Hello, my name is Lance Wilbur.
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And I'm Dwayne Lemon.
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And we'd like to
welcome you to TKS,
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A True Knowledge of Self,
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where we get to know ourselves
from a biblical perspective.
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Now, Dwayne, you understand that
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as we go through this program,
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we're going to be dealing with
some controversial subjects,
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we're gonna deal
with some subjects
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that people
might not be exposed to
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or it might be new for them.
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And we're gonna be kind of using
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as a backdrop, this conflict.
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And in the Bible, in the
Book of Revelation Chapter 12,
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it talks about a war.
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And we're needing to
help everyone understand
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that we're engaged in this war,
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there's a
conflict or controversy.
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Now it talks about a
war that started in heaven
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but it also goes
on to say in verse 12
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that this war came to the earth.
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And we have to
understand that the war
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or the battle is over
the minds of humanity.
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Something also
interesting in verse 11,
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it talks about
how humanity overcame
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or gained the
victory in this warfare.
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And it talks about
the overcoming of humanity
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by the blood of the Lamb,
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which we're gonna talk about
extensively in future episodes,
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and by the word
of their testimony
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and this in fact,
is what we're gonna be
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talking about
in today's episode.
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We're gonna be talking about
the power of one's testimony
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to overcome obstacles.
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That's right.
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To have the power,
obtain the power to save
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and not only for
us as individuals,
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our own stories,
our own testimonies,
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but the power to
transform others' lives.
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So we're gonna be dealing
with your testimony today.
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And I'm gonna start by
asking a very simple question,
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where are you from?
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Well, I'm from New York,
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specifically
Hollis, Queens to be exact
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and you know,
coming from New York
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and the East Coast,
there is a lot of things
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pertaining to
urban life that you find
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are several types
of origins in New York.
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One of them, of
course, is one of the things
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that we're gonna be addressing
a lot in our episodes,
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which is the hip
hop and R'n'B culture.
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I was heavily exposed to that,
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you know, from a
childhood growing up.
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And I'm the youngest of eight,
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grew up in a home that
had both mom and dad you know,
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and I was
privileged to have that.
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But at the same time,
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even though mom
and dad were there,
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I found myself at times
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you know,
receiving love from my mother
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as best she knew how to love,
receiving it from my father
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as best as he knew how to do it,
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my siblings, I have
four brothers, three sisters
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and even though we
all had our own lives,
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we tried our best to connect
together as a family unit.
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But I think just you
know, being an individual
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growing up urban life style,
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there was no
religion of any kind.
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So there was not
Christianity, Islam or Judaism
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or any other
connecting dots that are,
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you know, bringing us
back to these major religions
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but
nevertheless, we were household
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that tried to
do good to the best
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of what we understood to be good
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and we thought in our minds
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that we were a pretty
well-to-do middle class family.
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Yeah, now let me help
the audience understand
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what we're dealing with.
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When we're talking
about hip hop culture
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and we're talking
about New York City.
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New York City is the
birth place of this culture
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that now spreads
across the globe.
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And Hollis, Queens is
one of the flashpoints
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for the hip hop movement.
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And so
understand that this family,
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your upbringing is in the middle
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of this culture
that is screaming forward
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that some people think as a fad
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but is actually
taking New York by storm
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and soon to be
taking the world by storm.
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That's right, because you know,
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when you think
about New York especially,
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when you're looking at
the 1980s going into the 1990s
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which is of
course, my era, you know,
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you're talking about
some of the greatest hits
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to ever hit the hip
hop and R'n'B industry.
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Everybody from of
course, Run- D.M.C,
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I said Hollis,
Queens so you know,
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that's where
Run- D.M.C. were from.
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And then all the
way down to LL Cool J,
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you know, Q-Tip and five
from A Tribe Called Quest,
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I mean, all of these different,
you know, major rap groups,
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major hits today, this is
where they got their origin,
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right there in Queens, New York
or somewhere adjacent to it.
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So you're right,
we were right there
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entrenched in all of this.
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So tell me a
little bit more about
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how now your
childhood and your upbringing,
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your household
kind of formed you
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or shaped you as a man
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and or the things that
you ran into growing up.
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Yeah, I mean,
you know, everybody,
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you know, the Bible lets us know
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that we all have purpose,
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you know, we were brought
into this world for a reason.
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We are not the
results of same bang
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or some freak
accident that just took place.
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We have purpose in life.
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Now when I'd look at
the book of Isaiah 43:7,
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it tells us that,
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"When God made us He
made us for His glory."
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I didn't know that of course,
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because again, there's
no religious background
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but I had the
hunger and the passion
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from a child to find
out, well, what is my purpose.
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So I looked around.
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When I looked at my father,
he was a jazz musicianist,
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he was drummist specifically,
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and very, very
talented at what he did.
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My mother was a corporate woman,
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my brothers, for the most part,
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were musicians as
well, my brother Leslie,
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he played several instruments.
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My brother Vernon instruments,
my brother Michael you know,
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I know that he
likes to sing a lot
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and a guest being
around that musical upbringing,
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plus I grew up in a
house where were very musical,
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you listen to
music all the time.
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We listen to a lot
of rhythm and blues,
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we listen to a music
style that was called funk
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and you know, there
were a lot of guys like
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you know, the P-Funk
Parliament Movement with
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you know, Clinton and
some of these other guys
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but you know, their
names elude me right now.
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But the point is when I
was around all of this music,
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obviously it's started
to mould me as you asked.
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And I'm trying to figure
out well, what's my contribution
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because I can't play the
drums, I can't play the base,
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I can't play
anything and I can't sing.
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So it was at a young
age that I discovered
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whenever music would come
on, I would just start dancing.
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I mean, I would
just start dancing,
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my legs would just
start moving in voluntarily.
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And it was at a very young age
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that I started to
develop a skill set for dancing
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and I got real good at,
at a very, very early age.
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Right, so explain as well that
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there's different
elements to the culture.
