Welcome to The New Journey:
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the program where we
meet real-life people
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where real-life testimonies
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where real-life work
and ministries for Jesus.
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Have you ever heard of
the many secular biker clubs
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of the world?
We're going to meet a man
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that was an associate
of one of the biker clubs
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but now serves and
rides for Jesus Christ.
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I'm your host Aaron Chancey.
Come join us on The New Journey.
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Our guests today are
George and Vera Whirley.
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Now ya'll are both involved
in a very exciting ministry.
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Can you tell us a little bit
about your prison ministry work
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that you're involved in? Well
I'm the national vice president
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for Unchained Ministries,
and I've been involved in prison
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ministries 23 years or so.
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I say 23 years or so...
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I started
ministry while incarcerated
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so I just... It just
filtered down me because I knew
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that I needed to do
something. And right away
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I knew that I was
saved in prison and I knew
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what a struggle men had
while they were incarcerated.
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So I knew that that was
really going to be my ministry
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because I started
ministering right away.
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As soon as I
gave my life to Jesus
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I began
ministering the Word of God.
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OK. And Unchained Ministry
is what gave me a start.
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And they're the ones that
actually led me to the Lord.
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OK. Now another entity
that Unchained Ministry has
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is a biker club. Can you
tell us a little bit about the
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biker club ministry?
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Well, the biker ministry
is... we... we do a lot of,
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uh, parties with
secular motorcycle clubs
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and we work with an organization
called Abate of Indiana
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which is American
Bikers Aim for Education - OK -
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which now... ABATE
is all over the world.
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But we do that type of thing.
We... I have a big tent. OK.
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We set up a big tent. And
I say big tent: it's 40x40
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and I set it up. We
give away free coffee, water.
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Minister to folk throughout the
weekend. Those type of things.
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OK. So your biker
ministry you utilize
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to minister to the secular
bikers... biker clubs, correct?
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Absolutely. And now we
minister to all type of folks -
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OK - as far as the
motorcycle thing goes.
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You know, you may find us
at just a typical poker run.
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OK. You may find us
even at a clubhouse.
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All right. But our
whole focus is to see that
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Jesus is proclaimed
no matter where we're at
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or what we're doing there...
what setting we might be in. OK.
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If we're at the clubhouse,
we're sharing Jesus. OK.
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That's what our whole
goal is is to let people know
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about Jesus Christ and
what He has done in our lives.
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Amen. So that's the
number one thing for us.
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Now you told me that your
ministry was basically two fold
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where you work inside of
the prisons as well as you work
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outside of the prisons. What's
some of the work that you do
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inside of a prison?
Well inside the prisons,
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uh, our focus there is
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we service 47 jails and prisons
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throughout the state of Indiana.
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And now I have 200 parishioners
or so that work under me
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that work in the different
jails and prisons and stuff.
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But what we do there is
we do a lot of counseling.
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We do a lot of church services,
that type of stuff. OK.
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So Ms. Whirley, you're also
involved in prison ministries.
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And can you tell us a little bit
about the involvement that you
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have with prison ministries?
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I attend a local,
small jail in our county
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and I go once a month.
Our ministry has someone
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there once each week
and I go in once a week -
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OK - or once a month
and we do a church service.
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And then we try to also...
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Here recently we had an
opportunity to place people
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in a half-way house that
we've been able to open up,
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and we try to
direct people there.
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We just try to be one-on-one
with the people and help them
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with the needs that
they have that we know
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that we can help them with. OK.
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So the work that
ya'll are involved in is
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in both male and
female facilities.
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Can you tell us a little
bit, Ms. Whirley, how it is
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going into... as a female...
going into both male facilities
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as well as female facilities
because there may be some
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viewers that are
interested in getting involved
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in prison ministries...
some ladies that are interested
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in getting involved
in prison ministries
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but they may have a fear of
going inside a male facility
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or female facility. Can you
tell us a little bit about that
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experience? Well
I've been going into the
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jails and prisons since 1995.
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I have never been
incarcerated, so my first
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time visiting was
a little different.
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But I knew in my heart
that God had placed me there.
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OK. And I passed any concerns
by just trusting in Him.
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And once I got there, your
mind isn't on where you're at...
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it's on what you're doing.
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And I always had a peace,
and I've always had a peace
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and there's never
been... no complications.
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I just know that if you
know that's where the Lord
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is leading you, just trust
in Him and it'll all be OK.
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So it's a great experience being
involved in prison ministries?
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Yes. Well, you know, viewers,
if you're interested in getting
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involved in prison ministries
you need to get involved.
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If you feel that the Lord is
calling you to prison ministry,
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get involved. Mr.
Whirley, you yourself
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have been on the other
side of the fence per se.
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Prison work... you
were incarcerated before.
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You've done time before.
