Participants:
Series Code: TDYL
Program Code: TDYL240035A
|
00:03 I want to spend my life, mending broken people.
00:15 I want to spend my life, 00:36 I want to spend my life. 00:42 Mending broken, 00:47 I want to spend my life. 01:06 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today, Thursday Night Live. 01:10 I am so excited for this Power Pack two hours that we have in store for 01:15 you. 01:18 I believe God is going to do incredible things this evening. 01:22 We have Christmas Behind Bars and Christmas Behind Bars is no 01:27 stranger to you at home. 01:28 I'm sure that you are familiar with Lemuel Vega. 01:31 I've known Lemuel for probably close to 11 years. 01:36 And one thing I can say about Lemuel is he is very consistent. 01:41 He's been consistent throughout the years. 01:43 He's passionate about spreading the gospel and taking it to those 01:48 brothers and sisters that are incarcerated. 01:51 But before I jump in and talk to Lemuel for a second, I want to 01:55 share this Bible verse with you. 01:57 This is taken from Matthew chapter 25. 02:00 We'll begin in verse 34. 02:27 The righteous will answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see you 02:32 hungry and feed you or thirsty and give you drink? 02:35 When did we see you a stranger and take you in or naked and clothe 02:38 you? 02:43 And the king will answer and say to them, assuredly I say to you, 02:48 inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you 02:53 did it to me. 02:54 Christmas Behind Bars is doing an incredible work. 02:57 And it is truly the Lord's work as outlined here in Matthew chapter 03:02 25. 03:03 So Lemuel, welcome to the program. 03:05 It's great to have you here. 03:06 Thank you, Jay. 03:10 inmates many times, Jesus says, as you've done it unto the least of 03:15 these my brethren. 03:17 So he equated himself with the least of the least. 03:19 But yet his message was for the highest of the high. 03:22 And it covers all spectrums. 03:23 Amen. 03:24 Amen. 03:28 It's great to have you here. 03:30 Thank you for having me. 03:31 Yes, sir. 03:32 I can't wait to hear your story. 03:33 You've got a powerful story and we're looking forward to hearing 03:36 that. 03:37 Next to you, we have someone really official. 03:39 We've got sheriff, the sheriff of Henry County in Indiana, John 03:45 Sprouls. 03:46 It's great to have you here. 03:47 Good to be here. 03:47 Thank you. 03:48 Yes, sir. 03:49 And sitting right next to you, we have Donnie Rutledge. 03:53 I can't wait to hear your story as well because you have a powerful 03:56 one. 03:56 Well, thank you for having me. 03:58 Thank you for being here. 03:59 And we have Chaplain from Mississippi, Maurice Clifton. 04:05 It's great to have you here as well. 04:07 And you have a powerful testimony. 04:09 Yes, it's an honor to be here. 04:10 Yes, sir. 04:11 Yes, sir. 04:12 We also have a couple of pictures that we're going to kind of go 04:16 through and we'll take a look at those. 04:19 But Lemuel, why don't you kind of set things up for us? 04:22 Well, this whole live program is sharing hope with the world. 04:27 This prison, I got out of this prison 40 years ago, the Pendleton 04:31 Correctional Facility, and we just recently made 3,000 packages with 04:35 the sheriff, and about 110 of the inmates came and made packages. 04:40 We just delivered, Donnie, what was the last week to this prison? 04:43 1,600 packages. 04:45 And it's just amazing to be able to go back in and give back to a 04:49 maximum security prison. 04:53 opportunity to go back and deliver packages just last week. 04:57 Really amazing. 04:58 That's incredible. 05:03 You can't put words into letting someone know that there's hope for 05:07 their life. 05:11 Amen. 05:12 And the blessing is truly on the go for sure. 05:15 And we receive blessings. 05:17 We go wanting to be a blessing to them, but we leave and his word is 05:21 magnified in our lives, so that's awesome. 05:23 Yes, yes. 05:24 We have a video that I would love to show before we come to you, 05:30 Sheriff Sprouls. 05:31 Let's take a look at that video right now. 05:34 Today we have the sheriff with us, and you're the sheriff of a whole 05:37 county, and so he has a perspective on Christ and sharing the gospel 05:42 with the incarcerated. 05:44 Yeah, thank you. 05:45 I'm John Sprouls. 05:46 I'm the sheriff of Henry County. 05:47 Henry County, Indiana. 05:49 And we was connected with Christmas Behind Bars this past Christmas, 05:53 and you all deliver these wonderful gift bags for us to distribute to 05:58 our inmates. 05:59 How did you see that? 06:00 When you took the gift packages into the pod, you know, that was 06:03 something new for you. 06:04 How did you see the reception of that? 06:06 Oh, it was amazing, and one thing that was very key that I tried to 06:10 tell every inmate is where these packages came from. 06:14 I told them, I said, somebody that was sitting behind bars just like 06:18 you many, many years ago got this idea from the Lord to help and give 06:26 back, and so I think that connection, telling them, listen, 06:30 you're not hopeless. 06:32 Look at the amazing work that God has used you to do, and I think 06:36 that really spoke to their hearts, and the food and all of that was 06:39 just great, but the literature, the gospel literature that was in 06:42 there, we've had so many people say, man, that was so helpful. 06:44 It's the first time I've read gospel literature. 06:47 As far as a chief deputy, what do you think working under this guy? 06:52 I mean, because he has a perspective, number one, the Lord, 06:54 number one, transformation for lives, he's incarcerated, so what's 06:57 your thought in all of this? 06:59 Yeah, you know, Christ commands us to love. 07:03 There's no greater commandment in Scripture than to love. 07:07 Amen. 07:16 privilege to be involved with this, and it's a privilege to serve under 07:21 him and be able to bring hope to people. 07:26 So you guys have a job to do. 07:28 You have to protect society. 07:30 You have to incarcerate sometimes individuals that have broken the 07:33 law, but the bottom line is, is what you're telling me, there's 07:37 possibility and hope for their life. 07:39 Oh, absolutely. 07:40 Absolutely. 07:41 Amen. 07:45 Dennis Page is somebody who's been a grateful part. 07:49 We've been grateful to him to be a part of this ministry over the 07:52 years, and Dennis, you actually begin to give your heart to Christ 07:56 as you're on your way to a prison sentence. 07:59 Yes, you know, God is so merciful. 08:02 He intervenes in my life at a very profound time, and I began reading 08:06 the Bible. 08:08 I wasn't looking to go to prison. 