Participants: C. A. Murray (Host), Felix Cortez
Series Code: TLA
Program Code: TLA013501
|
01:00 Hello, and welcome to 3ABN live. My name is C.A. Murray.
01:03 And allow me once again to thank you for sharing 01:07 just a little of your day with us. 01:09 We thank you, always for your prayers, 01:11 your support of this ministry, and for the time 01:14 that we get to spend together from time to time. 01:16 We are early in the year 01:18 and it's a good time to be alive, 01:21 a good time to serve the Lord as always. 01:23 And we've got a really, really interesting program today. 01:28 We get 2 hours to sit and we can relax a little bit 01:30 and talk a little bit more at length on a subject 01:32 that there is no small amount of confusion and, 01:37 dare I say, disinformation about even within the religious ranks. 01:41 We're gonna talk about death and hell. 01:43 Now I know, you got your hand and saying, 01:45 "Oh, 2 hours of death and hell." 01:46 Well, when you know the truth about death and hell 01:50 it's not a negative subject at all. 01:52 It's not a subject to dread or to fear 01:54 because God has made provision. 01:56 And when you understand the truth 01:58 about what God is doing, what happens at death, 02:01 what happens indeed through out all of eternity, 02:04 they are, one, confronting subjects. 02:06 They are, one, subject that need not caused 02:09 dread or fear in your life. 02:11 And, really, you see again that we serve of a loving God, 02:15 a caring God, a God who is fair and just. 02:19 And we're gonna move through that this evening 02:21 as I talk with my guest, 02:23 pastor, doctor, Professor Felix Cortez. 02:26 Felix, it's good to have you here. 02:28 Thank you. My pleasure. 02:29 Yeah, this is a nice guy. 02:30 You know, you meet people from time to time 02:32 and you can tell right off that they love the Lord 02:33 and that they are nice guys. 02:35 So we're gonna have a good time together 02:36 because I like this guy. 02:37 Yes. And he's got lot to say. 02:39 I was reading his syllabus last night. 02:40 This is an impressive-- A little too much I guess? 02:44 This is an impressive work and I was telling 02:47 I'm gonna be a plane in just a few days. 02:50 And so I'm gonna reread this with a pen in hand 02:53 because there are many things that you can take notes on. 02:55 So that's the subject, death and hell. 02:58 We're gonna try to demystify, 03:00 demythologize some of these things for which there is-- 03:03 over which there is this cloud. 03:05 You know, in the last few years-- 03:10 trying to think of the name of the series 03:11 and Robert told me in a control room just a little 03:13 while ago but the vampire craze has come up 03:16 and there is so much misinformation out 03:20 about what happens to you at death. 03:21 And of course we go back to Genesis, 03:24 that statement by Satan which has been repopulated 03:28 so many, many times, "Thou shall not surely die" 03:30 and the whole list of theology is that have come from statement 03:34 that when you die you don't really die 03:36 and all the misinformation that comes-- 03:37 even from the pulpits of the land about that. 03:39 So you got 2 hours of talking about some of these things. 03:41 It's gonna be really, really good show. 03:44 I want you to call your friends. 03:45 As Danny says, sometimes call your enemies also 03:47 because they need to hear this. 03:48 They need hear the truth about this 03:50 and we've got someone who has spent 03:52 a good amount of time studying. 03:53 And we're gonna talk about Felix, his life, 03:55 how he got to where he is. 03:57 And then we're gonna dive 03:58 into this very, very important subject. 04:00 So, dare I say you may wanna fire up your computer, 04:02 your ipad, grab pencil and paper, 04:04 'cause you're gonna need to take notes. 04:05 This is death and hell school, death and hell 101. Yes. 04:11 Basic course to try to understand some of the things 04:13 which are very, very important to our life 04:15 because in our belief, Felix, as to what happens at death, 04:20 we get a picture that is accurate of a loving God 04:23 or as you well know a picture of a God 04:25 who seems very, very vengeful and very evil. 04:28 No, I think Bible is very clear that God is love. 04:32 And that is true also in his teaching 04:34 and his actions about hell. 04:37 In the end I think we're going to have 04:38 a very picture of who God is. 04:40 Yes. And why loves us. 04:42 Even He loves his enemies. 04:43 He died for them. Yes. 04:45 So He's going to be just but also loving to them. 04:48 Even to the end. Even in the final event-- 04:53 Yes. Of this-- the history of this world. 04:56 Yes, yes, indeed. 04:58 I think, you know, we will use the name 05:02 Ellen White a lot this evening, I suspect. 05:03 Yes, probably, yes. 05:05 A great Christian writer from the 19th century. 05:07 One of the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist church. 05:09 One of the statements that she made, 05:12 and I'm not sure of the book right now, 05:14 but the idea of a vengeful God 05:16 who would burn people throughout eternity 05:18 has turned off more people to Christianity 05:21 than perhaps any other single doctrine. 05:23 So we're gonna kind of pull the cover off of that tonight 05:25 and look at God as He really is 05:27 and not this defacing of the image of God. Yes. 05:30 That an eternally burning hell 05:31 would kind of put in the minds of so many. 05:33 Yes. So I am very, very excited to have you here. 05:35 It's always my pleasure as well. Good looking guy. 05:37 That lilting accent you hear is from Mexico 05:40 and he teaches in Mexico even now. 05:42 We'll talk about that in just a little bit. 05:44 But I think now we wanna go to our song. 05:46 One of the great friends of this ministry, 05:48 one of the gifted individuals, 05:50 who is a humble Christian, just a wonderful person-- 05:54 we really like Tim Parton around here. 05:56 And he's just a nice guy and he loves the Lord. 06:00 He's gonna be playing "Hallelujah, What a Savior." 08:16 Tim Parton has happy fingers. 08:18 He is a great pianist and as we said, a great person. 08:21 On my CD project he did the piano work on Pastor Lomacang's 08:26 CD project on Danny's. 08:27 Really, just about anybody that records here at 3ABN, 08:31 that piano work you hear will be Tim Parton. 08:33 We love him and he's a great person to work with. 08:35 Well, my guest is Felix Cortez. And that F.E.L.I.X. 08:39 we would say it in English Felix 08:40 but that 'E' in Spanish is pronounced like an 'A', 08:42 I happened to know that. Yes. 08:44 So it's Felix Cortez. 