The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.67
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:03.70\00:00:05.53
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:05.57\00:00:07.90
Welcome to the New Journey,
00:00:07.94\00:00:09.50
a program about real life people
00:00:09.54\00:00:11.84
with real life testimonies
00:00:11.87\00:00:13.38
doing real life
ministries for Jesus Christ.
00:00:13.41\00:00:15.88
I'm your host,
Pastor Marquis Johns.
00:00:15.91\00:00:18.08
Join us for the New Journey.
00:00:18.11\00:00:19.95
My favorite gospel
is the Book of John.
00:00:54.65\00:00:57.79
And as John tells
the story of Jesus,
00:00:57.82\00:01:00.49
he highlights the fact
that Jesus is indeed God.
00:01:00.52\00:01:04.59
Now as he gets
into a conversation
00:01:04.63\00:01:06.73
in John 8 with the
Pharisees and the scribes.
00:01:06.76\00:01:09.30
There is almost in my
opinion the climactic moment
00:01:09.33\00:01:12.13
where the Bible says,
00:01:12.17\00:01:13.80
"Whom the son sets
free is free indeed."
00:01:13.84\00:01:19.67
Today with us is
Brother James Jones,
00:01:19.71\00:01:22.48
and after a long stint in prison
00:01:22.51\00:01:25.08
you are now
free and free indeed.
00:01:25.11\00:01:27.95
I certainly am.
00:01:27.98\00:01:30.39
Brother Jones, I
like us to start with,
00:01:30.42\00:01:32.15
just give us a background.
00:01:32.19\00:01:33.52
Tell us where you're
from, just tell us who you are?
00:01:33.56\00:01:36.69
Well, I was born and
raised in Baltimore City,
00:01:36.73\00:01:39.29
with family of nine.
00:01:39.33\00:01:40.80
I'm the oldest,
00:01:40.83\00:01:42.56
we came from a,
not a poor family,
00:01:42.60\00:01:45.23
but we were happy
00:01:45.27\00:01:46.60
and I didn't know my
dad though, that's all.
00:01:46.63\00:01:49.27
That was one of the
drawbacks in my life
00:01:49.30\00:01:51.61
that growing up
without knowing him,
00:01:51.64\00:01:54.24
and as time went on,
00:01:54.28\00:01:56.64
I begin to drift away
from what I knew to be right.
00:01:56.68\00:01:59.65
Okay.
00:01:59.68\00:02:01.02
I want to just real
quick I want to jump in here.
00:02:01.05\00:02:03.65
So you're the
eldest of nine kids?
00:02:03.69\00:02:06.42
Are you the only
child of the union
00:02:06.45\00:02:09.22
between your
father and your mother?
00:02:09.26\00:02:10.76
No.
00:02:10.79\00:02:12.13
No, so...
00:02:12.16\00:02:13.50
There's two of us. Two of us.
00:02:13.53\00:02:14.86
I have a sister
who is now passed away
00:02:14.90\00:02:16.83
and then I have a brother
and rest of them from other...
00:02:16.87\00:02:19.60
And secondarily,
00:02:19.63\00:02:21.20
when you say I
never knew my dad,
00:02:21.24\00:02:23.24
you never got to meet him,
you never got a conversation,
00:02:23.27\00:02:25.14
nothing?
00:02:25.17\00:02:26.51
So he and your mother
are together long enough
00:02:26.54\00:02:28.34
to produce three offspring
00:02:28.38\00:02:30.11
and then poof, he vanishes.
00:02:30.15\00:02:32.51
And so this, you were
able to recognize in hindsight
00:02:32.55\00:02:35.82
that this is a
turning point in your life,
00:02:35.85\00:02:37.59
where you don't grow
up with not even having,
00:02:37.62\00:02:41.52
you know, a phone
call here and there...
00:02:41.56\00:02:43.93
This is almost as
though he doesn't even exist.
00:02:43.96\00:02:47.03
Exactly right. Okay.
00:02:47.06\00:02:48.70
And I realize that my mom,
00:02:48.73\00:02:51.40
she did all she could do for us.
00:02:51.43\00:02:53.37
She worked as far as
she could provide for us.
00:02:53.40\00:02:57.21
And as I got older
00:02:57.24\00:02:59.47
I began to look
around me and see things.
00:02:59.51\00:03:03.85
And I made some really
bad choices as a teenager.
00:03:03.88\00:03:09.45
I begin to steal,
do things, skip school,
00:03:09.48\00:03:15.19
hang out with demonic
fellows and all these things.
00:03:15.22\00:03:18.19
But that's not so
bad, Brother Jones.
00:03:18.23\00:03:19.59
Well, I mean, you know,
skipping school and stealing,
00:03:19.63\00:03:23.16
that's not so bad,
00:03:23.20\00:03:24.53
but I hear you alluding
00:03:24.57\00:03:26.17
to that this is the beginning...
00:03:26.20\00:03:27.97
Beginning.
00:03:28.00\00:03:29.34
Of a journey on the
wrong side. Exactly, right.
00:03:29.37\00:03:31.44
Just like when you
talk about the drugs.
00:03:31.47\00:03:33.74
Gateway drugs.
00:03:33.78\00:03:35.11
The gateway drugs
that you start with.
00:03:35.14\00:03:36.98
Well, this was
what happened to me.
00:03:37.01\00:03:39.41
And then at the age of 15
00:03:39.45\00:03:42.45
I made a really bad choice,
00:03:42.48\00:03:46.12
which winded me up in prison.
00:03:46.15\00:03:48.62
So at 15, now
typically at that age
00:03:48.66\00:03:51.13
we can chalk it up to,
00:03:51.16\00:03:52.99
"Oh, I fell in
with the wrong crowd."
00:03:53.03\00:03:56.20
You already have
expressed some concerns
00:03:56.23\00:03:59.80
about your
father not being there.
