Hello, and welcome to 3ABN
live. My name is C.A. Murray.
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And allow me once again
to thank you for sharing
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just a little of
your day with us.
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We thank you,
always for your prayers,
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your support of this
ministry, and for the time
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that we get to spend
together from time to time.
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We are early in the year
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and it's a good
time to be alive,
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a good time to
serve the Lord as always.
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And we've got a really, really
interesting program today.
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We get 2 hours to sit
and we can relax a little bit
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and talk a little bit
more at length on a subject
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that there is no small
amount of confusion and,
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dare I say, disinformation about
even within the religious ranks.
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We're gonna talk
about death and hell.
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Now I know, you got
your hand and saying,
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"Oh, 2 hours of death and hell."
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Well, when you know the
truth about death and hell
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it's not a
negative subject at all.
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It's not a subject
to dread or to fear
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because God has made provision.
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And when you
understand the truth
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about what God is
doing, what happens at death,
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what happens indeed
through out all of eternity,
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they are, one,
confronting subjects.
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They are, one,
subject that need not caused
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dread or fear in your life.
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And, really, you see again
that we serve of a loving God,
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a caring God, a God
who is fair and just.
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And we're gonna move
through that this evening
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as I talk with my guest,
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pastor, doctor,
Professor Felix Cortez.
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Felix, it's good
to have you here.
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Thank you. My pleasure.
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Yeah, this is a nice guy.
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You know, you meet
people from time to time
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and you can tell right
off that they love the Lord
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and that they are nice guys.
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So we're gonna have
a good time together
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because I like this guy.
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Yes. And he's got lot to say.
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I was reading his
syllabus last night.
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This is an impressive--
A little too much I guess?
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This is an impressive
work and I was telling
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I'm gonna be a
plane in just a few days.
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And so I'm gonna
reread this with a pen in hand
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because there are many things
that you can take notes on.
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So that's the
subject, death and hell.
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We're gonna try to demystify,
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demythologize some of these
things for which there is--
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over which there is this cloud.
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You know, in
the last few years--
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trying to think of
the name of the series
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and Robert told me in a
control room just a little
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while ago but the
vampire craze has come up
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and there is so
much misinformation out
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about what
happens to you at death.
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And of course we
go back to Genesis,
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that statement by Satan
which has been repopulated
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so many, many times,
"Thou shall not surely die"
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and the whole list of theology
is that have come from statement
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that when you die
you don't really die
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and all the
misinformation that comes--
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even from the pulpits
of the land about that.
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So you got 2 hours of talking
about some of these things.
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It's gonna be
really, really good show.
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I want you to call your friends.
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As Danny says,
sometimes call your enemies also
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because they need to hear this.
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They need hear
the truth about this
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and we've got
someone who has spent
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a good amount of time studying.
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And we're gonna talk
about Felix, his life,
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how he got to where he is.
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And then we're gonna dive
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into this very,
very important subject.
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So, dare I say you may
wanna fire up your computer,
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your ipad, grab
pencil and paper,
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'cause you're
gonna need to take notes.
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This is death and hell
school, death and hell 101. Yes.
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Basic course to try to
understand some of the things
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which are very, very
important to our life
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because in our belief, Felix,
as to what happens at death,
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we get a picture that
is accurate of a loving God
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or as you well
know a picture of a God
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who seems very, very
vengeful and very evil.
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No, I think Bible is
very clear that God is love.
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And that is true
also in his teaching
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and his actions about hell.
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In the end I think
we're going to have
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a very picture of who God is.
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Yes. And why loves us.
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Even He loves his enemies.
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He died for them. Yes.
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So He's going to be
just but also loving to them.
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Even to the end.
Even in the final event--
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Yes. Of this-- the
history of this world.
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Yes, yes, indeed.
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I think, you know,
we will use the name
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Ellen White a lot
this evening, I suspect.
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Yes, probably, yes.
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A great Christian
writer from the 19th century.
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One of the founders of the
Seventh-day Adventist church.
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One of the
statements that she made,
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and I'm not sure
of the book right now,
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but the idea of a vengeful God
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who would burn
people throughout eternity
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has turned off more
people to Christianity
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than perhaps any
other single doctrine.
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So we're gonna kind of pull
the cover off of that tonight
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and look at God as He really is
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and not this defacing
of the image of God. Yes.
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That an eternally burning hell
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would kind of put in
the minds of so many.
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Yes. So I am very, very
excited to have you here.
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It's always my pleasure
as well. Good looking guy.
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That lilting accent
you hear is from Mexico
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and he teaches
in Mexico even now.
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We'll talk about
that in just a little bit.
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But I think now we
wanna go to our song.
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One of the great
friends of this ministry,
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one of the gifted individuals,
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who is a humble Christian,
just a wonderful person--
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we really like Tim
Parton around here.
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And he's just a nice
guy and he loves the Lord.
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He's gonna be playing
"Hallelujah, What a Savior."
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Tim Parton has happy fingers.
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He is a great pianist and
as we said, a great person.
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On my CD project he did the
piano work on Pastor Lomacang's
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CD project on Danny's.
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Really, just about anybody
that records here at 3ABN,
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that piano work you
hear will be Tim Parton.
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We love him and he's a
great person to work with.
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Well, my guest is Felix
Cortez. And that F.E.L.I.X.
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we would say it in English Felix
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but that 'E' in Spanish
is pronounced like an 'A',
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I happened to know that. Yes.
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So it's Felix Cortez.
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He is a professor of
religion-- no, professor--
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let me get it right,
professor of theology.
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New Testament. New Testament.
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At Montemorelos University.
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Yes, a long name and difficult
to pronounce. But you did well.
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I have not been to
that school but I've met
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many, many graduates
of that fine institution.
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Okay. Several doctors
have come out of that--
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well, many doctors have
come out of that institution
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but I know several that
have come through there.
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And you do good
work at Montemorelos.
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Now I need to get
some history on you, man.
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Sorry. Need to get a
little history on you.
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Oh, yes. You were
obviously born in Mexico.
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Yes, I was born there.
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I was born-- I come
from a pastoral family.
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My father is a pastor. So
I heard the gospel from him.
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Usually pastor's
kids sometimes are not
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the best kids in a church.
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But that was my--
those were my brothers.
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Yeah, okay. No, I
had my problems too.
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So, yes. So I had a--
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I think I had a wonderful
time being a pastor kid.
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And I heard the
gospel in his preaching's
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and I was converted there.
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And I think since I
was 6 years old, probably,
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I wanted to become a pastor.
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I never changed my mind.
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So when I was 20 years old,
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I finished
theology for some reason
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I finished earlier
than normal. There you got.
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Now do you have your
brothers and sisters?
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Yes, I have two brothers.
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One older brother
and a younger brother.
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You're in the middle. Yes.
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You know what they say
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about that middle
child can be a little--
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Yes, you know
they are not pastors
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but they do
pastoral work in the church.
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Both of them are
very good leaders
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and they work very
good with young people,
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and very active in the churches.
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Yes. So I'm very
glad with what they do.
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Yeah, let me ask
you something, Felix,
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because growing up
in an Adventist home
00:10:43.27\00:10:45.90
does not automatically
make you an Adventist,
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nor does it guarantee that you
have a relationship with Jesus.
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When did that happen for you?
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I know, you've said at age 6,
00:10:54.45\00:10:55.92
you were thinking
about being a pastor
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but when did it dawn
on you that you needed
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and have a one-on-one
relationship with Jesus Christ?
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You know, that is
very interesting--
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many people have very a
pointing time, a moment of--
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you know, illumination
or something like that.
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Yes. I didn't have that--
00:11:12.61\00:11:14.56
No.
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I don't remember exact
point in time when I said,
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you know, I'm a new person.
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It was a
little-by-little moment. And--
00:11:23.24\00:11:27.32
but yes there were many times
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when I felt that I
needed God's forgiveness
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and I felt that forgiveness.
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So that was a conversion
that was deepening. Yes.
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In different moments
in my time--in my life.
00:11:39.44\00:11:42.46
So--but I cannot
remember one moment
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which I say you know
this was the conversion.
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That bit thing, yes, yes.
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So I'm a little
different from anybody, yes.
00:11:50.64\00:11:53.42
During your teenage years,
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did you have what we
sometimes call wilderness years?
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You know, when you
kind of stray from the Lord
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or did you kind
of stay with the Lord
00:12:00.11\00:12:01.48
throughout your years?
00:12:01.51\00:12:02.88
Well, I didn't have
that wilderness years
00:12:02.91\00:12:05.00
in my teenage years.
00:12:05.03\00:12:08.13
I did have them later on, yes.
00:12:08.16\00:12:11.19
The late wilderness experience.
00:12:11.22\00:12:13.09
I wasn't really a pastor.
00:12:13.12\00:12:14.81
I was already studying for
my PhD when I that wilderness.
00:12:14.84\00:12:19.38
You know, I had a
big crisis in my family.
00:12:19.41\00:12:23.51
I had a son who had cancer.
00:12:23.54\00:12:26.36
So he was born when
he was 2 months and half
00:12:26.39\00:12:34.10
he was diagnosed
with a big tumor.
00:12:34.13\00:12:36.79
So he struggled with cancer
for four and a half months
00:12:36.82\00:12:42.69
and then he died.
00:12:42.72\00:12:44.46
So it was a very
difficult experience.
00:12:44.49\00:12:47.60
And I think it was a
challenging experience.
00:12:47.63\00:12:50.76
But in the end, even though
00:12:50.79\00:12:53.29
that was a wilderness--
that was a difficult time.
00:12:53.32\00:12:56.78
Yes. In the end I
think I was strengthened
00:12:56.81\00:13:00.01
and I think that
I felt God closer.
00:13:00.04\00:13:04.25
And I strengthened my
relationship with him.
