Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000005
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00:01 [Music]
00:10 [Music] 00:21 I love the fact that we're studying the bible around 00:24 the table. 00:25 This is exactly what needs to be happening all over the place 00:28 people sitting around the table having a conversation about the 00:30 things that really matter. 00:32 We've come from some really, really simple but deep topics. 00:36 And we're going to continue on now in the logical trajectory of 00:40 where we've come from. 00:42 We are now going to consider what we're calling players and 00:47 stakes. 00:48 The players and the stakes of the great controversy between 00:51 good and evil; the Great War; the cosmic battle between good 00:53 and evil. 00:55 And the reason we're calling this players and stakes is 00:57 because there are key individuals that are involved in 01:04 the war, in the great controversy between good and 01:06 evil. 01:08 So let's just take this in three parts, alright. 01:10 What do you guys think of this? 01:11 Number one let's talk about the fact that we live in an 01:16 inhabited universe. 01:18 We're not alone as human beings. 01:20 We'll flush that out more as we go. 01:22 We're not alone in the universe. 01:24 Number two we're going to talk about Lucifer specifically and 01:30 the angelic order. 01:31 I just said we're not alone in the universe. 01:33 There are other civilizations; I guess you could say other actual 01:38 communities of beings in the universe beside human beings. 01:42 And one of those communities' angels and Lucifer whom we're 01:47 going to get a character profile of, a personality profile of is 01:50 key in the controversy. 01:52 And thirdly let's explore the fact that planet earth and the 01:57 human race is right in the cross hairs of the Great War between 02:02 good and evil. 02:03 That the great controversy is happening right here right now 02:07 on our planet, more specifically between our ears. 02:10 Right here on planet earth with the human race. 02:14 So let's go. 02:16 Inhabited universe what are we talking about here? 02:19 Does the bible actually teach that there are other orders of 02:23 created beings in the universe besides human beings? 02:27 >>The answer's yes obviously. 02:31 I mean I shouldn't say obviously but an answer to the question, 02:34 you're asking a yes or no question. 02:35 The answer is yes the bible does teach that that there is God. 02:39 There are human beings. 02:41 There are other; you said civilizations, but other orders 02:44 of being, other kinds of beings. 02:46 We don't, probably it would be very safe to say that what we 02:49 don't know about these beings is far greater than what we do know 02:53 about them. 02:54 But what we do know about them the bible does present a 02:56 reasonable picture so that we can kind of--we know what we're 02:58 dealing with. 03:00 We know what we're talking about. 03:02 And so, yeah. 03:03 >>Are we talking Star Wars? 03:05 Are we talking Star Trek? 03:07 Are we talking weird looking aliens? 03:10 That's not what we're saying is it? 03:11 What are we talking about when we say that we live in a 03:14 universe with other orders of beings? 03:16 >>Okay so let's just start right there when--the moment you start 03:18 talking about, you know physical appearance that's where 03:22 things--that gets into the category of things that I was 03:25 saying there. 03:26 We don't know is far greater than what we do know 03:27 >>Okay. 03:29 >>I've never personally seen an angel but amazingly--this might 03:31 sound crazy to like an atheist or to an agnostic who is 03:37 listening in. 03:38 I have great reason to believe that there are angels. 03:40 But if you said ok now sketch an ang--I would probably sketch 03:44 something that's like I imagined. 03:46 You know a Hollywood picture, television picture or a painting 03:49 of what an angel is supposed to look like. 03:52 >>Okay. 03:53 >>So as far as their physicality I don't, that's not even the 03:57 point. 03:58 But I think the real point here is what kind of beings are 04:01 these? 04:02 And they are revealed to us in scripture as being in a sense 04:04 very much like human beings. 04:06 In that they are volitional beings. 04:09 They make choices. 04:10 They are moral beings in that they can make right and wrong 04:12 choices. 04:13 And so in that sense they're very much like us. 04:17 >>Okay first let's just establish that that other orders 04:18 of beings do exist. 04:22 Bring scripture to the table. 04:24 I'll bring one. 04:25 Okay you got one. 04:27 >>Hebrews 2 this is one we've been looking at quite a bit. 04:28 >>You love Hebrews it's always in Hebrews. 04:31 >> It's a relational book. 04:32 We're talking about relationships here. 04:34 Hebrews chapter 2 is a summary, if you will, of the creation, 04:37 the creation act and the fall. 04:39 >>I was already there. 04:41 >>And in Hebrews chapter 2 we looked at this already but we'll 04:43 just look at it again in verse 7. 04:45 It's talking about verse 6 man you are mindful of him. 04:48 What is he that you made him that you take care of him? 04:51 And then it says in verse 7 you have made him, that is man, 04:55 mankind a little lower than the angels. 04:57 So here is an order of beings that is described in Hebrews 05:01 chapter 2 in the context of creation. 05:04 Here's an order of beings that have been made higher than us. 05:08 In other words, we were made a little lower than the angels. 05:11 So there is an order of being, beings called angels that were, 05:14 occupied a position a little bit higher than us. 05:17 >>Okay I'll bring a scripture to the table then. 05:20 >>Before I can see you're in Job already. 05:21 I'm just gonna stay on the same page here in Hebrews chapter one 05:24 and I'm just going to read verse 14. 05:25 It says are they not all, they, angels, are the angels not all 05:29 ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will 05:33 inherit salvation? 05:34 So they're spiritual beings, spirit beings. 05:35 >>Okay, yeah, yeah. 05:38 And there in that scripture I'll just--before I go to the one 05:42 I've got here--that scripture actually says they're 05:44 interactive with the human realm. 05:46 Right? 05:47 'Cause it says there 05:52 >>They're ministers. 05:54 >>Sent forth, that's travel language. 05:56 They live somewhere else then planet earth as their I guess 05:57 you could say permanent address. 05:58 But their sent. 05:59 That means they come and they go right? 06:00 To be--to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation. 06:02 That means that they're actively engaged with the human race on 06:05 some level. 06:06 >>I like that. 06:07 >>Right? 06:08 Okay here's one I have to bring to the table. 06:09 This is Job 38 Job has been having his whole experience 06:13 which, which maybe we'll talk about later. 06:15 And then God is responding to Job who's now been, been just 06:20 really expressing how horrible his experience is and saying 06:24 basically God you know. 06:25 What's going on here? 06:26 Where are you? 06:28 So then God poses a question to Job okay. 06:30 He says in verse 4 where were you when I laid the foundations 06:35 of the earth? 06:36 This is Job 38 did I say what chapter? 06:38 >>Mhm. 06:39 >>Chapter 38 verse 4 where were you, Job, when I laid the 06:41 foundations of the earth? 06:43 Tell me if you have understanding? 06:45 That's verse 4 then God elaborates a little bit about 06:49 the creation of the earth. 06:50 And then he says in verse 7 when the morning stars sing together 06:54 and all the sons of God shouted for joy. 06:56 Okay so here's the question God is asking Job. 06:59 Job were you there when I laid the foundations of the earth? 