We are here with the Conways
and their ministry Stamina for
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Life.
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Just want to remind you that
we are taking your questions and
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your concerns.
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If you have a question or
concern, please email to live
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at 3abn.tv, live at 3abn.tv or
text to 618-228-3975 and again
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be sure to text and not call.
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Amen.
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We have a question, but before
we go there, I just want to let
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you know what Anissa and I
were thinking for this segment.
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We want to go to school, okay?
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We want to throw some scenarios
that some of our viewers and
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listeners may be experiencing
or know someone that's
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experiencing and we
just want to talk about it.
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We just want to break it down.
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But before we do, we have
another question, do we not?
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We do have a question.
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This one reads, how do
I approach my 15 year old
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grandson?
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All his interests have changed.
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I know he was abused sexually,
but when I ask what's wrong, he
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says nothing.
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So he's going downhill, moving
away from God, sad demeanor
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shut down and his
grades have gone down.
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Please help.
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I don't know how to
even approach him about it.
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He gets defensive with me,
but he's such a good child, but
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slowly going down.
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That's such an unfortunate
experience for this young man
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to have gone through.
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Go ahead, baby.
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we love and our families who
have had experiences that are
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such as this,
unfortunately this is common.
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In the world that we live
in today, we are told that
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statistically one in three
of young women have experienced
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things such as sexual abuse
and we are told it happens less
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with men, but I
don't believe that.
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I believe that in our culture,
it has just been not acceptable
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for men to talk about it.
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And so one of the things
that I want to encourage this
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grandparent in is to know that
your presence means everything.
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Your ability to be there
and to show up as a loving, safe
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person is so important.
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It is difficult when you
have gone through such a shaming
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experience because
that's what abuse does.
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Unfortunately, the people who
are abused, we carry the shame
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instead of the people
who have committed the abuse.
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And so one of the things
that I want to encourage the
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grandparent to do is
to first seek help, right?
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More than just right now, right?
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Beyond this episode, seeking
help, someone professionally
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who can walk alongside you to
help you to be able to know how
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to show up.
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abused person.
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finding support.
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people who are caring for those
children so that you can have
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that support and get some tools
for yourself to be able to walk
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alongside.
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Secondly, one of the things I
would say is also finding help
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for your grandson, right?
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It sounds like
you're aware for a reason.
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I don't know if it's
because he's told you or the
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information is but walking
alongside him and finding
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someone who can
come and help him, right?
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To process this traumatic
experience in his life.
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And those are some very
intricate steps that you can do
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right now, right?
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You can read, you can
get information, right?
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There are books that are
available and there's things,
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periodicals that are out there
to educate us on how to help,
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right?
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And then there are and so there
are some of those things that I
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also we have available on our
website and we, you know, put
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those things up at
stamina for life dot com.
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So, but I just want to
commend you for being present.
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I want to commend you for being
willing to acknowledge that
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those things are very powerful
and not hiding, you know, I
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would just add to that.
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Sometimes whenever we're
working with someone who's gone
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through a traumatic experience,
I think it's healthy for us to
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be aware that people may not
have words to express what it
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is that they're feeling.
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So when you ask, you know, your
grandson, you know, how are you
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doing and they say, well, I'm
all right or I don't know, they
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may not know.
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They may not know because they
don't know how to articulate
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vocabulary.
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And you can imagine just the
whole gambit of emotions that a
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person can experience.
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And if they don't have
the vocabulary to be able to
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express that, it can be
frustrating to the individual
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as well.
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don't have a vocabulary to say,
this is what I'm feeling right
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here.
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Yeah.
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with teenagers, right?
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First and foremost, it's rough
out here when you're trying to
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develop a rapport, right?
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Sometimes, but an experience
that I had with one of my
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youngest children, my
son, he had left school.
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We homeschooled
for so many years.
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We went through this transition
period where now he's leaving
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home to go to school
every day away from us.
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And it was and I remember
him coming home from school one
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day.
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people, right?
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Talking and doing
workshops and coaching.
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And he sees this thing I carry
around called an emotion wheel.
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And here we are thinking that
we're very emotionally aware as
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parents, right?
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But you don't realize how
much vocabulary and emotional
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vocabulary is important.
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Long story short, he came
home from school because I was
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constantly asking
him, what's wrong, right?
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Isn't that
frustrating as a parent?
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What's wrong?
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them?
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Right?
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Well, one day he came home and
he took out of his pocket and
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he laid this piece of
paper out and I opened it up.
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It was one of my emotion wheels.
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And what he did is he marked
off the emotions that he was
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feeling.
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That was a instance for me as
a parent to say, wait a minute,
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all the times that I was asking
him, he really didn't know what
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to say.
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Yes, he knew
something was wrong.
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So I sat down with him and
walked through this emotion
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wheel.
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Oh, why are you sad?
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Why are you frustrated?
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Why are you
whatever you're feeling?
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Right?
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And at that moment, ah,
you've got a chance to break a
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generational curse.
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Is that emotion wheel something
that was available online?
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Can we?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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and vocabulary that we
simply stand in the middle.
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If you see an emotion wheel,
we live in the center that says,
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I'm happy, happy, sad, angry,
angry, you know, those are the
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simple words.
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Yeah.
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than sad.
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You are disappointed.
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Okay.
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group of peers that you've been
trying to get to maybe get away
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from a particularly bad
behavior and they haven't
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responded.
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And you are exhausted.
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I, I love these people and I
want to continue in community
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with them, but they keep doing
these and I'm not, they're not
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listening to me when I'm trying
to appeal to them to come away.
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How do you feel?
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I'm exhausted or I'm ashamed
grandma, you know, maybe he's
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ashamed.
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You know, this thing has
happened to me and I don't know
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how to talk about it.
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You know, how do we communicate
with our children that emotions
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are okay.
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You know, this is huge.
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And I think culturally I want
to address that because in a
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lot of, and when I say culture,
I say this all the time, my
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husband, we're not talking
about the color of your skin.
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We're talking about
the homes you grew up in.
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That's the very first culture
that any of us are exposed to.
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And we may have the same
color skin, but our homes were
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completely different, right?
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How they did things in his home
and how did things in our home.
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So when you want to talk
about how do we get over this
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precipice of talking about
emotions, you first got to be
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willing to acknowledge whether
or not that's where you come
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from, right?
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And the homes that we grew
up in, is this what we were
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allowed to do?
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Or am I going to even have
to start over a fresh and a new?
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And so it takes
vulnerability as a parent.
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It takes vulnerability.
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Yeah.
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How do you feel?
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And then when they really start
telling you like, okay, that's
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enough.
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Stop right there.
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You know, especially when they
start telling you how they feel
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about you and how you show up.
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And it's like, well, I
was asking you about yourself.
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As you start
telling me about me.
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So, you know, understanding
where we are is an extremely
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important thing.
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What we found is that family
worship is a wonderful place
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for us to begin to explore
because there's a principle
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that we operate on and we
believe this is a universal
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principle.
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And it goes like this.
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It's easier for people to
examine the emotions and the
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mistakes of others than it
is for any of us to examine our
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own emotions and mistakes.
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So if we're reading a story
about one of the individuals in
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the Bible, it's easy for me
to use this as a moment for my
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children, for me to ask, how
do you think this person felt?
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What do you think are some
of the emotions that this person
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will be going through?
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And they can speak freely and
openly about David or Moses or
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Joshua or John or Matthew
or Mark or Paul or, you know,
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Rebecca, Sarah, you
know, Hagar, Eve, any of the
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characters in the
Bible because it's not them.
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Right?
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I'm merely examining someone
else in a scenario and I am
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attaching feeling words to what
they might be going through.
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This is one of the ways that
we began to build and develop
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emotional
vocabulary for our children.
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And we're doing it in a space
that's safe because now the
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subject is not them.
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And why is that important?
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Because if I'm and I tell
my parents, well, I'm really
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frustrated with you because
you don't keep your word.
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Well, see, you know, most the
conversation is never going to
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get there because they're like,
I can't say that to my, I can't
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say that that's
how I feel about that.
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I'm really mad and I'm
angry or frustrated with them.
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Right.
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space and in a safe space
so that when the conversation
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needs to come and become
more personal with this context.
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Number one, I'm, there is a
vocabulary and number two, my
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children know that I'm open and
my family community understands
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that I'm also open for you
to share how you feel about me.
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And that means, and we've
done this before, you know, I
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remember one time I asked our
kids, we were at family worship
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and I said, we had read some
story and I said, I said, do
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you, do you think
that, do you think that I am,
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maybe it was controlling
or something like that.
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And my oldest daughter said,
no, I don't think that you're
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like that.
00:12:00.38\00:12:05.15
do them.
00:12:05.15\00:12:05.82
And I was like, that was deep.
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I know I was like, and
I was like, you know what?
00:12:08.99\00:12:12.36
You're right.
00:12:12.76\00:12:13.56
But then I'm thinking like,
man, there are other ways other
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than the way
that I would do them.
00:12:21.27\00:12:22.64
Yes.
00:12:22.64\00:12:22.67
Yes.
00:12:22.90\00:12:23.07
Yes.
00:12:23.17\00:12:23.20
Wow.
00:12:23.44\00:12:23.81
There are other ways.
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Yeah.
00:12:24.97\00:12:27.88
Yes.
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So it's whoa.
00:12:28.31\00:12:29.31
But we got to
make space for that.
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Let's just stay there a second
and, and then help our parents
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out.
00:12:36.12\00:12:36.62
What, what
mindset should we have?
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How do we getting ready, you
know, approach our children or
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listen to our children?
