00:31:11.10\00:31:14.33
message of turning toward
God, and many people went out
00:31:14.33\00:31:16.20
to hear the message of John
the Baptist and they responded
00:31:16.20\00:31:17.93
positively but now listen to
this , this is very interesting,
00:31:17.93\00:31:20.30
it says in verse 29 of Luke 7,
"and when all the people heard
00:31:20.30\00:31:23.63
him, even the tax collectors
praised God having been baptized
00:31:23.63\00:31:27.03
with the baptism of John,"
verse 30, "but the Pharisees and
00:31:27.03\00:31:30.20
lawyers rejected the will of God
for themselves, not having been
00:31:30.20\00:31:33.76
baptized by him." So God
had a will. God's will was that
00:31:33.76\00:31:37.16
everybody would respond to
the preaching of John. That
00:31:37.16\00:31:39.86
was God's will, God's hope,
God's plan But it says now that
00:31:39.86\00:31:43.73
there is other wills at the
table, and they rejected God's
00:31:43.73\00:31:47.10
will for themselves. They must
have genuinely had freedom and
00:31:47.10\00:31:51.90
God must have genuinely
acquiesced His omnipotence at
00:31:51.90\00:31:56.03
some level to allow room at the
table, oh, okay, to allow other
00:31:56.03\00:31:59.36
room at the table for other
wills. Certainly God could pick
00:31:59.36\00:32:02.70
up any human being and
manipulate them exactly as He
00:32:02.70\00:32:05.83
wanted them to do but then
what does He have? He doesn't
00:32:05.83\00:32:08.70
have Ty. Ty: He has
Himself. David: He has Himself
00:32:08.70\00:32:11.46
manipulating a puppet. Jeffrey:
Can I ask a question here? We
00:32:11.46\00:32:13.93
keep saying this is the type
of world God wanted, God wanted
00:32:13.93\00:32:18.46
creatures that were free,
God wanted, but... Ty: Well, not
00:32:18.46\00:32:22.20
this world. He wanted a world
in which there was freedom.
00:32:22.20\00:32:25.26
Jeffrey: The
original world. Ty: Yes.
00:32:25.26\00:32:27.13
David: He didn't want this world
but He wanted a free world.
00:32:27.13\00:32:30.93
Jeffrey: But even that, even
that's what I'm talking about.
Just think, Genesis,
00:32:30.93\00:32:33.46
pre-sin, perfect. That's
what I'm talking about. Ty: Yes.
00:32:33.46\00:32:37.23
Jeffrey: A perfect world, we
keep saying, God wanted, but is
00:32:37.23\00:32:39.96
there a sense in which God could
not have created any other type
00:32:39.96\00:32:44.16
of world because it would have
contrary to His very character.
00:32:44.16\00:32:49.06
Ty: I like that point, I was
immediately going to answer no
00:32:49.06\00:32:52.06
and now I'm answering yes.
Jeffrey: And let me just preface
00:32:52.06\00:32:56.73
it with this, the question, the
trick question, is there
anything God cannot do?
00:32:56.73\00:32:59.40
Ty: Of course. I can think
of three right off the top of my
00:32:59.40\00:33:04.36
head. Jeffrey: Ok, but typically
the people think there's nothing
00:33:04.36\00:33:07.23
God can't do. David: No, no, God
can do anything. Jeffrey: Well,
00:33:07.23\00:33:10.10
Titus 1:2 says that God cannot
lie. God cannot lie. So, there
00:33:10.10\00:33:14.53
are things that God can't
do. Not because God doesn't have
00:33:14.53\00:33:17.46
the biceps to do them, but
because those things would be
00:33:17.46\00:33:21.00
contrary to His very
character. David: There you go.
00:33:21.00\00:33:24.50
Ty: Yes, those things would be
contrary to His very character.
00:33:24.50\00:33:26.86
David: There you go. Ty: Yes.
Jeffrey: So God cannot do them,
00:33:26.86\00:33:28.66
not because He lacks ability
but because He would need to
00:33:28.66\00:33:30.86
cease to exist in order for that
to happen. Ty: That's who He is.
00:33:30.86\00:33:33.13
Jeffrey: So the point is,
God creates this world in which
00:33:33.13\00:33:36.40
freewill is possible not
because, Oh, it's just His cup
00:33:36.40\00:33:41.43
of tea, He prefers it. David:
Let's try it this way... Ty: I
have three options,
00:33:41.43\00:33:44.10
I'll do it this way. Jeffrey:
Yes, He likes this better than
00:33:44.10\00:33:46.50
that, No, no, it's, He can't
create a world in which
creatures are not free.