00:13:04.28\00:13:08.53
Praise God. I
was converted again.
00:13:08.56\00:13:11.51
So I guess I had my wilderness.
00:13:11.54\00:13:13.57
A little of the
wilderness, yeah.
00:13:13.60\00:13:14.97
That was a
little later on, yeah.
00:13:15.00\00:13:16.68
Well, you know
those kinds of experience,
00:13:16.71\00:13:18.08
Felix, they will
drive you to Jesus.
00:13:18.11\00:13:21.14
Yeah. Or many
times drive people away.
00:13:21.17\00:13:22.98
They will have
you surrender to him
00:13:23.01\00:13:24.38
or have you
shake your fist at him.
00:13:24.41\00:13:25.78
Yes. They don't
leave you neutral.
00:13:25.81\00:13:27.59
Yes. But to a young child,
you know, he's struggling.
00:13:27.62\00:13:30.11
Yes. He doesn't
know what's going on.
00:13:30.14\00:13:31.51
He's just a little baby dealing
with an adult sized problem.
00:13:31.54\00:13:35.92
Yes. And you as
an adult see that.
00:13:35.95\00:13:38.40
That's either got
to break your heart
00:13:38.43\00:13:40.36
and send you to
Christ or turn you way.
00:13:40.39\00:13:43.36
So praise God it
did the opposite, yeah.
00:13:43.39\00:13:44.89
Yes, and the problem with me
00:13:44.92\00:13:46.29
is that I was studying theology
deep-level at that moment.
00:13:46.32\00:13:50.75
And then at that moment
you're studying a lot of books
00:13:50.78\00:13:53.76
that don't think as you do.
00:13:53.79\00:13:55.97
Yes, yeah. Regarding God,
so your faith is tempt the lot.
00:13:56.00\00:14:00.28
So it came in a
difficult moment.
00:14:00.31\00:14:02.77
So it was also a theological
challenge for me. Yes, yes.
00:14:02.80\00:14:07.21
Not only a relational challenge
00:14:07.24\00:14:10.03
between me and God,
also theological one.
00:14:10.06\00:14:12.71
And but I think in the
end it was a good experience.
00:14:12.74\00:14:17.02
Praise God, praise God.
How did you meet your wife?
00:14:17.05\00:14:19.63
Well, I met her at the
Montemorelos University.
00:14:19.66\00:14:22.81
It was very
interesting because she didn't--
00:14:22.84\00:14:24.88
she was not studying there.
00:14:24.91\00:14:26.42
I had finished school.
00:14:26.45\00:14:28.35
I was living, I was
going to become a pastor.
00:14:28.38\00:14:30.40
There was 5 days
before I went to my district
00:14:30.43\00:14:34.62
to become a
pastor and I met her.
00:14:34.65\00:14:37.25
And I said, "Well, this is
the women I want in my life."
00:14:37.28\00:14:41.93
So you know right
away? Yes, right away.
00:14:41.96\00:14:47.34
I think it was
love at first sight.
00:14:47.37\00:14:49.97
Of course, we went through a
relationship through 2 years.
00:14:50.00\00:14:55.25
We were not together
in the same university.
00:14:55.28\00:14:56.88
We were 12 hours apart.
00:14:56.91\00:14:58.87
So we were driving. Yes.
00:14:58.90\00:15:01.44
And calling and
I pay a large bill
00:15:01.47\00:15:04.84
when I was unmarried.
00:15:04.87\00:15:07.08
That's why I decided to marry,
00:15:07.11\00:15:08.48
not to be pay more phone bills.
00:15:08.51\00:15:10.74
So 2 years in a relationship
and then we married.
00:15:10.77\00:15:16.69
But it has been a
wonderful relationship.
00:15:16.72\00:15:18.18
Praise God. And
how many years married?
00:15:18.21\00:15:20.37
21 years married.
00:15:20.40\00:15:22.75
See, I've got to push
your age up a little bit
00:15:22.78\00:15:24.84
'cause you look pretty young.
00:15:24.87\00:15:26.24
If you figure 20, I
got to add 20 to 20 and,
00:15:26.27\00:15:29.23
you know, I got
to start going up.
00:15:29.26\00:15:30.92
But God has blessed you, man.
00:15:30.95\00:15:32.32
Yeah, praise that.
And how many children?
00:15:32.35\00:15:34.29
I have 2 children. Yes.
00:15:34.32\00:15:36.81
A boy, 14 year
old and a 12 year old.
00:15:36.84\00:15:41.37
Well, I'm
forgetting probably 15 years.
00:15:41.40\00:15:44.01
Yeah, but he's a
wonderful guy. Okay.
00:15:44.04\00:15:47.13
He loves music he plays piano
00:15:47.16\00:15:49.76
and violin and
writes music, too.
00:15:49.79\00:15:53.33
And my daughter plays the piano
00:15:53.36\00:15:55.31
and cello and she is an artist.
00:15:55.34\00:15:57.40
She draws. So I'm
blessed with very good children.
00:15:57.43\00:16:01.75
Yes. Are they
active in the church?
00:16:01.78\00:16:03.24
They are active in the church.
00:16:03.27\00:16:04.64
Praise God, praise God, yeah.
00:16:04.67\00:16:06.30
So you pastored first
before coming to university.
00:16:06.33\00:16:09.48
Where did you pastor? I
pastored in Mexico City.
00:16:09.51\00:16:12.24
I pastored in a
place in Mexico City
00:16:12.27\00:16:16.35
which is a poor zone which
is-- but the wonderful churches.
00:16:16.38\00:16:23.16
Yes. I pastored
there for 4 years
00:16:23.19\00:16:25.16
and then moved to a
different district nearby.
00:16:25.19\00:16:28.35
So I was pastor
for several years.
00:16:28.38\00:16:32.39
And then I did
ministry as youth director.
00:16:32.42\00:16:36.21
Okay. For 7 years, Mexico City.
00:16:36.24\00:16:38.77
Very, very good. Let me
ask you this question, Felix,
00:16:38.80\00:16:41.26
because we all
come out of school--
00:16:41.29\00:16:43.85
I did, came out of
college with very set ideas
00:16:43.88\00:16:48.04
on what pastoring
was going to be like.
00:16:48.07\00:16:51.53
The idea that you left
school with and the reality
00:16:51.56\00:16:54.47
once you got into pastoring
was there a great difference?
00:16:54.50\00:16:57.08
Once you really got into--
00:16:57.11\00:16:59.32
what we say the
rubber meets the road,
00:16:59.35\00:17:00.94
when you got your feet on
the ground was that the same?
00:17:00.97\00:17:03.00
Different? How was
that challenge for you?
00:17:03.03\00:17:04.45
It was different. Yes.
00:17:04.48\00:17:06.18
There are many things that
they don't teach you at school.
00:17:06.21\00:17:08.19
You got that right. Yes.
00:17:08.22\00:17:09.95
And you cannot teach them until
you find them. Yeah, right.
00:17:09.98\00:17:15.14
But I had the advantage
of being a pastor's kid.
00:17:15.17\00:17:18.85
I had been in
church a lot. Yeah.
00:17:18.88\00:17:20.80
So that helped me a lot.
00:17:20.83\00:17:23.25
But there were
many experiences I faced
00:17:23.28\00:17:27.23
I was not prepared to face.
00:17:27.26\00:17:30.54
But God is
gracious. God is good.
00:17:30.57\00:17:32.16
And He helped me in
facing these situations. Yeah.
00:17:32.19\00:17:36.80
Do you know, I had the privilege
00:17:36.83\00:17:38.64
of pastoring a wonderful church,
00:17:38.67\00:17:41.23
the first church I pastored
was really an incredible church.
00:17:41.26\00:17:46.46
Do you know, I was 20 years old.
00:17:46.49\00:17:50.86
I looked like 18 year old.
00:17:50.89\00:17:54.69
So they were just afraid
of what was going to happen.
00:17:54.72\00:17:59.62
This is little boy
coming into my church, yes?
00:17:59.65\00:18:01.32
Yes. You know what they did?
00:18:01.35\00:18:04.74
You know, one of
the elders of church--
00:18:04.77\00:18:06.82
just got the all the
church knelt to together
00:18:06.85\00:18:09.15
and brought me into
the center and said,
00:18:09.18\00:18:10.55
"we're going to pray for you."
00:18:10.58\00:18:12.90
And you know, that
was a special moment.
00:18:12.93\00:18:14.96
Yeah. I haven't forgotten that.
00:18:14.99\00:18:16.40
Yes. It was really,
really great moment.
00:18:16.43\00:18:18.97
You know, churches can be a
real blessing for the pastor.
00:18:19.00\00:18:21.91
Oh, yes. And this first church
was a real blessing to me.
00:18:21.94\00:18:27.81
They taught me a
lot of things. Oh, yes.
00:18:27.84\00:18:29.94
If you--you know,
sometimes you think
00:18:29.97\00:18:31.94
I'm going to teach them but
they're really teaching you.
00:18:31.97\00:18:34.72
My first--I think I pastored--
one, two, three, four, five--
00:18:34.75\00:18:36.74
six churches and they
didn't let me stay long,
00:18:36.77\00:18:39.05
they moved me fast.
00:18:39.08\00:18:40.73
I didn't make 3 years
at my first 3 churches
00:18:40.76\00:18:42.61
and then the last one,
the membership was 2000,
00:18:42.64\00:18:45.11
I stayed there 8 years.
00:18:45.14\00:18:47.16
But they moved me
along pretty quick.
00:18:47.19\00:18:48.68
So I didn't have
time to make any enemies
00:18:48.71\00:18:50.13
'cause they kept moving me on.
00:18:50.16\00:18:51.53
But each church
was a good church
00:18:51.56\00:18:53.24
and each church
taught me something.