00:03:59.83\00:04:01.67
What was it that caused
you at 15 to make a decision?
00:04:01.70\00:04:06.44
And we're going to
get to what that decision
00:04:06.47\00:04:07.94
is that landed you in prison?
00:04:07.98\00:04:09.31
Was it the wrong friends?
00:04:09.34\00:04:10.68
Was it... What was it?
00:04:10.71\00:04:12.05
I think it was a
combination. Okay.
00:04:12.08\00:04:14.12
You know, the friends,
00:04:14.15\00:04:17.95
you get around certain people
00:04:17.99\00:04:19.35
and they influence
your decision-making,
00:04:19.39\00:04:22.42
you know, and then
there was some hostility
00:04:22.46\00:04:25.26
in me, you know.
00:04:25.29\00:04:26.96
The fact that I
didn't have a dad
00:04:27.00\00:04:29.10
but then growing up in the
60s and we're talking about '65,
00:04:29.13\00:04:33.57
way back in the early 60s.
00:04:33.60\00:04:35.60
So things weren't quite
as the same as they are now.
00:04:35.64\00:04:38.07
But wait, I just want
to stop you right there.
00:04:38.11\00:04:40.08
Let's be honest.
00:04:40.11\00:04:41.44
A lot of people
have anger issues,
00:04:41.48\00:04:43.18
a lot of people have
grown up without their fathers.
00:04:43.21\00:04:45.65
What is it that
caused you to make this
00:04:45.68\00:04:48.62
what you feel was a
life altering bad decision?
00:04:48.65\00:04:52.99
Well, like I said, I
think of when I look back on,
00:04:53.02\00:04:55.82
it was a combination of things.
00:04:55.86\00:04:58.23
Because you hang
with the wrong people,
00:04:58.26\00:05:01.06
which influences you,
00:05:01.10\00:05:02.73
then you let that anger
00:05:02.76\00:05:06.03
cause you to make bad decisions.
00:05:06.07\00:05:07.90
And then ultimately,
when I look back on it,
00:05:07.94\00:05:10.41
it was just not knowing God.
00:05:10.44\00:05:14.74
And so now that brings us
to what was a bad decision?
00:05:14.78\00:05:19.21
Well, I wind up
going to prison for rape
00:05:19.25\00:05:24.12
and armed robbery at 15...
00:05:24.15\00:05:28.06
At 15 years of
age. At 15 years of age.
00:05:28.09\00:05:29.69
So and you said something early
about our relationship with...
00:05:29.72\00:05:35.66
You said something
earlier about our relationship
00:05:35.70\00:05:37.60
with the other side if you will.
00:05:37.63\00:05:43.17
And in the 60s racial profiling
00:05:43.20\00:05:46.98
was at its zenith.
00:05:47.01\00:05:50.38
The black male was
demonized and so at 15,
00:05:50.41\00:05:56.85
you find yourself in a situation
00:05:56.89\00:05:59.22
that we only have
read about in books.
00:05:59.25\00:06:02.09
A 15 year old young man charged
with rape and armed robbery.
00:06:02.12\00:06:07.40
Tell us about
what you were thinking?
00:06:07.43\00:06:08.76
I mean this, I
mean, I don't even want...
00:06:08.80\00:06:11.10
What was going on in your head
00:06:11.13\00:06:12.47
when you're taken into
custody for these charges?
00:06:12.50\00:06:14.60
Well, I was
scared, let me too formal.
00:06:14.64\00:06:18.04
I don't know what
the outcome was gonna be
00:06:18.07\00:06:22.91
until my mom,
00:06:22.94\00:06:27.08
she was able to
get us a cheap lawyer
00:06:27.12\00:06:30.62
and he came to sit down with me
and he explained things to me.
00:06:30.65\00:06:34.26
And he said, "James,
you're in big trouble."
00:06:34.29\00:06:36.39
And I was
saying, "What you mean?
00:06:36.42\00:06:37.76
I'm in big trouble."
00:06:37.79\00:06:39.13
I mean, you know, and he said,
00:06:39.16\00:06:40.70
"Well, they are gonna
waive your juvenile to that."
00:06:40.73\00:06:45.60
They want to
try you as an adult.
00:06:45.63\00:06:47.47
Mercy.
00:06:47.50\00:06:48.90
Which means now you've got to go
00:06:48.94\00:06:50.27
in adult court...
00:06:50.31\00:06:51.64
Mercy. For this crime.
00:06:51.67\00:06:54.21
He left it there, he didn't say,
00:06:54.24\00:06:56.44
"Well, you know,
00:06:56.48\00:06:57.81
you could be sentenced for life,
00:06:57.85\00:06:59.18
you could be sent
to death, you could..."
00:06:59.21\00:07:01.12
He didn't go into all of that.
00:07:01.15\00:07:04.25
But when I did go to
trial that's what happened.
00:07:04.29\00:07:09.72
Obviously, death sentence.
00:07:09.76\00:07:11.09
Mercy, mercy.
00:07:11.13\00:07:12.89
Now at 15...
00:07:12.93\00:07:14.26
Now wait, wait, wait, wait,
00:07:14.30\00:07:17.57
15 years of age accused
00:07:17.60\00:07:21.04
and now it seems
convicted of two felony charges,
00:07:21.07\00:07:27.11
you're sentenced to death?
00:07:27.14\00:07:28.64
A death.
00:07:28.68\00:07:30.01
You know, and I've been to jail,
00:07:30.05\00:07:31.48
you know, so
when they're reading,
00:07:31.51\00:07:33.58
you know, stand up, you
know, da-da da-da da-da,
00:07:33.62\00:07:35.92
and you're hoping against hope
that somehow this is a dream.
00:07:35.95\00:07:41.86
I mean, even just the situation
of getting sentence like,
00:07:41.89\00:07:45.29
"Okay, I'm going to
wake up at some point
00:07:45.33\00:07:46.70
and this is just
not gonna be real."
