Participants: C. A. Murray (Host), Felix Cortez
Series Code: TLB
Program Code: TLB013501
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00:10 We are back.
00:11 And if you missed the first hour, 00:14 this is our Thursday night sitting, 3ABN today live. 00:17 We have two hours to be together. 00:19 My guest is Felix Cortez, 00:20 he is a professor of New Testament Theology 00:25 at the University of Montemorelos 00:28 in Montemorelos, Mexico and that is a full-- 00:32 mouthful of words. 00:34 But it's good that you--we've been discussing death and hell. 00:40 Basically death and what happens after death. 00:42 Various theologies and ideologies 00:44 that are in our culture today, popular culture today 00:48 and have been around, some for many, 00:50 many thousands of years, as to what happens at death. 00:53 And we've taken to look at how our theology of death 00:58 gives us an idea of the kind of God we serve. 01:01 And how the misinformation about what happens 01:04 after death has really colored and jaundiced, dare I say, 01:09 many people's idea of who God is and what God is like. 01:13 So we've been trying to pull the cover off of that 01:14 and doing a very, very fine job. 01:17 In this second hour, what we want to do is 01:18 take a look at some of those texts. 01:20 And so we're gonna give you now, some ammunition. 01:23 We're gonna arm you just a little bit by looking at 01:25 some of the texts which are often tossed 01:27 in the face of Adventists and others who believe, 01:29 as we do or as the Bible teaches about what happens after death. 01:33 What is hell? Where is hell? 01:35 Why is hell? Is hell burning now? 01:38 How long will it burn? 01:39 And what happens to the people 01:41 who are sentenced "to hell?" 01:44 So we're gonna give you some texts now, 01:45 so you want to fire up those computers, 01:46 get your pen and pencil out, paper, 01:48 because we've got some text and we want to go through, 01:50 and this will give you some ammunition 01:52 that will help stabilize your faith. 01:54 Also, maybe, have you take a different look 01:56 at who God is and how God is dealing with these issues. 02:00 What is judgment and what are the results of that judgment? 02:03 So we're gonna give you-- you're back in school now. 02:05 So you're taking some notes, we won't give you any homework 02:08 but you are taking some notes. 02:09 And this is information that you need to have, 02:11 so we want you to pay real good attention, 02:13 because this is very important. 02:15 Couple of things, I think, before we go to our song 02:16 I want to go back to our free offer 02:18 for the evening, dare I forget or ere I forget. 02:22 The free offer is "Does God Love Sinners Forever?" 02:25 written by Danny Shelton. 02:26 Is there a hell? How long will it burn? 02:29 Very simple, very direct, very well done book on hell 02:33 and what happens after death. 02:36 Something we'd like to send to you, 02:37 we'd be more than happy to put it in your hands. 02:38 If you will but call us, (618) 627-4651, 02:43 (618) 627-4651. 02:45 Or email us, free offer, freeoffer@3abn.org, 02:50 we will get this right out to you. 02:51 It would be our pleasure to do so. 02:54 Before we go back to, I guess, and have him speak more 02:59 on this very, very important topic, 03:01 we want to hear little bit more from Tim Parton, 03:03 our friend, great guy as we said in the first half. 03:06 Again, he's going to be playing a medley, 03:08 it's called the "In the Garden Medley." 03:11 This is Tim Parton. 08:49 Tim Parton, beautifully done. 08:51 Just really wonderful song, songs and very, 08:55 very well played, really, really neat guy. 08:57 My guest is Felix and I want to say Felix, 09:00 but I know better, my wife being Latino, 09:03 I know--and she would correct me when she watches us 09:05 and she'd go, see that's Felix, 09:06 you know, that "e" is an "a." Yes. 09:08 So that's Felix Cortez. Yes. 09:10 And just a really neat guy, somebody that, 09:12 in the short tim we've been here, I really like. 09:15 This is his first time on the 3ABN camp 09:17 with us asking him how he-- 09:20 what he thought about what he's seeing. 09:22 He got in late last night, so he hasn't seen 09:23 the real lay of the land yet. Yes. 09:25 Came over here just as-- the studio's pretty much it, 09:27 but it's a very big campus. 09:29 And you were telling me that you do have a broadcasting 09:32 or production department at Montemorelos. 09:35 And I know, we've shot some stuff down there. 09:37 Yes, there is a school of communication. 09:40 And they record programs 09:42 for different television networks 09:47 in Inter-American and South America. 09:50 Yes, yes. 09:51 There are like, I think, 3, 4, 5 programs, 09:53 different series that they-- 09:55 I see. Yeah. 09:56 I think we've gotten a few of those things up here, 09:58 I remember seeing some things from the school. 10:01 I have not yet been on the campus, 10:03 I think, my wife has. 10:04 And I wanted to find an excuse to come down there. 10:06 Yeah, you should be there. 10:07 We're going to find an excuse so you can come. 10:10 Indeed. Yeah. 10:11 Praise the Lord. Yeah. 10:13 Well, have Bible, will travel, so I do preach. 10:15 Yeah. We'd be glad to do so. 10:17 We've been talking about and dealing with, in particular, 10:21 the subjects of death and hell. 10:23 And when we left, we were moving into the New Testament, 10:27 but you said something that kind of stuck 10:29 in my mind that when New Testament readers 10:31 and writers read some of these passages 10:34 that are problematic for us, it was not problematic for them, 10:38 because they had Old Testament references 10:40 and things that had gone on before. 10:42 Sort of mind that a little bit for me, Felix. 10:43 Yes. 10:45 The Old Testament context, for the New Testament 10:51 is just foundational, foundational. 10:55 I wanted to say something else about the Old Testament 10:59 that is going to help understand 11:00 what is happening in the New Testament. 11:03 To give you one example, for example, 11:05 the word for spirit in the Old Testament, 11:09 Ruach--Ruach. In Hebrew. 