As you're well aware,
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we're living in
unprecedented times.
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Join us now for
today's special program.
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Removing pain
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Lord, let my words
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Heal a heart that hurts
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today,
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we have such an exciting program
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for you today.
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And I'm so glad that
you've taken the time
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to join us, to be with us
here because you are our family,
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and we have a
special family member here.
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I am so enamored
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with the ministry
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that our guest represents
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and is a part of
and is co-founder of.
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We have Pastor
Ron Woolsey with us
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from Coming Out Ministries.
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He is a retired
pastor of the Marshall
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and Clinton Arkansas
Seventh-day Adventist churches,
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and co-founder,
speaker and director
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and former board chairman
of Coming Out Ministries.
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Welcome to 3ABN Today.
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Thank you.
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It's a real treat to be with you
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on the set again, Yvonne.
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Oh, thank you.
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Yeah, we always look forward
to these special opportunities.
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Oh, thank you.
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We're so glad to have you
because you, what you bring,
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and what you represent
is such a powerful message.
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And so, we're
going to get into that,
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we're going to talk
about your new book.
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We're going to talk
about Coming Out Ministries
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and all that you guys are doing.
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But first we have a selection
from Pastor John Lomacang.
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He is going to sing
for us, "There Is A River."
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Be still and know that He is God
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Be still and
know that He is holy
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Be still oh
restless soul of mine
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Bow before the prince of peace
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Let the noise and clamor cease
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Be still and know that He is God
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Be still and know
that He is faithful
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Consider all that He has done
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Stand in awe and be amazed
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And know that He
will never change
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Be still
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Be still and know that He is God
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Be still and know that He is God
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Be still and know
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That He is God
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Be still
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Be speechless
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Be still and know that He is God
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Be still and
know He is our Father
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Come rest your
head upon His breast
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Listen to the rhythm
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Of His unfailing heart of love
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Beating for His little ones
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Calling each of us to come
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Be still
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Be still
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How beautiful, be still
and know that He is God.
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Amen.
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Well, again, we have
Pastor Ron Woolsey with us
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from Coming Out Ministries.
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And for those who don't know,
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you've been on
3ABN multiple times,
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with not only with
Coming Out Ministries
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but also with your music.
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You're a concert
performer. Correct.
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And what a blessing you
are to the family of God.
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So, we thank you
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and we're really, really
happy that you're with us today.
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Tell us a bit about your journey
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and your ministry?
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Well, I am a pastor,
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and, but I've not
always been a pastor
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as you know,
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I've not always
been a Christian.
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I've been, while I
came into Christianity
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into the faith 29 years ago,
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but prior to that I lived
many years in the gay culture.
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I was labeled even by
pastors and Christian counselors
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as someone who
could not be changed,
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the statement that
just sticks in my head.
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In fact, my first book,
it uses that as a title,
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That Kind Can Never Change.
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I mean, it was pastors
that said that about me.
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I grew up in the church
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where there were no
resources for the gay issue.
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There was no discussion.
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There was no one I
felt safe talking to.
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I was molested,
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sexually molested
when I was four years old,
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repeatedly molested
when I was in grade school.
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And these events
derailed me at a very young age.
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And I struggled
with this all alone,
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I was not able to tell
anyone what happened to me
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or about any of the incidents
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because I felt
guilty and ashamed.
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As a victim, I felt guilty
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and I think
that's pretty common.
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Yes. That victims feel guilty.
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They feel responsible,
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or they're made
to feel responsible.
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What did I do to bring this on?
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Yes, I wasn't
going to tell on myself
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and I didn't know
how to stop the abuse
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and didn't know how to
say no since I was programmed
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and derailed at
such an early age.
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So, I grew up
with this confusion.
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And basically,
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as I look back
on it now, Yvonne,
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I realized I was
wrestling with a devil,
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who is
supernatural, all my young life,
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and I was wrestling
alone in my humanity.
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And in my fallen humanity,
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even though the
devil is a fallen angel,
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he's still supernatural.
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And my humanity was no match
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for his supernatural
abilities in temptation
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and then
allurement and deception.
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I eventually just gave up
and went into the gay world.
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You know, Pastor Ron,
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that is such a
profound statement,
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because I think
that that's where,
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for any of us who've
ever had any temptations,
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which is everybody.
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Correct.
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Because temptation
isn't, you know, can be sexual,
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it can be any
kind of temptation.
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We are not,
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the Bible tells us in Ephesians,
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we're not wrestling
against flesh and blood.
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And so, when we try to combat
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these things
ourselves, we are powerless.
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And that's, I think
that's why so many times
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people feel like
I just can't fix it.
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I can't change. Well,
on your own, you can't.
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Because you're not, it's not a,
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it's not just a willpower thing,
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it's a stronghold.
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We try to make it willpower.
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Yes, yes.
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And I think that's
where it's so difficult
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for people to
have a paradigm shift.
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So, I think that's
such a profound point.
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I think, Yvonne,
so often we think
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if, if I could
just get a grip on this,
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then maybe God can accept me.
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Yes. That's backwards.
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Yes.
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If I could get a grip on
it, I don't need a savior.
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Right? Yes. Yes.
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So, I went
through college, Yvonne,
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and graduated with honors
with a degree in theology,
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and did not have a clue.
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And at this time,
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were you
practicing the gay lifestyle?
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No, but, but I was
wrestling with this
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all of my life in my mind.
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I like to say that I came up
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with a brilliant
solution to my struggle.
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And I thought, well,
if I just get married,
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it'll take care of everything.
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Well, I don't
think I need to tell you
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that marriage
is not the solution
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to any problem.
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Marriage can be the
beginning of woes I say.
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If you're not
married to the right person
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for the right reason
as a blessing of God,
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and with the right chemistry.
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That's right.
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And I didn't have
the right chemistry.
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I tried in my
humanity to make things work.
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I was a spiritual
child, a spiritual teenager,
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a spiritual young person.
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I chose to graduate
with a degree in theology
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and then premed.
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I wanted to be a
medical missionary.
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I spent time in
the mission field,
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a couple of years in
Korea, South Korea and Thailand.
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And I loved the Lord.
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I loved mission work.
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I loved the church.
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But I didn't have answers. Yeah.
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And even with my
degree in theology,
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I had a lot of knowledge.
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But I didn't have the answers,
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because that issue
was never discussed.
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It was not dealt
with no resources.
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And so, you know,
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the devil thinks he's so clever.
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If he can find one issue
that will stump the Christian,
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then he thinks that he's won.
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And I really
think on the LGBT issue,
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the devil thinks
he's found the issue,
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because even Christians today
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believe that God Himself
can't change the homosexual
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that God made them that way
and God loves them that way,
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God will save them that way.
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And I say, well,
save them from what?
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But what are
they to be saved from?
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But anyway, I,
during my college years.
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And, I know that you,
you know that God loves them.
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Oh, sure. That way.
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Right.
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But He doesn't
keep them that way.
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Well, I wouldn't say
God loves them that way.
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He loves them in
spite of that way.
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Yes.
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He loves them where they are,
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but too much to
leave them there.
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Yes. Right.
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He loves them
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and wants to bring them
to a better place in life.
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And so, you know,
I married in college,
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and that was that
did not solve my problem.
00:12:40.29\00:12:46.19
You know, I chose to
have a Christian wife,
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a Christian home,
a Christian education
00:12:48.00\00:12:50.90
to make Christian babies
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and to prepare
for Christian service.
00:12:52.57\00:12:55.07
And when I realized
00:12:55.10\00:12:57.41
that that did not
resolve my issues,
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I was so
overwhelmed and so disappointed
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and so surprised.
00:13:04.28\00:13:05.61
I just gave up.
00:13:05.65\00:13:07.18
And then I went into the world.
00:13:07.22\00:13:08.95
I did not use my
degree in theology,
00:13:08.98\00:13:11.39
I was given a call to ministry,
00:13:11.42\00:13:12.89
but I wouldn't accept it
because I knew I wasn't worthy.
00:13:12.92\00:13:16.73
I didn't have
my issues resolved.
00:13:16.76\00:13:19.13
It was not right for
me to be in ministry,
00:13:19.16\00:13:21.66
when I myself
had so many questions
00:13:21.70\00:13:24.70
and doubts and
was in bondage to sin.
00:13:24.73\00:13:28.24
So, I fell into that life,
went into the world of that.
00:13:28.27\00:13:30.84
And what a terrible tug of war?
00:13:30.87\00:13:33.61
It was terrible.
00:13:33.64\00:13:34.98
It had to be? Yeah.
00:13:35.01\00:13:36.34
I think what really
embittered me against God
00:13:36.38\00:13:40.62
and the church was
when Christian counselors,
00:13:40.65\00:13:43.45
pastors, psychiatrists
said that guy can never change.
