I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Removing pain
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Lord, let my word
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Heal a heart that hurts
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn,
and we welcome you once again
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to 3ABN Today, and I'm
going to tell you one thing.
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If you have ever wondered
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how Jesus can be God
and yet be the Son of God,
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you want to stay
tuned for this program.
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I'm so excited
about the program.
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I'm excited about
our special guest.
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And let me go ahead
and introduce him to you.
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Ty Gibson.
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Shelley, it's good to be here.
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Oh, Ty, so you are a pastor,
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you are the co-director
for Light Bearers ministry,
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you're an
author, you're a speaker,
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you travel around the world,
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but what I appreciate
about you is you are someone
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who focuses on our God
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as an intimate relational being,
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and He has taken you on
such an incredible study
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that you're going
to share with us today.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I'm on the edge
of my seat for that.
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I'm too. I'm too.
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And so this is just something
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that we want to
welcome you to this program.
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And we'll get to
know Ty a little bit more
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if he's new to you,
to the 3ABN audience,
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who have been with
us for a long time,
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everybody knows Ty Gibson.
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But we just want to
take this opportunity
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to thank you for your love
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and your prayers and
your financial support.
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Without you, this
mending broken people network
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could not do the mission
that God has called us to do.
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Let me open with a scripture,
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then we're
going to go to a song.
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I know you love music.
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I do.
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Hebrews 1:5 is a Scripture
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that is very
appropriate for this day.
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Ah, This is very...
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This is so good, actually.
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And in Hebrews 1:5, it says,
"For to which the angels..."
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The whole first
chapter of Hebrews is showing
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how Christ is
superior to the angels.
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And then it says, "For to which
of the angels did He ever say,
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'You are My Son,
today I have begotten You?
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I will be to Him...'"
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And again, "I will
be to Him a Father,
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and He shall be to Me a Son."
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Mm-hm.
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If you've ever
wondered about that Scripture,
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you're going to find out today.
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But before we do,
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we have someone I think
is fairly new to 3ABN, Ty.
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And his name is
Matt Throgmorton.
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He's from our local area,
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and he has such
a beautiful voice.
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And I believe he's a director
of worship at his church,
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but he's going to sing
for us a very familiar tune,
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but it's beautiful,
so listen to the words.
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"Jesus Loves Me."
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Jesus loves me!
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This I know
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For the Bible tells me so
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Little ones to Him belong
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They are weak, but He is strong
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Yes, Jesus loves me!
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The Bible tells me so
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Jesus loves me!
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He who died
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Heaven's gate to open wide
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He will wash away my sin
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Let His little child come in
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Yes, Jesus loves me!
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The Bible tells me so
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Jesus loves me!
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He will stay
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Close beside me all the way
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He's prepared a home for me
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And someday His face I'll see
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Yes, Jesus loves me!
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Oh, yes,
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Jesus loves me!
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The Bible
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Tells me so
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He loves me so
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Oh, I love that song.
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It was beautifully sung.
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Yeah, yeah.
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That's Matt Throgmorton
from Marion, Illinois.
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Thank you, Matt.
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Well, if you tuned
in just a moment late,
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I'm trying not to clap
my hands and act giddy,
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but I am so excited about
what we will discuss this hour,
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and our special
guest is Ty Gibson.
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Ty, thank you so much.
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It's good to be here.
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It really is.
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It's always good
to have you here.
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Let me... You know,
I failed to mention.
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Most people know you
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because you are on one
of our top five programs,
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Table Talk, where
the Light Bearers,
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you guys sit around and...
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David, Jeffrey,
James, and myself.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And it's
wonderful and we love that.
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I think the reason why
people love that program so much
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is because they feel like
they're engaged in the process
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of study and they are in fact,
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I mean, they can
sit there with us,
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open their Bibles.
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And it's not just
somebody preaching,
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they're being invited,
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you know, in a sense
to sit around the table
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and to discuss Scripture,
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and it really emphasizes
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the priesthood of all believers.
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And so I think
that's why people respond.
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Amen. Yeah.
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And I like that you all do it,
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it's something like
when we do family worship,
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it's unvarnished,
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you know, we're
just out there...
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Yeah, there's no script.
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Yeah, and I like that.
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Before we begin
on this teaching,
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just take a few minutes,
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give us the Reader's
Digest version of your history.
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Did you grow up in
a Christian family?
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Well, the fact is, Shelley,
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that I had no
Christian background whatsoever.
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The short
version is I was raised
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in a very secular home
in Southern California,
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and there was
just a lot of pain,
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a lot of suffering,
won't go into the details,
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but there was abuse,
there was drug addiction,
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the home was defined by pain.
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I mean, seriously, if somebody
would have said to me as a kid
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or even as a teenager,
you know, "Define life.
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What is life?"
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I would have just said pain.
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That was the definition
of life for me and, I think,
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everybody in that home.
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And there was no spiritual
orientation whatsoever.
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I had never heard
of the Ten Commandments
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for example,
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I had never heard
of the Book of Genesis,
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I had never opened
the Bible, I had heard,
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you know, the words of the Bible
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and I knew there was some book
that people considered to be,
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you know, from
God in some sense,
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but completely secular.
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But the thing for me
was that all of that pain
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and the concrete evil
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that I witnessed
growing up created in me
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a sense that there had to be
something by contrast to that.
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I mean, how would
I know this is wrong
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if there wasn't something right.
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That's good.
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You see what I'm saying?
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How would I know this is
ugly unless I could sense
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on some level, and I
was sensing on some level,
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that there must be
something beautiful
00:10:03.20\00:10:04.70
by contrast?
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So I had this deep hunger
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for beauty and justice and
just for things to be right
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in the world and
in my home as a kid,
00:10:12.51\00:10:17.05
and it was that
hunger inside of me
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that at the opportune time,
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when my mind was
just primed to see things
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in a different light
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through a series
of providential events
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and two ladies, my
mom and my girlfriend,
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Jesus was introduced to me
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in a very
practical, powerful way.
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And I realized for
the first time in my life,
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I was 18 years old, I realized
that not only does God exist,
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which was
revolutionary enough for me,
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just to accept that
there is such a thing as God,
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that was a big step,
but the real epiphany
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was not only does God exist
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but God is love
in the most extreme
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and beautiful sense that
the human mind can imagine.
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So everything that I longed
for of justice and beauty and...
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Harmony and peace.
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For things to be right wasn't
just a concept or an idea,
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it was embodied in a person...
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Amen.
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In a personal God.
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And then I crossed the line
and opened myself up and said,
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"Okay, I believe You exist.
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I believe that you
are intrinsically good."
00:11:28.72\00:11:31.82
So I just embarked on a journey.
00:11:31.85\00:11:34.16
I said, "Teach me whatever it is
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that I need to know about You."
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And so I've spent
my entire adult life
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basically being guided
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through a process of getting
to know the personhood of God,
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the way God
thinks, the way God feels,
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the way God behaves,
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the relational
patterns that God moves through.
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That's what I refer to
as the character of God.
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Character of God is shorthand
for thoughts, feelings,
00:12:00.45\00:12:05.19
and behavior patterns of God...
00:12:05.22\00:12:06.62
Yes, yes.
00:12:06.65\00:12:07.99
Who is God.
00:12:08.02\00:12:09.36
And I've spent
my whole adult life
00:12:09.39\00:12:11.13
getting to know God
00:12:11.16\00:12:12.69
from that
particular perspective.
00:12:12.73\00:12:15.63
And shortly
thereafter, after my, you know,
00:12:15.66\00:12:20.04
what we sometimes
refer to as "conversion,"
00:12:20.07\00:12:23.17
my absolute
radical transformation
00:12:23.20\00:12:26.57
from one kind of person
00:12:26.61\00:12:28.28
to another kind
of person overnight,
00:12:28.31\00:12:31.38
began sharing my
faith with friends
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and just people I knew,
00:12:34.95\00:12:37.39
and that launched
Light Bearers Ministry.
00:12:37.42\00:12:39.42
And I actually have a history
at that point that intersects
00:12:39.45\00:12:41.49
with 3ABN
00:12:41.52\00:12:42.86
because the ministry
that my wife Sue and I,
00:12:42.89\00:12:45.96
as teenagers, and our
friend James Rafferty,
00:12:45.99\00:12:52.07
the ministry that we
launched back then was launching
00:12:52.10\00:12:54.40
at the same time
that 3ABN was launching.
00:12:54.44\00:12:59.44
Danny had a vision for 3ABN
00:12:59.47\00:13:04.68
that was formed in
him by the Holy Spirit,
00:13:04.71\00:13:07.98
and we were some
of the first people
00:13:08.02\00:13:09.45
who came and
started doing programs.
00:13:09.48\00:13:10.82
We were ridiculously young.
00:13:10.89\00:13:14.39
I had a big giant beard
and, I mean, we were kids.
00:13:14.42\00:13:19.33
I had a beard, by the way,
00:13:19.36\00:13:20.70
just to prove
that I was old enough
00:13:20.73\00:13:23.16
to be on the
program and talk, you know?