00:12:47.36\00:12:48.60
What mindset when they're about
to kick the truth out about us,
00:12:48.70\00:12:53.10
when they're about to use this
word, gave us their subjective
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experience.
00:12:56.64\00:12:57.24
Well, yes, yes, yes.
00:13:00.54\00:13:03.01
Yeah.
00:13:03.11\00:13:06.48
We need to be open.
00:13:07.35\00:13:08.28
We need to be vulnerable.
00:13:08.75\00:13:10.09
We don't need to be defensive.
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I'm sorry.
00:13:12.75\00:13:13.15
Go ahead.
00:13:13.29\00:13:13.96
And you know, we, we use these
words and these terms a lot,
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right?
00:13:17.89\00:13:22.23
through this thing
called raising children.
00:13:22.23\00:13:23.80
And I'm like, Oh, what real
soul winning is about, right?
00:13:23.80\00:13:28.74
We, we love to say
that word soul winning.
00:13:28.97\00:13:30.74
The first soul you're going
to ever win is in your house.
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You know what I'm saying?
00:13:34.41\00:13:35.44
And, and it doesn't come
because you do everything
00:13:35.51\00:13:37.45
perfectly.
00:13:37.45\00:13:41.78
I'm not saying I've done
it perfectly, but it's been
00:13:41.78\00:13:44.15
humbling being a parent because
I could tell them what to do,
00:13:44.15\00:13:48.16
but am I demonstrating
to them how to do it?
00:13:48.16\00:13:51.69
And part of that is
also in conversation.
00:13:51.73\00:13:53.96
If I want them to
honor me, am I honoring them?
00:13:54.20\00:13:57.47
Oh, yes.
00:13:57.63\00:13:58.37
Yes.
00:13:58.60\00:14:02.27
that because I'm the oldest and
because I'm the hurry head in
00:14:02.27\00:14:05.94
the home, I'm to be
respected at all times.
00:14:05.94\00:14:08.31
No matter what, right?
00:14:08.44\00:14:09.34
Should be seen and not heard.
00:14:09.34\00:14:11.05
All these damaging things that
throughout the years created
00:14:11.25\00:14:13.65
unhealthy adults, right?
00:14:13.65\00:14:15.85
But my ego is not injured
because my children come and
00:14:16.28\00:14:19.59
tell me I've
done something wrong.
00:14:19.59\00:14:20.46
I don't lose my
place as a mother.
00:14:20.52\00:14:21.86
He doesn't lose his place as
a father or an authority figure.
00:14:22.02\00:14:24.83
In fact, I can endear
my children to me by having
00:14:24.99\00:14:28.16
humility.
00:14:28.16\00:14:28.80
If that, yeah.
00:14:29.06\00:14:30.13
Yeah.
00:14:30.40\00:14:34.94
demonstration of what it means
to actually live and love in
00:14:34.94\00:14:38.37
the way that Jesus would.
00:14:38.37\00:14:39.31
And that means, you know, that
means making myself vulnerable.
00:14:39.71\00:14:44.11
And, and I think, you
know, humility, humility.
00:14:45.01\00:14:49.55
And what, what I mean when I
say humility is if I've already
00:14:49.98\00:14:53.72
gone to the woodshed with
me and Jesus, and he's told me
00:14:53.72\00:14:57.66
this, then I'm open.
00:14:57.66\00:14:58.83
I'm like, okay, go ahead.
00:14:58.93\00:14:59.69
Yeah.
00:14:59.79\00:15:00.13
Yeah.
00:15:00.13\00:15:02.00
I've seen it.
00:15:02.20\00:15:02.80
Yes.
00:15:02.90\00:15:06.63
weaknesses are already.
00:15:06.63\00:15:08.24
Okay.
00:15:08.70\00:15:13.01
out some blind spots in areas
that I haven't seen, but I'm
00:15:13.01\00:15:16.48
already in the habit of daily
going to Jesus so that he can
00:15:16.48\00:15:21.28
point out things.
00:15:21.28\00:15:22.45
And so that not always that,
you know, my worship is just go
00:15:22.45\00:15:26.09
to Jesus.
00:15:26.09\00:15:27.82
Not that, but you know, we're
told the closer that we get to
00:15:28.19\00:15:32.06
Jesus, the more that we'll see
our imperfections and the areas
00:15:32.06\00:15:35.73
in lives where
we're not like him.
00:15:35.73\00:15:37.43
And so that's a part of
my relationship with Jesus.
00:15:37.83\00:15:40.60
Likewise, when I turn and
whether it's my relationship
00:15:41.27\00:15:44.31
with my wife or my children,
there's going to be things that
00:15:44.31\00:15:47.78
come up and I need to be
open to listen to those things.
00:15:47.78\00:15:51.51
No, no, no, no, no.
00:15:51.55\00:15:55.65
know, you can tell me
some things, but don't be
00:15:55.65\00:15:57.82
disrespectful.
00:15:57.82\00:15:58.42
Is that okay?
00:15:59.25\00:16:00.79
Is that okay?
00:16:01.19\00:16:01.89
And listen, let me be
quite honest with you.
00:16:02.19\00:16:04.63
Um, and with these children
that God has blessed us with,
00:16:04.89\00:16:07.50
I've had those moments, right?
00:16:07.66\00:16:09.33
Where they have spoken to,
and I've never had my child lie,
00:16:09.43\00:16:11.63
you know, or yell at me or
anything of that nature, right?
00:16:11.63\00:16:13.84
Bless the Lord.
00:16:13.84\00:16:13.87
Oh, my soul.
00:16:14.74\00:16:15.30
But, um, yes.
00:16:18.57\00:16:20.61
Have I had my children speak
to me and they're, they have,
00:16:20.64\00:16:22.94
they're angry or
frustrated, right?
00:16:23.14\00:16:25.18
Or, or, you know, they
have emotions, you know, and our
00:16:25.18\00:16:27.65
emotions.
00:16:27.65\00:16:29.58
Yeah.
00:16:29.62\00:16:31.99
I tell my kids, they,
they, they're, they should be
00:16:32.22\00:16:34.22
thankful.
00:16:34.22\00:16:34.82
They got this parent, this,
this, this pre, you know, post,
00:16:35.42\00:16:41.06
you know, save, sanctify,
feel like they are blessed, you
00:16:41.70\00:16:45.57
know?
00:16:45.57\00:16:47.97
There are times when I want
to revert back to what I'm like,
00:16:48.27\00:16:50.54
no, Lord, I'm doing some things
differently, but by the grace
00:16:50.64\00:16:53.51
and power of God, you know?
00:16:53.51\00:16:54.48
And I think given one another
grace, cause I gotta ask myself
00:16:54.84\00:16:57.71
the question, have I
ever spoken to them and not
00:16:57.71\00:17:02.78
respected them as
sons and daughters of God?
00:17:02.78\00:17:08.56
Can you define that?
00:17:08.56\00:17:09.92
Cause we're well versed
on respecting the parents.
00:17:10.16\00:17:13.36
What does
respecting the child look like?
00:17:14.00\00:17:16.23
What is that?
00:17:16.30\00:17:16.70
Right, right.
00:17:16.93\00:17:22.44
the Lord's heritage and
they are on loan to us from God,
00:17:22.44\00:17:28.51
which means that we are
responsible as stewards to care
00:17:28.81\00:17:32.35
for them, which means that I
need to speak to them with the
00:17:32.35\00:17:37.99
respect that is due to
them as image bearers of God.
00:17:37.99\00:17:42.52
Right?
00:17:43.29\00:17:48.43
than I treat my own.
00:17:48.43\00:17:49.46
I should not speak to other
people's children as though,
00:17:49.63\00:17:53.00
okay, I can't say that to you
cause I'm afraid your mama or
00:17:53.17\00:17:55.64
your daddy might come and you
know, but then I speak any kind
00:17:55.64\00:17:58.94
of way to my
own children, right?
00:17:58.94\00:18:00.94
Because I need to understand
not a human mother or father,
00:18:01.38\00:18:06.08
but the divine father is going
to, Hey, why are you talking to
00:18:06.72\00:18:09.35
my child like that?
00:18:09.35\00:18:10.62
Right?
00:18:11.22\00:18:11.25
And you know what?
00:18:12.05\00:18:15.79
conversation because there's
a lot of convoluted things out
00:18:15.79\00:18:19.83
there, but people watch
how you treat your child.
00:18:19.83\00:18:22.53
Let's be real out here.
00:18:23.00\00:18:24.10
Right?
00:18:24.37\00:18:27.67
children in such a way that
is so demeaning and so broken
00:18:27.67\00:18:31.24
predators look for people.
00:18:31.24\00:18:34.14
I'm just going to be honest
about predators of children
00:18:34.21\00:18:39.05
look for people and families
where the children are demeaned
00:18:39.05\00:18:44.12
and belittled and cursed,
cursed at and called out of
00:18:44.12\00:18:49.36
their names and
just negative speaking.
00:18:49.36\00:18:52.56
Right?
00:18:52.63\00:18:56.53
simply a child, you know,
and it is heartbreaking because
00:18:56.53\00:19:00.14
predators watch that and then
they come in and they use that
00:19:00.14\00:19:04.04
for one, because they
don't believe you anyway.
00:19:04.04\00:19:06.61
They don't listen to you anyway.
00:19:07.48\00:19:08.81
Right?
00:19:09.08\00:19:13.25
right?
00:19:13.48\00:19:17.92
things.
00:19:17.92\00:19:18.32
Right?