08:45 He is a professor of religion-- no, professor-- 08:48 let me get it right, professor of theology. 08:50 New Testament. New Testament. 08:52 At Montemorelos University. 08:55 Yes, a long name and difficult to pronounce. But you did well. 08:59 I have not been to that school but I've met 09:01 many, many graduates of that fine institution. 09:04 Okay. Several doctors have come out of that-- 09:08 well, many doctors have come out of that institution 09:10 but I know several that have come through there. 09:12 And you do good work at Montemorelos. 09:15 Now I need to get some history on you, man. 09:16 Sorry. Need to get a little history on you. 09:18 Oh, yes. You were obviously born in Mexico. 09:20 Yes, I was born there. 09:22 I was born-- I come from a pastoral family. 09:25 My father is a pastor. So I heard the gospel from him. 09:31 Usually pastor's kids sometimes are not 09:32 the best kids in a church. 09:35 But that was my-- those were my brothers. 09:38 Yeah, okay. No, I had my problems too. 09:41 So, yes. So I had a-- 09:44 I think I had a wonderful time being a pastor kid. 09:48 And I heard the gospel in his preaching's 09:51 and I was converted there. 09:57 And I think since I was 6 years old, probably, 10:01 I wanted to become a pastor. 10:03 I never changed my mind. 10:05 So when I was 20 years old, 10:08 I finished theology for some reason 10:10 I finished earlier than normal. There you got. 10:13 Now do you have your brothers and sisters? 10:14 Yes, I have two brothers. 10:16 One older brother and a younger brother. 10:17 You're in the middle. Yes. 10:18 You know what they say 10:20 about that middle child can be a little-- 10:22 Yes, you know they are not pastors 10:25 but they do pastoral work in the church. 10:28 Both of them are very good leaders 10:30 and they work very good with young people, 10:34 and very active in the churches. 10:37 Yes. So I'm very glad with what they do. 10:41 Yeah, let me ask you something, Felix, 10:43 because growing up in an Adventist home 10:45 does not automatically make you an Adventist, 10:48 nor does it guarantee that you have a relationship with Jesus. 10:51 When did that happen for you? 10:54 I know, you've said at age 6, 10:55 you were thinking about being a pastor 10:57 but when did it dawn on you that you needed 10:59 and have a one-on-one relationship with Jesus Christ? 11:01 You know, that is very interesting-- 11:03 many people have very a pointing time, a moment of-- 11:10 you know, illumination or something like that. 11:12 Yes. I didn't have that-- 11:14 No. 11:17 I don't remember exact point in time when I said, 11:20 you know, I'm a new person. 11:23 It was a little-by-little moment. And-- 11:27 but yes there were many times 11:29 when I felt that I needed God's forgiveness 11:32 and I felt that forgiveness. 11:35 So that was a conversion that was deepening. Yes. 11:39 In different moments in my time--in my life. 11:42 So--but I cannot remember one moment 11:45 which I say you know this was the conversion. 11:48 That bit thing, yes, yes. 11:50 So I'm a little different from anybody, yes. 11:53 During your teenage years, 11:55 did you have what we sometimes call wilderness years? 11:58 You know, when you kind of stray from the Lord 12:00 or did you kind of stay with the Lord 12:01 throughout your years? 12:02 Well, I didn't have that wilderness years 12:05 in my teenage years. 12:08 I did have them later on, yes. 12:11 The late wilderness experience. 12:13 I wasn't really a pastor. 12:14 I was already studying for my PhD when I that wilderness. 12:19 You know, I had a big crisis in my family. 12:23 I had a son who had cancer. 12:26 So he was born when he was 2 months and half 12:34 he was diagnosed with a big tumor. 12:36 So he struggled with cancer for four and a half months 12:42 and then he died. 12:44 So it was a very difficult experience. 12:47 And I think it was a challenging experience. 12:50 But in the end, even though 12:53 that was a wilderness-- that was a difficult time. 12:56 Yes. In the end I think I was strengthened 13:00 and I think that I felt God closer. 13:04 And I strengthened my relationship with him. 13:08 Praise God. I was converted again. 13:11 So I guess I had my wilderness. 13:13 A little of the wilderness, yeah. 13:15 That was a little later on, yeah. 13:16 Well, you know those kinds of experience, 13:18 Felix, they will drive you to Jesus. 13:21 Yeah. Or many times drive people away. 13:23 They will have you surrender to him 13:24 or have you shake your fist at him. 13:25 Yes. They don't leave you neutral. 13:27 Yes. But to a young child, you know, he's struggling. 13:30 Yes. He doesn't know what's going on. 13:31 He's just a little baby dealing with an adult sized problem. 13:35 Yes. And you as an adult see that. 13:38 That's either got to break your heart 13:40 and send you to Christ or turn you way. 13:43 So praise God it did the opposite, yeah. 13:44 Yes, and the problem with me 13:46 is that I was studying theology deep-level at that moment. 13:50 And then at that moment you're studying a lot of books 13:53 that don't think as you do. 13:56 Yes, yeah. Regarding God, so your faith is tempt the lot. 14:00 So it came in a difficult moment. 14:02 So it was also a theological challenge for me. Yes, yes. 14:07 Not only a relational challenge 14:10 between me and God, also theological one. 14:12 And but I think in the end it was a good experience. 14:17 Praise God, praise God. How did you meet your wife? 14:19 Well, I met her at the Montemorelos University. 14:22 It was very interesting because she didn't-- 14:24 she was not studying there. 14:26 I had finished school. 14:28 I was living, I was going to become a pastor. 14:30 There was 5 days before I went to my district 14:34 to become a pastor and I met her. 14:37 And I said, "Well, this is the women I want in my life." 14:41 So you know right away? Yes, right away. 14:47 I think it was love at first sight. 14:50 Of course, we went through a relationship through 2 years. 14:55 We were not together in the same university. 14:56 We were 12 hours apart. 14:58 So we were driving. Yes. 15:01 And calling and I pay a large bill 15:04 when I was unmarried. 15:07 That's why I decided to marry, 15:08 not to be pay more phone bills. 15:10 So 2 years in a relationship and then we married. 15:16 But it has been a wonderful relationship. 15:18 Praise God. And how many years married? 15:20 21 years married. 15:22 See, I've got to push your age up a little bit 15:24 'cause you look pretty young. 15:26 If you figure 20, I got to add 20 to 20 and, 15:29 you know, I got to start going up. 15:30 But God has blessed you, man. 15:32 Yeah, praise that. And how many children? 