00:18:53.27\00:18:54.64
Yes. And if you go in with
the right effort you can learn.
00:18:54.67\00:18:56.67
So you pastored-- when
did the idea occur to you
00:18:56.70\00:18:59.71
that maybe you wanted
to move into teaching?
00:18:59.74\00:19:02.23
Into teaching? Well, I always
wanted to do something teaching,
00:19:02.26\00:19:09.79
to study more and to teach.
00:19:09.82\00:19:14.09
But I was not sure
if I wanted to teach
00:19:14.12\00:19:16.72
or to continue
in youth ministries.
00:19:16.75\00:19:21.19
But when I was--
as a youth director
00:19:21.22\00:19:27.01
I did a lot of seminars,
00:19:27.04\00:19:29.64
I did a lot of
instruction to young people.
00:19:29.67\00:19:33.15
And I found that I like that.
00:19:33.18\00:19:36.75
And I said, well,
I should study more,
00:19:36.78\00:19:41.22
and I should go
into teaching ministries.
00:19:41.25\00:19:43.47
So, I had the opportunity
to do that. Praise God.
00:19:43.50\00:19:46.88
Now you're undergraduate degree,
was that from Montemorelos?
00:19:46.91\00:19:49.20
Yes, my undergraduate
was from Montemorelos.
00:19:49.23\00:19:52.04
Then I did
masters in literary theory
00:19:52.07\00:19:54.80
in hermeneutics
00:19:54.83\00:19:56.78
and in a non-Adventist
University, Mexico city.
00:19:56.81\00:19:59.45
And then I when to
Andrews University to do
00:19:59.48\00:20:01.90
my PhD in New Testament,
00:20:01.93\00:20:04.01
which is
biblically territory so.
00:20:04.04\00:20:06.95
That has been my journey.
00:20:06.98\00:20:08.72
That has been my journey. Yes.
00:20:08.75\00:20:10.62
So obviously,
answer my next question,
00:20:10.65\00:20:13.03
you learned
you're English at Andrews
00:20:13.06\00:20:14.43
while you were in the States?
Well, yes, I learned before.
00:20:14.46\00:20:17.71
I could read it, I
translate it, I could speak it.
00:20:17.74\00:20:21.25
But my son would say
that I cannot speak it yet.
00:20:21.28\00:20:24.08
So he says I
speak the worse English
00:20:24.11\00:20:27.40
that he has heard but,
well, I think he's right.
00:20:27.43\00:20:30.23
But, I learned to
speak it there. That's right.
00:20:30.26\00:20:34.20
Praise God. I
think you speak well.
00:20:34.23\00:20:35.60
You're English is far
superior to my Spanish.
00:20:35.63\00:20:37.52
I tell you. I can get by.
00:20:37.55\00:20:41.03
But I love the language.
00:20:41.06\00:20:42.43
We want to go into, you
know, our subject for the night.
00:20:42.46\00:20:47.25
Talk about death and hell
and the absolute confusion
00:20:47.28\00:20:53.40
that has
surrounded these subjects
00:20:53.43\00:20:55.09
for so many years and in
so many places. To try to--
00:20:55.12\00:20:58.67
as I said in the
beginning of the show,
00:20:58.70\00:21:00.07
to sort of
demythologize or demystify
00:21:00.10\00:21:03.67
these subjects
which have really been--
00:21:03.70\00:21:05.48
you know, if you go
to a 100 denominations
00:21:05.51\00:21:07.58
you may get 100 different ideas
00:21:07.61\00:21:09.50
on what happens when you die.
00:21:09.53\00:21:10.90
Yes. Or the kind
of God that we serve.
00:21:10.93\00:21:13.82
So let's walk through that.
00:21:13.85\00:21:15.36
Let's sort open up
the word and take off.
00:21:15.39\00:21:19.47
Yes. Yes.
00:21:19.50\00:21:20.93
Do you know the death and hell
00:21:20.96\00:21:24.55
is a very important topic today.
00:21:24.58\00:21:29.27
April, last year,
magazine had this main story,
00:21:29.30\00:21:33.92
the core topic, it was on hell.
00:21:33.95\00:21:37.62
It was triggered by a
book published by Rob Bells
00:21:37.65\00:21:40.22
which is very famous pastor.
00:21:40.25\00:21:42.75
He has produced
these Nooma serious videos
00:21:42.78\00:21:45.29
which are very
interesting to see.
00:21:45.32\00:21:46.93
And I like to see them.
00:21:46.96\00:21:49.14
And he produced
the book, "Love Wins."
00:21:49.17\00:21:52.34
And this book "Love Wins,"
00:21:52.37\00:21:54.43
challenges the traditional
evangelical views about hell.
00:21:54.46\00:22:00.72
So this created a lot of
debate about what hell is?
00:22:00.75\00:22:07.10
And then this last April,
there was another covering
00:22:07.13\00:22:12.32
in the Time
Magazine about heaven.
00:22:12.35\00:22:14.28
So we have hell and heaven
which are very interesting.
00:22:14.31\00:22:18.70
And then there is another book.
00:22:18.73\00:22:20.10
Yeah, and you can
see in the screen.
00:22:20.13\00:22:23.01
"Heavens is for
real" by Todd Burpo. Yes.
00:22:23.04\00:22:25.55
This is the story of a kid
that is a near death experience
00:22:25.58\00:22:29.55
and he goes to heaven
00:22:29.58\00:22:30.95
and he meets a lot
of people there. Yes.
00:22:30.98\00:22:32.35
And he has a
very good time there
00:22:32.38\00:22:34.65
and then he comes back
and he writes this book.
00:22:34.68\00:22:37.21
And this book has been
in the bestseller list for--
00:22:37.24\00:22:40.90
it was for 70 plus weeks.
00:22:40.93\00:22:43.38
Yes, yes. First place.
00:22:43.41\00:22:45.26
So it was a very important book.
00:22:45.29\00:22:46.66
And so what happens
after death is a topic
00:22:46.69\00:22:52.37
that interests a lot of people.
00:22:52.40\00:22:55.13
What happens when you die?
00:22:55.16\00:22:56.92
Are you going go
through place of pleasure
00:22:56.95\00:23:03.31
or to a place of punishment?
00:23:03.34\00:23:05.70
And then the
problem is, can a God
00:23:05.73\00:23:08.19
who is love have
people being punished forever?
00:23:08.22\00:23:12.38
That has been the question.
00:23:12.41\00:23:15.48
Yes, yes. So that was--
00:23:15.51\00:23:17.85
that is what has happened.
00:23:17.88\00:23:19.25
You know in
2000-- sorry 1999 or 1998
00:23:19.28\00:23:23.83
evangelicals took this topic
00:23:23.86\00:23:27.65
because they
understood that it was difficult
00:23:27.68\00:23:33.36
to have this
idea that a loving God
00:23:33.39\00:23:37.37
would have people
burning forever. Surely.
00:23:37.40\00:23:40.32
So they called this
committee and studied the topic
00:23:40.35\00:23:44.63
because there were
several evangelical
00:23:44.66\00:23:47.25
important theologians
who challenged this idea.
00:23:47.28\00:23:51.33
One of them was John Stott.
00:23:51.36\00:23:53.80
John Stott said, you know,
00:23:53.83\00:23:56.92
God is not going to
punish wicked people forever.
00:23:56.95\00:24:00.85
They're going to be annihilated.
00:24:00.88\00:24:03.31
And then came Clark Pinnock.
00:24:03.34\00:24:05.00
And Clark Pinnock
agreed with John Stott
00:24:05.03\00:24:07.52
and then John Cleek
also challenged his views.
00:24:07.55\00:24:10.02
So that were these views
in evangelical circles. Yes.
00:24:10.05\00:24:15.29
So they gathered together
and they studied the topic
00:24:15.32\00:24:19.59
and they
published a book about it.
00:24:19.62\00:24:21.90
And what they did
in the end was to say,
00:24:21.93\00:24:23.63
"well, these are the arguments
in favor of annihilation.
00:24:23.66\00:24:28.36
God is not going to
punish people forever.
00:24:28.39\00:24:30.29
And this is the
verses, the keys,
00:24:30.32\00:24:35.57
ideas for God is going
to burn people forever."
00:24:35.60\00:24:39.46
So they put both
views and then you decide.
00:24:39.49\00:24:42.54
So they tried at least
to be fair and balanced
00:24:42.57\00:24:44.68
and unbiased in
their presentation.
00:24:44.71\00:24:46.20
Yeah. That's good.
00:24:46.23\00:24:47.60
That is a good book, that one.
It lays both views forever--
00:24:47.63\00:24:52.36
And the name of
the book is again?
00:24:52.39\00:24:53.76
The name of the
book is-- I have it here.
00:24:53.79\00:24:57.90
It is-- let me find it here.
00:24:57.93\00:25:01.39
It is a report, it
is "The Nature of Hell."
00:25:01.42\00:25:08.23
The Nature of
Hell. The Nature of Hell.
00:25:08.26\00:25:10.06
And it is published by
00:25:10.09\00:25:11.93
the Evangelical
Alliances Commission on Unity
00:25:11.96\00:25:15.17
and Truth among Evangelicals.
00:25:15.20\00:25:18.08
That title is
"The Nature of Hell."
00:25:18.11\00:25:20.15
The Nature of Hell, okay.
00:25:20.18\00:25:22.58
So some people, you
know, other than evangelists,
00:25:22.61\00:25:24.73
are looking at what has
been the Christians stance
00:25:24.76\00:25:28.02
in many denominations
for many, many years
00:25:28.05\00:25:30.34
and saying there're
some cracks in that armor,
00:25:30.37\00:25:32.33
there are some
holes in that discussion.
00:25:32.36\00:25:34.75
And that's good, that's
a good thing. Yes, it is.