07:03 When I created the earth? 07:04 When all the sons of God and the morning stars shouted for you? 07:07 So there's chronology here. 07:09 The chronology here is that when planet earth is created. 07:14 When planet earth is created there is already an order of 07:19 beings according to this that are witnessing the event. 07:21 So chronically if they're shouting for joy and singing 07:27 when earth and mankind is being made, they're witnessing it, if 07:32 they're singing about it. 07:33 So they already exist. 07:35 Now there are two orders of beings here, the morning stars 07:38 and the sons of God. 07:43 The morning stars are just a biblical metaphor in poetry for 07:45 angels. 07:46 Because according to Revelation 1 verse 20 and Revelation 12:7-9 07:49 right? 07:51 The angels are likened to stars. 07:53 So it's a cymbol for angels. 07:55 The stars in scripture are angels. 07:59 The angels are witnessing the creation of planet earth. 08:01 >>That doesn't, just to clarify, that doesn't mean that every 08:04 time we see the word star in the bible that that's necessarily an 08:07 angel. 08:08 >>Oh sometimes it means stars. 08:09 >> Yeah, Got it just I just want to--so we're clear on that. 08:14 But and that's not just in Revelation that's Isaiah too. 08:15 Isaiah 14 which we'll probably end up in later. 08:17 But morning star. 08:20 >>Every time Jeffrey uses the word hearts he's not necessarily 08:22 using it in the metaphoric sense with his romantic Latin self. 08:26 When he's talking about his love for Marianna, sometimes he might 08:29 be talking about the biological actual physical. 08:33 >>The cardiac muscle. 08:34 >>Yeah the cardiac muscle. 08:36 >>But mostly I refer to the romantic. 08:38 >>So stars are used to symbolize angels. 08:41 Okay, then there's the sons of God. 08:44 The sons of God are also, according to this scripture 08:48 verse 7. 08:49 They are witnessing the creation of planet earth and the human 08:51 race, right? 08:53 Who are the sons of God? 08:54 I'd like to suggest that the sons of God are the 08:56 representative heads of other worlds that God has made. 09:01 Now that's a mouth full and I can give you two pieces of 09:06 biblical evidence to demonstrate that. 09:08 Number one is the context of Job itself. 09:11 In chapters 1 and 2 there's a heavenly convention it's called. 09:16 And it says there was a day when the sons of God, that's the 09:21 language, came to present themselves before the Lord, and 09:24 Satan came also among them, right? 09:26 So the sons of God are coming. 09:28 They're traveling before the Lord for this heavenly congress 09:31 meeting of some kind alright. 09:32 They're called the sons of God. 09:35 Well who are they and why are they there? 09:36 Well in the context Satan came among them and the Lord said to 09:40 Satan from where, a point of origins question. 09:43 From where do you come? 09:44 And Satan said from earth. 09:46 So Satan is claiming to be representative of planet earth 09:50 and the human race, there's a lot there. 09:52 But these guys, these others are sons of God who are there to 09:56 represent other places in the universe that God has made with 10:00 rational volitional creatures. 10:02 Okay second biblical evidence is the genealogy in Luke chapter 3 10:10 so and so is the son of so and so. 10:12 So the son of so and so David the son of Jesse. 10:14 Jesse the son of Obed and it just keeps going back, back, 10:17 back until it finally says Adam the son of God. 10:21 So that language is indicating that in a primary sense, in a 10:26 primary sense Adam was the son of God. 10:29 We're sons and daughters of God, of course, all of us as human 10:32 beings on a secondary sense by procreation 10:34 But here's the point Adam was the son of God and the primary 10:37 sense that he did not have a human mom or dad. 10:40 He was the first and therefore the head of the human race. 10:43 Right, are you with me on that? 10:46 >>Totally. 10:47 >>So then the sons of God came to present themselves before the 10:49 Lord. 10:50 We can deduce that these are people traveling to meet with 10:54 the Lord who are representatives of other worlds God has made. 10:58 Okay so. 10:59 >I think that's what I like all of that and basically much of 11:03 what you're saying there strongly suggests that the, the 11:06 angelic beings are an organized group. 11:09 They're sent forth. 11:10 They're at a congress. 11:12 They're assembling. 11:13 There's' all these reasons to believe that they're organized 11:17 and that leads me to a couple of scriptures. 11:18 You asked us to bring some scriptures to the table. 11:20 One is where Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane and Peter goes to 11:23 cut off the ear of the people that have come to arrest or the 11:27 head probably, but he misses. 11:29 The--those that have come to arrest Jesus and Jesus says I'm 11:32 in Matthew 26 verse 53 He says do you not think that I can now 11:37 pray to my father and he would provide me with more than 12 11:42 legions of angels. 11:43 So now this tells us a lot about the angels. 11:46 But one of them is that they're organized and they're under the 11:49 direction of God. 11:50 Now then sort of couple that with a text in First 11:53 Thessalonians chapter 4 where Paul refers to the voice of the 11:58 Arc angel. 12:00 Right and Arc here meaning the first or the one who's over. 12:04 So we have this sort of orderly picture. 12:09 This organized picture of these beings. 12:11 I think civilization, earlier your used the word civilization. 12:13 I think that's a very good word because it's an organized 12:17 assembly of other worldly beings, spiritual beings. 12:20 >>In our last conversation we were talking about the garden 12:23 and it seems that the early, I don't know if I'm overstating 12:27 this but one of the earliest statements about the angels is 12:32 right there in Genesis. 12:33 And it's in the context of the garden and the fall. 12:37 We were just talking about the fall in our previous 12:39 conversation. 12:40 And at the very close of chapter 3 there's, there's an angelic 12:45 order there that's involved with the affairs of humanity. 12:48 And it says there in verse 24 that God drove out the man, 12:51 speaking of Adam and Eve from the garden and he placed 12:55 Cherubim. 12:58 He placed Cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden and a 13:01 flaming sword which turned every way to guard the way to the tree 13:08 of life. 13:09 So at the fall of man the angelic order is present. 13:13 It's also present there. 13:15 And it's somehow involved in the affairs of humanity and 13:18 obviously interested in the fall of man. 13:23 >>You know I really love this because in Matthew chapter 18 13:25 which is, which is just picking up where you're leaving off. 13:29 In Matthew 18 Jesus is talking about us and specifically about 13:33 little children, little ones, little ones. 13:35 And as he's talking about little ones and how we interact with 13:40 those who are maybe not as strong as us. 13:44 He describes how they are watched over by these angelic 13:49 beings. 13:50 So they're not just guarding this garden but they're actually 13:52 guarding us. 13:53 They're protecting us. 13:54 In verse 10 he says take heed that you do not despise one of 13:57 these little ones. 13:58 For I say to you that in heaven they're angels. 14:03 So all these little ones have angels. 14:04 >>Possessive. 14:06 >> Their angels, their angels. 14:07 >>That's where we get the idea of a guardian angel. 14:08 >>Guardian angel. 14:09 Their angels always see the face of my father who is in heaven. 14:13 So there again you have that connection. 14:15 You have the connection of the angels with God the organization 14:18 connection there. 