We are back.
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And if you
missed the first hour,
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this is our Thursday
night sitting, 3ABN today live.
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We have two
hours to be together.
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My guest is Felix Cortez,
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he is a professor of
New Testament Theology
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at the
University of Montemorelos
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in Montemorelos,
Mexico and that is a full--
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mouthful of words.
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But it's good that you--we've
been discussing death and hell.
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Basically death and
what happens after death.
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Various
theologies and ideologies
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that are in our culture
today, popular culture today
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and have been
around, some for many,
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many thousands of years,
as to what happens at death.
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And we've taken to look
at how our theology of death
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gives us an idea of
the kind of God we serve.
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And how the misinformation
about what happens
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after death has really colored
and jaundiced, dare I say,
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many people's idea of who
God is and what God is like.
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So we've been trying to
pull the cover off of that
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and doing a very, very fine job.
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In this second hour,
what we want to do is
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take a look at
some of those texts.
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And so we're gonna give
you now, some ammunition.
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We're gonna arm you just
a little bit by looking at
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some of the texts
which are often tossed
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in the face of Adventists
and others who believe,
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as we do or as the Bible teaches
about what happens after death.
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What is hell? Where is hell?
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Why is hell? Is
hell burning now?
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How long will it burn?
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And what happens to the people
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who are sentenced "to hell?"
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So we're gonna
give you some texts now,
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so you want to
fire up those computers,
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get your pen and
pencil out, paper,
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because we've got some
text and we want to go through,
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and this will give
you some ammunition
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that will help
stabilize your faith.
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Also, maybe, have
you take a different look
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at who God is and how God
is dealing with these issues.
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What is judgment and what are
the results of that judgment?
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So we're gonna give you--
you're back in school now.
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So you're taking some notes,
we won't give you any homework
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but you are taking some notes.
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And this is information
that you need to have,
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so we want you to
pay real good attention,
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because this is very important.
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Couple of things, I
think, before we go to our song
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I want to go
back to our free offer
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for the evening, dare
I forget or ere I forget.
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The free offer is "Does
God Love Sinners Forever?"
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written by Danny Shelton.
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Is there a hell?
How long will it burn?
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Very simple, very direct,
very well done book on hell
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and what happens after death.
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Something we'd
like to send to you,
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we'd be more than happy
to put it in your hands.
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If you will but
call us, (618) 627-4651,
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(618) 627-4651.
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Or email us, free
offer, freeoffer@3abn.org,
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we will get this
right out to you.
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It would be our
pleasure to do so.
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Before we go back to, I
guess, and have him speak more
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on this very,
very important topic,
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we want to hear little
bit more from Tim Parton,
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our friend, great guy as
we said in the first half.
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Again, he's going
to be playing a medley,
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it's called the
"In the Garden Medley."
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This is Tim Parton.
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Tim Parton, beautifully done.
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Just really
wonderful song, songs and very,
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very well played,
really, really neat guy.
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My guest is Felix
and I want to say Felix,
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but I know better,
my wife being Latino,
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I know--and she would
correct me when she watches us
00:09:03.61\00:09:05.56
and she'd go, see that's Felix,
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you know, that
"e" is an "a." Yes.
00:09:06.99\00:09:08.42
So that's Felix Cortez. Yes.
00:09:08.45\00:09:10.04
And just a really
neat guy, somebody that,
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in the short tim we've
been here, I really like.
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This is his first
time on the 3ABN camp
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with us asking him how he--
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what he thought
about what he's seeing.
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He got in late last
night, so he hasn't seen
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the real lay of
the land yet. Yes.
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Came over here just as--
the studio's pretty much it,
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but it's a very big campus.
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And you were telling me
that you do have a broadcasting
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or production
department at Montemorelos.
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And I know, we've
shot some stuff down there.
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Yes, there is a
school of communication.
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And they record programs
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for different
television networks
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in Inter-American
and South America.
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Yes, yes.
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There are like, I
think, 3, 4, 5 programs,
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different series that they--
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I see. Yeah.
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I think we've gotten a
few of those things up here,
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I remember seeing some
things from the school.
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I have not yet
been on the campus,
00:10:01.15\00:10:03.06
I think, my wife has.
00:10:03.09\00:10:04.46
And I wanted to find an
excuse to come down there.
00:10:04.49\00:10:06.24
Yeah, you should be there.
00:10:06.27\00:10:07.80
We're going to find an
excuse so you can come.
00:10:07.83\00:10:10.20
Indeed. Yeah.
00:10:10.23\00:10:11.60
Praise the Lord. Yeah.
00:10:11.63\00:10:13.00
Well, have Bible, will
travel, so I do preach.
00:10:13.03\00:10:14.98
Yeah. We'd be glad to do so.
00:10:15.01\00:10:17.04
We've been talking about
and dealing with, in particular,
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the subjects of death and hell.
00:10:21.62\00:10:23.54
And when we left, we were
moving into the New Testament,
00:10:23.57\00:10:27.10
but you said
something that kind of stuck
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in my mind that when
New Testament readers
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and writers read
some of these passages
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that are problematic for us,
it was not problematic for them,
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because they had
Old Testament references
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and things that
had gone on before.
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Sort of mind that a
little bit for me, Felix.
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Yes.
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The Old Testament
context, for the New Testament
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is just
foundational, foundational.
00:10:51.48\00:10:55.61
I wanted to say something
else about the Old Testament
00:10:55.64\00:10:59.28
that is going to help understand
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what is happening
in the New Testament.
00:11:00.71\00:11:03.78
To give you one
example, for example,
00:11:03.81\00:11:05.50
the word for spirit
in the Old Testament,
00:11:05.53\00:11:09.29
Ruach--Ruach. In Hebrew.
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That word has many
different meanings.
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It could mean, for
example, breeze, wind,
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breath, sense, mind, heart.
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So it could mean
many different things.
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Yes, yes.
00:11:27.61\00:11:28.99
So basically these were the
inward part of the individual.
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But when the spirit
comes back into the kith.
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Elijah, for example,
what comes back is not spirit,
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it's the breath.
It's breath, yeah.
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Respiration. Yes.
00:11:41.43\00:11:42.80
He began to breathe
again, that's what happened.
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And what was
departing from Rachel
00:11:45.67\00:11:48.59
when she was
dying was her breath.
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Yes, yeah. That's important.
00:11:50.69\00:11:52.16
But then Jesus
says, "Father into hands--
00:11:52.19\00:11:55.14
into thy hands I
command my spirit."
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Yes. What is he doing there?
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He's commanding everything
that is interior life,
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his mind, his
heart, his hopes, his--
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so he's not
commanding an entity he has,
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but he's giving to
God the-- all his hopes,
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his aspirations that
are described as his spirit.
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Because spirit
is the inner life.
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Yes, yes.
00:12:33.30\00:12:34.67
So "into thy hands
I command my spirit,
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" should not be understood
in the Greco-Roman context,
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should be understood in
the Old Testament context.
00:12:39.16\00:12:41.67
Context. Yes, this--
00:12:41.70\00:12:43.07
all this interior life, all this
mind and heart that he hands
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into the
Father's-- so he's like,
00:12:47.29\00:12:48.66
"don't forget my
hopes." Yes, yes.
00:12:48.69\00:12:50.82
Put them into your
hands and bring me back
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to life as you
promised. Yes, yes.
00:12:53.12\00:12:54.99
Don't forget me.
That's what is going on.
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You touched on a
word which may be--
00:12:57.27\00:13:00.65
a little phrase
that may be misconstrued,
00:13:00.68\00:13:02.27
you said it is
the interior life.
00:13:02.30\00:13:03.98
As we look at the
Hebrew word Ruach,
00:13:04.01\00:13:06.98
is there any
instance in your studies
00:13:07.01\00:13:09.75
that attaches
any sort of conscious
00:13:09.78\00:13:12.40
existence to Ruach? No.
00:13:12.43\00:13:15.98
Ruach cannot exist
apart from the body.
00:13:16.01\00:13:20.08
You see Ruach and bodies,
it is--they form one unity.
00:13:20.11\00:13:26.89
When you separate them,
you have nothing, you see?
00:13:26.92\00:13:31.45
They are the interior life
00:13:31.48\00:13:33.41
that needs the
exterior which is--
00:13:33.44\00:13:35.62
I see. Which is the body.
00:13:35.65\00:13:37.02
You cannot have the
interior independent,
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it has to be together.
00:13:40.09\00:13:42.68
So there cannot be-- by the way,
00:13:42.71\00:13:44.82
animals have this breath
of life and they are referred
00:13:44.85\00:13:50.40
to sometimes as having spirit
because of this breath of life.
00:13:50.43\00:13:53.53
Also our souls as well,
because of the breath of life.
00:13:53.56\00:13:58.71
So not only humans
have this characterization.
00:13:58.74\00:14:04.95
So yes, they are one thing
00:14:04.98\00:14:08.15
and spirit and
body they form a unity.
00:14:08.18\00:14:12.97
If you separate them,
both of them stop existing.
00:14:13.00\00:14:16.18
Stop existing. Yeah.
00:14:16.21\00:14:17.69
So the New
Testament writers and readers
00:14:17.72\00:14:20.33
were armed with
that context-- Yes.
00:14:20.36\00:14:21.76
And was sort of
in their minds. Yes.