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We're not gonna simply
just be talking about the music
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and the partying
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because there is
all different dimensions
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of the influence of hip
hop, but specifically, you get,
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now involved in
the dancing aspect
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or the breaking aspect.
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And this is one of them--
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At least, probably
it's the earliest recognized
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exposure and aspect of hip hop
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that kind of
went out to the world,
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the break dancing
and the dancing culture
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is extremely large.
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Oh, yeah. And it's everywhere.
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So talk about your experience
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as you started getting
into that in the street level.
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Yeah, I mean, because
again, my mother and father
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because they didn't have
major heavy guidelines to,
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to guide me in growing up,
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I was heavily
exposed to the street,
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I was exposed to street life.
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So even though I
didn't live "street life,"
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I was exposed to it
because I was surrounded--
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By different friends.
Oh, you were around it.
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Yeah, I was just
around it all the time.
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So as a result of that I found
myself meeting some brothers,
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they were into
the break dancing.
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We started to form
a break dancing group
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and we would walk around
with our little cardboard boxes
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and then we just tear them open
pour little talcum powder on it
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and everybody would start
doing everything from backspins,
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the head spins and
you know, all this stuff.
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There was a difference
between the break dancer
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and the one who did pop.
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And I was the guy who did pop,
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which is usually,
when they use the arms
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and all these different things.
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Hey, don't do it
now. Yeah, yeah, you know.
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And these were the
guys who did more of the pop
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and that's what I did.
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So I found myself more
so the guy always standing
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and doing the upper movements
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than the guys who
were down on the floor
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doing all the dirty grimy
spinning and everything else.
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So I found that
this was intriguing me,
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this was pulling at me
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and dancing
became an outlet for me
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because I didn't think
I was a good looking guy,
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I didn't think I had anything
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that could really draw
people to me to make me feel
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that kind of special
guy that I wanted to feel,
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girlfriends,
things of that nature.
00:08:33.71\00:08:35.44
But dancing became an
outlet for me to get attention.
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And as a result
of that, I found that
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dancing became this
medium for me to get glory.
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Again, I didn't understand
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this whole Bible principle
about us giving God glory.
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So everything was
about giving myself glory.
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So dancing became the
outlet for me to do that.
00:08:50.23\00:08:52.59
So I got into the break dancing
and then eventually you know,
00:08:52.63\00:08:55.50
just growing up and eventually
getting to high school level,
00:08:55.53\00:08:58.43
we started to transition
00:08:58.47\00:08:59.80
in more different forms of dance
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which is still connected
to the hip hop culture.
00:09:01.34\00:09:03.81
And I started to
bring that talent
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and those skills
and those abilities
00:09:05.61\00:09:06.94
into the high school arena.
00:09:06.98\00:09:08.31
Right, so you're going parties,
you're getting recognition.
00:09:08.34\00:09:11.15
Yep.
00:09:11.18\00:09:12.51
And now there is a flashpoint
or at least at the local level
00:09:12.55\00:09:15.25
you start to blow
up, so what happens?
00:09:15.28\00:09:17.42
Yeah, I mean
so, can you imagine,
00:09:17.45\00:09:19.09
at one minute you're
walking down the street
00:09:19.12\00:09:21.16
and people actually
initiates saying hello, to you.
00:09:21.19\00:09:24.69
One minute, the young ladies
00:09:24.73\00:09:26.06
that you used to look at far off
00:09:26.09\00:09:27.43
and wish that they will
give you some attention,
00:09:27.46\00:09:29.83
now all of a sudden
you're getting attention.
00:09:29.86\00:09:32.00
So I became kind of the local
00:09:32.03\00:09:34.70
real, real local
neighborhood celebrity.
00:09:34.74\00:09:37.87
But when I went to high school,
00:09:37.91\00:09:40.04
I found myself in another realm,
00:09:40.08\00:09:41.58
but once again I'm not known.
00:09:41.61\00:09:43.18
Once again I don't
have a lot of friends
00:09:43.21\00:09:45.05
and now I have to try to
find a way to you know, grab
00:09:45.08\00:09:48.55
and get people to be friendly.
00:09:48.58\00:09:49.92
To establish ourselves.
00:09:49.95\00:09:51.29
Yeah, just to kind
of establish myself,
00:09:51.32\00:09:52.65
make a name for myself.
00:09:52.69\00:09:54.02
So I knew again, I didn't have
anything about me from dress
00:09:54.06\00:09:57.43
or looks or any other
type of talents or skills
00:09:57.46\00:10:00.50
to draw people to me
but I knew I could dance.
00:10:00.53\00:10:03.70
So I found out
that in high school,
00:10:03.73\00:10:05.33
they had something
called Homecoming King,
00:10:05.37\00:10:07.47
Homecoming Queen Pageant.
00:10:07.50\00:10:08.90
And that was
basically a talent show
00:10:08.94\00:10:10.67
and everybody got a
chance to go on there
00:10:10.71\00:10:12.67
and demonstrate
whatever their talent was.
00:10:12.71\00:10:14.54
In my case it was dancing.
00:10:14.58\00:10:16.14
So I got a chance to perform
and when I began to dance,
00:10:16.18\00:10:20.38
lo and behold,
you'd probably see,
00:10:20.42\00:10:22.38
the picture come
up on the screen here
00:10:22.42\00:10:23.99
where you can see now
00:10:24.02\00:10:25.59
that I became
the Homecoming King.
00:10:25.62\00:10:28.19
Next to me is a young
lady by the name of Melinda.
00:10:28.22\00:10:30.29
She was the Homecoming Queen,
she was a wonderful singer
00:10:30.33\00:10:33.50
but for myself
it was the dancing
00:10:33.53\00:10:35.06
and at that point,
I'm not gonna lie to you,
00:10:35.10\00:10:37.43
I felt like I was
on cloud 999 at the--
00:10:37.47\00:10:40.50
So you got the glory,
you have the glory now.
00:10:40.54\00:10:42.17
I got the glory now.