00:25:34.78\00:25:37.34
There has been also another book
00:25:37.37\00:25:38.78
by William Fudge, F.U.D.G.E.
00:25:38.81\00:25:42.80
"A Fire that Consumes."
That book is a wonderful book.
00:25:42.83\00:25:48.91
It is probably the most
clear biblical exposition
00:25:48.94\00:25:56.06
on what happens to
the wicked when they die.
00:25:56.09\00:26:00.00
And he takes
basically the annihilation view.
00:26:00.03\00:26:04.20
That wicked will
not suffer forever
00:26:04.23\00:26:07.05
but they will be
destroyed forever.
00:26:07.08\00:26:11.05
So that's what he says.
00:26:11.08\00:26:12.68
But that book is
really an impressive book.
00:26:12.71\00:26:17.26
Takes all the biblical
passages, the difficult ones.
00:26:17.29\00:26:24.13
Yes. The easy ones. All of them.
00:26:24.16\00:26:26.45
And studies them point by point
00:26:26.48\00:26:29.02
and it's his wonderful book.
00:26:29.05\00:26:31.29
And he's not an Adventist
00:26:31.32\00:26:33.80
but he has done a wonderful
job there. Praise the Lord.
00:26:33.83\00:26:37.10
You know, you would think
that there are so many people
00:26:37.13\00:26:38.82
who have this
idea-- across the border,
00:26:38.85\00:26:42.47
everybody thinks
that you're burnt forever.
00:26:42.50\00:26:44.42
But even in
evangelical centers, it seems,
00:26:44.45\00:26:47.26
that there are
variations in this idea.
00:26:47.29\00:26:50.13
Everybody doesn't buy
the same thing, you know?
00:26:50.16\00:26:52.02
Yes. Yeah.
00:26:52.05\00:26:54.90
Some people in
evangelical circles will say,
00:26:54.93\00:26:57.55
"well, yes, there
is an eternal hell."
00:26:57.58\00:27:00.19
Others will say, "no,
everybody is going to be saved."
00:27:00.22\00:27:03.50
That is a universal
view. Yes, yes, yes.
00:27:03.53\00:27:07.29
God is so good and
he's a so powerful.
00:27:07.32\00:27:09.67
Yes. That is important thing.
00:27:09.70\00:27:11.07
God is so powerful
that His love is so amazing
00:27:11.10\00:27:14.70
that when a person
gets to know God's love
00:27:14.73\00:27:18.47
then he won't have any
other power to resist him.
00:27:18.50\00:27:25.77
Yes. So he's
going to be converted.
00:27:25.80\00:27:27.80
And he's going to love God.
00:27:27.83\00:27:30.12
And so everybody is
going to be saved. Yes, yes.
00:27:30.15\00:27:34.67
Because God is so powerful
and God's love is so amazing.
00:27:34.70\00:27:37.90
So that is the
universalist's view. Yes.
00:27:37.93\00:27:42.33
Others will say no God everybody
is free and if we are free.
00:27:42.36\00:27:47.94
Some can say no, even
through your love. Yes.
00:27:47.97\00:27:51.87
Even though you're amazing
I don't want to trust in you.
00:27:51.90\00:27:56.23
And so they will take the same
position that the Satan takes.
00:27:56.26\00:28:01.22
Yes. And they will say no
00:28:01.25\00:28:04.38
we don't want and so
in this evangelicals think
00:28:04.41\00:28:07.15
that they'll be annihilated.
00:28:07.18\00:28:10.58
And I think that
the traditional view
00:28:10.61\00:28:15.76
of the
evangelical position is that,
00:28:15.79\00:28:17.55
well, the wicked will
be burnt forever. Yes.
00:28:17.58\00:28:20.74
And the rationale behind this
00:28:20.77\00:28:22.98
is that
rejecting God who is love,
00:28:23.01\00:28:26.59
who is so much--
He's so great a sin
00:28:26.62\00:28:32.38
that needs to have
an eternal punishment?
00:28:32.41\00:28:36.80
Yes. Because this
is a big, big sin.
00:28:36.83\00:28:40.02
So that is the
rationale. Rationale, yeah.
00:28:40.05\00:28:42.85
I'm glad, Felix, that
Adventist are not the only ones
00:28:42.88\00:28:45.95
with their ore on
this side of the boat. Yes.
00:28:45.98\00:28:47.97
That they are other
people who are paddling with us.
00:28:48.00\00:28:49.37
Yes. Understanding of the--
00:28:49.40\00:28:52.40
really it's an understanding
of the character of God. It is.
00:28:52.43\00:28:56.82
You know, over and above
00:28:56.85\00:28:58.75
whether the
doctrine is right or wrong,
00:28:58.78\00:29:00.90
is that if you accept
that God burns people forever,
00:29:00.93\00:29:02.91
you're really painting
a picture of an ugly God.
00:29:02.94\00:29:04.94
Yes. A kind of mean God?
00:29:04.97\00:29:06.45
Yes. Yeah. And most--
00:29:06.48\00:29:08.45
many atheists
reject a view of God
00:29:08.48\00:29:13.66
and belief in
God because of hell.
00:29:13.69\00:29:16.18
And many people
don't want to obey a God
00:29:16.21\00:29:22.53
who is vindictive. Yes.
00:29:22.56\00:29:25.63
And then it is
difficult to conceive an idea
00:29:25.66\00:29:28.54
that people is
going to be happy forever
00:29:28.57\00:29:31.63
when they know some friend,
00:29:31.66\00:29:35.33
some loved one who didn't accept
00:29:35.36\00:29:37.70
Jesus is going to burn forever.
00:29:37.73\00:29:39.29
Burning forever.
Does not make any sense.
00:29:39.32\00:29:40.74
So that is a difficult thought,
a difficult thing to believe.
00:29:40.77\00:29:48.22
Yes, yes. So that's what
has caused this struggle.
00:29:48.25\00:29:53.99
This debate. Yeah.
00:29:54.02\00:29:55.39
So when we go back
to the Old Testament
00:29:55.42\00:29:57.23
and almost compare and contrast
00:29:57.26\00:29:59.13
what the Hebrews believed
and the Old Testament Pagans
00:29:59.16\00:30:02.24
believed is it was there any--
of course the Pagans' belief
00:30:02.27\00:30:06.93
run the gamut of their book--
00:30:06.96\00:30:08.33
was there any kind
of correlation between
00:30:08.36\00:30:09.75
what Paganism kind of taught
and what the Hebrews taught
00:30:09.78\00:30:11.99
or are they just
really diametrically
00:30:12.02\00:30:13.92
opposite of each other?
00:30:13.95\00:30:15.35
Well, Hebrews have
a very unique view,
00:30:15.38\00:30:18.87
a very unique world view.
00:30:18.90\00:30:20.27
Yes. But it is true,
00:30:20.30\00:30:24.03
the Pagans have a
lot of different views.
00:30:24.06\00:30:28.97
In fact, some of the time
those views were contradictory.
00:30:29.00\00:30:34.31
Because when the new viewer--
00:30:34.34\00:30:38.00
a new view came
old views will not die.
00:30:38.03\00:30:41.77
So they were even
some contradictory views
00:30:41.80\00:30:44.05
in the same time
in the same place.
00:30:44.08\00:30:46.48
But Pagans have very
different views. Yeah.
00:30:46.51\00:30:50.49
Many of the pagans believe
that death was the end of it.
00:30:50.52\00:30:53.91
Death was not a transition
to a different kind of life.
00:30:55.01\00:31:00.59
A person dies and that was it.
00:31:00.62\00:31:03.60
There was nothing to
look forward to. All right.
00:31:03.63\00:31:08.02
Probably the most ancient
view among Egyptians was that.
00:31:08.05\00:31:11.86
They believed
that only the Pharaoh
00:31:11.89\00:31:13.88
had the possibility
to have an afterlife
00:31:13.91\00:31:17.39
because he was God himself.
00:31:17.42\00:31:19.52
Yes. So only he
had the opportunity--
00:31:19.55\00:31:22.01
Now that little nuance
I did not know. Really?
00:31:22.04\00:31:23.90
I thought that all Egyptians
00:31:23.93\00:31:26.75
thought that
there was a afterlife,
00:31:26.78\00:31:28.15
but only for a Pharaoh.
00:31:28.18\00:31:29.56
He the only one got that--
those cookies, as it were.
00:31:29.59\00:31:31.73
Yes, that was at the beginning.
00:31:31.76\00:31:34.50
But then later on they evolved.
00:31:34.53\00:31:36.06
I see. Okay. Yes.
00:31:36.09\00:31:37.46
And then these view that
there could be an afterlife
00:31:37.49\00:31:41.97
also for other people,
strong people, powerful people.
00:31:42.00\00:31:45.31
Yes, yes, yes.
00:31:45.34\00:31:46.71
And then it widened to
include all the people.
00:31:46.74\00:31:51.57
So, it's, you know,
Egypt has a very long history.
00:31:51.60\00:31:54.57
Yes, yes, yes.
00:31:54.60\00:31:56.23
So they have evolved
with the years. I see.
00:31:56.26\00:31:58.59
So they have a view
of eternal judgment.
00:31:58.62\00:32:02.87
They thought that
when you came to judgment
00:32:02.90\00:32:05.26
your heart was going to
be weighed against a feather.
00:32:05.29\00:32:10.18
And if your
heart was heavy--Yes.
00:32:10.21\00:32:13.54
And was heavier than the feather
00:32:13.57\00:32:16.06
then you were
going to be condemned.
00:32:16.09\00:32:18.22
And then there was mud,
00:32:18.25\00:32:19.91
there a beast
with a crocodile head
00:32:19.94\00:32:21.80
that it was going
to be-- to destroy you.