00:33:46.50\00:33:50.26
David: Well, what you mean by
that is He could, He physically
00:33:50.26\00:33:53.40
could but it wouldn't be in
keeping with the kind of God
00:33:53.40\00:33:55.93
that He is. Jeffrey: Right, it
would be impossible for Him to
00:33:55.93\00:33:59.30
be who He claims to be and do
this. Ty: Just like a man could
00:33:59.30\00:34:03.23
create a mechanical device like
an IPad and marry the thing,
00:34:03.23\00:34:08.20
or he could pursue a woman who
could say no, right? Jeffrey:
00:34:08.20\00:34:13.43
Right. Ty: He chooses the woman
because there is great potential
00:34:13.43\00:34:16.40
for a relationship to occur
and it's infinitely superior to
00:34:16.40\00:34:21.70
merely having a relationship
with a mechanical device that he
puts the information
00:34:21.70\00:34:25.30
into and then it spits it out
back to you. James: Go one step
00:34:25.30\00:34:28.20
further, he can't have a
relationship with a mechanical
00:34:28.20\00:34:30.46
device. It's impossible.
Jeffrey: That's right. That's
00:34:30.46\00:34:34.20
what I'm trying to say. Ty: And
that's what I love about your
point, and you said,
00:34:34.20\00:34:36.40
is there anything God can't
do and you pointed to the one,
00:34:36.40\00:34:39.03
God cannot lie, but I think
I mentioned this...and I don't
00:34:39.03\00:34:43.30
know where it is. David: God
cannot deny Himself, 2 Timothy
00:34:43.30\00:34:46.56
2:13. Ty: That is a cannot, not
a will not statement. Where is
00:34:46.56\00:34:50.33
it? David: I think it's
2 Timothy 2:13. Ty: So when
00:34:50.33\00:34:53.43
Scripture says God cannot deny
Himself, it's saying that God
cannot do contrary to
00:34:53.43\00:34:55.60
His nature, to His character.
God is a certain particular kind
00:34:55.60\00:35:02.60
of being. David: He is a
relational being. Ty: And He's
00:35:02.60\00:35:06.83
going to act in a certain way.
David: It is 2 Timothy 2:13. I
00:35:06.83\00:35:09.60
love that text. He cannot deny
Himself. That's your point. That
is your point, yes?
00:35:09.60\00:35:12.73
God is a relational being, He is
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, God
00:35:12.73\00:35:16.33
is love so He is not going to
be satisfied with a relationship
00:35:16.33\00:35:19.30
with an IPad or puppet or
a marionette. God wants real
00:35:19.30\00:35:22.96
relationships with real people
and what our point here is, and
00:35:22.96\00:35:26.56
what Scripture says to us,
is that involves real risk.
00:35:26.56\00:35:29.83
Jeffrey: Couldn't have God made
a different world? Somebody said
00:35:29.83\00:35:35.53
that we are inclined to agree
with the risk God took. Anybody
00:35:35.53\00:35:39.70
who brings children into the
world is taking a risk. David:
00:35:39.70\00:35:43.33
Yes, of course. Jeffrey: But the
love, the potential for love,
and relationship is worth
00:35:43.33\00:35:46.73
the risk. David: Not just having
kids, getting married is a risk.
00:35:46.73\00:35:50.36
When you marry your spouse,
really, if you add up the sum
00:35:50.36\00:35:53.96
total about everything that is
true about your husband or your
00:35:53.96\00:35:56.83
wife, what percentage do
you know about them? I mean even
00:35:56.83\00:36:00.83
those who have gone through long
courtships, if you add up the
00:36:00.83\00:36:03.76
sum total, you probably know
what, four, five, ten percent at
00:36:03.76\00:36:06.33
the top? Ty: Not only do you not
know the vast majority of the
00:36:06.33\00:36:10.80
things that are true of
them, they're in a developmental
00:36:10.80\00:36:14.16
process themselves so
they're going to become, they're
00:36:14.16\00:36:17.66
gradually becoming, something
that they weren't when you
00:36:17.66\00:36:21.60
actually married. Jeffrey: And
you can't predict that. James:
00:36:21.60\00:36:24.60
And you're going to influence
that. Ty: That's right, you're
00:36:24.60\00:36:28.63
going to actually contribute.
Jeffrey: And you're going to
become something different just
00:36:28.63\00:36:32.43
by virtue of the relationship.
You can't predict who you're
00:36:32.43\00:36:37.76
going to become either. Ty: I
think your point is that
intuitively we all know the risk
00:36:37.76\00:36:43.83
is worth it. Jeffrey: Yes, we
agree with the risk. We may say
00:36:43.83\00:36:47.93
how dare you?
Ty: Yes, in the midst
00:36:47.93\00:36:49.96
of suffering, that's when we
become, that's when we question
00:36:49.96\00:36:53.03
it and wonder... James: It's
difficult. Ty: But when we're
00:36:53.03\00:36:56.60
thinking clearly and rationally
living our life out, we know
that the risk is worth
00:36:56.60\00:37:00.50
the potential for love. Jeffrey:
And nobody asks the question
00:37:00.50\00:37:04.43
when everything is nice
and dandy. David: There you go.
