Participants:
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY108082A
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00:02 I want to spend my life
00:07 Mending broken people 00:12 I want to spend my life 00:19 Removing pain 00:24 Lord, let my word 00:30 Heal a heart that hurts 00:34 I want to spend my life 00:40 Mending broken people 00:46 I want to spend my life 00:51 Mending broken people 01:10 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn, and we welcome you once again 01:13 to 3ABN Today, and I'm going to tell you one thing. 01:16 If you have ever wondered 01:18 how Jesus can be God and yet be the Son of God, 01:24 you want to stay tuned for this program. 01:27 I'm so excited about the program. 01:29 I'm excited about our special guest. 01:32 And let me go ahead and introduce him to you. 01:34 Ty Gibson. 01:35 Shelley, it's good to be here. 01:37 Oh, Ty, so you are a pastor, 01:39 you are the co-director for Light Bearers ministry, 01:43 you're an author, you're a speaker, 01:45 you travel around the world, 01:47 but what I appreciate about you is you are someone 01:52 who focuses on our God 01:55 as an intimate relational being, 01:58 and He has taken you on such an incredible study 02:01 that you're going to share with us today. 02:03 Yeah, yeah. 02:04 I'm on the edge of my seat for that. 02:05 I'm too. I'm too. 02:07 And so this is just something 02:09 that we want to welcome you to this program. 02:13 And we'll get to know Ty a little bit more 02:15 if he's new to you, to the 3ABN audience, 02:19 who have been with us for a long time, 02:21 everybody knows Ty Gibson. 02:23 But we just want to take this opportunity 02:25 to thank you for your love 02:28 and your prayers and your financial support. 02:31 Without you, this mending broken people network 02:34 could not do the mission that God has called us to do. 02:38 Let me open with a scripture, 02:41 then we're going to go to a song. 02:42 I know you love music. 02:44 I do. 02:45 Hebrews 1:5 is a Scripture 02:48 that is very appropriate for this day. 02:50 Ah, This is very... 02:51 This is so good, actually. 02:53 And in Hebrews 1:5, it says, "For to which the angels..." 03:00 The whole first chapter of Hebrews is showing 03:03 how Christ is superior to the angels. 03:06 And then it says, "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 03:11 'You are My Son, today I have begotten You? 03:17 I will be to Him...'" 03:19 And again, "I will be to Him a Father, 03:21 and He shall be to Me a Son." 03:24 Mm-hm. 03:25 If you've ever wondered about that Scripture, 03:26 you're going to find out today. 03:28 But before we do, 03:32 we have someone I think is fairly new to 3ABN, Ty. 03:36 And his name is Matt Throgmorton. 03:39 He's from our local area, 03:41 and he has such a beautiful voice. 03:44 And I believe he's a director of worship at his church, 03:48 but he's going to sing for us a very familiar tune, 03:53 but it's beautiful, so listen to the words. 03:55 "Jesus Loves Me." 04:21 Jesus loves me! 04:24 This I know 04:27 For the Bible tells me so 04:33 Little ones to Him belong 04:37 They are weak, but He is strong 04:44 Yes, Jesus loves me! 05:00 The Bible tells me so 05:10 Jesus loves me! 05:13 He who died 05:16 Heaven's gate to open wide 05:21 He will wash away my sin 05:26 Let His little child come in 05:32 Yes, Jesus loves me! 05:48 The Bible tells me so 05:56 Jesus loves me! 05:59 He will stay 06:01 Close beside me all the way 06:07 He's prepared a home for me 06:12 And someday His face I'll see 06:21 Yes, Jesus loves me! 06:32 Oh, yes, 06:34 Jesus loves me! 06:40 The Bible 06:44 Tells me so 06:51 He loves me so 07:02 Oh, I love that song. 07:04 It was beautifully sung. 07:05 Yeah, yeah. 07:07 That's Matt Throgmorton from Marion, Illinois. 07:08 Thank you, Matt. 07:10 Well, if you tuned in just a moment late, 07:12 I'm trying not to clap my hands and act giddy, 07:16 but I am so excited about what we will discuss this hour, 07:22 and our special guest is Ty Gibson. 07:24 Ty, thank you so much. 07:25 It's good to be here. 07:27 It really is. 07:28 It's always good to have you here. 07:29 Let me... You know, I failed to mention. 07:32 Most people know you 07:33 because you are on one of our top five programs, 07:37 Table Talk, where the Light Bearers, 07:40 you guys sit around and... 07:42 David, Jeffrey, James, and myself. 07:44 Yeah, yeah. 07:45 And it's wonderful and we love that. 07:46 I think the reason why people love that program so much 07:50 is because they feel like they're engaged in the process 07:54 of study and they are in fact, 07:56 I mean, they can sit there with us, 07:57 open their Bibles. 07:58 And it's not just somebody preaching, 08:00 they're being invited, 08:02 you know, in a sense to sit around the table 08:04 and to discuss Scripture, 08:06 and it really emphasizes 08:09 the priesthood of all believers. 08:10 And so I think that's why people respond. 08:12 Amen. Yeah. 08:13 And I like that you all do it, 08:15 it's something like when we do family worship, 08:17 it's unvarnished, 08:19 you know, we're just out there... 08:20 Yeah, there's no script. 08:22 Yeah, and I like that. 08:23 Before we begin on this teaching, 08:25 just take a few minutes, 08:27 give us the Reader's Digest version of your history. 08:31 Did you grow up in a Christian family? 08:35 Well, the fact is, Shelley, 08:36 that I had no Christian background whatsoever. 08:40 The short version is I was raised 08:42 in a very secular home in Southern California, 08:45 and there was just a lot of pain, 08:47 a lot of suffering, won't go into the details, 08:49 but there was abuse, there was drug addiction, 08:53 the home was defined by pain. 08:57 I mean, seriously, if somebody would have said to me as a kid 09:00 or even as a teenager, you know, "Define life. 09:04 What is life?" 09:05 I would have just said pain. 09:06 That was the definition of life for me and, I think, 09:10 everybody in that home. 09:12 And there was no spiritual orientation whatsoever. 