08:10 Someone gave you a Bible study in the county jail, amen? 08:13 Well, yes. 08:14 But before I got there, somebody had given me a Bible. 08:17 One day I got tired of living my life. 08:19 I asked God for help. 08:20 The next day I got busted. 08:21 I was on my way to federal prison while I was in the county jail 08:24 going through my case. 08:26 Somebody gave me a Bible study, and it was just so profound because it 08:29 just took me from one subject to another on what the Bible has to 08:33 say about all these different topics, amazing facts. 08:36 It was amazing. 08:37 It gave me a lot of amazing facts about the Bible, and I loved it. 08:40 And so I started a ministry right there in prison, reaching out to 08:44 people, sharing with people, and then God, when I got out, God just 08:47 rebuilt my life. 08:51 And I remember that this was the very first prison, state prison, 08:55 that we were able to bring the program to. 08:57 It's been a real blessing working with you. 08:59 It's probably been 17, 18 years ago this was our first prison. 09:02 Yes. 09:04 Abraham, Father Abraham. 09:05 Father Abraham, and they called him Bible Man because he always carried 09:10 the little Bible with him wherever he went. 09:12 And as you were seeking God's will for your life, you told me you'd 09:16 read the Bible and you're still smoking dope. 09:18 That's right. 09:23 You know, we're not going to get cleaned up and then go to church. 09:25 We're not going to get cleaned up and then go to Jesus. 09:27 Jesus does the cleansing. 09:29 He does the healing. 09:30 He does the restoration. 09:32 You just got to start and move forward. 09:34 Richard Latour is the program director for this maximum security 09:38 prison. 09:44 wonderful job. 09:45 It's huge. 09:48 what's happened today and then we'll kick into napping. 09:52 Absolutely. 09:55 know, we have a large population here, a mix of anything that you 09:59 could imagine, but we have a lot of dedicated guys here. 10:02 Even though somebody might have life in prison, you still offer 10:06 them programs and you see value in that. 10:08 Exactly. 10:11 Praise the Lord. 10:17 here. 10:17 Right. 10:19 The punishment isn't their time here. 10:21 So we need to make sure that they have something to do, something to 10:24 be fruitful with their family, with their peers that they have here at 10:27 the facility. 10:28 We've seen today with something like this that it provides them an 10:32 opportunity to be fruitful for not just their peers, but peers in 10:36 other states, not just peers in other states that are at a male 10:39 prison, possibly at a female prison as well. 10:42 So it provides them an opportunity to branch out, to share a message 10:46 of love that they have for others that they may not be able to share 10:50 right here in this facility, or that because of some restrictions 10:53 or because of whatever politics happen, it allows them to express 10:57 their true love for others. 11:00 Wow, that's incredible. 11:02 Lemuel, I mean, you've been going to all of these facilities. 11:06 What's one thing that you would want to share about going into 11:10 these facilities? 11:14 There's hundreds of people behind the scenes that make this happen. 11:18 We could make all the packages and go, but if it wouldn't be people 11:21 like the sheriff or the warden or the administration that allows us 11:25 to come in, we couldn't do it. 11:26 So the number one thing is prayer, and the Lord makes it happen. 11:30 Amen, amen. 11:31 Sheriff Sprouls, what was your involvement like with Christmas 11:34 Behind Bars? 11:36 So I did not know anything about Christmas Behind Bars because I'm 11:40 new in law enforcement. 11:41 I've been full-time only for about six years now. 11:45 And so I actually was coming up on our first Christmas with me being 11:49 the sheriff, and I had told our people, look, we've got to put 11:53 together gift bags for our inmates. 11:55 And so we put together, I think we had about 220 inmates, went and 12:02 bought little gift bags and just bought several items. 12:05 And I think we had spent about $4 ,000 for these little gift bags. 12:09 I was kind of shocked. 12:10 Again, I'm new at this. 12:12 And then Lemuel reached out to me and said, hey, I'm with Christmas 12:16 Behind Bars. 12:18 Would you care if we brought some Christmas gifts? 12:20 I'm thinking that would be awesome. 12:22 They roll in with bags this big, and the literature and everything. 12:29 God brought us together. 12:31 I'll tell you, it has been... 12:33 I just recently learned of them, and my heart kind of just linked 12:38 with his heart. 12:39 I love the caring aspect of it. 12:41 And so I'm just... 12:43 I thank God for this connection. 12:45 Amen, amen. 12:46 What made you decide to go into law enforcement? 12:49 Because you said you'd just been doing it for a couple years now. 12:51 What made you decide to go down that route? 12:54 So I don't apologize for being... 12:57 I'm a pastor's son. 12:58 And my in-laws were missionaries for 22 years to Papua New Guinea. 13:05 So I've grown up in the church. 13:06 I went to a Christian school. 13:08 And I've been a church builder. 13:11 I actually build buildings. 13:12 I've built over 100 churches all over Indiana. 13:16 But when I was in a Christian school, in high school, back in 93, 13:20 I graduated in 93. 13:22 I wanted to get into law enforcement, but you have to be 21 13:25 to be an officer. 13:27 So my dad is, like I said, he's a pastor and he was building 13:30 churches. 13:31 I fell in love with building. 13:33 And so I was building away. 13:35 I had just got married at 20 years old. 13:38 And so when I turned 21, I got sworn in as a reserve deputy. 13:44 So you donate your time. 13:45 And I did it for several years, and I was just too busy with church 13:49 building and raising a family. 13:52 I got out of it for many years. 13:54 And I got back about eight years ago as a reserve. 13:57 And then I felt the Lord wanted me to run for sheriff because I felt 14:01 like there was a huge need in bringing a Christian culture to law 14:08 enforcement. 14:10 So I got back on as a reserve about eight years ago. 14:14 And I told my wife, I said, I believe the Lord wants me to run 14:16 for sheriff. 14:21 But a full-time position opened up. 14:23 I put in for it. 14:28 sheriff. 14:32 So and I was elected and I took office January 1 of 2023. 14:38 Wow. 14:39 Wow. 14:39 Praise God. 14:40 So what does that look like? 14:42 And when I say what does that look like, what does it look like 14:45 bringing Christianity into that office from the standpoint of, you 14:52 know, you see some facilities that they just want to warehouse people, 14:56 right? 