00:37:04.43\00:37:07.43
Jeffrey: In the midst of the
joy and the pleasure, no one is
00:37:07.43\00:37:12.46
questioning, why did God
make this world? David: Why
00:37:12.46\00:37:13.70
did God make such a beautiful
world? Jeffrey: Why did God
00:37:13.70\00:37:14.96
make this pleasure possible,
how dare Him? No one is saying
00:37:14.96\00:37:17.70
that, we only say that when
it gets sour. James: So, getting
00:37:17.70\00:37:21.23
back now to this conflict that
has created this diversion of
00:37:21.23\00:37:25.00
wills, I'm thinking about 2
Peter 3:9 where it says that God
00:37:25.00\00:37:28.93
is not willing that any would
perish but that all would come
00:37:28.93\00:37:32.96
to repentance. So there is a
conflict between wills. There is
a will that God has
00:37:32.96\00:37:36.96
for the world in creating the
world, and that will has given
00:37:36.96\00:37:41.03
us freedom. It's God's will that
we would be free. Love demands
00:37:41.03\00:37:49.20
that we would be free. His
character demands that we would
00:37:49.20\00:37:51.20
be free. But that has led to
a conflict because that freedom
00:37:51.20\00:37:54.23
has given us choice and left
God with a risk and we've bitten
00:37:54.23\00:37:57.83
into that. We have allowed our
choice to go into a different
00:37:57.83\00:38:01.73
direction than God's will. And
I like this verse because this
00:38:01.73\00:38:03.70
verse is directing us to God's
ultimate will for every human
being. When you look at it
00:38:03.70\00:38:07.70
and you stand around that pit
in World War II, when you look
00:38:07.70\00:38:09.20
at the sin and pain and
suffering in this world, when
00:38:09.20\00:38:13.50
you even look at some of things
that seem to be taking place in
00:38:13.50\00:38:17.70
the Bible, in the Old Testament
for example, if you put this
00:38:17.70\00:38:21.80
verse in front of every action
in front of every devastation...
00:38:21.80\00:38:25.90
David: tragedy. James: Yes, of
evil and experience of evil in
the world you realize
00:38:25.90\00:38:30.00
that God's will is diametrically
opposed to sin and suffering
00:38:30.00\00:38:34.06
and pain and evil. Ty: Yes.
One of my favorite verses in the
00:38:34.06\00:38:38.13
Bible, and I come back to it
over and over again is Isaiah
00:38:38.13\00:38:42.20
11:9 where God is basically
expressing His inmost heart
00:38:42.20\00:38:50.33
and He says basically,
this is what I envisioned
00:38:50.33\00:38:54.36
ultimately for the
world, they shall not hurt
00:38:54.36\00:38:58.50
nor destroy in all
My holy mountains, says
00:38:58.50\00:39:02.60
the Lord, the earth shall be
filled with the knowledge of the
00:39:02.60\00:39:06.70
Lord. That's the
concept that ultimately God is
00:39:06.70\00:39:10.80
diametrically opposed to
all suffering, destruction
00:39:10.80\00:39:14.86
and pain and ultimately that's
the kind of Universe He is
00:39:14.86\00:39:18.96
aiming for and the kind of
Universe that He will ultimately
00:39:18.96\00:39:23.00
have. We're going to take a
break, we have to take a break.
00:39:23.00\00:39:24.16
David: I have something when we
come back right on that point.
00:39:24.16\00:39:25.50
Ty: It's on you, David. So,
we'll come right back and we
00:39:25.50\00:39:28.10
have something special to offer
right now that I think people
00:39:28.10\00:39:30.63
are going to
enjoy. David: Excellent.
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David: We finished the last
part of the conversation we just
00:40:37.70\00:40:39.76
finished, Ty, with you saying
from Isaiah 11 that God's will
00:40:39.76\00:40:42.86
is that they would not
hurt or destroy in all My holy
00:40:42.86\00:40:46.43
mountains. And, here's a kind of
powerful thing that is very much
00:40:46.43\00:40:47.83
in keeping with what we've been
talking about and that is that
00:40:47.83\00:40:50.93
God is going to get His will
ultimately. Because that is one
00:40:50.93\00:40:54.53
of the things that we've talked
about.That is the whole sort of
00:40:54.53\00:40:58.36
directionality of Scripture.
We've talked about how Scripture
00:40:58.36\00:41:02.36
opens in Eden, a perfect God in
perfect communion with a perfect
00:41:02.36\00:41:04.36
people in a perfect environment
in perfect connection and the
00:41:04.36\00:41:06.90
Bible closes, Revelation 21 and
22, the very same way, perfect
00:41:06.90\00:41:09.80
God, perfect communion,
perfect people and a perfect
00:41:09.80\00:41:16.16
environment. And, everything in
between is God seeking to align
00:41:16.16\00:41:21.36
our rebellious will with His
perfect will. So I say it this
way, this world that we
00:41:21.36\00:41:30.63
live in right now with rape and
genocide and murder and gossip
00:41:30.63\00:41:34.76
and spousal abuse and drunk
drivers and all of that, this
00:41:34.76\00:41:36.76
world right here with its
hospitals and police cars is not
00:41:36.76\00:41:42.90
the most perfect world possible.