00:19:18.52\00:19:21.59
that we're talking to them,
because that's the way grandma
00:19:21.59\00:19:23.63
and grandpa spoke to us or how
we were raised that I'm giving
00:19:23.63\00:19:27.56
my children over on a silver
because they're desperately
00:19:27.56\00:19:30.27
looking for someone to
treat them with respect.
00:19:30.27\00:19:32.20
Yeah.
00:19:32.67\00:19:35.60
say.
00:19:35.60\00:19:35.80
Remember the disciples
were like, get those kids out of
00:19:36.91\00:19:39.44
here.
00:19:39.44\00:19:40.61
It's like, wait, wait, wait,
wait, wait, suffer the little
00:19:41.01\00:19:43.01
children to come unto
me for such as the kingdom.
00:19:43.01\00:19:45.65
And then over and over in
Jesus's teachings, he says, you
00:19:46.05\00:19:49.55
must become as little children.
00:19:49.55\00:19:51.52
And we can't forget that
in that social economic time,
00:19:51.55\00:19:55.72
children were the most
vulnerable, a part of the most
00:19:55.82\00:19:59.19
vulnerable.
00:19:59.19\00:20:04.43
wrath.
00:20:04.43\00:20:04.70
Right?
00:20:05.27\00:20:10.01
speech should be
seasoned with grace.
00:20:10.01\00:20:11.71
And that's not only when you're
talking to the pastor, that's
00:20:11.91\00:20:14.38
not only when you're talking
to one of the elders or the
00:20:14.38\00:20:16.31
deacons in the church or
the deaconess, it should be also
00:20:16.31\00:20:19.88
when we're
speaking to one another.
00:20:19.88\00:20:21.32
And then of course, Paul says,
speaking the truth and love.
00:20:21.32\00:20:26.19
Right?
00:20:26.79\00:20:30.66
Yeah.
00:20:31.06\00:20:31.33
Go ahead.
00:20:31.43\00:20:32.09
You said something that really
touched me, but I can just
00:20:32.63\00:20:34.86
confess.
00:20:34.86\00:20:35.26
So we're, we're pastoral
families and boy, that's
00:20:36.10\00:20:39.40
something I wish we had
some time to talk about.
00:20:39.40\00:20:41.30
Let's just, yeah.
00:20:41.54\00:20:42.44
Well, my kids would get on
me about, so I'm sitting in
00:20:44.21\00:20:47.58
church, you know, and
somebody's kid just go cutting
00:20:47.58\00:20:50.58
across the church,
you know, something.
00:20:50.58\00:20:52.11
And I'm like, hey,
get that young man.
00:20:52.41\00:20:56.82
And my kids are like, daddy,
if you would, yes, I would.
00:20:57.92\00:21:04.83
So talk to us about that.
00:21:07.30\00:21:08.93
Cause you said the kids are
watching and you said, don't
00:21:09.03\00:21:12.73
treat other kids better
than to help us, help us out.
00:21:12.73\00:21:15.47
Yeah.
00:21:15.57\00:21:19.81
having this conversation about
this new wave of what they call
00:21:19.81\00:21:22.11
gentle parenting.
00:21:22.11\00:21:22.88
Right?
00:21:23.31\00:21:23.45
And I guess, you know, it's
this, this idea and we call it
00:21:24.55\00:21:27.28
the pendulum.
00:21:27.28\00:21:30.02
left.
00:21:30.02\00:21:32.85
were like, man, it's like,
they're sitting in church and
00:21:32.85\00:21:35.19
kids are just like, you know,
having a field day and when we
00:21:35.19\00:21:39.39
were little, we were popped
and we were something, you know,
00:21:39.39\00:21:41.10
and one of the comments
that they made, and I, and I
00:21:41.13\00:21:43.40
understood right,
what they were saying.
00:21:43.40\00:21:45.00
They said, you know, when
we were younger, you know, that
00:21:45.27\00:21:47.97
when we see what they say,
when they see someone, their
00:21:47.97\00:21:50.14
children are sitting there
and they're quiet, they look at
00:21:50.14\00:21:52.04
that person, they say, man,
those are good parents, right?
00:21:52.04\00:21:54.51
Their children, they're
raising their children well.
00:21:54.74\00:21:56.28
And I said, you want
to be careful with that.
00:21:56.48\00:21:59.65
But just because a child is
perceivably well behaved, it
00:22:01.22\00:22:04.65
doesn't mean it's because
their parents are good parents.
00:22:04.65\00:22:06.72
Some of us are just really
good at instilling fear into our
00:22:07.59\00:22:10.99
children.
00:22:10.99\00:22:15.26
know, because you can't reason
with a kid too much, you know,
00:22:15.26\00:22:17.87
when they're a little, but
there's a difference between,
00:22:17.87\00:22:21.80
you know,
instilling fear, right?
00:22:21.80\00:22:23.77
And this, this, this idea
of like, listen, you know, the
00:22:23.84\00:22:27.18
respect and honor part, right?
00:22:27.18\00:22:28.38
Versus me having control.
00:22:28.78\00:22:30.31
And I love for people to think
I have control because they see
00:22:30.31\00:22:32.91
my children not doing anything.
00:22:32.91\00:22:34.18
I know plenty of children
who you could talk to today who
00:22:34.42\00:22:37.02
would tell you that at
home it is literally horrible.
00:22:37.02\00:22:40.52
So they don't act up because
they know if they were to act
00:22:41.16\00:22:44.03
up, they would be beaten or
mistreated or something like
00:22:44.03\00:22:46.29
that.
00:22:46.29\00:22:46.56
Right?
00:22:46.56\00:22:46.59
I think that when we talk
about the pendulum of swing that
00:22:50.77\00:22:53.10
we're in right now, the gentle
parenting is because at one
00:22:53.10\00:22:55.47
point in time, we were swinging
all the way over to the, oh, we
00:22:55.47\00:22:58.57
didn't talk about anything,
no extension cords, you know,
00:22:58.57\00:23:01.61
shoes, you know, or people
being abused and we couldn't
00:23:02.01\00:23:05.25
talk about it or say anything
about it because it was cliche,
00:23:05.25\00:23:08.58
right?
00:23:08.85\00:23:12.12
it's like, oh, we just let the
kids do whatever you're here.
00:23:12.12\00:23:14.62
Get them the
mic, let them preach.
00:23:14.69\00:23:15.79
It's like, no,
but finding a balance.
00:23:16.09\00:23:18.03
And as you've been here, I
remember being a pastoral wife.
00:23:18.43\00:23:21.80
My husband was always, is
always in the pulpit and me
00:23:22.10\00:23:25.07
with the babies.
00:23:25.07\00:23:25.70
Right?
00:23:25.90\00:23:26.47
That's a hard space to be in.
00:23:26.60\00:23:28.34
You know what I'm saying?
00:23:28.50\00:23:31.61
straight because you're
tired and you're not getting any
00:23:31.61\00:23:33.74
sleep.
00:23:33.74\00:23:38.01
different stages
that parenting, you know?
00:23:38.01\00:23:41.22
And, um, yeah.
00:23:41.75\00:23:48.29
we exist in a, in a
context where people expect us.
00:23:48.56\00:23:53.40
And this is not just pastoral.
00:23:53.43\00:23:55.10
I think it's, you know,
um, in, in Christianity, um, in
00:23:55.16\00:24:00.34
general, and more specifically
Seventh-day Adventist
00:24:00.34\00:24:03.77
Christianity, there's an
expectation of things being
00:24:03.77\00:24:07.11
done.
00:24:07.11\00:24:07.64
We have so much counsel.
00:24:07.64\00:24:09.84
If you're not doing it right,
then you are not following
00:24:11.71\00:24:16.18
counsel.
00:24:16.18\00:24:16.79
You are not
raising your kids right.
00:24:17.25\00:24:19.69
And none of us
wants to be seen that way.
00:24:20.22\00:24:23.29
And so, but unfortunately a
lot of our parenting is based on
00:24:23.96\00:24:29.36
fear of being
seen as a bad parent.
00:24:29.36\00:24:32.57
And what that does is it
actually, it actually robs my
00:24:33.54\00:24:39.07
children of the privilege
of being parented the way they
00:24:39.07\00:24:43.21
deserve to be parented because
I'm more concerned, not about
00:24:43.21\00:24:48.12
them, but about
what other people think.
00:24:48.12\00:24:50.42
Yeah.
00:24:51.25\00:24:51.49
So easy, so easy.
00:24:52.59\00:24:53.86
And so, um, our children, by
the grace of God, they should,
00:24:53.99\00:24:57.99
they should, they should be
able to say, you know, my dad,
00:24:58.49\00:25:03.83
my mom are as gracious
to us as they are to others.
00:25:03.97\00:25:09.20
And I want to speak to
something because I think we
00:25:10.14\00:25:12.31
don't talk about it often.
00:25:12.31\00:25:13.41
Um, you know, ministry
families, particularly ministry
00:25:14.11\00:25:16.75
children need a
lot of ministering too.
00:25:16.75\00:25:19.51
Yes.
00:25:19.51\00:25:19.55
different reasons.
00:25:23.45\00:25:24.09
And they are last on the list.
00:25:24.25\00:25:26.42
And I remember one day someone
came to my daughter many, many
00:25:26.42\00:25:29.19
years ago and they came and
said, you know, you're, you're
00:25:29.19\00:25:32.03
a pastor's kid.
00:25:32.03\00:25:33.26
You need, you need to,
you need to, you know, better.
00:25:33.60\00:25:35.16
Right.
00:25:35.16\00:25:35.20
say, listen, don't ever
approach my kid that way.