11:11 That word has many different meanings. 11:15 It could mean, for example, breeze, wind, 11:20 breath, sense, mind, heart. 11:25 So it could mean many different things. 11:27 Yes, yes. 11:29 So basically these were the inward part of the individual. 11:32 But when the spirit comes back into the kith. 11:36 Elijah, for example, what comes back is not spirit, 11:40 it's the breath. It's breath, yeah. 11:41 Respiration. Yes. 11:42 He began to breathe again, that's what happened. 11:45 And what was departing from Rachel 11:48 when she was dying was her breath. 11:50 Yes, yeah. That's important. 11:52 But then Jesus says, "Father into hands-- 11:55 into thy hands I command my spirit." 11:58 Yes. What is he doing there? 12:02 He's commanding everything that is interior life, 12:07 his mind, his heart, his hopes, his-- 12:10 so he's not commanding an entity he has, 12:17 but he's giving to God the-- all his hopes, 12:24 his aspirations that are described as his spirit. 12:31 Because spirit is the inner life. 12:33 Yes, yes. 12:34 So "into thy hands I command my spirit, 12:36 " should not be understood in the Greco-Roman context, 12:39 should be understood in the Old Testament context. 12:41 Context. Yes, this-- 12:43 all this interior life, all this mind and heart that he hands 12:47 into the Father's-- so he's like, 12:48 "don't forget my hopes." Yes, yes. 12:50 Put them into your hands and bring me back 12:53 to life as you promised. Yes, yes. 12:55 Don't forget me. That's what is going on. 12:57 You touched on a word which may be-- 13:00 a little phrase that may be misconstrued, 13:02 you said it is the interior life. 13:04 As we look at the Hebrew word Ruach, 13:07 is there any instance in your studies 13:09 that attaches any sort of conscious 13:12 existence to Ruach? No. 13:16 Ruach cannot exist apart from the body. 13:20 You see Ruach and bodies, it is--they form one unity. 13:26 When you separate them, you have nothing, you see? 13:31 They are the interior life 13:33 that needs the exterior which is-- 13:35 I see. Which is the body. 13:37 You cannot have the interior independent, 13:40 it has to be together. 13:42 So there cannot be-- by the way, 13:44 animals have this breath of life and they are referred 13:50 to sometimes as having spirit because of this breath of life. 13:53 Also our souls as well, because of the breath of life. 13:58 So not only humans have this characterization. 14:04 So yes, they are one thing 14:08 and spirit and body they form a unity. 14:13 If you separate them, both of them stop existing. 14:16 Stop existing. Yeah. 14:17 So the New Testament writers and readers 14:20 were armed with that context-- Yes. 14:21 And was sort of in their minds. Yes. 14:23 And I like this idea that we moved from a Hebrew 14:29 or an ancient context to a more Greco-Roman context-- 14:31 And we today are, sort of, Yes. 14:33 I'll use the word slaves to that Greco-Roman thought. 14:36 Yeah, that Greek thought and so we filter 14:40 all of these passages through that thought 14:43 and, of course, that lens is a bad lens to look through. 14:46 You look through a bad pair of glasses-- 14:48 Because you're getting an obscured 14:49 sort of look at what's going on. 14:50 Yes. All right. 14:52 So now we wanna look at some of these passages, 14:55 dear professor, and sort of arm ourselves for the battle. 15:00 What do we look at first? 15:02 Let's go to Philippians 1:24, 15:05 which is an interesting passage. 15:07 It says there, Philippians 1:24-- 15:14 You know it's interesting, and let us say 15:16 both of us have iPads here-- Yes. 15:19 And we have our Bibles on our iPads. 15:21 But when you want to study, you go to the word, 15:23 you know, you got-- Yeah. 15:24 That's something-- It feels different. 15:26 It feels different, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 15:28 So Philippians 1:24 says there-- 15:37 in fact verse 23-- Yes. 15:39 "For I'm hard-pressed between the two, 15:42 having a desire to depart and be with Christ 15:45 which is better--far better, nevertheless to remain 15:49 in the flesh is more needful for you." 15:52 What is this meaning of depart and being with Christ? 15:56 He's talking about death. Is he okay? 16:00 He was prisoner and he says, "Well, 16:03 it wouldn't be bad for me to die and be with Christ." 16:05 And you'll see there. Yeah. Yes. 16:07 You have the soul that goes to heaven and is with God. 16:11 But you see for Paul, when you read Paul, 16:16 you're going to find that we are in Christ now. 16:19 When we accept Jesus, we are in Christ 16:22 and we don't need to die to be in Christ. 16:24 Yes. 16:26 And then he's going to-- just a few verses later on, 16:30 Philippians 4:13 says that, when we die 16:34 and Jesus comes back and resurrects us, 16:38 Then we're going to be forever with the Lord. 16:40 Yes. So he was looking 16:42 for resurrection to be with the Lord. 16:44 So what did he means-- what does he means 16:46 when he says that, "to die and be with Christ?" 16:50 You know, it has to do with the perspective 16:52 with which you read this passage. 16:56 If you die, since death is unconscious-- 17:01 There's no sense of time for you--for a person who die, 17:06 death is a twinkle of an eye. Yes. 17:10 He dies--just open-- close his eyes, 17:13 opens again and he's is in the resurrection. 17:17 For the person who is alive and sees another persons 17:20 to die is different. Oh, yes. 17:23 There--there's a big span of time. 17:26 So in that sense, to die and be with the Lord, 17:29 immediately, it has to do with this idea that death is 17:32 unconscious, you die, you don't have any conscience 17:38 of the passing of time, then you resurrect. 17:40 Just open your eyes again and you are with the Lord. 17:43 And that's what he says in Philippians 13 through 17. 17:46 That when Jesus comes and resurrects us-- 17:48 Yes. Then we will be with the Lord. 17:51 So that's what he's-- that's what he's saying. 