00:10:42.20\00:10:43.54
And you know,
it's, it's interesting
00:10:43.57\00:10:45.67
looking in hindsight
00:10:45.71\00:10:47.04
because when I
began to study the Bible,
00:10:47.08\00:10:49.81
and I began to read
about the characteristics
00:10:49.84\00:10:52.25
of the being that
was known as Lucifer
00:10:52.28\00:10:54.22
who eventually became Satan is,
00:10:54.25\00:10:57.39
when you read Isaiah
14:12-14, the Bible shows that
00:10:57.42\00:11:01.26
His whole motive was
about bringing glory to himself.
00:11:01.29\00:11:04.63
He was not
satisfied with the gifts,
00:11:04.66\00:11:06.83
the talents and the
skill, and the abilities
00:11:06.86\00:11:08.46
of which he had
plenty of with God,
00:11:08.50\00:11:10.87
he wanted God's position.
00:11:10.90\00:11:12.60
And therefore, he said I want
that glory that belongs to you.
00:11:12.63\00:11:15.24
And that's why the Bible
says, "I will be lifted up."
00:11:15.27\00:11:17.27
"I will ascend above the stars."
00:11:17.31\00:11:18.64
All this I talk.
00:11:18.67\00:11:20.01
And I found myself in my I stage
00:11:20.04\00:11:22.74
at that point in high school.
00:11:22.78\00:11:24.15
Now as the story
goes in Scripture
00:11:24.18\00:11:26.41
and as a story
goes from many of us,
00:11:26.45\00:11:29.02
there is a crisis movement.
00:11:29.05\00:11:31.12
There is something that
happens as you can continue
00:11:31.15\00:11:32.75
to build yourself up,
you build yourself up,
00:11:32.79\00:11:34.66
things are going well
and something intervenes,
00:11:34.69\00:11:37.46
you know, there's
some humbling experience.
00:11:37.49\00:11:39.56
So what happens with you
that makes that transition,
00:11:39.59\00:11:41.43
where that crisis movement
00:11:41.46\00:11:42.80
where you had to
think differently.
00:11:42.83\00:11:44.27
Well, one of the
things that happened was
00:11:44.30\00:11:45.87
when I was in school,
00:11:45.90\00:11:47.64
again, I feel like my
school became my congregation.
00:11:47.67\00:11:51.64
So now when I go there
00:11:51.67\00:11:53.54
as the minister
to that congregation,
00:11:53.58\00:11:55.14
the minister of dancing,
00:11:55.18\00:11:56.51
you know, I
expected to get praise,
00:11:56.54\00:11:58.35
I expected to get glory.
00:11:58.38\00:12:00.02
Well, there were some
visitors who came by the school
00:12:00.05\00:12:02.25
and when they came
down to the school,
00:12:02.28\00:12:03.62
they were also dancers.
00:12:03.65\00:12:05.02
And as they started to
dance at a talent show,
00:12:05.05\00:12:07.99
the whole auditorium
was responding to them,
00:12:08.02\00:12:10.59
to the point they were
even lifting up their hands,
00:12:10.63\00:12:12.29
you know, which we
know is an act of worship.
00:12:12.33\00:12:14.46
I'm sure they didn't know that
00:12:14.50\00:12:15.83
and I didn't know
either at that time
00:12:15.86\00:12:17.20
but nevertheless
it is what it is.
00:12:17.23\00:12:19.30
Here it is that I'm watching
these brothers dance on stage
00:12:19.33\00:12:22.14
and I'm watching
how the auditorium
00:12:22.17\00:12:24.47
is just giving them all
this praise and everything
00:12:24.51\00:12:28.01
and jealously
rises up to my heart.
00:12:28.04\00:12:29.38
Yeah, you feel
disrespected. That's right.
00:12:29.41\00:12:30.75
And you know, and when a
brother feels disrespected,
00:12:30.78\00:12:32.58
he wants to handle it.
00:12:32.61\00:12:33.95
So that's what I did, so
I got a few friends of ours
00:12:33.98\00:12:36.38
and we went up on the stage
00:12:36.42\00:12:37.75
and we started to make
a move around the stage
00:12:37.79\00:12:40.12
while we're walking
around the guys in a circle
00:12:40.16\00:12:42.06
kind of like how the
shark circles around its prey.
00:12:42.09\00:12:44.33
But to dancers,
that was communication
00:12:44.36\00:12:46.46
that I'm about to battle
you, not a fight but battle.
00:12:46.49\00:12:49.30
Challenge.
00:12:49.33\00:12:50.67
But the problem was
is that the teachers
00:12:50.70\00:12:52.87
and other people
didn't understand
00:12:52.90\00:12:54.24
that body language.
00:12:54.27\00:12:55.60
So they thought
we came up to fight.
00:12:55.64\00:12:56.97
So they told us
get off the stage,
00:12:57.01\00:12:58.34
I got off the stage
and long story short,
00:12:58.37\00:13:01.44
before you know
it somebody thought
00:13:01.48\00:13:03.04
I wanted to fight
those guys, I didn't.
00:13:03.08\00:13:05.31
And they started to
fight with those guys,
00:13:05.35\00:13:07.38
started to beat them up
and the whole auditorium
00:13:07.42\00:13:10.09
would seem went to get my back
to start beating those guys up
00:13:10.12\00:13:13.72
and a major fight broke
out, people got hurt real bad,
00:13:13.76\00:13:16.76
police cars, ambulances,
everything is showing up
00:13:16.79\00:13:18.99
at my high school now
00:13:19.03\00:13:20.46
and when I came back
just to few minutes later,
00:13:20.50\00:13:23.50
because I left,
took a little walk,
00:13:23.53\00:13:25.23
came back, saw
all the police cars
00:13:25.27\00:13:27.04
and ambulances and
then when I came inside,
00:13:27.07\00:13:29.24
people said "What
are you doing here?"
00:13:29.27\00:13:30.64
I said, "What do you
mean what am I doing here,
00:13:30.67\00:13:32.01
I just wanted to
see what happened."
00:13:32.04\00:13:33.38
They said, you
need to get out of here,
00:13:33.41\00:13:34.88
you, they're saying,
"You started to this fight."