00:13:23.20\00:13:25.93
And then we got
mail from 3ABN viewers,
00:13:25.97\00:13:28.17
"Shave that thing off!
00:13:28.20\00:13:29.54
You look like the
criminal element."
00:13:29.57\00:13:31.04
You know, stuff like that.
00:13:31.07\00:13:32.54
So then I shaved it.
00:13:32.57\00:13:33.91
I've seen some of the pictures.
00:13:33.98\00:13:35.51
So anyways, there's a
history that intersects with,
00:13:35.54\00:13:38.88
you know, 3ABN's beginnings
00:13:38.91\00:13:40.95
and the
beginnings of the ministry
00:13:40.98\00:13:42.45
that I represent
and have represented
00:13:42.48\00:13:44.02
my whole adult life pretty much,
00:13:44.09\00:13:45.92
Light Bearers, and so yeah.
00:13:45.95\00:13:47.66
And basically, what does...
00:13:47.69\00:13:49.02
I know that you and
James and others, David,
00:13:49.06\00:13:52.66
you have a training
school to train people for...
00:13:52.69\00:13:55.53
Yeah, we run a
discipleship program
00:13:55.56\00:13:58.00
that people can actually come
00:13:58.03\00:13:59.37
and live with us, I mean,
not right in our, you know,
00:13:59.40\00:14:02.27
living room and bedrooms,
00:14:02.30\00:14:04.04
we live in the same
area and we have a dorm,
00:14:04.11\00:14:06.27
and people come and they
live with us for three months.
00:14:06.31\00:14:09.74
And we do it twice a year
00:14:09.78\00:14:11.41
and we move
through the whole Bible,
00:14:11.45\00:14:13.42
Genesis to
Revelation in three months...
00:14:13.45\00:14:15.05
Oh, wow.
00:14:15.08\00:14:16.42
And we do community outreach
00:14:16.45\00:14:17.79
and evangelism in the community.
00:14:17.82\00:14:19.79
It's a discipleship program,
00:14:19.82\00:14:21.59
and it's absolutely transforming
00:14:21.62\00:14:24.13
the people who come.
00:14:24.16\00:14:25.49
And it happens
every year, twice a year,
00:14:25.53\00:14:27.63
once in the US
and once in Australia.
00:14:27.66\00:14:30.67
And we travel back
and forth and teach it,
00:14:30.70\00:14:33.34
that's called ARISE,
00:14:33.37\00:14:35.20
that's our discipleship program.
00:14:35.24\00:14:37.01
And then also in
addition to running
00:14:37.04\00:14:40.61
a discipleship program,
00:14:40.68\00:14:42.34
Light Bearers also is
a publishing ministry.
00:14:42.38\00:14:45.21
We publish
evangelistic literature
00:14:45.25\00:14:46.95
in like 40 languages.
00:14:47.02\00:14:49.42
And it's shipped free of charge
all over the world as a gift
00:14:49.45\00:14:53.05
to the church for evangelism.
00:14:53.09\00:14:57.03
And then we do a
lot of media production
00:14:57.06\00:15:00.00
as 3ABN does and our programs
are actually aired on 3ABN,
00:15:00.03\00:15:03.87
and we do Table
Talk and other programs.
00:15:03.90\00:15:06.50
So that's what it is, and
then I do a lot of writing.
00:15:06.53\00:15:09.50
I'm actually more of a
writer than anything else.
00:15:09.54\00:15:12.74
I preach and I teach,
00:15:12.77\00:15:15.61
but that ARISE is out
of my passion for research
00:15:15.64\00:15:19.91
and study and writing.
00:15:19.95\00:15:21.28
You know, I just want you...
00:15:21.32\00:15:22.65
Because I'm afraid
I'll forget, you...
00:15:22.68\00:15:26.69
The thing I appreciate
most about your ministry
00:15:26.76\00:15:30.33
is you are
always pointing to God
00:15:30.36\00:15:32.39
as an intimate
and relational being.
00:15:32.43\00:15:36.10
But you have
something that you say
00:15:36.13\00:15:39.10
about the three beings,
00:15:39.13\00:15:43.94
the three heavenly beings
00:15:44.01\00:15:45.81
that that is the
perfect number for love.
00:15:45.84\00:15:48.21
Explain why. Yeah.
00:15:48.24\00:15:49.74
Well, if you think about it,
00:15:49.78\00:15:51.15
I do this exercise every year
00:15:51.18\00:15:53.28
with our students
in the ARISE program.
00:15:53.31\00:15:56.58
One of the first
things that I lead them
00:15:56.62\00:15:57.99
through is kind of a
mental theological experiment,
00:15:58.02\00:16:01.86
and without giving
them any clues or anything,
00:16:01.89\00:16:04.43
I say, you know,
"Here's a riddle for you.
00:16:04.46\00:16:09.13
Break up into
groups of two or three
00:16:09.16\00:16:10.77
and we'll walk to
the river and back.
00:16:10.80\00:16:13.37
But while you're walking,
00:16:13.44\00:16:14.77
I want you to crack this riddle.
00:16:14.80\00:16:16.57
What is the minimal
numeric value of love?"
00:16:16.60\00:16:20.28
And they all kind
of cross their eyes
00:16:20.31\00:16:21.74
and look at each other
00:16:21.78\00:16:23.11
like minimum
numeric value of love,
00:16:23.14\00:16:25.11
what does that mean?
00:16:25.15\00:16:26.48
I say, "That's what
you need to figure out.
00:16:26.51\00:16:27.92
What is the minimum
number of individuals
00:16:27.95\00:16:30.89
you would have to have in order
for perfect love to exist?"
00:16:30.92\00:16:33.56
And they begin walking.
00:16:33.59\00:16:34.92
We get to the river and I say,
"Okay, what did you discover?"
00:16:34.96\00:16:37.63
And, Shelley, it's amazing.
00:16:37.66\00:16:39.16
Every year,
00:16:39.19\00:16:40.53
it doesn't matter who the
group of human beings are,
00:16:40.60\00:16:43.40
everybody comes pretty
much to the same conclusion.
00:16:43.47\00:16:46.17
They banter a
little bit, they say, well,
00:16:46.20\00:16:47.87
it can't be one
because love can't exist
00:16:47.90\00:16:50.71
with one individual.
00:16:50.74\00:16:52.07
If you lock yourself
in the bathroom for life,
00:16:52.11\00:16:54.61
you'll never
experience any love.
00:16:54.64\00:16:55.98
You got to come
out of the bathroom
00:16:56.01\00:16:57.35
and have some relationships
00:16:57.38\00:16:58.71
because love by its
very nature is relational.
00:16:58.75\00:17:01.05
So then they
say it can't be one,
00:17:01.08\00:17:03.59
one person
can't experience love,
00:17:03.62\00:17:05.19
you have to have
at least some other.
00:17:05.22\00:17:06.86
So maybe it's two,
00:17:06.89\00:17:08.22
so they banter
about two for a while
00:17:08.26\00:17:09.59
and they say okay, so two.
00:17:09.62\00:17:11.06
"You'd have to have
at least two in order
00:17:11.09\00:17:12.53
for love to exist."
00:17:12.56\00:17:13.90
I'm like yeah, okay, so...
00:17:13.93\00:17:15.80
And then they say,
but if there's just two,
00:17:15.83\00:17:19.97
then you have an exclusive
focus each one on the other.
00:17:20.04\00:17:26.47
But if you
enter into a situation
00:17:26.51\00:17:28.71
where a third
party enters the picture,
00:17:28.74\00:17:31.11
you have to
psychologically adjust to being
00:17:31.15\00:17:35.68
the focus of attention
and then to defer attention.
00:17:35.72\00:17:40.66
You're obligated
to become selfless.
00:17:40.69\00:17:43.26
You have to actually be
content for the one you love
00:17:43.29\00:17:47.60
to actually also love
your other friend as well.
00:17:47.63\00:17:50.77
This happens in
high school all the time.
00:17:50.80\00:17:52.30
Absolutely.
00:17:52.33\00:17:53.67
Two people are
exclusive friends, you know,
00:17:53.74\00:17:55.07
you're best friends and then
someone else enters the picture
00:17:55.10\00:17:58.14
and you become threatened
00:17:58.17\00:17:59.51
or you incorporate
and you become a more rich
00:17:59.54\00:18:03.98
relational dynamic
00:18:04.05\00:18:05.61
because now not
only does Shelley love Ty
00:18:05.65\00:18:08.82
and we're friends but
you have somebody else,
00:18:08.85\00:18:11.32
you have JD, and I love
JD too, and you love JD.
00:18:11.35\00:18:15.09
And, you know, it's
an incredible thing.
00:18:15.12\00:18:18.13
It's a beautiful
relational dynamic
00:18:18.16\00:18:20.30
on the friendship level.
00:18:20.33\00:18:21.80
A marriage needs
to be exclusive...
00:18:21.83\00:18:23.57
Yeah.
00:18:23.60\00:18:24.93
With just two.