00:25:38.17\00:25:40.94
Right.
00:25:40.94\00:25:44.44
mature in their walk
as any other kid does.
00:25:44.44\00:25:47.58
And you know, the proverbial
thoughts about pastoral kids,
00:25:47.58\00:25:47.61
PKs, right?
00:25:50.75\00:25:51.45
There's something else I
want people to consider that
00:25:51.91\00:25:54.78
children.
00:25:55.35\00:26:00.92
grew up as pastoral kids,
who want nothing to do with God.
00:26:00.92\00:26:03.49
And people think it's because
the, no, it's because those
00:26:04.06\00:26:07.00
children went through a lot and
they saw a lot and they went,
00:26:07.00\00:26:09.90
they experienced a lot of
things that people don't know
00:26:10.13\00:26:12.87
about.
00:26:12.87\00:26:16.97
Even though being present, they
didn't get the emotion and the
00:26:17.11\00:26:19.84
love and the attention,
you pressure to, because the
00:26:19.84\00:26:26.75
pastor's family is supposed to.
00:26:26.75\00:26:29.48
Yeah.
00:26:29.48\00:26:29.88
And we apply it.
00:26:29.88\00:26:30.99
Yeah.
00:26:31.12\00:26:33.25
Listen, you're a pastor's kid.
00:26:34.92\00:26:37.19
You need to.
00:26:37.43\00:26:38.23
And of course we're not
giving them license to wild out.
00:26:38.63\00:26:41.40
Right.
00:26:41.66\00:26:42.03
Absolutely not.
00:26:42.10\00:26:42.50
But again, help us
out, say something to us.
00:26:43.10\00:26:44.77
We can learn by heart.
00:26:44.77\00:26:45.60
What do you say to that?
00:26:45.87\00:26:47.20
Yeah.
00:26:47.24\00:26:51.81
when we can put our fingers
on it, when we can't, this is a,
00:26:51.81\00:26:55.14
this is for us, it's a sign of,
of emotional spiritual health.
00:26:55.14\00:27:00.48
Yeah.
00:27:00.52\00:27:05.02
Christian principle.
00:27:05.02\00:27:05.89
We don't encourage
people to just pray.
00:27:06.65\00:27:09.62
I mean, pray whatever you do.
00:27:09.79\00:27:11.29
If you pray, that's good.
00:27:11.29\00:27:12.49
But we say it's best if
you pray and you ask God for
00:27:13.03\00:27:19.77
forgiveness of specific sins.
00:27:19.77\00:27:22.30
I just, Oh Lord,
forgive me for my sins.
00:27:22.50\00:27:25.17
Amen.
00:27:25.37\00:27:25.64
Man, that was a rough one.
00:27:26.34\00:27:27.51
But no, God, I was unkind.
00:27:27.78\00:27:30.01
God, I was impatient.
00:27:30.18\00:27:31.48
Yeah.
00:27:31.91\00:27:34.48
So likewise, when we are
speaking with our children, we
00:27:34.65\00:27:38.35
can say, Hey, listen, you know,
I realized God brought to my
00:27:38.35\00:27:43.79
attention that I put a
lot of pressure on you.
00:27:43.79\00:27:46.83
And I spoke to you and I, I
realized that that could have
00:27:47.50\00:27:52.43
given you the impression that
I was more concerned about how
00:27:52.43\00:27:56.07
people saw me and our
family than what your actual
00:27:56.07\00:27:59.31
experience was.
00:27:59.31\00:28:00.41
And I want to apologize for
that because I love you and so
00:28:00.61\00:28:04.28
forth and so on.
00:28:04.28\00:28:05.35
When we can put our
fingers on what people are, have
00:28:05.41\00:28:10.45
experienced and what they may
have felt, then what it does is
00:28:10.45\00:28:15.52
it helps them to
understand my mom or my dad.
00:28:15.52\00:28:19.19
They get me.
00:28:19.79\00:28:20.86
Yeah.
00:28:21.23\00:28:26.10
man, that hit home.
00:28:26.10\00:28:28.27
Yeah.
00:28:28.80\00:28:33.94
families, with anyone else
acknowledging so that you can
00:28:33.94\00:28:39.55
make that change.
00:28:39.55\00:28:40.65
Yes.
00:28:41.28\00:28:41.32
Yes.
00:28:41.88\00:28:44.79
there may be
somebody watching, right?
00:28:45.29\00:28:47.29
Who is that PK?
00:28:47.29\00:28:47.32
You know, I don't know
how often they're addressed or
00:28:48.76\00:28:51.43
they're talked to, but just
to be able to talk to them for a
00:28:51.43\00:28:54.60
moment and just to express
to you that you are seen and you
00:28:54.60\00:28:57.90
are her.
00:28:57.90\00:29:02.20
one that is being given the
attention or the one that is
00:29:02.20\00:29:06.27
being prayed for, or there are
things that you've experienced
00:29:06.27\00:29:09.24
that no one will
ever know about, right?
00:29:09.24\00:29:10.95
There are abuses and
things that have taken place,
00:29:10.95\00:29:13.68
unfortunately, right?
00:29:13.82\00:29:15.12
And on this planet, even within
our churches, that maybe you
00:29:15.15\00:29:18.22
have experienced or things
that people have come to you and
00:29:18.22\00:29:20.89
told you about your parents
or things you've heard your
00:29:20.89\00:29:23.59
parents say, and PK is live in
a very interesting world, but I
00:29:23.59\00:29:27.10
want you to know that you are
seen, that God loves you, that
00:29:27.10\00:29:30.43
your experience is accounted
for, and I pray for your
00:29:30.43\00:29:33.87
healing, that it is possible
to heal from that experience if
00:29:33.87\00:29:37.71
you are that person and
know that it wasn't because you
00:29:37.71\00:29:40.41
didn't matter, right?
00:29:40.41\00:29:41.64
Or because no
one cares about you.
00:29:41.78\00:29:43.28
God loves you and you are still
on his mind, and I'm praying
00:29:43.31\00:29:46.72
that you are able to reconcile
in your relationship with the
00:29:46.72\00:29:50.29
Lord, even if you are still
attending and going, but you
00:29:50.29\00:29:53.52
still have that resentment
in the back of your head.
00:29:53.52\00:29:55.39
God loves you and
he loves your family.
00:29:55.62\00:29:57.83
We do have another
question from Antigua.
00:29:58.93\00:30:04.40
It says, when someone says
they're in a dark place, what
00:30:04.77\00:30:08.90
do they really mean?
00:30:08.90\00:30:09.87
That's an interesting question.
00:30:12.31\00:30:13.64
I couldn't tell you because
every person is different,
00:30:13.84\00:30:16.04
right?
00:30:16.04\00:30:20.48
expressing this
type of language.
00:30:20.48\00:30:21.75
When people say they're in a
dark place, oftentimes what we
00:30:21.95\00:30:24.85
are trying to understand about
that language is that you don't
00:30:24.85\00:30:27.82
want to ignore it, right?
00:30:27.82\00:30:29.26
That means coming alongside
them, taking them to go get
00:30:29.49\00:30:33.09
some help, probing to figure
out what may have happened or
00:30:33.09\00:30:36.33
what is happening
that has led to this space.
00:30:36.33\00:30:38.97
What you don't want to do
is you don't want to shut them
00:30:39.23\00:30:41.07
down or ignore them.
00:30:41.07\00:30:42.10
You don't want to say, oh, this
is just regular conversation.
00:30:42.30\00:30:44.51
You want to make sure because
mental health is very real and
00:30:44.74\00:30:47.98
it is and so when you hear
someone speak those things or
00:30:47.98\00:30:51.71
say those things, take them
seriously and try as much as
00:30:51.71\00:30:55.72
far as possible to encourage
them to get help of some sort,
00:30:55.72\00:30:58.69
talk to someone.
00:30:58.69\00:30:58.72
what do you mean
when you say that?
00:31:03.26\00:31:05.43
And if they don't have that
vocabulary that you're talking
00:31:05.66\00:31:08.63
about, should we pull out that
emotion wheel and try to get
00:31:08.63\00:31:13.50
them to walk
through their feelings?
00:31:13.50\00:31:16.07
Well, let's do an exercise.
00:31:16.07\00:31:17.17
So you're there and we,
hey, I'm in a dark place.
00:31:17.31\00:31:20.71
Yeah.
00:31:21.21\00:31:24.98
People need to feel
comfortable with you.
00:31:25.01\00:31:27.22
So we can assume that
just because they've come and
00:31:27.35\00:31:29.78
they've said it,
right, that they trust you.
00:31:29.78\00:31:31.82
Sometimes people are
just in a moment of spilling.
00:31:31.85\00:31:34.16
So I like to sit down with
someone in a private space,
00:31:34.46\00:31:37.36
right?
00:31:37.39\00:31:40.40
I like to open it up
and let them get to know me.
00:31:40.70\00:31:44.60
Right.
00:31:45.20\00:31:49.97
match them, but you know, I've
been in that space before in my
00:31:49.97\00:31:53.14
life as well.
00:31:53.14\00:31:56.08
So I want you to
know you're not alone.
00:31:56.18\00:31:57.45
Right.
00:31:57.85\00:31:58.21
What do you want?
00:31:58.58\00:32:01.28
is that you mean?
00:32:01.28\00:32:01.88
Do you need help explaining?
00:32:01.95\00:32:02.85
The emotion wheel
may be a good thing.
00:32:03.05\00:32:05.69
Right.
00:32:05.69\00:32:08.22
into their heads.
00:32:08.22\00:32:08.82
Right.