17:56 I like that. 17:57 So the idea-- and you touched on this, 17:59 it's a good foundational point, that Christ came to say 18:05 among other things that you could have 18:06 a fully functioning complete relation 18:08 with me here and now. Yes. 18:10 You don't need to die for that to happen. 18:13 I am come that you have my life 18:14 and have abundant life here and now. 18:16 Yes. 18:18 So the idea that we've got to fly off to be with him, 18:20 you know, we can have that relationship here-- 18:22 Yes. While we're still alive. 18:24 And we need to be resurrected-- 18:25 Yes, yes. To be with Christ again. 18:26 Yes, yes, yes, yes. 18:28 That's what Philippians 4:13-17 says. 18:31 It's really good. 18:32 So that's the text that we need to sort of put down 18:34 and put a line through because it's very, very important-- 18:38 For our understanding of what happens at death. 18:41 And that particular text, because that text 18:43 in Philippians is tossed around kind of a lot. 18:45 Yes. We see it a lot. 18:47 That we've got--and it's Paul's desire, you know, 18:49 that I want to die and just go away. 18:51 No, Christ can have a full relationship 18:53 with us now. Okay. 18:54 Now another-- and there are some passages, Luke 16. 18:58 Luke 16, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. 19:01 Oh, yes. That is a very important passage 19:04 and we need to go there and we need to read it. 19:10 And we're going to take a little more time 19:12 with this one here. 19:13 Luke 16, is a parable that Jesus tells the Pharisees, 19:18 well, probably the disciples, when the Pharisees are hearing. 19:23 And you know the story, there is a poor man 19:26 who is lying at the door of a rich man 19:31 and the name of the poor man is Lazarus-- 19:32 And he desires to be fed with the crumbs 19:35 that fall from the table of the rich man. 19:37 And then they died and then one goes to the bosom of Abraham 19:44 and the other one goes to the fire of Hades. 19:47 Yes. 19:48 And then the rich man says, "Hey, send Lazarus to help me, 19:52 to tip the tip of his finger in water 19:57 and refresh me a little bit, " and then Abraham says, 20:02 "No, it's a big divide 20:04 between us--" A big gulf, yes, fixed. 20:06 We cannot go. Yes. 20:07 Well, send him to my brother so that they understand 20:11 what is going on and they don't come here. 20:13 So this is a very interesting passage. 20:15 Yes, yes. 20:16 You see, the fire that is burning and this wicked man, 20:22 rich man is suffering there. 20:26 How do we understand that? 20:27 Does that negate what we have been saying 20:30 in the New Testament? It doesn't. 20:33 But we need to understand 20:34 what is that we are finding here. 20:37 We need to understand that this is a parable. 20:40 And parables are illustrations to drive home some point. 20:47 And important, there was a man in the AD 1st century 20:52 called Theon and he gave one of the best definition 20:57 of what a parable is. 20:59 And he said that parable is a fictitious 21:01 saying picturing truth. 21:04 We have a fictitious saying-- 21:06 Yes. Picturing truth. 21:08 Something that is a made-up story 21:11 to say a truth. Yes. 21:13 So Jesus made up this story to drive home some truth. 21:18 What is that truth? Yeah. 21:20 Illustrations have that problem. 21:22 When you make an illustration, 21:23 not everything you say is used 21:25 to drive home a point. Okay. 21:27 Now I want to stop there, because 21:28 I knew you're going there-- Yes. 21:30 Then as you get there I wanna stop. 21:31 It was an important point, that when you have a parable 21:35 you cannot, as we say parse a parable 21:38 because every element in that parable 21:42 is not important to where you're going in the parable. 21:44 The parable is where we're driving to, 21:47 not the car or the seat or the seatbelt, 21:50 it's where we're going. Yes. 21:52 So you don't say well, the seat belt didn't fit-- 21:54 Or the lights weren't on or the tires were flat 21:56 because that's not important. 21:58 The important is where we're going. 21:59 So any illustration will never be totally perfect. 22:04 Never. Because they're based on stuff that you know. 22:06 So Christ used elements that they were familiar with. 22:10 Put them together and made a stew 22:12 and then gave it to them. Yes. 22:13 So don't look so much at the peas and the pot 22:15 and the-- look at the stew. 22:16 Does that make sense? 22:18 Is that correct? Yes, yes, yes, yes. 22:19 So you don't then necessarily draw a doctrinal premise 22:23 from a parable. No. 22:25 Because it's just using elements that were-- 22:27 I could tell a story about the president 22:30 of the United States or the recent election 22:32 or anything because we know those things. 22:36 Yeah. But you don't stick with that. 22:38 You look at the goal of the parable. 22:41 And I think that's very important, 22:42 particularly in this one. Yes. 22:43 Because you can get really off-track 22:46 looking at the different elements 22:47 in this particular parable. Yes. 22:49 For example you make an illustration, 22:52 a plane is like a flying bird-- Yeah. 22:55 But plane and birds are different-- 22:57 Yes. Yes. In many respects-- 22:59 And they are similar in some respects. 23:01 We need to pay attention to their respects 23:03 in which they are similar. Absolutely. Yeah. 23:04 Both fly. Yes. 23:06 Both have wings. Right. 23:07 But one is made of steel and another is made of flesh-- 23:09 So we need to be careful with this-- 23:12 Yeah. The same happens in the parable. 23:14 Yeah. Now Jesus identifies 23:17 what are the important points of the parable. 23:19 Yes. And that is important point. 23:21 The important point is found at the end of the parable. 23:27 In verse 30 and 31, he says, "and he saith, 23:33 'No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them 23:37 from the death, they will repent. 23:40 But he said to him, if they do not hear Moses 23:44 and the prophets, neither will they be 23:47 persuaded though one rises or one rise from the dead.'" 23:50 From the dead. 23:51 So the point that Jesus want to say, 23:53 "hey, you need to pay attention to the prophets, 23:55 to Moses and the prophets. 