Participants: David Asscherick, James Rafferty, Jeffrey Rosario, Ty Gibson
Series Code: TT
Program Code: TT000001
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00:21 >> All right guys, we're here doing a new thing but before
00:22 that, James, you just got back from somewhere. 00:24 I haven't seen you in a long time. 00:26 >> Australia, Australia. 00:27 >> So what happened there? 00:28 >> Three weeks. 00:29 Well, I was there closing out for you guys. 00:30 >> I wish I was there. 00:32 >> Man, I wish I could have gone there. 00:33 >> You probably have jet lag. 00:34 >> No, not at all. 00:35 I'm actually doing better than you two because I heard you guys 00:36 were up most of the night writing sermons and I was 00:38 sleeping most of the night, you know, took a little couple 00:41 tablets and out I was. 00:42 >> James, you got to see the graduation of first class -- 00:46 >> Arise Australia. 00:47 >> -- Four guys, 2013. 00:48 First class, you got to see the graduation and not tell us. 00:51 >> Yep, and you didn't, nani-nani-na-na. 00:52 [Laughs] 00:53 >> That was awesome; that was really good. 00:54 >> You did not just do that. 00:56 >> [Laughs] 00:57 >> I'm sorry, I did it. 00:58 It was really good. 00:59 >> James is the oldest person at the table. 01:00 >> Oldest? 01:01 Come on, you did not just do that, did you? 01:03 >> [Laughter] 01:04 >> Nobody knew I was the oldest person until you said that. 01:05 >> Well, now everybody knows. 01:06 >> Well, we knew. 01:07 Now, everybody listening knows. 01:09 >> All right, all right. 01:10 >> Well, Jeffrey is the youngest. 01:11 >> I'm the young buck, yes. 01:12 >> Oh my. 01:13 >> And the most serious. 01:14 >> So, table, we're at a table. 01:15 We're at the table, we're at the table. 01:16 So what are we doing at this table? 01:17 >> We're sitting here. 01:18 >> Yeah, we're having a conversation. 01:19 >> Drinking our water. 01:21 >> We're going to have a conversation at this table and 01:22 there is a history to this that goes way, way back. 01:25 We're calling this new series of programs Table Talk. 01:29 It's appropriate -- 01:30 >> I love that title, by the way. 01:31 >> -- It's appropriate because we're here as four brothers in 01:34 Christ and students of the word. 01:35 >> And neighbors. 01:37 >> And neighbors to boot and we're here to explore the word 01:39 of God. 01:41 We're here to explore the scriptures. 01:42 Martin Luther gathered together with his friends and explored 01:47 the scriptures and every subject under the sun at a table. 01:50 >> That's what I like about it. 01:53 I like the idea that Martin Luther was this preacher guy, 01:55 theological guy, issues, crises, all this stuff but then there 02:01 were times, I just found out, that he just sat at a table just 02:04 talking about all these different issues in society, in 02:07 politics, in government, whatever. 02:11 >> Relationships. 02:12 >> Yeah. 02:13 >> Notes were taken on those conversations and there is an 02:15 actual book called table talk. 02:17 Luther and his friends sitting around a table talking, that's 02:21 what we're going to do. 02:22 >> We're going to try and emulate that here. 02:23 Now, we don't have any food, too bad. 02:24 >> No. 02:26 >> But we do have water. 02:27 It's yummy too. 02:28 >> [Laughs] 02:29 >> But, you know, I'm with James on that. 02:31 I love the idea that, you know, we sort of have this picture of 02:33 historical figures and not just Martin Luther but many 02:35 historical figures, especially spiritual ones as being sort of, 02:39 all they do is preach; no, they had lives. 02:42 You know, they had to put their clothes on, they had to walk 02:44 their dog, you know, they had lives and they would, think 02:47 about it, what are the things that bring us happiness and joy. 02:50 I love having Jeffrey over, I love having you guys over to the 02:52 house, sit down, talk, hang out in the living room. 02:54 >> Listen to new music. 02:56 >> Listen to new music and just talk about Jesus or whatever. 02:58 >> It's about community. 03:00 Community, creativity. 03:01 >> Community and conversation. 03:02 >> Yeah, conversation. 03:04 >> And we have them all the time around here. 03:06 >> There's another facet to that table talk idea with Luther 03:08 going back to the reformation and that is the concept of the 03:12 priesthood of all believers. 