00:13:43.49\00:13:48.42
And then I thought,
well, either God is impotent.
00:13:48.46\00:13:52.33
And I thought He was omnipotent.
00:13:52.36\00:13:54.33
Or God doesn't
really love me enough.
00:13:54.36\00:13:56.90
And if, and a lot of people,
you know, Yvonne, think, well,
00:13:56.93\00:13:59.80
God will change
us when Jesus comes.
00:13:59.83\00:14:02.17
That's when everything
will be taken care of.
00:14:02.20\00:14:04.97
And then I have to say,
well, if God can change me
00:14:05.01\00:14:07.98
then, why not now?
00:14:08.01\00:14:09.98
Right.
00:14:10.01\00:14:11.35
And if He can, but
doesn't, it's His fault.
00:14:11.38\00:14:14.68
It's His fault.
00:14:14.72\00:14:16.05
And many gay people blame God,
00:14:16.08\00:14:18.99
they don't really
blame Him, they credit Him.
00:14:19.02\00:14:22.09
God made me this
way. I was born this way.
00:14:22.12\00:14:24.79
Once gay, always gay,
and all of those things.
00:14:24.83\00:14:28.83
And a lot of Christians
are buying into that idea that,
00:14:28.86\00:14:34.27
that, you know, someone is
gay, that's how they were born.
00:14:34.30\00:14:38.34
And we should just love
them and accept that behavior
00:14:38.37\00:14:42.44
because they were born that way.
00:14:42.48\00:14:44.41
There's nothing
they can do about it.
00:14:44.45\00:14:46.72
And it's becomes a
civil rights issue.
00:14:46.75\00:14:48.68
Right.
00:14:48.72\00:14:50.05
And I talked about
that in my second book,
00:14:50.09\00:14:51.49
that one called Strait
Answers to the Gay Question.
00:14:51.52\00:14:54.26
Yes.
00:14:54.29\00:14:55.62
I talk about
that very thing that
00:14:55.66\00:14:57.69
and you mentioned civil rights.
00:14:57.73\00:14:59.73
The born gay concept
00:14:59.76\00:15:03.10
was born in 1985
00:15:03.13\00:15:06.17
with the gay
politicians and psychologists
00:15:06.20\00:15:10.27
and wanting civil rights,
they wanted equal rights,
00:15:10.31\00:15:13.54
they wanted
legal minority status,
00:15:13.58\00:15:16.58
which requires that
you be born that way.
00:15:16.61\00:15:19.61
That's when they decided, aha,
we have to convince society.
00:15:19.65\00:15:23.49
And if we talk about it
long enough, rally enough,
00:15:23.52\00:15:26.05
frequently
enough, use the media,
00:15:26.09\00:15:28.49
you know, blasted everywhere.
00:15:28.52\00:15:30.46
Eventually, you know, if
you tell a lie long enough,
00:15:30.49\00:15:34.00
you'll believe it yourself.
00:15:34.03\00:15:35.36
True. Right?
00:15:35.40\00:15:36.73
And now, even the church,
I shouldn't say entirely.
00:15:36.77\00:15:41.27
But many people in the
church have bought into that,
00:15:41.30\00:15:44.97
whenever we have
events at churches
00:15:45.01\00:15:47.78
and we have a
question and answer period,
00:15:47.81\00:15:50.78
we always get the question.
00:15:50.81\00:15:52.98
Well, what about those
who are just born that way?
00:15:53.01\00:15:56.18
And then we have to
address that all over again.
00:15:56.22\00:15:58.49
So is that any science
behind being born that way?
00:15:58.52\00:16:03.32
The science. Or
is it pseudoscience?
00:16:03.36\00:16:04.89
The legitimate science shows
00:16:04.93\00:16:07.20
there is no gay gene that...
00:16:07.23\00:16:11.70
And one of the studies
00:16:11.73\00:16:13.07
and we won't spend
a lot of time on this,
00:16:13.10\00:16:15.34
but one of the studies
00:16:15.37\00:16:16.71
that's been going on for decades
00:16:16.74\00:16:18.57
has been that
of identical twins,
00:16:18.61\00:16:21.18
where if one
identical twin is gay,
00:16:21.21\00:16:25.18
they have the same DNA pattern.
00:16:25.21\00:16:27.55
If this is something genetic,
00:16:27.58\00:16:29.52
then the other
one should be gay.
00:16:29.55\00:16:31.69
And they have done research
on this for many decades.
00:16:31.72\00:16:36.06
And the conclusion
is that the concurrence
00:16:36.09\00:16:40.20
of both twins being gay is 7.7%.
00:16:40.23\00:16:45.50
That's very, very low.
00:16:45.53\00:16:48.07
So those studies alone
00:16:48.10\00:16:50.01
have pretty much
debunked that theory.
00:16:50.04\00:16:52.11
And there are many
more studies about that.
00:16:52.14\00:16:55.04
Johns Hopkins
recently came out with studies
00:16:55.08\00:16:58.01
that really debunked
the whole born gay theory.
00:16:58.05\00:17:01.25
I think this is
important to discuss
00:17:01.28\00:17:03.08
because I think
there's so many people
00:17:03.12\00:17:05.29
who because they're justifying,
00:17:05.32\00:17:09.29
not moving forward with
the whole idea of victory,
00:17:09.32\00:17:13.46
or looking at it as sin,
00:17:13.50\00:17:15.60
because how can
you change who you are?
00:17:15.63\00:17:19.33
And so that's the whole
idea of being born this way,
00:17:19.37\00:17:24.37
is a very, it's, it
kind of puts you in a box.
00:17:24.41\00:17:30.35
If you, because if
you're born that way,
00:17:30.38\00:17:32.55
you can't change it.
00:17:32.58\00:17:34.45
And once that
box is broken down,
00:17:34.48\00:17:37.42
now, when you realize,
well, that's not legitimate,
00:17:37.45\00:17:42.62
then all of a sudden, to me,
00:17:42.66\00:17:45.09
you're on your way to redemption
00:17:45.13\00:17:46.76
when you realize I
was not born this way.
00:17:46.80\00:17:49.46
And if God condemns
it, then He has a remedy.
00:17:49.50\00:17:51.83
Right.
00:17:51.87\00:17:53.20
God's not going
to condemn something
00:17:53.23\00:17:54.57
He can't take care of.
00:17:54.60\00:17:55.94
That's right. Right?
00:17:55.97\00:17:57.31
He doesn't condemn
people that are born handicapped
00:17:57.34\00:17:59.67
or deformed or whatever.
00:17:59.71\00:18:02.78
But He condemns gay behavior
and many other behaviors.
00:18:02.81\00:18:06.55
Right.
00:18:06.58\00:18:07.92
In my first book, I
listed all of the abominations
00:18:07.95\00:18:10.35
in the Bible,
00:18:10.39\00:18:11.72
and was quite
pleasantly surprised
00:18:11.75\00:18:14.66
that homosexuality is
only one of many abominations
00:18:14.69\00:18:19.13
which means it's
only one of many sins,
00:18:19.16\00:18:22.33
which means it's
one of those sins
00:18:22.36\00:18:24.07
that Jesus came to save us from.
00:18:24.10\00:18:26.00
Right.
00:18:26.03\00:18:27.37
And the people are
not the abomination.
00:18:27.40\00:18:29.77
No. The practice.
00:18:29.80\00:18:31.37
The practice. Yeah.
00:18:31.41\00:18:32.74
And I think that
also has to be discussed
00:18:32.77\00:18:35.01
because sin is sin is sin.
00:18:35.04\00:18:37.78
And so many times we
have these hierarchy of sins,
00:18:37.81\00:18:40.95
you know, hierarchies of sins,
and this is worse than this
00:18:40.98\00:18:44.79
and this is
worse than, sin is sin.
00:18:44.82\00:18:47.49
And yes, we, you know, I'm
sure that if you kill her...
00:18:47.52\00:18:51.46
You know, which sin is worse.
00:18:51.49\00:18:53.73
It's yours.
00:18:53.76\00:18:56.93
Right? That's right.
00:18:56.97\00:18:58.30
Your sin is worse than mine.
00:18:58.33\00:18:59.67
That's why we're so prone
00:18:59.70\00:19:01.04
to pointing out
someone else's sin
00:19:01.07\00:19:02.47
'cause it makes
us feel better...
00:19:02.50\00:19:04.11
About ourselves.
About our own addiction.
00:19:04.14\00:19:06.24
Absolutely. Absolutely.
00:19:06.27\00:19:07.64
You know, I came into
the faith 29 years ago
00:19:07.68\00:19:10.85
studying my way
out with the Bible,
00:19:10.88\00:19:14.02
and the Spirit of
Prophecy, that was it.