Can you tell us a little bit
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about your early life -
your early home life - that
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may have led to
being incarcerated.
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Well you know, early in my life,
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uh, my father was
in the armed services.
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And he was transferred
out of the house a lot,
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so that just left
my mother at home.
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And my mother got
tangled up in some
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unlawful deeds and it
led me into the same thing.
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OK. And she had, because
of her and my father's issues,
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she had taught me that this is
what I was going to have to do -
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OK - as a survival issue.
And, you know, that was to
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sell drugs and that
type of stuff in my life.
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And that's how I was
going to actually make a living.
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OK. And you know I
was encouraged that way,
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you know, so even at
an early age it stopped me
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from trying to
seek an education - OK -
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and doing the right stuff
in life, you know, because
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I was following after
my mother's footsteps.
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OK. And I say it like
that... I'm not giving any blame
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to my mother. I believe
that it was always the sin
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that was in my life that
detoured me from being able
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to, uh, have a real life.
Because the devil's trying to...
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trying to affect my life
in the very beginning. Yeah.
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And he did a good
job at it, you know,
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of detouring me
from being able to be...
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You know, 'cause at 8 years
old I was incarcerated. Yeah.
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Wow. And being 8 years old I was
obviously a real little child.
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Um-hmm. And to be
incarcerated in any place
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other than the home
where you were "growed up" at
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or raised, you know, is a
great change in your life.
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But you know, through
that... I mean it was just
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an ongoing process that
just led from one incident
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to another
incident to another incident
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in and out of jails and prisons,
you know, till I got to the age
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of about 27 years old.
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So that had to be a
pretty difficult experience.
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You said from about 8 years old
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to 27 years old you
spent time in the penal system.
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That had to be very difficult.
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Oh absolutely! I mean I
thought... I thought that was
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a way of life. Yeah, OK.
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You know, because
even early in life I had
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one of these thoughts and
goals because everybody has
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a thought that something...
You know, there's...
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I believe that
there's children that wakes up
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in early life going
like: "I want to be a doctor. "
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"I want to be a
nurse. " Well my thought
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was "I want to go out
like Machine Gun Kelly or, uh,
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you know, Bonnie and Clyde.
" You know, and that's what
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because of the
way I was being raised
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that was the train of thought.
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The people that I
associated myself with,
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the lifestyle that I was
leading, the people that I
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was there with being incar-
cerated in different places -
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OK - you know, that's just
the way that I... that was the
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train of thought that I
had going on in my mind.
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OK. So with wanting to be like
the Bonnie and Clydes and the
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Kelly, you kind of gravitated
to this life of crime.
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Can you talk a little bit about
some of the charges that...
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that you were
convicted of from time to time?
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Well I was convicted of
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possession of a controlled
substance which was drugs.
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OK. You know,
cocaine, marijuana,
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pills, that type of thing.
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Were you involved in
using drugs and alcohol?
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Oh yeah, I was a user
'cause I was a cocaine freak -
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OK. And I use that
term... I was a "junkie"
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and I lived on the
street most of the time.
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OK. There was a time in my
life where I felt that I had it
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all going on and my pockets
were lined with a lot of cash.
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I drove nice cars. OK.
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That type of thing, you
know? And I thought that
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that's the way
everything was going to be.
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And it came to a
point where my using
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put all that selling to a stop,
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you know, because I was
using more than I was selling.
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So that just ended up
causing me to be incarcerated.
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You know, it's
interesting that the Bible said
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in Hebrews 11:25
that sin is pleasurable
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but it's only for a short
season. We have fun with it;
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we delve into it, but
the Bible says it's only for
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a short season. Can
you testify to that?
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Oh absolutely, you
know. And you use the term
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"a short season. " I
always had a thought in my mind
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if I didn't get my life
on track by the age of 27
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that I would never reach
any goal that I could ever
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set for myself. Not
that I had any goals
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but there was a point in my life
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in the last 2 years... about
the age of 24, 25 years old...
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that I had begun realizing
I was raised in a house
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with 13 children. And I
had... One of my brothers said
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"If you don't reach the
goal at about 27 years old
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you're never going to
be successful in nothing. "
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And that always stuck with me.
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So about the age of 24
I started thinking about
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the way my life
had been run. OK.
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Different motorcycle
clubs that I may have run with.
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Different situations
that I was tangled up in. OK.
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I was tangled
up in prostitution.
00:11:14.98\00:11:16.86
I was tangled up in
drug use, selling drugs.
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I'd been busted several times
for driving while under the
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influence. In the state of
Indiana I was the very first man
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to ever get charged as a
felony for drunk driving.
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And they made an example
of me. Before it was over with
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I got a 12-year
sentence for just drunk driving.
00:11:34.24\00:11:36.82
So you know there was a lot of
things that played in my life -
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that... a lot of sin
if I can say... that was
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in my life that was
totally trying to take me down.