14:19 And then again you have that transition from God and the 14:24 order to us. 14:25 Not just to . 14:27 >>That is so good. 14:28 >>One of us but there, to the plural, to all of us. 14:29 All of us have angels that--and Jesus says be careful because 14:31 these angels are continually guarding these little ones, 14:36 continually watching over these little ones. 14:37 >>So there's something to this whole guardian angel thing. 14:39 >>It's biblical. 14:40 >>There's something to that. 14:41 It's powerful and, and Peter, you'll remember this text gives 14:45 this really powerful picture. 14:47 I'm in First Peter chapter 1 and you remember that verse 12 and 14:53 I'll just read the last part there just for the sake of 14:56 brevity here. 14:57 But it says that the angels desire to look into. 15:00 >>yea. 15:02 >>speaking of the salvation. 15:04 >>It's talking about the condition of humanity and God's 15:07 plan of restoration. 15:09 This whole process of the gospel and of the story of redemption 15:13 and how the angels desire to look into it. 15:17 So you were just saying that you have angels that are sent to 15:19 guard. 15:21 So you have this beautiful picture that--and I love what 15:23 you said we are not alone. 15:24 And not only are we not alone. 15:25 >>They're invested. 15:26 >>They're invested in this because after all I think we'll 15:29 undeveloped this. 15:32 This thing went down in their back yard. 15:33 >>And it didn't just go down in their back yard. 15:35 It went down in their family. 15:36 Because we've been talking, you know, a guardian angel, that's 15:39 positive. 15:41 And the angels that were there to guard. 15:42 But every one of the--not everyone but so many of these 15:45 texts that Job text. 15:46 Even the text I quoted don't you think that he could send his 15:48 angels to protect assume a conflict. 15:51 All of these texts that we're quoting are set against the 15:55 background of a conflict. 15:56 And I just want to read a verse here that will sort of set that 15:59 up. 16:01 This is in the book of Revelation and it says chapter 16:02 12 verse 9 so the great dragon was cast out. 16:06 That serpent of old. 16:07 That's how we spent our last lesson was on the serpent in the 16:09 tree, he's cunning and he's subtle. 16:12 That serpent of old called the devil and Satan. 16:14 We're gonna talk about him in just a moment. 16:16 But look at this who deceives the whole world. 16:18 There's the deception. 16:20 There's the cleverness. 16:21 There's the subtlety. 16:22 He was cast to the earth and his angels were cast out with him. 16:27 So there is a civil war. 16:30 You say this happened in the back yard. 16:32 Indeed it happened not just in the back yard in terms of 16:34 territorial vicinity it happened in their family. 16:37 This is a civil war. 16:39 >>And it says his angels. 16:41 It's like whoa, whoa, whoa, since when does the dragon or 16:45 Satan have his own angels? 16:47 >>Those that are loyal to him. 16:48 >>So we thought that God created all the angels but now there 16:51 seems to be a transition of loyalty. 16:53 >>God did create all the angels. 16:54 >>Right, right, right. 16:55 >>He created them but check this out. 16:57 In Genesis chapter 2 one of the things--this was before the fall 17:01 Genesis 2. 17:02 One of the things that God said to Adam and Eve was to tend the 17:05 garden and keep it. 17:06 And the word there to keep in the Hebrew one of the meanings 17:09 is to guard it. 17:10 Right now if I said to you hey Jeffrey guard this. 17:15 You aut--what do you automatically assume. 17:17 >>Yeah it's an assumption there. 17:19 There's something to guard against. 17:20 >>Yeah against. 17:21 It says beware of dog. 17:23 That means there's something what? 17:24 >>Something hairy in there that you gotta watch out. 17:26 >>So if God says to Adam and Eve, this really gives us an 17:28 insight to the fact that the serpent didn't just show up in 17:30 the tree. 17:32 You know spontaneously, whoa, you know. 17:33 Rabbit out of a hat. 17:35 That they were told to be on the lookout for a deceiver, for an 17:39 enemy. 17:41 >>For a thief. 17:42 The bible says he's a thief. 17:44 >>A Thief. 17:45 A murderer that would come. 17:46 >>Guys we gotta take a break. 17:47 >>Awe. 17:49 >>We're coming back though. 17:50 This is good stuff. 17:51 The break we're gonna take though, this is pretty exciting 17:54 stuff. 17:56 We're producing some videos and Light Bearers is really 17:59 interested in communicating to the world at large. 18:04 And there's a project we're calling Digma.com. 18:08 And we just want people to understand what Digma.com is. 18:11 It's basically a building library of sharable videos. 18:15 You can literally click on any one of these short videos. 18:20 They're about 7 minutes long each. 18:22 You can click on any one of these videos and email it to a 18:25 friend, stimulate a conversation. 18:27 >>They're good. 18:28 >>With somebody. 18:29 And this is a building library. 18:30 They're right now I think about 10 or 12 of them at the website. 18:33 Something like that and then there are more that are being 18:36 produced and so we just want to share with people that this 18:40 resource is available. 18:42 And take a look. 18:45 >>Hi I'm Ty Gibson, welcome to digma.com. 18:49 I am so excited about this website because you're about to 18:54 discover a powerful new way to share life, transforming 18:58 messages and videos with your family, friends and anybody else 19:02 on the planet who has access to a computer. 19:04 Digma is a Greek word. 19:08 It basically means to show or to reveal something by means of a 19:12 pattern or an example of some kind. 19:14 It's the second half of the word paradigm from which we get the 19:19 English word paradigm as in paradigm shift. 19:22 And so what you're going to find at digma.com is a growing 19:26 library of short videos and transcripts dealing with 19:29 paradigms and fundamental questions. 19:31 What's the meaning of life? 19:33 What is our origin and destiny as human beings? 19:37 What happens when we die? 19:40 Does God exist or are we alone in this vast universe? 19:44 Why is there so much evil and suffering in our world? 19:48 An estimated 70 percent of Americans have a computer right 19:53 in their home and stay in touch with family and friends by 19:57 email. 19:58 And more than 400 million people are active on facebook. 20:01 And 5 million new users are signing up every week. 20:07 We are literally in the midst of a communications revolution of 20:12 massive proportion. 20:13 This is granting the gospel direct and easy access to 20:18 millions upon millions of homes and hearts. 20:22 And that's what digma.com is all about. 20:26 It's a tool for leading our family and friends on an 20:29 exciting paradigm shift by revealing the truth of God's 20:33 creative power and his incredibly beautiful character 20:38 in contrast to our world's popular misconceptions about who 20:43 God is. 20:45 >>I've just gotta say that I love those Digma videos. 20:55 >>I've just gotta say that I love those Digma videos. 21:09 I know that it's you on their Ty but it's a product of Light 21:13 Bearers ministry and I have showed those to so many people 21:17 in so many different contexts and settings and never have I 21:20 yet had a situation where people weren't like, well these 21:22 are--these are special. 21:25 So praise God for the wisdom that he's given you and the 21:28 resources he's given this ministry to do it. 21:30 >>yeah, yeah. 21:32 >>Now, now I want to get right back into our conversation here 21:35 'cause we were sort of transitioning from the first 21:37 part which was we're in an inhabited universe. 