09:18 I had never heard of the Ten Commandments 09:20 for example, 09:21 I had never heard of the Book of Genesis, 09:23 I had never opened the Bible, I had heard, 09:27 you know, the words of the Bible 09:28 and I knew there was some book that people considered to be, 09:32 you know, from God in some sense, 09:33 but completely secular. 09:36 But the thing for me was that all of that pain 09:40 and the concrete evil 09:42 that I witnessed growing up created in me 09:47 a sense that there had to be something by contrast to that. 09:50 I mean, how would I know this is wrong 09:53 if there wasn't something right. 09:55 That's good. 09:56 You see what I'm saying? 09:57 How would I know this is ugly unless I could sense 10:00 on some level, and I was sensing on some level, 10:03 that there must be something beautiful 10:04 by contrast? 10:06 So I had this deep hunger 10:08 for beauty and justice and just for things to be right 10:12 in the world and in my home as a kid, 10:17 and it was that hunger inside of me 10:20 that at the opportune time, 10:22 when my mind was just primed to see things 10:27 in a different light 10:30 through a series of providential events 10:31 and two ladies, my mom and my girlfriend, 10:35 Jesus was introduced to me 10:37 in a very practical, powerful way. 10:40 And I realized for the first time in my life, 10:42 I was 18 years old, I realized that not only does God exist, 10:46 which was revolutionary enough for me, 10:50 just to accept that there is such a thing as God, 10:55 that was a big step, but the real epiphany 10:58 was not only does God exist 11:00 but God is love in the most extreme 11:04 and beautiful sense that the human mind can imagine. 11:07 So everything that I longed for of justice and beauty and... 11:11 Harmony and peace. 11:12 For things to be right wasn't just a concept or an idea, 11:17 it was embodied in a person... 11:19 Amen. 11:20 In a personal God. 11:22 And then I crossed the line and opened myself up and said, 11:26 "Okay, I believe You exist. 11:28 I believe that you are intrinsically good." 11:31 So I just embarked on a journey. 11:34 I said, "Teach me whatever it is 11:36 that I need to know about You." 11:38 And so I've spent my entire adult life 11:42 basically being guided 11:45 through a process of getting to know the personhood of God, 11:50 the way God thinks, the way God feels, 11:52 the way God behaves, 11:54 the relational patterns that God moves through. 11:57 That's what I refer to as the character of God. 12:00 Character of God is shorthand for thoughts, feelings, 12:05 and behavior patterns of God... 12:06 Yes, yes. 12:08 Who is God. 12:09 And I've spent my whole adult life 12:11 getting to know God 12:12 from that particular perspective. 12:15 And shortly thereafter, after my, you know, 12:20 what we sometimes refer to as "conversion," 12:23 my absolute radical transformation 12:26 from one kind of person 12:28 to another kind of person overnight, 12:31 began sharing my faith with friends 12:34 and just people I knew, 12:37 and that launched Light Bearers Ministry. 12:39 And I actually have a history at that point that intersects 12:41 with 3ABN 12:42 because the ministry that my wife Sue and I, 12:45 as teenagers, and our friend James Rafferty, 12:52 the ministry that we launched back then was launching 12:54 at the same time that 3ABN was launching. 12:59 Danny had a vision for 3ABN 13:04 that was formed in him by the Holy Spirit, 13:08 and we were some of the first people 13:09 who came and started doing programs. 13:10 We were ridiculously young. 13:14 I had a big giant beard and, I mean, we were kids. 13:19 I had a beard, by the way, 13:20 just to prove that I was old enough 13:23 to be on the program and talk, you know? 13:25 And then we got mail from 3ABN viewers, 13:28 "Shave that thing off! 13:29 You look like the criminal element." 13:31 You know, stuff like that. 13:32 So then I shaved it. 13:33 I've seen some of the pictures. 13:35 So anyways, there's a history that intersects with, 13:38 you know, 3ABN's beginnings 13:40 and the beginnings of the ministry 13:42 that I represent and have represented 13:44 my whole adult life pretty much, 13:45 Light Bearers, and so yeah. 13:47 And basically, what does... 13:49 I know that you and James and others, David, 13:52 you have a training school to train people for... 13:55 Yeah, we run a discipleship program 13:58 that people can actually come 13:59 and live with us, I mean, not right in our, you know, 14:02 living room and bedrooms, 14:04 we live in the same area and we have a dorm, 14:06 and people come and they live with us for three months. 14:09 And we do it twice a year 14:11 and we move through the whole Bible, 14:13 Genesis to Revelation in three months... 14:15 Oh, wow. 14:16 And we do community outreach 14:17 and evangelism in the community. 14:19 It's a discipleship program, 14:21 and it's absolutely transforming 14:24 the people who come. 14:25 And it happens every year, twice a year, 14:27 once in the US and once in Australia. 14:30 And we travel back and forth and teach it, 14:33 that's called ARISE, 14:35 that's our discipleship program. 14:37 And then also in addition to running 14:40 a discipleship program, 14:42 Light Bearers also is a publishing ministry. 14:45 We publish evangelistic literature 14:47 in like 40 languages. 14:49 And it's shipped free of charge all over the world as a gift 14:53 to the church for evangelism. 14:57 And then we do a lot of media production 15:00 as 3ABN does and our programs are actually aired on 3ABN, 15:03 and we do Table Talk and other programs. 15:06 So that's what it is, and then I do a lot of writing. 