I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Removing pain
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Lord, let my words
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Heal a heart that hurts
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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Hello, and welcome
to 3ABN Today! I'm so
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excited. I have
Jason Bradley, my son and
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co-host. Hey Jace!
And we have an amazing
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program. Are you
excited about the program? - I'm
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excited about it. -
Tell us why. - Because, I
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mean, we're going to
be discussing topics that
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need to be discussed.
I mean, there are things
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that are going on in
our world that society is
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trying to normalize
and make it seem like it's
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an acceptable form
of behavior, and we have
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to counteract the
counterfeit. - There we
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go. And our guests
are on the front lines.
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I mean, they are
fighting for... I guess for
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redemption and
showing that people can be
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redeemed. So, instead
of me talking about it,
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why don't I introduce
our guests? Our guests
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are from Coming Out
Ministries. Pastor Ron Woolsey
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and Mike
Carducci. Yay! You guys are
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more than just our
colleagues in ministry;
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you're our brothers
and you're our family,
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and we love you
guys. - Thank you. - Yeah.
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Yvonne, you gave us
the first break years ago
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by interviewing us. -
Well, praise the Lord.
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It's interesting,
because I was at ASI and I met
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Wayne there. Before I
met you, I think I met
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Wayne first. He was at
the booth, at the Coming
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Out Ministries booth,
and we started talking.
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I found out what
your ministry was about. I
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was like, "Oh,
no. Our 3ABN viewers
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have to know about
this," so we're really thankful
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that you guys are here.
Tell us about Coming Out
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Ministries! What is it?
- Well, we organized about
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8 years ago. A
number of us were working
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individually in our
own ministries, sharing our
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testimonies and
speaking for the Lord wherever
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we had opportunity.
A mutual acquaintance
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called us and
suggested we get together, meet
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each other, talk
about working together, and
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we did that-SoCal
Camp Meeting out in
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California-and
there, Coming Out Ministries
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was born, and we've
been carrying on now for
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eight years. - What
are you coming out of?
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How'd the name...
- Darkness into His
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marvelous light. -
Yes. Mike, tell us what your
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impression of
Coming Out Ministries-the
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focus. - Sure.
Well, when I came out of
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the gay culture,
after living that way for 20
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years-and I had come
out of Adventism basically
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because I couldn't
get my sexuality and my
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religion to come
together. So, when I came back,
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I still didn't have
resources available to
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me to help guide me.
I still struggle with
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same-sex attraction; I
still was struggling with
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a lot of these
things inside my mind, and I
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thought that
magically, it would all be gone
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when I came up out
of the water. As Coming
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Out Ministries, we
really intended to minister
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primarily to
people like ourselves that
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were desperate for
resources and tend to know,
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"Hey, this is
somebody else's experience and
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this can be
yours." I think what really
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happened for me is
that it watered down
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the power of Jesus
Christ to the point
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where I just thought
Jesus was a good guy. What
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I had to realize,
again, is that He still had
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the same power that
He had 2000 years ago
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to heal people.
And Ministry of Healing
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was one of the books
that really helped me
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to understand that
process, but what we
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realize now is that
Coming Out Ministries
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really has an
application for all of us. We're
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all coming out. Revelation
says, "Come out of her,
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my peoples." Let's get
a T-shirt that just says,
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"I'm coming out," and on
the back put- in Revelation:
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"Come out of her,
my people." Now, we see
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that the ministry is
much broader than just
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the LGBT issue;
it's about educating the
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church and also
ministering to victory over sin.
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- That's one of
the things that I love
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about Coming Out
Ministries. You don't just focus
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on homosexual sin;
you focus on sin, because
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sin is sin across the
board. We're all sinners
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saved by grace, so
you guys don't just focus
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on one sin; sin is
sin, and you talk about
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how to get the
victory. And you, Pastor Ron,
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just said, "It's
about bringing us out from
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darkness into
God's light." We have-how
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about this
segue?-we have a song called,
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"The Lighthouse"
that we're going to play
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right now with
Brother Sam Ocampo.