00:14:21.79\00:14:23.92
And I like this idea
that we moved from a Hebrew
00:14:23.95\00:14:29.18
or an ancient context to
a more Greco-Roman context--
00:14:29.21\00:14:31.53
And we today are, sort of, Yes.
00:14:31.56\00:14:33.43
I'll use the word slaves
to that Greco-Roman thought.
00:14:33.46\00:14:36.50
Yeah, that Greek
thought and so we filter
00:14:36.53\00:14:40.72
all of these
passages through that thought
00:14:40.75\00:14:43.51
and, of course, that lens
is a bad lens to look through.
00:14:43.54\00:14:46.53
You look through a
bad pair of glasses--
00:14:46.56\00:14:48.04
Because you're
getting an obscured
00:14:48.07\00:14:49.46
sort of look at what's going on.
00:14:49.49\00:14:50.86
Yes. All right.
00:14:50.89\00:14:52.26
So now we wanna look
at some of these passages,
00:14:52.29\00:14:55.17
dear professor, and sort of
arm ourselves for the battle.
00:14:55.20\00:15:00.95
What do we look at first?
00:15:00.98\00:15:02.35
Let's go to Philippians 1:24,
00:15:02.38\00:15:05.48
which is an interesting passage.
00:15:05.51\00:15:07.18
It says there,
Philippians 1:24--
00:15:07.21\00:15:14.25
You know it's
interesting, and let us say
00:15:14.28\00:15:16.58
both of us have
iPads here-- Yes.
00:15:16.61\00:15:19.03
And we have our
Bibles on our iPads.
00:15:19.06\00:15:21.09
But when you want to
study, you go to the word,
00:15:21.12\00:15:23.18
you know, you got-- Yeah.
00:15:23.21\00:15:24.88
That's something--
It feels different.
00:15:24.91\00:15:26.28
It feels
different, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:15:26.31\00:15:28.93
So Philippians 1:24 says there--
00:15:28.96\00:15:33.35
in fact verse 23-- Yes.
00:15:37.16\00:15:39.80
"For I'm
hard-pressed between the two,
00:15:39.83\00:15:42.17
having a desire to
depart and be with Christ
00:15:42.20\00:15:45.79
which is better--far
better, nevertheless to remain
00:15:45.82\00:15:49.58
in the flesh is
more needful for you."
00:15:49.61\00:15:52.49
What is this meaning of
depart and being with Christ?
00:15:52.52\00:15:56.66
He's talking
about death. Is he okay?
00:15:56.69\00:16:00.34
He was prisoner
and he says, "Well,
00:16:00.37\00:16:03.00
it wouldn't be bad for me
to die and be with Christ."
00:16:03.03\00:16:05.77
And you'll see there. Yeah. Yes.
00:16:05.80\00:16:07.20
You have the soul that
goes to heaven and is with God.
00:16:07.23\00:16:11.13
But you see for
Paul, when you read Paul,
00:16:11.16\00:16:16.17
you're going to find
that we are in Christ now.
00:16:16.20\00:16:19.79
When we accept
Jesus, we are in Christ
00:16:19.82\00:16:22.68
and we don't need
to die to be in Christ.
00:16:22.71\00:16:24.94
Yes.
00:16:24.97\00:16:26.34
And then he's going to--
just a few verses later on,
00:16:26.37\00:16:30.35
Philippians 4:13
says that, when we die
00:16:30.38\00:16:34.43
and Jesus comes
back and resurrects us,
00:16:34.46\00:16:38.10
Then we're going to
be forever with the Lord.
00:16:38.13\00:16:40.68
Yes. So he was looking
00:16:40.71\00:16:42.08
for resurrection
to be with the Lord.
00:16:42.11\00:16:44.37
So what did he
means-- what does he means
00:16:44.40\00:16:46.37
when he says that, "to
die and be with Christ?"
00:16:46.40\00:16:50.02
You know, it has to
do with the perspective
00:16:50.05\00:16:52.57
with which you
read this passage.
00:16:52.60\00:16:56.63
If you die, since
death is unconscious--
00:16:56.66\00:17:01.61
There's no sense of time
for you--for a person who die,
00:17:01.64\00:17:06.55
death is a
twinkle of an eye. Yes.
00:17:06.58\00:17:10.55
He dies--just
open-- close his eyes,
00:17:10.58\00:17:13.78
opens again and he's
is in the resurrection.
00:17:13.81\00:17:17.23
For the person who is
alive and sees another persons
00:17:17.26\00:17:20.84
to die is different. Oh, yes.
00:17:20.87\00:17:22.98
There--there's a
big span of time.
00:17:23.01\00:17:25.99
So in that sense, to
die and be with the Lord,
00:17:26.02\00:17:29.10
immediately, it has to do
with this idea that death is
00:17:29.13\00:17:32.52
unconscious, you die,
you don't have any conscience
00:17:32.55\00:17:37.99
of the passing of
time, then you resurrect.
00:17:38.02\00:17:40.51
Just open your eyes again
and you are with the Lord.
00:17:40.54\00:17:42.97
And that's what he says
in Philippians 13 through 17.
00:17:43.00\00:17:46.34
That when Jesus
comes and resurrects us--
00:17:46.37\00:17:48.84
Yes. Then we
will be with the Lord.
00:17:48.87\00:17:51.51
So that's what he's--
that's what he's saying.
00:17:51.54\00:17:55.97
I like that.
00:17:56.00\00:17:57.37
So the idea-- and
you touched on this,
00:17:57.40\00:17:59.59
it's a good foundational
point, that Christ came to say
00:17:59.62\00:18:04.99
among other things
that you could have
00:18:05.02\00:18:06.48
a fully
functioning complete relation
00:18:06.51\00:18:08.55
with me here and now. Yes.
00:18:08.58\00:18:10.20
You don't need to
die for that to happen.
00:18:10.23\00:18:13.36
I am come that you have my life
00:18:13.39\00:18:14.89
and have abundant
life here and now.
00:18:14.92\00:18:16.91
Yes.
00:18:16.94\00:18:18.31
So the idea that we've
got to fly off to be with him,
00:18:18.34\00:18:20.65
you know, we can have
that relationship here--
00:18:20.68\00:18:22.61
Yes. While we're still alive.
00:18:22.64\00:18:24.01
And we need to be resurrected--
00:18:24.04\00:18:25.41
Yes, yes. To be
with Christ again.
00:18:25.44\00:18:26.81
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:18:26.84\00:18:28.21
That's what
Philippians 4:13-17 says.
00:18:28.24\00:18:31.36
It's really good.
00:18:31.39\00:18:32.76
So that's the text that
we need to sort of put down
00:18:32.79\00:18:34.16
and put a line through because
it's very, very important--
00:18:34.19\00:18:38.34
For our understanding
of what happens at death.
00:18:38.37\00:18:41.32
And that particular
text, because that text
00:18:41.35\00:18:43.74
in Philippians is
tossed around kind of a lot.
00:18:43.77\00:18:45.69
Yes. We see it a lot.
00:18:45.72\00:18:47.09
That we've got--and
it's Paul's desire, you know,
00:18:47.12\00:18:49.61
that I want to
die and just go away.
00:18:49.64\00:18:51.43
No, Christ can
have a full relationship
00:18:51.46\00:18:53.45
with us now. Okay.
00:18:53.48\00:18:54.96
Now another-- and there
are some passages, Luke 16.
00:18:54.99\00:18:58.32
Luke 16, the parable of
the rich man and Lazarus.
00:18:58.35\00:19:01.39
Oh, yes. That is a
very important passage
00:19:01.42\00:19:04.70
and we need to go
there and we need to read it.
00:19:04.73\00:19:10.63
And we're going to
take a little more time
00:19:10.66\00:19:12.15
with this one here.
00:19:12.18\00:19:13.66
Luke 16, is a parable
that Jesus tells the Pharisees,
00:19:13.69\00:19:18.66
well, probably the disciples,
when the Pharisees are hearing.
00:19:18.69\00:19:23.79
And you know the
story, there is a poor man
00:19:23.82\00:19:26.94
who is lying at
the door of a rich man
00:19:26.97\00:19:31.01
and the name of the
poor man is Lazarus--
00:19:31.04\00:19:32.78
And he desires to
be fed with the crumbs
00:19:32.81\00:19:35.39
that fall from the
table of the rich man.
00:19:35.42\00:19:37.62
And then they died and then
one goes to the bosom of Abraham
00:19:37.65\00:19:44.58
and the other one
goes to the fire of Hades.
00:19:44.61\00:19:47.39
Yes.
00:19:47.42\00:19:48.79
And then the rich man says,
"Hey, send Lazarus to help me,
00:19:48.82\00:19:52.87
to tip the tip of
his finger in water
00:19:52.90\00:19:57.43
and refresh me a little
bit, " and then Abraham says,
00:19:57.46\00:20:02.42
"No, it's a big divide
00:20:02.45\00:20:04.56
between us--" A
big gulf, yes, fixed.
00:20:04.59\00:20:06.43
We cannot go. Yes.
00:20:06.46\00:20:07.83
Well, send him to my
brother so that they understand
00:20:07.86\00:20:11.09
what is going on and
they don't come here.
00:20:11.12\00:20:13.58
So this is a very
interesting passage.
00:20:13.61\00:20:15.31
Yes, yes.