00:07:46.73\00:07:49.00
I can only imagine
that that experience for you
00:07:49.03\00:07:51.60
was intensified when
the judge says, "Death."
00:07:51.63\00:07:57.74
How, I mean, walk
the viewers through that?
00:07:57.77\00:08:03.35
I was thrown into a dream state
00:08:03.38\00:08:07.05
because after I left
00:08:07.08\00:08:08.42
after the
sentence was pronounced
00:08:08.45\00:08:10.79
and they walked me to a,
00:08:10.82\00:08:12.55
they put you in a
holding cell and I sit there
00:08:12.59\00:08:15.62
and I was
thinking, "Is this real?
00:08:15.66\00:08:17.79
Is this really happening?"
00:08:17.83\00:08:19.16
This is what I was
thinking in my mind
00:08:19.19\00:08:20.53
because I never
dreamed anything like this way.
00:08:20.56\00:08:25.70
And it was until they came
so I thought going to take you
00:08:25.73\00:08:29.00
to the Maryland penitentiary.
00:08:29.04\00:08:31.91
The things begin to,
00:08:31.94\00:08:33.94
I said, wait,
wait, wait, wait hold up,
00:08:33.98\00:08:36.38
what's going on here?
00:08:36.41\00:08:38.15
It wasn't until the night
00:08:38.18\00:08:39.51
that I was in the Maryland
penitentiary in that cell
00:08:39.55\00:08:41.62
by myself that
everything really crashed,
00:08:41.65\00:08:45.12
you know, and I
didn't know what to do,
00:08:45.15\00:08:49.82
I really didn't.
00:08:49.86\00:08:51.56
It wasn't until the next morning
00:08:51.59\00:08:53.80
that some of the other gentlemen
00:08:53.83\00:08:55.16
that were on death
row came to my door,
00:08:55.20\00:08:59.23
they said,
"James, this is not over,
00:08:59.27\00:09:00.70
you still have to change.
00:09:00.74\00:09:02.60
You can do things.
00:09:02.64\00:09:04.67
You can learn things,
00:09:04.71\00:09:06.17
some of us have
been up here for years."
00:09:06.21\00:09:10.11
But at the time, you
know, rest of went in by...
00:09:10.15\00:09:13.68
I'm going to be honest with you,
00:09:13.72\00:09:15.25
I don't even, I'm
at a loss for words.
00:09:15.28\00:09:20.56
What...
00:09:20.59\00:09:22.32
And I don't think
00:09:22.36\00:09:23.69
any of our
viewers can even imagine,
00:09:23.73\00:09:25.49
I mean, movies do a
bad job of depicting
00:09:25.53\00:09:29.83
what actually happens
when you're behind bars,
00:09:29.86\00:09:32.20
having been there myself.
00:09:32.23\00:09:33.64
But I just, I'm
trying to wrap my mind around
00:09:33.67\00:09:38.71
and give the
viewers an opportunity
00:09:38.74\00:09:40.61
to wrap their minds
around a 15 year old boy.
00:09:40.64\00:09:44.28
I mean, let's just be honest.
00:09:44.31\00:09:45.65
Let's be honest
00:09:45.68\00:09:47.02
even though the
courts have deemed you
00:09:47.05\00:09:48.38
worthy to be tried as a man.
00:09:48.42\00:09:49.75
You're a boy and
now you're on death row.
00:09:49.78\00:09:54.92
What is it like on death row?
00:09:54.96\00:09:58.93
I mean, I...
00:09:58.96\00:10:01.43
It's, well, you know,
00:10:01.46\00:10:03.16
you hear the word people
talk about self-preservation.
00:10:03.20\00:10:07.50
You're gonna, when
you put in a situation,
00:10:07.54\00:10:10.77
you're gonna look
out for you. Right.
00:10:10.81\00:10:12.67
Well, once these individuals
who were there said to me,
00:10:12.71\00:10:16.21
"There's options for you.
There's things you can do."
00:10:16.24\00:10:19.81
They brought me books,
they brought me legal books...
00:10:19.85\00:10:22.08
I wanna also paint a picture,
00:10:22.12\00:10:23.99
are you able to interact
00:10:24.02\00:10:25.35
when there is the
general population?
00:10:25.39\00:10:28.59
What is it like?
So explain that to us?
00:10:28.62\00:10:30.66
My only interaction
were with those gentlemen
00:10:30.69\00:10:32.33
that were on the
same tier with me.
00:10:32.36\00:10:33.90
They didn't let us
all out at the same time.
00:10:33.93\00:10:35.80
Okay.
00:10:35.83\00:10:37.17
So once someone would
come out they would come
00:10:37.20\00:10:39.20
and give me books,
and I began to read,
00:10:39.23\00:10:43.30
how to write writs,
how to do different things.
00:10:43.34\00:10:46.98
So I just decided,
00:10:47.01\00:10:48.68
"Well, I'm not
going to go out easy.
00:10:48.71\00:10:51.25
This gonna be battle."
00:10:51.28\00:10:52.95
So I just learn all I
could learn to prolong this.
00:10:52.98\00:10:58.35
And I begin to get my transcript
00:10:58.39\00:11:00.62
from the trial,
00:11:00.66\00:11:02.06
different things of that nature,
00:11:02.09\00:11:03.83
going over to my
transcripts seeing
00:11:03.86\00:11:05.96
what was done, wasn't done.
00:11:05.99\00:11:08.73
And I begin to fight
my space in the court
00:11:08.76\00:11:13.03
and after seven years,
seven years and 13 days,
00:11:13.07\00:11:17.41
my sentence was reduced to life.
00:11:17.44\00:11:18.94
Okay. Okay.
00:11:18.97\00:11:21.51
Now this is wonderful,
00:11:21.54\00:11:23.65
but I just want to
again paint the picture.