23:57 You need to pay attention to the Bible--" 23:58 Yes. That's what he says. 24:00 Now why is he saying that? 24:01 Because there is a very interesting context to this, 24:03 if you read Luke 13, 14, 15 and 16-- 24:08 Jesus in the middle of a debate, controversy with the Pharisees. 24:14 The Pharisees accused Jesus that he is a sinner 24:17 because he breaks the Sabbath. Yes. 24:19 And because he eats with sinners. 24:23 And Jesus says, "No, I'm not a sinner. 24:26 You are the sinners, because of your love of money, 24:31 and because you make--you evade truth." 24:37 In the sight of the people you look like you're true-- 24:41 Yes. But you evade truth. 24:43 So what Jesus is trying to say here, you know, 24:46 you need to obey what the law says. 24:51 And the context of parable of Luke 16 24:54 is about loving money and not loving the neighbor. 24:58 And he's saying, you know, in the Old Testament 25:01 there are lot of passages that we're to take care 25:03 of our neighbors. Yes, yes. 25:04 We're to take care of people with our wealth, 25:09 but you love wealth instead of loving your neighbor. 25:13 So you bend--you bend your way around the laws, 25:18 people think that you're obeying the law, 25:20 but you're not. You're not. 25:22 So then he says this story. 25:24 Because in Luke 14, he was in a banquet 25:28 with Pharisees and the Pharisees said to him in Luke 14, 25:33 you know, "Blessed the one who eats with God 25:36 in the kingdom of God." 25:38 So they are expecting to have this-- 25:40 Yes. Banquet. 25:42 Now Pharisees believed that in heaven 25:45 there will be some people in the bosom of Abraham 25:47 in a banquet with Abraham, and others will be sent to hell. 25:52 That's what they believed. Yes. 25:55 Sadducees didn't believe that. Right. 25:57 And many people didn't believe that, 25:58 but Pharisees did. Pharisees did. 25:59 Yes, yes, yes. 26:01 So Jesus said, "I'm going to tell you 26:02 a story about a rich man." 26:04 This rich man probably was a Pharisee. 26:07 This rich man died, he probably, 26:09 he did everything well and he died and he thought 26:12 that he was going to be in the bosom of Abraham. 26:16 Why he's not in the bosom of Abraham? 26:19 Well, because he didn't keep the law. 26:21 Yeah. Why didn't he keep the law? 26:23 Because he didn't take care of the poor man 26:25 who was at the door. 26:27 So he end up in the wrong side of hell. 26:30 Yes, yes. 26:32 And then he says to Abraham, send someone to tell my friends. 26:37 And Abraham says, "They have Moses, 26:40 they have the prophets. 26:42 They need to hear Moses and the prophets 26:44 and do what the prophets say." Yeah. 26:46 So the parable is about obeying the word of God. 26:49 Now if you go to the Old Testament, 26:51 the Old Testament doesn't have anything 26:52 to say about hell. 26:53 So if you try to teach hell from this parable, 26:57 you're shooting in your feet. Yes. 26:59 Because the main topic and the main teaching 27:04 of the parable was that you need to hear 27:06 what the Old Testament says. Yeah. 27:07 But the Old Testament doesn't say anything 27:09 about hell. Yeah. 27:10 So it is an illustration to drive home the point. 27:13 You need to take care of your brothers, 27:15 you need to obey what the word of God says, 27:17 you need to be careful with mammon, the richness, 27:21 riches, and taking care of your brother. 27:23 Otherwise you're going to end up in the wrong side after death. 27:28 Yeah, let's talk for just a moment 27:30 about the importance of understanding the context 27:34 before you try to do any kind of exegesis 27:36 or any kind of interpretation or explanation or application 27:39 to modern day life, because 27:41 this is highly contextual. Of course. 27:44 And if you try to take it out of the context, 27:45 you really go off into deep space 27:49 because you have nothing to ground your understanding 27:52 of what Christ is trying to say. Yes. 27:54 Do you know, if you take something out of context, 27:56 you're destroying the meaning of that thing. 27:59 Yes. That happens a lot in politics. 28:04 You just take a sound bit and you make it say 28:08 a completely different thing-- 28:09 Very true. From the original. 28:11 And we do politics sometimes with Jesus. 28:13 Oh, yes. We take His words 28:15 out of context. Yes. 28:17 And we make Him say what he doesn't say. 28:19 Yes, yes, yes. 28:20 So that is a very important point 28:22 that you have raised. Yes. 28:23 The context will help you find the meaning of what, 28:26 of the sayings of Jesus. 28:31 Very power--I'm glad you started with that one 28:33 because that one is tossed around quite a lot-- 28:36 And it is highly subject to its context 28:38 and you cannot really understand it 28:39 without understanding the background 28:41 and the context in which this text falls. 28:43 Yes. Another one is Revelation 6:9. 28:46 Okay. Revelation 6:9, it's an interesting passage. 28:51 This passage that we have here is about... 28:58 "When he opened the fifth seal, 29:01 I saw under the altar the souls of those 29:04 who had been slain for the word of God 29:07 and for the testimony which they held. 29:11 And they cried with a loud voice saying, 29:14 'how long, O Lord, Holy and true until You judge 29:18 and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' 29:23 " So you have these souls, these people-- 29:27 Yes. Under the altar crying to God, 29:32 when are you going to make justice? 29:34 When are You going to make justice? 29:36 So this is an interesting passage because people say, 29:39 you know, there are people in heaven 29:42 under the altar in heaven and saying-- 29:43 Yes, yes. And saying this. 29:45 Now there's something very interesting here. 29:49 There were two altars in the Tabernacle. 29:54 There was a prayer altar of incense 29:58 and there was an altar of sacrifice. 29:59 Of sacrifice, yes. 30:01 Many people think that this is referring to the altar 30:04 of incense and since there is a heavenly sanctuary--Right. 