00:32:21.83\00:32:27.47
So they thought about
final judgment as well.
00:32:27.50\00:32:34.23
So there were many views. Yes.
00:32:34.26\00:32:35.93
Other views were different.
00:32:35.96\00:32:37.61
Other views, for
example, Babylon and some Greek,
00:32:37.64\00:32:42.01
some Greek views
thought that, yes,
00:32:42.04\00:32:44.72
death was a transition
to a different kind of life.
00:32:44.75\00:32:48.90
But it was not a full
life but a kind of half life
00:32:48.93\00:32:52.62
in which people
where like just there lying
00:32:52.65\00:33:00.33
without anything
to do, no real life.
00:33:00.36\00:33:05.81
Homer in the Illiad
talks about this. Yes.
00:33:05.84\00:33:08.79
And but this
afterlife is not real full life.
00:33:08.82\00:33:14.06
It's a kind of
half life. It's not--
00:33:14.09\00:33:18.38
they don't have
activities and they are like
00:33:18.41\00:33:24.21
sleeping in some
sense, half life.
00:33:24.24\00:33:28.59
That's what they
believed. And then Plato came.
00:33:28.62\00:33:31.89
And Plato brought this
idea about the soul is eternal
00:33:31.92\00:33:36.51
and then when the people-- a
person dies soul is delivered,
00:33:36.54\00:33:43.29
released from the body
and goes to a place of delight
00:33:43.32\00:33:48.00
if he was virtuous.
00:33:48.03\00:33:49.40
Yes. A place of
pleasure and delight.
00:33:49.43\00:33:51.38
If he was bad, wicked, he
was going to be to Tartarus.
00:33:51.41\00:33:55.83
So but soul is eternal.
00:33:55.86\00:33:58.05
So from there came basically
00:33:58.08\00:34:00.59
most of this ideas of eternal
punishment, eternal delight.
00:34:00.62\00:34:07.17
Plato and older
Pagan views as well.
00:34:07.20\00:34:09.87
Yes, Felix, I want you to
reflect on something for me
00:34:09.90\00:34:12.57
because it occurs to me that--
00:34:12.60\00:34:15.92
when you start
with a bad premise.
00:34:15.95\00:34:19.06
When your
foundation is faulty or shaky
00:34:19.09\00:34:21.68
then everything you build
00:34:21.71\00:34:23.08
on top of that is
going to be askew,
00:34:23.11\00:34:25.33
it's gonna be wrong. Yes.
00:34:25.36\00:34:26.73
If you start with the idea
00:34:26.76\00:34:28.18
that man at
birth, or shortly before,
00:34:28.21\00:34:31.70
is given a soul and
that soul is immortal
00:34:31.73\00:34:35.30
then you've got a problem
00:34:35.33\00:34:37.27
because at death you got to find
something to do with that soul,
00:34:37.30\00:34:40.50
because it never dies.
00:34:40.53\00:34:41.90
Yes. Now you've got to develop
a whole host of theology.
00:34:41.93\00:34:44.90
Yes. That comes
from your basic mistake.
00:34:44.93\00:34:48.04
You've started out off
with a wrong foundation.
00:34:48.07\00:34:50.37
So, now you've got to build
00:34:50.40\00:34:51.77
a structure on
that wrong foundation
00:34:51.80\00:34:53.17
and if you're
foundation is crooked
00:34:53.20\00:34:54.80
then your structure is gonna
be kind of leaning, you know.
00:34:54.83\00:34:56.68
Of course. So now I
got this eternal soul.
00:34:56.71\00:35:00.13
At death I got to
put him some place. Yes.
00:35:00.16\00:35:02.26
So he's got to
either be in heaven forever
00:35:02.29\00:35:04.50
or he's got to burn forever
00:35:04.53\00:35:06.27
because I got to do
something with that,
00:35:06.30\00:35:07.92
he doesn't die,
according to my theology.
00:35:07.95\00:35:09.77
So I got all of
these kind of problems.
00:35:09.80\00:35:11.24
And so it seems
like when you start
00:35:11.27\00:35:13.23
with that foundation that's
wrong then you got to build
00:35:13.26\00:35:16.39
a superstructure
that is also wrong.
00:35:16.42\00:35:18.00
Yes. The beginning point
is very important, as you say.
00:35:18.03\00:35:23.15
I think we should begin
by understanding who God is.
00:35:23.18\00:35:27.11
Yes. God is the
only one who is eternal.
00:35:27.14\00:35:31.63
God is the only one who
is creator. So he created.
00:35:31.66\00:35:36.56
So when he created man,
00:35:36.59\00:35:41.65
he didn't bring this eternal
entity into the body of man.
00:35:41.68\00:35:47.74
He created the whole thing.
00:35:47.77\00:35:49.76
Yes. That what the Bible says.
00:35:49.79\00:35:51.41
And probably
should be good for us
00:35:51.44\00:35:52.81
to read what that
passage says in Genesis 2.
00:35:52.84\00:35:56.73
Genesis 2:7 would be
a place to study there
00:35:56.76\00:36:04.72
because that is a
very important passage.
00:36:04.75\00:36:07.38
Yeah, I knew I was having
a college professor today.
00:36:11.35\00:36:14.13
So I have brought my big
one. That's good. That's good.
00:36:14.16\00:36:17.30
I brought a big one, too. Okay.
00:36:17.33\00:36:20.75
So this is-- Genesis 2:7 says,
00:36:20.78\00:36:24.11
"And the Lord God formed
man of the dust of the ground,
00:36:24.14\00:36:30.74
and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life
00:36:30.77\00:36:35.11
and man became a
living being." Yes.
00:36:35.14\00:36:39.44
Now this
expression, "living being,"
00:36:39.47\00:36:42.47
in the original language
is literally a living-soul.
00:36:42.50\00:36:47.10
So soul is not
something eternal.
00:36:47.13\00:36:49.94
It's something that God creates
00:36:49.97\00:36:51.71
out of the breath of life and
out of the dust of the earth.
00:36:51.74\00:36:56.21
So that is the
beginning of the soul.
00:36:56.24\00:36:59.00
Plato believed that
the soul was eternal,
00:36:59.03\00:37:01.95
just like the
universe is eternal.
00:37:01.98\00:37:04.64
But the Bible has a
different view. Yes.
00:37:04.67\00:37:06.73
And that starting
point is very important.
00:37:06.76\00:37:09.77
So in the Bible, God
is the creator of life.
00:37:09.80\00:37:13.94
God is eternal, so life is good.
00:37:13.97\00:37:19.91
Yes. The body is good.
00:37:19.94\00:37:22.14
Yeah. And the good
thing is not to die.
00:37:22.17\00:37:24.74
The good thing is
to be living. Yes, yes.
00:37:24.77\00:37:26.74
And for Plato it
was the other way.
00:37:26.77\00:37:29.63
For Plato the body is the jail.
00:37:29.66\00:37:33.19
Do you know, you are
prisoner in this body?
00:37:33.22\00:37:37.92
Oh, jail. Yes, yes, yes.
00:37:37.95\00:37:39.58
Sorry, yes. You are a
prisoner in this body.
00:37:39.61\00:37:42.18
And then the best
thing that happens--
00:37:42.21\00:37:45.03
that may happen to you is
to be released from this place.
00:37:45.06\00:37:47.80
I see. Body is not good.
00:37:47.83\00:37:50.72
Matter is not good.
For God, life is good. Yes.
00:37:50.75\00:37:54.93
So these are completely
different way of seeing things
00:37:54.96\00:37:58.34
between God and the Bible.
00:37:58.37\00:38:01.77
So that Genesis 2:7 is not only
00:38:01.80\00:38:03.95
description of what happened.
00:38:03.98\00:38:05.97
Its, Felix, more of-- it's
a recipe for what happened.
00:38:06.00\00:38:09.26
Yeah, it was-- we
combine A with B we get C.
00:38:09.29\00:38:12.75
Yes. So it's was a description,
00:38:12.78\00:38:14.15
but also a recipe for
what when on in creation.
00:38:14.18\00:38:16.78
Correct. Yes.
00:38:16.81\00:38:18.56
So what he's
saying is that soul--
00:38:18.59\00:38:21.78
the soul is an entity that came
to being out of two materials.
00:38:21.81\00:38:28.12
Yes. The breath of life
and the dust of the earth.
00:38:28.15\00:38:34.02
Praise the God. So
soul is a composite thing.
00:38:34.05\00:38:36.69
Yeah, I like
that. It's composite.
00:38:36.72\00:38:38.09
Yeah. It's like a cake.
00:38:38.12\00:38:39.49
You put the ingredients
together, you got cake.
00:38:39.52\00:38:40.89
If you don't put them together,
00:38:40.92\00:38:42.29
you don't have cake. Yeah, so.
00:38:42.32\00:38:43.93
And you divide them. Yes.
00:38:43.96\00:38:45.59
There's no more
cake, which is as I think,
00:38:45.62\00:38:48.13
you know-- I like cakes.
00:38:48.16\00:38:52.48
Me too.
00:38:52.51\00:38:54.52
And you know, many
people think that--
00:38:54.55\00:38:56.88
just to--I wanted
to read something here
00:38:56.91\00:39:00.42
because many people think
that all the Pagans believe
00:39:00.45\00:39:02.82
that the soul was eternal.
00:39:02.85\00:39:07.44
But archeologists
have found that only 10%,
00:39:07.47\00:39:11.92
at most 10%, of the
tombs have any indication
00:39:11.95\00:39:16.82
that people believe
that the soul was eternal.
00:39:16.85\00:39:19.76
Most of the tombs, they
believe this was the end.
00:39:19.79\00:39:23.89
Let me show you
some-- what it says.
00:39:23.92\00:39:25.49
For example, a
very common epitaph was,
00:39:25.52\00:39:30.62
"I was not, I was, I
am not, I don't care."