00:20:15.34\00:20:16.71
You see, the fire that is
burning and this wicked man,
00:20:16.74\00:20:22.84
rich man is suffering there.
00:20:22.87\00:20:26.20
How do we understand that?
00:20:26.23\00:20:27.63
Does that negate
what we have been saying
00:20:27.66\00:20:30.67
in the New
Testament? It doesn't.
00:20:30.70\00:20:33.49
But we need to understand
00:20:33.52\00:20:34.89
what is that we
are finding here.
00:20:34.92\00:20:37.85
We need to understand
that this is a parable.
00:20:37.88\00:20:40.62
And parables are illustrations
to drive home some point.
00:20:40.65\00:20:47.14
And important, there was
a man in the AD 1st century
00:20:47.17\00:20:52.04
called Theon and he gave
one of the best definition
00:20:52.07\00:20:57.29
of what a parable is.
00:20:57.32\00:20:59.06
And he said that
parable is a fictitious
00:20:59.09\00:21:01.39
saying picturing truth.
00:21:01.42\00:21:04.37
We have a fictitious saying--
00:21:04.40\00:21:06.27
Yes. Picturing truth.
00:21:06.30\00:21:08.22
Something that
is a made-up story
00:21:08.25\00:21:11.37
to say a truth. Yes.
00:21:11.40\00:21:13.16
So Jesus made up this
story to drive home some truth.
00:21:13.19\00:21:18.67
What is that truth? Yeah.
00:21:18.70\00:21:20.15
Illustrations have that problem.
00:21:20.18\00:21:21.97
When you make an illustration,
00:21:22.00\00:21:23.37
not everything you say is used
00:21:23.40\00:21:25.82
to drive home a point. Okay.
00:21:25.85\00:21:27.22
Now I want to
stop there, because
00:21:27.25\00:21:28.62
I knew you're going there-- Yes.
00:21:28.65\00:21:30.02
Then as you get
there I wanna stop.
00:21:30.05\00:21:31.89
It was an important point,
that when you have a parable
00:21:31.92\00:21:35.13
you cannot, as we
say parse a parable
00:21:35.16\00:21:38.22
because every
element in that parable
00:21:38.25\00:21:42.28
is not important to where
you're going in the parable.
00:21:42.31\00:21:44.93
The parable is
where we're driving to,
00:21:44.96\00:21:47.21
not the car or the
seat or the seatbelt,
00:21:47.24\00:21:50.74
it's where we're going. Yes.
00:21:50.77\00:21:52.14
So you don't say well,
the seat belt didn't fit--
00:21:52.17\00:21:54.30
Or the lights weren't
on or the tires were flat
00:21:54.33\00:21:56.94
because that's not important.
00:21:56.97\00:21:58.35
The important is
where we're going.
00:21:58.38\00:21:59.89
So any illustration will
never be totally perfect.
00:21:59.92\00:22:04.52
Never. Because they're
based on stuff that you know.
00:22:04.55\00:22:06.92
So Christ used elements
that they were familiar with.
00:22:06.95\00:22:10.14
Put them
together and made a stew
00:22:10.17\00:22:12.08
and then gave it to them. Yes.
00:22:12.11\00:22:13.48
So don't look so much
at the peas and the pot
00:22:13.51\00:22:15.23
and the-- look at the stew.
00:22:15.26\00:22:16.63
Does that make sense?
00:22:16.66\00:22:18.03
Is that correct?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:22:18.06\00:22:19.43
So you don't then necessarily
draw a doctrinal premise
00:22:19.46\00:22:23.73
from a parable. No.
00:22:23.76\00:22:25.13
Because it's just
using elements that were--
00:22:25.16\00:22:27.67
I could tell a
story about the president
00:22:27.70\00:22:30.52
of the United States
or the recent election
00:22:30.55\00:22:32.28
or anything because
we know those things.
00:22:32.31\00:22:35.97
Yeah. But you
don't stick with that.
00:22:36.00\00:22:37.97
You look at the
goal of the parable.
00:22:38.00\00:22:41.14
And I think
that's very important,
00:22:41.17\00:22:42.54
particularly in this one. Yes.
00:22:42.57\00:22:43.94
Because you can
get really off-track
00:22:43.97\00:22:46.32
looking at the
different elements
00:22:46.35\00:22:47.72
in this particular parable. Yes.
00:22:47.75\00:22:49.12
For example you
make an illustration,
00:22:49.15\00:22:51.97
a plane is like a
flying bird-- Yeah.
00:22:52.00\00:22:55.42
But plane and
birds are different--
00:22:55.45\00:22:57.53
Yes. Yes. In many respects--
00:22:57.56\00:22:59.15
And they are
similar in some respects.
00:22:59.18\00:23:01.53
We need to pay
attention to their respects
00:23:01.56\00:23:03.19
in which they are
similar. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:23:03.22\00:23:04.59
Both fly. Yes.
00:23:04.62\00:23:05.99
Both have wings. Right.
00:23:06.02\00:23:07.39
But one is made of steel
and another is made of flesh--
00:23:07.42\00:23:09.88
So we need to be
careful with this--
00:23:09.91\00:23:12.00
Yeah. The same
happens in the parable.
00:23:12.03\00:23:14.61
Yeah. Now Jesus identifies
00:23:14.64\00:23:17.28
what are the
important points of the parable.
00:23:17.31\00:23:19.76
Yes. And that
is important point.
00:23:19.79\00:23:21.24
The important point is
found at the end of the parable.
00:23:21.27\00:23:23.88
In verse 30 and 31,
he says, "and he saith,
00:23:27.57\00:23:32.98
'No, father Abraham,
but if one goes to them
00:23:33.01\00:23:37.39
from the death,
they will repent.
00:23:37.42\00:23:40.53
But he said to him,
if they do not hear Moses
00:23:40.56\00:23:44.08
and the prophets,
neither will they be
00:23:44.11\00:23:47.04
persuaded though one rises
or one rise from the dead.'"
00:23:47.07\00:23:50.54
From the dead.
00:23:50.57\00:23:51.94
So the point that
Jesus want to say,
00:23:51.97\00:23:53.59
"hey, you need to pay
attention to the prophets,
00:23:53.62\00:23:55.63
to Moses and the prophets.
00:23:55.66\00:23:57.03
You need to pay
attention to the Bible--"
00:23:57.06\00:23:58.76
Yes. That's what he says.
00:23:58.79\00:24:00.16
Now why is he saying that?
00:24:00.19\00:24:01.56
Because there is a very
interesting context to this,
00:24:01.59\00:24:03.45
if you read Luke
13, 14, 15 and 16--
00:24:03.48\00:24:08.19
Jesus in the middle of a debate,
controversy with the Pharisees.
00:24:08.22\00:24:14.30
The Pharisees accused
Jesus that he is a sinner
00:24:14.33\00:24:17.66
because he
breaks the Sabbath. Yes.
00:24:17.69\00:24:19.85
And because he
eats with sinners.
00:24:19.88\00:24:23.47
And Jesus says,
"No, I'm not a sinner.
00:24:23.50\00:24:26.76
You are the sinners,
because of your love of money,
00:24:26.79\00:24:31.59
and because you
make--you evade truth."
00:24:31.62\00:24:37.28
In the sight of the people
you look like you're true--
00:24:37.31\00:24:41.21
Yes. But you evade truth.
00:24:41.24\00:24:43.63
So what Jesus is
trying to say here, you know,
00:24:43.66\00:24:46.80
you need to obey
what the law says.
00:24:46.83\00:24:51.76
And the context
of parable of Luke 16
00:24:51.79\00:24:54.09
is about loving money
and not loving the neighbor.
00:24:54.12\00:24:58.08
And he's saying, you
know, in the Old Testament
00:24:58.11\00:25:00.99
there are lot of
passages that we're to take care
00:25:01.02\00:25:03.56
of our neighbors. Yes, yes.
00:25:03.59\00:25:04.96
We're to take care of
people with our wealth,
00:25:04.99\00:25:09.51
but you love wealth
instead of loving your neighbor.
00:25:09.54\00:25:13.94
So you bend--you bend
your way around the laws,
00:25:13.97\00:25:18.84
people think that
you're obeying the law,
00:25:18.87\00:25:20.66
but you're not. You're not.
00:25:20.69\00:25:22.35
So then he says this story.
00:25:22.38\00:25:24.93
Because in Luke
14, he was in a banquet
00:25:24.96\00:25:28.88
with Pharisees and the Pharisees
said to him in Luke 14,
00:25:28.91\00:25:33.95
you know, "Blessed
the one who eats with God
00:25:33.98\00:25:36.53
in the kingdom of God."
00:25:36.56\00:25:38.46
So they are
expecting to have this--
00:25:38.49\00:25:40.80
Yes. Banquet.
00:25:40.83\00:25:42.92
Now Pharisees
believed that in heaven
00:25:42.95\00:25:45.51
there will be some
people in the bosom of Abraham
00:25:45.54\00:25:47.63
in a banquet with Abraham,
and others will be sent to hell.
00:25:47.66\00:25:52.90
That's what they believed. Yes.
00:25:52.93\00:25:55.18
Sadducees didn't
believe that. Right.
00:25:55.21\00:25:56.99
And many people
didn't believe that,
00:25:57.02\00:25:58.39
but Pharisees
did. Pharisees did.
00:25:58.42\00:25:59.79
Yes, yes, yes.