03:13 >> Yes. 03:15 >> I like the fact that we've decided in this new series of 03:18 programs to sit around a table as equals, as fellow students of 03:22 the word of God. 03:23 >> And fellow students of life. 03:25 >> Yeah, of life itself, recognizing that there is in 03:29 fact a priesthood of all believers, I mean, that's pretty 03:32 high sounding language. 03:34 >> Yeah, I was about to say can you unpack that a little bit. 03:36 >> Yeah, yeah. 03:37 But Luther and the other protestant reformers basically 03:39 said that this distinct, this distinct line between clergy and 03:43 lay people just needs to be -- 03:45 >> The holy people and the other people. 03:46 >> Yeah, the holy people and the other people, close the gap, 03:49 give the bible to the people and let everybody read the word of 03:53 God. 03:54 Let's study the scriptures together. 03:56 So I like this, I love the fact that we're around a table 03:59 together to study the word of God. 04:01 >> I love it too and I also like the idea that even in our modern 04:04 experience, even though we don't have the hierarchical structure 04:08 against which Luther was railing. 04:11 That's not exactly the world we live in whether it was religious 04:13 or civil, kings and popes and cardinals and all that but it is 04:17 also the case that for different reasons, for reasons of 04:20 secularism and other things, that there is a distinction 04:23 between the spiritual thing and then the rest of the thing. 04:28 >> Yeah, yeah, that's so common. 04:29 >> But the most important, I mean, as somebody who -- you 04:32 travel and preach, you travel and preach, you travel and 04:34 preach, I travel and preach and praise God for that, praise God 04:37 that we get to preach to thousands every year but isn't 04:39 it true that as much as the preaching from the front that 04:43 sitting down with your peeps, sitting down with your friends, 04:47 with former Arise students, with people that you've ministered to 04:50 before or new friends and just talking or sharing a meal, that 04:53 is just as spiritual and just as edifying as any sermon that you 04:58 preach from the front. 05:00 >> Sometimes more so. 05:01 >> Iron sharpens iron. 05:02 >> Yeah. 05:03 >> Bouncing ideas together develops and expands our own -- 05:06 >> Plus, we have our iPads. 05:07 I mean, we're modern now. 05:09 >> We're modern now. 05:10 We're very modern now. 05:11 >> We've got extra weapons. 05:12 >> Hey guys, let's just begin this series together with a very 05:16 basic and fundamental question. 05:17 >> A series of conversations, I love that. 05:20 >> Yeah, a series of conversations. 05:22 >> Okay. 05:23 I'm ready. 05:24 >> What is the bible? 05:25 I mean, the bible is going to be our text. 05:26 That's where we're drawing our insight from. 05:29 What is the bible and then after we talk about what the bible is, 05:33 what's the bible about? 05:36 What's the subject of scripture? 05:38 Is there one subject? 05:39 Maybe it's broader than that but first of all, what is this book? 05:41 What is the bible? 05:42 >> There is different dimensions to that question but I think 05:45 that something that will emerge continually is the whole idea of 05:49 story; that the bible is a story, it's a narrative and like 05:53 the bumper sticker says, his-story, capital H-I-S. 05:58 So it's the story of God's interaction with humanity. 06:02 >> Can I just press just the quickest of pause buttons there 06:05 and I want you to continue to develop that Jeffrey, we'll all 06:07 develop it but in my mind I'm just imagining, I have two 06:10 brothers, two sisters so I come from a family of five, you come 06:13 from a pretty good family, we all have brothers and sisters. 06:16 At this present time right now, my brothers and sisters are not 06:20 strong Christians, some of them are not Christians at all, and 06:23 as we sort of have this conversation, in my mind, I want 06:26 this conversation to be accessible to people like them. 06:30 >> Yeah, yeah. 06:32 >> In other words, not just Jeffrey the preacher and David 06:35 the preacher and even the people who are listening in who know 06:37 where first Timothy is and what Nehemiah is all about, but I'm 06:40 thinking like if my brother is here at the table or my sister 06:42 is here at the table, would they understand -- 06:44 >> Well I just got a haircut. 06:47 I just sat in a chair and this -- 06:49 >> Looks good, by the way. 06:50 >> -- Thank you. 06:51 >> Not as good as mine. 06:52 Just kidding. 