30:08 You know, the ark of God is the throne of God 30:11 and then you have these candle lights 30:16 and are described in Revelation 1, 30:20 for example, Jesus walking around them. 30:23 So all this is Tabernacle in heaven, 30:26 that's what they are thinking. 30:28 But there is a second altar, the altar of sacrifice. 30:32 Sacrifice, yes, yes. 30:33 And now when you sacrifice an animal, 30:36 the blood of the animal, you will pour it down, 30:39 according to Leviticus, a lot of passages-- Yes. 30:42 You will pour down the blood under the altar 30:45 in the sides of the altar. 30:47 So when the animal was killed, the blood was poured 30:51 on the side in the base of the altar. 30:55 So this altar probably is referring to the altar 30:59 of sacrifice, not to the altar of the incense, 31:02 because you referred to the blood of people--Yes. 31:05 That has been shed and is being poured-- 31:08 On the altar and that is the altar of sacrifice. 31:11 I understand, yes. 31:12 Now where is the altar of sacrifice? 31:14 In heavens or on earth? According to Jesus' death 31:18 on the cross in Hebrews is parallel to the death 31:23 of the sacrifice, the animal sacrifice. 31:26 And so the cross was in earth, so this altar should be 31:31 symbolically--Yes. Earth. 31:34 They are not in heaven, they are on earth. Right. 31:37 You see, C. A., in the time of the New Testament, 31:40 there were--for example we have Philo and Josephus, 31:43 both of them were living in that time. Yes. 31:45 They compared the universe to a sanctuary, 31:48 but for both of them, the altar of the sacrifice was on earth. 31:53 It's interesting. Yes. 31:54 That is the atrium, was on earth. 31:57 So this idea, probably, of the altar of sacrifice 31:59 and the blood of the souls, 32:02 of these persons, it is on earth. 32:04 Now we need to understand that this, of course, 32:09 this passage is highly symbolic. 32:11 You have choruses and you have a lot of imagery, 32:14 so it's symbolic of something that is happening. Yes. 32:17 It is symbolic of what? What is it pointing towards? 32:22 It is symbolic of what happened with Abel. 32:25 Do you remember Abel? Mm-hmm. 32:27 He was killed. Yes. 32:28 And his blood was shed and God said to Cain, 32:32 "The blood of your brother is crying out from the ground 32:35 of the earth to me, claiming for justice." 32:39 The same is happening with these righteous people. 32:42 And you know, this is a very hopeful 32:44 and very--passage full of hope because it is saying, you know, 32:48 God does not forget the blood of his people. Amen. 32:52 And this blood, they might be dead, 32:55 they may have been sacrificed, but God has not forgotten. Yes. 33:00 That blood has been shed and it's crying out, 33:03 it is like the blood of Abel, 33:05 crying out for justice-- Crying out, yes. 33:07 And God is going to remember. 33:08 And, of course, he remembers it in Revelation 15, 33:12 but we don't have time to go there, yes. 33:17 We praise the Lord, we praise the Lord for that. 33:19 And again, the people who were recipients of this, 33:24 the immediate recipients, understood that because 33:26 they knew the context in which it was written. 33:27 Yes, of course. Yes, yes, yes. 33:29 Excellent, excellent. 33:30 Anything else in here before we head to Revelation 14? 33:34 And we want to sort of tidy up. 33:35 Well, I think we now-- we go to Revelation 14. Okay. 33:41 Revelation 14 is really, wow. 33:45 It says 14:9 and following. 33:48 It says,"Then a third angel followed them saying 33:52 with a loud voice, 'if anyone worships the beast 33:57 and his image and receives his mark 34:00 on his forehead or on his hand, 34:02 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God 34:07 which is poured out full strength 34:09 into the cup of his indignation. 34:11 He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence 34:15 of the holy angels and in the presence of the lamb. 34:18 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever. 34:23 And they have no rest day or night, 34:26 who worship the beast and his image, 34:28 and whomever receives the mark of his name.'" 34:32 Well, this is-- Yes, yes. 34:33 they are burned with fire forever and ever, 34:38 the smoke ascends forever and ever-- Yes, yes. 34:40 Without rest, without rest. Yes. 34:44 So this day and night, it is an imagery of something 34:50 that does not stop. Yes. 34:52 And Jesus says the same in gospel when he talks 34:56 about a fire that cannot be quenched. 34:59 Be quenched. Yes, yes. 35:00 So what is going on here? As I told you 35:02 in the hour before-- Yes. 35:06 When they heard this, they immediately 35:08 thought about Isaiah 34. 35:11 Because this is the destruction of Edom. 35:14 Let's go to Isaiah 34, 35:16 which is a very interesting passage there. 35:25 And you see-- 35:34 you see Isaiah 34:6, it says, "The sword of the Lord 35:40 is filled with blood, it is made overflowing with fatness, 35:44 with the blood of lambs and goats" et cetera, et cetera. 35:47 He's talking about the great slaughter in the land of Edom. 35:50 He's talking about the judgment God is going to bring upon Edom. 35:55 Then we go to the verse 8, 35:59 "For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, 36:02 the year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 36:06 Its streams shall be turned into pitch 36:09 and its dust into brimstone. 36:12 Its land shall become burning pitch." 36:15 You see, you have the burning pitch. Yes. 36:18 "It shall not be quenched night or day." 36:21 It's the same imagery and say, "its smoke shall ascend forever, 36:26 from generation to generation it shall lie waste." 36:29 So you have burning pitch, no rest day or night-- Yeah. 36:33 Ascending forever and ever. Yes, yes. 36:35 So Isaiah 14 is quoting Edom, 36:38 the judgment against Edom, in Isaiah 34. 36:42 Now the question I'm going to ask, is Edom burning today? 36:45 Edom is not burning today. No. 36:47 But it is a lot of heat. There is a big sun there. 36:50 I'd been there and it's very warm. 36:52 But it's not burning. Yes. 36:54 But you see, when you read this prophecy, 36:57 you find immediately that this is an imagery 37:03 to describe a total destruction. 