00:25:59.82\00:26:01.19
So Jesus said,
"I'm going to tell you
00:26:01.22\00:26:02.59
a story about a rich man."
00:26:02.62\00:26:04.30
This rich man
probably was a Pharisee.
00:26:04.33\00:26:07.20
This rich man died, he probably,
00:26:07.23\00:26:09.51
he did everything well
and he died and he thought
00:26:09.54\00:26:12.91
that he was going to be
in the bosom of Abraham.
00:26:12.94\00:26:16.14
Why he's not in
the bosom of Abraham?
00:26:16.17\00:26:19.47
Well, because he
didn't keep the law.
00:26:19.50\00:26:21.16
Yeah. Why
didn't he keep the law?
00:26:21.19\00:26:23.06
Because he didn't
take care of the poor man
00:26:23.09\00:26:24.98
who was at the door.
00:26:25.01\00:26:27.37
So he end up in
the wrong side of hell.
00:26:27.40\00:26:30.58
Yes, yes.
00:26:30.61\00:26:31.98
And then he says to Abraham,
send someone to tell my friends.
00:26:32.01\00:26:37.27
And Abraham
says, "They have Moses,
00:26:37.30\00:26:40.52
they have the prophets.
00:26:40.55\00:26:42.36
They need to hear
Moses and the prophets
00:26:42.39\00:26:44.29
and do what the
prophets say." Yeah.
00:26:44.32\00:26:46.25
So the parable is about
obeying the word of God.
00:26:46.28\00:26:49.18
Now if you go to
the Old Testament,
00:26:49.21\00:26:51.11
the Old Testament
doesn't have anything
00:26:51.14\00:26:52.51
to say about hell.
00:26:52.54\00:26:53.94
So if you try to teach
hell from this parable,
00:26:53.97\00:26:57.65
you're shooting
in your feet. Yes.
00:26:57.68\00:26:59.96
Because the main
topic and the main teaching
00:26:59.99\00:27:04.77
of the parable was
that you need to hear
00:27:04.80\00:27:06.17
what the Old
Testament says. Yeah.
00:27:06.20\00:27:07.57
But the Old
Testament doesn't say anything
00:27:07.60\00:27:09.00
about hell. Yeah.
00:27:09.03\00:27:10.87
So it is an illustration
to drive home the point.
00:27:10.90\00:27:13.60
You need to take
care of your brothers,
00:27:13.63\00:27:15.16
you need to obey
what the word of God says,
00:27:15.19\00:27:17.24
you need to be careful
with mammon, the richness,
00:27:17.27\00:27:20.98
riches, and taking
care of your brother.
00:27:21.01\00:27:23.61
Otherwise you're going to end up
in the wrong side after death.
00:27:23.64\00:27:28.85
Yeah, let's talk
for just a moment
00:27:28.88\00:27:30.25
about the importance of
understanding the context
00:27:30.28\00:27:34.43
before you try to
do any kind of exegesis
00:27:34.46\00:27:36.53
or any kind of interpretation
or explanation or application
00:27:36.56\00:27:39.78
to modern day life, because
00:27:39.81\00:27:41.51
this is highly
contextual. Of course.
00:27:41.54\00:27:44.27
And if you try to
take it out of the context,
00:27:44.30\00:27:45.87
you really go
off into deep space
00:27:45.90\00:27:49.17
because you have nothing
to ground your understanding
00:27:49.20\00:27:52.05
of what Christ is
trying to say. Yes.
00:27:52.08\00:27:54.21
Do you know, if you take
something out of context,
00:27:54.24\00:27:56.13
you're destroying the
meaning of that thing.
00:27:56.16\00:27:59.02
Yes. That happens
a lot in politics.
00:27:59.05\00:28:04.50
You just take a sound
bit and you make it say
00:28:04.53\00:28:08.30
a completely different thing--
00:28:08.33\00:28:09.71
Very true. From the original.
00:28:09.74\00:28:11.96
And we do politics
sometimes with Jesus.
00:28:11.99\00:28:13.90
Oh, yes. We take His words
00:28:13.93\00:28:15.70
out of context. Yes.
00:28:15.73\00:28:17.10
And we make Him say
what he doesn't say.
00:28:17.13\00:28:19.27
Yes, yes, yes.
00:28:19.30\00:28:20.67
So that is a
very important point
00:28:20.70\00:28:22.07
that you have raised. Yes.
00:28:22.10\00:28:23.47
The context will help
you find the meaning of what,
00:28:23.50\00:28:26.47
of the sayings of Jesus.
00:28:26.50\00:28:31.64
Very power--I'm glad
you started with that one
00:28:31.67\00:28:33.75
because that one is
tossed around quite a lot--
00:28:33.78\00:28:36.13
And it is highly
subject to its context
00:28:36.16\00:28:38.31
and you cannot
really understand it
00:28:38.34\00:28:39.73
without
understanding the background
00:28:39.76\00:28:41.20
and the context in
which this text falls.
00:28:41.23\00:28:43.43
Yes. Another one
is Revelation 6:9.
00:28:43.46\00:28:46.13
Okay. Revelation 6:9,
it's an interesting passage.
00:28:46.16\00:28:51.90
This passage that we
have here is about...
00:28:51.93\00:28:54.83
"When he opened the fifth seal,
00:28:58.68\00:29:01.50
I saw under the
altar the souls of those
00:29:01.53\00:29:04.53
who had been slain
for the word of God
00:29:04.56\00:29:07.95
and for the
testimony which they held.
00:29:07.98\00:29:11.67
And they cried with
a loud voice saying,
00:29:11.70\00:29:14.67
'how long, O Lord, Holy
and true until You judge
00:29:14.70\00:29:18.30
and avenge our blood on
those who dwell on the earth?'
00:29:18.33\00:29:22.97
" So you have these
souls, these people--
00:29:23.00\00:29:27.66
Yes. Under the
altar crying to God,
00:29:27.69\00:29:32.03
when are you
going to make justice?
00:29:32.06\00:29:34.88
When are You
going to make justice?
00:29:34.91\00:29:36.65
So this is an interesting
passage because people say,
00:29:36.68\00:29:39.85
you know, there
are people in heaven
00:29:39.88\00:29:42.22
under the altar in
heaven and saying--
00:29:42.25\00:29:43.68
Yes, yes. And saying this.
00:29:43.71\00:29:45.59
Now there's something
very interesting here.
00:29:45.62\00:29:49.38
There were two
altars in the Tabernacle.
00:29:49.41\00:29:54.50
There was a
prayer altar of incense
00:29:54.53\00:29:58.13
and there was an
altar of sacrifice.
00:29:58.16\00:29:59.60
Of sacrifice, yes.
00:29:59.63\00:30:01.04
Many people think that
this is referring to the altar
00:30:01.07\00:30:04.32
of incense and since there
is a heavenly sanctuary--Right.
00:30:04.35\00:30:08.53
You know, the ark of
God is the throne of God
00:30:08.56\00:30:11.48
and then you have
these candle lights
00:30:11.51\00:30:16.20
and are
described in Revelation 1,
00:30:16.23\00:30:20.22
for example, Jesus
walking around them.
00:30:20.25\00:30:23.45
So all this is
Tabernacle in heaven,
00:30:23.48\00:30:26.34
that's what they are thinking.
00:30:26.37\00:30:28.46
But there is a second
altar, the altar of sacrifice.
00:30:28.49\00:30:32.04
Sacrifice, yes, yes.
00:30:32.07\00:30:33.60
And now when you
sacrifice an animal,
00:30:33.63\00:30:36.81
the blood of the
animal, you will pour it down,
00:30:36.84\00:30:39.49
according to Leviticus,
a lot of passages-- Yes.
00:30:39.52\00:30:42.11
You will pour down
the blood under the altar
00:30:42.14\00:30:45.57
in the sides of the altar.
00:30:45.60\00:30:47.68
So when the animal was
killed, the blood was poured
00:30:47.71\00:30:51.71
on the side in
the base of the altar.
00:30:51.74\00:30:55.47
So this altar probably
is referring to the altar
00:30:55.50\00:30:59.47
of sacrifice, not to
the altar of the incense,
00:30:59.50\00:31:02.59
because you referred to
the blood of people--Yes.
00:31:02.62\00:31:05.89
That has been shed
and is being poured--
00:31:05.92\00:31:08.71
On the altar and that
is the altar of sacrifice.
00:31:08.74\00:31:11.27
I understand, yes.
00:31:11.30\00:31:12.67
Now where is the
altar of sacrifice?
00:31:12.70\00:31:14.29
In heavens or on earth?
According to Jesus' death
00:31:14.32\00:31:18.19
on the cross in Hebrews
is parallel to the death
00:31:18.22\00:31:23.95
of the sacrifice,
the animal sacrifice.
00:31:23.98\00:31:26.12
And so the cross was in
earth, so this altar should be
00:31:26.15\00:31:31.44
symbolically--Yes. Earth.
00:31:31.47\00:31:33.97
They are not in heaven,
they are on earth. Right.
00:31:34.00\00:31:37.08
You see, C. A., in the
time of the New Testament,
00:31:37.11\00:31:40.70
there were--for example
we have Philo and Josephus,
00:31:40.73\00:31:43.11
both of them were
living in that time. Yes.