00:13:34.91\00:13:37.38
And I was like, "What?
I didn't start anything."
00:13:37.41\00:13:38.85
And the long
story short of it is
00:13:38.88\00:13:40.92
they were convinced
I started the fight,
00:13:40.95\00:13:43.25
the guys who were dancing
were part of vicious gang
00:13:43.28\00:13:46.76
that was known in
Brooklyn, New York
00:13:46.79\00:13:48.16
called The Decepticons,
00:13:48.19\00:13:50.19
from the cartoon,
"The Transformers."
00:13:50.23\00:13:51.66
Hey, we heard about
them in Massachusetts.
00:13:51.69\00:13:53.40
Oh okay, see.
That's how that was.
00:13:53.43\00:13:54.76
Yeah, there you go.
00:13:54.80\00:13:56.13
So I mean they were
part of The Decepticons
00:13:56.16\00:13:57.50
and that, anybody who knew about
00:13:57.53\00:13:58.87
the gang knew
that they were no joke.
00:13:58.90\00:14:00.24
They were not the kind of
people you wanted to mess with.
00:14:00.27\00:14:02.50
So I found myself
going home that night.
00:14:02.54\00:14:05.67
And when I got
home, my mother called,
00:14:05.71\00:14:07.61
my mother opens the door.
00:14:07.64\00:14:09.04
She has a phone in
their hand, tears in her eyes
00:14:09.08\00:14:10.78
and she's saying, "Why
these boys are calling me,
00:14:10.81\00:14:12.85
telling me,
they're gonna kill my son.
00:14:12.88\00:14:15.38
These guys called Decepticons."
00:14:15.42\00:14:16.75
And I was like,
"Are you serious?"
00:14:16.79\00:14:18.12
And you know, mom said yes.
00:14:18.15\00:14:19.55
And long story
short, that crisis moment,
00:14:19.59\00:14:21.99
I had to drop out of high school
00:14:22.02\00:14:23.43
because my mother
said and my father,
00:14:23.46\00:14:25.53
"We're not gonna let
you go back to school
00:14:25.56\00:14:27.46
because if you do,
these guys will kill you."
00:14:27.50\00:14:29.40
So as a result of that
it was through death threats
00:14:29.43\00:14:32.37
that I could no
longer go back to school,
00:14:32.40\00:14:34.04
anywhere in Queens.
00:14:34.07\00:14:35.40
And my mother and
father said, "You're not going,
00:14:35.44\00:14:36.77
that you just going to have
to figure out something else."
00:14:36.81\00:14:38.67
So that was a crisis
moment that kind of kicked in.
00:14:38.71\00:14:40.68
So that kind of
escalates. Does it die down?
00:14:40.71\00:14:43.31
What's the end
result of the conflict?
00:14:43.35\00:14:45.91
The end result is I
had some good friends
00:14:45.95\00:14:48.35
who knew that I
didn't start the fight.
00:14:48.38\00:14:50.75
So what they did
was they got in touch
00:14:50.79\00:14:52.49
with some of the
guys on the other side.
00:14:52.52\00:14:54.86
Told them Dwayne didn't do it.
00:14:54.89\00:14:56.32
And they pointed
out the guy who did it.
00:14:56.36\00:14:59.23
And the guy who did it or got--
00:14:59.26\00:15:01.03
You know,
started the whole fight.
00:15:01.06\00:15:02.40
They did end up killing him.
00:15:02.43\00:15:03.87
So again, these
guys meant business,
00:15:03.90\00:15:06.10
they were gonna
do what they said
00:15:06.13\00:15:07.47
they were gonna do.
00:15:07.50\00:15:08.84
My life was spared now
00:15:08.87\00:15:10.21
but when I went to
my mother and father
00:15:10.24\00:15:11.57
and told them, I said,
"Okay, so everything's okay.
00:15:11.61\00:15:13.54
Can I go back to school?"
00:15:13.58\00:15:14.91
They said, "No, we don't want
you to go back to school still.
00:15:14.94\00:15:17.31
You just gonna go ahead
and need to find a job."
00:15:17.35\00:15:19.51
So now I'm on a hunt
trying to find a job.
00:15:19.55\00:15:21.35
I have absolutely no skills,
00:15:21.38\00:15:22.75
talents or
degrees or certificates.
00:15:22.78\00:15:24.32
How old were you at this time?
00:15:24.35\00:15:25.69
At this time I'm 16
years old, no 16 going on 17.
00:15:25.72\00:15:28.96
So I'm like what am
I supposed to do now.
00:15:28.99\00:15:31.59
And then this is
when I found myself
00:15:31.63\00:15:33.96
trying to get odd jobs working
at UPS in different places.
00:15:34.00\00:15:37.50
Hated it, I mean-- I understand.
00:15:37.53\00:15:39.80
Yeah. I hated it
for several reasons.
00:15:39.83\00:15:42.20
So I knew that I
needed to make money.
00:15:42.24\00:15:45.01
My parents knew I
needed to make money.
00:15:45.04\00:15:46.78
But the problem is I didn't have
00:15:46.81\00:15:48.14
any skill sets
to do it except one.
00:15:48.18\00:15:50.28
And that was the
dancing. So here I am.
00:15:50.31\00:15:52.18
I'm always sitting
down watching music videos,
00:15:52.21\00:15:54.02
I'm watching people perform.
00:15:54.05\00:15:55.38
I'm watching people
do all these things.
00:15:55.42\00:15:57.39
The thought
started coming to my mind.
00:15:57.42\00:15:59.09
"Why can't I be on the video?
00:15:59.12\00:16:00.96
Why can't I be
one of those guys?"
00:16:00.99\00:16:02.79
So therefore, I started
to hear about auditions.
00:16:02.82\00:16:05.66
For the first time,
heard about auditions.
00:16:05.69\00:16:07.06
How did you hear about them?
00:16:07.10\00:16:08.43
Well, when you
go to house parties,
00:16:08.46\00:16:10.07
a house party is
always gonna lead to a club.