15:01 ready for re-entry to society, to be successful returning citizens. 15:06 So what does it look like incorporating Christianity? 15:08 Well, I could tell you very specifically what it looked like on 15:12 day one. 15:19 many of our local church people and invited them to come out to the 15:23 jail and to the sheriff's office. 15:25 We just built a brand new $25 million facility. 15:27 It's beautiful. 15:29 And so I had reached out to them and said, let's meet and let's pray 15:32 through the jail and pray through the offices on day one. 15:37 We had over 40 people, 40 Christian people come together and pray. 15:42 And I want to tell you something. 15:43 Let me tell you what my mom said. 15:45 And again, pastor's wife for longer than I've been born. 15:49 And with all of these different groups, different churches, 15:53 different denominations, getting together and praying in unity for 15:58 our inmates, for our officers. 16:02 My mom said after later on that day, she said, I just, when that 16:06 volume of prayer went up, she said, I looked around and watching 16:09 everybody pray and she said, I've been living in a box. 16:13 The interesting statement. 16:15 And it's just the power of praying through there. 16:18 I'm here because I care for our inmates. 16:22 Ben here is one of our former inmates. 16:25 And so I just, our mission statement, I prayed about that. 16:30 Lord, so I read all these mission statements all about protecting and 16:33 all of that. 16:34 And God brought Micah 6-8 to mind. 16:38 Do justice, love mercy, and be humble. 16:43 And I knew when I, I called my chief deputy, which you saw earlier 16:46 there at the Pendleton Reformatory, great Christian guy. 16:50 I called him and said, hey, Josh, I believe the Lord gave me the 16:53 mission statement. 16:54 And I told him, he said, man, it's perfect. 16:56 It's perfect. 16:57 We've got, we have to do justice. 16:59 That's our job. 17:00 That's our requirement from the Lord. 17:02 But love mercy, sometimes I don't see that like I'd like to in law 17:07 enforcement. 17:07 Be humble. 17:09 A lot of times I don't see that. 17:11 And so we're just wanting to create a culture of care. 17:16 We want to put God first in everything that we do. 17:20 And, and the Lord is just, the Lord is working in wonderful ways. 17:23 We just, we want to care for our people. 17:25 Amen. 17:26 Amen. 17:26 Yeah. 17:28 I love that you're fostering that type of environment. 17:31 That's going to go a long way. 17:34 Lemuel would talk about results. 17:36 How many baptisms have you had out of the 220 inmates under your care? 17:41 So I believe we've baptized almost, almost a hundred, I think 80 or 90 17:47 males and females. 17:49 And, and, you know, I, I didn't know, I've got a lot of attention 17:53 since I became the sheriff that I didn't know. 17:56 I didn't know I deserved, but we started baptizing. 17:59 And so I started getting letters and the first letter I got was from 18:04 some freedom from religion organization that says, we have 600 18:08 attorneys all across the United States. 18:11 And if you do not cease immediately. 18:13 In fact, I opened that letter when I was coming up to help you at the 18:18 Pendleton reformatory. 18:19 Yeah. 18:23 to, to cease. 18:26 What are you, what, what kind of steps are you taking to stop this? 18:29 And I remember laughing. 18:33 and now as I'm heading out for ministry up at the prison with the 18:37 mule. 18:40 We have, we have God. 18:42 And so I'm, I, there's some pressure there. 18:46 We're going to do what the Lord wants us to do. 18:48 And we're, we're just, we're not too scared about what, don't fear 18:54 who can kill the body. 18:56 Yes. 18:57 So we're going to keep doing the Lord's work. 18:59 Amen. 18:59 Amen. 19:00 I love that. 19:01 Ben, what's your story? 19:03 Well, I'm 40 years old. 19:06 I spent most of my life in Henry County. 19:09 I grew up kind of all over the country. 19:10 Lived in California, Connecticut, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas. 19:16 Not really the best family life at home. 19:18 Kind of grew up on the other side of the law enforcement where it was 19:23 just kind of ingrained that it's okay to do the criminal type 19:26 behavior. 19:29 Got in trouble early on in, in adulthood and learned that jail is 19:35 not really the place you want to be. 19:37 Picked up some real bad habits and some addictions while we were 19:40 incarcerated and found the Lord for a little while and stepped into the 19:49 church and kind of started taking everybody's inventory in the 19:53 church, stepped away from, from God, quit walking with him and got 19:57 back into the wrong lifestyle and made some more poor choices. 20:01 Been in and out of different facilities throughout the course of 20:04 my life. 20:12 This last time though, man, the jail in Henry County used to be 20:17 terrible. 20:18 It was a gladiator school. 20:21 Free for all. 20:22 The inmates controlled the jail. 20:23 The guards did what we wanted and there wasn't a lot of 20:28 administration wanting to take care of that. 20:31 This last time in jail, Sheriff Sproles took over probably three 20:35 months after I was in there and he wasn't able to create miracles and 20:40 change the culture overnight. 20:41 But let me tell you the jail atmosphere today compared to what 20:44 it was before he took office is way different. 20:51 Just ministry, Christmas behind bars and other different 20:54 ministries. 20:56 He talked about bringing all those people in to pray for us. 20:58 And man, that was the first time I'd ever experienced a powerful 21:03 prayer group like that. 21:06 The Lord was with him that day. 21:07 He was in the jail and you can tell it was a positive environment. 21:13 So was that at the point where you just wanted to make a shift in your 21:18 life? 21:20 At what point in your life did you say you know what, enough is 21:23 enough, this is my rock bottom, I'm done with this? 21:26 Well, to be honest, the old jail administration put the bad in the 21:30 people that created a bunch of problems in the old building before 21:33 they built the new building. 21:35 They just locked us up pretty much 23 hours a day we were locked down 21:40 and I didn't cause any problems when I came back into jail that 21:44 time. 21:47 ever. 21:49 I wasn't combative or any of that and I still got punished like I was 21:53 doing those bad things and I realized that something's got to 21:59 change. 22:00 You can't keep living like this. 22:01 The people that you surround yourself with in those places 22:04 aren't the type of people that I, God's moved something in my life 22:08 and I don't want to be around those type of people no more. 22:11 Absolutely. 