15:09 I'm actually more of a writer than anything else. 15:12 I preach and I teach, 15:15 but that ARISE is out of my passion for research 15:19 and study and writing. 15:21 You know, I just want you... 15:22 Because I'm afraid I'll forget, you... 15:26 The thing I appreciate most about your ministry 15:30 is you are always pointing to God 15:32 as an intimate and relational being. 15:36 But you have something that you say 15:39 about the three beings, 15:44 the three heavenly beings 15:45 that that is the perfect number for love. 15:48 Explain why. Yeah. 15:49 Well, if you think about it, 15:51 I do this exercise every year 15:53 with our students in the ARISE program. 15:56 One of the first things that I lead them 15:58 through is kind of a mental theological experiment, 16:01 and without giving them any clues or anything, 16:04 I say, you know, "Here's a riddle for you. 16:09 Break up into groups of two or three 16:10 and we'll walk to the river and back. 16:13 But while you're walking, 16:14 I want you to crack this riddle. 16:16 What is the minimal numeric value of love?" 16:20 And they all kind of cross their eyes 16:21 and look at each other 16:23 like minimum numeric value of love, 16:25 what does that mean? 16:26 I say, "That's what you need to figure out. 16:27 What is the minimum number of individuals 16:30 you would have to have in order for perfect love to exist?" 16:33 And they begin walking. 16:34 We get to the river and I say, "Okay, what did you discover?" 16:37 And, Shelley, it's amazing. 16:39 Every year, 16:40 it doesn't matter who the group of human beings are, 16:43 everybody comes pretty much to the same conclusion. 16:46 They banter a little bit, they say, well, 16:47 it can't be one because love can't exist 16:50 with one individual. 16:52 If you lock yourself in the bathroom for life, 16:54 you'll never experience any love. 16:56 You got to come out of the bathroom 16:57 and have some relationships 16:58 because love by its very nature is relational. 17:01 So then they say it can't be one, 17:03 one person can't experience love, 17:05 you have to have at least some other. 17:06 So maybe it's two, 17:08 so they banter about two for a while 17:09 and they say okay, so two. 17:11 "You'd have to have at least two in order 17:12 for love to exist." 17:13 I'm like yeah, okay, so... 17:15 And then they say, but if there's just two, 17:20 then you have an exclusive focus each one on the other. 17:26 But if you enter into a situation 17:28 where a third party enters the picture, 17:31 you have to psychologically adjust to being 17:35 the focus of attention and then to defer attention. 17:40 You're obligated to become selfless. 17:43 You have to actually be content for the one you love 17:47 to actually also love your other friend as well. 17:50 This happens in high school all the time. 17:52 Absolutely. 17:53 Two people are exclusive friends, you know, 17:55 you're best friends and then someone else enters the picture 17:58 and you become threatened 17:59 or you incorporate and you become a more rich 18:04 relational dynamic 18:05 because now not only does Shelley love Ty 18:08 and we're friends but you have somebody else, 18:11 you have JD, and I love JD too, and you love JD. 18:15 And, you know, it's an incredible thing. 18:18 It's a beautiful relational dynamic 18:20 on the friendship level. 18:21 A marriage needs to be exclusive... 18:23 Yeah. 18:24 With just two. 18:26 But even there, think about it, 18:27 you have two and the way God created the situation 18:30 to operate is two have the procreative ability 18:32 to create a third party. 18:34 And anybody who's ever, 18:36 you know, had children knows that 18:38 once you have a child, 18:39 you know, you need to be selfless 18:41 because you don't have the exclusive attention 18:44 anymore of your beloved. 18:46 You need to defer attention. 18:49 And so think about that for a minute. 18:51 If God is a relational unit of three, 18:54 Father, Son, and Spirit, 18:57 that epitomizes what perfect love looks like 19:01 because the Father... 19:03 Perfect love being unselfish and others-centered. 19:05 Others-centered. Yeah. 19:07 So each can focus on the other and be focused on by the other 19:12 and each also has to defer attention to a third party. 19:17 So it's this beautiful reciprocation, it's this... 19:20 Out and then to the other and then and in, 19:22 it's beautiful. 19:24 It's just... It is. 19:25 So really that bears testimony on just a pure 19:28 mathematical level, just the geometry of love. 19:31 Amen. Yeah. 19:33 The geometry of love 19:34 bears testimony to the veracity of Scripture. 19:38 Scripture is the only story told in all of human history 19:43 that portrays God as a relational dynamic. 19:46 Every other philosophy and religion 19:48 and myth about "deity" 19:52 is focusing on the solitude of a Supreme One 19:58 that exercises power over all others, 20:01 whereas the Bible comes along and says, 20:03 "You have a Supreme Three 20:05 who are each focused on the other. 20:07 Each one constantly vanishing in their focus on the other." 20:12 But when we say in extreme three, 20:14 we believe that three divine persons 20:17 equal one divine being. 20:19 Yeah, that's right, that's right. 20:20 And because they're of the same essence... 20:25 So it's not polytheism... 20:27 Right. 20:28 That is we don't believe that the Bible teaches 20:30 that there are many gods, 20:32 we believe the Bible teaches as the Shema of Israel, 20:36 the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 20:37 One. One. 20:39 Well, the word one there 20:40 is very interesting in the Hebrew. 20:42 It means a relational unit, 20:44 it doesn't mean a solitary thing. 20:46 It's a compound unity. 20:48 Yeah, it's a compound unity. 20:49 That's right. Yes. 20:50 So it's a beautiful... 