21:41 And now we're transitioning into sort of who is this Lucifer guy? 21:45 Who is this Satan guy that we keep sort of coming up against? 21:48 And let's talk about him. 21:52 But before we do I think what we're seeing scripture confirm 21:55 here is just a basic sense that most people have. 21:59 You go outside especially in a place that doesn't have a lot of 22:03 light pollution. 22:05 You know you go off in the wilderness and the woods or the 22:07 desert and you're away from lights. 22:09 And you look up and the sky is awesome. 22:10 I mean I was just recently in the outback of Australia. 22:12 We drove right down through the middle of Australia and the sky 22:16 there is amazing. 22:18 The stars are so thick that you feel like you could just almost 22:21 reach out and touch them. 22:23 And no one who has seen that can fail to think to themselves at 22:27 some level. 22:29 We can't be alone. 22:31 There has to be this too big, too grand. 22:35 There has to be something out there. 22:37 And scripture here is confirming this basic human sense and 22:40 intuition that we are not alone. 22:43 >>Yeah and the bible is also confirming because you've been 22:45 hinting at the existence to a dark side of all this. 22:49 The bible clearly communicates that God created everything good 22:53 and perfect. 22:56 But then there was, as you called a civil war. 22:58 There was a fracture in the angelic community. 23:01 The angels were all created good, holy, and beautiful with 23:05 the capacity to love. 23:08 Like God loves obviously. 23:09 The bible describes the angels as emotional beings at different 23:16 times. 23:17 >>Yeah because they experience joy. 23:18 >>They experience joy. 23:20 They rejoice the angels in heaven rejoice when one person 23:21 turns to the Lord, Luke chapter 15 tells us. 23:24 So the angels are very real. 23:26 But there's been a division among them according to various 23:29 scriptures. 23:31 Revelation 12 comes to mind. 23:33 >>We just read that one Revelations 12. 23:35 >>Yeah, so verse 7 says there was war in heaven. 23:37 War erupted in the heavenly realm. 23:41 >>The last place I would ever think of a war breaking out 23:44 would be heaven. 23:46 >>yeah, yeah and I think maybe the inhabitants of heaven, when 23:50 they witnessed the creation of humanity and saw this glorious 23:54 new thing that God had made. 23:56 They probably thought the same thing Jeffrey. 23:58 The last thing we will ever expect for there to be a war 24:02 between good and evil is on planet earth. 24:05 But the fact is God created these beings, angels, with free 24:11 will. 24:14 And so it happened. 24:15 In Ephesians we clearly have language in chapter 3 verse 10. 24:18 Here's the language I'm just quoting a part of the verse that 24:22 there are principalities and powers in the heavenly places or 24:26 the heavenly realm. 24:28 Okay, also again in chapter 6 it says we wrestle not against 24:33 flesh and blood but against principalities and powers 24:36 against the rulers of the darkness of this age, that is 24:40 this era in universal history. 24:43 Against spiritual hosts or groups of wickedness in the 24:48 heavenly realm. 24:49 So both of these scriptures according to Paul. 24:52 Paul's perspective is cosmic. 24:54 He sees that there is an intersection an inner 24:58 penetration between a heavenly realm and the earthly realm. 25:03 This scripture says that there are rulers and authorities, 25:06 principalities and powers. 25:08 Which implies what you were saying an orderly system of some 25:11 kind. 25:12 Even after the fall. 25:13 It's orderly because we're told in one of the gospels; I don't 25:16 know the verse off the top of my head that Beelzebub or Satan is 25:20 the ruler of the demons. 25:22 That means they're under his authority. 25:25 So scripture is clear. 25:27 The angels have experienced a division among themselves. 25:32 There is a great war that has erupted between angels. 25:38 And they have two different sides now among them. 25:41 Right? 25:44 That's clear in scripture. 25:45 The numbers aren't exact in scripture but we're told in 25:50 Revelation chapter 12 that approximately one-third of the 25:53 angels. 25:55 Well how many angels are there? 25:57 We don't know exactly. 25:58 But we have two scriptures that tell us that it's a sizable 26:00 number. 26:01 One is in Hebrews chapter 12 here's Paul's language and 26:05 innumerable company of angels. 26:07 Did I say the word innumerable like there were a lot of b's 26:13 there I thought. 26:16 An innumerable company of angels. 26:18 So there are a lot of them. 26:19 And Daniel chapter 7 says ten thousand times ten thousand. 26:23 >>And thousands of thousands. 26:24 >>Right. 26:25 So there are a lot of angels. 26:26 >>And that's referring to the angels that remained. 26:28 >>Oh good point. 26:30 >>On God's side meaning. 26:32 >>That there's. 26:34 >>That doesn't even factor in the third spoken of in 26:35 Revelation 12. 26:36 You follow what I'm saying? 26:37 >>Yep. 26:38 >>That means there was a lot in other words. 26:39 >>And here's the point of the thousands and thousands and ten 26:40 thousand times ten thousand. 26:41 The word million doesn't occur very much. 26:42 In fact, not at all, I think in the King James or maybe just 26:45 once. 26:46 In Hebrew speak when you wanted to say a really large number you 26:50 said a thousand. 26:52 If you wanted to say a really large number you'd say ten 26:54 thousand. 26:56 So to say a really, really large number would be thousands of 27:00 thousands. 27:01 And a huge number would be to say ten thousand times ten 27:03 thousand. 27:04 In other words you don't encounter billion, trillion, 27:06 quadrillion in scripture. 27:07 This is basically scripture--it's not saying a 27:09 hund--ten thousand times ten thousand is a hundred million. 27:12 Okay it's not saying there are a hundred million angels and then 27:14 a thousand times a thousand another million. 27:16 A hundred and one million. 27:17 No what its saying is there's and inum-- 27:19 >>multiplied millions of angels. 27:21 >>You got it. 27:22 >>Maybe even. 27:23 >>A large number. 27:25 >>billions. 27:26 >>Yeah perhaps. 27:27 >>there are billions of human beings and everyone has a 27:28 guardian angel according to Matthew 18:10 was it? 27:31 >>18:10. 27:32 >>Okay but hey I want 27:33 >>there are billions of human beings but there are millions 27:36 and billions that have already died. 27:38 So if angels--if those faithful angels have not experienced 27:41 death. 27:42 They wouldn't have a diminishment of their 27:43 population. 27:44 So there's every reason to believe that there would be 27:46 billions or more. 27:47 >>It's amazing you know the scriptures are telling us that 27:50 there is a light and a dark side to this great controversy. 27:58 When I was a kid and again I grew up in a secular home. 27:59 We had no knowledge of the existence of God. 28:02 It was never spoken of. 28:04 But I had an experience as a child that has never ever left 28:10 me. 28:11 And it was so scary that to this day it's a vivid memory in my 28:17 mind. 28:19 We were living in Los Angeles California and there was this 28:23 story in my family. 28:24 Everybody was grieving about the fact that one of my uncles had 28:31 accidentally shot another one of my uncles, his brother in a 28:35 hunting accident. 28:41 >>Wow. 28:42 >>literally he killed his brother accidentally in the 28:44 woods. 28:45 Thought he was, you know, one of the animals they were hunting 28:47 for. 28:48 And shot and killed him. 28:50 And this was a very horrible thing in our family. 28:54 And as a kid I remember hearing the story about Uncle Billy is 28:57 dead. 28:58 And again in a secular home some of our family members. 