00:18:24.97\00:18:26.30
But even there, think about it,
00:18:26.33\00:18:27.94
you have two and the way
God created the situation
00:18:27.97\00:18:30.11
to operate is two have
the procreative ability
00:18:30.14\00:18:32.84
to create a third party.
00:18:32.87\00:18:34.71
And anybody who's ever,
00:18:34.74\00:18:36.08
you know, had
children knows that
00:18:36.11\00:18:38.08
once you have a child,
00:18:38.11\00:18:39.71
you know, you
need to be selfless
00:18:39.75\00:18:41.85
because you don't have
the exclusive attention
00:18:41.88\00:18:44.29
anymore of your beloved.
00:18:44.32\00:18:46.86
You need to defer attention.
00:18:46.89\00:18:48.99
And so think
about that for a minute.
00:18:49.02\00:18:50.99
If God is a
relational unit of three,
00:18:51.03\00:18:54.73
Father, Son, and Spirit,
00:18:54.76\00:18:57.10
that epitomizes what
perfect love looks like
00:18:57.17\00:19:01.90
because the Father...
00:19:01.94\00:19:03.27
Perfect love being
unselfish and others-centered.
00:19:03.30\00:19:05.54
Others-centered. Yeah.
00:19:05.57\00:19:07.21
So each can focus on the other
and be focused on by the other
00:19:07.28\00:19:12.58
and each also has to defer
attention to a third party.
00:19:12.61\00:19:17.29
So it's this beautiful
reciprocation, it's this...
00:19:17.32\00:19:20.66
Out and then to the
other and then and in,
00:19:20.69\00:19:22.79
it's beautiful.
00:19:22.82\00:19:24.16
It's just... It is.
00:19:24.23\00:19:25.56
So really that bears
testimony on just a pure
00:19:25.59\00:19:28.40
mathematical level,
just the geometry of love.
00:19:28.43\00:19:31.63
Amen. Yeah.
00:19:31.67\00:19:33.00
The geometry of love
00:19:33.03\00:19:34.37
bears testimony to
the veracity of Scripture.
00:19:34.40\00:19:38.04
Scripture is the only story
told in all of human history
00:19:38.07\00:19:43.55
that portrays God as
a relational dynamic.
00:19:43.58\00:19:46.25
Every other
philosophy and religion
00:19:46.28\00:19:48.85
and myth about "deity"
00:19:48.88\00:19:52.15
is focusing on the
solitude of a Supreme One
00:19:52.19\00:19:58.46
that exercises
power over all others,
00:19:58.49\00:20:01.40
whereas the Bible
comes along and says,
00:20:01.43\00:20:03.23
"You have a Supreme Three
00:20:03.26\00:20:05.50
who are each
focused on the other.
00:20:05.53\00:20:07.37
Each one constantly vanishing
in their focus on the other."
00:20:07.44\00:20:12.21
But when we say
in extreme three,
00:20:12.24\00:20:14.58
we believe that
three divine persons
00:20:14.61\00:20:17.88
equal one divine being.
00:20:17.91\00:20:19.25
Yeah, that's
right, that's right.
00:20:19.28\00:20:20.72
And because they're
of the same essence...
00:20:20.75\00:20:25.42
So it's not polytheism...
00:20:25.45\00:20:27.16
Right.
00:20:27.19\00:20:28.52
That is we don't
believe that the Bible teaches
00:20:28.56\00:20:30.23
that there are many gods,
00:20:30.26\00:20:32.06
we believe the Bible
teaches as the Shema of Israel,
00:20:32.09\00:20:36.00
the Lord our
God, the Lord is one.
00:20:36.03\00:20:37.60
One. One.
00:20:37.63\00:20:39.10
Well, the word one there
00:20:39.13\00:20:40.64
is very
interesting in the Hebrew.
00:20:40.67\00:20:42.57
It means a relational unit,
00:20:42.60\00:20:44.61
it doesn't mean
a solitary thing.
00:20:44.64\00:20:46.68
It's a compound unity.
00:20:46.71\00:20:48.04
Yeah, it's a compound unity.
00:20:48.08\00:20:49.41
That's right. Yes.
00:20:49.44\00:20:50.78
So it's a beautiful...
00:20:50.81\00:20:52.15
Again, God is one,
00:20:52.18\00:20:53.62
and Jesus
picked up this language
00:20:53.65\00:20:55.25
in the New
Testament when He said,
00:20:55.28\00:20:57.39
"My Father and I are one."
00:20:57.42\00:20:59.72
So there's two, but there's one.
00:20:59.75\00:21:01.29
It shows up in the
marriage relationship
00:21:01.32\00:21:02.96
of Genesis where it says
of, "Adam and Eve, the two,
00:21:02.99\00:21:06.63
the man and woman
shall become one."
00:21:06.70\00:21:09.43
One there doesn't mean
a single solitary self,
00:21:09.46\00:21:13.00
it means more than one
00:21:13.03\00:21:15.04
who are one in character,
00:21:15.07\00:21:16.40
in essence, in purpose, in love.
00:21:16.44\00:21:18.01
Amen. Yeah.
00:21:18.04\00:21:19.37
Well said.
00:21:19.41\00:21:20.78
Okay, what I would
like to do right now,
00:21:20.81\00:21:23.08
Ty has a little trailer.
00:21:23.11\00:21:25.38
He has written a book,
and this book is called...
00:21:25.41\00:21:29.72
I believe it's,
"The Sonship of Christ."
00:21:29.75\00:21:33.25
And the... Subtitle.
00:21:33.29\00:21:35.09
Subtitle is, "Exploring
00:21:35.12\00:21:37.06
the Covenant
Identity of God and Man."
00:21:37.13\00:21:40.43
That's a good subtitle, I hope.
00:21:40.50\00:21:42.46
It's a long one.
00:21:42.50\00:21:44.37
But this book...
00:21:44.40\00:21:46.37
What happened right before
a camp meeting, Ty sent me,
00:21:46.40\00:21:51.67
one day, a draft of
his manuscript and he said,
00:21:51.71\00:21:56.41
"Could you read this?
00:21:56.44\00:21:57.78
It'll only take you five hours."
00:21:57.81\00:21:59.15
Well, I had two days to
write a camp meeting sermon
00:21:59.18\00:22:01.35
and I'm thinking,
"I don't have time
00:22:01.38\00:22:02.72
to read this."
00:22:02.75\00:22:04.09
But out of
curiosity, I opened it up,
00:22:04.12\00:22:06.39
and I began reading
00:22:06.42\00:22:07.76
and I didn't
stop till I finished.
00:22:07.79\00:22:10.96
What the Lord did
00:22:10.99\00:22:13.26
was take Ty on a Bible study
00:22:13.29\00:22:18.80
in which he unveiled the
truth that's in plain sight.
00:22:18.83\00:22:23.24
And once you see
it, you can't unsee it.
00:22:23.27\00:22:26.51
And Ty has written a book
that I appreciate so much,
00:22:26.54\00:22:30.88
first your scholarship
but your love for God,
00:22:30.95\00:22:34.98
but I also
appreciate your humility in that
00:22:35.02\00:22:37.92
before you published this book,
00:22:37.95\00:22:40.46
you sent it to seminarians...
00:22:40.49\00:22:42.52
A lot of people. Yeah.
00:22:42.56\00:22:43.93
And had a lot of
people review this.
00:22:43.96\00:22:45.33
A lot of... Yeah.
00:22:45.36\00:22:46.70
Theology professors, yeah.
00:22:46.73\00:22:48.06
A lot of peer review
to make sure that every...
00:22:48.10\00:22:51.30
And everybody had the
same reaction I've had.
00:22:51.33\00:22:54.27
Yeah.
00:22:54.30\00:22:55.64
I mean, I
honestly believe this book
00:22:55.67\00:22:57.61
will go down in the
annals of church history.
00:22:57.64\00:23:01.41
I believe this book will change
Christianity because it answers
00:23:01.44\00:23:06.18
a question that so many
people have and that question is
00:23:06.21\00:23:11.12
if Christ is God,
00:23:11.15\00:23:13.59
how can He also
be of Son of God?
00:23:13.66\00:23:15.49
If He's the Son of
God, how can He be God?
00:23:15.52\00:23:18.33
And so we'd like to run
the book trailer just now
00:23:18.36\00:23:21.63
and then we're
going to come back
00:23:21.66\00:23:23.50
and have Ty
discuss how God led him
00:23:23.57\00:23:27.07
on this incredible study.
00:23:27.14\00:23:29.00
If you pan out from the
world and deliberately observe
00:23:34.01\00:23:37.75
what's going on,
00:23:37.78\00:23:39.11
it becomes immediately evident
that everything is relational.
00:23:39.15\00:23:42.65
Nothing occurs in isolation.
00:23:42.68\00:23:44.82
Life is like one
big ripple effect
00:23:44.85\00:23:47.16
composed of a lot of
smaller ripple effects.
00:23:47.19\00:23:51.16
Children seek out
relationships with one another
00:23:51.19\00:23:53.83
and become friends for life.