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OK. The devil tried
early, continuously,
00:11:48.76\00:11:51.79
to take me out
of this world. OK.
00:11:51.99\00:11:53.32
So you said that you were in-
volved in different biker clubs.
00:11:53.52\00:11:56.94
Now I've heard a little bit of
information about biker clubs.
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And, you know, many
people have the idea that
00:12:00.40\00:12:02.44
the biker clubs are some
infamous, hardened biker clubs.
00:12:02.64\00:12:06.67
Could you give us a
little insight into these
00:12:06.87\00:12:08.68
various biker clubs?
How it is to be involved
00:12:08.88\00:12:11.14
in them. Some of the
things that may go on.
00:12:11.34\00:12:12.96
Can you talk a
little bit about that?
00:12:13.06\00:12:14.22
Well you know, all these
different clubs - secular clubs
00:12:14.33\00:12:17.67
in the world - they all have
goals. They all have bylaws.
00:12:17.77\00:12:22.14
And each individual has
to deal with whatever laws
00:12:22.34\00:12:26.55
in the specific clubs.
OK. I mean, for instance,
00:12:26.75\00:12:30.04
number one in a club
is the patch that you have
00:12:30.24\00:12:33.23
on your back. OK.
Your family is secondary.
00:12:33.33\00:12:36.85
OK. Your number one
family is the club itself
00:12:36.88\00:12:40.67
and your colors are your most
valuable responsibilities. OK.
00:12:40.87\00:12:45.71
But, you know, to say
that they are all notorious?
00:12:45.81\00:12:48.71
You can't say that each
and every one of them are
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because I have seen so many
great deeds that some of these
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individuals
have done. Toy rides.
00:12:55.28\00:12:59.08
OK. You know, to draw toys
for children at Christmastime
00:12:59.28\00:13:04.66
or to raise money for this
certain cancer project or...
00:13:04.86\00:13:09.30
You know, and I've seen a lot
of things out of these young men
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that you just don't...
young and old men that you
00:13:13.10\00:13:15.20
just really don't expect. OK.
00:13:15.30\00:13:17.02
But yes, in the all, yes they're
all... they all have a goal.
00:13:17.22\00:13:21.57
You know, that's interesting
that you should say that
00:13:21.77\00:13:23.66
some of the biker gangs
they do things like toy drives
00:13:23.86\00:13:26.78
and things like that.
I guess for most people
00:13:26.98\00:13:29.28
on the outside looking
in we don't see all of that
00:13:29.48\00:13:32.05
that goes on. We just
see... we hear of the crime
00:13:32.25\00:13:34.81
on the news or we see 50 bikers
riding down the road on their
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Harley Davidson's with
their leather jackets on.
00:13:38.99\00:13:41.21
And in our mind because of
what we see we tend to think
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"OK, these are some
hard... some real hard people. "
00:13:44.69\00:13:46.84
But we don't see on
the outside looking in
00:13:47.04\00:13:48.81
we don't see all
the good that they do.
00:13:49.01\00:13:50.27
But you just testified to
the fact that some of them
00:13:50.47\00:13:52.64
actually do have good ministries
and things like that. Correct?
00:13:52.85\00:13:56.64
Sure, and they all have
00:13:56.74\00:13:59.47
a lifestyle that's so much
different than the regular...
00:13:59.77\00:14:05.12
I should say the
"regular people" of the world.
00:14:05.32\00:14:07.27
Obviously. But
we know for a fact
00:14:07.47\00:14:09.87
that they're all reachable.
00:14:10.07\00:14:11.79
You know, the Word
of God has taught me...
00:14:12.00\00:14:14.11
I've been saved
about 23 years or so now
00:14:14.31\00:14:16.56
and the Word of God has
taught me that every man, woman,
00:14:16.76\00:14:20.36
and child is valuable
to the kingdom of God.
00:14:20.46\00:14:23.60
You know, and this is
a class of people... OK.
00:14:23.90\00:14:27.43
You know, the class of
people that I deal with is
00:14:27.53\00:14:29.61
I want to call
"the forgotten world. "
00:14:29.72\00:14:32.35
OK. And the forgotten world
to me is motorcycle people,
00:14:32.55\00:14:35.20
OK, guys that's locked
up, men and women that's
00:14:35.40\00:14:37.85
locked up that's in the
penal system that nobody
00:14:37.95\00:14:43.40
has anything to do
with. You know my family...
00:14:43.60\00:14:45.99
I got saved in the last
year of my incarceration -
00:14:46.19\00:14:50.77
OK - at the Indiana State Farm.
00:14:50.97\00:14:53.00
And my "family" right off
the bat they said that I was
00:14:53.20\00:14:57.62
"going through a fad. " Uh-huh.