06:54 >> This lady cut my hair and we just had a conversation and it 06:57 was the real stuff that life is made out of. 07:01 How many kids do you have? 07:03 How old are they? 07:04 >> What are their names? 07:05 What are they doing? 07:07 >> What are you into? 07:08 I'm into horses, she said, I love horses. 07:09 And I thought, as we came to this table, of her. 07:13 I thought of her for the last few days in fact just thinking, 07:18 wow, she is the kind of person that I'd love to just get to 07:22 know as a person and then perchance, God willing and open 07:28 hearts just begin to explore the word of God together. 07:31 I'd love for us, as you're saying David, to have a 07:35 conversation that's not just between the four of us but that 07:38 others can listen in on -- 07:42 >> Listen in on. 07:43 >> -- And actually benefit and gain perspective that will, you 07:48 know, act like a compass in life. 07:50 >> Because the temptation for the four of us as preachers and 07:53 as people who have been reading the bible and studying the bible 07:55 for years, we love this book, is just going to be to go right up 07:59 to advanced, you know, quick, quick, quick intense, and praise 08:04 God for that, I think we'll have time for that. 08:06 That'll emerge but especially as we start the series I think it's 08:09 crucially important that we sort of define our terms because 08:13 there's a lot of spiritual things that just feel really 08:18 inaccessible to people. 08:19 I know when I first became a believer, 24, 25 years old, 08:22 there's a whole new vocabulary, there's new books, there's 08:25 places you go. 08:27 The whole thing, you have to get oriented and let's be honest, 08:30 for some people that learning curve is just too steep. 08:32 The church is not in some ways user friendly. 08:35 And so in as much as it's possible, we're here, we're 08:38 around a table, we're not sharing a meal but we're 08:40 definitely, we're neighbors, we love one another, we're inviting 08:42 others to listen in to this conversation. 08:44 In addition to the conversation itself, let's model, as much as 08:47 it's possible, how to build slowly, logically and biblically 08:53 so that at the end, it's like, oh, I can see that. 08:55 >> And that's why we're starting with the subject that we're 08:57 starting with. 08:59 >> Yeah, what is the bible actually? 09:01 >> Let's take that word conversation. 09:02 I love that as a definition in a sense. 09:03 In Genesis chapter three, you have the record of the creation 09:08 1 and 2 and then you have the fall of mankind in Genesis 09:11 chapter three. 09:12 For a second, we're taken back to what God originally intended 09:15 for us. 09:17 It says in Genesis chapter three and, what is it, verse eight? 09:21 My eyes aren't as good as they used to be. 09:23 >> There's glasses here if you need them. 09:24 >> Okay. 09:26 Thank you. 09:27 It says, "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in 09:29 the garden in the cool of the day." 09:31 Okay. 09:32 What does that verse tell us? 09:33 What does that verse tell us? 09:35 It's talking about relationship, it's talking about conversation. 09:37 God was in the habit of visiting with us, walking with us in the 09:43 cool of the day after the day was over and just talking like 09:45 my wife and I have what's called pillow talk. 09:47 It's pillow talk. 09:49 Yeah, we're done, we're at the end of the day, we're just lying 09:53 in bed, I'm looking at the ceiling, she's getting ready to 09:56 go to sleep, I'm looking at the ceiling -- I said that already, 09:58 didn't I -- and we're just talking about the day. 10:01 We're just conversing, we're just talking. 10:03 God was in the habit was doing this. 10:05 Now, after the fall, what happens? 10:08 Well, in this context of Genesis three, Adam and Eve were 10:11 actually hiding but God hasn't changed. 10:13 >> That's part of the story, isn't it? 10:15 >> Yes, that's it. 10:16 >> So you're kind of mid-way in the story but I appreciate why 10:18 you're going there because you're saying that the intent, 10:20 God's intent is relational and we're going to spend a lot of 10:23 time on that. 10:25 We have to intentionally infuse into all biblical, spiritual, 10:31 Christian conversations of relationality that too often 10:35 it's distant from the conversation. 10:37 It just becomes a series of do you believe, do you believe, do 10:41 you accept, do you accept? 10:42 >> Isolated points. 10:43 >> Okay. 10:44 So that's not what the bible is then? 10:45 What is the bible? 