00:23:53.90\00:23:55.76
Men and women enter
into intimate relationships
00:23:55.80\00:23:59.23
that are just the pinnacle
of what it means to be human
00:23:59.27\00:24:03.44
and what it means to
experience the beauty of life.
00:24:03.51\00:24:07.08
And we all know that
the most excruciating thing
00:24:07.11\00:24:09.38
that a human being
can ever go through
00:24:09.41\00:24:11.91
is to endure a
broken relationship.
00:24:11.95\00:24:14.65
Well, the fact is we
are relational creatures.
00:24:14.68\00:24:18.82
And in my recent journey,
00:24:18.85\00:24:21.42
I've discovered
that this is traceable
00:24:21.46\00:24:24.43
to the fact that
God is relationship.
00:24:24.46\00:24:28.20
Down through church history,
a big question has been,
00:24:28.23\00:24:32.90
who is God, what is God like.
00:24:32.93\00:24:35.20
The doctrine of the
Trinity has emerged,
00:24:35.24\00:24:37.97
and some people have
pushed back on the doctrine
00:24:38.01\00:24:40.31
of the Trinity and have
said that it's a pagan doctrine.
00:24:40.38\00:24:45.15
Others have said that
Jesus is the Son of God
00:24:45.18\00:24:47.65
and God is the Father,
00:24:47.68\00:24:49.22
so there must be
some kind of relationship
00:24:49.25\00:24:52.12
between them in which
the Father existed first
00:24:52.15\00:24:54.89
and then the Son
emerged from the Father.
00:24:54.92\00:24:57.79
So what does the
Bible actually mean
00:24:57.83\00:25:00.60
when it refers to
Jesus on the one hand as God
00:25:00.63\00:25:04.00
and, on the other
hand, the Son of God?
00:25:04.07\00:25:06.00
It seems like there's a tension
between these two identities.
00:25:06.03\00:25:10.04
Well, I've decided that
00:25:10.11\00:25:12.54
this is a subject that is worthy
00:25:12.57\00:25:14.44
not only of my study
00:25:14.48\00:25:15.81
but something I want to
share with as many people
00:25:15.84\00:25:17.68
as possible out of my own
00:25:17.71\00:25:20.42
personal journey on the subject.
00:25:20.45\00:25:22.42
So I've written a book
00:25:22.45\00:25:23.79
that I'm really
excited about called "
00:25:23.82\00:25:25.59
The Sonship of Christ."
00:25:25.62\00:25:27.36
The subtitle is,
00:25:27.39\00:25:29.26
"An Exploration of the
Covenant Identity of God
00:25:29.29\00:25:32.99
and Man."
00:25:33.03\00:25:34.36
It's been an
exciting journey discovering
00:25:34.40\00:25:36.40
what Scripture means
00:25:36.43\00:25:37.77
when it refers to
Jesus as the Son of God
00:25:37.80\00:25:40.77
on the one hand,
on the other hand,
00:25:40.84\00:25:42.24
that He is in fact God.
00:25:42.27\00:25:44.51
I've looked into whether
the Trinity is a true or false
00:25:44.54\00:25:47.38
doctrine, and
incredible insights
00:25:47.41\00:25:49.78
have emerged
regarding that as well.
00:25:49.81\00:25:52.08
The Sonship of Christ is
the book that is the result
00:25:52.11\00:25:54.75
of this study,
00:25:54.78\00:25:56.12
and it's available now
and I'm looking forward
00:25:56.15\00:25:58.55
to sharing it with you.
00:25:58.59\00:25:59.92
I think you're going to be
immensely blessed by the book.
00:25:59.95\00:26:01.96
You know, Ty and I
are just sitting here
00:26:06.09\00:26:08.30
talking as this was running,
00:26:08.33\00:26:09.66
and he told me
he did this series
00:26:09.70\00:26:13.20
on this book at the
University of Berkeley,
00:26:13.23\00:26:16.34
on a secular university.
00:26:16.37\00:26:18.31
What was...
00:26:18.34\00:26:19.67
It was exciting. It
was exciting just to...
00:26:19.71\00:26:21.04
What was reaction?
00:26:21.08\00:26:22.41
The students were...
00:26:22.44\00:26:23.78
I mean, they
packed the room out,
00:26:23.85\00:26:26.51
and they were just eager,
00:26:26.55\00:26:28.08
nobody was offended even though
00:26:28.12\00:26:29.75
it's a very secular environment,
00:26:29.78\00:26:31.39
and Christianity isn't,
00:26:31.42\00:26:32.99
you know, popular you
could say on campus there,
00:26:33.02\00:26:35.56
but they packed the room out.
00:26:35.59\00:26:36.96
And they were completely
tuned in to explore the idea
00:26:37.03\00:26:41.93
that God is a
hyper relational being.
00:26:41.96\00:26:45.30
To them, that was
beautiful, so yeah.
00:26:45.33\00:26:47.87
It is beautiful.
00:26:47.90\00:26:49.24
Okay, so tell us
how God prompted you
00:26:49.27\00:26:54.41
to begin this study
and then kind of give us...
00:26:54.44\00:26:57.15
I've been...
00:26:57.18\00:26:58.51
I keep teasing everybody
telling that you're going
00:26:58.55\00:27:00.52
to tell us.
00:27:00.55\00:27:01.88
Yeah, well, first of all,
00:27:01.92\00:27:04.29
on the level of what prompted me
00:27:04.32\00:27:06.69
is as you know I
do a lot of travelling
00:27:06.76\00:27:09.06
and teaching and preaching,
00:27:09.09\00:27:10.63
and about every
other place I would go,
00:27:10.66\00:27:13.93
people were
asking the same question
00:27:14.00\00:27:15.70
because this is
a pretty hot topic
00:27:15.73\00:27:17.67
right now in a lot of circles.
00:27:17.70\00:27:20.14
People were asking the question,
00:27:20.17\00:27:21.50
so is Jesus God
in the same sense
00:27:21.54\00:27:25.54
that the Father is God?
00:27:25.57\00:27:27.18
Did Jesus have a
point of beginning?
00:27:27.21\00:27:29.44
Did He begin to
exist some time in,
00:27:29.48\00:27:33.21
you know, the ancient past
00:27:33.25\00:27:34.62
or did He always exist
concurrent with the Father?
00:27:34.65\00:27:38.92
And then the second
question connected to that is,
00:27:38.95\00:27:43.19
is the Holy Spirit
00:27:43.22\00:27:46.49
a personal being
distinct from the Father
00:27:46.53\00:27:50.07
and the Son or
is the Holy Spirit
00:27:50.10\00:27:53.37
a manifestation of
the Father or the Son?
00:27:53.44\00:27:57.67
Just an emanating
virtue. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:57.71\00:27:59.54
So the real question is,
00:27:59.57\00:28:01.04
is the trinity a valid doctrine,
00:28:01.08\00:28:04.45
a valid theological
concept or is it not?
00:28:04.48\00:28:08.48
So if you really
distill it down, Shelley,
00:28:08.52\00:28:11.75
the question
that's being asked is,
00:28:11.79\00:28:14.16
at the most basic level is this,
00:28:14.19\00:28:16.49
when we think of God,
00:28:16.52\00:28:18.49
is God
ultimately to be conceived
00:28:18.53\00:28:20.70
of as a solitary self
or a relational dynamic?
00:28:20.73\00:28:26.33
If you get at the
heart of the question,
00:28:26.37\00:28:28.40
that's really what the issue is.
00:28:28.44\00:28:31.27
The whole denominations
00:28:31.31\00:28:32.97
that have formed
around rejecting the Trinity
00:28:33.01\00:28:36.54
and adopting the idea that
God is a rigid singularity,
00:28:36.58\00:28:38.51
a solitary self, God the Father,
00:28:41.15\00:28:43.49
and then out of God the
Father came the Son Jesus
00:28:43.52\00:28:47.46
at some point, we don't
know the date of course,
00:28:47.49\00:28:49.39
but Jesus
emerged from the Father,
00:28:49.42\00:28:51.76
and the Holy Spirit
is not a person at all
00:28:51.79\00:28:53.40
but the essence
or energy or power
00:28:53.43\00:28:56.26
that is
emerging from the Father.
00:28:56.30\00:28:58.60
So...
00:28:58.63\00:28:59.97
And that's what some say, okay?
00:29:00.04\00:29:01.37
Somebody has just tuned
in, we're not saying that,
00:29:01.40\00:29:03.04
but that is what
some believe. Yeah, yeah.
00:29:03.07\00:29:04.44
So that's a doctrine that
has formed whole denominations,
00:29:04.47\00:29:06.78
Jehovah's
Witnesses, Mormons, Unitarians,
00:29:06.81\00:29:09.91
Oneness Pentecostals,
00:29:09.94\00:29:11.41
certain branches of
the Church of Christ,
00:29:11.45\00:29:13.21
Church of God Seventh-day
until the death of its founder
00:29:13.25\00:29:16.45
and then they converted
to the Trinitarian doctrine,
00:29:16.48\00:29:19.72
but...