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Wow. Sam makes me
wish I would've stuck with
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piano lessons. I
don't know why you let me
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quit! - [laughs] You
know, don't get me started
00:10:27.72\00:10:30.53
with that! You
don't even want me to go
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there! - I don't
think we have enough time.
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[laughter] - I
know; we don't even wanna
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go there. Yes, and
thank you, Sam, for that song.
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We need the light of
Jesus Christ in our lives
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to bring us out
from darkness! And that's
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what we're talking
about today. God has
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brought you, has
brought us, out from darkness
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into His marvelous
light. - You know, one
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of the things that I
really appreciate and
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admire about you guys
is you're open; you're
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transparent. I mean, you
have to be very vulnerable
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because you share some
things that took place in
00:11:04.86\00:11:08.66
your lives that a
lot of people would be
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uncomfortable
sharing. But yet, you do that,
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and people see that
you gained the victory over
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whatever it was
that you were struggling
00:11:19.24\00:11:20.78
within your past.
And that helps other
00:11:20.84\00:11:23.75
people overcome, as
well; it gives them a sense
00:11:23.81\00:11:26.55
of hope. - You know,
one thing, I think, that
00:11:26.61\00:11:28.98
helps us-and I can
share an example-I call this
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"the gospel according
to gossip." There was a
00:11:33.82\00:11:36.69
gossiper at a
camp meeting that was
00:11:36.79\00:11:38.96
talking about me and
my past, and the gossipee,
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the one listening,
was not hearing about Ron
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Woolsey's failures; he
was hearing about God's
00:11:45.67\00:11:47.84
power. Though the
intent of the gossiper was
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malicious, the
gossipee then came to me (and
00:11:51.91\00:11:56.31
I didn't know this
conversation had gone
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on). He looked at me
kind of funny. He said,
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"Man, Pastor Ron.
If God can save you, He
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can save anybody!" And
I said, "What do you mean
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by that?"
[laughter] Then he had told me
00:12:08.16\00:12:09.96
what he had heard,
then afterwards, he
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asked if I would
baptize him. That's why
00:12:13.13\00:12:14.66
I called it "the
gospel according to gossip."
00:12:14.73\00:12:16.43
I baptized that
fella after that episode of
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gossip that he went
through. But it's true
00:12:19.63\00:12:24.47
when you hear that
kind of reaction to your
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extreme testimony,
you realize, "We serve
00:12:28.38\00:12:31.71
an extreme God," and
we need to talk about
00:12:31.78\00:12:33.68
it. It's not
about what we have done
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and what the devil has
done in our lives; it's
00:12:37.39\00:12:39.45
what God has done
that we focus on, and that
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gives us courage to
go forward. - Absolutely.
00:12:42.49\00:12:45.03
- I think of
Revelation 12:11 that says if we
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overcome by the blood
of the Lamb and by the
00:12:47.50\00:12:49.73
word of our testimony...
And when we give our
00:12:49.80\00:12:52.50
testimony, it's not
just the people that
00:12:52.53\00:12:54.64
struggle with
same-sex attraction that come
00:12:54.70\00:12:56.74
forward. It's
everyone! And they say, "Wow,
00:12:56.84\00:12:59.21
that story really
touched me and had a personal
00:12:59.27\00:13:03.65
application." I
think that it's really sad
00:13:03.75\00:13:07.22
that more people
don't have that freedom to
00:13:07.32\00:13:09.12
tell their story,
'cause people say, "Oh, that
00:13:09.18\00:13:10.99
was really brave of
you to really tell all
00:13:11.02\00:13:12.62
the details," or
whatever. And I think,
00:13:12.72\00:13:14.36
"No, not really,"
because whenever I tell that
00:13:14.42\00:13:16.86
story, we get a lot
of support, and I think
00:13:16.93\00:13:19.46
of the people that
are really hurting in the
00:13:19.56\00:13:20.96
pews that don't
feel that they have the
00:13:21.00\00:13:23.93
freedom to tell what
they've gone through.
00:13:24.03\00:13:26.00
So, maybe at first,
it was a little daring,
00:13:26.07\00:13:28.14
but now, we get a
lot of support from the
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churches and places
that we speak at. - I
00:13:31.37\00:13:33.84
think it would be
good for our viewers who
00:13:33.88\00:13:36.71
are just tuning in
for the first time-...