00:32:09.09\00:32:11.63
You gave an example
of implanting thoughts.
00:32:11.73\00:32:13.86
What we don't want to do.
00:32:13.90\00:32:15.03
Well, you don't want to tell
someone how they're feeling.
00:32:15.06\00:32:16.46
Right.
00:32:16.73\00:32:18.93
And if you want clarity,
you can ask, is it right that I
00:32:19.07\00:32:21.87
hear you saying?
00:32:21.87\00:32:22.67
Okay.
00:32:22.77\00:32:23.14
All right.
00:32:23.37\00:32:23.77
Is this right?
00:32:23.77\00:32:28.14
depressed?
00:32:28.14\00:32:30.01
Or are you feeling frustrated?
00:32:30.31\00:32:31.81
Can you clear that up for me?
00:32:31.98\00:32:33.25
And you're giving them space
to give you clarity, not you
00:32:33.25\00:32:36.15
telling them.
00:32:36.15\00:32:39.12
again, in this world that
we're living in, in this mental
00:32:39.12\00:32:41.59
health space that we're living
in, a lot of times, you know,
00:32:41.59\00:32:44.83
people can come into
spaces looking for help.
00:32:44.93\00:32:46.66
And sometimes the people
looking for help can tap into
00:32:47.00\00:32:50.57
something within
us that's not healed.
00:32:50.57\00:32:52.07
Do you
understand what I'm saying?
00:32:52.67\00:32:53.50
And so that's why we have to
be careful working on your own
00:32:54.24\00:32:57.84
healing so that you're not
implanting your own pain and
00:32:57.84\00:33:00.48
your own into people's minds.
00:33:00.48\00:33:02.24
Right.
00:33:02.61\00:33:05.15
about what they're feeling.
00:33:05.15\00:33:06.18
And sometimes that
won't happen in one sitting.
00:33:06.38\00:33:08.95
It's okay not to get
all the answers right away.
00:33:09.25\00:33:11.35
Right.
00:33:11.55\00:33:13.69
You know what?
00:33:13.72\00:33:17.29
but let's come back
and let's talk again.
00:33:17.29\00:33:17.33
Okay.
00:33:19.86\00:33:20.20
You know?
00:33:20.20\00:33:20.26
Yeah.
00:33:20.50\00:33:23.80
have you been feeling like
you've been in this dark place?
00:33:23.80\00:33:26.47
And, um, depending on how to
answer, I would go from there.
00:33:26.47\00:33:30.57
You know, did, did something
happen, you know, was this, you
00:33:30.64\00:33:35.11
know, was this triggered by
an event in your life and asking
00:33:35.11\00:33:39.71
them about those types of
things just to get, get some
00:33:39.71\00:33:42.92
clarity.
00:33:42.92\00:33:43.55
And are you having
thoughts of suicide?
00:33:43.82\00:33:45.75
Are you having
thoughts of harming yourself?
00:33:45.89\00:33:47.22
That's very
important to get clarity.
00:33:47.22\00:33:49.02
Right.
00:33:49.19\00:33:49.99
Um, so what do you
mean in a dark place?
00:33:50.13\00:33:52.09
Have you, do you
have a plan, right?
00:33:52.13\00:33:53.80
Is there a plan in
place to harm yourself?
00:33:53.93\00:33:56.10
What is that plan?
00:33:56.36\00:33:57.27
So those, those are some
of the things that you can do.
00:33:57.60\00:34:00.20
Yeah.
00:34:00.37\00:34:00.77
Oh, what is that plan?
00:34:01.57\00:34:03.37
Yes.
00:34:03.61\00:34:04.01
Okay.
00:34:04.14\00:34:04.61
That's interesting.
00:34:04.67\00:34:08.31
in grad school.
00:34:08.31\00:34:11.25
hearing that.
00:34:11.25\00:34:14.35
would say, what is it?
00:34:14.35\00:34:15.42
Yes.
00:34:15.42\00:34:18.09
If I may, because there are
times when people, there are
00:34:18.12\00:34:22.72
times we all
have thoughts, right?
00:34:22.72\00:34:25.46
About life and about depression
and different things of that
00:34:25.93\00:34:28.93
nature.
00:34:28.93\00:34:33.44
that seriously.
00:34:33.44\00:34:34.47
That means that we're not
leaving this place at this
00:34:34.57\00:34:37.11
moment without ensuring
that we get you some help.
00:34:37.11\00:34:39.51
Okay.
00:34:40.61\00:34:41.11
Okay.
00:34:42.01\00:34:42.04
Yeah.
00:34:43.04\00:34:49.52
see what the
Lord says about this.
00:34:49.52\00:34:52.29
So imagine a couple that is
at home and they have a family,
00:34:53.42\00:34:57.49
just a couple of kids, let's
say high school age, and there
00:34:57.79\00:35:01.66
has been infidelity in the
house and they have decided to
00:35:01.66\00:35:06.97
try to preserve the marriage.
00:35:06.97\00:35:08.77
Please address the
person who needs to forgive.
00:35:09.97\00:35:13.64
And it's really hard to do and
the person who is seeking to be
00:35:13.68\00:35:19.18
forgiven and they're wanting to
be, say, a spiritual leader in
00:35:19.18\00:35:23.55
the home.
00:35:23.55\00:35:25.89
every single time they do
the one whom they wronged is
00:35:25.89\00:35:30.13
looking at the miscance.
00:35:30.13\00:35:31.29
And it's just, and they
feel like it's just not working.
00:35:31.33\00:35:35.03
Talk to us.
00:35:35.20\00:35:36.40
This is actually a really
great question because, or a
00:35:37.70\00:35:41.34
conversation, because I
know that are many people who
00:35:41.34\00:35:44.04
experienced this.
00:35:44.04\00:35:45.04
One of the things that I would
speak to this couple, and if
00:35:46.01\00:35:50.75
you're both listening, right
on different perspectives, first
00:35:50.75\00:35:53.65
and foremost,
what is forgiveness?
00:35:53.65\00:35:55.42
There's a lot of different
definitions about what that is
00:35:56.52\00:35:59.52
and what that looks
like, what has to be done.
00:35:59.52\00:36:01.69
First and foremost, when you
have offended someone, right?
00:36:02.16\00:36:06.46
Forgiveness only
requires one person.
00:36:06.96\00:36:09.03
Reconciliation, however,
requires the agreement of two.
00:36:09.86\00:36:12.27
So what do we mean
when we say that to people?
00:36:13.17\00:36:15.74
So it's possible for one
person to forgive the other, to
00:36:16.67\00:36:21.94
forgive the other party, but
reconciliation doesn't, doesn't
00:36:21.94\00:36:26.05
take place.
00:36:26.05\00:36:30.19
everything should be okay.
00:36:30.19\00:36:31.42
Well, that's, that's
not necessarily the case.
00:36:31.72\00:36:34.99
One person may have
legitimately and authentically
00:36:35.12\00:36:38.39
forgiven, but the other person
may not either recognize what
00:36:38.39\00:36:43.80
the wrong is that they've
done or the offense that's been
00:36:43.80\00:36:48.14
committed and reconciliation
might not be a wise thing in
00:36:48.14\00:36:52.87
that context without
this individual actually
00:36:52.87\00:36:55.84
acknowledging that,
Hey, this was wrong.
00:36:55.84\00:36:58.85
Like I had no
business treating you this way.
00:36:58.85\00:37:01.32
I had no business
doing X, Y, and Z.
00:37:01.32\00:37:03.79
It's, it has caused
friction and the erosion of our
00:37:04.09\00:37:07.26
relationship.
00:37:07.26\00:37:11.86
things.
00:37:11.86\00:37:12.16
And in between both of those
is this very interesting word
00:37:13.03\00:37:15.26
called trust.
00:37:15.26\00:37:15.96
Right?
00:37:17.07\00:37:20.14
And so I can forgive you
because forgiveness only harms,
00:37:20.94\00:37:24.41
unforgiveness only harms me.
00:37:24.71\00:37:25.97
Right?
00:37:26.37\00:37:27.84
Resentment and bitterness
and anger, frustration and all
00:37:28.14\00:37:30.71
those things is poison to me.
00:37:30.71\00:37:32.45
Right?
00:37:32.58\00:37:36.82
being able to
actually live whole.
00:37:36.82\00:37:38.25
However, when it comes to
reconciling, there needs to be
00:37:38.69\00:37:42.49
some tangible evidences, right?
00:37:42.49\00:37:45.23
Of trust, being able to be
rebuilt, fruits, fruits, right?
00:37:45.76\00:37:49.90
And so, um, first and foremost,
this, this word keeps coming up
00:37:50.90\00:37:54.54
tonight, right?
00:37:54.54\00:37:55.00
Acknowledgement.
00:37:55.37\00:37:55.87
Okay.
00:37:56.24\00:37:56.50
Right.
00:37:56.50\00:37:56.54
Um, can you imagine infidelity
happening in a person refusing
00:37:57.91\00:38:01.14
to acknowledge?
00:38:01.14\00:38:01.91
Yes.
00:38:02.24\00:38:02.71
Or maybe they're
being dismissive.
00:38:03.08\00:38:04.65
Yeah.
00:38:04.65\00:38:04.68
talked about before.
00:38:08.42\00:38:09.25
It's one thing to
say, I know I messed up.
00:38:09.78\00:38:12.02
I know I messed up, man.
00:38:12.55\00:38:13.52
Can we, can we, you
know, can we get past this?