00:29:19.75\00:29:21.12
And it goes back
further than that
00:29:21.16\00:29:23.26
because this
was the very subject
00:29:23.29\00:29:25.43
over which the first official
00:29:25.46\00:29:27.93
historical church
council was convened,
00:29:27.96\00:29:32.03
the Council of Nicea,
00:29:32.07\00:29:34.74
and the question
was this very question,
00:29:34.77\00:29:37.51
"Who is Jesus,
00:29:37.54\00:29:38.87
why is He called the Son
of God in the New Testament,
00:29:38.91\00:29:40.98
and does that mean he
had a point of beginning?"
00:29:41.01\00:29:42.88
And so that's what
prompted the study.
00:29:42.91\00:29:44.65
I was...
00:29:44.68\00:29:46.01
Just people were
asking this question...
00:29:46.05\00:29:47.52
Actually, in a grocery
store, somebody said, "Hey,
00:29:47.55\00:29:50.29
I see you on television.
00:29:50.32\00:29:51.79
Are you that guy?"
And I said, "Yeah."
00:29:51.82\00:29:53.19
We started talking.
00:29:53.22\00:29:55.22
"Hey..."
00:29:55.26\00:29:56.59
And that was the
question they had right there
00:29:56.62\00:29:57.96
in the salsa aisle.
00:29:57.99\00:29:59.33
They wanted to know
00:29:59.36\00:30:01.03
who is Jesus
really and how does...
00:30:01.06\00:30:03.60
So that's how I was prompted
00:30:03.67\00:30:06.43
to begin writing responses
to people who were asking,
00:30:06.47\00:30:09.80
but then the
theological prompting
00:30:09.84\00:30:12.61
came from viewing Scripture
00:30:12.64\00:30:16.34
through the most helpful lens,
00:30:16.38\00:30:19.48
the most helpful theological
lens that I'm aware of,
00:30:19.51\00:30:22.55
and that is to view
Scripture as a whole,
00:30:22.58\00:30:25.69
to view
Scripture as a narrative,
00:30:25.72\00:30:27.29
to use Scripture as a unit,
00:30:27.36\00:30:30.03
as something being said
from Genesis to Revelation
00:30:30.06\00:30:32.73
rather than the
individual parts.
00:30:32.76\00:30:35.83
So it's the progressive
00:30:35.86\00:30:38.27
self-revelation of
God in a narrative.
00:30:38.30\00:30:41.24
Yeah, so to the degree, Shelley,
00:30:41.27\00:30:42.64
that I am literate in
the Old Testament story,
00:30:42.67\00:30:48.01
the New Testament
will make sense to me.
00:30:48.04\00:30:50.35
Amen. Yeah.
00:30:50.38\00:30:51.88
So somebody asked me
00:30:51.91\00:30:53.28
not long ago,
"Hey, if you could..."
00:30:53.31\00:30:54.65
I don't know where
this question came from.
00:30:54.68\00:30:56.02
"Hey, if you could pull one
practical joke on the church,
00:30:56.05\00:30:59.15
what would it be like,
00:30:59.19\00:31:01.02
you know, snap your
fingers and do something?"
00:31:01.06\00:31:02.72
I said immediately,
00:31:02.76\00:31:04.53
I would remove all
the chapter divisions
00:31:04.56\00:31:06.80
and verse
divisions in Scripture,
00:31:06.83\00:31:08.93
and I'll put them back
later on because it is helpful,
00:31:08.96\00:31:11.20
you know, to be able
to find where you're at.
00:31:11.23\00:31:13.20
But if we look at
Scripture as verses,
00:31:13.23\00:31:17.34
we're looking at
the bark on the trees.
00:31:17.41\00:31:19.24
There you go. Yeah.
00:31:19.27\00:31:20.61
But if we pan out to
see the whole forest,
00:31:20.68\00:31:23.48
then we're looking at
the narrative of Scripture.
00:31:23.55\00:31:26.08
So here's basically
the problem, let's set...
00:31:26.11\00:31:28.78
And by the way, we
should insert here that
00:31:28.82\00:31:31.39
it wasn't written
with chapter and verse.
00:31:31.42\00:31:33.89
That's something... It wasn't.
00:31:33.96\00:31:35.29
This was added like
a few 100 years ago.
00:31:35.32\00:31:36.86
Yeah.
00:31:36.93\00:31:38.26
So we need to study
the Bible, the whole thing,
00:31:38.29\00:31:43.87
read Scripture as a
whole, and if we do,
00:31:43.90\00:31:46.94
we will become
aware of its own intent.
00:31:46.97\00:31:51.41
Amen.
00:31:51.44\00:31:52.77
You know, what does the Bible
mean when it says what it says?
00:31:52.81\00:31:55.21
So when you come to
the New Testament, okay?
00:31:55.24\00:31:56.78
Let's set up the problem here.
00:31:56.85\00:31:58.55
The problem, the
theological problem
00:31:58.58\00:32:00.52
that we're
addressing in this discussion
00:32:00.55\00:32:02.48
and that I'm
addressing in the book,
00:32:02.52\00:32:03.89
The Sonship of Christ,
00:32:03.92\00:32:05.45
When you come to
the New Testament,
00:32:05.49\00:32:07.46
you read where Jesus is called,
00:32:07.49\00:32:10.06
the Firstborn Son of God
in a few different Scriptures,
00:32:10.13\00:32:13.60
you read where He is
called in the most famous
00:32:13.63\00:32:15.63
verse of the Bible John 3:16,
00:32:15.66\00:32:17.67
He's called The
Only Begotten Son of God.
00:32:17.70\00:32:19.23
Yes.
00:32:19.27\00:32:20.64
You actually read a
passage where He is referred
00:32:20.67\00:32:22.10
to as the Beginning
of the Creation of God
00:32:22.14\00:32:24.81
in the Book of Revelation.
00:32:24.84\00:32:26.61
So all of this language,
00:32:26.68\00:32:28.61
people have focused
in the bark on the tree.
00:32:28.64\00:32:32.58
Okay, John 3:16, it says,
00:32:32.61\00:32:34.85
He is the Only
Begotten Son of God.
00:32:34.88\00:32:37.85
What's hard to understand
about that someone will say?
00:32:37.89\00:32:40.49
If He is the Son
and God is the Father,
00:32:40.56\00:32:44.13
they couldn't be
chronologically concurrent.
00:32:44.16\00:32:47.83
The Father must...
00:32:47.86\00:32:49.20
We all know if you
have a father and a son,
00:32:49.23\00:32:51.87
the father preceded,
preceded in time, the son...
00:32:51.90\00:32:56.57
In human relationships,
that's how it works.
00:32:56.60\00:32:58.54
I have a son, I
existed before my son Jason.
00:32:58.57\00:33:01.91
So people look at the text
and say, "If He is the Son,
00:33:01.94\00:33:04.91
He couldn't have always
existed and He couldn't be God
00:33:04.95\00:33:08.68
in the same sense
that the Father is God."
00:33:08.72\00:33:11.02
He must be in some sense
like the Jehovah's Witnesses
00:33:11.05\00:33:13.79
would say, He is
a God, but not God.
00:33:13.86\00:33:17.96
See?
00:33:17.99\00:33:19.49
So that...
00:33:19.53\00:33:20.90
Or as the Catholics
believe in eternal generation
00:33:20.93\00:33:23.87
that He emanating from God.
00:33:23.90\00:33:26.07
Yeah,
perpetually for all... Yeah.
00:33:26.10\00:33:29.14
So this is the problem
in the New Testament, okay?
00:33:29.17\00:33:33.11
So people focus on
that and they draw doctrine
00:33:33.14\00:33:36.85
from looking at the
verses in isolation.
00:33:36.88\00:33:41.72
So I began to say
to myself, "Okay, well,
00:33:41.75\00:33:44.59
wait a minute though.
00:33:44.62\00:33:46.42
I know that
everything else I encounter
00:33:46.45\00:33:49.16
in the New Testament
00:33:49.19\00:33:50.63
has an Old
Testament foundation."
00:33:50.66\00:33:53.83
Yes.
00:33:53.90\00:33:55.23
So I began to think, "Okay,
00:33:55.26\00:33:56.60
does this have a
grounding in the Old Testament?"
00:33:56.63\00:33:58.20
Because the fact is, Shelley,
I mean, think about this,
00:33:58.23\00:34:00.34
not only does the New
Testament say that Jesus
00:34:00.37\00:34:02.67
is the Son of God,
the firstborn Son of God,
00:34:02.70\00:34:05.17
the only begotten Son of God,
00:34:05.21\00:34:06.57
the same New Testament
says He is in very nature God
00:34:06.61\00:34:10.55
and equal with
God in Philippians 2.
00:34:10.58\00:34:12.35
The Fullness of the Godhead...
00:34:12.38\00:34:13.95
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:34:14.02\00:34:15.35
"Fullness of the
Godhead in bodily form."
00:34:15.38\00:34:17.99
Matthew 1:23, when Mary
gives birth to this baby,
00:34:18.02\00:34:22.29
angel says call Him Emanuel,
00:34:22.32\00:34:24.06
which being
interpreted is God with us,
00:34:24.13\00:34:26.80
and 1 Timothy 3:16,
which you might just,
00:34:26.83\00:34:30.87
you know,
compare it to John 3:16.