00:13:36.75\00:13:40.08
Some of our viewers
have heard your story
00:13:40.18\00:13:42.22
before, but some have
not. Can you just kind
00:13:42.32\00:13:46.09
of give a brief
snippet of your testimony so
00:13:46.12\00:13:49.82
that you can kind
of acquaint the people
00:13:49.89\00:13:52.66
who don't know about
you with you? - Well,
00:13:52.76\00:13:55.36
it's a good
question that you're asking,
00:13:55.46\00:13:57.50
because our
ministry really does have a
00:13:57.57\00:14:00.14
three-pronged
approach now (and maybe we
00:14:00.24\00:14:05.04
can talk about
that). The first is that we
00:14:05.11\00:14:08.98
want to inspire the
church, and we inspire
00:14:09.04\00:14:13.05
by telling our testimonies.
Mike quoted Revelation
00:14:13.11\00:14:17.72
12:11 that we
overcome by the blood of the
00:14:17.82\00:14:19.75
Lamb and the word of
our testimonies, and we
00:14:19.79\00:14:21.96
find people that are
very inspired when they
00:14:21.99\00:14:24.79
hear what the Lord has
done in our lives. I was
00:14:24.86\00:14:28.36
the one who was
sexually molested as
00:14:28.40\00:14:31.30
a very young
child- 4 years old. I was
00:14:31.37\00:14:33.60
repeatedly molested
in grade school. I think
00:14:33.64\00:14:37.21
I was pushed away
from my peer group
00:14:37.27\00:14:40.74
and pushed away from
my gender through mocking
00:14:40.84\00:14:43.08
and making fun and
through molestation. I ended
00:14:43.18\00:14:49.92
up eventually going
into the gay life and spent
00:14:49.98\00:14:52.92
many years there,
but I never really was
00:14:52.95\00:14:57.39
comfortable that I
was okay with God, and I
00:14:57.43\00:15:00.13
was a spiritual
person. After years of spending
00:15:00.16\00:15:03.37
my life in the gay
world, I studied my
00:15:03.40\00:15:06.60
way out. I went to
the Bible, I went to our
00:15:06.74\00:15:11.14
inspired writings
(books like Steps to Christ and
00:15:11.24\00:15:15.21
The Great
Controversy and Desire of Ages)-
00:15:15.28\00:15:18.98
all of those. I know
I started out reading
00:15:19.05\00:15:21.48
with a margarita
in one hand and a
00:15:21.58\00:15:23.28
cigarette in the
other. I was desperate to
00:15:23.32\00:15:25.49
find answers. I
found everything I needed
00:15:25.55\00:15:29.39
as a gay person. I
found everything I needed
00:15:29.46\00:15:32.89
through the Word of
God to turn and walk away.
00:15:32.96\00:15:36.40
That was a
struggle, but it was doable
00:15:36.46\00:15:39.37
because God's grace
is sufficient. So, I have
00:15:39.43\00:15:42.30
lived these 27 years
now free from the gay
00:15:42.34\00:15:46.68
life; married for
26 years. We have 5
00:15:46.74\00:15:50.11
children between
us; 2 together. We have
00:15:50.21\00:15:54.52
grandchildren. 27
years in ministry, and the
00:15:54.58\00:15:57.55
Lord has never
failed me. I know I have
00:15:57.62\00:16:00.29
failed Him from time
to time, but He has never
00:16:00.39\00:16:02.36
failed me. I
would never go back. So,
00:16:02.42\00:16:04.96
we hope people are
inspired by that. I
00:16:05.03\00:16:07.86
know Mike's got
an amazing testimony,
00:16:07.93\00:16:10.17
as well. - Yes... -
It's interesting, because
00:16:10.27\00:16:14.34
each person in
Coming Out Ministries has a
00:16:14.40\00:16:16.64
completely
different story, and a lot of
00:16:16.71\00:16:18.71
people think that
there's a formula for why
00:16:18.74\00:16:20.91
somebody's gay or
bisexual. One of the
00:16:20.98\00:16:23.85
beautiful things
also that Coming Out
00:16:23.88\00:16:25.21
Ministries has
been working on is an
00:16:25.25\00:16:27.75
associate pathway
where other people
00:16:27.82\00:16:29.15
come in and they're
like, "I have a story!"