22:12 I just want to say we're glad that you're here. 22:14 Thank you for sharing your story. 22:16 I appreciate you guys having me very much. 22:19 I know that we're going to continue to pray for you as you walk 22:23 forward. 22:24 I'm glad that Sheriff's Sproles, I'm glad you set that environment 22:28 in there to make that change from the previous administration and 22:34 what took place in there. 22:36 So thank you for that too. 22:37 We have a couple of pictures. 22:39 Lemuel, why don't you tell us what we're looking at? 22:42 We've had the privilege to go to Mississippi and deliver care 22:45 packages all throughout the state of Mississippi. 22:48 This is our chaplain down there at a state prison. 22:51 He helped us ride in, deliver the packages in the prison, and then 22:54 these are some of the staff members and some of the inmates that helped 22:58 unload the truck. 23:02 throughout the state of Mississippi. 23:04 Absolutely, absolutely. 23:07 Chaplain Clifton, tell us about your experience because I know 23:11 Lemuel just alluded to the fact that you're going back in. 23:14 Did you do some time? 23:16 What's your story? 23:17 I have a long story. 23:19 We need more than a Thursday night to tell you about it, so I'm going 23:21 to try to give you a song. 23:24 Well, I was born and raised in the Mississippi Delta. 23:26 My mom and dad, 20th child, straight-A student in high school 23:30 and college, but I was one of those kids that used to throw the rock 23:33 and hide the hand. 23:35 Now break that saying down. 23:37 Throw the rock and hide the hand. 23:39 I was doing stuff that my mom and dad didn't approve of, but nobody 23:45 would believe me because here I am on the honor roll and they would 23:48 believe that I was the one that was doing it. 23:50 So that kind of transitioned into my adulthood after I moved to 23:53 Chicago, and I kind of chose the street. 23:56 I quit school. 23:58 My sophomore year, majoring in nursing in Chicago, ended up 24:01 getting in trouble, and I kind of break it down to when I went to 24:04 prison. 24:08 Thanksgiving 1996, we always used to have family dinners, and we 24:11 would draw names, and so I was kind of hustling in the street, and I 24:15 was just kind of tired. 24:16 From the way to the street, I had lost two of my best friends in 24:20 1996, and I was just asking the Lord for a way out, but I remember 24:24 telling the Lord, I said, Lord, all my life, I've lived my life for 24:28 everybody else. 24:29 1997, I'm going to live my life for me. 24:32 I got locked up two minutes after midnight. 24:35 Wow. 24:36 It's like the heavens opened. 24:37 I could hear the voice saying, you're on your own. 24:41 And I went to prison, so I went to federal prison. 24:44 I got 33 years as a first-time offender for six grams of cocaine 24:48 and 20 years for money laundering. 24:50 You said how many years? 24:51 33. 24:52 33 years? 24:57 court, you're trying to figure it out, so he said 400 months. 24:59 I said, okay, 120 is 10, 240 is 20, 360 is 30, now I got to take that 25:05 40 and do the same thing to it, and so I got 33 years in four months. 25:10 I laughed at it because I knew that it was God going to take me through 25:13 the fire and bring me back out because I was raised in the church, 25:16 I was raised in the apostolic church. 25:18 So during my 23-year journey, I had to reinvent myself. 25:22 Okay. 25:25 I had to stand up in the mirror and say don't throw the rock because 25:28 it's wrong. 25:29 Yes. 25:35 in prison. 25:38 staff and inmates because most of the time, inmates don't know how to 25:41 communicate with staff, so I started developing a reentry 25:44 program. 25:45 Oh, wow. 25:46 And so, you know, like breaking ties, just teaching guys how to 25:50 break their criminal thinking. 25:51 So wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. 25:54 So you were inside developing a reentry program for, that's 25:59 incredible. 26:00 So I went to four different institutions to start a reentry 26:03 program, not knowing that this was going to be my call or my 26:07 opportunity to be free. 26:10 And before I got released, I got released in January 10, in 2020, 26:15 January 10, 2020. 26:17 I lost a son a month and a half before I got released, Maurice Jr. 26:21 from Kokomo, Indiana. 26:22 You know, so I have ties and a two -share. 26:25 But long story short, I was in prison and God had sent me and my 26:29 wife, my first wife got killed while I was incarcerated in 26:31 Indiana, in Kokomo. 26:33 She was murdered December 18, 2004. 26:37 So I just had a lot of things going on at the time I was inside, but I 26:41 still knew the love of Christ. 26:45 But I kind of strayed, I was straying back to that old me and in 26:49 2014, I got sent to the shoe. 26:51 And for guys who've been incarcerated, you know that's the 26:54 hole. 26:58 every day. 27:02 While doing that, I was led by the Holy Spirit to get out of bed and 27:07 pray for a young lady that I had met while I was incarcerated. 27:10 Her brother was, I was his mentor while I was in prison. 27:14 And the first night, I disobeyed the Spirit and the same thing 27:17 happened the second night. 27:19 I said, let me get out of bed and pray for this young lady. 27:22 But that young lady is now my wife and we have a daughter. 27:24 I had five sons when I went to prison. 27:26 So I got a 22 month old daughter. 27:29 I got married since I've been home. 27:31 And so now let's transition to me getting out. 27:35 The day I got out, Friday, January 10th, I was having one of the top 27:38 five worst days of my incarceration. 27:41 The weight of my son, losing my son, the weight of losing my wife. 27:43 My mom had just died in 2016. 27:46 And after I got out of the shoe, I went back to, they transferred me 27:49 to Benesville, South Carolina. 27:51 No incident report, did 23 years, only one write up. 27:54 That's the first, the first month I was in prison, I got a three way 27:58 phone call write up in the federal system. 27:59 Didn't have any write ups. 28:02 So I went to Benesville, South Carolina and they had the only 28:04 apostolic faith church in the system. 28:08 So that allowed me to get back into the word of God and just started 28:14 bringing that down into my soul. 28:16 The young lady, I started writing to her. 28:18 We decided to take year by year to see with our relationship and if I 28:23 get out fine, but I always wanted her to go. 28:25 She said, no, I'm going to stay one more year. 28:27 That Friday man, they would have been raining all week and 28:29 everything was weighing heavy on my soul and the case manager called me 28:34 and he told me that it's time for you to go. 28:37 You know what I mean? 28:38 I said, what you mean? 28:39 So you got me to release. 