00:39:30.65\00:39:36.60
That was most common.
00:39:36.63\00:39:38.85
Yeah. That was the most common--
00:39:38.88\00:39:40.25
so common that it was
just put in an abbreviation.
00:39:40.28\00:39:44.44
It was just, "N.F.N.S.N.C."
00:39:44.47\00:39:48.66
Just the whole
expression, abbreviation.
00:39:48.69\00:39:52.70
Because most of the
people believed that.
00:39:52.73\00:39:54.63
Others although
said, for example.
00:39:54.66\00:39:56.17
Say that again.
I just like that.
00:39:56.20\00:39:58.70
I was not. I was not.
00:39:58.73\00:40:00.10
I was. I was.
00:40:00.13\00:40:01.76
I am not. I am not.
00:40:01.79\00:40:03.74
I don't care. I
don't care. Incredible.
00:40:03.77\00:40:07.71
That's what-- and
then there's another one.
00:40:07.74\00:40:10.35
There's another
one, very common.
00:40:10.38\00:40:11.77
It says, "We are
mortals, not immortals."
00:40:11.80\00:40:16.54
There's another
one, "When life ends,
00:40:16.57\00:40:20.32
all things perish
and turn to nothing."
00:40:20.35\00:40:24.72
There's another one,
"We are and we're nothing,
00:40:24.75\00:40:28.00
look rather how
swiftly we mortals pass
00:40:28.03\00:40:31.87
from nothing to nothing."
00:40:31.90\00:40:34.52
Those are epitaphs.
00:40:34.55\00:40:36.01
These were the
more common epitaphs.
00:40:36.04\00:40:38.05
Other ones, "I was nothing,
00:40:38.08\00:40:39.75
I am nothing and you who now
live, eat, drink, play and come"
00:40:39.78\00:40:46.05
Wow. So, these were
the epitaphs. Yes, yes.
00:40:46.08\00:40:48.08
So, this view that--
that the soul is eternal
00:40:48.11\00:40:51.69
was not a very
common view in ancient time.
00:40:51.72\00:40:54.36
It became very
common with Plato. Yes. Yes.
00:40:54.39\00:40:57.33
It's interesting because you got
some of the major civilizations,
00:40:57.36\00:40:59.88
espoused this. so, you
think all of them did. No.
00:40:59.91\00:41:03.32
But, you know, you
got Egypt, you got Greece,
00:41:03.35\00:41:05.40
you got Roam who all
fed off of each other
00:41:05.43\00:41:07.75
either logically and
culturally. Yes. Yes.
00:41:07.78\00:41:09.69
And became the dominant but--
00:41:09.72\00:41:11.63
it seems like most of
the people didn't buy it.
00:41:11.66\00:41:13.48
That's very, very interesting.
00:41:13.51\00:41:14.88
Even Plato in the Phaedo,
which is one of the books--
00:41:14.91\00:41:19.48
very important
books he wrote. Oh yes.
00:41:19.51\00:41:21.08
He acknowledges
that most of the people
00:41:21.11\00:41:22.71
don't believe that the
soul survives death. Yes.
00:41:22.74\00:41:27.31
He acknowledges that. Yeah.
00:41:27.34\00:41:28.71
But anyway, he was so smart
00:41:28.74\00:41:32.48
and he spoke too well
and he wrote very well.
00:41:32.51\00:41:34.86
He was a very brilliant guy.
00:41:34.89\00:41:37.95
So his views were very,
very important in ancient times.
00:41:37.98\00:41:41.26
And in the end they won
the day. That's what happened.
00:41:41.29\00:41:44.47
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Indeed.
00:41:44.50\00:41:46.62
Very, very interesting.
Now, that I did not know.
00:41:46.65\00:41:48.36
That's something new
that I did not know before.
00:41:48.39\00:41:52.21
So, it's very interesting--
00:41:52.24\00:41:53.61
but I think its very important
that we understand that,
00:41:53.64\00:41:57.13
that death is that.
00:41:57.16\00:41:58.85
Death--for God, death is
the opposite of life. Yes. Yes.
00:41:58.88\00:42:03.47
And then we need to find
out that then death is the--
00:42:03.50\00:42:11.44
if you go to the bible
you are going to find that--
00:42:11.47\00:42:14.17
you're going to have that
God is--has life in itself.
00:42:14.20\00:42:18.01
Then you have humans here,
00:42:18.04\00:42:20.03
they have life but this
life is derived from God. Yes.
00:42:20.06\00:42:24.14
In that different
level and then comes nothing,
00:42:24.17\00:42:28.03
which is there. Yes.
00:42:28.06\00:42:29.43
The same is--God is
pure, humans are clean
00:42:29.46\00:42:35.39
if they are doing
what God want's them to do.
00:42:35.42\00:42:38.41
Death is unclean.
00:42:38.44\00:42:41.03
So you have this idea that death
00:42:41.06\00:42:43.52
is the opposite
of life. Yes. Yes.
00:42:43.55\00:42:46.05
And this is very important
because many people think
00:42:46.08\00:42:48.04
that if you want
to be closer to God,
00:42:48.07\00:42:49.94
you need to be
dead to go to heaven.
00:42:49.97\00:42:53.12
Yes. Yes. Yes. But
that is the opposite.
00:42:53.15\00:42:55.67
God invented life
and life is a place
00:42:55.70\00:43:01.12
where God
communes with His people.
00:43:01.15\00:43:04.14
So, that's why He's
going to resurrect them.
00:43:04.17\00:43:06.28
Yes. Yes. Yes. You
know, when you look at it--
00:43:06.31\00:43:08.11
and I'll put it this
way, God put much more work
00:43:08.14\00:43:11.60
into life than He did
into death. Of course.
00:43:11.63\00:43:15.11
Well, He didn't
put any work in death.
00:43:15.14\00:43:16.51
Right, He didn't put
any work in death at all.
00:43:16.54\00:43:17.91
There is much more
emphasis and much more work
00:43:17.94\00:43:19.31
into life and continuing life
and going on than into death.
00:43:19.34\00:43:22.70
And it's funny because,
00:43:22.73\00:43:24.14
we as humans get so
caught up with death
00:43:24.17\00:43:26.26
and so afraid of it and
super charged with death.
00:43:26.29\00:43:29.30
And God has put
much more emphasis
00:43:29.33\00:43:31.95
and work on life and living
and serving, that kind of thing.
00:43:31.98\00:43:35.31
And, you know, very interesting
00:43:35.34\00:43:36.71
many of the righteous
people in the Old Testament,
00:43:36.74\00:43:40.18
when they were afraid of
dying and they will pray to God.
00:43:40.21\00:43:45.57
And you have a lot
of these in the Psalms.
00:43:45.60\00:43:48.93
And the main
argument that they say,
00:43:48.96\00:43:50.99
"God, save me from death."
00:43:51.02\00:43:52.75
The main argument is
God, save me from death
00:43:52.78\00:43:55.65
because in death
nobody praises you.
00:43:55.68\00:43:58.47
Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:43:58.50\00:43:59.87
You want to praise God.
00:43:59.90\00:44:01.36
You want to commune with
God, you need to be alive.
00:44:01.39\00:44:03.67
Yes. Yes. I like that.
00:44:03.70\00:44:05.07
Because in death,
you cannot praise God.
00:44:05.10\00:44:07.85
So, it's not the
fear of death, per se,
00:44:07.88\00:44:09.48
it's just that I
cannot serve you,
00:44:09.52\00:44:10.89
I cannot praise
you in death. Yes.
00:44:10.92\00:44:12.29
And while I am
alive I can do that. Yes.
00:44:12.32\00:44:14.04
So then, also, it is encumbered
upon me, while I am alive,
00:44:14.07\00:44:17.30
to praise you because
I cannot when I am dead.
00:44:17.33\00:44:19.83
Yes. Yes. You
know life is wonderful.
00:44:19.86\00:44:22.00
We need to enjoy it. Yes.
00:44:22.03\00:44:23.78
And we don't need to be
looking for something later on
00:44:23.81\00:44:28.48
when you should
be enjoying this.
00:44:28.51\00:44:30.15
You are right. Right.
00:44:30.18\00:44:31.55
Otherwise, you are robbed from
this time and then you think
00:44:31.58\00:44:34.67
you're going to
receive something later on.
00:44:34.70\00:44:36.07
Right, you get nothing.
00:44:36.10\00:44:37.47
Yes. So, it's not a good idea.
00:44:37.50\00:44:40.12
Like that a lot.
That is wonderful.
00:44:40.15\00:44:43.71
We've talked about death
00:44:43.74\00:44:46.40
and of course the other
part of that same coin is hell.
00:44:46.43\00:44:51.49
You die and then this
series of things happen.
00:44:51.52\00:44:55.59
My question would be,
since this idea of death
00:44:55.62\00:44:59.96
that many of us thought was
kind of universal, it's not so,
00:44:59.99\00:45:03.63
what about ancient ideas
of hell and the after life?
00:45:03.66\00:45:08.07
Well, there were some
ideas that hell was a place
00:45:08.10\00:45:13.15
where people were
going to suffer a lot
00:45:13.18\00:45:16.90
and some of
them came from Egypt.
00:45:16.93\00:45:19.39
You know, Egypt was
evolving and then came this idea
00:45:19.42\00:45:25.13
that the people will suffer
a different kind of torments,
00:45:25.16\00:45:30.39
punishments if they didn't obey
00:45:30.42\00:45:33.62
or worship or
serve the right Gods.
00:45:33.65\00:45:37.19
You have to serve the right God
00:45:37.22\00:45:39.78
in order to have good
time in the afterlife.
00:45:39.81\00:45:43.85
So, if they didn't
serve the right Gods
00:45:43.88\00:45:46.65
then they will go
through these punishments.