00:38:13.62\00:38:16.99
It's another thing to say when
there's infidelity, I realize
00:38:17.73\00:38:24.27
that when I chose to
step outside of, you know, the
00:38:24.27\00:38:29.17
confines of our, um, marital
covenant, that it violated your
00:38:29.17\00:38:35.08
trust.
00:38:35.08\00:38:35.61
It broke your heart in
ways that I can't even fully
00:38:36.54\00:38:39.18
imagine.
00:38:39.18\00:38:39.81
You know, I undermined all
the work that we were putting.
00:38:40.52\00:38:44.65
What am I doing?
00:38:44.85\00:38:45.52
I'm not just giving a broad
statement, but I'm actually
00:38:46.05\00:38:49.99
identifying, pinpointing
ways in which my actions have
00:38:49.99\00:38:55.96
actually affected you
and our family, right?
00:38:55.96\00:38:59.43
I, realize that my infidelity
has caused a state of anxiety.
00:38:59.87\00:39:05.47
You don't know whether
you'll be able to trust me.
00:39:05.71\00:39:08.64
You don't know if when I
say, oh, this was the only time
00:39:09.04\00:39:12.51
whether I'm telling the truth
or not, because I've been lying
00:39:12.51\00:39:15.48
to you all of these times.
00:39:15.48\00:39:16.45
So the acknowledgement of those
things and not just, I know I
00:39:16.82\00:39:21.09
did wrong and I shouldn't
have done it, but actually
00:39:21.09\00:39:22.96
identifying the ways in which
this has affected the family
00:39:24.16\00:39:27.60
and the marriage in particular.
00:39:27.60\00:39:29.36
And that
powerful word again, why?
00:39:29.36\00:39:32.17
Because there's a reason
why the infidelity happened.
00:39:33.07\00:39:36.30
There's a reason why you
made the decision to do such a
00:39:36.37\00:39:39.11
thing, right?
00:39:39.11\00:39:42.21
Why did you do it?
00:39:42.41\00:39:43.21
Why did you do it?
00:39:43.21\00:39:43.71
Are you self-aware?
00:39:43.71\00:39:44.75
Do you know what triggered
you to make such a decision?
00:39:44.88\00:39:46.92
Does that self-awareness?
00:39:47.18\00:39:48.32
Yeah.
00:39:48.32\00:39:50.19
Yes.
00:39:50.59\00:39:50.92
Absolutely.
00:39:50.99\00:39:51.15
Absolutely.
00:39:51.49\00:39:51.79
Which is so, important.
00:39:52.22\00:39:53.89
Oftentimes the individual
who has, you know, who has not
00:39:54.12\00:40:00.96
committed the act of
unfaithfulness, but is dealing
00:40:00.96\00:40:03.93
with the person who has,
they really want to know why.
00:40:03.93\00:40:07.84
Yeah.
00:40:07.84\00:40:08.37
Yeah.
00:40:08.37\00:40:09.04
Because of
precisely what you said.
00:40:09.24\00:40:10.84
Right.
00:40:10.87\00:40:16.34
confident that it's
not going to happen again?
00:40:16.34\00:40:19.05
You know, and so, but the
reality is that the person who
00:40:19.05\00:40:24.32
was offended is
not always aware.
00:40:24.32\00:40:26.59
There's a, what I, what we like
to talk about is there's a lot
00:40:27.79\00:40:31.06
of heart searching that's
necessary because we don't know
00:40:31.06\00:40:34.10
why we just, it's like, you ask
your little child, hey, why did
00:40:34.10\00:40:38.87
you do that?
00:40:38.87\00:40:39.70
And they're
like, uh, I don't know.
00:40:39.73\00:40:41.30
And they're telling the truth.
00:40:41.50\00:40:42.67
A lot of times they don't know,
but we have to take a walk with
00:40:42.77\00:40:46.07
the Holy Spirit, the 139th
Psalm, you know, search me, oh
00:40:46.07\00:40:50.75
God, and try my thoughts.
00:40:50.75\00:40:52.98
See if there's any
wicked way within me.
00:40:53.25\00:40:55.48
And that heart search, I think
I've said this here before, is
00:40:55.75\00:40:59.79
not for the benefit of God,
but it's for the benefit of us.
00:40:59.79\00:41:04.06
Right.
00:41:04.53\00:41:07.93
we're quite frankly unaware of.
00:41:07.93\00:41:09.80
And as he reveals those things
to us, oh, this, this is an
00:41:09.96\00:41:15.94
area I didn't
even think about that.
00:41:15.94\00:41:17.84
And I would suggest an openness
in that process as God is
00:41:18.24\00:41:22.94
sharing with me, if I've
offended my wife and I've
00:41:22.94\00:41:25.68
stepped or broken our covenant,
as God is revealing things to
00:41:25.68\00:41:29.65
me, then I'm sharing those
things with her, you know, in a
00:41:29.65\00:41:33.79
way that perhaps
I have not before.
00:41:33.79\00:41:35.42
Or a wife that has offended
their husband, because that's
00:41:35.42\00:41:35.46
going to, that's going to help
to rebuild trust is this level
00:41:39.63\00:41:45.33
of openness and honesty
that for whatever reason may not
00:41:45.33\00:41:48.24
have been there before.
00:41:48.24\00:41:49.27
So that acknowledgement and
communication will help rebuild
00:41:49.44\00:41:53.27
the trust.
00:41:53.27\00:41:53.78
And it takes time.
00:41:54.08\00:41:55.14
I want to say this too.
00:41:55.24\00:41:56.14
I can't, some, some have
suggested that for me to say,
00:41:57.05\00:42:01.15
yes, I was unfaithful to you.
00:42:01.35\00:42:03.18
Do you forgive me?
00:42:03.59\00:42:05.05
No.
00:42:05.22\00:42:05.79
I'm just telling the truth.
00:42:06.69\00:42:08.26
Some have suggested that for
me to ask her to forgive me is
00:42:09.72\00:42:17.63
manipulative.
00:42:17.63\00:42:18.60
Why?
00:42:20.94\00:42:21.77
Because I can't
force you to forgive me.
00:42:22.34\00:42:24.97
Now I can use the idea that,
well, you're a Christian and
00:42:24.97\00:42:29.11
aren't you supposed to?
00:42:29.11\00:42:30.11
I can do that.
00:42:30.51\00:42:31.68
But the reality is, you
know, she has to process through
00:42:31.68\00:42:31.71
this.
00:42:35.48\00:42:35.92
God has to bring
her to that point.
00:42:36.32\00:42:38.02
And am I the one who should
really be coming to her and
00:42:38.09\00:42:42.29
saying, you need to forgive me?
00:42:42.29\00:42:43.59
No, you need it to
remain faithful to me.
00:42:44.33\00:42:47.03
You know what I'm saying?
00:42:47.23\00:42:51.10
doesn't work out, because I
asked for forgiveness and just
00:42:51.10\00:42:54.14
couldn't do it.
00:42:54.14\00:42:54.97
Let's break that down.
00:42:54.97\00:42:56.10
Even if it's being redundant,
how does one avoid that?
00:42:56.34\00:42:59.87
What is the proper way to seek
reconciliation and forgiveness?
00:43:00.34\00:43:04.31
Acknowledgement.
00:43:04.71\00:43:05.31
Acknowledgement.
00:43:05.61\00:43:09.98
-aware, right?
00:43:09.98\00:43:11.15
The what and the why of what
led to this thing to happen.
00:43:11.15\00:43:13.72
And you too being able to have
honest and open conversations
00:43:14.22\00:43:17.59
about that, giving one another
space to be able to do that
00:43:17.59\00:43:21.13
personal work, right?
00:43:21.13\00:43:22.10
And this is one of the
things we both believe.
00:43:22.26\00:43:25.70
I believe that if two people
are willing to do the work,
00:43:25.93\00:43:29.37
they can survive
things like that.
00:43:29.84\00:43:31.27
They can survive
things like that.
00:43:31.64\00:43:33.24
But it takes work.
00:43:33.31\00:43:34.41
It takes work.
00:43:34.71\00:43:35.41
And I'm not saying that time is
the elixir that's going to fix
00:43:36.31\00:43:40.92
everything.
00:43:40.92\00:43:41.38
Time has never healed a thing.
00:43:41.62\00:43:43.92
It's doing the work.
00:43:44.62\00:43:45.79
But it takes patience.
00:43:45.79\00:43:47.12
If I want to be forgiven and I
want someone to invest trust in
00:43:47.56\00:43:54.83
me, I'm going to have to
be patient because of the
00:43:54.83\00:43:59.07
violation that's taking place.
00:43:59.07\00:44:01.27
And it's almost dismissive
if I'm like, okay, come on, it's
00:44:01.60\00:44:05.91
been whatever it's been.
00:44:05.91\00:44:07.28
Like, hurry up.
00:44:07.51\00:44:07.94
It's like, really?
00:44:08.01\00:44:09.71
I can't be dismissive of the
pain that I've brought to this
00:44:10.45\00:44:14.82
individual.
00:44:14.82\00:44:15.65
And while yes, I can, I can
desire hope and pray that, you
00:44:16.05\00:44:21.56
know, that trust is
rebuilt and so forth and so on.
00:44:21.56\00:44:24.19
I think I also should
have a level of in humility.
00:44:24.63\00:44:27.30
I should also be patient.
00:44:27.60\00:44:29.36
But likewise, because we would
be remiss if we wouldn't say
00:44:30.37\00:44:32.97
this, that there are times when
there are people who are doing
00:44:32.97\00:44:36.40
the work and they have repented
and they have become self-aware
00:44:36.40\00:44:40.24
and they have done all that.