28:41 So here I am, getting out 10 years early, but I always kept the hope 28:45 bag. 28:48 everything that if I got it, when I got it, me to release, not you. 28:52 That's what I was going to take with me. 28:54 So you got out 10 years early. 28:56 10 years early. 28:56 Wow, that's incredible. 28:58 I want you to share something for our audience. 29:02 What would you say to someone who's about to get out? 29:06 What could they do to make sure that they don't go back in? 29:11 If he hasn't done it, on his first day of going into prison, there's 29:14 no magic thing that you can do once you get out because you have to 29:17 prepare yourself for that opportunity. 29:20 Freedom is where preparation meets opportunity. 29:23 So I prepare myself every day for the opportunity to be free. 29:26 And so seven months later, Jason, I had an opportunity from a young guy 29:31 that I'd met before I went to prison. 29:33 He's now the second-in-command in the state of Mississippi Department 29:36 of Corrections. 29:38 And he had been watching me. 29:39 I had been doing community work once I got out in Mount Bayou. 29:41 I'm from a little town called Mount Bayou. 29:43 It's an all-black town in the Mississippi Delta. 29:46 And so I was doing community work, wanted to clean up the town. 29:49 I was feeding people. 29:50 I started my own nonprofit. 29:52 And so he introduced me to the commissioner. 29:56 And I got hired as a chaplain slash reentry coordinator. 30:00 So I started developing reentry programs within the Mississippi 30:04 Department of Corrections. 30:05 I didn't know how bad out of prison was until I got a chance to go in 30:09 as a free person. 30:11 And so I developed... 30:13 Go ahead, let me... 30:18 Seven months. 30:18 Seven months? 30:19 Seven months and ten days. 30:21 That's unheard of. 30:22 So God had set him up through that training in prison. 30:26 And it's phenomenal. 30:27 Absolutely. 30:30 That was my next question. 30:31 How did you guys connect? 30:32 How we connected, I was in... 30:35 I worked at Parchman, unit 29. 30:37 I asked for 29 because that's what Death Row was. 30:40 And I wanted to be that beacon of hope for guys who were 30:42 incarcerated. 30:43 To say that if it can happen to me, it can happen to you. 30:46 But you've got to prepare yourself. 30:48 And so I developed trauma classes because I learned while I was 30:51 incarcerated that most people who are incarcerated got some type of 30:55 childhood trauma. 30:56 So I had to teach them how to deal with their aces. 31:00 And that's one of the things that I helped them do. 31:03 So now Death Row, being on 23-1, had never came out. 31:07 They come out every day now. 31:08 They've got a garden. 31:10 They do plays. 31:12 They've got a news magazine called The Juke Joint. 31:15 And so they're still doing it. 31:16 I got them into creative writing class. 31:17 Different book club at least once a month. 31:20 And so I transferred to CMCF where I met Lemuel. 31:23 I was getting ready to leave my office. 31:26 And the phone rang, and it was him calling the wrong prison. 31:31 I got a driver in Mississippi. 31:33 He was trying to get to Woodville. 31:35 He was trying to find this prison in Woodville, but I can't get a 31:37 hold to the warden. 31:38 I said, what do you got? 31:39 He said, well, I got some bags. 31:40 I'm crystal behind bars. 31:41 You can look it up. 31:42 I pull up the computer. 31:43 I look it up. 31:43 I said, okay. 31:44 Didn't know much about it. 31:45 I said, well, you can bring them here. 31:47 So he said, let me call my driver and I'll see. 31:49 His driver was probably like an hour away. 31:51 I was getting ready to get off. 31:53 I said, well, I'll stay because I know how important practices are in 31:55 prison for people. 31:57 I said, well, how many do you have? 31:58 And he said, how many inmates you got there? 32:00 I said, I got about 3,500. 32:02 He said, I got about 4,000 bags. 32:05 Look at God. 32:06 Driver came in. 32:08 I convinced the superintendent to stay. 32:10 Took the truck. 32:11 We bagged them up. 32:16 pass. 32:16 I touched the bag and give it to a guy. 32:18 He kind of witnessed to him. 32:19 You know, after in the whole zone and everything. 32:22 So that's how we met. 32:23 That was the first time. 32:24 He said, look, I need my bags back. 32:25 You got to fold them up this kind of way. 32:27 He gave him a description. 32:28 So I fold them up and I hold them for the next time. 32:31 And so I'm like, okay, that was just a one-time thing I'm thinking. 32:36 And so he calls me back a few months. 32:37 He said, you got another prison? 32:39 I said, yeah, I got MDLC and I'm gonna be a Parchman. 32:43 He took bags there. 32:44 We hit a county jail and then he went to SMCI all the way down. 32:48 So Christmas Behind Bars has been a blessing to the state of 32:50 Mississippi. 32:52 So now I got, Warren's calling me from, because news spread about 32:56 good news in prison. 32:58 And so they're calling me from New Orleans and a couple of Paris and 33:01 Louisiana. 33:04 what I want to do. 33:05 Well, praise God. 33:07 Lemieux, what were you going to say? 33:11 brother was driving semi down through Alabama. 33:14 He's supposed to deliver at Graceville prison tomorrow morning 33:17 in Florida. 33:18 My little brother had a heart attack and he didn't make it to 33:20 Graceville. 33:22 And so we canceled Graceville till the next day someone got me an 33:25 airline ticket. 33:30 Graceville. 33:31 The warden come out. 33:32 He said, I'm sorry about your brother. 33:33 I'm sorry. 33:34 We're praying for your brother. 33:36 Long story short, brother died but I pray he gave his heart to Jesus. 33:40 But the warden from Graceville prison used to be a warden in 33:45 Mississippi. 33:46 And I said, warden, I said, do you know of any other prisons? 33:48 My brother never would have asked that question. 33:50 So through my brother's passing, the warden connected us with 33:54 Mississippi. 33:59 thought was tragedy. 34:00 But I pray to see him in the kingdom of heaven. 34:04 That's incredible. 34:05 Thank you for sharing your story. 34:07 I mean, I wish we had more time to hear some more of it. 34:10 We have some more pictures that we're going to go through. 34:13 Why don't you tell us a little bit about these pictures. 34:16 Sounds great. 34:20 Now this is the Putmanville Correctional Facility where you 34:23 were incarcerated Ben and where Donnie had been incarcerated. 34:26 So here we're in the child hall and we have all of our volunteers, all 34:29 the bags, 2000 of them are sitting there. 