00:45:46.68\00:45:51.93
By the time of Jesus
there were many sectors
00:45:51.96\00:45:57.73
in Jewish people as well
as in the work of Roman world
00:45:57.76\00:46:04.23
that there were these torments
00:46:04.26\00:46:07.05
that people would
go if they were wicked.
00:46:07.08\00:46:10.70
So it was little by
little but it was not
00:46:10.73\00:46:14.15
a universal
belief outside the bible.
00:46:14.18\00:46:18.56
Some people believe in it,
00:46:18.59\00:46:19.96
other didn't
believe in it. Yes. Yes.
00:46:19.99\00:46:21.57
Stoics, they didn't
believe in after life
00:46:21.60\00:46:26.54
and others they didn't
believe in this afterlife too.
00:46:26.57\00:46:31.34
So, this hell view developed
little by little in many
00:46:31.37\00:46:37.35
like Roman world and other pagan
views because even Babylon,
00:46:37.38\00:46:41.73
they didn't
believe in this hell.
00:46:41.76\00:46:45.37
People--in the world of the
dead all the people were equal.
00:46:45.40\00:46:51.42
They didn't want
to-- they didn't describe
00:46:54.06\00:46:58.50
the world of the
dead as a enticing,
00:46:58.53\00:47:01.80
interesting world to go
or to enjoy or to dread, no.
00:47:01.83\00:47:09.14
So, this work--
these things came later on
00:47:09.17\00:47:12.22
through Plato and Greek
ideas and other pagan ideas,
00:47:12.25\00:47:16.27
but developed little
by little. I see. I see.
00:47:16.30\00:47:19.27
I want-- we're coming down
00:47:19.30\00:47:20.67
towards the close
of our first hour,
00:47:20.70\00:47:23.36
got a few more minutes left.
00:47:23.39\00:47:24.76
But I want to, sort
of, tease at somethings
00:47:24.79\00:47:26.16
that I want us to, sort
of, look at in the second half.
00:47:26.19\00:47:28.52
One is some of those
difficult passages because,
00:47:28.55\00:47:30.42
you know, I remember very early
00:47:30.45\00:47:32.34
on in my mission,
people will toss things out
00:47:32.37\00:47:34.61
at you particularly in
the Book of Revelation.
00:47:34.64\00:47:37.09
That seemed to say, you
know, you're gonna burn forever.
00:47:37.12\00:47:41.40
And they would sort
of lean on these passages
00:47:41.43\00:47:44.20
and scare people
with these passages.
00:47:44.23\00:47:46.14
One other things that, sort of,
00:47:46.17\00:47:48.23
rocked my mother
back on her heel,
00:47:48.26\00:47:50.12
because she was a
Methodist for many, many years.
00:47:50.15\00:47:52.74
And she went to
church one Sunday
00:47:52.77\00:47:54.38
and heard this sermon
00:47:54.41\00:47:55.78
and I mean the pastor
really laid it on, man.
00:47:55.81\00:47:57.48
He just--he had a
burning-- oh, you know,
00:47:57.51\00:47:59.51
he had it like a barbeque with
barbeque sauce and whole thing
00:47:59.54\00:48:03.59
you know, you just rolling
in and burning in hell forever.
00:48:03.62\00:48:06.94
And she just didn't--
00:48:06.97\00:48:09.42
it just didn't set well
with her. It just didn't.
00:48:09.45\00:48:12.29
And that began
to put in her mind
00:48:12.32\00:48:15.74
and doubts about that faith.
00:48:15.77\00:48:18.36
And of course when she--I joined
the Adventist church as a child
00:48:18.39\00:48:21.09
and was going to church
on Sabbath and she ask me--
00:48:21.12\00:48:24.22
and I was pretty young.
00:48:24.25\00:48:26.72
You know, what
do you guys believe?
00:48:26.75\00:48:28.12
'Cause I was
going with the church
00:48:28.15\00:48:29.52
of the people across the street.
00:48:29.55\00:48:30.92
And she said, as long
as you're going to church
00:48:30.95\00:48:32.32
and doing this, I
am not gonna stop you.
00:48:32.35\00:48:33.72
It's not for me
but it's okay for you.
00:48:33.75\00:48:35.12
So I was baptized at 10.
00:48:35.15\00:48:36.61
Later on I baptized my
mom and baptized my dad
00:48:36.64\00:48:39.05
and baptized my
sister, you know.
00:48:39.08\00:48:41.32
But one of the things that
really sort of set her back
00:48:41.35\00:48:43.76
was this hell thing
just-- I can't subscribes that
00:48:43.79\00:48:49.35
and if you got something better
00:48:49.38\00:48:50.75
I am gonna with you
because I don't like this.
00:48:50.78\00:48:54.10
And I didn't know
that much at that time.
00:48:54.13\00:48:56.91
But I knew that
we didn't burn always
00:48:56.94\00:49:01.23
because I would listen
to sermons in church. Yes.
00:49:01.26\00:49:03.41
And so I told
her, that's not right.
00:49:03.44\00:49:04.90
Well, what is right?
00:49:04.93\00:49:06.30
I don't know but
that's not right.
00:49:06.33\00:49:07.70
You know, that kind of thing.
And so she kind of like that.
00:49:07.73\00:49:09.44
Yes, and I think--those
are verses that Jesus speaks
00:49:09.47\00:49:13.11
all of them about end and hell
00:49:13.14\00:49:16.27
and the worm that doesn't die,
00:49:16.30\00:49:20.00
and the fire
that is not quenched.
00:49:20.03\00:49:23.50
And quenched,
yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:49:23.53\00:49:25.06
And then, we when you
also to answer those passages
00:49:25.09\00:49:27.80
which speak about-- for example,
00:49:27.83\00:49:29.71
when Elijah went and this
kid had died. Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:49:29.74\00:49:34.98
And then he heals him.
The spirit came back into him.
00:49:35.01\00:49:41.07
How do we
understand that? Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:49:41.10\00:49:42.95
Or this idea of
release the ghost.
00:49:42.98\00:49:45.04
Or when Rachel was dying
she was releasing the spirit,
00:49:45.07\00:49:51.36
how do we
understand those passages?
00:49:51.39\00:49:53.68
So, we need to
understand those too.
00:49:53.71\00:49:55.08
Indeed. So, in a second
half, we're gonna rally tackle
00:49:55.11\00:49:56.79
some of that stuff because
you may have been assaulted
00:49:56.82\00:49:59.95
with some of those passages
as I have been over the years.
00:49:59.98\00:50:03.01
I am sure Felix has also.
00:50:03.04\00:50:04.82
And if you talked about hell,
someone has grabbed something
00:50:04.85\00:50:08.03
from revelation or something
from some place that say,
00:50:08.06\00:50:09.93
"Well, this says you
are gonna burn forever."
00:50:09.96\00:50:11.51
So, we want to wrestle
with some of those things.
00:50:11.54\00:50:13.32
So, now the school really
starts, this was kindergarten.
00:50:13.35\00:50:17.31
Now, we're moving
out to grad school
00:50:17.34\00:50:19.13
because we're gonna loot at some
00:50:19.16\00:50:20.53
of those passages
in the second half.
00:50:20.56\00:50:21.93
Now, something I've not done.
00:50:21.96\00:50:23.33
I've been remiss in not doing.
00:50:23.36\00:50:24.73
I want to pull out our
free offer for the evening.
00:50:24.76\00:50:26.90
This is a little book
written by Danny Shelton,
00:50:26.93\00:50:30.63
"Does God Love Sinners Forever-
00:50:30.66\00:50:33.75
Is there a hell?
How long will it burn?"
00:50:33.78\00:50:36.55
We've offered this before
but if you not gotten one,
00:50:36.58\00:50:38.81
this is one of the better little
books that has been written.
00:50:38.84\00:50:42.26
Danny writes in a very
simple user-friendly style.
00:50:42.29\00:50:46.82
Sometimes we can
be a little technical
00:50:46.85\00:50:48.66
with some of these things
and Danny does not do that.
00:50:48.69\00:50:51.94
This is written so
that anybody can understand
00:50:51.97\00:50:54.00
and everybody can understand.
00:50:54.03\00:50:55.46
So, it is our free
offer for the evening.
00:50:55.49\00:50:57.34
So, if you get the CD or
the DVD of this particular show,
00:50:57.37\00:51:00.66
along with this book this
really ought to do it for you.
00:51:00.69\00:51:03.72
If you want to
get it, very simple,
00:51:03.75\00:51:05.30
call us (618) 627-4651.
00:51:05.33\00:51:08.47
That number again, (618)--
I'll slow it down, 627-4651.
00:51:08.50\00:51:13.69
Or email us at
freeoffer@3abn.org
00:51:13.72\00:51:21.06
and we'll send this out to you.
00:51:21.09\00:51:23.09
Good little book,
good little something
00:51:23.12\00:51:24.81
to have in your library,
00:51:24.84\00:51:26.21
you can share it.
00:51:26.24\00:51:27.61
Not a long read,
it is just about--
00:51:27.64\00:51:29.75
I am looking at 15 or 16 pages.
00:51:29.78\00:51:32.96
Has some pictures, so,
it's not just all writing.
00:51:32.99\00:51:35.31
Really well done.
00:51:35.34\00:51:37.00
Really easy to
understand and will give you
00:51:37.03\00:51:39.27
a good
foundation for this subject.
00:51:39.30\00:51:41.31
Which as we said at
the top of the show,
00:51:41.34\00:51:42.84
it has really been sort
of ripped apart and cause
00:51:42.87\00:51:46.85
a lot of fear and consignation
in the minds of people.
00:51:46.88\00:51:52.13
Our instructor this
evening is Felix Cortez.