00:11:23.68\00:11:25.85
A kid grows up in Baltimore,
make some bad decisions,
00:11:25.88\00:11:28.62
stealing, petty
thefts, skipping class,
00:11:28.65\00:11:31.75
hanging out with
the wrong people, boom,
00:11:31.79\00:11:34.12
15 convicted of
rape and armed robbery.
00:11:34.16\00:11:39.03
Court system goes
00:11:39.06\00:11:40.40
through the
whole trial and boom,
00:11:40.43\00:11:43.26
mallet falls, death penalty.
00:11:43.30\00:11:47.17
It hits you the
night you're on death row
00:11:47.20\00:11:50.41
that you've just been
deemed worthy of death.
00:11:50.44\00:11:54.51
You begin to study at 15
00:11:54.54\00:11:58.11
and this is incredible
00:11:58.15\00:12:01.52
because at 15 you're now
looking over your own case
00:12:01.55\00:12:05.62
as though you're an attorney.
00:12:05.65\00:12:06.99
Yeah.
00:12:07.02\00:12:08.36
And fighting for
seven years to where you get
00:12:08.39\00:12:12.19
a death
sentence reduced to life.
00:12:12.23\00:12:17.93
And actually
well, all of the men
00:12:17.97\00:12:21.17
who were on
death row at that time,
00:12:21.20\00:12:24.01
there were seven of us
up on death row at the time
00:12:24.04\00:12:27.21
who were there for rape.
00:12:27.24\00:12:29.84
The other five was for murder.
00:12:29.88\00:12:32.48
Courts deemed
that those individuals
00:12:32.51\00:12:35.28
who were there for rape,
00:12:35.32\00:12:36.65
we didn't take a life,
00:12:36.69\00:12:38.89
we didn't and so they deemed
00:12:38.92\00:12:41.92
that this was cruel
00:12:41.96\00:12:43.69
and unusual punishment for them,
00:12:43.73\00:12:45.29
they want to take my life.
00:12:45.33\00:12:47.50
So that's how we got off.
00:12:47.53\00:12:50.33
I want to ask a quick question,
00:12:50.37\00:12:51.90
I mean, I don't
know if the viewers
00:12:51.93\00:12:53.34
are thinking like I am.
00:12:53.37\00:12:55.40
You just counted out
12 people on death row
00:12:55.44\00:12:59.07
when you were between
the ages of 15 and 22,
00:12:59.11\00:13:01.54
I'm assuming if I
do the math correctly,
00:13:01.58\00:13:03.65
how many of those
were actually put to death
00:13:03.68\00:13:05.71
that you know?
00:13:05.75\00:13:07.08
When I was there
only one. Only one?
00:13:07.12\00:13:08.62
Only one. Okay.
00:13:08.65\00:13:09.98
So here's what I want to do now.
00:13:10.02\00:13:11.35
I want you to...
00:13:11.39\00:13:12.72
You get the
sentence reduced to life,
00:13:12.75\00:13:14.96
walk us through life...
00:13:14.99\00:13:17.26
Now how long did
you end up serving?
00:13:17.29\00:13:19.56
Twenty two, 21 years
13 months, I mean 13 days.
00:13:19.59\00:13:25.53
Walk us through the
next, I mean, almost 'cause...
00:13:25.57\00:13:31.64
James, I'm
literally at a loss for words
00:13:31.67\00:13:34.18
and I don't think what
but the viewers may not.
00:13:34.21\00:13:36.14
I didn't pre-interview you,
I didn't talk to you before.
00:13:36.18\00:13:38.61
I'm getting this right
now as you're saying it.
00:13:38.65\00:13:42.72
For 21 years what
do you do in jail?
00:13:42.75\00:13:47.36
You try to survive.
And that's what I did.
00:13:47.39\00:13:50.99
I just conformed
to my environment.
00:13:51.03\00:13:54.63
The prison system is one
of, if I had to paraphrase like,
00:13:54.66\00:14:00.24
me taking you from here.
00:14:00.27\00:14:02.34
Taking you to Africa
00:14:02.37\00:14:05.17
and just dropping
you right in the heart
00:14:05.21\00:14:07.08
of the jungle and
say, "Now, make it."
00:14:07.11\00:14:10.28
That's what prison life
And the difference is I'm 37,
00:14:10.31\00:14:13.21
you were 15.
00:14:13.25\00:14:14.58
So you have to do, the
only thing that sheltered me
00:14:14.62\00:14:18.39
in the sense was
for those seven years
00:14:18.42\00:14:21.06
I didn't interact
with the population.
00:14:21.09\00:14:23.69
We stayed separate,
we were always separate.
00:14:23.73\00:14:26.33
After those seven years now
00:14:26.36\00:14:27.80
I was right in
the population now.
00:14:27.83\00:14:30.47
So I've got to fend for
myself. I got to do for myself.
00:14:30.50\00:14:34.37
Where's your family at?
00:14:34.40\00:14:35.74
All my family is still involved.
00:14:35.77\00:14:37.21
Now I'm talking about
while you were in jail.
00:14:37.24\00:14:40.51
Well, at that time my
mom was taking care to kid
00:14:40.54\00:14:43.41
and doing the best she could do,
00:14:43.45\00:14:44.78
she never visited me.
00:14:44.81\00:14:46.35
She would send me
money if she had it,
00:14:46.38\00:14:48.25
you know, write letters
and stuff of that nature
00:14:48.28\00:14:50.85
but there was
no visits from her.
00:14:50.89\00:14:53.32
And most of the kids
then my siblings were younger,
00:14:53.36\00:14:56.52
they couldn't
come and visit me so.
00:14:56.56\00:14:58.09
So you were
literally on your own.
00:14:58.13\00:15:00.06
It's not like you are in
jail, you get some visits,
00:15:00.10\00:15:04.43
people put money on your books
00:15:04.47\00:15:06.43
and you get, you know,
different types of visits.