00:19:14.05\00:19:16.15
No counseling, no therapy.
00:19:16.18\00:19:18.69
And in Coming Out Ministries,
00:19:18.72\00:19:20.26
we do not believe
in conversion therapy,
00:19:20.29\00:19:23.43
we believe in
conversion of the heart.
00:19:23.46\00:19:26.19
That's the answer.
00:19:26.23\00:19:28.06
And I found all of those
answers in the Word of God
00:19:28.10\00:19:30.47
to where I could
turn and walk away
00:19:30.50\00:19:32.80
and I'm really simplifying it.
00:19:32.83\00:19:35.00
It was a very difficult process.
00:19:35.04\00:19:37.57
But it was one that was doable,
00:19:37.61\00:19:39.71
because I was no
longer doing it on my own.
00:19:39.74\00:19:42.01
Right.
00:19:42.04\00:19:43.38
I connected with divine
omnipotent transforming power,
00:19:43.41\00:19:47.25
which is called grace.
00:19:47.28\00:19:50.15
And by becoming,
00:19:50.19\00:19:52.62
we become
partakers of divine nature
00:19:52.65\00:19:55.26
through the exceeding great
and precious promises of God.
00:19:55.29\00:19:58.69
And so, I really
started collecting promises.
00:19:58.73\00:20:01.86
I have an article
called the rainbow,
00:20:01.90\00:20:04.30
a rainbow of promises.
00:20:04.33\00:20:06.27
And you read
through four and five pages
00:20:06.30\00:20:08.14
of this one
verse, two verse promises
00:20:08.17\00:20:11.07
and oh, it's invigorating.
00:20:11.11\00:20:13.58
It's very strengthening.
00:20:13.61\00:20:15.11
That's so beautiful.
00:20:15.14\00:20:16.48
You know what you said earlier
about God being omnipotent.
00:20:16.51\00:20:21.92
That is so important too,
because if God can't fix it,
00:20:21.95\00:20:26.05
then He is not omnipotent.
00:20:26.09\00:20:27.99
Maybe call it impotent.
00:20:28.02\00:20:29.36
He would be an impotent
God, if He can't fix it.
00:20:29.39\00:20:32.29
And He is omnipotent.
So He can fix anything.
00:20:32.33\00:20:34.73
Christians who refer to God
as omnipotent, need not say,
00:20:34.76\00:20:40.37
once gay, always gay.
00:20:40.40\00:20:42.30
That statement
is a contradiction
00:20:42.34\00:20:45.81
to your faith.
00:20:45.84\00:20:47.18
If you believe in
an omnipotent God,
00:20:47.21\00:20:50.08
then you cannot say
once gay, always gay,
00:20:50.11\00:20:53.01
because that's
putting it back on God.
00:20:53.05\00:20:55.95
And you know, I came back
into the faith 29 years ago,
00:20:55.98\00:20:58.65
a year later, I was married.
00:20:58.69\00:21:01.09
You've met my wife, Claudia,
we've been on the set together.
00:21:01.12\00:21:04.36
We have two children
together, but five all together.
00:21:04.39\00:21:09.00
And the Lord is really blessed.
00:21:09.03\00:21:11.03
But it was 10 years ago,
00:21:11.07\00:21:12.47
you wanted to know
about our ministry,
00:21:12.50\00:21:13.94
10 years ago,
00:21:13.97\00:21:15.30
someone that was
acquainted with me and others
00:21:15.34\00:21:19.77
that were talking about
this issue individually.
00:21:19.81\00:21:23.88
I was ministering and
traveling in many places
00:21:23.91\00:21:25.95
around the world with
my story and what have you,
00:21:25.98\00:21:28.72
but this one person
said, You know, I know this one
00:21:28.75\00:21:32.49
and that one, I
know several people.
00:21:32.52\00:21:34.19
Why don't we all get together
00:21:34.22\00:21:35.59
and see if we can work together.
00:21:35.62\00:21:37.53
So I was speaking at a concert,
speaking at a camp meeting,
00:21:37.56\00:21:42.00
SoCal camp
meeting in California,
00:21:42.03\00:21:44.57
and I was doing music
there with my marimba.
00:21:44.60\00:21:47.54
And we all met at
that camp meeting.
00:21:47.57\00:21:49.87
And by the end
of the camp meeting,
00:21:49.90\00:21:51.47
Coming Out
Ministries was formed.
00:21:51.51\00:21:53.17
That was 10 years ago.
00:21:53.21\00:21:55.11
So there were five of us
00:21:55.14\00:21:56.48
that had been
working individually.
00:21:56.51\00:21:59.11
We had the same
stories, similar stories.
00:21:59.15\00:22:02.48
We had the same solution.
00:22:02.52\00:22:04.99
We had the same theology.
00:22:05.02\00:22:07.36
And now we're in
the same ministry.
00:22:07.39\00:22:09.42
So, and Michael
Carducci and I, you know,
00:22:09.46\00:22:12.29
you know him very well.
00:22:12.33\00:22:13.66
Oh, I love Mike.
00:22:13.70\00:22:15.10
Are the two that are
remaining as cofounders.
00:22:15.13\00:22:19.83
Your ministry, to me is
when I first met you guys,
00:22:19.87\00:22:24.24
I was just so
impressed by the fact
00:22:24.27\00:22:26.31
that A, you would
stand against the tide,
00:22:26.34\00:22:29.81
because a popular culture
00:22:29.84\00:22:32.55
is coming up so
hard against you.
00:22:32.58\00:22:36.38
And yet you would stand up
and say, hey, there is victory.
00:22:36.42\00:22:41.06
And you don't,
you don't treat it
00:22:41.09\00:22:43.73
as you know,
you're not condemning.
00:22:43.76\00:22:46.16
You know, because
you've been there.
00:22:46.19\00:22:47.80
You've been through the process,
00:22:47.83\00:22:49.50
which is another word
that you used earlier today,
00:22:49.53\00:22:52.53
which is so important to
know that this is a process.
00:22:52.57\00:22:55.77
Coming out is a process.
00:22:55.80\00:22:57.47
It's not
necessarily instantaneous,
00:22:57.51\00:22:59.74
but it is a process
that God brings you through
00:22:59.77\00:23:02.51
if you connect,
00:23:02.54\00:23:03.91
which is another
thing that you said,
00:23:03.95\00:23:05.61
connect with Him
through His omnipotence.
00:23:05.65\00:23:10.22
So, Coming Out
Ministries is just if,
00:23:10.25\00:23:13.52
if you haven't heard of
00:23:13.56\00:23:15.72
or investigated
Coming Out Ministries
00:23:15.76\00:23:18.39
or if you have a loved
one who is in the gay culture,
00:23:18.43\00:23:22.30
who needs to know
more about Coming Out,
00:23:22.33\00:23:26.63
please look at their website
00:23:26.67\00:23:28.77
and we're gonna have
some address information
00:23:28.80\00:23:30.81
for you later.
00:23:30.84\00:23:32.17
But it is so important.
00:23:32.21\00:23:33.94
It is such a beautiful ministry
and I love all you guys.
00:23:33.98\00:23:37.85
I mean, I just, I just
think that God has selected you
00:23:37.88\00:23:42.15
for such a time as this.
00:23:42.18\00:23:43.92
So speaking of for
such a time as this,
00:23:43.95\00:23:46.29
you have written a book,
00:23:46.32\00:23:48.76
tell us about
Navigating the Storms.
00:23:48.79\00:23:52.86
Well, you know,
experiences in life,
00:23:52.89\00:23:56.67
lend themselves to
being object lessons.
00:23:56.70\00:24:01.10
And so, the book is based
upon an experience in life,
00:24:01.14\00:24:05.51
but I probably should start
00:24:05.54\00:24:10.35
first by saying
the need for this book.
00:24:10.38\00:24:14.32
We know that the whole
world is becoming polarized.
00:24:14.35\00:24:18.75
Yes. It's polarized.
00:24:18.79\00:24:20.39
It's very polarized. Yeah.
00:24:20.42\00:24:22.96
Jesus said in Luke Chapter 17,
00:24:22.99\00:24:25.13
as it was in the days of Noah
00:24:25.16\00:24:27.03
and as it was
in the days of Lot,
00:24:27.06\00:24:29.06
this is the way the
world is going to be
00:24:29.10\00:24:30.87
just before the coming of Jesus.
00:24:30.90\00:24:32.93
And if you study
what the world was like
00:24:32.97\00:24:35.77
in the days of Noah,
and the days of Lot, Yvonne,
00:24:35.80\00:24:39.37
we're here, we are there.
00:24:39.41\00:24:42.48
And you look at
the political world,
00:24:42.51\00:24:44.38
the polarization
is just incredible.