00:51:52.16\00:51:54.70
He is a professor of
New Testament theology
00:51:54.73\00:51:56.96
at Montemorelos University
or the University Montemorelos,
00:51:56.99\00:52:01.37
I just like saying that. Yes.
00:52:01.40\00:52:03.93
Yes, it's a long term.
00:52:03.96\00:52:05.33
So-- and we're
talking about death and hell.
00:52:05.36\00:52:07.25
Again, two very,
very important subjects,
00:52:07.28\00:52:10.12
'so shall you live, so shall
you die' and "live on or not.'
00:52:10.15\00:52:14.44
So, we're
answering those questions
00:52:14.47\00:52:15.84
and we're getting
a good foundation.
00:52:15.87\00:52:17.24
And as I said
in the second half,
00:52:17.27\00:52:18.69
we're gonna take a
look at some of those
00:52:18.72\00:52:20.38
seemingly
difficult text to interpret.
00:52:20.41\00:52:22.90
We're gonna try to
deal with those also.
00:52:22.93\00:52:25.91
Well, I think this is
going to be our very good moment
00:52:25.94\00:52:29.41
that we're going to have. Yes.
00:52:29.44\00:52:30.81
I agree with you
and again thank you
00:52:30.84\00:52:32.57
for coming from such a long way.
00:52:32.60\00:52:34.29
It's my pleasure. It's
been a pleasure for us.
00:52:34.32\00:52:35.98
Now, a couple of things
I want to just talk about.
00:52:36.01\00:52:38.64
Let's just sort of dip our toe
into water, just a little bit.
00:52:38.67\00:52:42.46
Did the ideas of hell in
Old Testament times and death
00:52:42.49\00:52:47.78
and hell differ much as we
move into the New Testament?
00:52:47.81\00:52:50.65
Of course, the children
of Israel were surrounded
00:52:50.68\00:52:53.20
by different groups of people.
00:52:53.23\00:52:54.60
You have philistines
and other kind of people
00:52:54.63\00:52:56.02
they are dealing with,
were those ideas very different
00:52:56.05\00:52:59.57
from the things that the
Egyptians who they had left
00:52:59.60\00:53:02.72
as far as what's gonna happen?
00:53:02.75\00:53:04.44
Do they differ very greatly?
00:53:04.47\00:53:06.10
Well, the context,
the context of Israel,
00:53:06.13\00:53:09.08
yes, changed.
00:53:09.11\00:53:10.96
The Old Testament
has these Canaanites,
00:53:10.99\00:53:14.63
Philistines that had
different views on afterlife.
00:53:14.66\00:53:19.01
But the New Testament has
as its main background context
00:53:19.04\00:53:25.38
that
Greco-Roman world. Yes. Yes.
00:53:25.41\00:53:27.21
And that is a
very different context.
00:53:27.24\00:53:31.07
By the time the New
Testament is written,
00:53:31.10\00:53:34.10
Greco-Romans have
been in the land if Israel
00:53:34.13\00:53:36.92
for more than one or
two centuries. Yes. Yes.
00:53:36.95\00:53:40.07
So the ideas of Plato and
others have been very important.
00:53:40.10\00:53:45.50
In fact we have
Jewish philosophers
00:53:45.53\00:53:48.24
who just take the ideas of Plato
00:53:48.27\00:53:51.96
and mixed it with
the Old Testament.
00:53:51.99\00:53:54.34
And you have a very
well integrated view
00:53:54.37\00:53:59.18
of like Roman philosophy
with the Old Testament. Yeah.
00:53:59.21\00:54:02.79
So this is the context in which
in New Testament is written.
00:54:02.82\00:54:06.00
Yes. Yes.
00:54:06.03\00:54:07.40
Now, the challenges of
course-- most of the challenges,
00:54:07.43\00:54:10.37
biblically, comes from
New Testament time. Of course.
00:54:10.40\00:54:12.73
And the texts
that people tend to
00:54:12.76\00:54:15.26
want to assault us with
are New Testament texts.
00:54:15.29\00:54:18.63
All of them. Yes, New
Testament is a problem.
00:54:18.66\00:54:20.18
Nobody going back
to the Old Testament
00:54:20.21\00:54:22.13
to get stuff on hell and death.
00:54:22.16\00:54:24.01
It's all New Testament stuff.
00:54:24.04\00:54:25.93
So, it's really-- the
challenge is how they wrote
00:54:25.96\00:54:30.06
and what they
put down as apposed
00:54:30.09\00:54:31.78
to really what they thought.
00:54:31.81\00:54:33.18
It's interpreting always
in the manner of the writer
00:54:33.21\00:54:35.18
to get to correct
understanding, isn't it? Yes.
00:54:35.21\00:54:37.46
It is. So, we need to
understand this context
00:54:37.49\00:54:39.63
and what the
author is trying to say.
00:54:39.66\00:54:41.97
But I would say that it is
very clear in the New Testament
00:54:42.00\00:54:45.71
that they have a-- they
don't have a platonic view.
00:54:45.74\00:54:49.47
They have a different view.
00:54:49.50\00:54:50.87
The view of the New Testament,
00:54:50.90\00:54:52.48
even though written
at different context,
00:54:52.51\00:54:54.37
is the same view
of the Old Testament.
00:54:54.40\00:54:56.72
The idea of man as a composite
being--a composite being.
00:54:56.75\00:55:01.31
The idea of man as
not inherently eternal.
00:55:01.34\00:55:05.44
Man as creative
and death as the end
00:55:05.47\00:55:08.98
but resurrection as
the solution to death
00:55:09.01\00:55:14.44
then that is the same
from the Old Testament.
00:55:14.47\00:55:16.79
So we have the
same train if thought
00:55:16.82\00:55:20.94
from the Old
Testament to the New Testament.
00:55:20.97\00:55:22.92
Praise the Lord.
00:55:22.95\00:55:24.32
I want you, in our
closing minute here,
00:55:24.35\00:55:25.72
to give me a blanket
statement because so many times,
00:55:25.75\00:55:29.24
in fact, when I first
began to do evangelism,
00:55:29.27\00:55:32.09
you know, we have pastors come
and so much of their defense,
00:55:32.12\00:55:35.59
their apologetic
for their believe
00:55:35.62\00:55:36.99
came from the
Book of Revelation.
00:55:37.02\00:55:39.40
When you see terms
like 'Rising ages unto ages'
00:55:39.43\00:55:44.15
or 'For Ever and
Ever' coming out of a book
00:55:44.18\00:55:46.94
which is so--it's so--
what's the word I want.
00:55:46.97\00:55:50.77
It's--you know, you
dealing with literal things
00:55:50.80\00:55:53.46
and then you dealing with things
that are apocalyptic things,
00:55:53.49\00:55:56.23
like beast talking, countries
rising out of the ocean.
00:55:56.26\00:55:58.98
The fact that you
cannot take that literally--
00:55:59.01\00:56:01.58
so, talk to me a little
bit about trying to develop
00:56:01.61\00:56:03.85
a doctrine of hell
from a book that is not
00:56:03.88\00:56:07.36
always saying what it is saying.
00:56:07.39\00:56:08.86
Yeah. Well, yes.
00:56:08.89\00:56:10.63
Revelation, of
course is a very--
00:56:10.66\00:56:14.20
it has a lot of
imagery and it uses a lot of--
00:56:14.23\00:56:17.87
you have dragons
there, you have horses
00:56:17.90\00:56:20.98
and you have death impersonated.
00:56:21.01\00:56:23.82
And you have angels and
mountains and many things.
00:56:23.85\00:56:29.73
All of it is imagery. Yes.
00:56:29.76\00:56:32.80
But the problem is that we
don't understand that bible
00:56:32.83\00:56:35.86
as the original
readers could have understood.
00:56:35.89\00:56:39.07
Because they
knew the Old Testament
00:56:39.10\00:56:41.22
and when they hear these
ideas of burning forever,
00:56:41.25\00:56:46.44
a fire that burn forever,
00:56:46.47\00:56:48.88
the cloud of
their torment or their--
00:56:48.91\00:56:52.15
The smoke of the torment--
00:56:52.18\00:56:53.55
The smoke of the
torment ascends forever.
00:56:53.58\00:56:55.16
Yes. Yes. They
have no rest, for die--
00:56:55.19\00:56:56.95
Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:56:56.98\00:56:58.35
They don't think as we think,
they immediately remember Eden.
00:56:58.38\00:57:02.02
They immediately
remember Isaiah 34.
00:57:02.05\00:57:05.46
So, they think--
the original readers,
00:57:05.49\00:57:08.01
they would go to
the Old Testament
00:57:08.04\00:57:09.81
and we go to the
Greece or Roman thinking.
00:57:09.84\00:57:12.08
Right. Right. They
went to the Old Testament.
00:57:12.11\00:57:13.74
I see. I see. So,
it's very different.
00:57:13.77\00:57:15.79
And when you read this
we are filled with the fear.
00:57:15.82\00:57:23.79
Yes. And wrath.
They know, wrath.
00:57:23.82\00:57:25.64
They were filled with
hope because the imagery
00:57:25.67\00:57:29.11
of the
destruction of the Sodom--
00:57:29.14\00:57:30.86
sorry, Eden with the
smoke going up forever,
00:57:30.89\00:57:34.73
fire burning forever.
00:57:34.76\00:57:36.60
It was about Eden
being destroyed forever.
00:57:36.63\00:57:40.24
Okay. Now, we're
gonna put a pin right there
00:57:40.27\00:57:41.82
because right at the
end out our first hour
00:57:41.85\00:57:43.65
you see where we're going.
00:57:43.68\00:57:45.05
This is good stuff, you want
to come back and be with us.
00:57:45.08\00:57:46.75
We'll be back in just 2 minutes.
00:57:46.78\00:57:48.51