00:15:06.47\00:15:09.30
Yeah.
00:15:09.34\00:15:10.67
None of that was
happening for you.
00:15:10.71\00:15:12.17
You were
literally 22 years of age
00:15:12.21\00:15:15.31
fending for yourself looking at,
00:15:15.34\00:15:18.51
this is my life, this is it.
00:15:18.55\00:15:19.91
I mean, and I know that in jail
00:15:19.95\00:15:22.55
what you have to
do almost immediately
00:15:22.58\00:15:24.22
as quickly as you possibly
00:15:24.25\00:15:25.59
can is get out of that
dream state and face that.
00:15:25.62\00:15:28.32
This is my reality,
00:15:28.36\00:15:29.69
that's the only way you survive.
00:15:29.72\00:15:31.06
That's right.
00:15:31.09\00:15:32.43
The only way you survive is...
00:15:32.46\00:15:33.80
Okay, I'm not going...
00:15:33.83\00:15:35.16
No, no, no, this is it,
00:15:35.20\00:15:36.53
I got to live in
this moment right now,
00:15:36.56\00:15:37.90
and so at 22 years of age
looking at life in prison,
00:15:37.93\00:15:42.00
I mean...
00:15:42.04\00:15:45.94
It's hard to put into words
00:15:45.97\00:15:47.78
but other than say
00:15:47.81\00:15:50.35
you either
conform or you get ate up.
00:15:50.38\00:15:56.99
That's the only
choices you got in prison.
00:15:57.02\00:15:59.59
So what I had to do
00:15:59.62\00:16:00.96
at a very early age to decide,
00:16:00.99\00:16:03.89
"Hey, am I going
to make this thing
00:16:03.93\00:16:06.80
or am I going to
let them let go."
00:16:06.83\00:16:10.13
The only advantage
00:16:10.17\00:16:11.50
I did have was
that being a young man,
00:16:11.53\00:16:13.84
I was always good at sports,
00:16:13.87\00:16:15.97
basketball, baseball,
and this kind of thing.
00:16:16.00\00:16:19.14
So once I got of
off the death row
00:16:19.17\00:16:21.91
and got into the population,
00:16:21.94\00:16:24.48
one of the gentlemen
came up to me and said,
00:16:24.51\00:16:26.78
then he called me slim then.
00:16:26.82\00:16:29.98
They were
forming a baseball team
00:16:30.02\00:16:32.22
and I joined the team.
00:16:32.25\00:16:33.59
Once they saw
00:16:33.62\00:16:34.96
that I could play
baseball pretty good,
00:16:34.99\00:16:36.96
I was pretty good at
basketball and these things,
00:16:36.99\00:16:39.09
well, I got a lot
of friends from that.
00:16:39.13\00:16:42.30
Right, right, right.
00:16:42.33\00:16:44.57
And having a lot of friends
and a lot of people knowing me,
00:16:44.60\00:16:47.67
it helped me
make my way through.
00:16:47.70\00:16:49.04
Right.
00:16:49.07\00:16:50.41
But then still I was faced
00:16:50.44\00:16:51.77
with some tough
decisions I had to make.
00:16:51.81\00:16:53.14
Of course, of course,
00:16:53.17\00:16:54.51
now when you're in jail
and specifically a lifer,
00:16:54.54\00:16:58.35
you know, when
you're looking at life,
00:16:58.38\00:17:00.48
there is the
opportunity to interact
00:17:00.52\00:17:01.98
with the
different religious system.
00:17:02.02\00:17:04.09
The Muslims are there,
00:17:04.12\00:17:05.45
specifically for
the African-American,
00:17:05.49\00:17:06.82
the Muslim is king almost.
00:17:06.86\00:17:09.26
And then I'm sure
there are Christian groups,
00:17:09.29\00:17:10.93
the Catholics, the
Pentecostals that come through.
00:17:10.96\00:17:14.20
Did you interface when...
00:17:14.23\00:17:15.86
If at all, did
you begin to interact
00:17:15.90\00:17:18.60
with the
different religious bodies
00:17:18.63\00:17:21.17
that were there?
00:17:21.20\00:17:22.54
Well, the Muslims primarily
00:17:22.57\00:17:24.14
'cause they were the
dominant religious group
00:17:24.17\00:17:27.64
in there at the time.
00:17:27.68\00:17:29.08
And it had because
00:17:29.11\00:17:30.81
it was connected
with being black.
00:17:30.85\00:17:32.85
Yeah, it was militant,
black nationalism, yeah.
00:17:32.88\00:17:36.02
I kind of got
involved with them,
00:17:36.05\00:17:38.92
but once they
started proclaiming
00:17:38.95\00:17:41.22
their message, it
didn't fit with me.
00:17:41.26\00:17:44.63
It just didn't fit
with me, so I said, "No,
00:17:44.66\00:17:46.83
this thing ain't for me.
00:17:46.86\00:17:48.20
This is not what
I want to get into."
00:17:48.23\00:17:51.30
So I just kind of
stayed away from them
00:17:51.33\00:17:53.57
and just stayed to myself.
00:17:53.60\00:17:55.04
I didn't join any
particular groups,
00:17:55.07\00:17:57.24
anything of that nature,
and I just been in my own way.
00:17:57.27\00:18:02.38
One thing I did all fast was,
00:18:02.41\00:18:05.91
I was determined
00:18:05.95\00:18:07.82
that I won't gonna let
anybody take advantage of me.
00:18:07.85\00:18:13.36
And it's played well for me
00:18:13.39\00:18:14.72
because in there not
having a lot of income,
00:18:14.76\00:18:18.63
not making any money,
you have to do things,
00:18:18.66\00:18:22.10
you have to come up
with ways to make money.
00:18:22.13\00:18:24.87
So what I did it, I
started making wine.