We can all imagine a better
00:41:42.90\00:41:44.96
world, but this world that
we live in right now is the way
00:41:44.96\00:41:51.06
to the most perfect world
possible. God is giving us
00:41:51.06\00:41:55.16
opportunity to grow, to align
our will either with His will or
contrary to His will
00:41:55.16\00:41:59.20
and those...I love what you said
in that first session there,
00:41:59.20\00:42:00.63
Ty,...at the end people will not
sin, will not be in rebellion.
00:42:00.63\00:42:07.43
Not because they could
not, but because they would not.
00:42:07.43\00:42:11.46
They have fallen so in
love with Christ and they have
00:42:11.46\00:42:13.50
responded to the love that
Christ has for them, that these
00:42:13.50\00:42:15.56
people are sold out
to God and His plan.
00:42:15.56\00:42:19.63
Ty: So, could I complete
your opening sentence by saying,
00:42:19.63\00:42:23.66
what did you say?
God's will ultimately
00:42:23.66\00:42:27.73
will be fulfilled,
or God is going to get
00:42:27.73\00:42:31.83
what He wants, and could I
finish that by saying, God is
00:42:31.83\00:42:35.86
going to get what He wants and
00:42:35.86\00:42:39.96
we, at that point,
will want what He wants.
00:42:39.96\00:42:44.06
David: That's right, of course.
Ty: in other words, He's going
00:42:44.06\00:42:45.46
to maneuver the great
controversy with love as the
00:42:45.46\00:42:48.66
primary active agent so that He
wins, rather than forces, rather
00:42:48.66\00:42:56.26
than manipulates. He wins us
back to Him. Jeffrey: He woos
00:42:56.26\00:42:57.50
us. Ty: He woos us and He wins
us and He draws us back to Him
00:42:57.50\00:43:00.90
so that ultimately the Universe
is free of sin and suffering
00:43:00.90\00:43:04.66
and we want it that way, too.
James: Sure. Jeffrey: Because
00:43:04.66\00:43:07.60
that's the greatest guarantee,
that's when it's actually safe.
00:43:07.60\00:43:12.53
Ty: Yes, when it's our will
as well as God's will. Jeffrey:
00:43:12.53\00:43:14.56
When it's our will, that's when
it's actually safe. David: I'll
00:43:14.56\00:43:16.10
just drop this scripture in
the middle of this conversation,
00:43:16.10\00:43:17.73
Jeremiah 31:3, "The Lord has
appeared of old to me, saying:
00:43:17.73\00:43:21.20
yes, I have loved you with
everlasting love; therefore with
00:43:21.20\00:43:25.03
lovingkindness I have," forced
you? I have coerced you? No, "I
00:43:25.03\00:43:27.03
have drawn you." Ty: Drawn you.
James: And one other scripture,
00:43:27.03\00:43:31.03
John 12:32, "And I,"
Jesus says, going to the cross,
00:43:31.03\00:43:37.03
"if I be lifted up from the
earth, will draw all unto Me."
00:43:37.03\00:43:41.03
David: Draw, to woo,
to invite, to encourage.
00:43:41.03\00:43:45.10
Ty: Guys, this is very close
to home for me, as you know,
00:43:45.10\00:43:49.16
because this very
subject we're talking about
00:43:49.16\00:43:53.30
was the big
intellectual hurdle that was
00:43:53.30\00:43:57.36
in my way as a teenager.
00:43:57.36\00:44:01.53
When I did come to the
Lord finally, there was a
00:44:01.53\00:44:05.56
big wall in my way. And, that
wall was that I had grown up
00:44:05.56\00:44:09.63
witnessing a lot of
suffering so I had one
00:44:09.63\00:44:13.73
big question when I
started hearing, there is a God,
00:44:13.73\00:44:15.73
and God loves people etc.
To my mind, because I lacked
00:44:15.73\00:44:18.80
perspective, that sounded like
nonsense. I thought, How could
00:44:18.80\00:44:22.36
God love anybody with all this
stuff going on in the world?