00:14:57.72\00:14:59.40
And the fad that I was going
through was I accepted Jesus.
00:14:59.60\00:15:02.24
And they've heard so
many different wild stories
00:15:02.34\00:15:04.97
about that type
of thing. Uh-huh.
00:15:05.07\00:15:06.30
That I had jailhouse religion.
00:15:06.50\00:15:08.07
Well that jailhouse religion
now has gone on for 23 years.
00:15:08.17\00:15:10.61
Oh yeah. And I still probably
have some family members
00:15:10.81\00:15:13.34
that's standing on
the outside saying:
00:15:13.44\00:15:15.12
"Something's going to
happen. He's going to snap
00:15:15.32\00:15:16.94
and he's going back
to the same old way. "
00:15:17.15\00:15:18.72
Well I don't have
anything to turn back to.
00:15:18.92\00:15:20.69
Yeah. You know, my life
now is to serve Jesus 24/7.
00:15:20.90\00:15:25.13
OK. You know, no
matter what I'm doing.
00:15:25.27\00:15:27.09
You know, we do
motorcycle ministry.
00:15:27.19\00:15:29.48
We do jailhouse ministry.
00:15:29.68\00:15:33.94
But you know, we do
even more than that.
00:15:34.15\00:15:35.99
Back when Katrina hit I
remember many times in my life
00:15:37.37\00:15:42.47
when I went to bed hungry.
00:15:42.67\00:15:43.72
You know, 'cause at home I had
five sisters and they ate first.
00:15:43.92\00:15:47.36
OK. I always seen
to that every meal.
00:15:47.57\00:15:49.13
And if there was anything
left over then it was all right.
00:15:49.43\00:15:52.23
OK. But I went to
bed hungry several nights
00:15:52.43\00:15:55.79
you know throughout a
month. So what I would do...
00:15:55.99\00:15:58.68
what my number one goal in life
is to make sure that children
00:15:58.98\00:16:03.12
don't go hungry.
OK. For several years
00:16:03.22\00:16:06.23
I would gather up food
and I would have food drives.
00:16:06.33\00:16:09.77
I would set up a
tent... a 60 by 40 tent -
00:16:09.97\00:16:13.13
wow - and have tent revivals
and I would have people that
00:16:13.33\00:16:16.15
had clown ministries. OK. And
I had this buddy of mine that
00:16:16.35\00:16:19.25
had a hot air balloon. OK.
We would just sit all this stuff
00:16:19.35\00:16:22.51
together. I have another buddy
that has a catering service.
00:16:22.61\00:16:25.02
He would bring
groceries and food
00:16:25.22\00:16:27.83
and different food
banks would give me groceries
00:16:28.03\00:16:30.61
and we'd take 50,
60,000 pounds of food.
00:16:30.71\00:16:32.76
And we'd bag them up. Get
a whole bunch of volunteers
00:16:32.97\00:16:35.11
and bag all that stuff up
and go to a low rent district -
00:16:35.31\00:16:39.53
OK - you know, in Indianapolis
or a surrounding place
00:16:39.73\00:16:43.30
and we'd just put
all this together.
00:16:43.51\00:16:45.90
And we'd make it a one-day thing
but it usually took just about
00:16:46.11\00:16:49.20
6-8 hours from the
time we started to the end
00:16:49.30\00:16:52.15
of the program for that
day. But it would take us
00:16:52.25\00:16:54.95
a month to get everything to-
gether to make all this happen.
00:16:55.15\00:16:58.15
But our number one
goal was to feed somebody -
00:16:58.35\00:17:01.26
OK - give them a sack full
of groceries and most of all...
00:17:01.56\00:17:03.83
You know Jesus, when
He was out in the desert,
00:17:04.04\00:17:06.77
the Word of God said He
fed 5,000 men plus - yes -
00:17:06.97\00:17:10.97
Are you saying
women and children?
00:17:11.17\00:17:12.49
Yeah, He still had
women and children. Oh, yeah.
00:17:12.59\00:17:14.37
And you know back in those days
some of them had 2 or 3 wives.
00:17:14.57\00:17:17.02
But the whole story is every one
of them got something to eat.
00:17:17.22\00:17:20.66
Oh, yeah. And when it was
all said and done there was
00:17:20.86\00:17:23.52
enough to fill five baskets.
You know what I'm saying?
00:17:23.56\00:17:25.78
Oh, yeah. So that's
what we're all about.
00:17:25.88\00:17:28.57
OK. Ministering to the needs.
00:17:28.87\00:17:30.03
Ministering to the needs.
It doesn't make any difference
00:17:30.23\00:17:32.31
if it's motorcycle
people or jail people.
00:17:32.41\00:17:34.48
OK. My goal is to see
families joined together
00:17:34.68\00:17:39.28
in the Word of God. And
without... You know, some people
00:17:39.48\00:17:42.33
don't understand what this
Word - the true Word of God -
00:17:42.53\00:17:46.87
can do for a whole
household. That's right.