00:16:10.10\00:16:13.27
Because you go to a house party,
00:16:13.30\00:16:14.64
you meet people,
especially, if you meet dancers.
00:16:14.67\00:16:16.84
If you meet the dancers,
the dancers are gonna tell you,
00:16:16.87\00:16:19.04
hey, have you ever
heard of the Palladium?
00:16:19.07\00:16:21.04
Have you ever heard
of this place that place.
00:16:21.08\00:16:22.78
So I started finding
about all these clubs
00:16:22.81\00:16:24.48
throughout Queens, New York,
00:16:24.51\00:16:25.85
some in Brooklyn,
most in Manhattan.
00:16:25.88\00:16:28.32
And therefore, I started to
go to the clubs in Manhattan.
00:16:28.35\00:16:31.15
In the clubs in Manhattan,
00:16:31.19\00:16:32.52
sometimes you have
celebrities come by.
00:16:32.55\00:16:33.89
Right, what people
don't realize also is that
00:16:33.92\00:16:36.09
as hip hop is
growing in popularity
00:16:36.12\00:16:38.39
and making money
for major companies
00:16:38.43\00:16:40.43
and major labels,
00:16:40.46\00:16:41.86
they are
actually sending workers,
00:16:41.90\00:16:44.23
scouts and A&Rs, talent scouts
are going now into the club.
00:16:44.27\00:16:47.24
All the time.
00:16:47.27\00:16:48.60
So even locally in the
boroughs but mainly Manhattan.
00:16:48.64\00:16:51.21
All the time. If you've got.
00:16:51.24\00:16:52.57
if you you've got to
that level in Manhattan
00:16:52.61\00:16:53.94
showcase there somehow,
00:16:53.98\00:16:55.91
then it attracts the
attention definitely.
00:16:55.94\00:16:58.08
Exactly, so before you know it,
00:16:58.11\00:17:00.18
in going to the
clubs, you meet people
00:17:00.22\00:17:02.18
especially, when you
meet the other dancers.
00:17:02.22\00:17:03.85
And there's always a battle.
00:17:03.89\00:17:05.22
You know, if you win the
battle, then that's huge.
00:17:05.25\00:17:08.92
That's huge.
00:17:08.96\00:17:10.29
You see what
happened was I knew that
00:17:10.33\00:17:11.96
I needed to get
with the dance groups,
00:17:11.99\00:17:13.33
so I didn't want to
kind of do everything myself.
00:17:13.36\00:17:15.30
So at this stage,
where I started to transition
00:17:15.33\00:17:17.93
from a high school, now
going into the club scene,
00:17:17.97\00:17:22.54
I didn't go by myself I
had kind of a group with me
00:17:22.57\00:17:24.81
and there were three brothers
00:17:24.84\00:17:26.17
that I was part of a dance group
00:17:26.21\00:17:27.91
where we were
called Quiet Storm.
00:17:27.94\00:17:29.78
And the words Quiet Storm meant
we walk soft but we hit hard.
00:17:29.81\00:17:33.48
And that was the whole concept.
00:17:33.52\00:17:34.92
The quiet storm, you
know, walk soft but hit hard.
00:17:34.95\00:17:37.52
And I actually
have a photo of them.
00:17:37.55\00:17:39.45
You know, of
some of the brothers
00:17:39.49\00:17:40.82
that we worked with.
00:17:40.86\00:17:42.19
And you know, these are some
of the guys that I work with,
00:17:42.22\00:17:44.06
the one on the
fence his name is Lonnie,
00:17:44.09\00:17:46.09
his stage name was Shadow.
00:17:46.13\00:17:48.10
And it was because
you know, no matter
00:17:48.13\00:17:50.33
what anybody could
do on the dance floor,
00:17:50.37\00:17:51.93
he could shadow it and
do it better than them.
00:17:51.97\00:17:53.90
So that was his concept.
00:17:53.94\00:17:55.27
Because you know, stage names
was huge in hip hop culture
00:17:55.30\00:17:58.21
and it still is.
00:17:58.24\00:17:59.57
So he was Shadow.
00:17:59.61\00:18:01.48
The other brother
with the dread standing
00:18:01.51\00:18:02.98
in the front that was Excel.
00:18:03.01\00:18:04.68
The other
brother, light skin guy
00:18:04.71\00:18:06.05
standing in the back,
that was my good friend Damien
00:18:06.08\00:18:07.52
but you know
his name was Dagger.
00:18:07.55\00:18:09.42
And then my name was DES.
00:18:09.45\00:18:11.69
And you know
that sounds real corny
00:18:11.72\00:18:13.49
but it did have a meaning.
00:18:13.52\00:18:14.92
And the word DES, it
was D-E-S, it stood for dark
00:18:14.96\00:18:18.76
'cause that's obvious.
00:18:18.79\00:18:20.13
Then there was ecclesiastical,
which was interesting
00:18:20.16\00:18:22.86
'cause even before I
gave my heart to the Lord.
00:18:22.90\00:18:25.77
I did feel I was
a spiritual brother.
00:18:25.80\00:18:27.70
You know, so I just
accept the spirituality
00:18:27.74\00:18:29.30
in its general sense.
00:18:29.34\00:18:30.71
So ecclesiastical and
then the S was skillful.
00:18:30.74\00:18:33.38
So that was DES, dark
ecclesiastical and skillful.
00:18:33.41\00:18:36.51
So now we are all partners.
00:18:36.54\00:18:39.08
We're going into the club scene.
00:18:39.11\00:18:41.02
We're dancing and performing
and doing all these things.
00:18:41.05\00:18:43.65
And then eventually,
we started to meet people
00:18:43.69\00:18:45.72
who said, "Hey, have you
ever heard about an audition?"
00:18:45.75\00:18:48.89
I was like, "What's that?"
00:18:48.92\00:18:50.26
They said, "Well,
this is where you can go
00:18:50.29\00:18:51.63
and meet some of these
artists and you can perform.