15:34 I have 2 children. Yes. 15:36 A boy, 14 year old and a 12 year old. 15:41 Well, I'm forgetting probably 15 years. 15:44 Yeah, but he's a wonderful guy. Okay. 15:47 He loves music he plays piano 15:49 and violin and writes music, too. 15:53 And my daughter plays the piano 15:55 and cello and she is an artist. 15:57 She draws. So I'm blessed with very good children. 16:01 Yes. Are they active in the church? 16:03 They are active in the church. 16:04 Praise God, praise God, yeah. 16:06 So you pastored first before coming to university. 16:09 Where did you pastor? I pastored in Mexico City. 16:12 I pastored in a place in Mexico City 16:16 which is a poor zone which is-- but the wonderful churches. 16:23 Yes. I pastored there for 4 years 16:25 and then moved to a different district nearby. 16:28 So I was pastor for several years. 16:32 And then I did ministry as youth director. 16:36 Okay. For 7 years, Mexico City. 16:38 Very, very good. Let me ask you this question, Felix, 16:41 because we all come out of school-- 16:43 I did, came out of college with very set ideas 16:48 on what pastoring was going to be like. 16:51 The idea that you left school with and the reality 16:54 once you got into pastoring was there a great difference? 16:57 Once you really got into-- 16:59 what we say the rubber meets the road, 17:00 when you got your feet on the ground was that the same? 17:03 Different? How was that challenge for you? 17:04 It was different. Yes. 17:06 There are many things that they don't teach you at school. 17:08 You got that right. Yes. 17:09 And you cannot teach them until you find them. Yeah, right. 17:15 But I had the advantage of being a pastor's kid. 17:18 I had been in church a lot. Yeah. 17:20 So that helped me a lot. 17:23 But there were many experiences I faced 17:27 I was not prepared to face. 17:30 But God is gracious. God is good. 17:32 And He helped me in facing these situations. Yeah. 17:36 Do you know, I had the privilege 17:38 of pastoring a wonderful church, 17:41 the first church I pastored was really an incredible church. 17:46 Do you know, I was 20 years old. 17:50 I looked like 18 year old. 17:54 So they were just afraid of what was going to happen. 17:59 This is little boy coming into my church, yes? 18:01 Yes. You know what they did? 18:04 You know, one of the elders of church-- 18:06 just got the all the church knelt to together 18:09 and brought me into the center and said, 18:10 "we're going to pray for you." 18:12 And you know, that was a special moment. 18:14 Yeah. I haven't forgotten that. 18:16 Yes. It was really, really great moment. 18:19 You know, churches can be a real blessing for the pastor. 18:21 Oh, yes. And this first church was a real blessing to me. 18:27 They taught me a lot of things. Oh, yes. 18:29 If you--you know, sometimes you think 18:31 I'm going to teach them but they're really teaching you. 18:34 My first--I think I pastored-- one, two, three, four, five-- 18:36 six churches and they didn't let me stay long, 18:39 they moved me fast. 18:40 I didn't make 3 years at my first 3 churches 18:42 and then the last one, the membership was 2000, 18:45 I stayed there 8 years. 18:47 But they moved me along pretty quick. 18:48 So I didn't have time to make any enemies 18:50 'cause they kept moving me on. 18:51 But each church was a good church 18:53 and each church taught me something. 18:54 Yes. And if you go in with the right effort you can learn. 18:56 So you pastored-- when did the idea occur to you 18:59 that maybe you wanted to move into teaching? 19:02 Into teaching? Well, I always wanted to do something teaching, 19:09 to study more and to teach. 19:14 But I was not sure if I wanted to teach 19:16 or to continue in youth ministries. 19:21 But when I was-- as a youth director 19:27 I did a lot of seminars, 19:29 I did a lot of instruction to young people. 19:33 And I found that I like that. 19:36 And I said, well, I should study more, 19:41 and I should go into teaching ministries. 19:43 So, I had the opportunity to do that. Praise God. 19:46 Now you're undergraduate degree, was that from Montemorelos? 19:49 Yes, my undergraduate was from Montemorelos. 19:52 Then I did masters in literary theory 19:54 in hermeneutics 19:56 and in a non-Adventist University, Mexico city. 19:59 And then I when to Andrews University to do 20:01 my PhD in New Testament, 20:04 which is biblically territory so. 20:06 That has been my journey. 20:08 That has been my journey. Yes. 20:10 So obviously, answer my next question, 20:13 you learned you're English at Andrews 20:14 while you were in the States? Well, yes, I learned before. 20:17 I could read it, I translate it, I could speak it. 20:21 But my son would say that I cannot speak it yet. 20:24 So he says I speak the worse English 20:27 that he has heard but, well, I think he's right. 20:30 But, I learned to speak it there. That's right. 20:34 Praise God. I think you speak well. 20:35 You're English is far superior to my Spanish. 20:37 I tell you. I can get by. 20:41 But I love the language. 20:42 We want to go into, you know, our subject for the night. 20:47 Talk about death and hell and the absolute confusion 20:53 that has surrounded these subjects 20:55 for so many years and in so many places. To try to-- 20:58 as I said in the beginning of the show, 21:00 to sort of demythologize or demystify 21:03 these subjects which have really been-- 21:05 you know, if you go to a 100 denominations 21:07 you may get 100 different ideas 21:09 on what happens when you die. 21:10 Yes. Or the kind of God that we serve. 21:13 So let's walk through that. 21:15 Let's sort open up the word and take off. 21:19 Yes. Yes. 21:20 Do you know the death and hell 21:24 is a very important topic today. 21:29 April, last year, magazine had this main story, 21:33 the core topic, it was on hell. 21:37 It was triggered by a book published by Rob Bells 21:40 which is very famous pastor. 21:42 He has produced these Nooma serious videos 21:45 which are very interesting to see. 21:46 And I like to see them. 21:49 And he produced the book, "Love Wins." 21:52 And this book "Love Wins," 21:54 challenges the traditional evangelical views about hell. 22:00 So this created a lot of debate about what hell is? 22:07 And then this last April, there was another covering 22:12 in the Time Magazine about heaven. 22:14 So we have hell and heaven which are very interesting. 22:18 And then there is another book. 22:20 Yeah, and you can see in the screen. 