29:03 I'm just a kid standing on the edge watching all of this 29:07 happen, my aunt's got together and they sat around a table in 29:13 our house. 29:15 And they determined, I don't know where they got the idea, to 29:18 make contact. 29:22 >>With Billy. 29:24 >>With Billy to communicate. 29:26 >>Right. 29:27 >>With Billy. 29:28 Now I was just kind of watching from a distance and what I 29:32 witnessed was so amazing. 29:37 And it frightened everybody when they as they were sitting around 29:39 this table engaged in this communication process. 29:43 And communication started there was a point at which one of my 29:46 aunts began kind of, you know, arguing with what was taking 29:53 place with this being that was communicating. 29:57 And as a kid I watched from a distance around the corner as 30:01 the table that they were sitting around literally began to quake 30:05 and to shake and to just start to lift up. 30:08 And to just move in a direction across the room. 30:11 I ran to my room and I don't know memories when you're a kid 30:17 can start to get a little blurry with the time. 30:19 I don't know if it was days or weeks later I was lying on my 30:22 bed. 30:24 And this was the experience that you would think that was the 30:26 scary part. 30:27 Here was the really scary part for me as a kid. 30:28 I was laying in my room and my face was toward the wall on my 30:32 bed. 30:34 And something sat on my bed. 30:38 Depressed the mattress I could feel it. 30:42 And I knew that it wasn't my mom. 30:44 I knew that it wasn't a brother or sister. 30:46 >>you just had a sense. 30:48 >>I was terrified. 30:49 Now here's the thing. 30:50 I didn't know till years later that the bible actually 30:53 says--teaches very clearly that we are not--this is in 30:57 Deuteronomy we are not to engage in what the bible calls 31:00 necromancy. 31:02 Which is the word for communication with the dead. 31:04 Or the bible calls it familiar spirits. 31:07 And the reason why is because the dead know not anything, 31:11 scripture says. 31:13 They are in an unconscious state sleep waiting for the 31:15 resurrection. 31:16 And when human beings think they're communicating with 31:19 familiar spirits familial spirits, family members who have 31:24 died. 31:26 Really what they're experiencing is contact with demonic forces 31:29 that are coming into the situation. 31:32 And 31:33 >>What did you do? 31:35 In your room when that depression came on the bed? 31:36 >>I laid there for a long time just terrified and trembling. 31:40 And finally worked up the courage to just turn around and 31:43 look. 31:44 And there was nothing there. 31:45 It was not a human being. 31:46 There was a dark spiritual force right there in my bedroom. 31:50 >>You know I went through an experience like that once as a 31:53 Christian, as a believer. 31:54 And it reminds me that the bible teaches very clearly that there 31:58 are good and bad angels. 32:00 In fact you can see this in just a couple of verses in the book 32:04 of Matthew chapter 4. 32:05 Jesus is in the wilderness. 32:07 He has come to this earth as a man as a human being. 32:11 And he's been led out into the wilderness and there he 32:13 encounters Lucifer. 32:15 He encounters the devil. 32:16 He encounters Satan. 32:17 And it says here that the devil in verse 5 of Matthew 4 took him 32:20 to the holy city and set him on a pentacle of the temple. 32:23 So there's power. 32:25 There is a spiritual being that has power to manipulate and take 32:29 control of and move physical objects. 32:33 >>A body. 32:34 >>Physical objects including people and do things with them. 32:36 And then he says what's really interesting. 32:38 He says if you are the son of God cast yourself for it is 32:42 written He shall give his angels charge concerning thee. 32:46 And in their hands they shall bear thee up lest though at any 32:49 time you dash your foot against a stone. 32:52 In other words the devil himself is communicating in this verse 32:54 that God has given angels charge over human beings. 32:58 So there's another confirmation of what we looked at in Matthew 33:01 chapter 18. 33:03 I was in a situation, as a believer, a fairly new believer 33:06 where it was night time. 33:08 I was going to sleep and I was by myself. 33:10 And I just was laying there and all of a sudden I felt something 33:14 very dark around me. 33:16 Just like you did. 33:17 A presence I don't know how to explain it other than that. 33:20 But the sense of that presence got closer and closer and closer 33:25 until I was completely incapacitated. 33:27 I couldn't move at all. 33:29 And I just felt something was there completely immobilizing 33:33 me. 33:34 And it was a really terrifying thought because. 33:36 >>What did you do? 33:37 >>I couldn't move. 33:39 I couldn't do hardly anything. 33:40 All I could do and I just remember this distinctly 33:42 thinking just cry out for Jesus. 33:45 Just say the name of Jesus. 33:48 And I couldn't say it with my mouth. 33:50 I couldn't move at all so I just thought it, thought it, thought 33:53 it, Jesus help me, Jesus help me, Jesus help me. 33:54 And it was really terrifying but moments later it was gone. 33:59 Just gone. 34:00 And I think that that experience was enough for me to realize. 34:03 >>You could move. 34:04 You could talk. 34:05 >>it was gone. 34:06 I was fine. 34:07 >>Empirically you couldn't prove that experience or my experience 34:09 to anybody. 34:10 I mean it's, it's my experience. 34:11 But you could never prove to me that it didn't happen. 34:13 >>Yes exactly. 34:15 It was enough for me to know that these verses we're talking 34:17 about. 34:19 >>You read the gospels and you see Jesus encountering the same 34:21 thing don't you? 34:22 You see Jesus he's encountering individuals. 34:23 >>People, people yeah. 34:25 >>In this spiritual conflict I mean I was in New Mexico and I 34:28 was in somebody's home. 34:30 A Gentlemen's home and I was there to actually give him a 34:33 bible study and as I was reading he all of a sudden starts 34:39 talking. 34:40 And his voice went from his normal voice to [growl] some 34:44 deep creepy voice. 34:46 And I just locked up like this. 34:48 And I just started reading though I walk through the valley 34:53 of the shadow of death, you know. 34:54 >>Psalm 91. 34:55 >>I'm like reading. 34:57 And I couldn't--I wouldn't look up. 34:58 I was just so, you know he had crazy hair. 35:00 And he would look at you with these piercing eyes. 35:02 And I just read and read and read. 35:04 I didn't want to stop reading and I whispered a prayer at the 35:08 end and I--I was out. 35:10 So obviously there are people that we--that we encounter and 35:13 that even in Jesus' day encountered. 35:15 There's--in other words there's a spiritual war taking place. 35:18 >>There are going to be people. 35:19 There will be people secularists and moderns who will say that's 35:24 not true. 35:25 There are no Spiritual beings. 35:27 There are no angelic or demonic or supernatural beings. 35:30 But here's the reality. 35:31 Just factually. 35:32 Just speaking totally factually if you look at most cultures 35:36 that are presently in existence and most cultures that have 35:39 historically existed. 35:41 Most of those cultures well in excess of 70, 80 perhaps even 90 35:46 percent believe in some form of spiritual power both good and 35:50 evil. 35:51 >>In the supernatural. 35:52 >>That's what I'm saying in the supernatural. 35:54 And many of those cultures have a particular fear of spirit 35:57 beings or ancestral spirits. 36:01 So the point here is this isn't just some quirky little thing 36:04 that happened to Ty or to James or to Jeffrey or to myself or to 36:07 the listeners. 36:08 These are real things and if you just go on the, the cooboration 36:12 of historical and cultural data, many, many, many millions of 36:18 people have had similar experiences. 