37:06 You see, let's go to verse 10. 37:10 You see, "Its smoke shall ascend forever. 37:13 From generation to generation it shall lie waste. 37:17 No one shall pass through it forever and ever 37:20 but the pelican and the porcupine shall posses it. 37:24 Also the owl and raven shall dwell in it. 37:27 And He shall stretch it over it 37:30 the line of confusion..." etcetera. 37:32 "They shall call its nobles to the Kingdom but no one 37:35 shall be there and all its princes shall be nothing." 37:38 Verse 13, "And the thorn shall come up in its palaces, 37:42 nettles and brambles in its fortresses. 37:45 It shall be a habitation of jackals, 37:48 a courtyard for ostriches, the wild beasts of the earth, 37:51 desert shall be met with the jackals 37:54 and the wild goat shall bleat to its companion," 37:57 et cetera, you see. Yes. 37:59 You have here very interesting imagery. 38:01 And imagery of the rivers will be of pitch, 38:04 burning forever. Yes. 38:06 And then smoke ascending forever without rest, day and night. 38:11 But exactly at the same moment he says, 38:13 the jackals are going to be there. Yes. 38:15 The ostriches are going to be there. 38:19 All these thorns shall come up, 38:21 the brambles and the nettles shall come up. 38:24 How do you understand brambles and nettles and animals 38:27 and wild animals in the land when it's burning 38:30 at the same time? Yeah. 38:32 Cannot be, it is imagery. 38:34 And this imagery is just saying Edom with never be built again. 38:40 Yes. Yes. That's very powerful. 38:42 That he's using a number of images to make 38:47 a particular point. Yes. 38:48 So you don't lock down on the images per se, 38:51 but the point that they are driving to. 38:52 Yes. Yeah, yeah. 38:54 And the images itself point out that they cannot be understood 38:58 literally. Right. Right. 38:59 Because if you understand them literally, 39:01 then you are contradictory. Yeah. 39:03 And they conflict in themselves-- Yes. 39:05 You got animals there and something is burning 39:06 and you got things growing and some things burning 39:08 and you know, if you have a burning entity, 39:12 there's nothing around it that's safe from that. 39:14 So if you look too closely, the imagery tends to fall apart. 39:18 But you look at it as a whole and look at where it's going. 39:20 The same-- That's powerful. 39:22 The same happens with Jesus' description of Gehenna, hell. 39:25 Fire, that is not quenched and the worm that does not die. 39:31 How do you have a worm and fire at the same time? 39:34 You have one or the other but not both-- 39:37 Right. Because both are images-- 39:38 Yes, yes. Of complete destruction. 39:41 Destruction, yes. Complete destruction. 39:42 Yes. Yes. Yes, yes, that's important. 39:44 Now that helps us go into another point 39:49 which is important, the point of the fire that burns forever. 39:54 Jesus mentions this fire that burn forever in several places. 39:59 For example, let's go to Matthew 25. 40:06 Matthew 25, when he talks about 40:10 the goats to the left and lambs to the right 40:18 and he says something there. 40:29 It's to the left, verse 41. 40:32 Matthew 25: 41. Here we go. 40:35 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 40:39 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire 40:47 prepared for the devil and his angels.'" 40:52 This everlasting fire, what is this everlasting fire? 40:56 Do you know? This everlasting fire 40:57 comes from the very interesting word "ionious." 41:00 Uh-huh. Which is everlasting. 41:01 Everlasting, yes, yes, yes. 41:03 But ionious can refer to two different things. 41:07 It can refer to things regarding to the amount of time, 41:13 duration--duration, amount of time or to quality. 41:18 Because ion was a name of the age, 41:22 the coming age was according-- in the time of Jesus, 41:27 the coming age was the age of the blessing 41:31 of the righteous. Yes. 41:32 The present age is this present evil age. 41:35 So ion is this present age, 41:38 the coming age and the following age. 41:40 So things that belong to the following age 41:43 or they have impact 41:48 or result in that coming age are things that are eternal. 41:55 Uh-huh. That is their quality. 41:59 For example, Jesus says 42:01 that to know me is to have eternal life. Yes. 42:05 How do you can have eternal life now? 42:08 Well, you can have it now because the quality of life, 42:12 a life that belongs-- Yes. 42:14 To the coming age. 42:15 But then you're going to find a lot of interesting expressions 42:19 about this eternal fire. 42:27 For example, you have in Mark 3:29 42:30 and Mark 12:32 talking about eternal sin. 42:37 What is this eternal sin? A sin that is done eternally 42:42 or is that sin that is of eternal quality? 42:45 That is its results are eternal. 42:50 Yeah, the consequences are eternal. 42:51 The consequences are eternal. Yeah. 42:53 So you have an eternal sin. 42:54 Then you have Hebrews 6:2, eternal judgment. 42:58 Is that judgment that goes on and on? 43:01 Some of the judgments now look like eternal. 43:04 Yeah. But he's not saying this here. 43:07 Its not eternal judgment-- Yeah. 43:09 It says the judgment that has an eternal consequence. 43:12 Yes, yes. 43:13 Then you have eternal salvation, Hebrews 5:9. 43:16 When you have Hebrews 5:9, eternal salvation, 43:19 it's not that God is saving you eternally. 43:22 It saves you forever. Yes, yes. 43:25 So, it's ionious salvation. 43:28 Ionious sin, ionious judgment, eternal in its consequences. 43:35 Felix has just really given you a tool. 43:37 He's put a really nice little tool in your hand. 43:40 You've given them a nice little wrench. 43:41 Yes. 43:43 When someone talks about eternal judgment 43:47 as taking forever to judge or eternal fire, 43:52 then just look up the uses of eternal in the New Testament. 43:58 And they will say to you that rather than taking 44:03 an eternity for these things to happen, 44:06 the results or consequences of this happening will be eternal 44:11 and you get that understanding 44:12 by looking at the breadth of that word eternal 44:16 and doing a word study on eternal. 