00:31:43.14\00:31:45.60
They compared the
universe to a sanctuary,
00:31:45.63\00:31:48.95
but for both of them, the altar
of the sacrifice was on earth.
00:31:48.98\00:31:53.51
It's interesting. Yes.
00:31:53.54\00:31:54.91
That is the
atrium, was on earth.
00:31:54.94\00:31:57.10
So this idea, probably,
of the altar of sacrifice
00:31:57.13\00:31:59.74
and the blood of the souls,
00:31:59.77\00:32:02.08
of these
persons, it is on earth.
00:32:02.11\00:32:04.93
Now we need to
understand that this, of course,
00:32:04.96\00:32:09.23
this passage is highly symbolic.
00:32:09.26\00:32:11.29
You have choruses and
you have a lot of imagery,
00:32:11.32\00:32:14.36
so it's symbolic of something
that is happening. Yes.
00:32:14.39\00:32:17.00
It is symbolic of what?
What is it pointing towards?
00:32:17.03\00:32:22.30
It is symbolic of
what happened with Abel.
00:32:22.33\00:32:25.47
Do you remember Abel? Mm-hmm.
00:32:25.50\00:32:27.07
He was killed. Yes.
00:32:27.10\00:32:28.55
And his blood was
shed and God said to Cain,
00:32:28.58\00:32:32.88
"The blood of your brother
is crying out from the ground
00:32:32.91\00:32:35.73
of the earth to me,
claiming for justice."
00:32:35.76\00:32:39.95
The same is happening
with these righteous people.
00:32:39.98\00:32:42.85
And you know,
this is a very hopeful
00:32:42.88\00:32:44.95
and very--passage full of hope
because it is saying, you know,
00:32:44.98\00:32:48.79
God does not forget the
blood of his people. Amen.
00:32:48.82\00:32:52.39
And this blood,
they might be dead,
00:32:52.42\00:32:55.87
they may have been sacrificed,
but God has not forgotten. Yes.
00:32:55.90\00:33:00.59
That blood has been
shed and it's crying out,
00:33:00.62\00:33:03.33
it is like the blood of Abel,
00:33:03.36\00:33:05.72
crying out for
justice-- Crying out, yes.
00:33:05.75\00:33:07.12
And God is going to remember.
00:33:07.15\00:33:08.76
And, of course, he
remembers it in Revelation 15,
00:33:08.79\00:33:12.94
but we don't have
time to go there, yes.
00:33:12.97\00:33:17.52
We praise the Lord, we
praise the Lord for that.
00:33:17.55\00:33:19.48
And again, the people
who were recipients of this,
00:33:19.51\00:33:24.01
the immediate recipients,
understood that because
00:33:24.04\00:33:26.20
they knew the context
in which it was written.
00:33:26.23\00:33:27.69
Yes, of course. Yes, yes, yes.
00:33:27.72\00:33:29.49
Excellent, excellent.
00:33:29.52\00:33:30.89
Anything else in here
before we head to Revelation 14?
00:33:30.92\00:33:33.98
And we want to sort of tidy up.
00:33:34.01\00:33:35.48
Well, I think we now-- we
go to Revelation 14. Okay.
00:33:35.51\00:33:41.10
Revelation 14 is really, wow.
00:33:41.13\00:33:45.68
It says 14:9 and following.
00:33:45.71\00:33:48.80
It says,"Then a third
angel followed them saying
00:33:48.83\00:33:52.32
with a loud voice, 'if
anyone worships the beast
00:33:52.35\00:33:57.37
and his image
and receives his mark
00:33:57.40\00:34:00.65
on his forehead or on his hand,
00:34:00.68\00:34:02.82
he himself shall also drink
of the wine of the wrath of God
00:34:02.85\00:34:06.98
which is poured
out full strength
00:34:07.01\00:34:09.17
into the cup of his indignation.
00:34:09.20\00:34:11.23
He shall be tormented with fire
and brimstone in the presence
00:34:11.26\00:34:15.78
of the holy angels and
in the presence of the lamb.
00:34:15.81\00:34:18.89
And the smoke of their torment
ascends forever and ever.
00:34:18.92\00:34:23.07
And they have no
rest day or night,
00:34:23.10\00:34:26.25
who worship the
beast and his image,
00:34:26.28\00:34:28.55
and whomever receives
the mark of his name.'"
00:34:28.58\00:34:32.09
Well, this is-- Yes, yes.
00:34:32.12\00:34:33.49
they are burned with
fire forever and ever,
00:34:33.52\00:34:38.73
the smoke ascends
forever and ever-- Yes, yes.
00:34:38.76\00:34:40.75
Without rest, without rest. Yes.
00:34:40.78\00:34:43.99
So this day and night, it
is an imagery of something
00:34:44.02\00:34:50.49
that does not stop. Yes.
00:34:50.52\00:34:52.47
And Jesus says the
same in gospel when he talks
00:34:52.50\00:34:56.72
about a fire that
cannot be quenched.
00:34:56.75\00:34:59.11
Be quenched. Yes, yes.
00:34:59.14\00:35:00.51
So what is going
on here? As I told you
00:35:00.54\00:35:02.94
in the hour before-- Yes.
00:35:02.97\00:35:06.90
When they heard
this, they immediately
00:35:06.93\00:35:08.83
thought about Isaiah 34.
00:35:08.86\00:35:11.28
Because this is the
destruction of Edom.
00:35:11.31\00:35:14.53
Let's go to Isaiah 34,
00:35:14.56\00:35:16.42
which is a very
interesting passage there.
00:35:16.45\00:35:20.84
And you see--
00:35:25.20\00:35:26.69
you see Isaiah 34:6, it
says, "The sword of the Lord
00:35:34.32\00:35:40.23
is filled with blood, it is
made overflowing with fatness,
00:35:40.26\00:35:44.63
with the blood of lambs and
goats" et cetera, et cetera.
00:35:44.66\00:35:47.74
He's talking about the great
slaughter in the land of Edom.
00:35:47.77\00:35:50.86
He's talking about the judgment
God is going to bring upon Edom.
00:35:50.89\00:35:55.06
Then we go to the verse 8,
00:35:55.09\00:35:59.23
"For it is the day
of the Lord's vengeance,
00:35:59.26\00:36:02.90
the year of recompense
for the cause of Zion.
00:36:02.93\00:36:06.37
Its streams shall
be turned into pitch
00:36:06.40\00:36:09.35
and its dust into brimstone.
00:36:09.38\00:36:12.18
Its land shall
become burning pitch."
00:36:12.21\00:36:15.37
You see, you have
the burning pitch. Yes.
00:36:15.40\00:36:18.14
"It shall not be
quenched night or day."
00:36:18.17\00:36:21.64
It's the same imagery and say,
"its smoke shall ascend forever,
00:36:21.67\00:36:26.69
from generation to
generation it shall lie waste."
00:36:26.72\00:36:29.71
So you have burning pitch,
no rest day or night-- Yeah.
00:36:29.74\00:36:33.62
Ascending forever
and ever. Yes, yes.
00:36:33.65\00:36:35.60
So Isaiah 14 is quoting Edom,
00:36:35.63\00:36:38.02
the judgment
against Edom, in Isaiah 34.
00:36:38.05\00:36:42.20
Now the question I'm going
to ask, is Edom burning today?
00:36:42.23\00:36:45.44
Edom is not burning today. No.
00:36:45.47\00:36:47.16
But it is a lot of heat.
There is a big sun there.
00:36:47.19\00:36:50.15
I'd been there
and it's very warm.
00:36:50.18\00:36:52.78
But it's not burning. Yes.
00:36:52.81\00:36:54.72
But you see, when
you read this prophecy,
00:36:54.75\00:36:57.69
you find immediately
that this is an imagery
00:36:57.72\00:37:03.32
to describe a total destruction.
00:37:03.35\00:37:06.56
You see, let's go to verse 10.
00:37:06.59\00:37:10.46
You see, "Its smoke
shall ascend forever.
00:37:10.49\00:37:13.42
From generation to
generation it shall lie waste.
00:37:13.45\00:37:17.75
No one shall pass
through it forever and ever
00:37:17.78\00:37:20.49
but the pelican and the
porcupine shall posses it.
00:37:20.52\00:37:24.22
Also the owl and
raven shall dwell in it.
00:37:24.25\00:37:27.54
And He shall stretch it over it
00:37:27.57\00:37:30.03
the line of
confusion..." etcetera.
00:37:30.06\00:37:32.12
"They shall call its
nobles to the Kingdom but no one
00:37:32.15\00:37:35.08
shall be there and all
its princes shall be nothing."
00:37:35.11\00:37:38.70
Verse 13, "And the thorn
shall come up in its palaces,
00:37:38.73\00:37:42.46
nettles and
brambles in its fortresses.
00:37:42.49\00:37:45.24
It shall be a
habitation of jackals,
00:37:45.27\00:37:47.99
a courtyard for ostriches,
the wild beasts of the earth,
00:37:48.02\00:37:51.77
desert shall be
met with the jackals
00:37:51.80\00:37:54.81
and the wild goat shall
bleat to its companion,"
00:37:54.84\00:37:57.84
et cetera, you see. Yes.
00:37:57.87\00:37:59.89
You have here very
interesting imagery.
00:37:59.92\00:38:01.82
And imagery of the
rivers will be of pitch,
00:38:01.85\00:38:04.70
burning forever. Yes.