10:46 >> I was the one that sort of got us off there for a little 10:48 bit, I said I wanted to bring my brother, my sister, you want to 10:50 bring your hairdresser to the conversation and others, but 10:53 Jeffrey, you were onto it there. 10:55 >> And that floats with exactly what I was saying. 10:57 What you've done is brought the concept of people and 10:59 conversation and relational and that's where I was going is that 11:03 scripture is a story and it's the story of God. 11:08 It's the story of God's interaction with real people in 11:12 real times and in real places. 11:14 >> Well, Jeffrey, I think there's a reason, a really good 11:17 psychological reason if I can say it that way, why God has 11:20 chosen to communicate with us in the form of story. 11:24 I think God is speaking to us in the form of story because we as 11:27 human beings live story. 11:29 Every one of us, we act, we relate, we move forward in life, 11:34 the history builds behind us. 11:35 We're all building a narrative, we're all building a story and 11:37 these little micro-stories are actually occurring within the 11:42 larger meta-narrative, the big scope, the big picture story 11:48 that is God's story. 11:49 We as human beings relate in the form of story so the scriptures 11:53 aren't merely a list of points; God wants us to actually see his 11:57 actions and interactions so that ultimately we can envision 12:01 ourselves interacting in the story and having actual effect 12:06 by the lives that we live. 12:08 >> Which assumes that we don't live isolated lives. 12:09 And there's so many people. 12:11 I was just in New York City just yesterday and I flew in and just 12:16 at the airport and the plane and you're just, you're surrounded 12:20 -- 12:21 >> I know exactly what you're experiencing. 12:23 >> -- By people constantly and you can just see in their face 12:25 that people are living as if life was isolated from anything 12:30 else. 12:32 And to me the precious picture that the bible gives us is, I am 12:35 not in isolation. 12:38 I am part of a narrative and I'm part of God's story; I'm in 12:41 God's story and I think that's powerful. 12:45 >> Yeah, we're a lot less isolated than we even imagine. 12:47 I was just thinking as you were saying that about that study 12:50 done way back when, that is called the six degrees of 12:54 separation. 12:55 And the basic idea is that if you pick any two people on the 12:58 planet, that person knows someone who knows someone who 13:02 knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows that 13:05 person. 13:06 We're all no more -- 13:07 >> And it's usually much closer than six. 13:09 >> We're linked. 13:11 >> -- Yeah. 13:12 Closer. 13:13 We're all not more than six steps out from one another so 13:15 everything we do is impacting the whole. 13:16 It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that my little life will 13:23 have eternal effect. 13:24 >> Yeah. 13:25 The thing -- you are onto it right there and you are onto it 13:29 -- something that I've been saying a lot lately, in fact, 13:32 just over the course of the last month is that this thing that 13:35 we're experiencing right here, this thing we call life, reality 13:39 is itself relational. 13:42 Right, now just think about that. 13:44 We tend to think of reality as physical or you know, there 13:48 certainly is a physical component, no one would deny 13:50 that but the texture of reality, the feel of reality is there is 13:55 a relational, an undeniable relational component. 13:59 Now, we're not going to get into this right now but that strongly 14:03 suggests that the heart, the ultimate truth about the 14:07 universe is relational. 14:08 >> Yeah, we're all living in relation to one another and God 14:13 is living in relation to us and there's a point at which all of 14:16 us as human beings suddenly wake up to the reality that we are 14:20 living in a universe in proximity to God. 14:26 All the way until I was 18 I didn't have the foggiest idea. 14:30 All the sudden, I was hyper aware that I was living, one way 14:34 or another, good or bad, in relation to the God of the 14:38 universe. 14:39 >> You know, I really like that emulation. 14:40 Look at this verse, just look at this verse and tell me if you 14:43 get this point, if this comes out of the verse. 14:45 This is in Hebrews chapter one and we're looking at actually 14:48 two verses, Hebrews chapter one, verses 1 and 2. 