20:52 Again, God is one, 20:53 and Jesus picked up this language 20:55 in the New Testament when He said, 20:57 "My Father and I are one." 20:59 So there's two, but there's one. 21:01 It shows up in the marriage relationship 21:02 of Genesis where it says of, "Adam and Eve, the two, 21:06 the man and woman shall become one." 21:09 One there doesn't mean a single solitary self, 21:13 it means more than one 21:15 who are one in character, 21:16 in essence, in purpose, in love. 21:18 Amen. Yeah. 21:19 Well said. 21:20 Okay, what I would like to do right now, 21:23 Ty has a little trailer. 21:25 He has written a book, and this book is called... 21:29 I believe it's, "The Sonship of Christ." 21:33 And the... Subtitle. 21:35 Subtitle is, "Exploring 21:37 the Covenant Identity of God and Man." 21:40 That's a good subtitle, I hope. 21:42 It's a long one. 21:44 But this book... 21:46 What happened right before a camp meeting, Ty sent me, 21:51 one day, a draft of his manuscript and he said, 21:56 "Could you read this? 21:57 It'll only take you five hours." 21:59 Well, I had two days to write a camp meeting sermon 22:01 and I'm thinking, "I don't have time 22:02 to read this." 22:04 But out of curiosity, I opened it up, 22:06 and I began reading 22:07 and I didn't stop till I finished. 22:10 What the Lord did 22:13 was take Ty on a Bible study 22:18 in which he unveiled the truth that's in plain sight. 22:23 And once you see it, you can't unsee it. 22:26 And Ty has written a book that I appreciate so much, 22:30 first your scholarship but your love for God, 22:35 but I also appreciate your humility in that 22:37 before you published this book, 22:40 you sent it to seminarians... 22:42 A lot of people. Yeah. 22:43 And had a lot of people review this. 22:45 A lot of... Yeah. 22:46 Theology professors, yeah. 22:48 A lot of peer review to make sure that every... 22:51 And everybody had the same reaction I've had. 22:54 Yeah. 22:55 I mean, I honestly believe this book 22:57 will go down in the annals of church history. 23:01 I believe this book will change Christianity because it answers 23:06 a question that so many people have and that question is 23:11 if Christ is God, 23:13 how can He also be of Son of God? 23:15 If He's the Son of God, how can He be God? 23:18 And so we'd like to run the book trailer just now 23:21 and then we're going to come back 23:23 and have Ty discuss how God led him 23:27 on this incredible study. 23:34 If you pan out from the world and deliberately observe 23:37 what's going on, 23:39 it becomes immediately evident that everything is relational. 23:42 Nothing occurs in isolation. 23:44 Life is like one big ripple effect 23:47 composed of a lot of smaller ripple effects. 23:51 Children seek out relationships with one another 23:53 and become friends for life. 23:55 Men and women enter into intimate relationships 23:59 that are just the pinnacle of what it means to be human 24:03 and what it means to experience the beauty of life. 24:07 And we all know that the most excruciating thing 24:09 that a human being can ever go through 24:11 is to endure a broken relationship. 24:14 Well, the fact is we are relational creatures. 24:18 And in my recent journey, 24:21 I've discovered that this is traceable 24:24 to the fact that God is relationship. 24:28 Down through church history, a big question has been, 24:32 who is God, what is God like. 24:35 The doctrine of the Trinity has emerged, 24:38 and some people have pushed back on the doctrine 24:40 of the Trinity and have said that it's a pagan doctrine. 24:45 Others have said that Jesus is the Son of God 24:47 and God is the Father, 24:49 so there must be some kind of relationship 24:52 between them in which the Father existed first 24:54 and then the Son emerged from the Father. 24:57 So what does the Bible actually mean 25:00 when it refers to Jesus on the one hand as God 25:04 and, on the other hand, the Son of God? 25:06 It seems like there's a tension between these two identities. 25:10 Well, I've decided that 25:12 this is a subject that is worthy 25:14 not only of my study 25:15 but something I want to share with as many people 25:17 as possible out of my own 25:20 personal journey on the subject. 25:22 So I've written a book 25:23 that I'm really excited about called " 25:25 The Sonship of Christ." 25:27 The subtitle is, 25:29 "An Exploration of the Covenant Identity of God 25:33 and Man." 25:34 It's been an exciting journey discovering 25:36 what Scripture means 25:37 when it refers to Jesus as the Son of God 25:40 on the one hand, on the other hand, 25:42 that He is in fact God. 25:44 I've looked into whether the Trinity is a true or false 25:47 doctrine, and incredible insights 25:49 have emerged regarding that as well. 25:52 The Sonship of Christ is the book that is the result 25:54 of this study, 25:56 and it's available now and I'm looking forward 25:58 to sharing it with you. 25:59 I think you're going to be immensely blessed by the book. 26:06 You know, Ty and I are just sitting here 26:08 talking as this was running, 26:09 and he told me he did this series 26:13 on this book at the University of Berkeley, 26:16 on a secular university. 26:18 What was... 26:19 It was exciting. It was exciting just to... 26:21 What was reaction? 26:22 The students were... 26:23 I mean, they packed the room out, 26:26 and they were just eager, 26:28 nobody was offended even though 26:29 it's a very secular environment, 26:31 and Christianity isn't, 26:33 you know, popular you could say on campus there, 26:35 but they packed the room out. 26:37 And they were completely tuned in to explore the idea 26:41 that God is a hyper relational being. 26:45 To them, that was beautiful, so yeah. 26:47 It is beautiful. 