22:23 "Heavens is for real" by Todd Burpo. Yes. 22:25 This is the story of a kid that is a near death experience 22:29 and he goes to heaven 22:30 and he meets a lot of people there. Yes. 22:32 And he has a very good time there 22:34 and then he comes back and he writes this book. 22:37 And this book has been in the bestseller list for-- 22:40 it was for 70 plus weeks. 22:43 Yes, yes. First place. 22:45 So it was a very important book. 22:46 And so what happens after death is a topic 22:52 that interests a lot of people. 22:55 What happens when you die? 22:56 Are you going go through place of pleasure 23:03 or to a place of punishment? 23:05 And then the problem is, can a God 23:08 who is love have people being punished forever? 23:12 That has been the question. 23:15 Yes, yes. So that was-- 23:17 that is what has happened. 23:19 You know in 2000-- sorry 1999 or 1998 23:23 evangelicals took this topic 23:27 because they understood that it was difficult 23:33 to have this idea that a loving God 23:37 would have people burning forever. Surely. 23:40 So they called this committee and studied the topic 23:44 because there were several evangelical 23:47 important theologians who challenged this idea. 23:51 One of them was John Stott. 23:53 John Stott said, you know, 23:56 God is not going to punish wicked people forever. 24:00 They're going to be annihilated. 24:03 And then came Clark Pinnock. 24:05 And Clark Pinnock agreed with John Stott 24:07 and then John Cleek also challenged his views. 24:10 So that were these views in evangelical circles. Yes. 24:15 So they gathered together and they studied the topic 24:19 and they published a book about it. 24:21 And what they did in the end was to say, 24:23 "well, these are the arguments in favor of annihilation. 24:28 God is not going to punish people forever. 24:30 And this is the verses, the keys, 24:35 ideas for God is going to burn people forever." 24:39 So they put both views and then you decide. 24:42 So they tried at least to be fair and balanced 24:44 and unbiased in their presentation. 24:46 Yeah. That's good. 24:47 That is a good book, that one. It lays both views forever-- 24:52 And the name of the book is again? 24:53 The name of the book is-- I have it here. 24:57 It is-- let me find it here. 25:01 It is a report, it is "The Nature of Hell." 25:08 The Nature of Hell. The Nature of Hell. 25:10 And it is published by 25:11 the Evangelical Alliances Commission on Unity 25:15 and Truth among Evangelicals. 25:18 That title is "The Nature of Hell." 25:20 The Nature of Hell, okay. 25:22 So some people, you know, other than evangelists, 25:24 are looking at what has been the Christians stance 25:28 in many denominations for many, many years 25:30 and saying there're some cracks in that armor, 25:32 there are some holes in that discussion. 25:34 And that's good, that's a good thing. Yes, it is. 25:37 There has been also another book 25:38 by William Fudge, F.U.D.G.E. 25:42 "A Fire that Consumes." That book is a wonderful book. 25:48 It is probably the most clear biblical exposition 25:56 on what happens to the wicked when they die. 26:00 And he takes basically the annihilation view. 26:04 That wicked will not suffer forever 26:07 but they will be destroyed forever. 26:11 So that's what he says. 26:12 But that book is really an impressive book. 26:17 Takes all the biblical passages, the difficult ones. 26:24 Yes. The easy ones. All of them. 26:26 And studies them point by point 26:29 and it's his wonderful book. 26:31 And he's not an Adventist 26:33 but he has done a wonderful job there. Praise the Lord. 26:37 You know, you would think that there are so many people 26:38 who have this idea-- across the border, 26:42 everybody thinks that you're burnt forever. 26:44 But even in evangelical centers, it seems, 26:47 that there are variations in this idea. 26:50 Everybody doesn't buy the same thing, you know? 26:52 Yes. Yeah. 26:54 Some people in evangelical circles will say, 26:57 "well, yes, there is an eternal hell." 27:00 Others will say, "no, everybody is going to be saved." 27:03 That is a universal view. Yes, yes, yes. 27:07 God is so good and he's a so powerful. 27:09 Yes. That is important thing. 27:11 God is so powerful that His love is so amazing 27:14 that when a person gets to know God's love 27:18 then he won't have any other power to resist him. 27:25 Yes. So he's going to be converted. 27:27 And he's going to love God. 27:30 And so everybody is going to be saved. Yes, yes. 27:34 Because God is so powerful and God's love is so amazing. 27:37 So that is the universalist's view. Yes. 27:42 Others will say no God everybody is free and if we are free. 27:47 Some can say no, even through your love. Yes. 27:51 Even though you're amazing I don't want to trust in you. 27:56 And so they will take the same position that the Satan takes. 28:01 Yes. And they will say no 28:04 we don't want and so in this evangelicals think 28:07 that they'll be annihilated. 28:10 And I think that the traditional view 28:15 of the evangelical position is that, 28:17 well, the wicked will be burnt forever. Yes. 28:20 And the rationale behind this 28:23 is that rejecting God who is love, 28:26 who is so much-- He's so great a sin 28:32 that needs to have an eternal punishment? 28:36 Yes. Because this is a big, big sin. 28:40 So that is the rationale. Rationale, yeah. 28:42 I'm glad, Felix, that Adventist are not the only ones 28:45 with their ore on this side of the boat. Yes. 28:48 That they are other people who are paddling with us. 28:49 Yes. Understanding of the-- 28:52 really it's an understanding of the character of God. It is. 28:56 You know, over and above 28:58 whether the doctrine is right or wrong, 29:00 is that if you accept that God burns people forever, 29:02 you're really painting a picture of an ugly God. 29:04 Yes. A kind of mean God? 29:06 Yes. Yeah. And most-- 29:08 many atheists reject a view of God 29:13 and belief in God because of hell. 29:16 And many people don't want to obey a God 29:22 who is vindictive. Yes. 29:25 And then it is difficult to conceive an idea 29:28 that people is going to be happy forever 29:31 when they know some friend, 29:35 some loved one who didn't accept 29:37 Jesus is going to burn forever. 29:39 Burning forever. Does not make any sense. 29:40 So that is a difficult thought, a difficult thing to believe. 29:48 Yes, yes. So that's what has caused this struggle. 29:54 This debate. Yeah. 29:55 So when we go back to the Old Testament 29:57 and almost compare and contrast 29:59 what the Hebrews believed and the Old Testament Pagans 30:02 believed is it was there any-- of course the Pagans' belief 30:06 run the gamut of their book-- 30:08 was there any kind of correlation between 30:09 what Paganism kind of taught and what the Hebrews taught 30:12 or are they just really diametrically 30:13 opposite of each other? 