14:50 Now, let me just read these to you, I actually prefer these out 14:55 of the King James but they're a little bit archaic out of the 14:57 King James so I'm going to read them out of the NIV. 15:00 It says here and this is my handy-dandy iPad that someone 15:02 let me borrow just to see if I would like it. 15:04 >> You need to get your on handy-dandy iPad. 15:05 >> I do need to, yes. 15:08 "In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets 15:11 at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he 15:15 has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all 15:19 things, and through whom also he made the universe." 15:21 Now, there's two key words there that come out and I'm going to 15:24 emphasize them. 15:25 In the past, God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets, 15:29 bible, in various and many ways. 15:32 Many prophets, many different authors, but in these last days 15:35 he spoken to us. 15:37 Do you see the key point? 15:38 >> Got it, got it. 15:40 >> It's conversation, it's communication, it's relational. 15:42 >> God is a speaker. 15:43 >> The book of Hebrews is actually written to a religious 15:45 people who have forgotten about relationship. 15:48 >> They forgot the story. 15:49 >> They lost the plot. 15:50 >> Yes. 15:52 And I think, again, going back to other people I see it seems 15:55 to me that the essence of life is encountering what is the 16:00 story that I am a part of. 16:02 >> What's the story that we're all a part of? 16:05 >> And happiness depends on the degree to which I plug in and 16:09 when I start losing the plot, that's when you begin to 16:14 experience loneliness, guilt, disillusionment, lack of 16:17 purpose, lack of meaning. 16:19 But if I can encounter the story, that's what brings 16:24 meaning and purpose to life. 16:25 >> And can that loss happen in religion without the story, just 16:30 religion? 16:31 >> Not only can it, -- 16:33 >> Well, in other words we're not just here to talk about 16:35 religion, we're not just here to talk about theology, we're not 16:38 just here to talk about the bible per se but the meaning 16:40 behind it. 16:41 >> Because a religious individual could also be bereft 16:43 of meaning and purpose and be reading the bible every day and 16:47 still be completely out of touch with reality. 16:51 >> Something that I wanted to touch on just quickly, James, 16:54 you went to Hebrews eleven which I think is a great -- 16:57 >> Hebrews one. 16:58 >> -- Hebrews one, excuse me, which I think is a great place 17:00 to start this conversation and you mention there that it says 17:02 that God spoke. 17:04 That is the very first act that God is recorded as doing in 17:08 scripture. 17:09 The very first thing, in the beginning God created the 17:11 heavens and the earth but the means by which he created was, 17:14 and God said, he spoke. 17:17 So if you just sort of clear your mind and think okay, I'm 17:20 encountering God, who is this God, what kind of a being is he 17:23 and the first thing that you know about him is that he speaks 17:26 instantly, he's communicative. 17:28 >> That's powerful. 17:29 >> It's powerful because it says something about this character 17:32 of God. 17:33 Why does somebody communicate? 17:34 To be understood. 17:37 Why does someone want to be understood? 17:38 Because they want to be known. 17:39 Why does a person want to be known? 17:41 Because they want to be loved. 17:42 So the fact that we have what we call the word of God, the fact 17:43 that God has chosen to communicate with us in a text 17:49 like this says something about the character of God. 17:52 God is a communicator by nature. 17:55 >> And it assumes he's not some vapor in the sky. 17:57 It assumes that God is an intellectual being. 18:00 >> He's a person. 18:01 >> He's filled with emotion, with character, with 18:03 personality. 18:04 >> Okay guys, we're off to a good start and we're going to 18:06 come back right after a break and just pursue this thing 18:09 straight through. 18:10 >> I used to drink, I used to womanize. 18:22 That is all I thought was the best thing for me, hang around 18:26 with girls. 18:27 You can jump around, dance and hang around with women, go 18:35 tonight clubs and the rest; come back home and sit down, all you 18:39 see is this emptiness. 18:41 But still within me there was something longing. 18:52 What is it that can create joy, what's the meaning of life? 18:57 Is there somebody that can help me to find continued happiness? 