00:16:29.22\00:16:31.12
You know? "I want to
tell my story; we want
00:16:31.22\00:16:33.36
to work with you!"
So, Pastor Ron actually
00:16:33.46\00:16:36.12
oversees that, and
through Bible studies
00:16:36.19\00:16:38.39
and opportunities for
them to practice telling
00:16:38.46\00:16:41.76
their story, we're
actually bringing in
00:16:41.86\00:16:43.43
other people into the
ministry, as well. But
00:16:43.47\00:16:45.60
my story actually
began from my first conscious
00:16:45.70\00:16:47.97
moment; I thought I
was a girl. It was no doubt
00:16:48.04\00:16:50.57
in my mind from my
earliest thoughts, and
00:16:50.61\00:16:52.94
it wasn't until I
came back at 40 years old
00:16:53.01\00:16:56.28
that I made this
demand to God; I wanted Him to
00:16:56.34\00:16:58.35
know how I was transgendered
at my earliest thoughts.
00:16:58.41\00:17:01.15
And through science
and through the Bible, it
00:17:01.25\00:17:03.42
started to show me
that there was a breakdown
00:17:03.45\00:17:06.45
between my father and
me- the same-sex parent.
00:17:06.55\00:17:08.82
My dad was either
unavailable for me or,
00:17:08.92\00:17:11.89
when he was, he was
angry and abusive, so
00:17:11.96\00:17:13.86
I didn't want
that sexuality or that
00:17:13.93\00:17:16.26
identity, and so
I went to my mom. My
00:17:16.33\00:17:19.07
earliest thoughts
after consciousness is that
00:17:19.13\00:17:21.34
I should be like my
sisters without another
00:17:21.40\00:17:23.61
role model that I
found acceptable. I just
00:17:23.64\00:17:26.98
started patterning
that way and I thought
00:17:27.08\00:17:28.91
that if I prayed
hard enough that maybe,
00:17:29.01\00:17:31.11
God would turn me into a
little girl and everything
00:17:31.18\00:17:32.78
would be alright. So,
that eventually led to
00:17:32.88\00:17:36.69
same-sex attraction
through some exposure
00:17:36.72\00:17:40.16
to my best friends
engaging in a homosexual
00:17:40.19\00:17:44.49
act; all of these
things were having an influence
00:17:44.59\00:17:46.80
on me-and I was never
molested like Ron was-
00:17:46.83\00:17:49.00
but there were
definitely some influences that
00:17:49.10\00:17:51.57
were helping to shape
that. At 20 years old,
00:17:51.63\00:17:53.84
I finally was okay
with being male, because
00:17:53.90\00:17:56.50
coming out of church
culture into gay culture,
00:17:56.57\00:17:59.64
masculinity was
more valuable. So, if I
00:17:59.71\00:18:02.64
butch it up a little
bit and worked out in the
00:18:02.71\00:18:04.58
gym, I found that I
got all the attention
00:18:04.65\00:18:05.98
from men that I
wanted. So, it was like it went
00:18:06.01\00:18:08.15
from one side of the
ditch to the other. Amazingly,
00:18:08.18\00:18:12.22
though, I had
three sisters that were
00:18:12.29\00:18:13.79
praying for me.