26:49 Okay, so tell us how God prompted you 26:54 to begin this study and then kind of give us... 26:57 I've been... 26:58 I keep teasing everybody telling that you're going 27:00 to tell us. 27:01 Yeah, well, first of all, 27:04 on the level of what prompted me 27:06 is as you know I do a lot of travelling 27:09 and teaching and preaching, 27:10 and about every other place I would go, 27:14 people were asking the same question 27:15 because this is a pretty hot topic 27:17 right now in a lot of circles. 27:20 People were asking the question, 27:21 so is Jesus God in the same sense 27:25 that the Father is God? 27:27 Did Jesus have a point of beginning? 27:29 Did He begin to exist some time in, 27:33 you know, the ancient past 27:34 or did He always exist concurrent with the Father? 27:38 And then the second question connected to that is, 27:43 is the Holy Spirit 27:46 a personal being distinct from the Father 27:50 and the Son or is the Holy Spirit 27:53 a manifestation of the Father or the Son? 27:57 Just an emanating virtue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 27:59 So the real question is, 28:01 is the trinity a valid doctrine, 28:04 a valid theological concept or is it not? 28:08 So if you really distill it down, Shelley, 28:11 the question that's being asked is, 28:14 at the most basic level is this, 28:16 when we think of God, 28:18 is God ultimately to be conceived 28:20 of as a solitary self or a relational dynamic? 28:26 If you get at the heart of the question, 28:28 that's really what the issue is. 28:31 The whole denominations 28:33 that have formed around rejecting the Trinity 28:36 and adopting the idea that God is a rigid singularity, 28:41 a solitary self, God the Father, 28:43 and then out of God the Father came the Son Jesus 28:47 at some point, we don't know the date of course, 28:49 but Jesus emerged from the Father, 28:51 and the Holy Spirit is not a person at all 28:53 but the essence or energy or power 28:56 that is emerging from the Father. 28:58 So... 29:00 And that's what some say, okay? 29:01 Somebody has just tuned in, we're not saying that, 29:03 but that is what some believe. Yeah, yeah. 29:04 So that's a doctrine that has formed whole denominations, 29:06 Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians, 29:09 Oneness Pentecostals, 29:11 certain branches of the Church of Christ, 29:13 Church of God Seventh-day until the death of its founder 29:16 and then they converted to the Trinitarian doctrine, 29:19 but... 29:21 And it goes back further than that 29:23 because this was the very subject 29:25 over which the first official 29:27 historical church council was convened, 29:32 the Council of Nicea, 29:34 and the question was this very question, 29:37 "Who is Jesus, 29:38 why is He called the Son of God in the New Testament, 29:41 and does that mean he had a point of beginning?" 29:42 And so that's what prompted the study. 29:44 I was... 29:46 Just people were asking this question... 29:47 Actually, in a grocery store, somebody said, "Hey, 29:50 I see you on television. 29:51 Are you that guy?" And I said, "Yeah." 29:53 We started talking. 29:55 "Hey..." 29:56 And that was the question they had right there 29:57 in the salsa aisle. 29:59 They wanted to know 30:01 who is Jesus really and how does... 30:03 So that's how I was prompted 30:06 to begin writing responses to people who were asking, 30:09 but then the theological prompting 30:12 came from viewing Scripture 30:16 through the most helpful lens, 30:19 the most helpful theological lens that I'm aware of, 30:22 and that is to view Scripture as a whole, 30:25 to view Scripture as a narrative, 30:27 to use Scripture as a unit, 30:30 as something being said from Genesis to Revelation 30:32 rather than the individual parts. 30:35 So it's the progressive 30:38 self-revelation of God in a narrative. 30:41 Yeah, so to the degree, Shelley, 30:42 that I am literate in the Old Testament story, 30:48 the New Testament will make sense to me. 30:50 Amen. Yeah. 30:51 So somebody asked me 30:53 not long ago, "Hey, if you could..." 30:54 I don't know where this question came from. 30:56 "Hey, if you could pull one practical joke on the church, 30:59 what would it be like, 31:01 you know, snap your fingers and do something?" 31:02 I said immediately, 31:04 I would remove all the chapter divisions 31:06 and verse divisions in Scripture, 31:08 and I'll put them back later on because it is helpful, 31:11 you know, to be able to find where you're at. 31:13 But if we look at Scripture as verses, 31:17 we're looking at the bark on the trees. 31:19 There you go. Yeah. 31:20 But if we pan out to see the whole forest, 31:23 then we're looking at the narrative of Scripture. 31:26 So here's basically the problem, let's set... 31:28 And by the way, we should insert here that 31:31 it wasn't written with chapter and verse. 31:33 That's something... It wasn't. 31:35 This was added like a few 100 years ago. 31:36 Yeah. 31:38 So we need to study the Bible, the whole thing, 31:43 read Scripture as a whole, and if we do, 31:46 we will become aware of its own intent. 31:51 Amen. 31:52 You know, what does the Bible mean when it says what it says? 31:55 So when you come to the New Testament, okay? 31:56 Let's set up the problem here. 31:58 The problem, the theological problem 32:00 that we're addressing in this discussion 32:02 and that I'm addressing in the book, 32:03 The Sonship of Christ, 32:05 When you come to the New Testament, 32:07 you read where Jesus is called, 32:10 the Firstborn Son of God in a few different Scriptures, 32:13 you read where He is called in the most famous 32:15 verse of the Bible John 3:16, 32:17 He's called The Only Begotten Son of God. 32:19 Yes. 32:20 You actually read a passage where He is referred 32:22 to as the Beginning of the Creation of God 32:24 in the Book of Revelation. 