19:02 A certain person was just passing by and he said, "I have 19:14 these lessons, would you mind studying them? 19:16 It could change your life. 19:18 If I told you feel, you want something more to do in life." 19:22 And I said, well God, God. 19:23 We see people going to church, people talk about God but, I 19:26 mean, some -- we even do the same things together, what will 19:30 I benefit from becoming a Christian? 19:33 He kept on telling me, "Please, think about your life 19:40 realistically. 19:42 Are you really happy with drinking and women and the rest 19:45 of all that?" 19:47 I said, "Honestly, I'm not really happy because sometimes 19:49 when I am sober if my mind, I cry. 19:52 I need something to hold onto." 19:54 Then I said, "Well, I'll have them." 20:00 I kept them for a day or two but something kept on telling me can 20:04 you keep something that has been -- maybe there is some good news 20:07 for you, why keep them? 20:09 One day, I just picked up and said, well, let me go through 20:19 and I saw how the first lesson was talking about we can believe 20:22 in God, everything designed has a designer, there must be 20:28 somebody who put everything in order, everything created has a 20:31 creator. 20:32 Then, something started growing within me, what is this God? 20:35 Then, I continued to go through the lessons. 20:38 I had a bible by my side. 20:42 I used to compare the verses because I was suspicious, maybe 20:45 the verses they're giving me, they're not in line with the 20:48 bible. 20:49 So I had my bible and I compared, I found it was 20:52 perfectly the same until finally with encouragements the lessons, 20:56 the preachings, all these things that surrounded me, I kind of 21:00 started seeing some light at the end of the tunnel. 21:03 I finished all the lessons, I looked around, "Do you have any 21:14 other material?" 21:15 "Oh, let me organize for you." 21:17 Simple tracks that came, is God fair, all those, I kept on 21:21 going; I was yearning to know as an individual. 21:25 And as I got to know, God revealed himself to me and 21:29 finally I decided to say, "Is there anything else I can do?" 21:34 "Oh, you need to be baptized." 21:36 And that is how I was baptized on the third of June in 2000 and 21:40 from then on, I have not kept quiet this discover bible guides 21:54 have helped me. 21:55 I can take them out there so that people in homes can study 21:59 them and get more and more knowledge about God like I did. 22:04 I love my relationship with Jesus and feel homes can be 22:09 mended if Christ was to come, life can be redirected if 22:13 somebody thought about giving their lives to Jesus. 22:16 I know what God did for me, he can do it in somebody. 22:19 I can encourage them and it's happening and God is doing great 22:23 things. 22:29 >> To partner with light bearers in spreading the gospel, visit 22:32 online at lightbearers.org or call up toll free at 22:35 877-585-1111. 22:40 You can also write to us at Light Bearers, 37457 Jasper 22:44 Lowell Road, Jasper, Oregon, 97438. 22:50 >> All right, guys, this is fun. 22:51 I'm enjoying this conversation. 22:53 It's been great to just pose a very -- what are you doing? 22:56 >> David, David? 22:57 >> I'm sorry. 22:58 >> Quickly documenting the experience. 23:00 >> Hey, this is exciting. 23:03 >> What was my smile like, was it good? 23:04 >> It was not good. 23:06 >> We're off to a good start, as I was saying and we're beginning 23:08 with a very basic fundamental question, what is the bible? 23:13 Now, we began to go in that direction but we really never 23:16 answered that question. 23:17 >> It's a loaded question. 23:19 >> It's a loaded question, well, what is the bible? 23:21 We sometimes refer to it -- 23:22 >> Why is it loaded? 23:23 >> -- Lots of people refer to it as the word of God. 23:25 >> Because the bible is so, it's loaded, man. 23:27 >> Is the bible the word of God? 23:29 Jeffrey, is it the word of God? 23:30 Can you say that? 23:32 People say that, is that an accurate description? 23:35 >> It's the word of God. 23:36 Absolutely, it's an accurate description but I think that 23:38 there is a distinction that we would make, though, and that is 23:40 that the bible is the word of God not in the sense that it's 23:45 God's pen where God physically dictated every single word, 23:51 every single sentence but the bible is God's thoughts 23:54 communicated through the agent of humanity. 