30:15 Well, Hebrews have a very unique view, 30:18 a very unique world view. 30:20 Yes. But it is true, 30:24 the Pagans have a lot of different views. 30:29 In fact, some of the time those views were contradictory. 30:34 Because when the new viewer-- 30:38 a new view came old views will not die. 30:41 So they were even some contradictory views 30:44 in the same time in the same place. 30:46 But Pagans have very different views. Yeah. 30:50 Many of the pagans believe that death was the end of it. 30:55 Death was not a transition to a different kind of life. 31:00 A person dies and that was it. 31:03 There was nothing to look forward to. All right. 31:08 Probably the most ancient view among Egyptians was that. 31:11 They believed that only the Pharaoh 31:13 had the possibility to have an afterlife 31:17 because he was God himself. 31:19 Yes. So only he had the opportunity-- 31:22 Now that little nuance I did not know. Really? 31:23 I thought that all Egyptians 31:26 thought that there was a afterlife, 31:28 but only for a Pharaoh. 31:29 He the only one got that-- those cookies, as it were. 31:31 Yes, that was at the beginning. 31:34 But then later on they evolved. 31:36 I see. Okay. Yes. 31:37 And then these view that there could be an afterlife 31:42 also for other people, strong people, powerful people. 31:45 Yes, yes, yes. 31:46 And then it widened to include all the people. 31:51 So, it's, you know, Egypt has a very long history. 31:54 Yes, yes, yes. 31:56 So they have evolved with the years. I see. 31:58 So they have a view of eternal judgment. 32:02 They thought that when you came to judgment 32:05 your heart was going to be weighed against a feather. 32:10 And if your heart was heavy--Yes. 32:13 And was heavier than the feather 32:16 then you were going to be condemned. 32:18 And then there was mud, 32:19 there a beast with a crocodile head 32:21 that it was going to be-- to destroy you. 32:27 So they thought about final judgment as well. 32:34 So there were many views. Yes. 32:35 Other views were different. 32:37 Other views, for example, Babylon and some Greek, 32:42 some Greek views thought that, yes, 32:44 death was a transition to a different kind of life. 32:48 But it was not a full life but a kind of half life 32:52 in which people where like just there lying 33:00 without anything to do, no real life. 33:05 Homer in the Illiad talks about this. Yes. 33:08 And but this afterlife is not real full life. 33:14 It's a kind of half life. It's not-- 33:18 they don't have activities and they are like 33:24 sleeping in some sense, half life. 33:28 That's what they believed. And then Plato came. 33:31 And Plato brought this idea about the soul is eternal 33:36 and then when the people-- a person dies soul is delivered, 33:43 released from the body and goes to a place of delight 33:48 if he was virtuous. 33:49 Yes. A place of pleasure and delight. 33:51 If he was bad, wicked, he was going to be to Tartarus. 33:55 So but soul is eternal. 33:58 So from there came basically 34:00 most of this ideas of eternal punishment, eternal delight. 34:07 Plato and older Pagan views as well. 34:09 Yes, Felix, I want you to reflect on something for me 34:12 because it occurs to me that-- 34:15 when you start with a bad premise. 34:19 When your foundation is faulty or shaky 34:21 then everything you build 34:23 on top of that is going to be askew, 34:25 it's gonna be wrong. Yes. 34:26 If you start with the idea 34:28 that man at birth, or shortly before, 34:31 is given a soul and that soul is immortal 34:35 then you've got a problem 34:37 because at death you got to find something to do with that soul, 34:40 because it never dies. 34:41 Yes. Now you've got to develop a whole host of theology. 34:44 Yes. That comes from your basic mistake. 34:48 You've started out off with a wrong foundation. 34:50 So, now you've got to build 34:51 a structure on that wrong foundation 34:53 and if you're foundation is crooked 34:54 then your structure is gonna be kind of leaning, you know. 34:56 Of course. So now I got this eternal soul. 35:00 At death I got to put him some place. Yes. 35:02 So he's got to either be in heaven forever 35:04 or he's got to burn forever 35:06 because I got to do something with that, 35:07 he doesn't die, according to my theology. 35:09 So I got all of these kind of problems. 35:11 And so it seems like when you start 35:13 with that foundation that's wrong then you got to build 35:16 a superstructure that is also wrong. 35:18 Yes. The beginning point is very important, as you say. 35:23 I think we should begin by understanding who God is. 35:27 Yes. God is the only one who is eternal. 35:31 God is the only one who is creator. So he created. 35:36 So when he created man, 35:41 he didn't bring this eternal entity into the body of man. 35:47 He created the whole thing. 35:49 Yes. That what the Bible says. 35:51 And probably should be good for us 35:52 to read what that passage says in Genesis 2. 35:56 Genesis 2:7 would be a place to study there 36:04 because that is a very important passage. 36:11 Yeah, I knew I was having a college professor today. 36:14 So I have brought my big one. That's good. That's good. 36:17 I brought a big one, too. Okay. 36:20 So this is-- Genesis 2:7 says, 36:24 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, 36:30 and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life 36:35 and man became a living being." Yes. 36:39 Now this expression, "living being," 36:42 in the original language is literally a living-soul. 36:47 So soul is not something eternal. 36:49 It's something that God creates 36:51 out of the breath of life and out of the dust of the earth. 36:56 So that is the beginning of the soul. 36:59 Plato believed that the soul was eternal, 37:01 just like the universe is eternal. 37:04 But the Bible has a different view. Yes. 37:06 And that starting point is very important. 37:09 So in the Bible, God is the creator of life. 37:13 God is eternal, so life is good. 37:19 Yes. The body is good. 37:22 Yeah. And the good thing is not to die. 37:24 The good thing is to be living. Yes, yes. 37:26 And for Plato it was the other way. 37:29 For Plato the body is the jail. 37:33 Do you know, you are prisoner in this body? 37:37 Oh, jail. Yes, yes, yes. 37:39 Sorry, yes. You are a prisoner in this body. 37:42 And then the best thing that happens-- 37:45 that may happen to you is to be released from this place. 