00:24:44.41\00:24:48.72
One side cannot
speak to the other.
00:24:48.75\00:24:50.55
I mean, it's like
they are locked in.
00:24:50.59\00:24:54.16
And the
conflict is just amazing.
00:24:54.19\00:24:58.03
The same way in
the social world,
00:24:58.06\00:24:59.89
in the education
community, in the media,
00:24:59.93\00:25:02.96
in the Christian world,
00:25:03.00\00:25:04.67
this
polarization is taking place.
00:25:04.70\00:25:07.37
And Satan is really
taking advantage of this.
00:25:07.40\00:25:12.57
He is using methods
to try to get the church
00:25:12.61\00:25:16.48
to change its
position about sin.
00:25:16.51\00:25:22.18
So, Satan wants
the Christian world
00:25:22.22\00:25:25.05
to believe in salvation in sin.
00:25:25.09\00:25:28.39
But Jesus came
to save His people
00:25:28.42\00:25:30.13
from their sins.
00:25:30.16\00:25:32.39
And I think one of the ways
00:25:32.43\00:25:34.50
He's really
getting His point across
00:25:34.53\00:25:36.73
is through the LGBT issue.
00:25:36.77\00:25:39.63
Because it is a
very prominent issue,
00:25:39.67\00:25:42.64
it's a very difficult issue.
00:25:42.67\00:25:45.37
People believe that
once gay, always gay,
00:25:45.41\00:25:48.78
and so
00:25:48.81\00:25:50.85
there are many gay Christians.
00:25:50.88\00:25:54.92
I mean, that's the
way they label themselves.
00:25:54.95\00:25:58.15
To me, that's an oxymoron
00:25:58.19\00:25:59.65
because gay comes
before a Christian,
00:25:59.69\00:26:02.42
which means gay
is more prominent.
00:26:02.46\00:26:05.49
I'm a Christian, except I'm gay.
00:26:05.53\00:26:08.40
It's not total surrender,
it's not total submission.
00:26:08.43\00:26:12.73
And so, within
the Christian world,
00:26:12.77\00:26:16.54
there are now major efforts
00:26:16.57\00:26:19.64
to get the church
00:26:19.67\00:26:21.21
to change its
position on this issue.
00:26:21.24\00:26:24.28
But in essence in changing
its position on the gay issue,
00:26:24.31\00:26:27.52
which is a sin issue,
00:26:27.55\00:26:29.22
then it's changing its position
on the sin issue altogether.
00:26:29.25\00:26:33.46
And the church is divided.
00:26:33.49\00:26:36.16
We can say
liberal, conservative,
00:26:36.19\00:26:37.89
whatever you want to call it,
00:26:37.93\00:26:39.69
but you have one, one ideology
00:26:39.73\00:26:43.63
that we must interpret Scripture
00:26:43.67\00:26:45.37
based upon today's culture.
00:26:45.40\00:26:48.30
Well, culture is ever changing.
00:26:48.34\00:26:50.67
And if we interpret Scripture
based upon today's culture,
00:26:50.71\00:26:53.78
then what is our
rule of faith in practice?
00:26:53.81\00:26:56.64
Culture. That's right.
00:26:56.68\00:26:58.18
But the Christian should really
be evaluating today's culture
00:26:58.21\00:27:01.42
through the lens of Scripture,
00:27:01.45\00:27:03.32
you see how opposite
these approaches are,
00:27:03.35\00:27:06.02
and they don't
seem to be able to,
00:27:06.05\00:27:09.32
to relate or dialog its warfare.
00:27:09.36\00:27:13.60
We're in the great controversy
between Christ and Satan.
00:27:13.63\00:27:17.77
So, with this issue,
00:27:17.80\00:27:20.17
there is quite an effort
throughout the Christian world
00:27:20.20\00:27:23.84
to get the church
to change its position.
00:27:23.87\00:27:27.21
They call it posture shift.
00:27:27.24\00:27:30.21
And my wife and I went
to a seminar in Florida
00:27:30.25\00:27:33.78
a few months ago
00:27:33.82\00:27:35.15
with the author of
this posture shift.
00:27:35.18\00:27:37.95
And I always want
to say Jim Hinson,
00:27:37.99\00:27:39.75
but he's the muppet.
00:27:39.79\00:27:41.12
He's the muppet guy.
00:27:41.16\00:27:42.49
I think it's Bill
Hinson, I think is the author
00:27:42.52\00:27:45.89
and really promoter of
this and he is interfaced,
00:27:45.93\00:27:50.63
nondenominational or whatever.
00:27:50.67\00:27:52.37
But we went to this
00:27:52.40\00:27:53.97
and it was very
interesting to see his approach
00:27:54.00\00:27:58.04
is to get the church
to change its position
00:27:58.07\00:28:00.58
to be more accommodating.
00:28:00.61\00:28:03.01
But if we're biblical,
we need to get the sinner
00:28:03.04\00:28:06.05
to go through a change of heart,
00:28:06.08\00:28:07.95
not the church to go
through a change of position.
00:28:07.98\00:28:10.89
You see, it's an
opposite approach.
00:28:10.92\00:28:13.62
Well, this sounds good
00:28:13.66\00:28:15.26
because it's all
about love and acceptance
00:28:15.29\00:28:18.66
and dialogue and conversation.
00:28:18.69\00:28:21.40
And then I have to ask,
00:28:21.43\00:28:22.76
well, but what is
the goal of all of this?
00:28:22.80\00:28:26.74
That's not the gospel.
00:28:26.77\00:28:29.27
It's a cheap gospel and cheap...
00:28:29.30\00:28:31.81
It's cheap grace.
Yeah, cheap grace.
00:28:31.84\00:28:33.88
So, this is permeating
all throughout Christianity,
00:28:33.91\00:28:38.21
including our own denomination.
00:28:38.25\00:28:40.65
And so, there was the
need to counteract this
00:28:40.68\00:28:45.52
or to address it.
00:28:45.55\00:28:48.22
Literature is being sent out.
00:28:48.26\00:28:50.96
I mean, like broadcast,
00:28:50.99\00:28:52.79
I mean, it's going
throughout all the denomination
00:28:52.83\00:28:56.97
that is promoting
this idea of posture shift
00:28:57.00\00:29:01.17
and more
embracing the gay agenda
00:29:01.20\00:29:03.94
and embracing the gay community
00:29:03.97\00:29:06.78
without showing them the
need of their savior from sin.
00:29:06.81\00:29:11.55
So, I have been
contacted by people
00:29:11.58\00:29:14.88
from every level
of our denomination
00:29:14.92\00:29:17.25
when some of this literature
was being distributed broadly.
00:29:17.29\00:29:21.26
And they were
alarmed and they're saying,
00:29:21.29\00:29:24.09
what do you think about it
00:29:24.13\00:29:25.46
because it was
addressing the gay issue
00:29:25.49\00:29:27.20
and our ministry addresses that,
00:29:27.23\00:29:30.07
they wanted us to critique it,
00:29:30.10\00:29:31.53
they wanted us to respond to it.
00:29:31.57\00:29:33.47
We've been on panel discussions,
00:29:33.50\00:29:36.04
discussing these issues.
00:29:36.07\00:29:38.41
And finally, it was suggested
00:29:38.44\00:29:40.44
that we come up
with our own resource
00:29:40.48\00:29:43.01
that would be biblical.
00:29:43.04\00:29:45.95
And you notice on
the top of the book,
00:29:45.98\00:29:49.32
I have the little caption
here, guided by the Word of God.
00:29:49.35\00:29:52.89
Yes.
00:29:52.92\00:29:54.26
True science and research
00:29:54.29\00:29:56.36
and the voice of
experience and reason.
00:29:56.39\00:30:00.36
That's one of my
favorite texts, Yvonne,
00:30:00.40\00:30:02.43
is in Isaiah 1 where God says,
00:30:02.46\00:30:04.87
"Come now, let
us reason together."
00:30:04.90\00:30:07.64
I love that
because God is saying,
00:30:07.67\00:30:10.34
well, let's talk about it.
00:30:10.37\00:30:12.04
I'll listen to
your point of view,
00:30:12.07\00:30:13.64
will you listen to mine?
00:30:13.68\00:30:15.01
Yeah.
00:30:15.04\00:30:16.38
I think He wants to be
included in the discussion.
00:30:16.41\00:30:18.75
And I'm pretty sure
00:30:18.78\00:30:20.12
He'd like to have the last word.
00:30:20.15\00:30:21.75
You think?
00:30:21.78\00:30:23.89
And so, our material
with Coming Out Ministries
00:30:23.92\00:30:27.26
is biblical.