36:20 >>What are you supposed to say that millions upon millions of 36:22 people know that never happened? 36:24 >>The majority, the majority of the human race for the majority 36:26 of the history of humanity has always believed in the 36:29 supernatural. 36:30 >>It's only in this modern time which we are supposedly now to 36:33 scientific for the spiritual that this is beginning to be 36:36 doubted. 36:37 But even today in so called modern times the majority of the 36:40 cultures would affirm basic spiritual realities of good and 36:43 evil. 36:44 >>Can I tell you a positive one? 36:46 >>Of course. 36:49 >>Okay so [Everyone talking at once] 36:51 >>James shared with us from scripture that angels are 36:54 guardians to children; they have an interest in children right? 36:59 Jason, my son, he was no more than 7, 8 years old. 37:04 We as a family were visiting friends in Montana. 37:07 They had about 80 acres, not about; they had 80 acres on the 37:10 boarder of Canada in Montana. 37:15 This is lots of bush, okay. 37:17 We go to this place. 37:21 Jason had a knife that he had purchased in the Philippines. 37:27 It was a souvenir. 37:29 He was playing with it with his friends on this piece of 37:31 property. 37:34 The son of the family we were there visiting. 37:38 They were out romping on this property. 37:39 He loses the knife, okay. 37:40 The whole spring/summer/winter goes by. 37:41 We never found the thing, searched and searched and 37:43 searched. 37:44 Next season, all this new growth is up. 37:46 All this time has gone by. 37:48 We're back visiting this family in Montana alright. 37:52 And, Sue, with her children offers a very simple prayer 37:57 because Jason can't forget 38:01 >>yeah, yeah, yeah. 38:03 >>He can't forget this knife; do you think we can find it? 38:05 Do you think we can find it? 38:06 I'm thinking I don't think we can find it. 38:07 [Laughter] 38:08 >>Okay so can we look? 38:09 Can we look? 38:11 And so we go outside and we look at all this bush 80 acres 38:13 whatever. 38:14 And Jason's mommy simply prays, hey Jason let's pray. 38:17 Dear Father in heaven if it's possible please help Jason, you 38:21 know he liked that souvenir from the Philippines when we were 38:26 there. 38:27 Help him find it. 38:29 I kid you not. 38:30 We open our eyes from prayer and they have a dog. 38:36 And this dog, we look down and is holding that knife from last 38:42 season in his mouth. 38:46 Basically hands it back to my son. 38:49 You could say whatever you want [laughter] you could say 38:55 whatever you want. 38:57 >>Are you serious? 38:58 >>I'm dead serious. 38:59 >>I mean I don't doubt you because I think it's possible. 39:03 >>We're believers and we doubt you. 39:04 [Laughter] 39:06 >>No I --I'm saying you can't prove these things empirically. 39:08 I'm telling you this happened. 39:09 >>What did you do? 39:10 I just want to know like what was the reaction like right 39:12 then. 39:13 >>I was--I was blown away to say the least and felt kind of a 39:14 weird nervous feeling in my stomach. 39:16 That's what I felt. 39:18 >>What did Sue say or do. 39:20 >>Jason was simple as a little boy. 39:22 He was just like oh neat. 39:24 He got his knife you know. 39:26 [Laughter] 39:27 >>We gotta take a break but when we come back we need to develop 39:32 our character profile of Lucifer because that's where we were 39:34 going and we need to finish that next. 39:36 >>Amen, amen. 39:37 >>Digma videos are short engaging messages designed for 39:47 >>Digma videos are short engaging messages designed for 39:53 opening up discussion with individuals and groups regarding 39:56 the character of God as well as your own personal, spiritual 39:59 growth. 40:01 For your free DVD sample collection of Digma videos call 40:04 1-877-585-1111. 40:07 Or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 40:12 97438. 40:15 Once again for your free DVD sample collection of Digma 40:19 videos call 1-877-585-1111. 40:25 Or write to Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 40:29 97438. 40:32 Simply ask for Digma DVD 2. 40:40 >>Clearly the bible identifies powers of evil, powers of good. 40:43 Forces of evil, forces of good; spiritual wickedness in high 40:45 places. 40:48 We've looked at this from biblical perspectives. 40:50 We've looked at it from an experiential perspective. 40:52 All of us have somehow experienced the dark side of the 40:56 forces that are in this world. 40:58 So who specifically is this? 41:00 I mean what is this being that we've been talking about? 41:03 These angels that follow him. 41:05 Does the bible identify him? 41:07 What is he like? 41:08 What is his personality like? 41:10 What is he up to? 41:12 What is his purpose? 41:14 How did he come into being? 41:16 Was he created by God? 41:17 >>In the course of our conversation we've used several 41:18 names for him. 41:19 We've said Satan. 41:20 We've said devil. 41:21 We've said Lucifer. 41:23 >>Beelzebub. 41:24 >>Beelzebub. 41:25 These are all terms that the bible uses to describe this 41:26 power that we're talking about and fortunately for us we're not 41:28 left to wonder what is this strange dark force that I feel 41:33 in my room or in the woods or whatever. 41:34 The bible comes right out and fingers this individual as none 41:39 other than one of these angels that rebelled against God's 41:45 government. 41:46 >>Let's put some scripture on the table. 41:48 >>Okay. 41:49 >>Isaiah chapter 14. 41:50 >>Bring it Jeffrey. 41:51 >>Isaiah chapter 14 is the lifting the curtain, giving us a 41:54 glimpse behind the scenes. 41:55 And I'm just going to read from verse 12. 41:57 >>Okay. 41:58 >>I think this is one of the foundational verses. 42:03 How are you fallen from heaven oh Lucifer son of the morning. 42:07 How you are cut down to the ground you who weakened the 42:11 nations. 42:13 You have said in your heart I will ascend into heaven. 42:15 I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. 42:19 I will sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest 42:24 sides of the north. 42:26 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. 42:29 I will be like the most high. 42:31 >>That's astounding. 42:32 >>And there's a link here. 42:34 I mean there's several links here but just one link here that 42:36 just jumped out at me right now is I will be like the most high. 42:39 So it reminds me of Genesis 3. 42:43 You will be like God. 42:49 >>Right. 42:50 >>So the same--there's a passion here to be like the most high to 42:51 be like God and it's almost like an echo from Genesis 3 where he 42:56 promises you will be like God. 42:58 >>Very much so and because chronologically what's taking 43:02 place here in Isaiah 14 is actually before Genesis 3. 43:05 In a way Genesis 3 is an echo of this. 43:07 >>Yeah, yeah. 43:09 Chronologically that would be the case. 43:11 I see something going on here that is really, really 43:14 fascinating for what we talked about in Genesis 3. 43:19 And that is that Lucifer's basic framework of thinking is 43:24 described here and he's being quoted in a sense by the prophet 43:29 right? 43:30 You said in your heart. 43:31 So this is getting into his inner thinking. 43:34 You said in your heart. 43:35 I will ascend into heaven. 43:37 I will exalt my throne about the stars above God. 43:40 I will sit in the mount of the congregation on the farthest 43:44 sides of the north. 43:45 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. 43:47 Now here's the thing I'm going to say alright. 43:50 I will be like the most high is the final of the five. 43:51 And what's happening here is a kind of demonic psychological 43:59 projection if I can use that word. 44:02 Lucifer is saying I will exalt myself. 