00:17:47.07\00:17:49.32
That's the gospel. You know
one little thing I used to do
00:17:49.52\00:17:52.06
in Johnson County
where I'm the chaplain at
00:17:52.26\00:17:56.14
was my goal was to see
families come together -
00:17:56.34\00:17:59.85
OK - and hear the Word of God.
00:18:00.05\00:18:01.91
So I started a little program
in a work release center.
00:18:02.21\00:18:04.93
And this is what they told me,
said: "Well as soon as you fill
00:18:05.13\00:18:07.63
this room we'll
give you a bigger room. "
00:18:07.83\00:18:10.03
And what I was wanting
them to do is let me take
00:18:10.23\00:18:11.80
the families to a local church
and get everybody involved.
00:18:11.90\00:18:15.89
Well, there were 110 people
in this work release center
00:18:16.09\00:18:18.27
and they wouldn't... they said
"Well they won't all attend. "
00:18:18.47\00:18:21.68
OK. Well anybody that's
incarcerated is going to find
00:18:21.88\00:18:24.69
a moment. If he can
find a moment to get free,
00:18:24.89\00:18:27.09
he's going to get
free. That is true.
00:18:27.29\00:18:28.94
So we started with
just a handful of people.
00:18:29.04\00:18:30.74
The first night
was 11 people. OK.
00:18:30.84\00:18:32.29
And that was on a Friday night.
00:18:32.49\00:18:34.33
And then the second Friday
night we had about 45 people.
00:18:34.53\00:18:37.67
So the third Friday night
they said: "You need to find
00:18:37.87\00:18:39.61
a church. " Wow!
So we found the church
00:18:39.71\00:18:41.87
which was right
next door - um-hmm -
00:18:41.97\00:18:44.13
and we started having services.
00:18:44.33\00:18:45.66
And a woman that was
with our ministry, she said:
00:18:45.86\00:18:48.92
"You know, we ought to
start feeding these folks. "
00:18:49.13\00:18:50.64
OK. And before we
realized it in just a few weeks
00:18:50.94\00:18:54.03
we had gone from 10 or 11
people in a little bitty room
00:18:54.23\00:18:57.74
to 165 people every week. OK.
00:18:57.94\00:19:01.56
That was maybe mothers and
fathers and aunts and uncles
00:19:01.76\00:19:06.17
and babies that would
come to those services - Amen -
00:19:06.37\00:19:10.01
thinking that the
reason they were coming was to
00:19:10.21\00:19:13.66
fellowship with the
spouse or their mother that
00:19:13.76\00:19:17.16
was
incarcerated or their father.
00:19:17.26\00:19:18.79
But what would end
up happening was...
00:19:18.99\00:19:20.56
I had this one man that
followed me from institution
00:19:20.66\00:19:23.62
to institution. And he would
always come to me and say...
00:19:23.83\00:19:26.39
You know, he
said... They call me midget.
00:19:26.42\00:19:28.75
OK. Said: "Midget, I didn't
come tonight to get saved. "
00:19:28.95\00:19:33.09
OK. He said: "But I just came
to see if you're still doing
00:19:33.29\00:19:35.70
the same work. " And
he did that in 5 or 6
00:19:35.80\00:19:38.91
different facilities over
about an eight-year period.
00:19:39.02\00:19:41.47
OK. Well one
night in Johnson County
00:19:41.77\00:19:44.11
at this work release center
where we were having this church
00:19:44.31\00:19:47.17
he came to me and he said...
00:19:47.37\00:19:49.96
He said: "Midget... "
He said: "You know... "
00:19:50.16\00:19:51.81
he said "still again I
didn't come to get saved. "
00:19:52.01\00:19:54.70
OK. He said: "But tonight
my whole family's here" -
00:19:54.91\00:19:57.16
Amen - "and it's the first
time we've had an opportunity
00:19:57.36\00:19:59.26
to be in church. "
Amen. The next Friday night
00:19:59.46\00:20:02.31
when an altar call came,
00:20:02.62\00:20:04.79
the song was over and
all the words were sung
00:20:04.99\00:20:07.87
and all the words were preached,
00:20:08.07\00:20:09.27
this man... and he had
two daughters and his wife...
00:20:09.57\00:20:13.66
OK... they all got up
and walked to the front -
00:20:13.86\00:20:16.89
Amen - with a group
full of other individuals.
00:20:17.19\00:20:18.86
OK. He looked at me
and he said: "Midget... "
00:20:19.16\00:20:20.92
he said "I'm ready. "
00:20:21.12\00:20:22.36
You know, and from
that day to this day
00:20:22.66\00:20:25.26
which is about 11 or 12 years, I
have never seen that man again.