44:18 And that's why studying the word of God 44:19 is so very, very important. Yes. 44:21 But rather than grabbing a text-- 44:23 And developing a doctrine from one or two texts, 44:26 grab the word, look at all of the uses 44:29 of that word and then develop your doctrine as a consequence 44:31 of the body of work rather than just one or two texts. 44:36 And if you look at how something is used, 44:38 most of the time, if you have one little 44:40 odd usage over here, don't go with 44:42 that little odd ball over here, go with the main body of work-- 44:46 And then we'll work with that little odd ball 44:48 because that odd ball may not be as odd as you think. 44:50 But don't just jump on a little odd text 44:52 and use that for your proof. 44:54 Go with the body of work as Felix has just done. 44:57 He's given you a good Bible study 44:58 methodology and that will help you. 45:00 Some take a difficult text, bring an understanding 45:04 of that text and from that understanding-- 45:07 They bend all the clear text. 45:09 Yes. Right, right, right. 45:10 We should do the other way. Other way around, yes. 45:12 We will take the clear text-- The clear text, yeah. 45:15 And then from this prospective say, 45:16 well, what does it say about this one? 45:18 About this little odd ball, yes. 45:19 And then it becomes clear. Yes. 45:21 But sometimes we take one text and we bend everything else. 45:25 That's true, yes. 45:26 So you have this eternal punishment 45:29 which is a punishment which has eternal consequence. 45:31 You have eternal judgment, eternal redemption-- 45:34 Hebrews 9:2 so eternal consequences. 45:36 That's the same that happens in Jude 1:7. 45:39 Where Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with-- 45:41 Eternal fire. Eternal fire. 45:43 Because it's a fire that has eternal consequence. 45:45 Consequence. Yes. Yes. Yes. 45:47 So that's what Jesus is saying. 45:49 And this is very interesting because Jesus never 45:53 refers to hell with the normal word 45:57 for hell which was Tartaros. 46:00 He refers to the word for hell as Gehenna 46:03 and that is very significant, very meaningful. 46:07 Because Gehenna, Gehenna was a valley, 46:09 was at the south of Jerusalem and was an important valley. 46:13 In the time of the Old Testament 46:14 that valley was a valley where there were idols there, 46:18 babies were burnt to these idols in some of them. 46:21 Some of these really strange worship, 46:27 bad worship and then that valley became 46:32 an important valley when the Sennacherib's army, 46:34 this Assyrian army came to lay siege of Jerusalem. 46:40 Both Isaiah and 2 Kings says 46:43 that God killed 185,000 46:51 of the Assyrian army. 46:54 What happened with 185,000? Well, they were dead 46:59 and they were in this great valley according to the Bible. 47:03 What do you do with this body, corpses? 47:08 They made a big fire and burnt them. 47:12 And you know how much time was going to burn this fire? 47:16 Like eternity because it was 185,000 people there. 47:21 So it became a very important place. 47:24 And that place became the symbol of the place 47:28 where God is going to burn his enemies. 47:32 But you see this is talking about corpses 47:35 not about people suffering forever. 47:37 Corpses is important because to lay unburied 47:42 was the deepest shame a person could have. 47:44 True. 47:46 You put them in a cross, you're shaming them. 47:49 Daniel says that some are going 47:50 to rise for salvation, for honor. 47:54 Others will rise for eternal shame, not eternal shaming. 47:58 Right. But eternal shame. 48:00 This eternal shame has to be with these corpses. 48:03 Shame is eternal for them. 48:05 So this idea of Gehenna, of a place where the corpses 48:10 that God defeated of the Assyrian army, 48:12 this army that God defeated these corpses 48:14 became the symbol of the place of God's judgment. 48:18 And it's important symbol because it talks about 48:20 the defeat of God's enemies. Yes. Yes. Yes. 48:23 God is not going to punish them forever. 48:27 He's going to destroy them forever. 48:29 Forever, yes. 48:31 And isn't it interesting that Christ in His using of that 48:33 and discussing that doctrinal point 48:35 always used Gehenna, always. 48:38 So he's trying to drive home a point-- 48:40 By dealing with that because they knew 48:42 it wasn't burning eternally. Yes. 48:44 So they understood what we so many times trip over 48:47 that the consequences are eternal 48:49 not to the happening itself. And they are-- 48:51 was refer to this fire that is eternal fire because 48:54 it had eternal consequences. Yes, yeah. 48:56 And also to the worm that does not die, 48:59 because that is a shame, eternal shame 49:02 that they are going to have. 49:04 When the New Testament talks about 49:07 that some people are cast out and so that-- 49:10 what do they do with their teeth? 49:12 What is the word? Gnashing. 49:13 Gnashing. Gnashing, yes. 49:15 We think that they gnash their teeth 49:17 because they are in pain but that is not truth. 49:20 In the Old Testament and the New Testament, 49:23 gnashing the teeth has to do with envy. 49:27 That's why when Stephen was about to be killed, 49:31 they gnashed their teeth against him. 49:34 So gnashing the teeth, it's an image in Job, 49:38 in Proverbs and other places, not of pain but of envy. 49:43 So they are going to be cast out because they are-- 49:48 and they are going to gnash their teeth 49:49 because they are envy of those who are inside. 49:51 Who are inside, yes. 49:53 So it doesn't have to do with pain and suffering perhaps. 50:00 So when you say, weeping and wailing 50:01 and envious of those who were inside, 50:04 gives it a whole new-- I don't want to say spin 50:07 because that's such a political word. 50:08 But it puts a whole new flavor on this gnashing of teeth 50:11 because it's not of pain and fire. No. 50:13 It's because you wish you had what they have. 50:15 Yes. Yes. 50:16 And that's why you're weeping and wailing 50:17 because you don't have, and you realized what you've lost. 50:19 Yes. Now 50:20 I would like to think, I would like to talk also about 50:24 the wrath of God. Yes. 50:25 What is a wrathful God? 50:28 If you go to Romans 1, that is an important passage 50:33 to understand the wrath of God. 50:39 Romans 1:18, and following. 