00:44:40.24\00:44:41.38
And it's me who is still
holding onto the unforgiveness
00:44:41.38\00:44:44.51
and I'm carrying my sword
throughout the house, chopping
00:44:44.51\00:44:47.02
up everybody.
00:44:47.02\00:44:47.55
Like I'm going to
make you remember this.
00:44:47.95\00:44:50.25
And I told him, I was like, you
know, you're going to remember.
00:44:50.39\00:44:53.46
However, you got
to work on that too.
00:44:54.52\00:44:56.69
So for the person who
has been offended, right?
00:44:56.69\00:44:58.99
To spend the rest of your life
trying to punish someone who
00:44:59.19\00:45:02.53
has done the work, right?
00:45:02.53\00:45:04.43
Who has done the work and
who is truly doing the work to
00:45:04.67\00:45:07.70
reconcile, you got to make a
decision of what's important to
00:45:07.70\00:45:10.71
hold on to.
00:45:10.71\00:45:13.41
Okay.
00:45:14.14\00:45:17.38
Some of these heavy ones here.
00:45:17.75\00:45:19.88
What about in the
case of spousal abuse?
00:45:20.38\00:45:23.28
How do we reconcile that if the
abuse continues, at what point
00:45:24.29\00:45:30.86
should you is it ever?
00:45:30.86\00:45:32.63
I'm sorry.
00:45:32.86\00:45:33.60
I mean, is it
ever biblical to leave?
00:45:33.73\00:45:35.86
Yes.
00:45:37.40\00:45:38.03
First of all, I would never
tell someone to stay in a home
00:45:38.63\00:45:41.07
where you are
being abused, right?
00:45:41.07\00:45:42.70
And the reason why I say that
is because, you know, there's a
00:45:42.74\00:45:47.04
lot of people who spiritually
manipulate in those particular
00:45:47.04\00:45:49.98
instances, right?
00:45:49.98\00:45:50.78
So I want to make it clear.
00:45:50.98\00:45:52.28
If you're being
abused, get help, right?
00:45:52.48\00:45:55.52
I would never encourage anyone
to sit and just continuously
00:45:55.88\00:45:59.85
allow themselves to be abused.
00:45:59.85\00:46:01.36
Is it possible for that
relationship to heal and for
00:46:01.99\00:46:06.46
people to
experience reconciliation?
00:46:06.46\00:46:07.66
The same thing we talked about
with the couple who deal with
00:46:07.86\00:46:10.23
infidelity.
00:46:10.23\00:46:10.70
The same thing can happen.
00:46:11.03\00:46:11.97
However, we're
talking about fruits, right?
00:46:12.17\00:46:13.67
There has to be fruit in
order for that to happen.
00:46:14.47\00:46:17.91
There has to be acknowledgement.
00:46:17.97\00:46:19.11
There has to be why.
00:46:19.37\00:46:20.41
There has to be get help.
00:46:20.61\00:46:21.64
Oh, another one,
accountability, right?
00:46:21.84\00:46:24.35
That's a very huge one, whether
it's an infidelity or in abuse,
00:46:24.55\00:46:28.45
right?
00:46:28.55\00:46:29.42
Somebody needs to be able
to hold you accountable, right?
00:46:29.75\00:46:33.25
Some things need to change.
00:46:33.89\00:46:35.09
Maybe you need a
brother or a sister, right?
00:46:35.19\00:46:38.19
Who's aware, because a lot
of silence happens in abuse,
00:46:38.29\00:46:41.06
right?
00:46:41.20\00:46:42.53
Well, abuse
thrives in silence, right?
00:46:42.83\00:46:45.50
So I think that it is also
finding people who you trust,
00:46:45.70\00:46:48.84
right?
00:46:49.10\00:46:51.77
is what you want to do,
which is save your marriage.
00:46:51.87\00:46:53.41
You need to get
some help, right?
00:46:53.58\00:46:55.28
And there needs to be avenues
for which you can do that.
00:46:55.28\00:46:58.25
That's powerful stuff.
00:46:59.28\00:47:00.58
It's also very powerful how you
said that being spiritual can
00:47:01.88\00:47:06.35
be used as a tool of abuse.
00:47:06.35\00:47:08.09
Absolutely.
00:47:08.96\00:47:12.86
throw one more in here.
00:47:12.86\00:47:14.00
One of the heavy ones here.
00:47:14.56\00:47:15.66
How about one of the kids is
an older teenager and they're
00:47:15.86\00:47:24.51
coming out of the closet.
00:47:24.51\00:47:25.51
How does the
parent work with that?
00:47:26.94\00:47:29.18
How does a Christian
parent deal with that?
00:47:29.58\00:47:33.45
You know, one of the things,
man, and this is juicy one to
00:47:34.12\00:47:37.25
throw in at the end, and
it, but I, but I appreciate the
00:47:37.25\00:47:41.52
conversation because I think
we're so in our, in our day and
00:47:41.52\00:47:44.29
age, we're so, it's almost
like we're a deer caught in
00:47:44.29\00:47:48.23
headlights, right?
00:47:48.23\00:47:49.20
In our churches and our
families, we're just terrified
00:47:49.40\00:47:51.63
of this LGBTQIA
plus thing, right?
00:47:51.63\00:47:54.47
What we found with a lot
of people is that a lot of the
00:47:54.84\00:47:57.57
things that we've been talking
about are the roots of that,
00:47:57.57\00:48:00.71
right?
00:48:00.71\00:48:00.74
that in their life is
because they really are that.
00:48:03.48\00:48:06.31
I think that because we have
been unable to talk about some
00:48:06.61\00:48:09.18
of the things that we just
talked about, whether it's the
00:48:09.18\00:48:11.22
things that children and people
have seen in the home, and this
00:48:11.22\00:48:14.19
is not to blame, right?
00:48:14.19\00:48:15.62
That your home must be horrible
and this is why your kid is
00:48:15.72\00:48:18.23
coming out this way, but we
become so overwhelmed with fear
00:48:18.23\00:48:21.70
because of this thing that it
stops us from being able to do
00:48:21.70\00:48:23.97
the very same thing that we
would do with anyone else who's
00:48:23.97\00:48:27.17
dealing with sin, right?
00:48:27.17\00:48:28.67
Boundaries are important,
but love is important too.
00:48:29.14\00:48:31.61
And you can love people
without, without agreeing with
00:48:31.81\00:48:34.74
their sin.
00:48:34.74\00:48:35.58
You can love people
and still have boundaries.
00:48:35.78\00:48:37.41
You can love them and walk with
them on a journey with their
00:48:37.41\00:48:40.08
addiction and getting them
help and all of these different
00:48:40.08\00:48:42.62
things.
00:48:42.62\00:48:46.72
to encourage
people to not be shaken.
00:48:46.72\00:48:50.29
And it's easier
said than done, right?
00:48:50.33\00:48:52.33
I am a firm believer that God
can reintroduce himself to his
00:48:52.69\00:48:56.56
people if they are given the
proper platform to be able to
00:48:56.56\00:48:59.77
heal.
00:48:59.77\00:49:00.47
And I think in churches,
what we've done is oftentimes we
00:49:01.07\00:49:03.77
have elevated this thing
so high that we've terrified
00:49:03.77\00:49:06.98
ourselves of it.
00:49:06.98\00:49:08.04
Well, if we do that, then how
are we going to be able to be a
00:49:08.58\00:49:12.51
witness, right?
00:49:12.51\00:49:13.68
We've experienced
that in our churches.
00:49:14.32\00:49:15.98
We've had parents who are
dealing with children who have
00:49:16.18\00:49:18.49
come out and guess what?
00:49:18.49\00:49:19.29
Bring that kid to church.
00:49:19.55\00:49:20.56
You know, let that kid
sit and listen to the gospel.
00:49:21.19\00:49:23.09
Because guess what?
00:49:23.22\00:49:27.93
pews.
00:49:27.93\00:49:31.43
pews.
00:49:31.43\00:49:34.00
So the same amount of work that
needs to be done in love needs
00:49:34.24\00:49:38.11
to be offered there
as well with boundaries.
00:49:38.11\00:49:39.84
Yeah, I would add to that.
00:49:40.04\00:49:41.28
We have to be mindful that,
you know, one of the one of the
00:49:41.41\00:49:47.08
selling points of the LGBT plus
community is they appear to be
00:49:47.08\00:49:54.59
extremely
welcoming and accepting.
00:49:54.59\00:49:56.99
And so and we mentioned
this earlier, a lot of us will
00:49:57.39\00:50:03.16
parent through that
situation out of our own shame.
00:50:03.16\00:50:06.27
Yes.
00:50:06.80\00:50:13.01
more to do with me and my fear
of how people are going to look
00:50:13.01\00:50:17.11
at me than it does about me
actually parenting my child as
00:50:17.11\00:50:21.42
they are going through
this portion of their journey.
00:50:21.42\00:50:23.99
So is that where the
acknowledgement comes in?
00:50:24.12\00:50:27.29
Yes.
00:50:27.39\00:50:27.79
Yes.
00:50:27.96\00:50:32.69
and, you know,
just deal with that.
00:50:32.69\00:50:36.43
But it's easier for it's easier
for me to just cut them off and
00:50:36.70\00:50:42.44
say you're out of here.
00:50:42.44\00:50:43.77
That's sin.
00:50:44.14\00:50:44.54
I'm not I'm done.
00:50:44.91\00:50:46.47
Don't come around.
00:50:46.88\00:50:47.54
I'm disowning you.
00:50:47.64\00:50:49.14
Don't ever come back here.