00:18:24.90\00:18:30.11
Thought of
making my homemade wine
00:18:30.14\00:18:32.04
because in prison
this was a big money.
00:18:32.07\00:18:34.51
Lucrative business,
yeah very lucrative.
00:18:34.54\00:18:37.75
Unfortunately, for those
of us who aren't making it,
00:18:37.78\00:18:40.12
you know, you don't get
your fruit juice anymore.
00:18:40.15\00:18:46.05
You only get
milk. There you go, yes.
00:18:46.09\00:18:48.29
Because the fruit juice
00:18:48.32\00:18:49.66
becomes very, very
expensive if you will.
00:18:49.69\00:18:52.53
Expensive, that's right.
00:18:52.56\00:18:53.90
But what I want to do
is, I want to jettison,
00:18:53.93\00:18:56.00
I want to kind of move to when,
00:18:56.03\00:18:59.33
if and if you had the
interaction with Christ,
00:18:59.37\00:19:02.60
I want to get there.
00:19:02.64\00:19:03.97
I think it was early on
even though I didn't know.
00:19:04.01\00:19:07.01
Right.
00:19:07.04\00:19:08.38
I wasn't pursuing him,
00:19:08.41\00:19:09.74
I wasn't,
00:19:09.78\00:19:11.11
the only knowledge I had of
him was from my grandparents,
00:19:11.15\00:19:13.78
you know, but as a young
being in prison into sports
00:19:13.82\00:19:18.42
and this nature,
00:19:18.45\00:19:19.79
I was smoking there
00:19:19.82\00:19:21.42
and I would read
a lot of the times.
00:19:21.46\00:19:23.22
And then whenever
we are talking about
00:19:23.26\00:19:24.59
how cigarettes was
connected to cancer
00:19:24.63\00:19:27.50
and all of this stuff,
00:19:27.53\00:19:29.36
so one day I was
sitting in my cell and I said,
00:19:29.40\00:19:31.03
"Man, no, I don't
want to get cancer."
00:19:31.07\00:19:34.47
You know, but how can I get off
the cigarette and I said this,
00:19:34.50\00:19:39.27
I said, "Lord, if you can get
these cigarettes out of my way,
00:19:39.31\00:19:42.68
I'd appreciate that."
00:19:42.71\00:19:44.05
Mercy.
00:19:44.08\00:19:45.41
That's all I said, 30
days now, 30 days later,
00:19:45.45\00:19:50.82
I no longer smoke.
00:19:50.85\00:19:52.42
Mercy, mercy.
00:19:52.45\00:19:54.02
Now I didn't connect all
this with the Lord at the time
00:19:54.06\00:19:56.26
'cause I didn't really know him
00:19:56.29\00:19:57.63
that well, you know what I mean.
00:19:57.66\00:19:58.99
Right, right, right, right.
00:19:59.03\00:20:00.36
And being in the
business of making liquor,
00:20:00.40\00:20:03.23
cigarettes is money,
that's what they use for money.
00:20:03.26\00:20:05.83
So a gallon of liquor
that's 30 packs of cigarettes.
00:20:05.87\00:20:10.51
Mercy.
00:20:10.54\00:20:11.87
So I had a whole
locker full of cigarettes
00:20:11.91\00:20:16.14
and I've never touched a
cigarette since that day.
00:20:16.18\00:20:18.65
Mercy, mercy. So
you see God working.
00:20:18.68\00:20:21.55
You see God working.
00:20:21.58\00:20:22.92
Well, I did...
00:20:22.95\00:20:24.29
Well, in the
hindsight, we see God working.
00:20:24.32\00:20:25.85
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:25.89\00:20:27.89
So I wanna fast
forward 21 years later.
00:20:27.92\00:20:33.03
Or better yet, I just feel like,
00:20:33.06\00:20:35.40
I don't want us to
move beyond those 21 years
00:20:35.43\00:20:38.03
without giving you
an opportunity to know
00:20:38.07\00:20:41.00
we see God working.
00:20:41.04\00:20:42.44
Was there an
interaction or a relationship
00:20:42.47\00:20:45.51
that you developed in jail
00:20:45.54\00:20:47.44
that led to the man
that we see in front of us,
00:20:47.48\00:20:50.35
the man who has
given his life to God?
00:20:50.38\00:20:52.21
Oh, yeah, yeah,
because like I said
00:20:52.25\00:20:53.78
with the cigarettes
00:20:53.82\00:20:56.99
being a lifer in
the penitentiary,
00:20:57.02\00:21:00.36
I did some stuff
that got me in a bad way
00:21:00.39\00:21:04.19
but then I was able to
land a pretty good job,
00:21:04.23\00:21:07.83
considering where I was.
00:21:07.86\00:21:09.20
I used to work in the,
00:21:09.23\00:21:10.63
what they called
then the power plant,
00:21:10.67\00:21:12.50
which needed the place
00:21:12.53\00:21:14.87
so I got minimum security staff.
00:21:14.90\00:21:17.64
I could move around in
the prison pretty free.
00:21:17.67\00:21:20.28
Kind of trusty.
00:21:20.31\00:21:21.64
That's why I was very
lucrative in selling my liquor
00:21:21.68\00:21:24.28
because they
didn't really check me
00:21:24.31\00:21:26.72
a whole lot of time.
00:21:26.75\00:21:28.52
And I, after
about nine years there,
00:21:28.55\00:21:33.49
I decided I
couldn't deal with it.
00:21:33.52\00:21:36.26
I got to find a
way to get out of here,
00:21:36.29\00:21:38.66
so I planned and escaped.
00:21:38.69\00:21:42.33
And, well, it didn't work
00:21:42.36\00:21:45.40
but I wind up spending
00:21:45.43\00:21:50.34
nine months in solitary confine.