00:44:22.36\00:44:26.16
And, there were two religious
people that approached me, well,
00:44:26.16\00:44:30.10
there were more but these
two in particular, and both were
00:44:30.10\00:44:34.13
pastors, interestingly, one of
them approached me and tried to
00:44:34.13\00:44:38.16
quote, unquote witness to
me as a teenage boy. And when I
00:44:38.16\00:44:42.20
told him I just can't believe in
God because, you know, there is
00:44:42.20\00:44:46.30
just so much suffering in the
world and there is so much evil,
00:44:46.30\00:44:50.56
that there couldn't possibly
be a God and if He does exist,
00:44:50.56\00:44:52.66
he must just be a monster. I
mean, there's just no way. And
00:44:52.66\00:44:57.80
his approach was, You're
disrespectful young man, and the
00:44:57.80\00:45:02.46
Bible says God exists, therefore
you need to believe it, quote,
00:45:02.46\00:45:06.86
quote, quote, just submit. And I
just couldn't process it. Then I
00:45:06.86\00:45:15.26
met another guy, also a pastor,
who came to me, and he quote,
00:45:15.26\00:45:19.36
unquote was witnessing to
me at my mom's bidding and
00:45:19.36\00:45:23.50
I told him,
Listen, 2+2=4, not 56
00:45:23.50\00:45:27.56
and this God is love idea
doesn't match up with what I see
00:45:27.56\00:45:29.60
going on in the world, there
just no way that it's true. I'm
00:45:29.60\00:45:35.66
not even God, and I don't claim
to love everybody like you say
00:45:35.66\00:45:37.70
He does but I wouldn't let
people starve to death if I
00:45:37.70\00:45:40.76
could feed them and I wouldn't
let people beat up innocent
00:45:40.76\00:45:44.30
women, and...so... no, no, no.
And rather than say, Well you
00:45:44.30\00:45:48.10
should believe it because the
Bible says you should believe
it, he knew that the
00:45:48.10\00:45:52.06
Bible meant nothing to me
because I'd never even seen
00:45:52.06\00:45:56.06
the thing, he...his eyes teared
up. And he said, You know,
00:45:56.06\00:46:04.20
you're right, and I
don't know how or why or
00:46:04.20\00:46:08.30
whatever. But I just
want to challenge you
00:46:08.30\00:46:12.36
to consider something. He told
me to read something. I said,
00:46:12.36\00:46:16.36
Alright. So I read it and the
idea was so simple and we've
talked about it here.
00:46:16.36\00:46:20.26
It was a chapter in a
book called 'Patriarchs and
00:46:20.26\00:46:24.30
Prophets.' The first chapter
in that book is called, 'Why was
00:46:24.30\00:46:26.33
sin permitted?' It's answering
the question that we're talking
about. The first three
00:46:26.33\00:46:29.36
words of the chapter are, God is
love and I just kind of rolled
00:46:29.36\00:46:30.83
my eyes. David: I just read that
this morning, I just read the
00:46:30.83\00:46:33.83
first chapter of 'Patriarchs
and Prophets,' just by chance.
00:46:33.83\00:46:37.43
Ty: And I didn't understand 80%
of what was there. I was only
00:46:37.43\00:46:41.26
18 years old, I didn't know
the language, but here's what
00:46:41.26\00:46:45.20
immerged from it, the basic
idea, God is love, and then the
00:46:45.20\00:46:49.23
chapter went on to basically
say, therefore there is freedom.
00:46:49.23\00:46:53.23
So that basic idea was the point
of my conversion. That's when I
said, Wait a minute,
00:46:53.23\00:46:57.30
I've been looking at this all
wrong. I thought if God exists,
00:46:57.30\00:47:01.46
He would use His power to...
James: to control. Ty: basically
just control people
00:47:01.46\00:47:05.50
and make sure nobody does
anything wrong because here's
00:47:05.50\00:47:09.60
all this bad stuff and He should
just... I wanted a Rambo kind of
00:47:09.60\00:47:11.13
God, you know, just come
down and lay waste, you know mow
00:47:11.13\00:47:14.46
people down with machine
guns or the God-zap button or
00:47:14.46\00:47:18.16
something. But that chapter
said, the kind of God that God
00:47:18.16\00:47:22.06
is, is a God who is love
and love requires freedom and
00:47:22.06\00:47:26.03
freedom has a risk factor. And
that's what we've developed so
far, love, freedom,
00:47:26.03\00:47:30.03
risk, but there's more to it
than that. David: The next step
00:47:30.03\00:47:38.16
in the equation is that risk,
the moment that you have risk
means that you have
00:47:38.16\00:47:42.20
a morally superior or a
morally inferior choice.
00:47:42.20\00:47:46.30
So take the one in the Garden
of Eden: here's Adam, he can
00:47:46.30\00:47:50.40
choose to be loyal to God and
00:47:50.40\00:47:54.43
not partake of the tree of
knowledge of good and evil or he
00:47:54.43\00:47:58.53
can choose to. So now Adam is
faced with a legitimate,
genuine, moral choice.
00:47:58.53\00:48:02.70
One is the superior
moral choice, to align yourself
00:48:02.70\00:48:06.76
with God's will, the other
is the inferior. So now Adam is
00:48:06.76\00:48:10.83
under a solemn responsibility.
He's under responsibility.
00:48:10.83\00:48:14.86
When you hand your keys to
your teenager for the first time
00:48:14.86\00:48:18.93
you are giving freedom,
which involves risk, and they
00:48:18.93\00:48:23.03
now they have a responsibility
to use the freedom that you have
00:48:23.03\00:48:25.03
entrusted them with in the
right way. Ty: Responsibility.