00:20:25.46\00:20:29.06
OK. So I believe in my heart
00:20:29.36\00:20:31.47
that the Word of God pierced his
00:20:31.67\00:20:33.69
and his mind opened
and his ears became clean
00:20:33.89\00:20:36.64
and he heard the
true Word of God. OK.
00:20:36.84\00:20:38.51
And something inside of
him snapped and he said:
00:20:38.81\00:20:41.49
"I need what that guy's got. "
00:20:41.59\00:20:42.90
OK. And we were capable
of sharing that with them.
00:20:43.20\00:20:45.91
Now you have been involved
in ministry for about the last
00:20:46.14\00:20:48.84
27 years. And
actually your last charge
00:20:48.94\00:20:52.97
kind of led to you
changing your life.
00:20:53.11\00:20:55.60
Can you tell us a little
bit about your last charge?
00:20:55.70\00:20:57.60
What ended up happening?
00:20:57.80\00:20:59.06
Well my last charge
was attempted murder. OK.
00:20:59.36\00:21:02.01
And I didn't pre-plan
to take anybody's life -
00:21:02.21\00:21:06.71
OK - or attempt to.
00:21:06.91\00:21:08.62
I was... Early in life
I had been incarcerated
00:21:08.92\00:21:12.76
in a prison that
was a hard-core prison.
00:21:12.96\00:21:17.46
And when you would go
in A and O. And A and O was
00:21:17.77\00:21:20.76
admission and orientation. OK.
00:21:20.96\00:21:23.68
And when you would go in there
there would be a setting of
00:21:23.82\00:21:25.87
maybe 165 to 225 men.
00:21:25.97\00:21:28.61
And they were all going
through the same thing you were.
00:21:28.81\00:21:31.17
You just arrived at the
prison. You were real nervous
00:21:31.27\00:21:34.54
and had a lot of anxieties
about what was going on.
00:21:34.74\00:21:37.75
And there were always
problems and issues. OK.
00:21:37.95\00:21:40.66
And they were
already mad about being there
00:21:40.96\00:21:43.77
and they didn't think it was
their fault. Nobody was guilty.
00:21:43.97\00:21:46.30
Everybody was innocent.
Everybody blaming somebody else.
00:21:46.50\00:21:48.40
Everybody blaming somebody else.
00:21:48.50\00:21:49.90
But there were always a
lot of scuffles going on - OK -
00:21:50.11\00:21:52.18
so you were always real nervous.
00:21:52.38\00:21:55.08
You know, there were
individuals talking about taking
00:21:55.28\00:21:57.35
people's lives, and
there were some lives taken.
00:21:57.55\00:22:00.01
OK. You know, where I was at all
the movement was underground.
00:22:00.21\00:22:04.14
OK. There was no movement
above the ground whatsoever.
00:22:04.34\00:22:06.83
It was all underground.
00:22:06.93\00:22:07.96
So by being in that place
and being incarcerated there
00:22:08.16\00:22:11.55
I was real
leery about everybody.
00:22:11.75\00:22:13.82
Uh-huh. One night I'd come
home... I say "come home, "
00:22:14.12\00:22:16.47
I was in work release -
OK - and I had an individual
00:22:16.57\00:22:18.88
told me he was going to take
my life when I went to sleep.
00:22:18.98\00:22:20.88
Hmmm. And I didn't
just challenge him. I just
00:22:21.08\00:22:24.32
handled the situation - OK
- and it caused me to receive
00:22:24.53\00:22:28.22
a charge of attempted murder.
00:22:28.32\00:22:30.99
OK. So attempted murder
charge which was actually later
00:22:31.19\00:22:33.19
reduced to a lesser
charge, correct? It was.
00:22:33.39\00:22:35.28
It was reduced to
assault and battery -
00:22:35.39\00:22:38.58
OK - with the attempt.
And you know I ended up
00:22:38.78\00:22:41.00
only doing two years of
incarceration on that charge.
00:22:41.10\00:22:44.45
OK. And I use the term "only. "
00:22:44.65\00:22:46.40
But you know the fact is
there were 27 years of my life
00:22:46.60\00:22:52.44
that were lost and were gone.
00:22:52.64\00:22:56.71
So the two years
kind of seems like small
00:22:57.01\00:22:58.89
compared to the
27. Right, absolutely.
00:22:59.09\00:23:01.32
But you know, that 2 years is
where the life changing began.
00:23:01.62\00:23:05.77
Because actually when you
got sentenced you did two years.
00:23:06.07\00:23:08.82
When you got to the prison
you actually had an intention...
00:23:09.02\00:23:12.37
You went to a meeting
of Christians and you had
00:23:12.57\00:23:14.67
an intention to do something.
What was that intention
00:23:14.87\00:23:17.26
that turned out
to be a blessing?