00:21:50.37\00:21:55.38
After the nine months
00:21:55.41\00:21:56.75
I was released
and my counselor said,
00:21:56.78\00:22:00.28
"James, why are
you getting involved
00:22:00.32\00:22:02.35
in all of this stuff.
00:22:02.38\00:22:03.72
You got more going
for you, didn't it?
00:22:03.75\00:22:07.19
Just stay where you
are and do things right,
00:22:07.22\00:22:12.06
I might be able to
get you out of here."
00:22:12.09\00:22:13.96
Mercy.
00:22:14.00\00:22:15.86
And I looked at him, I
said, "How you gonna get me.
00:22:15.90\00:22:19.33
You're not a judge,
you're not the governor,
00:22:19.37\00:22:22.54
so how you gonna
get me out of here?"
00:22:22.57\00:22:25.84
But he said, "I got
some working for you."
00:22:25.87\00:22:28.74
So that kept me
straight for awhile.
00:22:28.78\00:22:31.48
Right.
00:22:31.51\00:22:32.85
I don't know how many here
00:22:32.88\00:22:34.22
might be familiar
with Hagerstown, MCTC,
00:22:34.25\00:22:37.45
well, that prison was
just beginning to open up
00:22:37.49\00:22:41.06
and they were looking
for people to send in.
00:22:41.09\00:22:44.66
I don't know how he did it
00:22:44.69\00:22:46.93
but he took my
name on the list to go
00:22:46.96\00:22:49.30
and this is a
lifer for me, lifer.
00:22:49.33\00:22:52.80
At that time I
had about 10 years in
00:22:52.83\00:22:55.87
and they called
me one day and said,
00:22:55.90\00:22:57.54
"James, we're
gonna transfer you.
00:22:57.57\00:23:01.48
We're transferring
you to Hagerstown."
00:23:01.51\00:23:05.61
And I went back to my cell
and I said, "Wait a minute,
00:23:05.65\00:23:08.18
why are they
transferring me to Hagerstown."
00:23:08.22\00:23:11.92
You know what I mean,
00:23:11.95\00:23:13.39
again not knowing
that the Lord was working
00:23:13.42\00:23:16.29
behind the scene, I didn't know.
00:23:16.32\00:23:19.29
Now, James, I
mean, your story is rich,
00:23:19.33\00:23:22.43
your story is very rich,
00:23:22.46\00:23:23.80
but I understand
that God is moving
00:23:23.83\00:23:28.20
when we could be...
00:23:28.24\00:23:29.90
I just want to get to...
00:23:29.94\00:23:31.27
When do you meet
him in preparation
00:23:31.31\00:23:34.24
for the eventual release,
00:23:34.28\00:23:35.88
you know, and
having spent 21 years,
00:23:35.91\00:23:37.85
because at some
point what I want to do is,
00:23:37.88\00:23:39.41
I want to give an opportunity
to address the viewers who,
00:23:39.45\00:23:42.38
someone who may be
in a similar situation
00:23:42.42\00:23:44.05
and we're fastly
approaching that time
00:23:44.09\00:23:46.69
where we have
to kind of wrap up.
00:23:46.72\00:23:48.09
So I want to really
get to where you met Christ
00:23:48.12\00:23:50.33
and what you're doing now
00:23:50.36\00:23:51.69
because those are two
very important things,
00:23:51.73\00:23:53.60
so if you can give
us that in a nutshell?
00:23:53.63\00:23:55.16
I met him at prerelease. Okay.
00:23:55.20\00:23:56.70
Probably prerelease
00:23:56.73\00:23:58.73
through our
prison ministry team,
00:23:58.77\00:24:02.84
they were coming in and
minister to us in prison.
00:24:02.87\00:24:05.94
What church were
they coming from?
00:24:05.97\00:24:07.48
New Life Seventh-day Adventist.
New Life Seventh-day Adventist.
00:24:07.51\00:24:08.84
Well, we weren't New Life
00:24:08.88\00:24:10.21
then, we were,
what was the name of it?
00:24:10.25\00:24:13.35
Anyway, it was
the Adventist church.
00:24:13.38\00:24:15.58
I have been there
00:24:15.62\00:24:17.09
and I was attending
any Christian services
00:24:17.12\00:24:19.59
that came in.
00:24:19.62\00:24:21.36
They let me come
in and I went over.
00:24:21.39\00:24:24.49
And the gentleman
00:24:24.53\00:24:25.86
that was leading
the team at the time,
00:24:25.89\00:24:28.43
he would come
in and do his thing
00:24:28.46\00:24:30.77
and at the end of
it, he would always say,
00:24:30.80\00:24:32.63
"Now look, just
don't always believe
00:24:32.67\00:24:34.70
what I'm saying.
00:24:34.74\00:24:36.30
Go back to your book and
open your Bible and see it.
00:24:36.34\00:24:39.07
Check me out, test me."
00:24:39.11\00:24:40.81
That's what he would always say.
00:24:40.84\00:24:42.44
And every time they came in,
00:24:42.48\00:24:44.15
I would listen to
what he was saying,
00:24:44.18\00:24:45.85
and I would go back to
my book, man, he's right,
00:24:45.88\00:24:49.22
what he's saying
is right on point.
00:24:49.25\00:24:51.09
Then I go back again,
he give me some more, man,
00:24:51.12\00:24:55.46
I think he's right here.
00:24:55.49\00:24:56.83
So that's how I
first came to know
00:24:56.86\00:24:59.96
because he's talked
about the power of Christ.
00:25:00.00\00:25:03.20
How you can change the
life and do different things.
00:25:03.23\00:25:05.20
And I was just
eating it all up but...
00:25:05.23\00:25:08.24
And then so...
00:25:08.27\00:25:09.60
So when did life become
just 21 years real quick?
00:25:12.77\00:25:17.68
When did it become...
00:25:17.71\00:25:19.05
Yeah, I mean,
you're looking at life
00:25:19.08\00:25:20.62
but you only served 21 years.