37:47 I see. Body is not good. 37:50 Matter is not good. For God, life is good. Yes. 37:54 So these are completely different way of seeing things 37:58 between God and the Bible. 38:01 So that Genesis 2:7 is not only 38:03 description of what happened. 38:06 Its, Felix, more of-- it's a recipe for what happened. 38:09 Yeah, it was-- we combine A with B we get C. 38:12 Yes. So it's was a description, 38:14 but also a recipe for what when on in creation. 38:16 Correct. Yes. 38:18 So what he's saying is that soul-- 38:21 the soul is an entity that came to being out of two materials. 38:28 Yes. The breath of life and the dust of the earth. 38:34 Praise the God. So soul is a composite thing. 38:36 Yeah, I like that. It's composite. 38:38 Yeah. It's like a cake. 38:39 You put the ingredients together, you got cake. 38:40 If you don't put them together, 38:42 you don't have cake. Yeah, so. 38:43 And you divide them. Yes. 38:45 There's no more cake, which is as I think, 38:48 you know-- I like cakes. 38:52 Me too. 38:54 And you know, many people think that-- 38:56 just to--I wanted to read something here 39:00 because many people think that all the Pagans believe 39:02 that the soul was eternal. 39:07 But archeologists have found that only 10%, 39:11 at most 10%, of the tombs have any indication 39:16 that people believe that the soul was eternal. 39:19 Most of the tombs, they believe this was the end. 39:23 Let me show you some-- what it says. 39:25 For example, a very common epitaph was, 39:30 "I was not, I was, I am not, I don't care." 39:36 That was most common. 39:38 Yeah. That was the most common-- 39:40 so common that it was just put in an abbreviation. 39:44 It was just, "N.F.N.S.N.C." 39:48 Just the whole expression, abbreviation. 39:52 Because most of the people believed that. 39:54 Others although said, for example. 39:56 Say that again. I just like that. 39:58 I was not. I was not. 40:00 I was. I was. 40:01 I am not. I am not. 40:03 I don't care. I don't care. Incredible. 40:07 That's what-- and then there's another one. 40:10 There's another one, very common. 40:11 It says, "We are mortals, not immortals." 40:16 There's another one, "When life ends, 40:20 all things perish and turn to nothing." 40:24 There's another one, "We are and we're nothing, 40:28 look rather how swiftly we mortals pass 40:31 from nothing to nothing." 40:34 Those are epitaphs. 40:36 These were the more common epitaphs. 40:38 Other ones, "I was nothing, 40:39 I am nothing and you who now live, eat, drink, play and come" 40:46 Wow. So, these were the epitaphs. Yes, yes. 40:48 So, this view that-- that the soul is eternal 40:51 was not a very common view in ancient time. 40:54 It became very common with Plato. Yes. Yes. 40:57 It's interesting because you got some of the major civilizations, 40:59 espoused this. so, you think all of them did. No. 41:03 But, you know, you got Egypt, you got Greece, 41:05 you got Roam who all fed off of each other 41:07 either logically and culturally. Yes. Yes. 41:09 And became the dominant but-- 41:11 it seems like most of the people didn't buy it. 41:13 That's very, very interesting. 41:14 Even Plato in the Phaedo, which is one of the books-- 41:19 very important books he wrote. Oh yes. 41:21 He acknowledges that most of the people 41:22 don't believe that the soul survives death. Yes. 41:27 He acknowledges that. Yeah. 41:28 But anyway, he was so smart 41:32 and he spoke too well and he wrote very well. 41:34 He was a very brilliant guy. 41:37 So his views were very, very important in ancient times. 41:41 And in the end they won the day. That's what happened. 41:44 Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Indeed. 41:46 Very, very interesting. Now, that I did not know. 41:48 That's something new that I did not know before. 41:52 So, it's very interesting-- 41:53 but I think its very important that we understand that, 41:57 that death is that. 41:58 Death--for God, death is the opposite of life. Yes. Yes. 42:03 And then we need to find out that then death is the-- 42:11 if you go to the bible you are going to find that-- 42:14 you're going to have that God is--has life in itself. 42:18 Then you have humans here, 42:20 they have life but this life is derived from God. Yes. 42:24 In that different level and then comes nothing, 42:28 which is there. Yes. 42:29 The same is--God is pure, humans are clean 42:35 if they are doing what God want's them to do. 42:38 Death is unclean. 42:41 So you have this idea that death 42:43 is the opposite of life. Yes. Yes. 42:46 And this is very important because many people think 42:48 that if you want to be closer to God, 42:49 you need to be dead to go to heaven. 42:53 Yes. Yes. Yes. But that is the opposite. 42:55 God invented life and life is a place 43:01 where God communes with His people. 43:04 So, that's why He's going to resurrect them. 43:06 Yes. Yes. Yes. You know, when you look at it-- 43:08 and I'll put it this way, God put much more work 43:11 into life than He did into death. Of course. 43:15 Well, He didn't put any work in death. 43:16 Right, He didn't put any work in death at all. 43:17 There is much more emphasis and much more work 43:19 into life and continuing life and going on than into death. 43:22 And it's funny because, 43:24 we as humans get so caught up with death 43:26 and so afraid of it and super charged with death. 43:29 And God has put much more emphasis 43:31 and work on life and living and serving, that kind of thing. 43:35 And, you know, very interesting 43:36 many of the righteous people in the Old Testament, 43:40 when they were afraid of dying and they will pray to God. 43:45 And you have a lot of these in the Psalms. 43:48 And the main argument that they say, 43:51 "God, save me from death." 43:52 The main argument is God, save me from death 43:55 because in death nobody praises you. 43:58 Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. 43:59 You want to praise God. 44:01 You want to commune with God, you need to be alive. 44:03 Yes. Yes. I like that. 44:05 Because in death, you cannot praise God. 44:07 So, it's not the fear of death, per se, 44:09 it's just that I cannot serve you, 44:10 I cannot praise you in death. Yes. 44:12 And while I am alive I can do that. Yes. 44:14 So then, also, it is encumbered upon me, while I am alive, 44:17 to praise you because I cannot when I am dead. 44:19 Yes. Yes. You know life is wonderful. 44:22 We need to enjoy it. Yes. 44:23 And we don't need to be looking for something later on 44:28 when you should be enjoying this. 44:30 You are right. Right. 44:31 Otherwise, you are robbed from this time and then you think 44:34 you're going to receive something later on. 44:36 Right, you get nothing. 