00:48:25.03\00:48:27.80
David: Responsibility. So,
we would say it like this, love
00:48:27.80\00:48:31.20
requires freedom, freedom
involves risk, and risk entails
00:48:31.20\00:48:34.96
responsibility. Ty: Yes, and, it
goes one step further, because
00:48:34.96\00:48:40.86
you said that there are moral
choices, the superior moral
00:48:40.86\00:48:43.36
choices that could be made when
you have freedom and the
inferior or even just
00:48:43.36\00:48:46.26
blatantly wrong moral choices
that could be made. But then
00:48:46.26\00:48:52.66
you realize that love,
freedom, risk, responsibility,
00:48:52.66\00:48:57.86
is the only way to moral
development. That's the only
00:48:57.86\00:49:02.56
way for a person to
engage in a process of becoming
00:49:02.56\00:49:11.23
what God intends for
people to become. You grow
00:49:11.23\00:49:15.26
because you exercise
your freedom responsibly.
00:49:15.26\00:49:19.33
Jeffrey: You know, I was
thinking of Genesis 3 and just
00:49:19.33\00:49:23.43
trying to eavesdrop, you
know, just image yourself hiding
00:49:23.43\00:49:27.46
behind some tree watching Adam
and Eve and as they are right on
00:49:27.46\00:49:31.56
the tree there and Eve is
grabbing the fruit, and you just
00:49:31.56\00:49:35.70
yell, NOO! Put that
down!! But God doesn't.
00:49:35.70\00:49:39.73
God's arm doesn't just
appear from the bush and go...
00:49:39.73\00:49:43.83
"What do you think you're
doing?" It's almost like God,
00:49:43.83\00:49:47.93
He's just 'dying' in
the bushes, you know,
00:49:47.93\00:49:52.00
He's wanting to scream but
He can't because the only way
00:49:52.00\00:49:56.10
as you said, the only way that
this beautiful new race that God
00:49:56.10\00:50:00.13
is creating can develop into
what they were created to be is
00:50:00.13\00:50:02.16
for God to allow them
to make that decision.
00:50:02.16\00:50:08.26
It's a necessity. I love that.
David: Jeffrey, in an earlier
00:50:08.26\00:50:12.30
conversation, you
took us to Isaiah 43:7,
00:50:12.30\00:50:16.36
"Whom I have created for My
glory." The only way for us to
00:50:16.36\00:50:18.36
become like God in His
character, in His goodness, in
00:50:18.36\00:50:21.40
His love is for us to freely
do so. Ty: Yes. David: For us to
00:50:21.40\00:50:28.56
freely do so. David: So I love
what you are saying here, love
00:50:28.56\00:50:32.70
gives way to freedom, freedom
to risk, risk to responsibility,
00:50:32.70\00:50:34.73
and responsibility to growth.
Going back to the illustration
00:50:34.73\00:50:37.76
of the teenager, if that
teenager makes good choices and
00:50:37.76\00:50:41.33
responsible choices with the
car, then he or she has become a
00:50:41.33\00:50:45.16
better person, has become more
moral by aligning his or her
00:50:45.16\00:50:49.13
will with the appropriate choice
in this circumstance. That's
00:50:49.13\00:50:53.10
just an easy one for us to get
our hands on. But as he or she
00:50:53.10\00:50:57.13
grows morally, making those
better and better choices, then
00:50:57.13\00:51:01.23
trust increases and they are,
this is the key, becoming with
00:51:01.23\00:51:05.30
each new decision, a slightly
different person than they were
before they made that decision.
00:51:05.30\00:51:08.33
Ty: That's right. Jeffrey:
That's deep. Do you think that
00:51:08.33\00:51:13.40
that the questions
that God poses in Genesis 3,
00:51:13.40\00:51:17.50
I mean first of all, why
is He even asking questions?
00:51:17.50\00:51:19.53
Adam, where are you? I've
always asked, Did God not know?
00:51:19.53\00:51:22.60
Did He just wake up from a nap?
Ty: He could've just appeared
00:51:22.60\00:51:24.36
right behind Him and said, Boo!
Jeffrey: Yes, Adam where are
00:51:24.36\00:51:28.10
you? Adam? Adam? Did God not
know? He knew, right? And then
00:51:28.10\00:51:33.80
He says, Did you
eat from that tree?
00:51:33.80\00:51:37.86
Did God know whether he
ate or not? David: Of course.
00:51:37.86\00:51:39.93
Jeffrey: It's almost like He's
asking the questions in order
00:51:39.93\00:51:43.00
for Adam and Eve to process
the person they've just become
00:51:43.00\00:51:46.56
after their morally inferior
decision. I think it's powerful.