Wanted nothing to do with
00:18:13.82\00:18:15.56
the God that I
thought wanted nothing to do
00:18:15.66\00:18:17.06
with me, but those
prayers came and got
00:18:17.16\00:18:19.53
me. At what I thought
was the top of my game,
00:18:19.59\00:18:24.10
I was a
hairdresser and an aerobics
00:18:24.17\00:18:26.17
instructor. I don't
know that you can get
00:18:26.23\00:18:27.87
any more gay than
that; that was-... [laughter]
00:18:27.94\00:18:30.41
That was the
pinnacle of my life. The Lord
00:18:30.51\00:18:33.24
was able to reach me;
began this journey. It
00:18:33.38\00:18:36.75
was difficult,
because, again, I needed those
00:18:36.85\00:18:39.21
resources that Coming
Out Ministries has now,
00:18:39.28\00:18:41.18
but the Lord was
faithful. He says, "I'll
00:18:41.25\00:18:43.42
finish the work that I
have started," and He's
00:18:43.49\00:18:45.42
been incredibly
faithful. - Amen. Amen. - You
00:18:45.49\00:18:48.86
know, that second
prong of our approach is to
00:18:48.96\00:18:54.10
enlighten the
church, so we go beyond our
00:18:54.20\00:18:57.53
testimonies
through our study and our
00:18:57.57\00:19:00.77
experience and the
study of the Word of God.
00:19:00.80\00:19:02.77
We worked to educate
the church. For example,
00:19:02.84\00:19:06.41
we addressed
certain myths that are out
00:19:06.47\00:19:09.91
there, because we
believe truth can bear
00:19:10.01\00:19:12.38
scrutiny. Truth is
fact, and fact cannot be
00:19:12.41\00:19:17.22
altered; gravity works
without- I mean, there's
00:19:17.25\00:19:19.85
no contest on how
gravity works. It doesn't matter
00:19:19.92\00:19:23.12
what you believe;
it's going to work the same
00:19:23.19\00:19:25.69
way all the time, and
truth is that way. So,
00:19:25.73\00:19:28.46
we believe that
truth can bear scrutiny. We
00:19:28.53\00:19:30.47
take various statements
that come, for example,
00:19:30.50\00:19:33.54
out of the LGBT
culture that "people are born
00:19:33.64\00:19:36.81
this way; once
gay, always gay; it's an
00:19:36.91\00:19:39.17
acceptable
alternative lifestyle; it's not
00:19:39.24\00:19:40.98
associated with
promiscuity, and it's
00:19:41.01\00:19:45.85
a safe culture," and
all of that. So, we take
00:19:45.91\00:19:49.85
these statements
and then we just present
00:19:49.92\00:19:54.26
facts from science-from
research-from surveys,
00:19:54.29\00:19:58.63
and we go back to
the history of where this
00:19:58.69\00:20:02.00
"born gay" ideology even
came from. It was totally
00:20:02.03\00:20:05.77
political. It is
not scientific; it's not
00:20:05.80\00:20:09.34
biblical; it's political
to get special privileges
00:20:09.37\00:20:13.01
as a legal minority
status. So, we present
00:20:13.04\00:20:16.48
all of this, then
we also take the Word
00:20:16.58\00:20:20.08
of God and say, "Now,
let's look at what God
00:20:20.12\00:20:22.65
has to say about
that statement and this
00:20:22.68\00:20:25.12
statement," so we
really scrutinize the issues
00:20:25.19\00:20:29.06
from that perspective
and we educate the church.
00:20:29.09\00:20:34.63
So many people- it's
amazing how many people
00:20:34.73\00:20:37.13
have bought all of these
lies from the enemy that,
00:20:37.20\00:20:40.97
even in the church, we
always get this question
00:20:41.04\00:20:43.37
in a Q&A period.
"What about those people who
00:20:43.44\00:20:46.61
are just born that
way?" I mean, the church has
00:20:46.71\00:20:50.18
been drinking this
in and has been affected
00:20:50.21\00:20:53.25
mainly because of
not being educated. It's
00:20:53.35\00:20:56.82
not a willful
ignorance; it's just a lack of
00:20:56.85\00:20:59.89
information, so we
deal with these issues, and
00:21:00.06\00:21:03.53
Mike deals with some
specific ones. - It's
00:21:03.63\00:21:06.90
also misinformation,
because what's happening
00:21:06.93\00:21:11.83
is, there's a
concerted effort on the part of
00:21:11.90\00:21:14.54
media to actually
misinform. And also,
00:21:14.64\00:21:19.67
if you... You guys
are coming from a place
00:21:19.74\00:21:23.75
of, "Let's love our
LGBTQ community. Let's
00:21:23.81\00:21:29.42
love them; let's
show them that there is a
00:21:29.48\00:21:32.22
better way-that God
has a better way for
00:21:32.29\00:21:35.02
you." The counterfeit
is, "You were born this way,
00:21:35.09\00:21:44.63
you can't get out of
it..." You cannot even,
00:21:44.70\00:21:48.80
now, call it sin,
because if you identify it as
00:21:48.87\00:21:53.91
sin, you're a homophobic
or a bigot. So, it puts
00:21:53.94\00:22:00.82
you in this box of
being hesitant to share the
00:22:00.85\00:22:05.55
gospel with
someone who's going through
00:22:05.65\00:22:07.82
that, because you
don't want to be misconceived
00:22:07.89\00:22:10.66
as a bigot! - Another
issue is, you hear a lot
00:22:10.73\00:22:17.67
of people say,
"Well, what is your truth?"