00:50:49.34\00:50:51.15
It's easier to do that than to
deal with the shame that exists
00:50:51.45\00:50:56.79
from, you know, did I
do something to cause this?
00:50:56.79\00:51:00.99
Was I not a good parent?
00:51:01.19\00:51:02.32
You know, what does this have
to these are all questions that
00:51:02.76\00:51:04.99
that we tend to do.
00:51:04.99\00:51:05.93
We become self.
00:51:06.16\00:51:07.03
Yeah.
00:51:07.23\00:51:10.07
And in reality, even though,
you know, I may not agree with
00:51:10.20\00:51:16.17
this decision and I may feel
like and like definitely this
00:51:16.17\00:51:20.41
is this is not the path
that God wants you to walk in.
00:51:20.41\00:51:24.25
How can I how can I how can I
still let you know that I love
00:51:24.91\00:51:30.82
you, even though I don't agree
with the choices that you're
00:51:30.82\00:51:34.46
making?
00:51:34.46\00:51:35.02
And how can we
talk about boundaries?
00:51:35.36\00:51:39.06
Yeah.
00:51:39.06\00:51:42.93
And what are those
boundaries going to be?
00:51:42.93\00:51:42.96
And so, you know, that
that's an important thing.
00:51:45.57\00:51:49.20
But I think not responding from
a space of shame, but actually
00:51:49.20\00:51:53.21
responding with the heart of
Jesus towards my child, knowing
00:51:53.21\00:51:57.88
that they are still my child.
00:51:57.88\00:51:59.25
I can say, get out of here.
00:51:59.35\00:52:00.88
I'm disowning you.
00:52:01.02\00:52:01.95
But when God comes, he's going
to ask you, Oh, come on now.
00:52:02.38\00:52:07.02
Where is that little
one child that I gave you?
00:52:07.46\00:52:10.36
And what I disown them because
they were sending this, that
00:52:10.73\00:52:13.93
and the other.
00:52:13.93\00:52:14.30
And it's like, yes.
00:52:14.46\00:52:15.66
But remember, I said that the
good shepherd will leave the 99
00:52:16.13\00:52:20.97
and go after the one.
00:52:20.97\00:52:22.67
So how have you,
you see what I'm saying?
00:52:22.94\00:52:25.17
How have you done that?
00:52:25.37\00:52:26.81
So there's a lot of work.
00:52:27.24\00:52:28.74
Don't have all the answers for
how or what that means in each
00:52:28.94\00:52:32.65
and every person's
experience or their situation.
00:52:32.65\00:52:35.48
But I would just warn that it's
important for us not to respond
00:52:35.65\00:52:40.42
out of our own shame and fear,
but to respond based on our
00:52:40.42\00:52:45.59
love for our child and our
desire to see them walking in
00:52:45.59\00:52:49.00
the path that God has for them.
00:52:49.00\00:52:50.43
I love, I love next steps.
00:52:51.03\00:52:53.57
So let's, let's just do a
little case study of them.
00:52:53.80\00:52:56.74
And Anissa and I were at one
of our meetings recently and a
00:52:57.24\00:52:59.61
parent came up and they
said, I want prayer for my son.
00:52:59.61\00:53:03.61
And they said, this is
what they were dealing with.
00:53:03.75\00:53:05.81
And they admitted right there.
00:53:05.81\00:53:07.32
A lot of this is I'm ashamed
of what the church will say.
00:53:07.58\00:53:10.95
What do you say to that parent?
00:53:12.02\00:53:13.52
One of the things I think is
so important with anyone who was
00:53:14.52\00:53:16.93
dealing with not just our
children coming out of the
00:53:16.93\00:53:19.89
proverbial closet or addiction
or any of these things, find
00:53:19.89\00:53:23.40
support.
00:53:23.40\00:53:23.97
And sometimes
this is a hard truth.
00:53:24.43\00:53:27.47
Sometimes the environments that
we're in are not equipped, but
00:53:28.07\00:53:31.04
God is faithful.
00:53:31.04\00:53:32.04
There are who are right.
00:53:32.07\00:53:34.51
There are other parents.
00:53:34.71\00:53:35.88
There are other Christian
parents, just like you, who are
00:53:36.08\00:53:38.48
experiencing the same thing
that are there to support you
00:53:38.48\00:53:41.12
that can talk to you
about how they're handling their
00:53:41.12\00:53:43.72
circumstances or
their situations.
00:53:43.72\00:53:45.35
You do not have to go
through this by yourself.
00:53:45.59\00:53:47.66
You're not alone.
00:53:47.69\00:53:48.62
Find those support groups.
00:53:48.89\00:53:50.16
They are out there.
00:53:50.29\00:53:51.13
Find support.
00:53:51.13\00:53:51.16
Yes, definitely.
00:53:52.49\00:53:53.63
I will say find support.
00:53:53.66\00:53:55.66
And one of the things
that helps to defeat shame is
00:53:56.10\00:54:01.70
actually facing it head on.
00:54:01.70\00:54:03.67
The very thing oftentimes
that we need in order to defeat
00:54:04.77\00:54:09.61
shame is to say, Hey
folks, I need your prayers.
00:54:09.61\00:54:14.28
This is where I am and
this is what I'm dealing with.
00:54:14.38\00:54:17.45
And I think the enemy
works with a supernatural and
00:54:17.85\00:54:21.42
inordinate amount of shame,
especially when there are other
00:54:21.42\00:54:24.46
people close by who need also
to hear that they're not alone.
00:54:24.46\00:54:29.06
That man, Oh
man, their child too.
00:54:29.73\00:54:31.80
Wow.
00:54:31.90\00:54:32.33
It's not just me.
00:54:32.80\00:54:34.20
So we can become shame busters
when we say, Hey, I need your
00:54:35.27\00:54:40.14
prayers.
00:54:40.14\00:54:40.61
Cause in isolation
healing can't happen.
00:54:41.74\00:54:43.51
And what I mean by that is
this, that God has a testimony
00:54:43.61\00:54:46.95
for us.
00:54:46.95\00:54:50.25
and tell everybody, but I'm
so concerned about what people
00:54:50.25\00:54:53.72
know that I don't
even talk about it.
00:54:53.72\00:54:55.36
I don't even let people
know that I need help raising my
00:54:55.36\00:54:57.19
hand saying, I need help
that healing can't happen.
00:54:57.19\00:55:00.26
Right?
00:55:00.53\00:55:03.50
through something.
00:55:03.50\00:55:04.33
What do you think about the
idea that the, the church which
00:55:04.70\00:55:07.60
we need can also be used
as a tool for creating these
00:55:07.60\00:55:12.21
feelings, which we don't need.
00:55:12.21\00:55:13.48
Oh, we just, Oh man,
the time is running out.
00:55:14.01\00:55:16.68
Just quickly address that.
00:55:16.68\00:55:17.95
How do we deal
with that balance?
00:55:18.11\00:55:19.55
Yeah.
00:55:19.81\00:55:20.25
Yeah.
00:55:20.25\00:55:21.62
We need individual and
collective healing in the
00:55:22.45\00:55:25.35
context of the church.
00:55:25.35\00:55:27.16
I knew a young lady who
took a group of non Adventist
00:55:28.39\00:55:31.09
atheistic students to an
AA meeting of all places.
00:55:31.09\00:55:35.20
These atheistic
young people broke down.
00:55:35.80\00:55:38.37
There was
medical school in Brazil.
00:55:38.60\00:55:40.64
They broke down medical
students and they said, we have
00:55:40.90\00:55:44.57
never in our lives experienced
such transparency and
00:55:44.57\00:55:48.48
vulnerability.
00:55:48.48\00:55:49.31
We are touched to the very core.
00:55:49.91\00:55:51.48
And as I had a conversation
with the young person, I
00:55:51.98\00:55:54.12
thought to myself, that's
what our churches need to be.
00:55:54.12\00:55:57.15
They need to be the spaces
that people come into and say, I
00:55:57.75\00:56:01.22
have never experienced such
transparency and authenticity
00:56:01.22\00:56:05.33
and openness in any
place that I've ever been.
00:56:05.33\00:56:09.76
And so this I believe is what
God intends for the church to
00:56:10.23\00:56:16.07
be.
00:56:16.07\00:56:16.74
We are not there yet,
but it takes personal work.
00:56:17.14\00:56:20.38
It takes collective work.
00:56:20.54\00:56:21.74
One of my wife's
favorite passages.
00:56:22.01\00:56:23.41
They overcame him.
00:56:23.88\00:56:27.92
of their testimony, which
means we have to, we have to say
00:56:27.92\00:56:31.95
where we have been and
what we've been through.
00:56:31.95\00:56:34.32
Yeah.
00:56:34.59\00:56:35.26
Friends, this
has been a blessing.
00:56:35.36\00:56:37.09
We told you it
would be a blessing.
00:56:37.23\00:56:38.39
And now we're here about
to close, but before we do it,
00:56:38.73\00:56:41.36
what are some
things that have come up?
00:56:41.36\00:56:43.10
Acknowledgement has come up.
00:56:43.23\00:56:44.70
Introspection has come up.
00:56:45.60\00:56:46.87
Self-awareness.
00:56:46.94\00:56:52.04
This has been a blessing.
00:56:52.27\00:56:54.01
Thank you so much for sharing
with us and letting the Lord
00:56:54.18\00:56:57.58
use you.
00:56:57.58\00:56:58.28
Friends, thank
you for being with us.
00:56:58.55\00:57:00.32
And as always, be encouraged.
00:57:00.68\00:57:03.39
Be encouraged.
00:57:03.72\00:57:04.52