00:30:27.29\00:30:28.82
It is scientific,
00:30:28.86\00:30:31.43
and it is based upon experience.
00:30:31.46\00:30:33.93
We've all been there.
00:30:33.96\00:30:35.83
And we love to reason with God.
00:30:35.86\00:30:38.80
And so that's the format.
00:30:38.83\00:30:41.24
And what I love,
00:30:41.27\00:30:42.94
one of the things
I love about you guys
00:30:42.97\00:30:44.64
is that you have a
relationship with God.
00:30:44.67\00:30:48.14
You've been through, you know,
we've all had our journeys,
00:30:48.18\00:30:52.65
and you have been
through this specific area
00:30:52.68\00:30:56.72
that gives you credibility.
00:30:56.75\00:30:59.32
It's not like,
you know, I can't,
00:30:59.35\00:31:02.82
you can't, I can't talk
about the white experience,
00:31:02.86\00:31:04.76
you can't talk
about the black experience
00:31:04.79\00:31:06.36
because I'm black, you're white.
00:31:06.39\00:31:07.73
Well, I can talk about it.
00:31:07.76\00:31:09.10
Well, you know what I'm saying,
00:31:09.13\00:31:10.47
but from a place of
having experienced it.
00:31:10.50\00:31:12.73
Right, right.
00:31:12.77\00:31:14.10
You know, we have that,
00:31:14.14\00:31:15.47
we have our own lens
through which we look at life.
00:31:15.50\00:31:19.37
And so, what the
other, the other people
00:31:19.41\00:31:25.28
that have
written other literature,
00:31:25.31\00:31:27.32
they're trying
to change the lens
00:31:27.35\00:31:30.05
so that you're looking at sin
and calling it something else,
00:31:30.09\00:31:34.82
calling it, you
know what it's not.
00:31:34.86\00:31:37.63
Sin is sin.
00:31:37.66\00:31:39.43
And so, what you guys do
is say, hey, there is victory.
00:31:39.46\00:31:43.60
There is victory
through the Word of God,
00:31:43.63\00:31:46.87
through you can
debunk some of this stuff
00:31:46.90\00:31:49.67
through true
science, not pseudoscience,
00:31:49.70\00:31:52.71
but true science and research
00:31:52.74\00:31:54.71
and the voice of
experience and reason.
00:31:54.74\00:31:56.48
And I think that
is just excellent.
00:31:56.51\00:31:58.41
And the way the book is
set up is just I love it.
00:31:58.45\00:32:02.02
What made you use this metaphor
of navigating the storm?
00:32:02.05\00:32:05.95
Okay, let me just say
one thing before I go.
00:32:05.99\00:32:07.86
Yeah, yeah, sure.
00:32:07.89\00:32:09.22
Revelation 12:11, we overcome
by the blood of the Lamb
00:32:09.26\00:32:11.99
and the word of our testimony.
00:32:12.03\00:32:14.06
No one can really legitimately
argue with your experience.
00:32:14.10\00:32:18.80
But I have had
people come to me and say,
00:32:18.83\00:32:21.90
"Well, if you're
married and you have children,
00:32:21.94\00:32:23.77
you never were really
gay in the first place."
00:32:23.81\00:32:26.78
I say, "So you think
that I pretended to be gay
00:32:26.81\00:32:29.94
for all those years?"
00:32:29.98\00:32:32.11
Who's going to pretend
00:32:32.15\00:32:34.15
if you're going
through that culture
00:32:34.18\00:32:36.42
and you're living that life
00:32:36.45\00:32:38.32
and have nothing to do
with the same gender intimately
00:32:38.35\00:32:42.69
for all those years?
00:32:42.72\00:32:44.53
Isn't that a
pretty good indication
00:32:44.56\00:32:45.89
that it was genuine?
00:32:45.93\00:32:48.06
But, the, navigating the storms,
00:32:48.10\00:32:52.63
I, when I was a
young college student,
00:32:52.67\00:32:56.94
I got interested in flying
and my high school roommate
00:32:56.97\00:33:01.31
who didn't even
have a driver's license
00:33:01.34\00:33:03.21
to drive a car
00:33:03.24\00:33:04.61
went through and
got his pilot's license
00:33:04.65\00:33:07.25
and then his instrument rating
and then his instructors rating
00:33:07.28\00:33:10.25
and all of that.
00:33:10.29\00:33:11.62
And now we're in college.
00:33:11.65\00:33:13.15
And I thought, I
want to learn to fly.
00:33:13.19\00:33:16.59
I was a little nervous
00:33:16.62\00:33:17.96
because I'm thinking
if he can't drive a car,
00:33:17.99\00:33:19.49
can he really fly a plane?
00:33:19.53\00:33:21.80
Did you want to fly with him
00:33:21.83\00:33:23.40
because he couldn't drive a car?
00:33:23.43\00:33:24.77
But he was a good instructor.
00:33:24.80\00:33:27.24
And so, I took flying
lessons from him and it came,
00:33:27.27\00:33:31.74
you know, I did my
solo flight and survived.
00:33:31.77\00:33:34.98
And then it came time for
me to do my solo cross country,
00:33:35.01\00:33:39.21
which was from Collegedale
00:33:39.25\00:33:41.02
near Chattanooga to
Huntsville, Alabama,
00:33:41.05\00:33:43.05
to Nashville, Tennessee,
and back to Collegedale.
00:33:43.08\00:33:46.69
The plane wouldn't
crank that I was to fly,
00:33:46.72\00:33:49.89
he had to prop it, if
you know what that means.
00:33:49.92\00:33:51.76
He had to spin
the prop to start it.
00:33:51.79\00:33:54.30
And he said when
you get to Huntsville,
00:33:54.33\00:33:55.66
they're going to
change out the battery
00:33:55.70\00:33:57.10
and then then you'll be
able to start it from then on.
00:33:57.13\00:34:00.00
And...
00:34:00.04\00:34:01.37
Were you flying solo?
00:34:01.40\00:34:02.74
I was flying solo. Oh.
00:34:02.77\00:34:04.11
And I'm thinking, do I
really want to do this?
00:34:04.14\00:34:07.31
Well, I did and I
got to Huntsville,
00:34:07.34\00:34:10.11
they changed out the battery
00:34:10.15\00:34:12.38
and I went to crank it
and it wouldn't crank again.
00:34:12.41\00:34:14.62
It wasn't the battery.
00:34:14.65\00:34:16.15
They had to prop
it in Huntsville.
00:34:16.18\00:34:18.22
Well, I'm on my solo
flight, so I need to keep going.
00:34:18.25\00:34:21.92
So, they propped
it and I took off
00:34:21.96\00:34:23.46
and between
Huntsville and Nashville,
00:34:23.49\00:34:25.69
I got caught in
a storm like this.
00:34:25.73\00:34:28.30
A lightning
thunderstorm and I panicked
00:34:28.33\00:34:32.00
and there are no
windshield wipers
00:34:32.03\00:34:33.40
on the windshield
00:34:33.44\00:34:34.90
and I couldn't see
00:34:34.94\00:34:36.27
but I, you know,
I was flying visual.
00:34:36.30\00:34:39.94
And, but then I
thought I've got,
00:34:39.97\00:34:43.31
I've got to get out of here.
00:34:43.35\00:34:44.71
And I looked around and
I saw an area to the south.
00:34:44.75\00:34:48.72
That was, was
light, an area of light
00:34:48.75\00:34:52.52
and I just turned my
plane and flew to the light.
00:34:52.55\00:34:55.02
You can see object
lessons in all of this.
00:34:55.06\00:34:56.39
I can.
00:34:56.42\00:34:57.76
So, I flew to the light
and I got out of this storm.
00:34:57.79\00:35:01.20
Well, now I'm way off course.
00:35:01.23\00:35:03.93
But with a map in one
hand and my eyes on the ground,
00:35:03.97\00:35:07.87
I finally
figured out where I was.
00:35:07.90\00:35:10.97
And I reoriented and I corrected
00:35:11.01\00:35:16.81
and recharted my
course towards Nashville
00:35:16.85\00:35:20.88
and I landed there safely.
00:35:20.92\00:35:23.69
Again, the plane wouldn't crank
00:35:23.72\00:35:25.75
and I had to get it propped
to fly back to Collegedale,
00:35:25.79\00:35:29.22
but there, I tell that
story with much more detail
00:35:29.26\00:35:33.93
and interest in the book.
00:35:33.96\00:35:35.76
That's how it starts out.
00:35:35.80\00:35:37.67
And then I go from
there to make application.
00:35:37.70\00:35:41.70
Because the application
00:35:41.74\00:35:46.07
of your journey through life,
00:35:46.11\00:35:50.08
and especially
today we have these,
00:35:50.11\00:35:52.85
the world is turned upside
down in chaos and confusion
00:35:52.88\00:35:56.45
with the storms of
contemporary sexuality,
00:35:56.48\00:35:59.92
gender identity,
and the issue of love.