00:22:17.73\00:22:20.04
There's only one. There's
only THE truth; you know?
00:22:20.10\00:22:23.24
It's the truth; not
"What is your truth?
00:22:23.30\00:22:25.47
What is my truth?"
The truth is the truth. So
00:22:25.51\00:22:28.48
many people are
operating on feelings
00:22:28.54\00:22:31.11
as opposed to principles
which- we are to stand
00:22:31.15\00:22:34.28
firm on principles
that are found in the Word
00:22:34.35\00:22:36.85
of God. - And we are
to call sin by its right
00:22:36.95\00:22:39.49
name. - That's
right. - We cannot allow
00:22:39.52\00:22:41.39
political correctness
to take a moral issue
00:22:41.46\00:22:43.79
out of the category
of sin! We put it back
00:22:43.83\00:22:47.76
where it belongs.
We do it with love and
00:22:47.76\00:22:49.76
compassion and with
mercy and understanding.
00:22:49.83\00:22:53.27
We've been there, so
we're not talking against
00:22:53.30\00:22:58.11
someone else; we're
dealing where we have
00:22:58.17\00:23:01.28
been, and now, what
we have come to know
00:23:01.34\00:23:04.68
because of our
experience. - And I think that's
00:23:04.75\00:23:07.02
what makes the difference.
I can talk to someone
00:23:07.05\00:23:10.89
who's used drugs. I
could talk till I'm blue
00:23:10.99\00:23:14.56
in the face, but I
have not personally
00:23:14.59\00:23:16.52
had that experience.
I can talk to somebody
00:23:16.59\00:23:19.33
about being on every
diet under the sun; I
00:23:19.39\00:23:22.20
can do that, and I
can relate to that. But
00:23:22.26\00:23:25.70
there are just...
00:23:25.77\00:23:29.17
If you have not
experienced it, you
00:23:30.01\00:23:33.48
can't really address
it like someone who has.
00:23:33.54\00:23:36.85
You guys have come
out from that culture, and
00:23:36.91\00:23:42.08
so no one can say to
you, "Well, you don't
00:23:42.18\00:23:46.09
know what it's like."
No! You've been there,
00:23:46.12\00:23:48.52
and you've been
redeemed- and you want to share
00:23:48.59\00:23:51.36
it with others who
are still there who don't
00:23:51.43\00:23:55.03
know how to get
out. You've gotten out!
00:23:55.10\00:23:57.83
Praise God. - I think
that's what Coming Out
00:23:57.90\00:23:59.73
Ministries really
does offer is because, for
00:23:59.83\00:24:02.90
so long in the
church, they had the truth,
00:24:02.97\00:24:05.44
but they did it with
a sledge hammer. Now,
00:24:05.51\00:24:08.24
the other extreme
is, it's all permissive.
00:24:08.31\00:24:14.32
"Just do whatever
you want," or whatever,
00:24:14.35\00:24:16.25
and it's like, no!
It's not like that, but it's
00:24:16.35\00:24:18.25
not like that,
either. So, we have compassion
00:24:18.32\00:24:21.19
because we've been
there and we've fought
00:24:21.26\00:24:23.06
that fight with Jesus
Christ to come out and
00:24:23.12\00:24:26.03
to understand that.