00:23:17.56\00:23:18.93
Well you know, and it
was really before I knew God.
00:23:19.14\00:23:21.76
I had an encounter in the
regional diagnostic center
00:23:21.96\00:23:27.25
and that's where they
put you in a 5x8. Yeah.
00:23:27.55\00:23:29.52
You're all alone, and
then they do some tests and see
00:23:29.72\00:23:33.02
where you're at,
where your mind's at,
00:23:33.22\00:23:34.33
where your
physical body is moving at.
00:23:34.43\00:23:36.07
And I had a vision of God,
00:23:36.27\00:23:41.34
and I had no
recollection of that at all.
00:23:41.65\00:23:44.08
But the only thing they would
give you there for the first few
00:23:44.28\00:23:46.45
days was a Bible. OK.
And it was like it was laying
00:23:46.55\00:23:48.80
over there in the
corner and it was all glowing.
00:23:48.90\00:23:50.76
Well I'd pick it up and read
it and it just didn't make sense
00:23:51.06\00:23:53.95
to me whatsoever and I
would just throw it down.
00:23:54.05\00:23:56.20
I did that several
times and then they sent me
00:23:56.40\00:23:58.11
to Indiana State Farm.
00:23:58.31\00:23:59.63
And then I saw this
bulletin or saw this flyer
00:23:59.83\00:24:02.74
on the bulletin
board. OK. It said the bikers
00:24:02.84\00:24:04.88
are going to be at the chapel,
and I just began to laugh.
00:24:04.98\00:24:07.22
I said: "I can have
myself a hey-day there. "
00:24:07.53\00:24:10.16
So you went with the
intention of making fun of them.
00:24:10.47\00:24:12.24
I was like Paul! I went
with the total intentions of
00:24:12.34\00:24:15.02
bringing them down, you
know. I wanted to persecute them
00:24:15.22\00:24:19.06
really bad. OK. But
you know, I got over there
00:24:19.26\00:24:21.79
and I began to
look at these guys
00:24:21.99\00:24:24.48
because the first thing
you think about is gold wings
00:24:24.68\00:24:28.27
and suits and ties when you
talk about bikers in church.
00:24:28.47\00:24:31.05
Well I got over there,
and they were guys like me.
00:24:31.25\00:24:33.24
They had black
boots on, blue jeans
00:24:33.44\00:24:34.87
and rags hanging
out of the back pockets
00:24:35.07\00:24:37.12
and cut-off sleeves.
And you know, I'm thinking
00:24:37.32\00:24:40.19
"You know, these guys could
almost be my brothers. " Yeah.
00:24:40.39\00:24:42.83
And I began thinking: "What
do they have in common with
00:24:43.13\00:24:45.75
the church? " OK. And
then I began finding out
00:24:45.86\00:24:48.28
they were the
preachers! They were? Wow!
00:24:48.38\00:24:50.22
So I began to sit
down and listen. OK.
00:24:50.32\00:24:53.63
But every time they'd
have an altar call I'd cut out.
00:24:53.93\00:24:56.96
OK. I mean, I would just split.
00:24:57.26\00:24:58.67
I was done. I
said: "This is over...
00:24:58.98\00:25:00.40
I know what's up now. I
done sat through one of these
00:25:00.50\00:25:02.60
I ain't sittin'
through another one. "
00:25:02.70\00:25:03.76
OK. Well they had six
services that weekend.
00:25:03.96\00:25:06.22
That was
November the 6th of 1988.
00:25:06.43\00:25:09.06
OK. And I remember it
because the last service was
00:25:09.16\00:25:12.98
November the 7th at 2 PM. OK.
00:25:13.18\00:25:16.94
They had an
altar call. All right.
00:25:17.34\00:25:19.40
And as I began
to cut out as normal
00:25:19.71\00:25:22.09
when I got to the
double swinging doors
00:25:22.29\00:25:24.56
they had these brutes standing
in front of the doorway.
00:25:24.77\00:25:27.16
Wouldn't let you
out? Great big guys. Nope,
00:25:27.36\00:25:29.08
they wouldn't let me out. OK.
00:25:29.18\00:25:30.43
They said: "We have people
here wants to talk to you. "
00:25:30.53\00:25:32.20
OK. And I hear the
pitter-patter of a woman's feet
00:25:32.40\00:25:35.06
coming up the aisle.
And it was a long aisle,
00:25:35.26\00:25:37.25
so they seemed to
last for a long time.
00:25:37.46\00:25:39.00
The whole time I kind of
like in the mode of wanting
00:25:39.20\00:25:41.41
to struggle to get out
and these guys are holding me.
00:25:41.51\00:25:43.64
"Calm down a minute. " OK.
00:25:43.84\00:25:45.26
And they came up and this
woman began telling me how much
00:25:45.46\00:25:47.58
she loved me. OK. She
began sharing Jesus with me.