00:35:59.95\00:36:02.86
Everything is
upside down and backwards.
00:36:02.89\00:36:05.33
And so, I use that analogy
00:36:05.36\00:36:08.33
and go through how to navigate
00:36:08.36\00:36:11.93
these storms successfully.
00:36:11.97\00:36:15.50
And so that's basically
how the book starts out.
00:36:15.54\00:36:19.71
And then I make applications
all the way through.
00:36:19.74\00:36:22.04
Yes.
00:36:22.08\00:36:23.41
Tell us what you want the reader
00:36:23.45\00:36:26.51
to get from this book?
00:36:26.55\00:36:29.68
First of all, I
want him to understand
00:36:29.72\00:36:32.09
that none of us can
navigate the storms of life
00:36:32.12\00:36:36.93
or sexuality without training,
00:36:36.96\00:36:42.26
without a guide.
00:36:42.30\00:36:43.83
And so, I talked
00:36:43.87\00:36:45.20
about how we need to
trust our instructor.
00:36:45.23\00:36:48.34
Find an instructor
we can really trust
00:36:48.37\00:36:51.07
and Jesus who was
willing to die for us,
00:36:51.11\00:36:54.88
I think we can trust Him.
00:36:54.91\00:36:56.24
I think so.
Right, as an instructor.
00:36:56.28\00:36:58.61
We need to trust our training
00:36:58.65\00:37:02.18
and follow our training
and know our limitations.
00:37:02.22\00:37:06.92
We need to be able
to chart our course.
00:37:06.96\00:37:11.13
Life will just throw us
in every which direction,
00:37:11.16\00:37:14.03
toss us to and fro.
00:37:14.06\00:37:15.70
We need to chart our course,
00:37:15.73\00:37:17.07
we need to use
reliable equipment.
00:37:17.10\00:37:19.53
We need to.
00:37:19.57\00:37:21.80
If we're thrown off course,
00:37:21.84\00:37:24.17
we need to know how
to get back on course.
00:37:24.21\00:37:26.84
You know, the gay community
talks about orientation
00:37:26.88\00:37:30.41
as something that is
fixed, that cannot be altered.
00:37:30.45\00:37:33.92
The word
orientation in the dictionary
00:37:33.95\00:37:37.05
is defined as a
direction of choice.
00:37:37.09\00:37:40.89
And if that's not good enough,
00:37:40.92\00:37:42.69
then use the word reorientation.
00:37:42.72\00:37:45.79
And so, we go
through all of these steps
00:37:45.83\00:37:48.03
about how to
navigate through these storms
00:37:48.06\00:37:51.43
and come out
safely at the other end.
00:37:51.47\00:37:54.40
That sounds so good, you know,
00:37:54.44\00:37:56.54
and from what I
could see of the book,
00:37:56.57\00:37:58.27
it is just, it's
so very well laid out
00:37:58.31\00:38:00.88
and put together.
00:38:00.91\00:38:03.11
What were some of the challenges
00:38:03.14\00:38:04.48
that you faced
when writing the book?
00:38:04.51\00:38:07.52
If any?
00:38:07.55\00:38:09.18
Oh, writer's block. Really.
00:38:09.22\00:38:11.85
Distractions.
00:38:11.89\00:38:13.66
You know, when I
wrote my first book,
00:38:13.69\00:38:15.59
I was given four weeks,
00:38:15.62\00:38:16.96
I was given a
four-week deadline.
00:38:16.99\00:38:19.06
If I could do, get a
manuscript on the desk,
00:38:19.09\00:38:21.93
on this particular date,
00:38:21.96\00:38:23.30
four weeks
later, they had a slot
00:38:23.33\00:38:25.47
that they could publish
it three years after that.
00:38:25.50\00:38:29.60
And so, for 14 hours a day,
00:38:29.64\00:38:31.81
all I did was work on that book.
00:38:31.84\00:38:34.18
And it's a much
bigger book than this,
00:38:34.21\00:38:35.98
but I got it on the
desk on the deadline.
00:38:36.01\00:38:38.31
In four weeks? In four weeks.
00:38:38.35\00:38:41.35
This book, I started it probably
00:38:41.38\00:38:45.25
maybe even a year before
I was able to get it done.
00:38:45.29\00:38:49.19
Because our full-time
ministry, we're traveling,
00:38:49.22\00:38:52.89
and we're doing all kinds of,
00:38:52.93\00:38:55.86
they're just all
kinds of obligations
00:38:55.90\00:38:57.63
and I became the
treasurer of the ministry.
00:38:57.67\00:39:01.47
Oh, I don't, I don't
wish that on anybody.
00:39:01.50\00:39:03.84
And, you know, I
almost pulling my hair out
00:39:06.98\00:39:10.31
trying to, to be
on top of things.
00:39:10.35\00:39:13.28
And so, I had all
these constant distractions.
00:39:13.31\00:39:15.98
And there was, see
there was no deadline,
00:39:16.02\00:39:20.26
without a deadline,
without a definite date,
00:39:20.29\00:39:23.83
I kept putting it aside.
00:39:23.86\00:39:25.83
When finally we
came up with a deadline
00:39:25.86\00:39:27.56
and I cranked it out.
00:39:27.60\00:39:30.23
And when you, when
you're writing a book,
00:39:30.27\00:39:31.97
if you just stay
focused, then it'll flow.
00:39:32.00\00:39:34.94
But if you get going
to, in too many directions,
00:39:34.97\00:39:38.74
then the book's not
going to flow very well.
00:39:38.77\00:39:40.94
Yes.
00:39:40.98\00:39:42.31
But I would like to say
that, that this book was,
00:39:42.34\00:39:45.61
in essence, it was requested,
00:39:45.65\00:39:47.88
people throughout our
denomination were saying
00:39:47.92\00:39:51.35
we need something biblical,
00:39:51.39\00:39:52.85
we need
something that's Adventist,
00:39:52.89\00:39:55.22
that reflects Adventist theology
00:39:55.26\00:39:57.09
instead of
non-Adventist theology.
00:39:57.13\00:40:00.53
We don't want an
Adventist edition
00:40:00.56\00:40:03.20
of a non-Adventist book.
00:40:03.23\00:40:05.20
We want an Adventist
edition of Adventist theology.
00:40:05.23\00:40:09.00
And so... Which
is biblical theology.
00:40:09.04\00:40:10.87
Right.
00:40:10.91\00:40:12.24
When I say Adventist, of course,
00:40:12.27\00:40:13.61
I'm thinking biblical
00:40:13.64\00:40:14.98
because if
Adventism wasn't biblical,
00:40:15.01\00:40:16.64
I'd be something else.
00:40:16.68\00:40:18.01
Right. Exactly.
00:40:18.05\00:40:20.22
So, this book
was written in mind
00:40:20.25\00:40:23.55
for the pastors
that were asking for it,
00:40:23.59\00:40:26.15
teachers, many families
and friends of gay people
00:40:26.19\00:40:30.93
are very frustrated
00:40:30.96\00:40:32.29
because they have all of
these conflicting ideologies
00:40:32.33\00:40:35.56
and voices out there.
00:40:35.60\00:40:37.73
And it was
designed to be a biblical,
00:40:37.77\00:40:41.00
well, I can say on
top, a biblical, scientific,
00:40:41.04\00:40:43.41
experiential,
reasonable guide to help people
00:40:43.44\00:40:48.64
navigate through this storm
00:40:48.68\00:40:50.71
of contemporary sexuality, so.
00:40:50.75\00:40:55.18
What audiences are you
really trying to reach?
00:40:55.22\00:40:59.89
It's not really
just for Adventist
00:40:59.92\00:41:02.49
because I want to make
sure that our viewers know that.
00:41:02.52\00:41:05.93
If you are that
Adventist, that's great.
00:41:05.96\00:41:08.06
But if you're a Christian,
00:41:08.10\00:41:10.10
this is, this is
really, really an important book
00:41:10.13\00:41:12.97
and for the
non-Christian as well.
00:41:13.00\00:41:15.14
Correct.
00:41:15.17\00:41:16.50
Well, we have the
position that I mean,
00:41:16.54\00:41:19.64
many people want to know
00:41:19.67\00:41:21.01
how do I fix my
son or fix my husband,
00:41:21.04\00:41:24.38
or my brother or my daughter.
00:41:24.41\00:41:26.82
Well, we don't address
the gay issue right up front.
00:41:26.85\00:41:31.95
Jesus said, seek ye
first the kingdom of God
00:41:31.99\00:41:34.76
and His righteousness,
00:41:34.79\00:41:36.19
and all these things
shall be added unto you.