44:37 Yes. So, it's not a good idea. 44:40 Like that a lot. That is wonderful. 44:43 We've talked about death 44:46 and of course the other part of that same coin is hell. 44:51 You die and then this series of things happen. 44:55 My question would be, since this idea of death 44:59 that many of us thought was kind of universal, it's not so, 45:03 what about ancient ideas of hell and the after life? 45:08 Well, there were some ideas that hell was a place 45:13 where people were going to suffer a lot 45:16 and some of them came from Egypt. 45:19 You know, Egypt was evolving and then came this idea 45:25 that the people will suffer a different kind of torments, 45:30 punishments if they didn't obey 45:33 or worship or serve the right Gods. 45:37 You have to serve the right God 45:39 in order to have good time in the afterlife. 45:43 So, if they didn't serve the right Gods 45:46 then they will go through these punishments. 45:51 By the time of Jesus there were many sectors 45:57 in Jewish people as well as in the work of Roman world 46:04 that there were these torments 46:07 that people would go if they were wicked. 46:10 So it was little by little but it was not 46:14 a universal belief outside the bible. 46:18 Some people believe in it, 46:19 other didn't believe in it. Yes. Yes. 46:21 Stoics, they didn't believe in after life 46:26 and others they didn't believe in this afterlife too. 46:31 So, this hell view developed little by little in many 46:37 like Roman world and other pagan views because even Babylon, 46:41 they didn't believe in this hell. 46:45 People--in the world of the dead all the people were equal. 46:54 They didn't want to-- they didn't describe 46:58 the world of the dead as a enticing, 47:01 interesting world to go or to enjoy or to dread, no. 47:09 So, this work-- these things came later on 47:12 through Plato and Greek ideas and other pagan ideas, 47:16 but developed little by little. I see. I see. 47:19 I want-- we're coming down 47:20 towards the close of our first hour, 47:23 got a few more minutes left. 47:24 But I want to, sort of, tease at somethings 47:26 that I want us to, sort of, look at in the second half. 47:28 One is some of those difficult passages because, 47:30 you know, I remember very early 47:32 on in my mission, people will toss things out 47:34 at you particularly in the Book of Revelation. 47:37 That seemed to say, you know, you're gonna burn forever. 47:41 And they would sort of lean on these passages 47:44 and scare people with these passages. 47:46 One other things that, sort of, 47:48 rocked my mother back on her heel, 47:50 because she was a Methodist for many, many years. 47:52 And she went to church one Sunday 47:54 and heard this sermon 47:55 and I mean the pastor really laid it on, man. 47:57 He just--he had a burning-- oh, you know, 47:59 he had it like a barbeque with barbeque sauce and whole thing 48:03 you know, you just rolling in and burning in hell forever. 48:06 And she just didn't-- 48:09 it just didn't set well with her. It just didn't. 48:12 And that began to put in her mind 48:15 and doubts about that faith. 48:18 And of course when she--I joined the Adventist church as a child 48:21 and was going to church on Sabbath and she ask me-- 48:24 and I was pretty young. 48:26 You know, what do you guys believe? 48:28 'Cause I was going with the church 48:29 of the people across the street. 48:30 And she said, as long as you're going to church 48:32 and doing this, I am not gonna stop you. 48:33 It's not for me but it's okay for you. 48:35 So I was baptized at 10. 48:36 Later on I baptized my mom and baptized my dad 48:39 and baptized my sister, you know. 48:41 But one of the things that really sort of set her back 48:43 was this hell thing just-- I can't subscribes that 48:49 and if you got something better 48:50 I am gonna with you because I don't like this. 48:54 And I didn't know that much at that time. 48:56 But I knew that we didn't burn always 49:01 because I would listen to sermons in church. Yes. 49:03 And so I told her, that's not right. 49:04 Well, what is right? 49:06 I don't know but that's not right. 49:07 You know, that kind of thing. And so she kind of like that. 49:09 Yes, and I think--those are verses that Jesus speaks 49:13 all of them about end and hell 49:16 and the worm that doesn't die, 49:20 and the fire that is not quenched. 49:23 And quenched, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. 49:25 And then, we when you also to answer those passages 49:27 which speak about-- for example, 49:29 when Elijah went and this kid had died. Yes. Yes. Yes. 49:35 And then he heals him. The spirit came back into him. 49:41 How do we understand that? Yes. Yes. Yes. 49:42 Or this idea of release the ghost. 49:45 Or when Rachel was dying she was releasing the spirit, 49:51 how do we understand those passages? 49:53 So, we need to understand those too. 49:55 Indeed. So, in a second half, we're gonna rally tackle 49:56 some of that stuff because you may have been assaulted 49:59 with some of those passages as I have been over the years. 50:03 I am sure Felix has also. 50:04 And if you talked about hell, someone has grabbed something 50:08 from revelation or something from some place that say, 50:09 "Well, this says you are gonna burn forever." 50:11 So, we want to wrestle with some of those things. 50:13 So, now the school really starts, this was kindergarten. 50:17 Now, we're moving out to grad school 50:19 because we're gonna loot at some 50:20 of those passages in the second half. 50:21 Now, something I've not done. 50:23 I've been remiss in not doing. 50:24 I want to pull out our free offer for the evening. 50:26 This is a little book written by Danny Shelton, 50:30 "Does God Love Sinners Forever- 50:33 Is there a hell? How long will it burn?" 50:36 We've offered this before but if you not gotten one, 50:38 this is one of the better little books that has been written. 50:42 Danny writes in a very simple user-friendly style. 50:46 Sometimes we can be a little technical 50:48 with some of these things and Danny does not do that. 50:51 This is written so that anybody can understand 50:54 and everybody can understand. 50:55 So, it is our free offer for the evening. 50:57 So, if you get the CD or the DVD of this particular show, 51:00 along with this book this really ought to do it for you. 51:03 If you want to get it, very simple, 51:05 call us (618) 627-4651. 51:08 That number again, (618)-- I'll slow it down, 627-4651. 51:13 Or email us at freeoffer@3abn.org 51:21 and we'll send this out to you. 51:23 Good little book, good little something 51:24 to have in your library, 51:26 you can share it. 51:27 Not a long read, it is just about-- 51:29 I am looking at 15 or 16 pages. 