34:31 And so the inmates will come through there one at a time, get 34:34 their package, get a handshake, get a word of encouragement, and be 34:37 invited to come out to the chapel. 34:39 Because after they get their package, they have a choice now 34:41 whether they want to come out to the chapel. 34:44 And that's where we have an opportunity to do ongoing 34:46 evangelism in the prison. 34:48 So that's really cool. 34:49 Yes, absolutely. 34:51 Donnie, why don't you share a little bit of your story? 34:54 Well, where to begin? 34:56 As a childhood, I never, I really didn't have a normal childhood. 35:00 I grew up in an abusive family and my dad was an alcoholic. 35:04 He wanted to come home, beat on me and my mom. 35:07 And I wasn't ever scared of the boogie man or the monster under my 35:11 bed. 35:11 It was my dad. 35:14 And well, it led to the streets. 35:19 After my dad left, when I was probably about 13, I joined a gang. 35:25 And I never realized that fast as being of a career criminal. 35:34 And I was a career criminal by the time I was 21. 35:39 And I did a lot of, I mean, I did a lot of time. 35:43 I've had charges from racketeering to corrupt business to welfare 35:47 fraud. 35:52 But he came in on my last prison sentence. 35:57 And you're taking somebody I was dyslexic and I couldn't read and I 36:03 never really was good in school. 36:05 So it was, I quit. 36:09 So I didn't have an education. 36:11 So the Bible was the very first book I ever read. 36:15 And what happened was I was facing, well, I ended up getting 58 years. 36:21 58 years down? 36:23 And I already had, at this time I had, after the 58, I had 59 felony 36:30 convictions and had the bitch who won me three times. 36:33 I don't know how I'm out here today. 36:38 I mean, if it wasn't God's grace and His mercy and I wouldn't be 36:42 here. 36:44 But long story short was, is I came in the prison system and when they 36:51 bring you in, they put you in a room. 36:53 I didn't have a room. 36:55 I was in a room alone and there was a Bible on the bed and it was 36:58 glowing. 37:00 I could never feel that gap of, with cars, money, material things, 37:07 anything like that. 37:08 I knew I was missing something in my life. 37:10 And I was just like God, you know, I was thinking, well, what is it? 37:15 But when that Bible was glowing in that room, it was the very first 37:19 book I read, but I fell to my knees and I was overwhelmed with his love 37:24 and I just went to the and the pastor said, Christ come to safe 37:39 centers. 37:41 And I was like, can you repeat that again? 37:44 And he repeated it three times and the second time he said, yeah, he 37:48 come to safe centers. 37:49 Third time he repeated, I think he was getting kind of frustrated. 37:53 And he said, yeah, Christ come to safe centers like you and me. 37:56 And I said, so you're telling me that I could be forgiven for all 38:02 this bad that I did. 38:03 And he said, yeah. 38:05 And I said, you must be a salesman because you just sold me the deal. 38:09 Because from right then, that day, the closer I draw to him, he draw 38:15 closer to me. 38:17 also, that made it where I wanted more of him. 38:22 But so I went through my discarceration. 38:26 I was facing 58 years. 38:29 And what happened was I started getting an inside-outside dad to 38:33 plus program. 38:34 Thank her for a change. 38:36 Got a high school diploma from, I think it was through Penn Foster. 38:42 And well, I got a lawyer and end up going back to court and end up 38:49 giving them. 39:07 ain't going to happen. 39:09 it was a blessing because somebody pinched me. 39:16 And that day forward, I never turned back. 39:20 now, I feel like this is the way that I give back, going back into 39:25 prisons, letting 39:36 them out. 39:37 Why are you saying this to me? 39:39 But once, we have a buddy named Cody. 39:45 And Cody came, what happened was Cody called me and said, you want 39:49 to go back to Miami County for Christmas and said, sure, why not? 39:56 And this is about six years ago, I met Lenor and we went in there and 40:01 he put me on a spot in front of about 200 inmates. 40:05 He said, you want to go up there? 40:07 no, the room got bigger and the lights got bigger. 40:12 I figured it was kind of like social anxiety. 40:16 I was scared. 40:17 I said, I couldn't get out of it because my back was against the 40:23 wall. 40:25 He called me up there and the room got bigger, the lights got bigger 40:29 and I really don't know what I said but just afterwards how the inmates 40:36 just they was like, man, you did good and it was something they 40:41 needed to hear. 40:42 But handing them that package, it prung out everything. 40:46 I said, look, this is something I want to do. 40:48 Now I know what he's calling me to do but I also do like, you ever 40:54 heard of Cairo's prison ministry? 40:56 I do that too. 40:58 So it's being active in all this is what keeps me from going back to 41:04 the old me but I know that I would never go back to that because there 41:10 ain't nothing there. 41:11 I can't even send right. 41:13 Before it was easy to send. 41:15 Today it's no. 41:17 But the calling on my life was like the feet on the cross. 41:22 And it was like I was saying, God, Jesus, remember me. 41:26 And he said, I already prepared a place for you. 41:30 And today I'm living in paradise because he pulled me from the pits 41:33 of hell and gave me life. 41:36 And you know, it says in the Lord's prayer on earth as in heaven. 41:40 That's why I say we're living in paradise because why wait till you 41:45 get there? 41:46 You've got to live it right now. 41:48 Donnie, you didn't tell me you were a preacher. 41:54 I mean, that is incredible. 41:56 It ain't me, it's him. 41:58 Yes, yes. 41:59 I want to find out what was it like for you when you heard 58 years 42:06 that you were getting sentenced to 58 years. 42:08 What was going through your mind at that time? 42:12 Well, I had a wife and two kids. 42:15 And there was a lot of regrets, shame. 42:23 I was blaming it on myself, which it was my fault because God gives 42:27 us the free will. 42:31 And it was a hard thing to face, but I knew I had to face it. 42:36 wasn't a way out. 42:37 There wasn't a back door that I could run out or anything like 42:40 that. 42:44 going to happen. 42:46 But me surrendering my life to Christ, it changed everything. 42:51 And if I could give anybody any kind of hope, this is what I would 42:57 say, you know, lean into him and he'll draw near to you. 43:02 his love, he says, come to me as you are. 43:06 And when you come me as you are, he sorts through your problems. 