00:34:30.90\00:34:33.07
John 3:16 says that He's
this only begotten Son of God,
00:34:33.10\00:34:36.47
1 Timothy 3:16 says,
00:34:36.50\00:34:38.24
"Great is the
mystery of godliness.
00:34:38.27\00:34:41.08
God was
manifested in the flesh."
00:34:41.11\00:34:44.95
So the same New
Testament that says
00:34:44.98\00:34:46.65
He's the son of God says
00:34:46.72\00:34:48.52
He is God in very nature God.
00:34:48.55\00:34:52.55
So you have a conundrum,
00:34:52.59\00:34:53.96
you have a
problem, and generally,
00:34:53.99\00:34:56.12
the way the debate has gone
down through church history,
00:34:56.16\00:35:00.70
is people on each
side of the debate
00:35:00.73\00:35:03.50
have selected their verses.
00:35:03.57\00:35:06.27
Those who favor the
"Trinitarian view" of God
00:35:06.30\00:35:09.24
have said "Well,
it says He's God."
00:35:09.27\00:35:12.67
So they focus on those
00:35:12.71\00:35:14.18
and they struggle with the ones
00:35:14.21\00:35:16.21
that don't fit that
paradigm, the Son of God text.
00:35:16.24\00:35:19.48
Those who favor
what is sometimes called,
00:35:19.51\00:35:22.25
the Non-Trinitarian or
the Anti-Trinitarian view,
00:35:22.28\00:35:26.12
focus on what it says, it
says He's the firstborn Son,
00:35:26.15\00:35:28.56
it says...
00:35:28.59\00:35:29.92
And they struggle to
make sense of the God
00:35:29.96\00:35:32.46
verses that say He
is in very nature God.
00:35:32.49\00:35:34.56
And so you end
up at, what I call,
00:35:34.60\00:35:36.23
a proof text impasse.
00:35:36.26\00:35:37.97
Yeah.
00:35:38.00\00:35:39.33
I've got my verses,
you've got your verses,
00:35:39.37\00:35:41.14
let's form
denominations over this.
00:35:41.17\00:35:43.61
Let's separate over this,
00:35:43.64\00:35:44.97
let's be at
theological enmity over this.
00:35:45.01\00:35:48.24
But here's the thing.
00:35:48.28\00:35:50.65
The Scriptures
synthesize both identities.
00:35:50.68\00:35:54.88
So here's how it
works, this is what...
00:35:54.92\00:35:57.32
This is the gist of what
I discovered in Scripture.
00:35:57.39\00:36:00.39
If you pan out from
the bark on the trees
00:36:00.46\00:36:02.49
to look at the whole forest
00:36:02.52\00:36:04.49
and you see
Scripture as a whole,
00:36:04.53\00:36:07.40
you discover, Shelley,
00:36:07.43\00:36:09.50
that this "Sonship" idea
00:36:09.53\00:36:12.57
is a theme in
Scripture that is initiated
00:36:12.60\00:36:15.87
in the very beginning
of the story in Genesis.
00:36:15.90\00:36:18.81
So God creates the
first man, his name is Adam,
00:36:18.84\00:36:22.64
He creates the first
woman, her name is Eve.
00:36:22.68\00:36:26.85
When Adam and Eve are created,
00:36:26.92\00:36:31.45
they are son and daughter
of God in a unique sense,
00:36:31.49\00:36:34.69
in a primary sense
in that they didn't have
00:36:34.72\00:36:37.26
a human mom and dad, right?
00:36:37.33\00:36:39.69
They're the first
man, the first woman,
00:36:39.73\00:36:41.93
and then they have the power,
00:36:41.96\00:36:43.60
according to
Genesis, of procreation.
00:36:43.67\00:36:46.27
So sons and
daughters will come forth
00:36:46.30\00:36:48.74
from this union of Adam and Eve.
00:36:48.77\00:36:51.97
And the
Scripture says that Adam...
00:36:52.01\00:36:53.71
this is in Genesis,
00:36:53.78\00:36:55.24
Adam will create
sons in his image.
00:36:55.28\00:36:58.88
Yes.
00:36:58.91\00:37:00.25
So there's this succession
of sons that is set up.
00:37:00.32\00:37:03.32
Well, when you fast
forward to the New Testament
00:37:03.39\00:37:05.29
and you see the cohesive
kind of the connective strands,
00:37:05.32\00:37:09.62
okay, when you come
to the New Testament,
00:37:09.66\00:37:11.86
the Gospels
Matthew, Mark, and Luke,
00:37:11.89\00:37:15.60
and John tell us who
Jesus is in the context
00:37:15.63\00:37:18.90
of that initial story.
00:37:18.93\00:37:20.27
And this is crucial,
Shelley, this is crucial.
00:37:20.34\00:37:22.57
In Luke 3:38, I remember...
00:37:22.60\00:37:24.51
Yes.
00:37:24.54\00:37:25.87
Luke 3:38 calls Adam son of God.
00:37:25.91\00:37:27.81
That's right.
00:37:27.84\00:37:29.18
So you have this genealogy
where it says so and so
00:37:29.21\00:37:31.48
is the son of so and so
00:37:31.51\00:37:32.85
and each one is the
son of some human father,
00:37:32.88\00:37:36.08
and it goes all the way
back, you know, Jesse or David,
00:37:36.12\00:37:39.95
the son of Jesse and
Jesse, the son of Obed,
00:37:39.99\00:37:42.46
and it goes back,
back, back, back, back,
00:37:42.49\00:37:44.36
and then it says
Adam the son of God.
00:37:44.39\00:37:47.23
Yes.
00:37:47.30\00:37:48.63
So this is the origin of
the language "son of God."
00:37:48.66\00:37:53.13
Adam is the first "son of God"
00:37:53.17\00:37:57.01
in the primary sense that
he is the one through whom
00:37:57.04\00:38:00.68
in a
genealogical flow of history,
00:38:00.71\00:38:03.78
every other human being
00:38:03.85\00:38:05.18
is going to come forth from him.
00:38:05.21\00:38:07.05
So Jesus is the Son of
God in the Adamic sense,
00:38:07.12\00:38:11.39
in the sense that
Adam was the Son of God
00:38:11.42\00:38:14.26
because here's
how the story flows.
00:38:14.29\00:38:16.73
Adam sins, the fall
occurs in the Genesis account.
00:38:16.76\00:38:21.66
When Adam sins, when Eve sins,
00:38:21.70\00:38:25.07
God enters the picture
00:38:25.10\00:38:26.43
in Genesis chapter
3 and makes a promise.
00:38:26.47\00:38:29.50
It is sometimes
called by Bible students,
00:38:29.54\00:38:31.87
by scholars the
first gospel promise
00:38:31.91\00:38:34.64
and it's a prophecy promise.
00:38:34.68\00:38:37.35
It's in Genesis 3:15 and
God is speaking to the serpent,
00:38:37.38\00:38:40.82
to Satan in the
presence of Adam and Eve
00:38:40.85\00:38:43.15
who have now fallen,
and God says to the serpent,
00:38:43.18\00:38:46.49
"I'm going to put enmity
or hostility between you,
00:38:46.52\00:38:50.56
Satan, and the woman,"
00:38:50.63\00:38:52.69
in this local,
historical sense Eve,
00:38:52.73\00:38:55.56
but in the larger
eschatological sense,
00:38:55.60\00:38:58.23
the Israel and the
church down through history.
00:38:58.27\00:39:01.07
"I'm going to put enmity
or hostility between you,
00:39:01.10\00:39:04.11
Satan, and the woman,"
00:39:04.14\00:39:06.81
and here's
what's going to happen.
00:39:06.88\00:39:08.88
"You will bruise his heel
and he will crush your head."
00:39:08.91\00:39:14.68
So God now in Genesis 3:15
00:39:14.72\00:39:18.62
has said that there is
going to be an offspring,
00:39:18.65\00:39:22.09
there's going to be a seed.
00:39:22.12\00:39:24.59
"I will put
enmity between your seed
00:39:24.63\00:39:28.46
and her seed."
00:39:28.50\00:39:30.07
That is the sons and daughters
that will come forth from Eve
00:39:30.10\00:39:36.14
and the church and
the sons and daughters
00:39:36.17\00:39:38.21
that will be in
a "spiritual sense"
00:39:38.24\00:39:40.31
the progeny of Satan and
his way of thinking of God
00:39:40.38\00:39:44.85
and doing life.
00:39:44.88\00:39:46.21
So this is remarkable.
00:39:46.25\00:39:47.62
Here is a promise at
the beginning of the story
00:39:47.65\00:39:50.29
of Scripture that we
might call a promise of progeny.
00:39:50.32\00:39:55.06
"Adam and Eve, you're going
to have a son at some point."
00:39:55.09\00:39:57.99
It's not specified when,
00:39:58.03\00:39:59.56
"but you're going to have a son
00:39:59.59\00:40:01.00
who will be the
'new' son of God."