50:42 You'll find there, the following says, 50:44 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven 50:47 against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men 50:51 who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." 50:54 Now how is the wrath of God revealed? 50:57 The wrath of God is revealed-- verse 26, 51:04 "Therefore, God gave them-- for this reason 51:08 God gave them up to vile passions." 51:14 So the wrath of God is God giving 51:17 up people to their own desires. 51:20 Verse 28, "And even as they did not like to retain 51:23 God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind." 51:29 You have this idea of God handing over people 51:33 to their own wishes and desires, 51:37 is the revelation, the expression of God's wrath. 51:44 This is important because this is an act of God. 51:48 Wrath-- Is an act of God. 51:49 But this act is handing a person over to his own desires. 51:54 You know, that is--in fact, 51:56 that is the worst thing that can happen to a person. 51:59 God gives us laws, truths, knowledge so that we may have 52:05 the best kind of life we can have. 52:08 The best thing that can happen to us is that we obey God. 52:12 If we obey God, we're going to be happy, 52:14 we're going to be good, we're going to be successful, 52:16 we're going to be having good families. 52:20 But once you reject God and you continue rejecting God 52:23 and you say finally to God, "you know, 52:25 I don't want to have anything to do with you, leave me alone." 52:30 Then God is going to make an act. Yes. 52:32 And God is going to leave you alone. 52:34 Which would be the worst thing that can ever happen to you. 52:36 Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 52:38 Because when you are driven out of God, 52:43 you know God is love, He's the only source of love. 52:47 When you are out of Him, you are out of love, 52:51 what good life can come out of the absence of love? 52:56 Yes, yes, yes, yes. Nothing good. 52:58 So that is what happens. 52:59 If you go to the Old Testament, 53:01 you'll find the ways which God defeated the enemies. 53:04 You're going to find that most of the time 53:07 they over-reached, they over-reach. 53:10 And then God-- what does God do? 53:13 They turn enemies upon enemies. Yes. 53:16 They kill themselves. Yes, yes, yes, yes. 53:18 That's what happens. 53:20 In Revelation, Babylon is the system that opposes God. 53:26 Yes. True. 53:27 And how is the system and how is Babylon destroyed? 53:32 Its lovers, the people who supported it-- 53:35 Turned against Babylon and destroyed Babylon. 53:38 Yeah, the sword drives out-- 53:40 God punishes Babylon by handing Babylon over to its enemies. 53:47 Enemies, yes. 53:48 So it's not God who destroys, it is the enemies who destroy. 53:52 So in the end God's wrath 53:55 is just being willing 54:02 to let us live our own life, to our own freedom. 54:09 You see, there's a passage I like a lot. 54:13 Romans 9:22. Romans 9:22, 54:19 you see, "what if God wanting to show his wrath, 54:26 and to make his power known." 54:28 How do you show your wrath and your power known? 54:31 You say, by-- with a big punishment. 54:33 You see, what God says here, 54:35 "What if God wanting to show his wrath, 54:38 and making his power known, endured with much longsuffering 54:46 the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." 54:48 He shows his wrath by enduring them, 54:52 giving them time. Yes, yes, yes. 54:55 So that is a way that God shows His wrath, giving you time. 55:01 But if you don't take this time to repent, 55:08 then God is going to say, "well, okay, it's okay." 55:11 Then you're going to be destroyed. 55:13 What happens when God depart from you? 55:14 There's no life. Yeah, yeah. 55:16 So that is what happened. 55:18 Finally, hell is complete absence from God. 55:22 Yes. Yeah. 55:24 Felix, that's a powerful and compelling nuance. 55:26 The understanding that hell, 55:29 the mental suffering is absence of God. 55:32 What could have been? I'm gnashing because 55:35 I could've been in there, I could've been one with God, 55:37 but I rejected Him. Yes. 55:39 I said by my life, I don't want you, 55:41 so now God is giving me what I asked for. 55:44 And the realization that I'll never be with God, 55:46 I'm not gonna be with Him, I'm not gonna be saved. 55:48 That is true hell because you're away from life. 55:50 Yes. Correct. 55:52 And the fire that destroys at the end, the wicked, 55:54 was originally destined to cleanse the earth from sin. 55:59 But those who cling to sin are destroyed 56:03 with the sin they loved. 56:05 Precisely, have to be cleansed. Yes. 56:06 So the cleansing is a complete removal of what is-- 56:09 In preparation for what will be-- 56:11 Not an eternal burning. Yes. 56:12 Powerful, powerful statement and understanding. 56:14 This has been for me an interesting and exciting study. 56:18 I trust it has been for you also. 56:20 If you want to get more information, 56:24 then do read and study the word of God 56:27 and again stick with the word, don't just pull your doctrine 56:30 from one sentence or one little statement, 56:32 but take the breadth of statements 56:34 and then develop your theology or your mindset. 56:38 Because as we said, these two particular doctrines 56:40 have been tossed around quite a little bit 56:43 and misunderstood a great deal. 56:45 But we hope tonight that we've shed some light on them, 56:47 that you've gotten some encouragement, 56:49 some inspiration as well as information 56:52 rather on these two subjects. 56:54 May I encourage you to keep on studying. 56:56 While our time is fast slipped into eternity, 56:58 allow me now, in closing to wish you both grace and peace 57:01 through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 57:02 We'll see you again soon, good night and God bless. |
Revised 2014-12-17