00:18:51.66\00:18:54.13
And if they like you enough,
00:18:54.16\00:18:55.50
they will put you
in their music video.
00:18:55.53\00:18:57.37
And they will also pay you."
00:18:57.40\00:18:59.20
And this and that and the other.
00:18:59.23\00:19:00.57
And I was like, "Man, can you
imagine getting paid to dance?"
00:19:00.60\00:19:02.97
Yeah, 'cause I'm
dancing for free just--
00:19:03.00\00:19:04.84
In my opinion,
I'm just loving life.
00:19:04.87\00:19:06.78
But now to get paid for,
00:19:06.81\00:19:08.14
now there's a
business aspect to this.
00:19:08.18\00:19:10.25
That has blown me away.
00:19:10.28\00:19:11.61
So before you know it I
started to go on some auditions.
00:19:11.65\00:19:14.68
And so how long did it
take-- How many did you go to?
00:19:14.72\00:19:17.79
You know, what
was the climate like
00:19:17.82\00:19:19.35
and when did you get a break?
00:19:19.39\00:19:21.16
Well, there are several
scores and scores of auditions
00:19:21.19\00:19:26.36
that you
typically are gonna go to
00:19:26.39\00:19:28.36
because the best
talent in New York City
00:19:28.40\00:19:31.33
is gonna come
to those auditions.
00:19:31.37\00:19:32.70
Especially, if
there's a big artist.
00:19:32.73\00:19:34.44
So if it was like a local rapper
00:19:34.47\00:19:35.94
or something like
that then you know
00:19:35.97\00:19:37.61
you probably want to
have a large turnout,
00:19:37.64\00:19:39.37
the competition is easier.
00:19:39.41\00:19:40.74
But when it came
to the big names,
00:19:40.78\00:19:42.14
especially, in those days,
00:19:42.18\00:19:43.51
you know, we're
talking early 1990s,
00:19:43.55\00:19:45.95
you know early 1990s,
late 1980s, early 1990s,
00:19:45.98\00:19:49.42
you got some
really big names now,
00:19:49.45\00:19:51.42
you've got the LL Cool J,
00:19:51.45\00:19:53.09
that was a huge name in hip hop.
00:19:53.12\00:19:54.49
You had Run-D.M.C., of
course, huge name in hip hop.
00:19:54.52\00:19:57.23
Queen Latifah,
huge name in hip hop.
00:19:57.26\00:19:59.39
So if you had anybody like that,
00:19:59.43\00:20:01.96
that's where, you
could literally go up
00:20:02.00\00:20:03.80
against up to
500 to 1,000 dancers.
00:20:03.83\00:20:07.60
And then you got to be scaled
down to be number one pick.
00:20:07.64\00:20:10.31
Right, so they're
casting for videos,
00:20:10.34\00:20:11.91
they're casting for tours.
00:20:11.94\00:20:13.27
Exactly. Videos and tours.
00:20:13.31\00:20:15.04
So I went on several of
them and there were several
00:20:15.08\00:20:16.98
I did not get.
00:20:17.01\00:20:18.35
The one that was probably
00:20:18.38\00:20:19.71
the greatest breakthrough
for me was Queen Latifah.
00:20:19.75\00:20:22.92
Queen Latifah ended up holding
00:20:22.95\00:20:24.45
an audition and
she wanted to bring
00:20:24.49\00:20:26.62
some people with
her on what was called
00:20:26.65\00:20:28.42
the Public Enemy
Apocalypse World Tour.
00:20:28.46\00:20:31.06
And it was led
by-- Massive tour.
00:20:31.09\00:20:32.53
Massive tour, it
was Public Enemy,
00:20:32.56\00:20:34.60
Leaders of the New School
which included Busta Rhymes,
00:20:34.63\00:20:37.07
A Tribe Called
Quest, Queen Latifah,
00:20:37.10\00:20:39.73
several hip hop artists,
00:20:39.77\00:20:41.10
major hip hop,
Naughty by nature.
00:20:41.14\00:20:42.97
So when I went to that audition,
00:20:43.00\00:20:46.11
I performed and I was
dancing before Latifah,
00:20:46.14\00:20:48.48
Latifah was sitting
just a few feet further
00:20:48.51\00:20:50.95
from where you're sitting,
she was sitting back there
00:20:50.98\00:20:53.05
and she had to watch me dancing.
00:20:53.08\00:20:54.42
I was right in front of
her and I just put on my best.
00:20:54.45\00:20:56.58
And when I
performed, she looked at me
00:20:56.62\00:20:59.15
and she kind of had this smile
on her face like she approved.
00:20:59.19\00:21:02.12
So I was really happy.
00:21:02.16\00:21:03.53
So I went home and my phone rang
00:21:03.56\00:21:06.43
and when my phone rang
00:21:06.46\00:21:08.06
there was this
woman's voice saying,
00:21:08.10\00:21:09.43
"Hi, could I speak to Des?"
00:21:09.46\00:21:11.53
And I was like okay not
everybody calls me with Des.
00:21:11.57\00:21:13.27
You know, scaling it
down, eventually I said,
00:21:13.30\00:21:15.64
"Who's this speaking?"
00:21:15.67\00:21:17.01
"This is Queen Latifah."
And I was like, "Oh, okay."
00:21:17.04\00:21:19.51
And you know,
got a little excited.
00:21:19.54\00:21:20.88
I had-- you got
to try to keep cool
00:21:20.91\00:21:22.91
but nevertheless got excited.
00:21:22.94\00:21:26.05
And then from that she
said, "Congratulations,
00:21:26.08\00:21:28.28
you've been chosen to
go on the tour with us."
00:21:28.32\00:21:30.45
So it was from that point
00:21:30.49\00:21:32.62
that I was able to
really transitioned
00:21:32.65\00:21:35.52
where now, I'm not the guy
00:21:35.56\00:21:37.23
sitting down watching the videos
00:21:37.26\00:21:39.36
but now I'm the guy
that was in the videos.