00:25:20.65\00:25:21.98
Yeah. When did
life become 21 years?
00:25:22.02\00:25:24.42
Well, I thought,
it became 21 years
00:25:24.45\00:25:26.45
because the Lord
saw fit to get me out.
00:25:26.49\00:25:28.32
Come on now. It was Him.
00:25:28.36\00:25:30.13
Mm-hmm.
00:25:30.16\00:25:31.49
There's no way I can
give anybody any credit
00:25:34.76\00:25:38.87
for me being out but the Lord,
00:25:38.90\00:25:41.17
because I still know men
that are still in prison today.
00:25:41.20\00:25:44.01
Who were in there with me
and they got 30-40 years there.
00:25:44.04\00:25:46.98
Right, mercy.
00:25:47.01\00:25:48.34
The Lord saw fit to
open the doors for me to go.
00:25:48.38\00:25:50.85
And so once you were out,
what have you been doing now?
00:25:50.88\00:25:54.95
What you've been
doing for the last...
00:25:54.98\00:25:56.32
Well, I'm involved
in prison ministry,
00:25:56.35\00:25:57.69
prison ministry is my ministry.
00:25:57.72\00:26:00.92
I joined a
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:26:00.96\00:26:02.29
once I got out and
then I met my wife.
00:26:02.32\00:26:06.23
Well, I met her
while I was incarcerated,
00:26:06.26\00:26:08.40
we met each other but
we didn't know we will be,
00:26:08.43\00:26:10.80
you know, we'll be like that.
00:26:10.83\00:26:12.17
She was coming in with
the prison ministry team,
00:26:12.20\00:26:14.97
but once I was
released I went joined a church.
00:26:15.00\00:26:19.54
I just poured my whole
heart and soul into the church.
00:26:19.57\00:26:23.18
The Lord said, I want
you to into prison ministry.
00:26:23.21\00:26:26.05
Not in prison,
in prison ministry?
00:26:26.08\00:26:27.42
In prison ministry.
00:26:27.45\00:26:28.78
Now the reason I say
00:26:28.82\00:26:30.15
that is because
when I left Poplar Hill,
00:26:30.19\00:26:32.85
the plan was already
00:26:32.89\00:26:34.76
put in place for me
to return back there.
00:26:34.79\00:26:36.99
Mercy.
00:26:37.03\00:26:38.53
Which the prison system
have a way of doing things.
00:26:38.56\00:26:42.96
When you release from a prison,
00:26:43.00\00:26:44.50
they don't want
you to come back.
00:26:44.53\00:26:45.87
Absolutely.
00:26:45.90\00:26:47.24
But the Lord had worked
it out that once I got out,
00:26:47.27\00:26:50.81
I could return back there.
00:26:50.84\00:26:52.24
And how long have
you been going back?
00:26:52.27\00:26:53.88
Since 1986. Since 1986.
00:26:53.91\00:26:56.04
How many years is
that? What's that?
00:26:56.08\00:26:58.81
It's about 26 years. Mercy.
00:26:58.85\00:27:01.28
So here's the story.
00:27:01.32\00:27:03.62
Mean streets of Baltimore,
00:27:03.65\00:27:04.99
bad decision at
15, hit with life,
00:27:05.02\00:27:08.26
hit with the death penalty,
00:27:08.29\00:27:10.53
go to jail from
17, from 15 to 22,
00:27:10.56\00:27:14.36
revisit your case,
get it reduced to life.
00:27:14.40\00:27:16.97
While you're in
there you try Islam,
00:27:17.00\00:27:18.60
you try bunch of things.
00:27:18.63\00:27:20.84
A freak accident leads you
to get transferred to another
00:27:20.87\00:27:23.97
where now New Life
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:27:24.01\00:27:26.71
is coming in and
they're doing prison ministries.
00:27:26.74\00:27:29.41
God begins to
engineer and work on you.
00:27:29.44\00:27:31.28
You give yourself to
Christ, next thing you know,
00:27:31.31\00:27:34.35
you're getting out of jail,
00:27:34.38\00:27:36.12
when you should
have died in there
00:27:36.15\00:27:37.79
or should still be in there,
00:27:37.82\00:27:39.69
and now God has
had you going back
00:27:39.72\00:27:42.49
for the last 26 years
to do prison ministries.
00:27:42.52\00:27:46.13
That is an awesome
story, one that is so awesome,
00:27:46.16\00:27:49.60
so remarkable as to
be almost unbelievable.
00:27:49.63\00:27:53.10
And, James, here's the
thing that story shows us
00:27:53.13\00:27:58.97
that God knows the
thoughts He thinks of us.
00:27:59.01\00:28:03.81
Thoughts of
peace and not of evil
00:28:03.85\00:28:05.85
and to bring us to
an expected a good end,
00:28:05.88\00:28:09.72
and this is not the end
00:28:09.75\00:28:11.15
because you've been
doing prison ministries.
00:28:11.19\00:28:13.15
The Lord has
blessed you with a wife.
00:28:13.19\00:28:14.76
The Lord has blessed
you with the ministry
00:28:14.79\00:28:16.42
and blessed you
with a new lease on life.
00:28:16.46\00:28:18.83
but He has introduced you
00:28:21.90\00:28:24.63
and now through
you introduced us
00:28:24.67\00:28:26.23
to your New Journey.
00:28:26.27\00:28:28.07
I want to thank you
for being with us, James.
00:28:28.10\00:28:29.87
Your story is remarkable,
and if you were blessed,
00:28:29.90\00:28:33.74
just let's continue
to pray for the ministry
00:28:33.78\00:28:35.68
that God has
blessed Brother Jones with.
00:28:35.71\00:28:37.05
Amen. Amen.
00:28:37.08\00:28:38.41
God bless you.
00:28:38.45\00:28:39.78