00:41:36.22\00:41:38.79
So we advise people,
help this person see Jesus,
00:41:38.83\00:41:43.93
learn of Jesus, know Jesus,
00:41:43.97\00:41:46.33
develop a
relationship with Jesus,
00:41:46.37\00:41:48.64
the Holy Spirit
will lead them in a path
00:41:48.67\00:41:51.57
and the gay issue may
come up way down the list.
00:41:51.61\00:41:55.58
And so, yeah, this
book is written for well...
00:41:55.61\00:41:59.31
They need to show people
00:41:59.35\00:42:00.75
that Jesus is the
instructor we can trust,
00:42:00.78\00:42:05.02
His Word is reliable.
00:42:05.05\00:42:08.32
And so, it's to lead
people to Christ first,
00:42:08.36\00:42:13.43
and then applying His
methods to the sin issue,
00:42:13.46\00:42:18.93
the gay issue
or any other issue,
00:42:18.97\00:42:21.47
and it works and that's
what I did in my life, Yvonne,
00:42:21.50\00:42:24.71
I, when I came to acknowledge,
according to Jeremiah 3,
00:42:24.74\00:42:28.61
that
homosexuality was a sin issue.
00:42:28.64\00:42:31.71
And I've been using
all of these excuses
00:42:31.75\00:42:33.88
all my life, born this way,
00:42:33.92\00:42:35.25
once gay, always gay,
it's acceptable and all that.
00:42:35.28\00:42:38.59
But facing the Word of
God, I had to acknowledge.
00:42:38.62\00:42:41.46
No, this is a sin issue.
00:42:41.49\00:42:43.46
And then God says, only
acknowledge your iniquity,
00:42:43.49\00:42:46.93
Jeremiah 3, and I
will heal your backsliding.
00:42:46.96\00:42:50.10
He came to save us from sin,
not an acceptable lifestyle,
00:42:50.13\00:42:55.50
or not from, from the sin issue.
00:42:55.54\00:42:59.57
And so, and accepting
that it was a sin issue,
00:42:59.61\00:43:04.11
I simply then
applied God's remedy for sin.
00:43:04.15\00:43:08.48
And so, though
this is talking a lot
00:43:08.52\00:43:10.39
about contemporary
sexuality, identity and love,
00:43:10.42\00:43:14.29
in essence it's
talking about sin.
00:43:14.32\00:43:16.73
Navigating the
storms of temptation.
00:43:16.76\00:43:20.03
Satan may hit you
with a crosswind, headwind,
00:43:20.06\00:43:22.63
tailwind, violent storm
of temptation, whatever.
00:43:22.66\00:43:26.60
You can navigate
through all of those storms
00:43:26.63\00:43:29.64
that you might be facing
00:43:29.67\00:43:31.67
if you follow the
same simple pattern,
00:43:31.71\00:43:34.21
the remedy for sin.
00:43:34.24\00:43:35.64
God has one
program for all sin issues.
00:43:35.68\00:43:39.71
He doesn't have one
program for the gay issue,
00:43:39.75\00:43:42.92
another program for
the alcoholic issue,
00:43:42.95\00:43:45.22
another program for
the lying and pride issues.
00:43:45.25\00:43:49.49
It's one program
for the sin issue.
00:43:49.52\00:43:52.29
So this book is
really about overcoming sin.
00:43:52.33\00:43:57.63
And that is so key because
and that's one of the things
00:43:57.67\00:44:01.94
I love about
Coming Out Ministries
00:44:01.97\00:44:03.51
is that, yes, you,
00:44:03.54\00:44:06.04
many of you have come
out of that the gay culture,
00:44:06.07\00:44:09.91
but there are also other sins
00:44:09.94\00:44:13.28
that people are
trying to deal with.
00:44:13.31\00:44:14.72
And so, you look at it
from a broad perspective,
00:44:14.75\00:44:17.52
from the perspective of
sin, whether it's LBGTQ,
00:44:17.55\00:44:21.82
whether it's pornography,
whether it's sexual sin,
00:44:21.86\00:44:25.56
whether it's alcoholism,
addiction, whatever, lust,
00:44:25.59\00:44:29.46
whatever it is, sin,
there's victory for sin.
00:44:29.50\00:44:35.04
But as you
mentioned, in Jeremiah 3,
00:44:35.07\00:44:37.44
you have to
acknowledge that it's sin.
00:44:37.47\00:44:40.51
And I think that's a big thing.
00:44:40.54\00:44:42.14
Nowadays, it's like,
if you call it a sin,
00:44:42.18\00:44:45.11
people are insulted.
00:44:45.15\00:44:47.55
It's like you
can't say it's sin.
00:44:47.58\00:44:49.45
And that's the
difficulty we face today.
00:44:49.48\00:44:52.72
You can't, you
cannot speak the truth
00:44:52.75\00:44:55.82
without being
called a hate monger.
00:44:55.86\00:44:58.26
Yes, a homophobic or...
00:44:58.29\00:44:59.96
Yes. Yeah.
00:45:00.00\00:45:01.33
So rather than
reason together, when you,
00:45:01.36\00:45:05.77
if you have a
difference of opinion,
00:45:05.80\00:45:07.47
and it takes two to
have a difference of opinion.
00:45:07.50\00:45:10.81
So why is one
hate and the other not?
00:45:10.84\00:45:13.61
And why is one
that is so hateful,
00:45:13.64\00:45:16.41
talking about love,
00:45:16.44\00:45:18.08
rather than one
that is so loving
00:45:18.11\00:45:19.81
is called hate.
00:45:19.85\00:45:21.32
See, the Bible
even talks about this,
00:45:21.35\00:45:23.42
how things will be upside down.
00:45:23.45\00:45:25.95
Good will be called evil,
00:45:25.99\00:45:27.96
the just will
become unjust and so forth.
00:45:27.99\00:45:32.39
It's really a
sad state of affairs.
00:45:32.43\00:45:35.60
And I think it really tells you
00:45:35.63\00:45:36.97
where we are in the
overall scheme of things
00:45:37.00\00:45:39.63
that you cannot even
reason with so many people.
00:45:39.67\00:45:44.34
If you have a
difference of opinion,
00:45:44.37\00:45:46.27
there's no
discussion but I'll tell you,
00:45:46.31\00:45:50.11
when we convince people
00:45:50.15\00:45:52.21
that this is a sin issue
according to the Word of God,
00:45:52.25\00:45:55.52
you ought to see
the lights come on.
00:45:55.55\00:45:58.42
When they realize
00:45:58.45\00:45:59.79
that they're
dealing with a sin issue.
00:45:59.82\00:46:02.52
It may sound ironic,
00:46:02.56\00:46:04.69
but when they
realize it's a sin issue,
00:46:04.73\00:46:06.59
all of a sudden,
they realize there's hope.
00:46:06.63\00:46:08.50
Yes.
00:46:08.53\00:46:09.86
Because Jesus came
to save them from sin.
00:46:09.90\00:46:11.57
Yes.
00:46:11.60\00:46:12.93
And if they're not acknowledging
00:46:12.97\00:46:14.30
that it is a sin
issue, there's no hope.
00:46:14.34\00:46:17.07
They're stuck. You're stuck.
00:46:17.11\00:46:18.47
Right, right.
00:46:18.51\00:46:20.04
Oh, that's, that's
so beautiful, really,
00:46:20.08\00:46:22.74
that the bondage can be broken.
00:46:22.78\00:46:26.05
You have also a pamphlet
00:46:26.08\00:46:29.32
that has been written
00:46:29.35\00:46:31.69
with some, some
principles in it.
00:46:31.72\00:46:34.76
Tell us about that?
00:46:34.79\00:46:36.12
Well, I wrote a pamphlet.
00:46:36.16\00:46:40.76
It's similar to, well,
it's called Turbulence Ahead.
00:46:40.80\00:46:44.97
Okay.
00:46:45.00\00:46:46.33
So using the same navigation?
00:46:46.37\00:46:47.70
And it's really
thoughts and concerns
00:46:47.74\00:46:49.14
about some of these principles
00:46:49.17\00:46:50.64
for we talked about the
posture shift principle.
00:46:50.67\00:46:56.34
But the things that
are being promoted now
00:46:56.38\00:46:58.81
throughout theology
in the Christian world
00:46:58.85\00:47:01.95
are the posture shift,
00:47:01.98\00:47:03.69
another idea is to learn to love
00:47:03.72\00:47:05.79
and nurture our
gay young people.
00:47:05.82\00:47:08.42
But then I have to add, see,
00:47:08.46\00:47:10.69
I'm very
simplistic in my thinking.
00:47:10.73\00:47:13.16
And I like to be logical.