00:21:39.39\00:21:41.56
All right. So you get the break.
00:21:41.60\00:21:44.03
You go, are you going
on tour, is this a video?
00:21:44.07\00:21:46.03
This specific
one was for the tour.
00:21:46.07\00:21:47.94
The Apocalypse tour. Yeah.
00:21:47.97\00:21:49.30
So you go on tour
now and this obviously
00:21:49.34\00:21:51.17
is gonna lead to other jobs.
00:21:51.21\00:21:53.58
Oh, yes. Other
spots, other slots.
00:21:53.61\00:21:55.38
So to what extent did you,
you know, blow up as they say?
00:21:55.41\00:21:59.58
Okay, well, I got a chance
to work with several artists.
00:21:59.61\00:22:02.62
Some of them were
really, really known in the time
00:22:02.65\00:22:06.39
when I was performing.
00:22:06.42\00:22:07.76
Some of them are
not as known today
00:22:07.79\00:22:09.12
and then there are
some artists who are.
00:22:09.16\00:22:10.49
The artists that I
don't know how prevalent
00:22:10.53\00:22:12.23
they are today in the
hip hop and on the industry,
00:22:12.26\00:22:15.16
but there was a gentleman
by the name of Tony Terry.
00:22:15.20\00:22:17.87
He was he was a great singer,
great singer, very talented.
00:22:17.90\00:22:20.64
And I worked with
him. There was a--
00:22:20.67\00:22:22.34
When house music was a big hit,
00:22:22.37\00:22:23.84
today you don't hear
a lot about house music.
00:22:23.87\00:22:25.94
But when house
music was a big hit,
00:22:25.97\00:22:27.38
one of the big names
behind it was CeCe Peniston.
00:22:27.41\00:22:29.78
So I got a
chance to work with her.
00:22:29.81\00:22:31.95
There was also a lady
by the name of Lisa Lisa,
00:22:31.98\00:22:34.05
Hispanic sister.
00:22:34.08\00:22:35.42
And Lisa Lisa and the Cult Jam.
00:22:35.45\00:22:37.69
That's what they were called.
The Cult Jam, I remember.
00:22:37.72\00:22:39.05
Yeah. And you know.
00:22:39.09\00:22:40.42
So these were the
folks that I don't know
00:22:40.46\00:22:41.89
if they're as known today.
00:22:41.92\00:22:43.59
But nevertheless they
were pivotal at that time.
00:22:43.63\00:22:46.56
Again, late 1980s, early 1990s.
00:22:46.59\00:22:48.60
So other artists that are known.
00:22:48.63\00:22:50.17
The artists that are known
are more so like Queen Latifah.
00:22:50.20\00:22:52.83
Obviously. Okay.
00:22:52.87\00:22:54.20
Naughty by nature,
then there was Wu-Tang Clan
00:22:54.24\00:22:57.41
which of course,
has Method Man there,
00:22:57.44\00:22:58.94
which a lot of people still
acknowledge in hip hop realm.
00:22:58.97\00:23:02.84
Then there was of course,
00:23:02.88\00:23:05.61
what's the other
one here, Brandy.
00:23:05.65\00:23:07.62
Brandy was a major breakthrough.
00:23:07.65\00:23:08.98
I got a chance to go on
tour with Brandy, Keith Sweat,
00:23:09.02\00:23:11.69
Boyz II Men, the
group, the R'n'B called Silk.
00:23:11.72\00:23:14.92
Brandy is still
a major hit today.
00:23:14.96\00:23:16.96
So I didn't
just perform for them
00:23:16.99\00:23:20.60
and go on tours with them
and do the videos with them,
00:23:20.63\00:23:24.20
but then it got to a point that
00:23:24.23\00:23:25.60
it moved me even
to a higher level
00:23:25.63\00:23:27.30
which took me to
more of the business
00:23:27.34\00:23:28.67
aspect of dancing
which was choreography.
00:23:28.70\00:23:32.31
I never knew this. I could--
00:23:32.34\00:23:34.64
I was very creative in
putting together dance steps.
00:23:34.68\00:23:37.65
That was something
that I knew how to do.
00:23:37.68\00:23:39.88
So it was consistent
that every time I perform,
00:23:39.91\00:23:43.75
people would say, "Hey, can
you make up some of the steps?"
00:23:43.79\00:23:46.72
One day I was asked
by a group to go ahead
00:23:46.76\00:23:49.76
and create about 12 routines.
00:23:49.79\00:23:52.36
When I said, "Okay,
what will you pay me?"
00:23:52.39\00:23:55.63
And when I discovered the amount
00:23:55.66\00:23:57.03
of thousands of
dollars that you could get paid
00:23:57.07\00:24:00.27
just for creating one song,
00:24:00.30\00:24:03.24
that's when I
started to realize,
00:24:03.27\00:24:04.61
wow, there's a business
aspect to this whole thing.
00:24:04.64\00:24:06.11
'Cause you know,
again I'm the kind of guy,
00:24:06.14\00:24:07.48
I was happy just to dance.
00:24:07.51\00:24:08.84
Right, so it didn't make
sense to do the dancing per se
00:24:08.88\00:24:11.55
but now go to that
next level and choreograph
00:24:11.58\00:24:15.15
and make crazy money.
00:24:15.18\00:24:16.52
Exactly. So now here it is.
00:24:16.55\00:24:17.89
I'm now in the hip
hop and R'n'B industry.
00:24:17.92\00:24:20.19
I'm entrenched in it.
Now I'm in the videos.
00:24:20.22\00:24:22.56
Now I'm going on tour.
00:24:22.59\00:24:23.93
Now the limousines are
dropping me home at night.
00:24:23.96\00:24:25.93
Now all of these
things are happening.
00:24:25.96\00:24:27.76
I'm making thousands of dollars.
00:24:27.80\00:24:29.83
And as far as I'm
concerned, I have arrived.
00:24:29.86\00:24:33.03
That little void
that was in my heart
00:24:33.07\00:24:35.57
from way back, even
as a child growing up
00:24:35.60\00:24:38.11
of just a point of satisfaction
00:24:38.14\00:24:39.47
that only God can
fill, it was still there.