23:56 >> Okay. 23:58 The bible is one book but it's composed of 66 books, for 24:03 example. 24:04 >> It's an encyclopedia. 24:05 >> Written by multiple different authors, some 40-some authors. 24:08 >> 40-ish authors. 24:09 >> Yeah, so are there different personalities, different 24:10 vocabularies, different cultural backgrounds? 24:15 When these prophets are writing God, as you said, is not 24:20 dictating through them, he's not telling them word for word what 24:25 to say but nevertheless it's the word of God. 24:27 In what sense is it the word of God, then? 24:29 >> Well, we go back to that whole idea of humanity. 24:31 The agent is humanity and because this is a conversation, 24:36 because scripture is a conversation with humanity, God 24:40 chose to use humans; God's thoughts communicated through 24:46 humanity and so there is a diversity. 24:48 >> There's a diversity; I see it. 24:50 >> There's a diversity here, absolutely. 24:52 >> You compare Isaiah for example to Joel or Joel to 24:55 Romans, you're going to see a different personality so the 25:00 prophet is writing the text, right? 25:03 The prophet is writing but how does scripture itself define 25:08 what it is? 25:09 >> I've got a verse here, can I read that? 25:12 >> Okay. 25:13 >> So I'm reading here from an New Testament book, second 25:15 Peter, I'm in chapter one and I'll just read verse 21, we 25:20 could read a lot of it here. 25:21 I'll read verses 20 and 21, it says, "knowing this first, that 25:23 no prophecy of scriptures of any private interpretation; for 25:28 prophecy never came by the will of man: but holy men of God 25:33 spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 25:35 So two things here, the first thing that he says is scripture 25:39 and the stories of scripture are not just to be interpreted 25:41 privately in the sense that this is my interpretation and this is 25:47 certainly what it means. 25:50 He says no because it's not a man-made document in the sense 25:52 of its origin. 25:53 >> Right, I like that. 25:55 >> He says holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the 25:57 spirit. 25:59 So think of it this way, the person who is best qualified to 26:00 tell us what this book is about is the one who originated, who 26:04 began the process by which the book was created and that's God. 26:09 >> Okay. 26:10 I want to compare that text to another and this is by Paul in 26:13 Second Timothy, chapter three and uses similar language but 26:19 just straightforward it says all scripture, verse 16 -- second 26:22 Timothy, three sixteen -- "All scripture is given by 26:25 inspiration of God" And it goes on to describe that it is 26:30 profitable for the formulation of teachings, et cetera. 26:34 >> So, what's the comparison? 26:35 >> Inspiration. 26:37 The text you were reading said that holy men were moved by the 26:41 Holy Spirit so something supernatural is going on but 26:44 something very human is going on at the same time. 26:46 >> That right there, what you just said is the key that must 26:50 be grasped. 26:52 Here, we're not talking so much about what the bible is about, 26:54 we'll get to that but the point you just made is huge. 26:57 It's a human document because humans are writing and it's a 27:01 divine document because God is inspiring. 27:05 God is not writing; God as an author is not represented. 27:08 It's not as though, oh, I like the way God put that. 27:11 There are small instances -- 27:13 >> Except in the places, yes. 27:14 >> -- I was just going to say, there are certain instances like 27:16 the ten commandments where God writes with his own finger but 27:18 you're exactly correct, Ty when we read Paul, we know it's Paul, 27:21 those of us that are familiar with scripture. 27:23 >> Paul's vocabulary, his way of saying things, yeah. 27:26 >> The way he writes. 27:27 When we read Moses, we know we're reading Moses, when we 27:30 read for example Ecclesiastes you know it's -- so the point is 27:32 the stylistic idiosyncratic personality types or personality 27:39 perspectives are certainly preserved in the text. 27:41 >> Why is that important, why is that -- why not just have a 27:44 dictation? 27:45 >> We're humans. 27:47 We are the audience, we are the addressee, we are the ones that 27:51 God is seeking to communicate with and because I'm a human I 27:54 have experienced this, right. 27:56 So the authors are coming to the table with their own 27:59 experiences, with their own intellectual background, with 28:01 their own cultural set up and it's a way to connect. 