00:51:46.56\00:51:50.40
David: It's the mirror. Jeffrey:
And could it be that from then
00:51:50.40\00:51:54.36
on, the story of Scripture you
were talking about Eden to Eden,
00:51:54.36\00:51:58.36
is this prolonged story of God
trying to confront us and get us
00:51:58.36\00:52:02.46
to process who
have you become? Where
00:52:02.46\00:52:10.56
are you? Not geographically,
but where are you in your soul?
00:52:10.56\00:52:14.60
What are you? What have
you become? I think that
00:52:14.60\00:52:20.70
there's something there in
the question. David: When Cain
00:52:20.70\00:52:22.73
murders Abel, Where is your
brother? David: He's putting
00:52:22.73\00:52:24.00
the mirror up. Jeffrey: He's
constantly asking questions.
00:52:24.00\00:52:26.23
None of which He did not have
the answer for. James: And He's
00:52:26.23\00:52:29.53
constantly bringing us to
a higher level of character
00:52:29.53\00:52:32.20
development experience. You even
see this in the book of Job. Job
00:52:32.20\00:52:36.86
is revealed in Job chapter 1 as
a perfect person. He's perfect
00:52:36.86\00:52:40.96
in that he wakes up early in
the morning and he prays for his
00:52:40.96\00:52:45.06
kids, not because they're good
kids but because he's afraid
00:52:45.06\00:52:47.10
they are not. And he's giving
himself, he's giving his time
00:52:47.10\00:52:48.46
for his kids. He's praying for
them, and of course, which one
00:52:48.46\00:52:50.66
of us as parents wouldn't want
to be praying for our children?
00:52:50.66\00:52:53.96
But then he goes through this
devastating experience, I mean
00:52:53.96\00:52:57.66
evil just comes into his life
in a way that is beyond anything
00:52:57.66\00:52:59.10
that I've experienced, I
can't even comprehend it. David:
00:52:59.10\00:53:02.30
Beyond what I've experienced.
James: And we see the curtain
00:53:02.30\00:53:04.90
drawn back and we
see that Satan is the one
00:53:04.90\00:53:09.46
that's behind all of this, that
God has allowed this in a sense,
00:53:09.46\00:53:13.53
but Job really struggles. First
his wife struggles, but then he
00:53:13.53\00:53:15.60
really struggles with all
of this. And, his friends come,
00:53:15.60\00:53:17.63
they try to comfort him
but then they start talking,
00:53:17.63\00:53:21.66
and they go through this
whole experience where Job
00:53:21.66\00:53:23.70
finally says, You guys are
miserable comforters, you're
00:53:23.70\00:53:24.96
worthless physicians, just
be quiet. Ty: And their talking
00:53:24.96\00:53:27.30
is full of theology, by the way.
James: Yes, it is, about God.
00:53:27.30\00:53:30.56
Theodicy,wrong theodicy. Then,
God shows up. God basically
00:53:30.56\00:53:34.26
says to Job, Job, if you think
that you have a better way, if
00:53:34.26\00:53:38.13
you could just get My power,
My glory and you would just wipe
00:53:38.13\00:53:41.13
everyone out, then I would
confess that you could save
00:53:41.13\00:53:46.10
yourself but I have this process
that I'm working through, that
00:53:46.10\00:53:48.13
we've been describing and
talking about it here, and this
process has a way of
00:53:48.13\00:53:51.20
developing even your character.
And Job sees it. He sees it
00:53:51.20\00:53:54.76
fully. And when he's done, when
God is finished with him, this
00:53:54.76\00:53:58.60
is what happens, in Job 42:10,
Job comes to the place where
00:53:58.60\00:54:02.60
he's not only praying for his
family but he's praying for his
00:54:02.60\00:54:06.56
miserable comforter, worthless
physician friends. God says,
00:54:06.56\00:54:10.66
to his friends, he rebukes them
and he says, Now I want you to
00:54:10.66\00:54:14.73
go because Job is going to pray
for you. The guy that doesn't
00:54:14.73\00:54:18.80
want to hear from you, doesn't
want to talk to you, but he's
00:54:18.80\00:54:20.36
going to pray for you.
David: Real quick, one time
00:54:20.36\00:54:22.00
I was asking my kids,
giving them little Bible
00:54:22.00\00:54:25.53
tests like, who was
married to Abraham, and who was
00:54:25.53\00:54:28.30
the son of Isaac, and one of the
trivia questions I asked them
00:54:28.30\00:54:35.06
was how many friends did Job
have? And my oldest said, None.
00:54:35.06\00:54:37.13
All: (laughter) Ty: I
think it's fascinating too,
00:54:37.13\00:54:40.16
James, that when you go through
the story of Job and you come
00:54:40.16\00:54:43.73
to the conclusion and
God says, Listen Job, if
00:54:43.73\00:54:51.43
you had my power
and you were able
00:54:51.43\00:54:55.46
to deal with the evil and
the suffering that you're going
00:54:55.46\00:54:57.53
through in the world I'm sure
you think you have a better way,
00:54:57.53\00:55:00.63
but I'm going through a process.