00:24:39.51\00:24:42.24
And it was amazing
that you can make money.
00:24:42.28\00:24:43.88
It was amazing that you
could be in the limelight.
00:24:43.91\00:24:45.78
It was amazing
that you could have
00:24:45.81\00:24:47.15
people wanting your autograph
and all this other stuff.
00:24:47.18\00:24:50.15
But still there's
an emptiness inside.
00:24:50.19\00:24:52.82
There are people who often think
00:24:52.85\00:24:54.62
how could a multimillionaire
actor or actress
00:24:54.66\00:24:57.13
or somebody kill themselves?
00:24:57.16\00:24:58.99
What in the world
they're sad about?
00:24:59.03\00:25:00.40
But they don't understand,
you can make lots of money.
00:25:00.43\00:25:02.93
You can be in the limelight,
you can have people watching
00:25:02.96\00:25:05.13
over you and "loving you."
00:25:05.17\00:25:07.14
But at the end of the day
00:25:07.17\00:25:08.50
there's a void
in every man's heart
00:25:08.54\00:25:09.94
that is designed
only for God to fill.
00:25:09.97\00:25:13.14
And it was
because I didn't know that
00:25:13.17\00:25:15.08
that going through the industry,
00:25:15.11\00:25:16.44
now here's where it gets deep.
00:25:16.48\00:25:18.21
When you do not have
00:25:18.25\00:25:21.98
that void filled,
you try to fill it.
00:25:22.02\00:25:26.09
With the stuff. Exactly.
00:25:26.12\00:25:27.46
You try to fill it with stuff.
00:25:27.49\00:25:28.82
And this is why it is
very typical in entertainment
00:25:28.86\00:25:31.66
that there's always
somebody buying the latest car.
00:25:31.69\00:25:33.83
There's always somebody getting
00:25:33.86\00:25:35.20
that unique iPhone
that only they have.
00:25:35.23\00:25:38.20
There's got to
be something unique,
00:25:38.23\00:25:40.10
there's got to be
something different.
00:25:40.14\00:25:41.67
There's got to
be something special
00:25:41.70\00:25:43.04
and extravagant that stands out
00:25:43.07\00:25:44.87
that can bring about
this temporal satisfaction
00:25:44.91\00:25:48.08
that only God can fill in
truth with eternal satisfaction.
00:25:48.11\00:25:51.18
Right, and now, I mean,
we're gonna have to transition
00:25:51.21\00:25:54.58
because in our next episode
00:25:54.62\00:25:55.95
we're gonna go
through that journey.
00:25:55.98\00:25:57.59
Of how that
transition, what sparked it.
00:25:57.62\00:26:00.59
Why make the change,
why even consider a change,
00:26:00.62\00:26:03.93
considering the
fact that you're at,
00:26:03.96\00:26:05.56
at least somewhere in the top
00:26:05.59\00:26:07.46
of your craft of your skill set.
00:26:07.50\00:26:10.30
And that's the thing.
00:26:10.33\00:26:11.67
Like you said, as
we get into an area
00:26:11.70\00:26:16.14
where we find "success"
there's still the social needs
00:26:16.17\00:26:20.01
that aren't met by money.
00:26:20.04\00:26:22.18
Or you might try to seek
it through relationships.
00:26:22.21\00:26:24.61
Or like you
said, you might seek it
00:26:24.65\00:26:25.98
through things, material items.
00:26:26.01\00:26:27.82
And there's that
spiritual side as well,
00:26:27.85\00:26:29.72
and this is what
we're gonna be focusing on
00:26:29.75\00:26:31.12
and talking about what
true knowledge of self,
00:26:31.15\00:26:34.06
hip hop is
rampant with spirituality.
00:26:34.09\00:26:37.73
There's a religious
undertone that kind of guides
00:26:37.76\00:26:40.40
and governs that at
least the thought process
00:26:40.43\00:26:43.06
and the thought
leaders of hip hop.
00:26:43.10\00:26:45.27
And so it's out there.
00:26:45.30\00:26:46.63
So we're gonna
talk about, you know,
00:26:46.67\00:26:48.00
some of those transitions,
some of those interactions
00:26:48.04\00:26:50.74
and the different encounters
00:26:50.77\00:26:52.11
you had with
those various religions.
00:26:52.14\00:26:54.01
And what kind of led
you to consider something
00:26:54.04\00:26:56.24
greater than
yourself and move into
00:26:56.28\00:26:59.01
what we now
know to be the truth.
00:26:59.05\00:27:02.28
So I want to
encourage the audience
00:27:02.32\00:27:05.05
to continue to tune
in, to invite a friend,
00:27:05.09\00:27:10.23
and consider when we talk
about true knowledge of self,
00:27:10.26\00:27:12.83
we're talking
about hip hop culture.
00:27:12.86\00:27:15.40
Does it really have it or
is there more to the story.
00:27:15.43\00:27:18.93
Is there truth in Scripture?
00:27:18.97\00:27:21.47
Is there a way to escape
without having to sell drugs,
00:27:21.50\00:27:25.37
without having to
having to become an athlete,
00:27:25.41\00:27:29.28
without having to go
into the music industry
00:27:29.31\00:27:31.78
or the entertainment industry.
00:27:31.81\00:27:33.15
Is there another way to escape
the trappings of the city?
00:27:33.18\00:27:37.39
So we thank you
for tuning in to TKS,
00:27:37.42\00:27:40.06
True Knowledge of Self.
00:27:40.09\00:27:41.66
And we want you to
continually remember
00:27:41.69\00:27:44.49
as it says in the
Bible in Proverbs 2:6,
00:27:44.53\00:27:49.00
"The Lord gives
wisdom and out of His mouth
00:27:49.03\00:27:54.04
cometh knowledge
and understanding."
00:27:54.07\00:27:57.21
Remember these things.
And we hope to see you again.
00:27:57.24\00:28:00.38