32:26 So all of this language, 32:28 people have focused in the bark on the tree. 32:32 Okay, John 3:16, it says, 32:34 He is the Only Begotten Son of God. 32:37 What's hard to understand about that someone will say? 32:40 If He is the Son and God is the Father, 32:44 they couldn't be chronologically concurrent. 32:47 The Father must... 32:49 We all know if you have a father and a son, 32:51 the father preceded, preceded in time, the son... 32:56 In human relationships, that's how it works. 32:58 I have a son, I existed before my son Jason. 33:01 So people look at the text and say, "If He is the Son, 33:04 He couldn't have always existed and He couldn't be God 33:08 in the same sense that the Father is God." 33:11 He must be in some sense like the Jehovah's Witnesses 33:13 would say, He is a God, but not God. 33:17 See? 33:19 So that... 33:20 Or as the Catholics believe in eternal generation 33:23 that He emanating from God. 33:26 Yeah, perpetually for all... Yeah. 33:29 So this is the problem in the New Testament, okay? 33:33 So people focus on that and they draw doctrine 33:36 from looking at the verses in isolation. 33:41 So I began to say to myself, "Okay, well, 33:44 wait a minute though. 33:46 I know that everything else I encounter 33:49 in the New Testament 33:50 has an Old Testament foundation." 33:53 Yes. 33:55 So I began to think, "Okay, 33:56 does this have a grounding in the Old Testament?" 33:58 Because the fact is, Shelley, I mean, think about this, 34:00 not only does the New Testament say that Jesus 34:02 is the Son of God, the firstborn Son of God, 34:05 the only begotten Son of God, 34:06 the same New Testament says He is in very nature God 34:10 and equal with God in Philippians 2. 34:12 The Fullness of the Godhead... 34:14 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 34:15 "Fullness of the Godhead in bodily form." 34:18 Matthew 1:23, when Mary gives birth to this baby, 34:22 angel says call Him Emanuel, 34:24 which being interpreted is God with us, 34:26 and 1 Timothy 3:16, which you might just, 34:30 you know, compare it to John 3:16. 34:33 John 3:16 says that He's this only begotten Son of God, 34:36 1 Timothy 3:16 says, 34:38 "Great is the mystery of godliness. 34:41 God was manifested in the flesh." 34:44 So the same New Testament that says 34:46 He's the son of God says 34:48 He is God in very nature God. 34:52 So you have a conundrum, 34:53 you have a problem, and generally, 34:56 the way the debate has gone down through church history, 35:00 is people on each side of the debate 35:03 have selected their verses. 35:06 Those who favor the "Trinitarian view" of God 35:09 have said "Well, it says He's God." 35:12 So they focus on those 35:14 and they struggle with the ones 35:16 that don't fit that paradigm, the Son of God text. 35:19 Those who favor what is sometimes called, 35:22 the Non-Trinitarian or the Anti-Trinitarian view, 35:26 focus on what it says, it says He's the firstborn Son, 35:28 it says... 35:29 And they struggle to make sense of the God 35:32 verses that say He is in very nature God. 35:34 And so you end up at, what I call, 35:36 a proof text impasse. 35:38 Yeah. 35:39 I've got my verses, you've got your verses, 35:41 let's form denominations over this. 35:43 Let's separate over this, 35:45 let's be at theological enmity over this. 35:48 But here's the thing. 35:50 The Scriptures synthesize both identities. 35:54 So here's how it works, this is what... 35:57 This is the gist of what I discovered in Scripture. 36:00 If you pan out from the bark on the trees 36:02 to look at the whole forest 36:04 and you see Scripture as a whole, 36:07 you discover, Shelley, 36:09 that this "Sonship" idea 36:12 is a theme in Scripture that is initiated 36:15 in the very beginning of the story in Genesis. 36:18 So God creates the first man, his name is Adam, 36:22 He creates the first woman, her name is Eve. 36:26 When Adam and Eve are created, 36:31 they are son and daughter of God in a unique sense, 36:34 in a primary sense in that they didn't have 36:37 a human mom and dad, right? 36:39 They're the first man, the first woman, 36:41 and then they have the power, 36:43 according to Genesis, of procreation. 36:46 So sons and daughters will come forth 36:48 from this union of Adam and Eve. 36:52 And the Scripture says that Adam... 36:53 this is in Genesis, 36:55 Adam will create sons in his image. 36:58 Yes. 37:00 So there's this succession of sons that is set up. 37:03 Well, when you fast forward to the New Testament 37:05 and you see the cohesive kind of the connective strands, 37:09 okay, when you come to the New Testament, 37:11 the Gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke, 37:15 and John tell us who Jesus is in the context 37:18 of that initial story. 37:20 And this is crucial, Shelley, this is crucial. 37:22 In Luke 3:38, I remember... 37:24 Yes. 37:25 Luke 3:38 calls Adam son of God. 37:27 That's right. 37:29 So you have this genealogy where it says so and so 37:31 is the son of so and so 37:32 and each one is the son of some human father, 37:36 and it goes all the way back, you know, Jesse or David, 37:39 the son of Jesse and Jesse, the son of Obed, 37:42 and it goes back, back, back, back, back, 37:44 and then it says Adam the son of God. 37:47 Yes. 37:48 So this is the origin of the language "son of God." 37:53 Adam is the first "son of God" 37:57 in the primary sense that he is the one through whom 38:00 in a genealogical flow of history, 38:03 every other human being 38:05 is going to come forth from him. 38:07 So Jesus is the Son of God in the Adamic sense, 38:11 in the sense that Adam was the Son of God 38:14 because here's how the story flows. 38:16 Adam sins, the fall occurs in the Genesis account. 38:21 When Adam sins, when Eve sins, 38:25 God enters the picture 38:26 in Genesis chapter 3 and makes a promise. 