00:47:13.19\00:47:14.83
And I think if I
weren't a pastor,
00:47:14.86\00:47:16.30
I probably would
have taken up law
00:47:16.33\00:47:17.87
because I like to be,
00:47:17.90\00:47:20.07
I like the
sequence of logical steps.
00:47:20.10\00:47:24.14
But when somebody says,
00:47:24.17\00:47:25.87
"We need to love and
nurture our gay young people."
00:47:25.91\00:47:29.14
Then I say, "Well,
what kind of love."
00:47:29.18\00:47:31.01
Right.
00:47:31.05\00:47:32.38
We can love them
down the Broadway
00:47:32.41\00:47:33.85
to destruction.
00:47:33.88\00:47:35.98
That's the easy
way or we can love them
00:47:36.02\00:47:38.45
into and up the
narrow way to eternal life.
00:47:38.49\00:47:42.62
So, when we talk
about loving them,
00:47:42.66\00:47:45.63
we have to determine
00:47:45.66\00:47:47.00
what kind of
love as a Christian.
00:47:47.03\00:47:50.40
Another statement that is made
00:47:50.43\00:47:51.97
is that it's not
our responsibility
00:47:52.00\00:47:54.90
to try to change a
gay person's orientation
00:47:54.94\00:47:57.67
or identity.
00:47:57.71\00:47:59.81
Well, everyone coming to Christ
has to change orientation.
00:47:59.84\00:48:04.35
That's what conversion means.
00:48:04.38\00:48:06.01
Yes. Right?
00:48:06.05\00:48:07.45
If I'm converted,
I'm being changed.
00:48:07.48\00:48:11.42
So why is it
that the gay Christian
00:48:11.45\00:48:15.72
cannot be converted,
00:48:15.76\00:48:18.06
but every other
Christian must be converted?
00:48:18.09\00:48:20.96
See, again, it's
logic that I'm looking at.
00:48:21.00\00:48:25.60
I want to address when
these statements are made,
00:48:25.63\00:48:30.01
I have to see
that it's consistent
00:48:30.04\00:48:31.44
and that is logical.
00:48:31.47\00:48:33.27
Even if I weren't
looking at the Word of God,
00:48:33.31\00:48:35.61
I'm looking for the logic
00:48:35.64\00:48:37.41
because God wants
us to be reasonable.
00:48:37.45\00:48:39.11
Right.
00:48:39.15\00:48:40.85
Another statement is that
God loves them unconditionally.
00:48:40.88\00:48:44.75
God loves everybody.
00:48:44.79\00:48:46.86
I mean, He loves the lost.
00:48:46.89\00:48:48.59
Jesus died for us
00:48:48.62\00:48:49.96
while we were yet
sinners and enemies.
00:48:49.99\00:48:52.43
So that's, that's
almost like a duh statement
00:48:52.46\00:48:56.87
that God loves him
and you want to go duh.
00:48:56.90\00:49:00.80
Yes, but God loves the lost.
00:49:00.84\00:49:05.04
Right. And He came to save them.
00:49:05.07\00:49:07.18
And I don't mean to
be flippant about it,
00:49:07.21\00:49:08.94
but, you know, we
need to be real here.
00:49:08.98\00:49:12.01
Yes.
00:49:12.05\00:49:13.38
Do you think it's
important, it's so important to,
00:49:13.42\00:49:16.52
to go past the emotion
00:49:16.55\00:49:18.95
because there's so much
emotion tied up into it.
00:49:18.99\00:49:22.36
But to look at it logically,
00:49:22.39\00:49:24.26
I think that's
really, really important.
00:49:24.29\00:49:26.26
What are some of the others?
00:49:26.29\00:49:27.76
A couple more real quick
before we run out of time.
00:49:27.80\00:49:30.53
Gay Christians may
be deeply religious.
00:49:30.57\00:49:34.54
And immediately my mind said,
pagans are deeply religious.
00:49:34.57\00:49:39.97
I mean, you have
radical Islamic terrorists
00:49:40.01\00:49:43.11
that are deeply religious.
00:49:43.14\00:49:45.45
That's not enough, Yvonne.
00:49:45.48\00:49:47.52
Deeply religious is not enough.
00:49:47.55\00:49:49.08
Jesus said, not everyone
that says unto me, Lord, Lord,
00:49:49.12\00:49:52.29
now shall enter
the kingdom of heaven.
00:49:52.32\00:49:53.79
That's right.
Who calls Him Lord?
00:49:53.82\00:49:55.62
Christians.
00:49:55.66\00:49:56.99
Jesus saying not even
every Christian, much less,
00:49:57.03\00:49:59.83
everyone who's religious.
00:49:59.86\00:50:01.20
See, that's not enough.
00:50:01.23\00:50:02.56
People can
choose their behaviors
00:50:02.60\00:50:03.93
but not their identity.
00:50:03.97\00:50:06.07
Well, why do I identify
with Satan's plan for my life
00:50:06.10\00:50:11.01
instead of identifying
with God's plan for my life?
00:50:11.04\00:50:14.28
Temptation reveals
Satan's plan for my life.
00:50:14.31\00:50:17.95
And Jesus was
tempted in all points
00:50:17.98\00:50:19.88
like as we are yet without sin.
00:50:19.91\00:50:22.08
He did not
choose His temptations,
00:50:22.12\00:50:24.35
but He certainly
chose His identity,
00:50:24.39\00:50:27.29
that He was a son of God.
00:50:27.32\00:50:29.26
And we can do the same as
sons and daughters of God.
00:50:29.29\00:50:34.40
The last one here is we believe
00:50:34.43\00:50:35.76
that sharing God's
love and acceptance
00:50:35.80\00:50:37.27
is a necessary condition of
being faithful to the Bible.
00:50:37.30\00:50:41.20
And I would just
say love and acceptance
00:50:41.24\00:50:43.00
is a very dangerous doctrine.
00:50:43.04\00:50:46.11
How's so, 'cause it
sound so loving and accepting.
00:50:46.14\00:50:50.41
Every religion can
preach love and acceptance.
00:50:50.45\00:50:54.22
And the whole world can
be united under one leader
00:50:54.25\00:50:57.85
under a doctrine of
love and acceptance.
00:50:57.89\00:51:00.96
But all scripture is
given by inspiration of God
00:51:00.99\00:51:03.79
and is profitable for
doctrine, reproof, correction,
00:51:03.83\00:51:06.83
instruction,
all of those things.
00:51:06.86\00:51:08.60
There's much more
than love and acceptance.
00:51:08.63\00:51:09.96
Yes.
00:51:10.00\00:51:11.33
There's surrender,
there's discipleship,
00:51:11.37\00:51:12.87
there's
transformation of character.
00:51:12.90\00:51:15.60
Yes.
00:51:15.64\00:51:16.97
That is all needed
through the power of God.
00:51:17.01\00:51:18.34
Yes.
00:51:18.37\00:51:19.71
And I know that
people are going to want
00:51:19.74\00:51:21.08
to reach you to contact you,
00:51:21.11\00:51:23.31
Coming Out Ministries,
they want to get your book.
00:51:23.35\00:51:26.78
Let's go to an
address roll in just a moment.
00:51:26.82\00:51:29.72
We're going to find out
just how they can reach you,
00:51:29.75\00:51:33.05
how they can get the book.
00:51:33.09\00:51:34.42
And the booklet,
this pamphlet is free,
00:51:34.46\00:51:37.13
isn't it?
00:51:37.16\00:51:38.49
Yes, it's free. It's free.
00:51:38.53\00:51:39.86
We would love
for this to be free
00:51:39.89\00:51:41.26
but we don't have the resources.
00:51:41.30\00:51:42.63
Absolutely.
00:51:42.66\00:51:44.00
But we do have it
very priced very, very low.
00:51:44.03\00:51:46.20
Great. Great.
00:51:46.23\00:51:47.57
So, let's check it out
and see how we can get it.
00:51:47.60\00:51:52.21
For more information
about Coming Out Ministries
00:51:52.24\00:51:54.44
or to support their efforts,
00:51:54.48\00:51:56.31
please contact them
by going to their website
00:51:56.34\00:51:58.35
at ComingOutMinistries.org.
00:51:58.38\00:52:00.72
That's ComingOutMinistries.org.
00:52:00.75\00:52:04.29
You may also call
them at 870-504-0173.
00:52:04.32\00:52:09.62
That's 870-504-0173.
00:52:09.66\00:52:14.76
Their mailing
address is PO Box 107,
00:52:14.80\00:52:17.77
Tilly, Arkansas 72679.
00:52:17.80\00:52:21.64
That's PO Box 107,
Tilly, Arkansas 72679.
00:52:21.67\00:52:27.04