00:40:01.03\00:40:06.27
He's going to come
through human lineage,
00:40:06.30\00:40:08.17
and that's the point.
00:40:08.20\00:40:09.67
So when you come as...
00:40:09.70\00:40:11.07
And He'll be the second
Adam is what Paul calls Him
00:40:11.11\00:40:13.78
in 1 Corinthians 15.
00:40:13.81\00:40:15.51
And also referring to Him
as the second Adam in Romans 5.
00:40:15.54\00:40:20.05
Yeah.
00:40:20.12\00:40:21.45
You know, Adam is the first
man in the representative sense
00:40:21.48\00:40:25.49
of the human race.
00:40:25.52\00:40:27.09
He is the
"prototypical" man Adam.
00:40:27.16\00:40:30.06
Well, Jesus is the
new prototypical man.
00:40:30.13\00:40:32.83
Yes.
00:40:32.86\00:40:34.20
Adam is the first
image-bearer of God,
00:40:34.23\00:40:38.50
who will create or
procreate in his image,
00:40:38.53\00:40:41.94
Jesus comes along and
Paul teaches us that Jesus
00:40:41.97\00:40:45.41
is now the image of
God reestablished...
00:40:45.44\00:40:48.58
Amen.
00:40:48.61\00:40:49.94
And out of him, there will
be, what Paul says, many sons,
00:40:49.98\00:40:53.75
many offspring, who
like Adam was supposed to do,
00:40:53.82\00:40:58.02
they will bear the image of God.
00:40:58.05\00:41:00.76
And so this is an
incredible tapestry.
00:41:00.79\00:41:03.83
It's a story that's unfolding.
00:41:03.86\00:41:06.23
So again, backing up and
then moving forward in Genesis,
00:41:06.26\00:41:09.80
Adam is the Son of God,
00:41:09.83\00:41:11.83
Luke informs us that
Jesus is the Son of God
00:41:11.87\00:41:14.47
in the Adamic sense, okay?
00:41:14.50\00:41:16.84
So now we have a
grounding for the language.
00:41:16.91\00:41:20.11
Well, then as the
story of Genesis unfolds,
00:41:20.18\00:41:22.68
the plan of salvation unfolds
00:41:22.71\00:41:25.11
with this idea of
primogenitor or firstborn son.
00:41:25.15\00:41:30.49
So God calls Abraham
00:41:30.52\00:41:33.09
because God is
going to follow through
00:41:33.12\00:41:34.99
what the Genesis 3:15 promise,
00:41:35.02\00:41:38.19
He said I'm going to send a son,
00:41:38.23\00:41:40.96
an offspring
through the human lineage
00:41:41.00\00:41:44.27
so He establishes a people.
00:41:44.30\00:41:46.43
He says, "Abraham, come out,
00:41:46.47\00:41:47.84
I'm starting a people with you."
00:41:47.87\00:41:50.31
That man Abraham is told by God,
00:41:50.34\00:41:55.11
"I'm going to give you a
son and your son will be the one
00:41:55.14\00:41:59.41
through whom the
promise will be carried forward
00:41:59.45\00:42:02.38
down through history."
00:42:02.42\00:42:03.79
So Abraham and
Sarah get all antsy
00:42:03.82\00:42:06.25
because they're getting old,
00:42:06.29\00:42:07.86
and they take
matters into their own hands
00:42:07.89\00:42:10.93
and they have Ishmael,
00:42:10.96\00:42:12.63
who is technically
Abraham's first born.
00:42:12.66\00:42:17.60
But God says in so
many words in the story,
00:42:17.63\00:42:19.87
that's not the son of promise.
00:42:19.90\00:42:23.14
And Hebrews 11
actually says that Abraham,
00:42:23.17\00:42:27.68
when Isaac comes along
and he goes to sacrifice him,
00:42:27.71\00:42:31.75
it calls Isaac
his only begotten son.
00:42:31.78\00:42:35.38
Yes.
00:42:35.42\00:42:36.79
There's the language, Shelley.
00:42:36.82\00:42:38.15
Yeah.
00:42:38.19\00:42:39.52
So we come in the New Testament,
00:42:39.55\00:42:40.89
we have to
interpret the language
00:42:40.92\00:42:42.26
of the New Testament,
00:42:42.29\00:42:43.63
Jesus is the only begotten
Son of God with the source
00:42:43.66\00:42:47.40
that it comes from.
00:42:47.43\00:42:48.76
So Abraham has Isaac
00:42:48.80\00:42:51.83
who is technically biologically
the second born son,
00:42:51.87\00:42:54.87
but he is in fact the
only or the firstborn son
00:42:54.90\00:42:58.07
in the covenantal sense.
00:42:58.11\00:42:59.97
'Cause it's a unique covenant.
00:43:00.01\00:43:01.34
Yeah.
00:43:01.38\00:43:02.71
And then Isaac and
Rebekah, they have two sons,
00:43:02.74\00:43:06.58
they have twins Jacob and
Esau, well, technically again,
00:43:06.61\00:43:11.49
Esau is the firstborn,
Jacob is the second born,
00:43:11.52\00:43:15.86
but Jacob becomes the
firstborn in the sense
00:43:15.89\00:43:19.86
that he's the
one that will carry
00:43:19.89\00:43:21.60
the promise forward.
00:43:21.63\00:43:23.60
He's the covenantal son of
God, the narrative son of God.
00:43:23.67\00:43:28.74
So you have the same idea.
00:43:28.77\00:43:30.74
Then as the story unfolds,
this is so remarkable, Shelley.
00:43:30.81\00:43:35.41
Jacob has 12 sons,
00:43:35.44\00:43:37.91
his 12 sons then go
into Egyptian bondage
00:43:37.95\00:43:41.92
and they reproduce and
reproduce and reproduce,
00:43:41.95\00:43:44.79
and they become a nation.
00:43:44.82\00:43:46.86
They become a nation, Shelley.
00:43:46.89\00:43:49.06
Jacob's name was changed
00:43:49.09\00:43:51.69
in his wrestling
match with the Lord,
00:43:51.73\00:43:54.70
and his name was
changed from Jacob to Israel.
00:43:54.73\00:43:57.80
Israel now, this is amazing,
becomes the corporate name,
00:43:57.83\00:44:03.27
a corporate name of all his sons
00:44:03.30\00:44:05.64
and all their progeny.
00:44:05.67\00:44:07.01
So the nation is now known
by the name of their father
00:44:07.08\00:44:10.85
Jacob who is Israel.
00:44:10.88\00:44:12.71
That's how we get
the nation of Israel.
00:44:12.75\00:44:14.22
Now this is amazing.
00:44:14.25\00:44:16.12
Israel is in Egyptian
bondage, now check this out,
00:44:16.15\00:44:19.22
this is so incredible.
00:44:19.25\00:44:20.96
They're in Egyptian bondage,
God calls Moses, and says,
00:44:20.99\00:44:24.83
"Moses, go to
Pharaoh and tell Pharaoh,
00:44:24.86\00:44:28.93
'let my son go.'"
00:44:28.96\00:44:33.34
Singular.
00:44:33.37\00:44:34.90
Who is His son?
00:44:34.94\00:44:37.67
The son of God
00:44:37.71\00:44:39.34
now takes on the
corporate identity of Israel.
00:44:39.37\00:44:42.74
This is how the story unfolds.
00:44:42.78\00:44:44.81
So now the son of God...
00:44:44.85\00:44:47.65
Actually, in
the text, in Exodus,
00:44:47.68\00:44:51.32
God tells Pharaoh
through Moses that,
00:44:51.35\00:44:54.79
"Israel is My begotten son."
00:44:54.82\00:44:58.39
The word
"begotten" is used again.
00:44:58.43\00:45:00.70
So unique.
00:45:00.73\00:45:02.06
Yeah, yeah. It's unique.
00:45:02.10\00:45:03.43
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:03.47\00:45:04.80
So God has a chosen people,
00:45:04.83\00:45:06.17
they're called
Israel and God says,
00:45:06.20\00:45:07.54
"I'm your
Father," He says to them.
00:45:07.57\00:45:10.51
Unlike the other
nations who have the fathers,
00:45:10.54\00:45:14.34
their fathers or their
"gods" are Marduk and Moloch
00:45:14.38\00:45:18.91
and Ishtar and Dagan
and all these other deities.
00:45:18.95\00:45:23.28
God says, "No, I'm your
Father in a unique special sense
00:45:23.32\00:45:27.06
and you're My son."
00:45:27.09\00:45:28.66
And the idea, the concept is...
00:45:28.69\00:45:31.06
Shelley, this is amazing.
00:45:31.09\00:45:32.49
The concept,
this is so beautiful,
00:45:32.53\00:45:35.63
is that Israel now is
God's son in a corporate sense
00:45:35.66\00:45:41.64
as the conduit
00:45:41.67\00:45:44.31
through which the promise
is going to be carried down
00:45:44.34\00:45:46.91
through the ages,
down through the ages,
00:45:46.98\00:45:48.41
down through the ages,
00:45:48.44\00:45:50.25
through whom the
Messiah will be born
00:45:50.28\00:45:53.85
as the Son of God.