43:11 And the thing about it is, I realized that he said I would never 43:17 leave you or forsaken you. 43:18 And he didn't. 43:21 He changed my life and for the good. 43:24 And for years I struggled with forgiving myself. 43:28 But I had to men's weekend retreat. 43:38 And they asked me to give a talk and it was on forgiveness. 43:41 And it stood out the most. 43:44 I was running around with this book bag full of weight. 43:47 And it was all the weight of the sin that I was hoping against 43:51 myself. 43:51 I couldn't forgive myself. 43:53 So I was carrying it around for so long that I had to release it. 43:59 And then once I released it, it was just like, the shackles was gone. 44:03 I was ready to run. 44:05 I was set free. 44:06 I was no longer a slave of captivity no more. 44:12 I was set free. 44:14 You know those saying who the sun sets free is free indeed. 44:17 I'm free. 44:19 I'd like to say that the first prison he came back to was about 3 44:24 ,000 inmates to the Miami correctional facility. 44:27 How did that make you feel when you came in? 44:29 Because you received quite 44:40 a few messages were to go back and give back. 44:47 It's an honor. 44:49 It's really an honor because the blessings that he blessed me with, 44:54 and I remember him telling me you need to go back and tell somebody 44:57 else. 45:02 and share your testimony, or if we get to be able to go out there and 45:06 pray for them and really get into their lives where a lot of people 45:15 don't want to go back into prisons. 45:17 I was one of them. 45:18 I said, I ain't going back in there. 45:21 It was my calling. 45:25 I guess really honestly, it was a blessing. 45:29 I thought I was going in there giving somebody some hope. 45:32 It was the opposite. 45:34 It was giving me hope. 45:35 Yes, yes. 45:36 Sheriff Sprouls, real quick, what does it make you feel like as 45:41 you're listening to these stories, because you see a lot. 45:45 You see the other side of things, but sitting here hearing these 45:49 stories, the transformation that's taking place, how does that make 45:53 you feel? 45:54 Well, I love it. 45:56 You know, one thing that I tell our inmates, and I want to tell these 45:59 guys, their story and their message is so much more powerful than mine. 46:11 The people that are in jails, they don't really trust the police. 46:17 And you know, just an illustration, when I went with Christmas Behind 46:21 Bars to the Pendleton Reformatory, Ali Mueller called and asked if I 46:26 would come. 46:27 I said, man, I'd love to. 46:27 He said, hey, would you wear your uniform? 46:29 And I said, we're going to be inside the prison. 46:33 And he said, yeah. 46:35 So I said, man, that's a little bit dangerous. 46:37 Obviously, I won't take my firearm in. 46:40 But this is so important. 46:43 I learned a great lesson, and I've been able to share from this. 46:47 But when I walked in, I was a little apprehensive about it. 47:02 There's something I've got to tell you something, Now, hear this, this 47:05 is important. 47:07 He said, I've been in here 16 years. 47:10 And he said, when I saw you walk through that door and that uniform, 47:13 he said, man, I looked around, I knew I had to run. 47:16 And he said, and it's so important, he said, I knew there's nowhere to 47:21 run, but he said, it's just, he said, that's just the way it is. 47:25 And so, you know, I've gone back and told our officers, guys, just 47:30 because somebody is shaking like this when they're holding their 47:34 don't mean they're hiding dope. 47:35 Come on. 47:37 What are you shaking like? 47:38 What are you sweating for? 47:40 Are you hiding something? 47:41 No. 47:46 And we have got to understand that. 47:49 We have got to build a culture of trust. 47:53 And so, I've learned so many things. 47:55 So, Christmas Behind Bars has done so much more than just give inmates 47:59 hope. 48:03 I'll tell you what, these testimonies here were worth my nine 48:07 hours on the road today. 48:08 They were worth 24 hours on the road today. 48:10 I love it. 48:12 you know, God is going to use these people. 48:15 Yes. 48:16 He's going to use their testimony. 48:18 And I just, I'll tell you, I'm right where the Lord wants me. 48:21 Amen. 48:22 And I love it. 48:23 And I love ministering to people. 48:25 I love caring for people. 48:28 Amen. 48:28 Amen. 48:29 Lemuel? 48:34 are being used. 48:35 We want to talk to the people at home right now, Jason. 48:37 Yes. 48:42 You know, Christ sent the demoniacs back to their own hometown to share 48:45 what he'd done. 48:46 And that's what this brother did. 48:47 He's going back. 48:49 But people at home can get involved in jail and prison ministry. 48:52 It's not just Christmas behind bars. 48:54 That's great. 48:55 The Lord has built it. 48:56 But we want people to realize whether they're pastors or whether 48:59 they're chaplain, that they can do something in their own local county 49:02 jail. 49:06 saw this program, and they go down to the county jail, what would you 49:10 tell them when they go down to the jail, what they'd like to be 49:13 involved with? 49:14 Yeah. 49:15 Well, you know, there's many ways to be involved. 49:17 One thing that I would say, I laugh about it, but I go back to when I 49:22 bought these bags, these little bags, and I had $4,000 in it, just 49:28 for our jail only, 220 inmates. 49:32 You know, one thing that we can do is give. 49:36 I've heard this statement many times, you can never be more like 49:38 Christ than when you give, for he gave his only begotten son. 49:45 And so, you know, it does, one thing it boils down to is money. 49:51 you know, I remember talking to a friend, a dear friend of mine, an 49:55 old farmer friend who told me one day, he said, you know what, I just 49:59 feel like I'm just helpless. 50:01 He said, I don't, I'm worthless. 50:03 I'm 95 years old, I can't do much. 50:06 And I thought, you're 95 years old, setting on more millions than I can 50:09 count. 50:11 We have, you know, you can, right from your home, first you can pray. 50:16 You can pray. 50:18 Pray for the ministry. 50:19 Pray for those, the literature in the bags to connect. 50:23 Like you said, the Bible was glowing. 50:25 Oh man, that's the Lord. 50:26 That's the Lord working through prayers. 50:29 And so, you know, I would say, let's give because the thousands, I 50:35 have no idea. 50:36 Man, it's a lot of money. 50:38 But there are people out there who can perpetuate, promote this Gospel 50:45 by writing a check. 50:47 We just bought a whole semi-load of hygiene items. 50:50 It was $12,000. 50:51 I mean, but hygiene items, soap, shampoo, deodorant. 50:55 I bought a whole semi-load of ramen noodles. 