44:05 I will live with reference to myself. 44:08 I will be self-serving and self-centered. 44:10 I will be like God. 44:11 Did you hear that? 44:13 >>yeah. 44:15 >>Okay so what he is saying 44:17 >>That's huge. 44:18 >>In Genesis 3 is he is saying essentially you remember God is 44:21 self-serving. 44:24 He's denying the existence of love in God and in the universe. 44:28 And he's basically becoming self-centered. 44:32 Sin is originating in him. 44:35 It's self-centeredness. 44:36 It's originating in him and then he's basically saying God's like 44:40 that. 44:41 He's projecting his bad character on God. 44:43 Isn't that amazing? 44:47 >>It's amazing. 44:48 >>That's powerful cool. 44:49 Question real quick. 44:50 I will be like the most high. 44:52 Well we've been establishing that God is love. 44:54 God is love. 44:55 God is love. 44:56 Did this rebellious being, selfish rebellious being want to 44:59 be love. 45:00 >>Obviously not. 45:02 >>No his misunderstood. 45:04 >>He's denying the existence of love. 45:06 >>Isn't that interesting? 45:07 So he's demonstrating a misconception of God as you were 45:09 saying. 45:10 >>He does not want to be like God in character. 45:12 He wants to be like God in power. 45:13 >>That's it. 45:14 That's it. 45:16 >>That's an excellent way of saying it. 45:17 >>And he assumes that God is leading by position and not by 45:19 influence. 45:21 If I could just have the position. 45:23 >>Oh I love that. 45:24 >>That's good isn't it? 45:25 >>Yeah, yeah. 45:27 >>If I could just have the position then I would be God. 45:28 But what makes God so awesome and special. 45:29 >>It's his character. 45:30 >>The position that he occupies. 45:32 In fact, the biblical story, and we're getting way ahead. 45:33 But the biblical story is that God will actually relinquish 45:36 that position at the top. 45:37 And still carry the influence because he leads because of who 45:40 he is. 45:41 >>Isn't that something? 45:44 >>Yeah, God will ultimately, can we say rule the universe by 45:46 means of benevolent love. 45:48 And not by means of authoritarian control. 45:51 >>By influence. 45:52 >>The thing that really emerges to me that I see in the passage 45:55 here are these five I will statements. 45:58 Right because he says I will ascend. 46:00 I will exalt. 46:02 I will sit on the mount. 46:04 I will ascend again. 46:05 And I will be like the most high. 46:06 And so each of those statements I will I will I will I will is a 46:10 clear demonstration that this is a war of wills. 46:13 Right he has a will. 46:15 He has a desire and he is at the center of his desire. 46:18 I'm going to. 46:20 I'm going to. 46:21 I'm going to. 46:22 And so it's a war of wills. 46:24 That's the first thing. 46:26 The second thing very quickly is when you notice all of the 46:28 language that communicates up, upward motion. 46:31 I will ascend number one into heaven. 46:34 Number two I will exalt. 46:35 Number three my throne above. 46:37 Number four the stars. 46:38 Five of God. 46:39 I will sit on the mount six of the congregation on the farthest 46:43 sides of the north. 46:44 Seven I will ascend eight above nine the heights ten of the 46:46 clouds eleven. 46:47 I will be like the most high. 46:49 Depending on your various translation and exactly how you 46:53 count it. 46:54 You have not less than ten maybe as many as twelve references to 46:56 I'll go up, up, up, up, up, up I want to be higher than the 47:02 sphere that has been allocated to me. 47:06 >>That's a that's--that's the demonic psyche right there its 47:10 self-exaltation. 47:11 The amazing thing is as the poem progresses I will exalt ascend 47:15 and it's going up, up, up, up. 47:18 And then 47:19 >>15 47:20 >>yet verse 15 you will be brought down. 47:23 You will be brought down to hell to the lowest depths of the pit. 47:28 Up, up, up, down. 47:30 I mean you could say that self-exaltation leads to a 47:36 diminishment of influence and power. 47:38 It doesn't grow a person's influence and power. 47:40 It actually loses power. 47:42 >>We know this to be the case. 47:43 If you have a politician or a leader who tries to lead by his 47:47 force and by his power and not by the person, not by the 47:52 quality of his character. 47:53 That by the strength of his position we call that a 47:55 dictatorship. 47:57 Right? 47:58 And who wants to be under a dictator? 48:00 Nobody wants to be under a dictatorship. 48:02 And so it's this basic idea that as I leverage my position for 48:07 influence and control my actual credibility in the eyes of my 48:11 subjects diminishes not increases. 48:12 >>Exactly the opposite with Christ. 48:14 Exactly the opposite with God. 48:16 But with God and the person of Christ in Philippians chapter 2. 48:20 >>Yes. 48:21 >>It talks about the downward. 48:22 >>Yes. 48:23 >>Descending. 48:24 Now notice this. 48:26 This is really interesting beginning with verse 5 48:28 Philippians chapter 2 it says let this mind be in you which 48:31 was also in Christ Jesus. 48:32 So this is calling us to partake of the nature and the character 48:35 of God who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery 48:38 to be equal with God verse 7. 48:40 But made himself of no reputation. 48:42 There's the first. 48:43 Took the form of a bond servant, second. 48:45 Came in the likeness of men, third. 48:47 Being found in the appearance of a man, fourth. 48:50 Humbled himself, five. 48:51 And became obedient to the point of death. 48:53 Even the death of the cross. 48:56 >>I'd say became obedient, six even in death of the cross. 48:58 Not just any ordinary. 49:00 >>Yes. 49:01 >>result down, down down. 49:02 >>Down, down, down. 49:03 >>Notice this though verse 9 therefore God also has highly 49:05 exalted him. 49:06 >>Yes. 49:08 >>And given him a name above every name that at the name of 49:11 Jesus every knee shall bow in heaven and those on earth and 49:15 those under the earth and every tongue should confess that Jesus 49:18 Christ is Lord to the glory of God the father. 49:20 >>Key word there is therefore. 49:21 >>Yeah so you have this humbling going down, down, down, down. 49:26 Which is the mind of God, the character of God. 49:28 That not only brings exaltation but also brings the entire 49:32 universe to acknowledge. 49:34 >>That's right. 49:35 To appreciate him in the strength of his character. 49:37 >>For his character. 49:38 >>Amazing. 49:39 >>So you have an exact inverse. 49:40 You have just like that. 49:41 Here is I'm going to go up at the expense of others. 49:45 And the ultimate result is that you're brought down. 49:47 Here's I'll go down for the benefit of others. 49:49 And the ultimate result is that you're exalted by the very ones 49:52 for whom you humbled yourself. 49:53 >>Isn't that something? 49:56 >>And even those who are not buying into that. 49:58 In other words this is all the universe. 50:01 This is not just those who are benefited from eternally. 50:03 But those also who are looking on like Lucifer and. 50:06 >>At some level every single being recognizes the justice. 50:09 >>Yes. 50:11 >>And goodness of God. 50:12 At the end of time. 50:13 Believer recognize it now. 50:14 >>The humility and the love of God the selfless giving of God. 50:17 >>Yes. 50:18 >>Another thing that I've noticed here in Isaiah 14 and 50:20 this character profile of Lucifer is that he's had a 50:25 devastating or an adverse effect upon nations and kingdoms. 50:28 It says at the end of verse 12 you who weakened the nations. 50:34 So he's exerting influence and then it says in verse 16 that he 50:39 shook kingdoms. 50:41 In verse 17 he's the one that made the world a wilderness or a 50:46 desolate place and he destroyed the cities. 