00:25:47.68\00:25:50.38
So in that the Lord
began working on your heart.
00:25:50.58\00:25:52.67
You went with a different
intention than being changed
00:25:52.87\00:25:55.52
and in that God was
working on your heart
00:25:55.72\00:25:58.07
and actually changing
your life at the same time.
00:25:58.17\00:26:00.08
Now when you were
younger did you ever think
00:26:00.28\00:26:02.31
that you would actually come
around and change your life?
00:26:02.52\00:26:04.99
Or did you think that what you
were doing was just going to be
00:26:05.19\00:26:06.77
a way of life forever?
00:26:06.87\00:26:08.11
No, I thought it was going
to be a way of life forever.
00:26:08.31\00:26:09.98
I thought that I was
going to be selling drugs
00:26:10.08\00:26:11.84
and selling women and all that
kind of stuff my whole life.
00:26:12.04\00:26:14.58
I thought that was my goal.
00:26:14.78\00:26:17.47
OK. So you thought that
was your goal. So you really
00:26:17.77\00:26:19.30
didn't have any
intentions... What year was it
00:26:19.50\00:26:21.66
that you actually
changed your life?
00:26:21.87\00:26:23.39
In 1988. 1988. November the 7th
00:26:23.59\00:26:26.68
at 2 o'clock in
the afternoon. OK.
00:26:26.88\00:26:28.63
So you've been involved
in ministry work for quite
00:26:28.83\00:26:31.16
some time now, correct?
00:26:31.27\00:26:32.45
You know, it was like
the Holy Spirit entered me
00:26:32.65\00:26:35.51
that moment and I began
ministering the Word of God.
00:26:35.71\00:26:37.87
OK. Because... you
know, the Word of God
00:26:38.07\00:26:39.84
says "Go and tell
somebody. " Oh yeah, oh yeah.
00:26:40.04\00:26:41.92
So that's what I
did... I took the Word of God.
00:26:42.12\00:26:44.22
By not knowing it, the people
that led me to the Lord said
00:26:44.42\00:26:48.30
"Hey, now you've got
to go tell somebody. "
00:26:48.40\00:26:49.80
Yeah, oh yeah. You know,
people got tired of hearing it.
00:26:50.00\00:26:51.95
Oh yeah. I mean they
really got tired of hearing it.
00:26:52.15\00:26:54.27
And they got to a
point... I lasted 8 more months
00:26:54.57\00:26:57.57
after gettin' saved in prison
00:26:57.77\00:26:59.23
and in that 8 months I was
probably the only individual
00:26:59.43\00:27:05.35
in that dorm that got a
standing ovation when he left.
00:27:05.55\00:27:08.56
Let me ask you a
question: how would you compare
00:27:08.76\00:27:10.50
your Christian life now
compared to the lifestyle
00:27:10.70\00:27:15.00
that you were living?
00:27:15.10\00:27:16.14
Oh, there's no
comparison whatsoever
00:27:16.24\00:27:17.64
because the Word of
God has filled my heart.
00:27:17.68\00:27:20.42
OK. There's no more crime.
00:27:20.72\00:27:22.50
There's no more hurting people,
00:27:22.80\00:27:24.51
and my life is what
it needs to be today.
00:27:24.81\00:27:27.63
What I want you to do right
now is look into the camera
00:27:27.94\00:27:29.96
and talk to the
viewers. Talk to the many bikers
00:27:30.16\00:27:32.41
that are struggling out there,
that are wanting something
00:27:32.61\00:27:36.31
better than what they
have. Can you give them a word?
00:27:36.51\00:27:39.04
Share a word with them
that will encourage them
00:27:39.24\00:27:41.78
to choose Jesus.
Well you know, the word
00:27:41.98\00:27:44.74
today is in faith, and it
says "take God at His word"
00:27:44.84\00:27:47.52
when the circumstances seem
to deny the truth that He has
00:27:47.72\00:27:50.44
promised. And what God has
promised each and every one
00:27:50.64\00:27:52.53
of us is life and life
abundantly. And that's what
00:27:52.63\00:27:54.87
we have to have right
now is we need to know that
00:27:55.07\00:27:57.33
beyond what we've
been taught in life
00:27:57.53\00:27:59.75
Jesus went to the
cross for all of us.
00:27:59.95\00:28:02.38
I want you to
provide your website.
00:28:02.58\00:28:03.70
Give us your website so that
people can get in contact with
00:28:03.80\00:28:06.03
your ministry. It's
unchainedministries. org
00:28:06.14\00:28:08.93
unchainedministries. org
00:28:09.23\00:28:10.59
I encourage you all to get
in contact with this ministry
00:28:10.89\00:28:13.93
so that you can
learn more about it.
00:28:14.14\00:28:15.69