50:57 They said 10 cents a piece. 50:58 I said, I'll take them. 51:04 cents. 51:08 And we're still paying study Bibles, the Andrews study Bibles. 51:11 We committed that every woman could get a study Bible. 51:13 They're a lot of money. 51:15 But God's good, so thank you. 51:17 I appreciate that encouragement to our viewers. 51:20 So Lemuel, with Christmas 51:32 Behind Bars, give us a little bit 40 years ago when I struggled with 51:36 addiction. 51:37 I used to take narcotics back and meet the officer down at the 51:40 McDonald's to take the drugs in there so my and the doctors want to 52:04 give me more dope. 52:05 They want to give you methadone and anabuse. 52:07 No, dude, I threw my dope in the parking lot tonight. 52:10 Last night I threw it in the parking lot and I walked into 52:13 treatment. 52:13 I don't want methadone. 52:14 I don't want anabuse. 52:15 I want to change. 52:17 And there was a pastor that came to pray with me in that hospital room. 52:21 I was there maybe a day and a half, two days in treatment. 52:23 I don't remember. 52:24 Knock on my door. 52:25 He'd like to come in and he told me what Jesus had done for him. 52:29 He got addicted to cough syrup when his mother died and Jesus helped 52:33 him with that and he left. 52:35 I pushed the bed back up against the door and I was in the valley 52:38 decision, do I want to try or not try? 52:40 Sure, I want to try. 52:40 I want change. 52:44 ever seen in my life. 52:45 Third grade, I heard there were no two snowflakes created the same and 52:49 I saw that sunset. 52:50 I said, I bet there's no two sunsets created the same either. 52:53 I said, if he can paint that, he can help me and I kneeled down and 52:56 I prayed. 52:56 I said, dear Jesus, please help me. 52:57 I want to quit, but I can't. 52:59 We began going to that pastor's church and that December his wife 53:03 had the idea of making packages for the folk in the local county jail. 53:07 So that's how it started, Jay. 53:08 Awesome. 53:13 didn't they? 53:17 fruit in jail. 53:21 they started off little and we went down to the jail and they passed 53:24 them through the bars to the inmates and then the next year, I 53:27 thought, I'll make them bigger so instead of a little package, we 53:30 made them bigger because I was hoping they'd open the door and 53:33 boy, they stuffed them through the food slot, through the tray slot. 53:36 And then I thought, chaplain said, now you got to keep them small 53:39 enough to fit through there. 53:43 that door and I didn't tell nobody. 53:45 So we got the big brown grocery sack now and so we show up at the 53:48 jail. 53:49 I didn't tell my wife. 53:49 I didn't tell the church. 53:50 I didn't tell nobody. 53:51 Show up at the jail. 53:53 They had a little committee meeting. 53:54 The officers all met down at the end of the hallway. 53:56 Said, guess we'll have to let them go in. 53:58 They opened the jail. 53:59 Now we got to go in and share with them the love of Christ and why 54:03 we're there for about 10 minutes in each pod. 54:05 So that's how the bags got bigger. 54:07 Yeah, yeah, I love that because those bags are huge. 54:11 Yeah, his cost of $4,000 for 200 bags, I can't begin to tell you 54:16 what these bags cost, but it's not about the cost. 54:19 It's about Donnie's life committed to Christ. 54:21 It's about our chaplain in Mississippi seeing the joy and the 54:24 value and hope in the state of Mississippi. 54:27 It's about my brother Ben receive a package and know there's hope for 54:30 his life. 54:34 maximum security prison and says there's hope for your life. 54:37 And so, Jay, all I can say is God is good. 54:39 Through your own personal testimony, he's brought you out of 54:42 darkness. 54:47 one that's incarcerated? 54:49 What can they do for their loved one? 54:52 I would say hold on. 54:53 Don't give up. 54:57 And so maybe you put your son through treatment and spent 55:00 thousands of dollars to send him to treatment. 55:02 He didn't get nothing in treatment if he didn't have Jesus. 55:05 And so family members, hold on. 55:06 Keep praying, support, write a letter. 55:09 Don't leave them abandoned at that point in their life when there's 55:12 opportunity for change. 55:14 You know, that's a dark place, but the darker the night, the brighter 55:18 the light. 55:19 Amen. 55:21 Now, maybe there's somebody at home that's like, hey, you know, I've 55:25 really been touched by what I've been watching. 55:28 I want to support the ministry of Christmas Behind Bars. 55:30 What's your website? 55:32 ChristmasBehindBars.org ChristmasBehindBars.org And no 55:36 matter how dark the night, God created humanity in His image. 55:40 Amen. 55:44 And on the cross of Calvary now, He brings that hope through His shed 55:48 blood, through His Son, Jesus Christ. 55:50 And what are some needs of your organization? 55:54 Needs? 55:56 We need volunteers to get involved. 55:57 We'll come to your church. 55:59 We'll share with you about the program. 56:00 We'll try to help get you started on the second hour. 56:03 We're going to hear from volunteer coordinators who help facilitate 56:06 this ongoing ministry in different states. 56:09 So yeah, it's awesome. 56:11 All right, let's go. 56:11 We've got just a few seconds here. 56:14 Ben, let's start with you. 56:16 Give me a final thought. 56:17 I just like to share that just because you know somebody who's out 56:23 there that might have struggled in the past, their mistakes, no one to 56:26 find them. 56:27 There's always hope. 56:28 God can and will change. 56:30 Amen. 56:31 Sheriff Sprouls? 56:34 Last message, I think, to the people. 56:38 I just want to share the hope of Christ. 56:40 Amen. 56:41 And I want to share that we care. 56:43 And most importantly, that God cares. 56:47 Amen, amen. 56:49 Donnie? 56:53 And I mean, He ain't ever gave up on us. 56:56 We wouldn't be here today if He gave up on us. 56:59 So just don't give up. 57:01 There is hope. 57:03 Chaplain? 57:05 I would like to just say love everybody, man, as Christ loved us. 57:10 Because somebody is down and downtrodden. 57:12 Don't think that you're so holy that you can't see Christ in them. 57:17 So look at them through the same prism as Christ looked upon us. 57:20 And He accepted us back and redeemed us. 57:22 Amen, that's very good. 57:24 Lemuel? 57:27 Behind Bars ministry. 57:29 Amen, amen. 57:30 This first hour has been incredible. 57:33 Thank you all for coming on and sharing. 57:35 Don't go anywhere. 57:37 We're going to take a brief break. 57:38 We will be right back with more to come, We're going to play in some 57:41 musical chairs, and more blessings are on the way. 57:45 Amen. |
Revised 2024-10-31