51:32 Has some pictures, so, it's not just all writing. 51:35 Really well done. 51:37 Really easy to understand and will give you 51:39 a good foundation for this subject. 51:41 Which as we said at the top of the show, 51:42 it has really been sort of ripped apart and cause 51:46 a lot of fear and consignation in the minds of people. 51:52 Our instructor this evening is Felix Cortez. 51:54 He is a professor of New Testament theology 51:56 at Montemorelos University or the University Montemorelos, 52:01 I just like saying that. Yes. 52:03 Yes, it's a long term. 52:05 So-- and we're talking about death and hell. 52:07 Again, two very, very important subjects, 52:10 'so shall you live, so shall you die' and "live on or not.' 52:14 So, we're answering those questions 52:15 and we're getting a good foundation. 52:17 And as I said in the second half, 52:18 we're gonna take a look at some of those 52:20 seemingly difficult text to interpret. 52:22 We're gonna try to deal with those also. 52:25 Well, I think this is going to be our very good moment 52:29 that we're going to have. Yes. 52:30 I agree with you and again thank you 52:32 for coming from such a long way. 52:34 It's my pleasure. It's been a pleasure for us. 52:36 Now, a couple of things I want to just talk about. 52:38 Let's just sort of dip our toe into water, just a little bit. 52:42 Did the ideas of hell in Old Testament times and death 52:47 and hell differ much as we move into the New Testament? 52:50 Of course, the children of Israel were surrounded 52:53 by different groups of people. 52:54 You have philistines and other kind of people 52:56 they are dealing with, were those ideas very different 52:59 from the things that the Egyptians who they had left 53:02 as far as what's gonna happen? 53:04 Do they differ very greatly? 53:06 Well, the context, the context of Israel, 53:09 yes, changed. 53:10 The Old Testament has these Canaanites, 53:14 Philistines that had different views on afterlife. 53:19 But the New Testament has as its main background context 53:25 that Greco-Roman world. Yes. Yes. 53:27 And that is a very different context. 53:31 By the time the New Testament is written, 53:34 Greco-Romans have been in the land if Israel 53:36 for more than one or two centuries. Yes. Yes. 53:40 So the ideas of Plato and others have been very important. 53:45 In fact we have Jewish philosophers 53:48 who just take the ideas of Plato 53:51 and mixed it with the Old Testament. 53:54 And you have a very well integrated view 53:59 of like Roman philosophy with the Old Testament. Yeah. 54:02 So this is the context in which in New Testament is written. 54:06 Yes. Yes. 54:07 Now, the challenges of course-- most of the challenges, 54:10 biblically, comes from New Testament time. Of course. 54:12 And the texts that people tend to 54:15 want to assault us with are New Testament texts. 54:18 All of them. Yes, New Testament is a problem. 54:20 Nobody going back to the Old Testament 54:22 to get stuff on hell and death. 54:24 It's all New Testament stuff. 54:25 So, it's really-- the challenge is how they wrote 54:30 and what they put down as apposed 54:31 to really what they thought. 54:33 It's interpreting always in the manner of the writer 54:35 to get to correct understanding, isn't it? Yes. 54:37 It is. So, we need to understand this context 54:39 and what the author is trying to say. 54:42 But I would say that it is very clear in the New Testament 54:45 that they have a-- they don't have a platonic view. 54:49 They have a different view. 54:50 The view of the New Testament, 54:52 even though written at different context, 54:54 is the same view of the Old Testament. 54:56 The idea of man as a composite being--a composite being. 55:01 The idea of man as not inherently eternal. 55:05 Man as creative and death as the end 55:09 but resurrection as the solution to death 55:14 then that is the same from the Old Testament. 55:16 So we have the same train if thought 55:20 from the Old Testament to the New Testament. 55:22 Praise the Lord. 55:24 I want you, in our closing minute here, 55:25 to give me a blanket statement because so many times, 55:29 in fact, when I first began to do evangelism, 55:32 you know, we have pastors come and so much of their defense, 55:35 their apologetic for their believe 55:37 came from the Book of Revelation. 55:39 When you see terms like 'Rising ages unto ages' 55:44 or 'For Ever and Ever' coming out of a book 55:46 which is so--it's so-- what's the word I want. 55:50 It's--you know, you dealing with literal things 55:53 and then you dealing with things that are apocalyptic things, 55:56 like beast talking, countries rising out of the ocean. 55:59 The fact that you cannot take that literally-- 56:01 so, talk to me a little bit about trying to develop 56:03 a doctrine of hell from a book that is not 56:07 always saying what it is saying. 56:08 Yeah. Well, yes. 56:10 Revelation, of course is a very-- 56:14 it has a lot of imagery and it uses a lot of-- 56:17 you have dragons there, you have horses 56:21 and you have death impersonated. 56:23 And you have angels and mountains and many things. 56:29 All of it is imagery. Yes. 56:32 But the problem is that we don't understand that bible 56:35 as the original readers could have understood. 56:39 Because they knew the Old Testament 56:41 and when they hear these ideas of burning forever, 56:46 a fire that burn forever, 56:48 the cloud of their torment or their-- 56:52 The smoke of the torment-- 56:53 The smoke of the torment ascends forever. 56:55 Yes. Yes. They have no rest, for die-- 56:56 Yes. Yes. Yes. 56:58 They don't think as we think, they immediately remember Eden. 57:02 They immediately remember Isaiah 34. 57:05 So, they think-- the original readers, 57:08 they would go to the Old Testament 57:09 and we go to the Greece or Roman thinking. 57:12 Right. Right. They went to the Old Testament. 57:13 I see. I see. So, it's very different. 57:15 And when you read this we are filled with the fear. 57:23 Yes. And wrath. They know, wrath. 57:25 They were filled with hope because the imagery 57:29 of the destruction of the Sodom-- 57:30 sorry, Eden with the smoke going up forever, 57:34 fire burning forever. 57:36 It was about Eden being destroyed forever. 57:40 Okay. Now, we're gonna put a pin right there 57:41 because right at the end out our first hour 57:43 you see where we're going. 57:45 This is good stuff, you want to come back and be with us. 57:46 We'll be back in just 2 minutes. |
Revised 2014-12-17