38:29 It is sometimes called by Bible students, 38:31 by scholars the first gospel promise 38:34 and it's a prophecy promise. 38:37 It's in Genesis 3:15 and God is speaking to the serpent, 38:40 to Satan in the presence of Adam and Eve 38:43 who have now fallen, and God says to the serpent, 38:46 "I'm going to put enmity or hostility between you, 38:50 Satan, and the woman," 38:52 in this local, historical sense Eve, 38:55 but in the larger eschatological sense, 38:58 the Israel and the church down through history. 39:01 "I'm going to put enmity or hostility between you, 39:04 Satan, and the woman," 39:06 and here's what's going to happen. 39:08 "You will bruise his heel and he will crush your head." 39:14 So God now in Genesis 3:15 39:18 has said that there is going to be an offspring, 39:22 there's going to be a seed. 39:24 "I will put enmity between your seed 39:28 and her seed." 39:30 That is the sons and daughters that will come forth from Eve 39:36 and the church and the sons and daughters 39:38 that will be in a "spiritual sense" 39:40 the progeny of Satan and his way of thinking of God 39:44 and doing life. 39:46 So this is remarkable. 39:47 Here is a promise at the beginning of the story 39:50 of Scripture that we might call a promise of progeny. 39:55 "Adam and Eve, you're going to have a son at some point." 39:58 It's not specified when, 39:59 "but you're going to have a son 40:01 who will be the 'new' son of God." 40:06 He's going to come through human lineage, 40:08 and that's the point. 40:09 So when you come as... 40:11 And He'll be the second Adam is what Paul calls Him 40:13 in 1 Corinthians 15. 40:15 And also referring to Him as the second Adam in Romans 5. 40:20 Yeah. 40:21 You know, Adam is the first man in the representative sense 40:25 of the human race. 40:27 He is the "prototypical" man Adam. 40:30 Well, Jesus is the new prototypical man. 40:32 Yes. 40:34 Adam is the first image-bearer of God, 40:38 who will create or procreate in his image, 40:41 Jesus comes along and Paul teaches us that Jesus 40:45 is now the image of God reestablished... 40:48 Amen. 40:49 And out of him, there will be, what Paul says, many sons, 40:53 many offspring, who like Adam was supposed to do, 40:58 they will bear the image of God. 41:00 And so this is an incredible tapestry. 41:03 It's a story that's unfolding. 41:06 So again, backing up and then moving forward in Genesis, 41:09 Adam is the Son of God, 41:11 Luke informs us that Jesus is the Son of God 41:14 in the Adamic sense, okay? 41:16 So now we have a grounding for the language. 41:20 Well, then as the story of Genesis unfolds, 41:22 the plan of salvation unfolds 41:25 with this idea of primogenitor or firstborn son. 41:30 So God calls Abraham 41:33 because God is going to follow through 41:35 what the Genesis 3:15 promise, 41:38 He said I'm going to send a son, 41:41 an offspring through the human lineage 41:44 so He establishes a people. 41:46 He says, "Abraham, come out, 41:47 I'm starting a people with you." 41:50 That man Abraham is told by God, 41:55 "I'm going to give you a son and your son will be the one 41:59 through whom the promise will be carried forward 42:02 down through history." 42:03 So Abraham and Sarah get all antsy 42:06 because they're getting old, 42:07 and they take matters into their own hands 42:10 and they have Ishmael, 42:12 who is technically Abraham's first born. 42:17 But God says in so many words in the story, 42:19 that's not the son of promise. 42:23 And Hebrews 11 actually says that Abraham, 42:27 when Isaac comes along and he goes to sacrifice him, 42:31 it calls Isaac his only begotten son. 42:35 Yes. 42:36 There's the language, Shelley. 42:38 Yeah. 42:39 So we come in the New Testament, 42:40 we have to interpret the language 42:42 of the New Testament, 42:43 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God with the source 42:47 that it comes from. 42:48 So Abraham has Isaac 42:51 who is technically biologically the second born son, 42:54 but he is in fact the only or the firstborn son 42:58 in the covenantal sense. 43:00 'Cause it's a unique covenant. 43:01 Yeah. 43:02 And then Isaac and Rebekah, they have two sons, 43:06 they have twins Jacob and Esau, well, technically again, 43:11 Esau is the firstborn, Jacob is the second born, 43:15 but Jacob becomes the firstborn in the sense 43:19 that he's the one that will carry 43:21 the promise forward. 43:23 He's the covenantal son of God, the narrative son of God. 43:28 So you have the same idea. 43:30 Then as the story unfolds, this is so remarkable, Shelley. 43:35 Jacob has 12 sons, 43:37 his 12 sons then go into Egyptian bondage 43:41 and they reproduce and reproduce and reproduce, 43:44 and they become a nation. 43:46 They become a nation, Shelley. 43:49 Jacob's name was changed 43:51 in his wrestling match with the Lord, 43:54 and his name was changed from Jacob to Israel. 43:57 Israel now, this is amazing, becomes the corporate name, 44:03 a corporate name of all his sons 44:05 and all their progeny. 44:07 So the nation is now known by the name of their father 44:10 Jacob who is Israel. 44:12 That's how we get the nation of Israel. 44:14 Now this is amazing. 44:16 Israel is in Egyptian bondage, now check this out, 44:19 this is so incredible. 44:20 They're in Egyptian bondage, God calls Moses, and says, 44:24 "Moses, go to Pharaoh and tell Pharaoh, 44:28 'let my son go.'" 44:33 Singular. 44:34 Who is His son? 44:37 The son of God 44:39 now takes on the corporate identity of Israel. 44:42 This is how the story unfolds. 44:44 So now the son of God... 44:47 Actually, in the text, in Exodus, 44:51 God tells Pharaoh through Moses that, 44:54 "Israel is My begotten son." 44:58 The word "begotten" is used again. 45:00 So unique. 45:02 Yeah, yeah. It's unique. 