28:05 We connect with scripture because there is a human 28:08 component. 28:10 >> And we don't all connect with the same verse equally. 28:12 >> I love that, I love that. 28:13 >> Exactly. 28:14 >> Yeah, because you have certain personalities that might 28:16 connect. 28:17 I connect with certain people in the bible differently than 28:18 others. 28:19 And there's a fun game, I don't know if you've ever played this 28:20 but it's really awesome, you just open the bible anywhere, 28:21 you're with friends, whatever, you open the bible and you might 28:24 want to try it sometime and you open the bible and you just 28:26 start reading. 28:27 Just start reading -- 28:28 >> And then somebody has to guess. 28:30 >> Yeah, where are you or who is that talking. 28:31 >> And you can tell by the tone. 28:32 >> You can. 28:33 >> You have the Psalms in this high pitch, it's the C chord and 28:36 then you read Ecclesiastes and it's, the guy is depressed. 28:39 >> It's D minor or something. 28:41 >> For example, I connect with Song of Solomon because I'm a 28:43 romantic person. 28:44 >> [Laughter] 28:45 >> I have news for you, Jeffrey, news for you -- 28:47 >> Five years married, I connect with Song of Solomon. 28:52 >> The Latins do not have a corner on romance. 28:56 I just want you to know that. 28:57 I love the Song of Solomon as well. 29:00 >> You purposely through that in. 29:01 You knew you were going to say that all program. 29:03 You've been waiting to say that. 29:04 >> Hey, you brought up the Psalm of Solomon, I didn't but let me 29:07 say something about the Song of Solomon that I think is 29:09 interesting. 29:10 There was an argument when the canon was being composed, when 29:11 the books of scripture were being brought together and some 29:13 people were saying, some scholars were saying way back 29:17 when, hey, the Song of Solomon should not be included. 29:19 >> That's edgy. 29:21 >> That's edgy because it's basically, what is a Song of 29:24 Solomon? 29:25 It is a love Song written by Solomon to his girl. 29:29 >> Absolutely. 29:30 >> But somehow in that very, very romantic, beautiful love, 29:34 that intimate love something of the character of God is coming 29:39 through; something is being conveyed. 29:41 >> The fact that people had a problem with that I think is 29:44 profound because God is edgier than some people are comfortable 29:49 with. 29:50 >> Certainly. 29:51 >> I think that's powerful. 29:52 >> So you said something, Jeffrey, earlier that I wanted 29:54 to play off of and that is that part of what makes scripture so 29:57 accessible is that it's not just a series of propositional, 30:01 philosophical wisdom sayings, there are parts of scripture 30:05 that are like that but the scripture on the whole is 30:08 literally hundreds of stories. 30:12 I mean, the story of Jonah, the story of Moses, the story of 30:15 Jeremiah, the story -- and even though the clothes have changed 30:19 and the background has changed and the cities have changed and 30:21 the cars have changed and all of that, human drama, human 30:24 intrigue, human struggle, human -- it's the same then and here 30:28 we, we fast forward. 30:30 >> It's the same thing. 30:32 We're the same with different clothes on. 30:34 >> That's right. 30:35 You just change the backdrop and it's the same. 30:36 So even though the bible is an ancient book, it's an 30:37 exceedingly modern book in the sense that it interacts with the 30:42 modern human experience. 30:44 Human beings have not changed. 30:45 >> You know, there's a quick thing, a poem since I'm the 30:48 romantic one that says -- 30:50 >> You still think you're the romantic one. 30:53 >> I see a recurrent theme. 30:54 >> Facts are facts, I'm just saying. 30:56 There's a poem that says something like, give me a bible 30:57 and a candle and lock me up in a dark dungeon and I can tell you 31:05 what the whole world is doing which is heavy because -- 31:08 >> Hopefully not a dungeon, couldn't it just be like a room 31:10 or something? 31:11 >> Preferably since you're such a romantic. 31:13 >> But, that's heavy because it's communicating there that 31:18 the bible has an insight into the human experience. 31:21 >> Yeah, I get what you're saying. 31:24 I love it. 31:25 >> When I was 17 years old, that was the first time I ever 31:26 cracked a bible open for myself. 31:28 >> That was four years ago. |
Revised 2014-12-17