In the midst of all that
00:24:26.09\00:24:27.96
confusion and chaos,
even coming back into
00:24:28.00\00:24:31.17
a church that will
look at us like a freak
00:24:31.23\00:24:32.90
from Mars- we want to
help people to recognize
00:24:32.97\00:24:36.34
that we need a lot
more compassion in the
00:24:36.40\00:24:39.41
church, but we're
not going to compromise
00:24:39.47\00:24:41.18
the truth in the
process of doing that,
00:24:41.28\00:24:43.14
either. So, now we
find ourselves really in a
00:24:43.24\00:24:45.75
bigger dilemma than
we thought earlier. One
00:24:45.81\00:24:49.12
of the things, also,
that Coming Out Ministries
00:24:49.18\00:24:51.09
has really evolved into
is it's a ministry about
00:24:51.19\00:24:54.89
overcoming sexual
sin. The #1 issue in the
00:24:54.99\00:24:57.89
church is not homosexuality;
it's pornography. We have
00:24:57.93\00:25:01.66
even heterosexual
men and women that are
00:25:01.73\00:25:04.83
coming into the
ministry wanting to help because
00:25:04.90\00:25:06.94
they're
experiencing victory over their
00:25:07.04\00:25:08.67
pornography or sexual
acting out. I was speaking
00:25:08.77\00:25:12.57
to a young woman
in August, and she's a
00:25:12.64\00:25:15.64
youth leader in
her church and talking
00:25:15.71\00:25:17.68
about how she's
addicted to pornography
00:25:17.75\00:25:19.08
and she's
sexually active with other
00:25:19.11\00:25:21.22
people that are in our
youth group, and they're
00:25:21.25\00:25:22.95
in their mid-twenties.
I said, "Wait, don't
00:25:23.02\00:25:24.99
you know what the
Bible says about that?" And
00:25:25.05\00:25:26.76
she says, "Well,
not really, because the
00:25:26.86\00:25:28.42
church isn't
talking about it. The world
00:25:28.49\00:25:30.63
is screaming ed, and
they're telling us one
00:25:30.73\00:25:32.89
thing and the church
doesn't say anything,
00:25:32.96\00:25:34.60
so we basically think
that it's okay!" So, we
00:25:34.66\00:25:37.43
have a lot of education
to do in the church-not
00:25:37.53\00:25:40.14
just on the gay
issue, but on the sexuality
00:25:40.20\00:25:42.67
issue. - I think on
all those taboo topics-like
00:25:42.74\00:25:47.04
drugs, sex-everything
needs to be discussed
00:25:47.14\00:25:50.31
because whatever
they're not teaching, you can
00:25:50.41\00:25:53.68
believe- like you
said, the world is being
00:25:53.78\00:25:56.12
loud. They're
bold, and they're putting
00:25:56.18\00:25:58.22
it right in your
face, so it's our job to
00:25:58.29\00:26:01.39
educate. - This is why
the term 'coming out' is
00:26:01.49\00:26:04.83
taking on such a
broader meaning, because it's
00:26:04.93\00:26:07.60
not just coming out
gay or LGBT or pornography
00:26:07.73\00:26:11.97
and masturbation and
sexual sin; it's about
00:26:12.03\00:26:15.54
coming out of
addictions of many kinds-coming
00:26:15.60\00:26:19.54
out of the addiction
of sin itself. So, we
00:26:19.61\00:26:23.38
have found that
it's taking on a much
00:26:23.45\00:26:26.72
broader focus than
we had imagined, and our
00:26:26.75\00:26:31.99
third prong... -
Wait, wait, wait, before you
00:26:32.05\00:26:34.92
go there- I wanted to
add I found this quote
00:26:34.96\00:26:38.19
from Ellen White in
Testimonies on Sexual
00:26:38.26\00:26:41.20
Behavior, Adultery,
and Divorce, and she
00:26:41.26\00:26:43.16
said- she calls it
"Satan's repetitious
00:26:43.26\00:26:46.40
plot." What she talked
about is how the Israelites
00:26:46.47\00:26:49.34
were brought down by
sexual sin as they were
00:26:49.40\00:26:52.64
on the banks of
the Canaan land, right?