45:03 Yeah, yeah. 45:04 So God has a chosen people, 45:06 they're called Israel and God says, 45:07 "I'm your Father," He says to them. 45:10 Unlike the other nations who have the fathers, 45:14 their fathers or their "gods" are Marduk and Moloch 45:18 and Ishtar and Dagan and all these other deities. 45:23 God says, "No, I'm your Father in a unique special sense 45:27 and you're My son." 45:28 And the idea, the concept is... 45:31 Shelley, this is amazing. 45:32 The concept, this is so beautiful, 45:35 is that Israel now is God's son in a corporate sense 45:41 as the conduit 45:44 through which the promise is going to be carried down 45:46 through the ages, down through the ages, 45:48 down through the ages, 45:50 through whom the Messiah will be born 45:53 as the Son of God. 45:57 So it's all connected. 45:59 Jesus is the Son of God 46:00 in the sense that Adam was the Son of God. 46:03 Jesus is the Son of God in the sense that Isaac 46:07 and Jacob and Israel was the son of God. 46:10 So when the Lord says, 46:12 "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. 46:15 Today I have begotten you." 46:18 Yeah. 46:19 It was... 46:21 Are you saying then, and I know you are, 46:22 but I'll try to put it in simple way, that God was... 46:27 Christ was always eternal and, you know, 46:31 Philippians 2:5 and 3:8, says, 46:34 "He did not consider equality with God to be robbery 46:39 because He was equal with God." 46:41 So He was always eternal, He was always God. 46:46 But when He became the covenant son, 46:51 the second Adam... 46:52 Man, I love your articulation. 46:54 This is... Yes. 46:55 Okay, so when He became the covenant son of promise... 46:58 Yeah. 47:00 That's when He actually became "the Son of God." 47:04 That's why Hebrew one specifies, 47:08 quoting from the Psalms, which is a messianic prophecy, 47:11 that's why the Book of Hebrews specifies, Shelley, 47:14 "Today I have begotten you." 47:16 Today, at the point of incarnation, 47:19 when you come through the womb of woman, 47:22 because that was the promise back in Genesis 3:15, 47:25 "To the serpent in the hearing of the woman, 47:28 I will put enmity between you, Satan, and the woman." 47:32 The woman then becomes the personified channel 47:35 through which Messiah is going to come 47:37 into the world through birth. 47:38 So when Jesus comes into the world, Shelley, 47:41 that's the reference point for the sonship of Christ. 47:47 So think about it like this. 47:49 Jesus preexisted His incarnation. 47:54 Yes. 47:56 He existed as, according to Scripture, God. 48:00 As very God. 48:01 "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God..." 48:02 "The Word was God." 48:04 He was God. 48:05 And as God, 48:07 a great condescension was entered into. 48:12 I mean, the God... I mean, Shelley, think of this. 48:14 The God of the universe loves you by name Shelly, 48:19 loves me by name Ty 48:20 and every member of the human race. 48:23 God literally loved you and me with such a passionate, 48:26 selfless, other-centered love 48:28 that God condescended to become a member of the human race. 48:33 Not temporarily but eternally He is, according to Hebrews, 48:37 our brother in the flesh forever. 48:41 Yes. 48:42 This is a sacrifice of monumental proportions. 48:46 You know, I'm going to tell you, 48:48 I have long said 48:50 that the greatest sacrifice of Christ was not on the cross, 48:54 don't misunderstand what I'm saying, 48:56 His greatest sacrifice was eternal God 48:59 became a human being, He took on our humanity. 49:02 And a lot of scholars 49:04 called that the humiliation of Christ to think that God 49:10 would become the second Adam, 49:11 become the covenant son of promise 49:15 so that He could die in our place. 49:17 It's amazing. But even though... 49:19 And we're just running out time, 49:21 but I just have to say this. 49:23 Even though I've been saying similar things 49:26 to what you're saying 49:28 without putting this all together, 49:30 when I read Ty's book, 49:32 it's called, "The Sonship of Christ. 49:35 Exploring the Covenant Identity of God and Man," 49:38 let me tell you, and this is available at Ty... 49:42 TyGibson.com. 49:45 Okay. 49:46 They can also get it at lightbearers.org. 49:48 Okay. But here... 49:49 They can also get it at Amazon, whatever that is. 49:52 All right. 49:53 But here is what it did for me 49:57 and I don't know that I can articulate this, 50:00 I'm anxious to read it again, 50:02 but I remember for weeks 50:05 after I first read this manuscript, 50:08 when I would pray, 50:11 I had a bigger picture of Jesus Christ. 50:15 Even though I've been saying, 50:17 okay, He came down, He took on me... 50:18 Yeah, yeah. 50:20 It was like, "You are eternal God." 50:23 I mean, at some point, you could say maybe in heaven, 50:26 son of God was a title reserved for Him, but he... 50:28 Absolutely. He wasn't. 50:30 The same, by the way, Shelley, 50:32 that He is referred to as the Lamb slain 50:35 from the foundation of the world. 50:36 Of course we know that He wasn't actually slain 50:39 until AD 31 when He was crucified, 50:41 but He was designated to the role 50:46 before He came to this world. 50:47 All right, so we're almost out of time, 50:49 so here's what I want to do. 50:51 We're going to put up the address roll 50:53 if you would like to contact Light Bearers, 50:56 but we're going to have I think your address... 51:00 Website, TyGibson.com to get this book. 51:06 "The Sonship of Christ" 51:08 Explains why Jesus Christ is called the Son of God. 51:12 To order your copy, 51:13 visit his website, LightBearers.org. 51:16 That's LightBearers.org. 51:19 If you would like to invite Ty to speak at your church, 51:22 just call him at (541)988-3333. 51:28 That's (541)988-3333. 51:33 You may also write to Light Bearers 51:35 37457 Jasper Lowell Road 51:39 in Jasper, Oregon 97438. |
Revised 2018-12-18