One of the things that God
00:55:00.63\00:55:04.16
divulges is when He says to
Job, Job, I'm dealing with a
00:55:04.16\00:55:08.53
formidable enemy that you can't
comprehend or deal with. If you
00:55:08.53\00:55:12.73
tried to draw him out with a
fishing line, you'd never want
00:55:12.73\00:55:16.83
to encounter him again. I'm
dealing with a cosmic enemy that
00:55:16.83\00:55:23.13
is symbolized by Leviathan, and
this loops back to chapters 1
00:55:23.13\00:55:25.73
and 2, where on one tier
of the story line, Job doesn't
00:55:25.73\00:55:28.16
know what is going on, there
was a day when the sons of God
00:55:28.16\00:55:30.53
presented themselves before the
Lord and Satan came among them.
00:55:30.53\00:55:35.06
So God is looping back and He's
telling Job, Listen, I'm dealing
00:55:35.06\00:55:41.66
with a great controversy between
good and evil that you can't
00:55:41.66\00:55:43.66
process or deal with and I'm
dealing with it in the way, the
00:55:43.66\00:55:46.70
only way, it can be dealt
with to get the final, ultimate
00:55:46.70\00:55:53.83
outcome that all of us will
want. James: Yes, and in fact,
the Bible it goes from
00:55:53.83\00:55:57.83
Leviathan in Job to the serpent
in Revelation chapter 12,
00:55:57.83\00:56:01.96
who is Satan the
accuser of the brethren.
00:56:01.96\00:56:06.06
Jeffrey: I love in
the end of Job, he says,
00:56:06.06\00:56:10.06
I have uttered what
I did not understand.
00:56:10.06\00:56:15.53
Oh, so you have better ideas.
Okay, here's the God label,
00:56:15.53\00:56:19.56
you go ahead and run
the Universe and show me how
00:56:19.56\00:56:21.63
it's done. And, then Job says,
I have uttered what I did not
00:56:21.63\00:56:24.70
understand. Things too wonderful
for me, which I did not know.
00:56:24.70\00:56:28.26
So, as you said, in the end he
acknowledges. All the question
00:56:28.26\00:56:32.06
marks are worth leaving
there, God is in control. David:
00:56:32.06\00:56:34.00
Jeffrey started the
conversation, the second
conversation with that great
00:56:34.00\00:56:36.00
quotation from C.S. Lewis about
sawing off the branch that we
00:56:36.00\00:56:39.96
are sitting on and that God
apparently thought it was worth
00:56:39.96\00:56:44.00
the risk. And right now, it's
very hard for me to see, with
all the pain, suffering,
00:56:44.00\00:56:52.03
sickness, death and disease in
the world that it is worth the
00:56:52.03\00:56:54.06
risk, but I believe that it must
be because I'm trusting God.
00:56:54.06\00:56:55.60
If God is going to get this
world to the place where there
00:56:55.60\00:56:58.93
are real relationships with real
people, He has to go through
00:56:58.93\00:57:04.30
the pathway of real risk
and real moral growth and
00:57:04.30\00:57:08.36
responsibility, and that's
the world that we live in. The
00:57:08.36\00:57:12.50
question, you know there's the
big question about theodicy, but
00:57:12.50\00:57:13.76
at the end of the day I have to
sleep in my own bed, I have to
00:57:13.76\00:57:15.03
live in my own living room, I
have to drive my own car, how do
00:57:15.03\00:57:17.80
I use my freedom? Jeffrey: What
about the thing about that God
00:57:17.80\00:57:19.03
experiences the
pain more than we do?
00:57:19.03\00:57:24.70
Ty: Of course. David: I heard
somebody say, Did you go to
00:57:24.70\00:57:26.70
a funeral yesterday? And, you're
sad about it? Well, God went
00:57:26.70\00:57:29.76
to every funeral yesterday. Ty:
Guys, I guess the bottom line
00:57:29.76\00:57:33.36
is that God is love, and
because God is love He created
00:57:33.36\00:57:41.00
us with the capacity to love,
and that capacity is called
00:57:41.00\00:57:45.10
freedom. It's
risky, but ultimately
00:57:45.10\00:57:49.10
God regards it worth
the risk, and ultimately
00:57:49.10\00:57:53.16
when we're 5 billion
years into the future
00:57:53.16\00:57:57.16
with no more sin or suffering,
no evil in the Universe,
00:57:57.16\00:58:01.26
I think we can safely say
that looking back from eternity
00:58:01.26\00:58:03.30
future to the suffering
that we've known in this life
00:58:03.30\00:58:09.46
as somebody said, it'll be like
looking back on one bad night
00:58:09.46\00:58:11.46
in a bad hotel. I
mean, God is love and
00:58:11.46\00:58:17.56
ultimately He is going to
create a Universe in which love
00:58:17.56\00:58:21.66
prevails. James: Amen.
Looking forward to that day.
00:58:21.66\00:58:25.70
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