50:48 So, so he's exerting 50:49 >>his influence. 50:51 >>And overall destructive effect on nations and kingdoms and the 50:56 world as a whole. 50:58 I don't know if it's a good idea to quote from the rolling stones 51:03 but I found as a teenager when I first began to wake up 51:08 spiritually very fascinating the song sympathy for the devil by 51:12 the rolling stones. 51:15 The lyrics are just incredible please allow me to introduce 51:18 myself I'm a man of wealth and taste. 51:20 I've been around for a long, long year stolen many a man's 51:24 soul and faith. 51:26 I was around when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and 51:31 pain. 51:32 Made sure that Pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate. 51:36 Pleased to meet you hope you guess my name. 51:38 But what's puzzling me was the nature of my game. 51:40 And then he says this Isaiah 14 remember nations, kingdoms. 51:44 He says, he says here I stuck around St. Petersburg, Russia 51:52 that is. 51:53 When I saw it was time for a change I killed the Czar and his 51:55 ministers and Anastasia screamed in vain. 52:00 I rode a tank held a general's rank when the Blitz Krieg raged 52:04 and the bodies stank. 52:07 Please to meet you hope you guess my name. 52:09 And then the song closes just call me Lucifer. 52:13 Because I'm in need of some restraint. 52:16 It's an amazing lyric. 52:19 >>It's terrifyingly biblically accurate. 52:23 >>Yeah so he has an effect on the nations, on kingdoms. 52:26 Here in this song anyway. 52:28 >>And he has an effect on musicians too. 52:30 >>The devil is involved in the French revolution. 52:33 I mean in the Russian revolution in the Blitz Krieg. 52:36 Anyways, I just, that lyric jolted me as a teenager and made 52:41 me wonder. 52:42 >>How could it not. 52:43 >>yeah. 52:44 >>That takes us right to Ezekiel 28. 52:45 >>Alright. 52:46 >>Because in Ezekiel 28 you have this other description of 52:48 Lucifer and it begins in Ezekiel 28 it begins here in verse 12. 52:54 And as you begin this description of Lucifer here son 52:59 of man take up the lamentation the king of Tyrus and say to him 53:03 thus says the Lord you sealed up the sum. 53:07 You were full of wisdom perfect in beauty verse 13 you were in 53:10 Eden the garden of God. 53:12 Every precious stone was thy covering, the Sardis, the topaz, 53:14 the diadem, the barrel of the onyx, the jasper, the sapphire, 53:18 the emerald, the carbuncle, and the gold. 53:21 The workmanship of thy taberets and of thy pipes was prepared in 53:25 the day that though was created. 53:27 This is a parallel of symbolism here of tyrus but also of 53:33 Lucifer and the pipes that are being talked about here are 53:36 directly connected to music. 53:39 To his ability to actually or his involvement in music. 53:44 In other words, and it's also brought about in Ephesians 53:49 chapter 2 it talks about how that this power is the prince of 53:54 the power of the air. 53:55 You got pipes. 53:56 You got air. 53:58 You've got, you've got a direct connecting here between Lucifer 54:00 and there's a lot more here that we need to look into as far as 54:03 his description and what he's like. 54:05 But Lucifer and the angelic choirs because in heaven, in 54:10 fact God himself is musical. 54:13 The bible describes God as singing over us. 54:15 And all of heaven is a place of music of praise, continual 54:20 praise toward God. 54:21 And here Lucifer is described as the covering cherub. 54:23 The covering angel. 54:25 The one that was probably highest in rank of all of the 54:28 angels, or all the created angels next to God, next the the 54:33 throne of God and quite surely in charge of music. 54:38 In charge of praise. 54:40 >>You know this text brings up a question. 54:42 It mentions perfection, perfect numerous times here. 54:45 But if this being was perfect like the bible says he was how 54:51 can a perfect being become corrupt in the sense that the 54:57 bible describes it? 55:01 >>Well verse 15 James didn't get to that. 55:03 I thnk at least begins to answer the question. 55:06 >>read verse 14 too 14 and 15. 55:08 >>Okay 55:09 >>'Cause he stopped at 13. 55:10 >>Alright verse 14 you were the anointed cherub who covers. 55:13 I established you. 55:15 You were on the holy mountain of God. 55:17 You walked back and forth in the midst of the stones of fire, the 55:20 fiery stones. 55:21 Verse 15 you were perfect in your ways in the day that you 55:24 were created till iniquity was found in you. 55:26 So I think that scripture clearly is saying, you know, in 55:33 answer to the issue you're raising. 55:34 How could perfect being sin or become corrupt. 55:35 It was self-actualized. 55:37 He is the origin of sin and evil. 55:40 It says he was created perfect but iniquity was found in you. 55:46 So this is something that originated in him. 55:49 It's not something--God didn't create, you could say it this 55:54 way. 55:55 God didn't create Satan. 55:57 God created Lucifer the unfallen, beautiful angel. 55:59 Lucifer created Satan. 56:01 >>Does it go back to what we were talking about earlier that 56:03 in the book of Genesis part of God's creation in his creatures 56:08 was the volitional, the ability to make actual decisions that 56:12 mattered. 56:14 >>Yeah for sure. 56:17 >>Of Course. 56:18 >>We're gonna have to continue on with this subject. 56:20 >>Because I feel like we're just getting started. 56:23 >>Yeah we're just getting started on the volition issue, 56:25 the free will issue. 56:26 >>But we have accomplished at least most of what we set out to 56:28 accomplish. 56:30 And that was basically to establish that we live in an 56:31 inhabited universe. 56:33 We said in an earlier conversation that the universe 56:35 was friendly and that is partially true. 56:39 Because the universe is friendly at the divine level. 56:42 But we've learned in this presentation that there is a 56:46 level at which the universe is not friendly. 56:47 There is a dark power. 56:48 >>Right. 56:49 >>there is a power that is in rebellion against God. 56:51 And we've learned that it's an angelic power, it's a 56:54 self-centered power, so in that sense you said we were going to 56:57 accomplish this, this and this at the beginning. 56:59 And we've done most of that. 57:00 But we can talk even more about it and we need to. 57:03 >>Yeah, the third one was basically that we said we were 57:07 gonna cover is that humanity and planet earth is the center now 57:10 of this war between good and evil. 57:12 And we're just gonna have to develop that subject more. 57:14 We basically seen that it is in fact the case. 57:16 Lucifer fell and according to Revelation chapter 12 he came to 57:21 this earth to set up camp. 57:23 >>And even what we spent in our last conversation in that 57:25 Lucifer, the serpent, Satan is in the tree deceiving Adam and 57:31 Eve demonstrates that mankind is at the center of this conflict. 57:36 >>Okay guys so 57:37 >>And there is a lot more here that we can bring out as far as 57:40 answering some of Jeffrey's questions. 57:41 >>So, so we literally have just seconds left. 57:44 So what's the take away? 57:47 Number one we do live in an inhabited universe. 57:50 >>That's friendly and unfriendly. 57:52 >>And Lucifer is an actual being who is fallen and number three 57:57 the great controversy between good and evil is right here 58:01 right now on planet earth among the human race. 58:05 >>Exactly 58:06 >>It's real. 58:09 >>To receive our free monthly news letter and a list of Light 58:11 Bearers resources visit us online at lighbearers.org. 58:15 Or call us toll free at 1-877-585-1111. 58:21 You can also write to us at Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper 58:24 Lowell Road, Jasper, OR 97438. |
Revised 2014-12-17