00:38:04.73\00:38:06.88
And then smoke ascending forever
without rest, day and night.
00:38:06.91\00:38:11.88
But exactly at the
same moment he says,
00:38:11.91\00:38:13.90
the jackals are
going to be there. Yes.
00:38:13.93\00:38:15.78
The ostriches are
going to be there.
00:38:15.81\00:38:19.67
All these thorns shall come up,
00:38:19.70\00:38:21.85
the brambles and the
nettles shall come up.
00:38:21.88\00:38:24.89
How do you understand
brambles and nettles and animals
00:38:24.92\00:38:27.83
and wild animals in
the land when it's burning
00:38:27.86\00:38:30.83
at the same time? Yeah.
00:38:30.86\00:38:32.25
Cannot be, it is imagery.
00:38:32.28\00:38:34.19
And this imagery is just saying
Edom with never be built again.
00:38:34.22\00:38:40.06
Yes. Yes. That's very powerful.
00:38:40.09\00:38:42.81
That he's using a
number of images to make
00:38:42.84\00:38:47.10
a particular point. Yes.
00:38:47.13\00:38:48.50
So you don't lock
down on the images per se,
00:38:48.53\00:38:51.14
but the point that
they are driving to.
00:38:51.17\00:38:52.65
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
00:38:52.68\00:38:54.05
And the images itself point out
that they cannot be understood
00:38:54.08\00:38:58.29
literally. Right. Right.
00:38:58.32\00:38:59.69
Because if you
understand them literally,
00:38:59.72\00:39:01.93
then you are
contradictory. Yeah.
00:39:01.96\00:39:03.68
And they conflict
in themselves-- Yes.
00:39:03.71\00:39:05.32
You got animals there
and something is burning
00:39:05.35\00:39:06.80
and you got things
growing and some things burning
00:39:06.83\00:39:08.53
and you know, if you
have a burning entity,
00:39:08.56\00:39:12.65
there's nothing around
it that's safe from that.
00:39:12.68\00:39:14.36
So if you look too closely,
the imagery tends to fall apart.
00:39:14.39\00:39:18.43
But you look at it as a whole
and look at where it's going.
00:39:18.46\00:39:20.67
The same-- That's powerful.
00:39:20.70\00:39:22.07
The same happens with Jesus'
description of Gehenna, hell.
00:39:22.10\00:39:25.73
Fire, that is not quenched
and the worm that does not die.
00:39:25.76\00:39:31.59
How do you have a worm
and fire at the same time?
00:39:31.62\00:39:34.83
You have one or the
other but not both--
00:39:34.86\00:39:37.10
Right. Because both are images--
00:39:37.13\00:39:38.62
Yes, yes. Of
complete destruction.
00:39:38.65\00:39:41.02
Destruction, yes.
Complete destruction.
00:39:41.05\00:39:42.57
Yes. Yes. Yes,
yes, that's important.
00:39:42.60\00:39:43.97
Now that helps us
go into another point
00:39:44.00\00:39:49.59
which is important, the point
of the fire that burns forever.
00:39:49.62\00:39:54.22
Jesus mentions this fire that
burn forever in several places.
00:39:54.25\00:39:59.34
For example,
let's go to Matthew 25.
00:39:59.37\00:40:04.49
Matthew 25, when he talks about
00:40:06.67\00:40:10.75
the goats to the left
and lambs to the right
00:40:10.78\00:40:18.39
and he says something there.
00:40:18.42\00:40:21.18
It's to the left, verse 41.
00:40:29.22\00:40:32.28
Matthew 25: 41. Here we go.
00:40:32.31\00:40:35.30
"Then He will also say
to those on the left hand,
00:40:35.33\00:40:39.77
'Depart from Me, you cursed,
into the everlasting fire
00:40:39.80\00:40:47.27
prepared for the
devil and his angels.'"
00:40:47.30\00:40:52.37
This everlasting fire,
what is this everlasting fire?
00:40:52.40\00:40:55.99
Do you know?
This everlasting fire
00:40:56.02\00:40:57.62
comes from the very
interesting word "ionious."
00:40:57.65\00:40:59.99
Uh-huh. Which is everlasting.
00:41:00.02\00:41:01.85
Everlasting, yes, yes, yes.
00:41:01.88\00:41:03.25
But ionious can refer
to two different things.
00:41:03.28\00:41:07.61
It can refer to things
regarding to the amount of time,
00:41:07.64\00:41:13.80
duration--duration,
amount of time or to quality.
00:41:13.83\00:41:18.44
Because ion was
a name of the age,
00:41:18.47\00:41:22.54
the coming age was according--
in the time of Jesus,
00:41:22.57\00:41:27.45
the coming age was
the age of the blessing
00:41:27.48\00:41:31.05
of the righteous. Yes.
00:41:31.08\00:41:32.45
The present age is
this present evil age.
00:41:32.48\00:41:35.50
So ion is this present age,
00:41:35.53\00:41:38.14
the coming age
and the following age.
00:41:38.17\00:41:40.05
So things that
belong to the following age
00:41:40.08\00:41:43.65
or they have impact
00:41:43.68\00:41:48.37
or result in that coming
age are things that are eternal.
00:41:48.40\00:41:55.21
Uh-huh. That is their quality.
00:41:55.24\00:41:59.44
For example, Jesus says
00:41:59.47\00:42:01.42
that to know me is to
have eternal life. Yes.
00:42:01.45\00:42:05.72
How do you can
have eternal life now?
00:42:05.75\00:42:08.31
Well, you can have it now
because the quality of life,
00:42:08.34\00:42:12.68
a life that belongs-- Yes.
00:42:12.71\00:42:14.08
To the coming age.
00:42:14.11\00:42:15.48
But then you're going to find
a lot of interesting expressions
00:42:15.51\00:42:19.47
about this eternal fire.
00:42:19.50\00:42:27.47
For example, you
have in Mark 3:29
00:42:27.50\00:42:30.95
and Mark 12:32
talking about eternal sin.
00:42:30.98\00:42:37.30
What is this eternal sin?
A sin that is done eternally
00:42:37.33\00:42:42.01
or is that sin that
is of eternal quality?
00:42:42.04\00:42:45.49
That is its results are eternal.
00:42:45.52\00:42:50.43
Yeah, the
consequences are eternal.
00:42:50.46\00:42:51.83
The consequences
are eternal. Yeah.
00:42:51.86\00:42:53.23
So you have an eternal sin.
00:42:53.26\00:42:54.63
Then you have Hebrews
6:2, eternal judgment.
00:42:54.66\00:42:58.44
Is that judgment
that goes on and on?
00:42:58.47\00:43:01.13
Some of the judgments
now look like eternal.
00:43:01.16\00:43:04.11
Yeah. But he's
not saying this here.
00:43:04.14\00:43:07.85
Its not eternal judgment-- Yeah.
00:43:07.88\00:43:09.25
It says the judgment that
has an eternal consequence.
00:43:09.28\00:43:12.00
Yes, yes.
00:43:12.03\00:43:13.40
Then you have eternal
salvation, Hebrews 5:9.
00:43:13.43\00:43:16.78
When you have Hebrews
5:9, eternal salvation,
00:43:16.81\00:43:19.42
it's not that God is
saving you eternally.
00:43:19.45\00:43:22.23
It saves you forever. Yes, yes.
00:43:22.26\00:43:25.39
So, it's ionious salvation.
00:43:25.42\00:43:28.61
Ionious sin, ionious judgment,
eternal in its consequences.
00:43:28.64\00:43:35.68
Felix has just
really given you a tool.
00:43:35.71\00:43:37.55
He's put a really nice
little tool in your hand.
00:43:37.58\00:43:40.07
You've given them
a nice little wrench.
00:43:40.10\00:43:41.53
Yes.
00:43:41.56\00:43:43.28
When someone talks
about eternal judgment
00:43:43.31\00:43:47.39
as taking forever to
judge or eternal fire,
00:43:47.42\00:43:52.26
then just look up the uses
of eternal in the New Testament.
00:43:52.29\00:43:58.42
And they will say to
you that rather than taking
00:43:58.45\00:44:03.65
an eternity for
these things to happen,
00:44:03.68\00:44:06.33
the results or consequences of
this happening will be eternal
00:44:06.36\00:44:11.05
and you get that understanding
00:44:11.08\00:44:12.64
by looking at the
breadth of that word eternal
00:44:12.67\00:44:16.49
and doing a word
study on eternal.
00:44:16.52\00:44:18.25
And that's why
studying the word of God
00:44:18.28\00:44:19.92
is so very, very important. Yes.
00:44:19.95\00:44:21.32
But rather than
grabbing a text--
00:44:21.35\00:44:23.08
And developing a
doctrine from one or two texts,
00:44:23.11\00:44:26.29
grab the word,
look at all of the uses
00:44:26.32\00:44:28.99
of that word and then develop
your doctrine as a consequence
00:44:29.02\00:44:31.76
of the body of work rather
than just one or two texts.
00:44:31.79\00:44:36.24
And if you look at
how something is used,
00:44:36.27\00:44:38.27
most of the time,
if you have one little
00:44:38.30\00:44:40.39
odd usage over
here, don't go with
00:44:40.42\00:44:42.22
that little odd ball over here,
go with the main body of work--
00:44:42.25\00:44:46.30
And then we'll work
with that little odd ball
00:44:46.33\00:44:48.30
because that odd ball may
not be as odd as you think.