00:45:53.92\00:45:57.69
So it's all connected.
00:45:57.72\00:45:59.05
Jesus is the Son of God
00:45:59.09\00:46:00.76
in the sense that
Adam was the Son of God.
00:46:00.79\00:46:03.66
Jesus is the Son of
God in the sense that Isaac
00:46:03.73\00:46:07.60
and Jacob and
Israel was the son of God.
00:46:07.63\00:46:10.77
So when the Lord says,
00:46:10.80\00:46:12.60
"This is My beloved Son
in whom I am well pleased.
00:46:12.63\00:46:15.94
Today I have begotten you."
00:46:15.97\00:46:18.34
Yeah.
00:46:18.37\00:46:19.71
It was...
00:46:19.74\00:46:21.08
Are you saying
then, and I know you are,
00:46:21.11\00:46:22.91
but I'll try to put it in
simple way, that God was...
00:46:22.94\00:46:27.62
Christ was always
eternal and, you know,
00:46:27.65\00:46:31.42
Philippians 2:5 and 3:8, says,
00:46:31.45\00:46:34.82
"He did not consider
equality with God to be robbery
00:46:34.86\00:46:39.36
because He was equal with God."
00:46:39.39\00:46:41.43
So He was always
eternal, He was always God.
00:46:41.46\00:46:46.30
But when He
became the covenant son,
00:46:46.33\00:46:51.31
the second Adam...
00:46:51.34\00:46:52.67
Man, I love your articulation.
00:46:52.71\00:46:54.08
This is... Yes.
00:46:54.11\00:46:55.44
Okay, so when He became
the covenant son of promise...
00:46:55.48\00:46:58.78
Yeah.
00:46:58.81\00:47:00.15
That's when He actually
became "the Son of God."
00:47:00.22\00:47:04.82
That's why Hebrew one specifies,
00:47:04.85\00:47:08.49
quoting from the Psalms,
which is a messianic prophecy,
00:47:08.52\00:47:11.66
that's why the Book of
Hebrews specifies, Shelley,
00:47:11.69\00:47:14.10
"Today I have begotten you."
00:47:14.13\00:47:16.33
Today, at the
point of incarnation,
00:47:16.36\00:47:19.40
when you come
through the womb of woman,
00:47:19.43\00:47:22.07
because that was the
promise back in Genesis 3:15,
00:47:22.10\00:47:25.41
"To the serpent in
the hearing of the woman,
00:47:25.44\00:47:28.01
I will put enmity between
you, Satan, and the woman."
00:47:28.04\00:47:32.08
The woman then becomes
the personified channel
00:47:32.11\00:47:35.48
through which
Messiah is going to come
00:47:35.52\00:47:37.02
into the world through birth.
00:47:37.09\00:47:38.42
So when Jesus comes
into the world, Shelley,
00:47:38.45\00:47:41.66
that's the reference
point for the sonship of Christ.
00:47:41.69\00:47:47.13
So think about it like this.
00:47:47.20\00:47:49.60
Jesus
preexisted His incarnation.
00:47:49.63\00:47:54.74
Yes.
00:47:54.77\00:47:56.10
He existed as,
according to Scripture, God.
00:47:56.14\00:48:00.01
As very God.
00:48:00.08\00:48:01.41
"In the beginning was the
Word, the Word was with God..."
00:48:01.44\00:48:02.81
"The Word was God."
00:48:02.84\00:48:04.18
He was God.
00:48:04.25\00:48:05.61
And as God,
00:48:05.65\00:48:07.65
a great
condescension was entered into.
00:48:07.68\00:48:12.22
I mean, the God... I
mean, Shelley, think of this.
00:48:12.25\00:48:14.26
The God of the universe
loves you by name Shelly,
00:48:14.29\00:48:19.46
loves me by name Ty
00:48:19.49\00:48:20.93
and every member
of the human race.
00:48:20.96\00:48:22.96
God literally loved you
and me with such a passionate,
00:48:23.00\00:48:25.97
selfless, other-centered love
00:48:26.00\00:48:28.27
that God condescended to become
a member of the human race.
00:48:28.30\00:48:33.11
Not temporarily but eternally
He is, according to Hebrews,
00:48:33.14\00:48:37.25
our brother in
the flesh forever.
00:48:37.28\00:48:41.02
Yes.
00:48:41.05\00:48:42.38
This is a sacrifice of
monumental proportions.
00:48:42.42\00:48:46.69
You know, I'm going to tell you,
00:48:46.76\00:48:48.16
I have long said
00:48:48.19\00:48:50.33
that the greatest sacrifice
of Christ was not on the cross,
00:48:50.36\00:48:54.60
don't
misunderstand what I'm saying,
00:48:54.63\00:48:56.87
His greatest
sacrifice was eternal God
00:48:56.90\00:48:59.83
became a human being,
He took on our humanity.
00:48:59.87\00:49:02.90
And a lot of scholars
00:49:02.94\00:49:04.41
called that the humiliation
of Christ to think that God
00:49:04.44\00:49:10.08
would become the second Adam,
00:49:10.15\00:49:11.88
become the
covenant son of promise
00:49:11.91\00:49:15.38
so that He could
die in our place.
00:49:15.42\00:49:17.39
It's amazing. But even though...
00:49:17.42\00:49:19.79
And we're just running out time,
00:49:19.82\00:49:21.19
but I just have to say this.
00:49:21.22\00:49:23.29
Even though I've
been saying similar things
00:49:23.32\00:49:26.80
to what you're saying
00:49:26.83\00:49:28.16
without putting
this all together,
00:49:28.20\00:49:30.27
when I read Ty's book,
00:49:30.30\00:49:32.03
it's called, "The
Sonship of Christ.
00:49:32.07\00:49:35.47
Exploring the Covenant
Identity of God and Man,"
00:49:35.50\00:49:38.81
let me tell you, and
this is available at Ty...
00:49:38.84\00:49:42.51
TyGibson.com.
00:49:42.54\00:49:45.25
Okay.
00:49:45.28\00:49:46.61
They can also get
it at lightbearers.org.
00:49:46.65\00:49:48.45
Okay. But here...
00:49:48.48\00:49:49.82
They can also get it at
Amazon, whatever that is.
00:49:49.85\00:49:52.29
All right.
00:49:52.32\00:49:53.66
But here is what it did for me
00:49:53.69\00:49:57.36
and I don't know that
I can articulate this,
00:49:57.43\00:50:00.10
I'm anxious to read it again,
00:50:00.13\00:50:02.13
but I remember for weeks
00:50:02.16\00:50:05.33
after I first
read this manuscript,
00:50:05.37\00:50:08.80
when I would pray,
00:50:08.84\00:50:11.11
I had a bigger
picture of Jesus Christ.
00:50:11.14\00:50:15.91
Even though I've been saying,
00:50:15.94\00:50:17.28
okay, He came
down, He took on me...
00:50:17.35\00:50:18.68
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:18.71\00:50:20.05
It was like,
"You are eternal God."
00:50:20.08\00:50:23.15
I mean, at some point,
you could say maybe in heaven,
00:50:23.18\00:50:26.05
son of God was a title
reserved for Him, but he...
00:50:26.09\00:50:28.92
Absolutely. He wasn't.
00:50:28.96\00:50:30.63
The same, by the way, Shelley,
00:50:30.66\00:50:32.29
that He is referred
to as the Lamb slain
00:50:32.33\00:50:35.43
from the
foundation of the world.
00:50:35.46\00:50:36.80
Of course we know that
He wasn't actually slain
00:50:36.87\00:50:39.63
until AD 31 when
He was crucified,
00:50:39.67\00:50:41.90
but He was
designated to the role
00:50:41.94\00:50:46.11
before He came to this world.
00:50:46.14\00:50:47.51
All right, so
we're almost out of time,
00:50:47.58\00:50:49.64
so here's what I want to do.
00:50:49.68\00:50:51.58
We're going to put
up the address roll
00:50:51.61\00:50:53.75
if you would like to
contact Light Bearers,
00:50:53.82\00:50:56.89
but we're going to
have I think your address...
00:50:56.92\00:51:00.09
Website,
TyGibson.com to get this book.
00:51:00.16\00:51:03.26
"The Sonship of Christ"
00:51:06.53\00:51:08.23
Explains why Jesus
Christ is called the Son of God.
00:51:08.26\00:51:12.40
To order your copy,
00:51:12.43\00:51:13.77
visit his
website, LightBearers.org.
00:51:13.84\00:51:16.74
That's LightBearers.org.
00:51:16.81\00:51:19.41
If you would like to invite
Ty to speak at your church,
00:51:19.44\00:51:22.24
just call him at (541)988-3333.
00:51:22.28\00:51:28.42
That's (541)988-3333.
00:51:28.45\00:51:33.22
You may also
write to Light Bearers
00:51:33.25\00:51:35.52
37457 Jasper Lowell Road
00:51:35.56\00:51:39.53
in Jasper, Oregon 97438.
00:51:39.56\00:51:42.80