00:44:48.33\00:44:50.42
But don't just jump
on a little odd text
00:44:50.45\00:44:52.82
and use that for your proof.
00:44:52.85\00:44:54.41
Go with the body of
work as Felix has just done.
00:44:54.44\00:44:57.04
He's given you
a good Bible study
00:44:57.07\00:44:58.53
methodology and
that will help you.
00:44:58.56\00:45:00.46
Some take a difficult
text, bring an understanding
00:45:00.49\00:45:04.64
of that text and
from that understanding--
00:45:04.67\00:45:07.08
They bend all the clear text.
00:45:07.11\00:45:09.50
Yes. Right, right, right.
00:45:09.53\00:45:10.90
We should do the other
way. Other way around, yes.
00:45:10.93\00:45:12.67
We will take the clear
text-- The clear text, yeah.
00:45:12.70\00:45:15.06
And then from
this prospective say,
00:45:15.09\00:45:16.74
well, what does it
say about this one?
00:45:16.77\00:45:18.31
About this little odd ball, yes.
00:45:18.34\00:45:19.71
And then it becomes clear. Yes.
00:45:19.74\00:45:21.18
But sometimes we take one text
and we bend everything else.
00:45:21.21\00:45:25.03
That's true, yes.
00:45:25.06\00:45:26.49
So you have this
eternal punishment
00:45:26.52\00:45:28.97
which is a punishment
which has eternal consequence.
00:45:29.00\00:45:31.40
You have eternal
judgment, eternal redemption--
00:45:31.43\00:45:34.00
Hebrews 9:2 so
eternal consequences.
00:45:34.03\00:45:36.09
That's the same
that happens in Jude 1:7.
00:45:36.12\00:45:39.00
Where Sodom and
Gomorrah were burned with--
00:45:39.03\00:45:41.75
Eternal fire. Eternal fire.
00:45:41.78\00:45:43.15
Because it's a fire
that has eternal consequence.
00:45:43.18\00:45:45.95
Consequence. Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:45:45.98\00:45:47.45
So that's what Jesus is saying.
00:45:47.48\00:45:49.31
And this is very
interesting because Jesus never
00:45:49.34\00:45:53.21
refers to hell
with the normal word
00:45:53.24\00:45:57.51
for hell which was Tartaros.
00:45:57.54\00:46:00.10
He refers to the
word for hell as Gehenna
00:46:00.13\00:46:03.47
and that is very
significant, very meaningful.
00:46:03.50\00:46:07.60
Because Gehenna,
Gehenna was a valley,
00:46:07.63\00:46:09.65
was at the south of Jerusalem
and was an important valley.
00:46:09.68\00:46:13.37
In the time of the Old Testament
00:46:13.40\00:46:14.77
that valley was a valley
where there were idols there,
00:46:14.80\00:46:18.16
babies were burnt to
these idols in some of them.
00:46:18.19\00:46:21.88
Some of these
really strange worship,
00:46:21.91\00:46:27.53
bad worship and
then that valley became
00:46:27.56\00:46:32.23
an important valley
when the Sennacherib's army,
00:46:32.26\00:46:34.75
this Assyrian army came
to lay siege of Jerusalem.
00:46:34.78\00:46:40.68
Both Isaiah and 2 Kings says
00:46:40.71\00:46:43.72
that God killed 185,000
00:46:43.75\00:46:51.21
of the Assyrian army.
00:46:51.24\00:46:54.00
What happened with
185,000? Well, they were dead
00:46:54.03\00:46:59.69
and they were in this great
valley according to the Bible.
00:46:59.72\00:47:03.70
What do you do
with this body, corpses?
00:47:03.73\00:47:08.49
They made a big
fire and burnt them.
00:47:08.52\00:47:12.30
And you know how much time
was going to burn this fire?
00:47:12.33\00:47:16.79
Like eternity because it
was 185,000 people there.
00:47:16.82\00:47:21.48
So it became a
very important place.
00:47:21.51\00:47:24.43
And that place became
the symbol of the place
00:47:24.46\00:47:28.65
where God is going
to burn his enemies.
00:47:28.68\00:47:32.45
But you see this is
talking about corpses
00:47:32.48\00:47:35.17
not about people
suffering forever.
00:47:35.20\00:47:37.64
Corpses is important
because to lay unburied
00:47:37.67\00:47:42.14
was the deepest
shame a person could have.
00:47:42.17\00:47:44.82
True.
00:47:44.85\00:47:46.24
You put them in a
cross, you're shaming them.
00:47:46.27\00:47:49.06
Daniel says that some are going
00:47:49.09\00:47:50.61
to rise for
salvation, for honor.
00:47:50.64\00:47:54.30
Others will rise for eternal
shame, not eternal shaming.
00:47:54.33\00:47:58.67
Right. But eternal shame.
00:47:58.70\00:48:00.54
This eternal shame has
to be with these corpses.
00:48:00.57\00:48:03.58
Shame is eternal for them.
00:48:03.61\00:48:05.68
So this idea of Gehenna,
of a place where the corpses
00:48:05.71\00:48:10.00
that God defeated
of the Assyrian army,
00:48:10.03\00:48:12.56
this army that God
defeated these corpses
00:48:12.59\00:48:14.79
became the symbol of
the place of God's judgment.
00:48:14.82\00:48:18.61
And it's important
symbol because it talks about
00:48:18.64\00:48:20.81
the defeat of God's
enemies. Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:48:20.84\00:48:23.70
God is not going to
punish them forever.
00:48:23.73\00:48:27.81
He's going to
destroy them forever.
00:48:27.84\00:48:29.58
Forever, yes.
00:48:29.61\00:48:30.98
And isn't it interesting
that Christ in His using of that
00:48:31.01\00:48:33.49
and discussing
that doctrinal point
00:48:33.52\00:48:35.52
always used Gehenna, always.
00:48:35.55\00:48:38.92
So he's trying to
drive home a point--
00:48:38.95\00:48:40.78
By dealing with
that because they knew
00:48:40.81\00:48:42.62
it wasn't
burning eternally. Yes.
00:48:42.65\00:48:44.02
So they understood what
we so many times trip over
00:48:44.05\00:48:47.05
that the
consequences are eternal
00:48:47.08\00:48:49.15
not to the happening
itself. And they are--
00:48:49.18\00:48:51.33
was refer to this fire
that is eternal fire because
00:48:51.36\00:48:54.64
it had eternal
consequences. Yes, yeah.
00:48:54.67\00:48:56.15
And also to the
worm that does not die,
00:48:56.18\00:48:59.43
because that is a
shame, eternal shame
00:48:59.46\00:49:02.29
that they are going to have.
00:49:02.32\00:49:04.33
When the New
Testament talks about
00:49:04.36\00:49:07.16
that some people are
cast out and so that--
00:49:07.19\00:49:10.85
what do they do
with their teeth?
00:49:10.88\00:49:12.25
What is the word? Gnashing.
00:49:12.28\00:49:13.65
Gnashing. Gnashing, yes.
00:49:13.68\00:49:15.05
We think that
they gnash their teeth
00:49:15.08\00:49:16.97
because they are in
pain but that is not truth.
00:49:17.00\00:49:20.11
In the Old Testament
and the New Testament,
00:49:20.14\00:49:23.46
gnashing the teeth
has to do with envy.
00:49:23.49\00:49:27.42
That's why when
Stephen was about to be killed,
00:49:27.45\00:49:31.06
they gnashed
their teeth against him.
00:49:31.09\00:49:34.59
So gnashing the
teeth, it's an image in Job,
00:49:34.62\00:49:38.33
in Proverbs and other
places, not of pain but of envy.
00:49:38.36\00:49:43.46
So they are going to be
cast out because they are--
00:49:43.49\00:49:48.25
and they are going
to gnash their teeth
00:49:48.28\00:49:49.78
because they are envy
of those who are inside.
00:49:49.81\00:49:51.72
Who are inside, yes.
00:49:51.75\00:49:53.12
So it doesn't have to do
with pain and suffering perhaps.
00:49:53.15\00:50:00.30
So when you say,
weeping and wailing
00:50:00.33\00:50:01.79
and envious of
those who were inside,
00:50:01.82\00:50:04.76
gives it a whole new--
I don't want to say spin
00:50:04.79\00:50:07.13
because that's
such a political word.
00:50:07.16\00:50:08.53
But it puts a whole new
flavor on this gnashing of teeth
00:50:08.56\00:50:11.76
because it's not
of pain and fire. No.
00:50:11.79\00:50:13.42
It's because you wish
you had what they have.
00:50:13.45\00:50:15.02
Yes. Yes.
00:50:15.05\00:50:16.42
And that's why
you're weeping and wailing
00:50:16.45\00:50:17.82
because you don't have, and
you realized what you've lost.
00:50:17.85\00:50:19.35
Yes. Now
00:50:19.38\00:50:20.75
I would like to think, I
would like to talk also about
00:50:20.78\00:50:24.00
the wrath of God. Yes.
00:50:24.03\00:50:25.91
What is a wrathful God?
00:50:25.94\00:50:28.06
If you go to Romans 1,
that is an important passage
00:50:28.09\00:50:33.14
to understand the wrath of God.
00:50:33.17\00:50:35.11
Romans 1:18, and following.
00:50:39.42\00:50:42.34
You'll find there,
the following says,
00:50:42.37\00:50:44.79
"For the wrath of God
is revealed from heaven
00:50:44.82\00:50:47.34
against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men
00:50:47.37\00:50:51.08
who suppress the
truth in unrighteousness."
00:50:51.11\00:50:53.97
Now how is the
wrath of God revealed?
00:50:54.00\00:50:57.53
The wrath of God is
revealed-- verse 26,
00:50:57.56\00:51:04.07
"Therefore, God gave
them-- for this reason
00:51:04.10\00:51:08.93
God gave them up
to vile passions."
00:51:08.96\00:51:14.46
So the wrath of
God is God giving
00:51:14.49\00:51:17.37
up people to their own desires.
00:51:17.40\00:51:20.88
Verse 28, "And even as
they did not like to retain
00:51:20.91\00:51:23.76
God in their knowledge, God gave
them over to a debased mind."
00:51:23.79\00:51:29.60
You have this idea of
God handing over people
00:51:29.63\00:51:33.70
to their own wishes and desires,
00:51:33.73\00:51:37.49
is the revelation, the
expression of God's wrath.
00:51:37.52\00:51:44.63
This is important
because this is an act of God.
00:51:44.66\00:51:48.05
Wrath-- Is an act of God.
00:51:48.08\00:51:49.75
But this act is handing a
person over to his own desires.
00:51:49.78\00:51:54.91
You know, that is--in fact,
00:51:54.94\00:51:56.32
that is the worst thing
that can happen to a person.
00:51:56.35\00:51:59.67
God gives us laws, truths,
knowledge so that we may have
00:51:59.70\00:52:05.66
the best kind of
life we can have.
00:52:05.69\00:52:08.80
The best thing that can happen
to us is that we obey God.
00:52:08.83\00:52:12.52
If we obey God,
we're going to be happy,
00:52:12.55\00:52:14.23
we're going to be good,
we're going to be successful,
00:52:14.26\00:52:16.69
we're going to be
having good families.
00:52:16.72\00:52:20.24
But once you reject God
and you continue rejecting God
00:52:20.27\00:52:23.49
and you say
finally to God, "you know,
00:52:23.52\00:52:25.49
I don't want to have anything
to do with you, leave me alone."
00:52:25.52\00:52:30.08
Then God is going
to make an act. Yes.
00:52:30.11\00:52:32.03
And God is going
to leave you alone.
00:52:32.06\00:52:34.44
Which would be the worst thing
that can ever happen to you.
00:52:34.47\00:52:36.81
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:52:36.84\00:52:38.43
Because when you
are driven out of God,
00:52:38.46\00:52:43.15
you know God is love,
He's the only source of love.
00:52:43.18\00:52:47.78
When you are out of
Him, you are out of love,
00:52:47.81\00:52:51.93
what good life can come
out of the absence of love?
00:52:51.96\00:52:56.67
Yes, yes, yes,
yes. Nothing good.
00:52:56.70\00:52:58.18
So that is what happens.
00:52:58.21\00:52:59.58
If you go to the Old Testament,
00:52:59.61\00:53:01.00
you'll find the ways
which God defeated the enemies.
00:53:01.03\00:53:04.59
You're going to find
that most of the time
00:53:04.62\00:53:07.31
they
over-reached, they over-reach.
00:53:07.34\00:53:10.93
And then God-- what does God do?
00:53:10.96\00:53:13.65
They turn enemies
upon enemies. Yes.
00:53:13.68\00:53:16.33
They kill
themselves. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:53:16.36\00:53:18.58
That's what happens.
00:53:18.61\00:53:19.98
In Revelation, Babylon is
the system that opposes God.
00:53:20.01\00:53:26.13
Yes. True.
00:53:26.16\00:53:27.53
And how is the system
and how is Babylon destroyed?
00:53:27.56\00:53:32.45
Its lovers, the
people who supported it--
00:53:32.48\00:53:35.45
Turned against
Babylon and destroyed Babylon.
00:53:35.48\00:53:38.40
Yeah, the sword drives out--
00:53:38.43\00:53:40.06
God punishes Babylon by handing
Babylon over to its enemies.
00:53:40.09\00:53:47.33
Enemies, yes.
00:53:47.36\00:53:48.73
So it's not God who destroys,
it is the enemies who destroy.
00:53:48.76\00:53:52.31
So in the end God's wrath
00:53:52.34\00:53:55.56
is just being willing
00:53:55.59\00:54:02.03
to let us live our own
life, to our own freedom.
00:54:02.06\00:54:09.88
You see, there's a
passage I like a lot.
00:54:09.91\00:54:13.06
Romans 9:22. Romans 9:22,
00:54:13.09\00:54:19.72
you see, "what if God
wanting to show his wrath,
00:54:19.75\00:54:26.22
and to make his power known."
00:54:26.25\00:54:28.29
How do you show your
wrath and your power known?
00:54:28.32\00:54:31.02
You say, by--
with a big punishment.
00:54:31.05\00:54:33.77
You see, what God says here,
00:54:33.80\00:54:35.62
"What if God
wanting to show his wrath,
00:54:35.65\00:54:38.40
and making his power known,
endured with much longsuffering
00:54:38.43\00:54:46.01
the vessels of wrath
prepared for destruction."
00:54:46.04\00:54:48.47
He shows his
wrath by enduring them,
00:54:48.50\00:54:52.20
giving them time. Yes, yes, yes.
00:54:52.23\00:54:55.44
So that is a way that God shows
His wrath, giving you time.
00:54:55.47\00:55:01.34
But if you don't
take this time to repent,
00:55:01.37\00:55:08.93
then God is going to
say, "well, okay, it's okay."
00:55:08.96\00:55:11.62
Then you're
going to be destroyed.
00:55:11.65\00:55:13.02
What happens when
God depart from you?
00:55:13.05\00:55:14.96
There's no life. Yeah, yeah.
00:55:14.99\00:55:16.85
So that is what happened.
00:55:16.88\00:55:18.25
Finally, hell is
complete absence from God.
00:55:18.28\00:55:22.74
Yes. Yeah.
00:55:22.77\00:55:24.14
Felix, that's a
powerful and compelling nuance.
00:55:24.17\00:55:26.95
The understanding that hell,
00:55:26.98\00:55:29.83
the mental
suffering is absence of God.
00:55:29.86\00:55:32.92
What could have
been? I'm gnashing because
00:55:32.95\00:55:35.79
I could've been in there,
I could've been one with God,
00:55:35.82\00:55:37.86
but I rejected Him. Yes.
00:55:37.89\00:55:39.80
I said by my
life, I don't want you,
00:55:39.83\00:55:41.74
so now God is
giving me what I asked for.
00:55:41.77\00:55:44.76
And the realization
that I'll never be with God,
00:55:44.79\00:55:46.46
I'm not gonna be with
Him, I'm not gonna be saved.
00:55:46.49\00:55:48.47
That is true hell
because you're away from life.
00:55:48.50\00:55:50.68
Yes. Correct.
00:55:50.71\00:55:52.12
And the fire that
destroys at the end, the wicked,
00:55:52.15\00:55:54.92
was originally destined to
cleanse the earth from sin.
00:55:54.95\00:55:59.25
But those who cling
to sin are destroyed
00:55:59.28\00:56:03.70
with the sin they loved.
00:56:03.73\00:56:05.10
Precisely, have
to be cleansed. Yes.
00:56:05.13\00:56:06.50
So the cleansing is a
complete removal of what is--
00:56:06.53\00:56:09.35
In preparation
for what will be--
00:56:09.38\00:56:11.04
Not an eternal burning. Yes.
00:56:11.07\00:56:12.44
Powerful, powerful
statement and understanding.
00:56:12.47\00:56:14.72
This has been for me an
interesting and exciting study.
00:56:14.75\00:56:18.40
I trust it has
been for you also.
00:56:18.43\00:56:20.79
If you want to
get more information,
00:56:20.82\00:56:24.24
then do read and
study the word of God
00:56:24.27\00:56:27.64
and again stick with the word,
don't just pull your doctrine
00:56:27.67\00:56:30.68
from one sentence or
one little statement,
00:56:30.71\00:56:32.69
but take the
breadth of statements
00:56:32.72\00:56:34.64
and then develop your
theology or your mindset.
00:56:34.67\00:56:38.27
Because as we said,
these two particular doctrines
00:56:38.30\00:56:40.78
have been tossed
around quite a little bit
00:56:40.81\00:56:43.36
and misunderstood a great deal.
00:56:43.39\00:56:45.73
But we hope tonight that
we've shed some light on them,
00:56:45.76\00:56:47.86
that you've gotten
some encouragement,
00:56:47.89\00:56:49.26
some inspiration
as well as information
00:56:49.29\00:56:52.60
rather on these two subjects.
00:56:52.63\00:56:54.89
May I encourage you
to keep on studying.
00:56:54.92\00:56:56.42
While our time is
fast slipped into eternity,
00:56:56.45\00:56:58.58
allow me now, in closing to
wish you both grace and peace
00:56:58.61\00:57:01.55
through our Lord
and Savior Jesus Christ.
00:57:01.58\00:57:02.95
We'll see you again
soon, good night and God bless.
00:57:02.98\00:57:05.65