00:26:52.71\00:26:55.71
She said, "Satan
will do this same thing
00:26:55.78\00:26:57.85
with all his
strength when the heavenly"-
00:26:57.95\00:27:00.68
what did it say-
"when the Israelites of our
00:27:00.75\00:27:04.35
day our standing on
the heavenly banks of the
00:27:04.42\00:27:07.29
Canaan land." So right
there, Ellen White makes
00:27:07.39\00:27:09.49
it very plain that the
same issues that brought
00:27:09.56\00:27:12.09
down the
Israelites are the same issues
00:27:12.16\00:27:13.96
today. We know that
by handheld devices and
00:27:14.00\00:27:16.87
iPads and computers
that our leadership,
00:27:16.90\00:27:20.44
our men and women,
are being destroyed
00:27:20.47\00:27:22.97
out of the sexual
sin, and yet could that be
00:27:23.04\00:27:25.47
part of the Laodicea
that we struggle with
00:27:25.54\00:27:27.78
because nobody's
talking about it? - Right. You
00:27:27.84\00:27:30.85
know how on Dare to
Dream, we are always
00:27:30.88\00:27:33.08
trying to be
cutting edge and all that,
00:27:33.15\00:27:36.15
and we have a new
program coming out called,
00:27:36.22\00:27:38.75
"Exposing the Hidden
Agenda." Raynond King,
00:27:38.82\00:27:41.72
who you guys know very
well, he's hosting that.
00:27:41.79\00:27:45.03
He said-and this is
so true-"Sexual activity
00:27:45.09\00:27:50.23
is probably at the top
of Satan's list whether
00:27:50.33\00:27:55.60
it's heterosexual
promiscuity, whether
00:27:55.67\00:27:58.17
it's homosexual, whether
it's bisexual... Whatever
00:27:58.24\00:28:00.41
it is! Sexual
activity, that, outside of God's
00:28:00.51\00:28:04.41
will, outside of
marriage, that is Satan's
00:28:04.48\00:28:07.15
#1 way to ensnare
people these days. It's been
00:28:07.25\00:28:12.45
going on since time
and memorial, but that is
00:28:12.55\00:28:15.66
what's happening, and
I think we have to really
00:28:15.69\00:28:17.79
look at: it's all
about redemption from sin.
00:28:17.83\00:28:22.73
No matter what the
sin is, it's all about
00:28:22.83\00:28:26.40
redemption! And
that's what you guys teach
00:28:26.47\00:28:29.77
through Coming Out
Ministries. That's one
00:28:29.84\00:28:31.94
of the things I
love about what you do,
00:28:32.04\00:28:34.38
because anybody
can come to one of your
00:28:34.48\00:28:36.95
sessions and get equipped
to be delivered from sin,
00:28:36.98\00:28:43.89
because you will give
them the tools. That's
00:28:43.99\00:28:46.62
what people don't
have. They don't have the
00:28:46.76\00:28:49.26
tools. What's been
the reaction to Coming
00:28:49.32\00:28:52.96
Out Ministries from
the church, for example?
00:28:53.06\00:28:56.26
- You mentioned a
word before we go there-
00:28:56.33\00:28:58.50
you mentioned the word
'equip.' I also want to
00:28:58.57\00:29:02.20
say, Jesus Himself
said that, in Luke 17, "As
00:29:02.27\00:29:06.27
it was in the days of
Lot, so shall it be when
00:29:06.34\00:29:09.18
the Son of man shall be
revealed." So this issue...
00:29:09.24\00:29:11.45
...it is a
last-day phenomenon-a global
00:29:11.55\00:29:15.98
issue; but you mentioned
'equip.' That's the third
00:29:16.05\00:29:19.25
prong of our approach
is to equip the church
00:29:19.35\00:29:22.89
for better service,
with not just this issue,
00:29:22.96\00:29:26.06
but addictive
issues, period. We both grew
00:29:26.13\00:29:28.70
up in a church that
was not talking about these
00:29:28.76\00:29:31.00
issues. There were
no resources; there was
00:29:31.07\00:29:35.14
no one we felt we
could trust to talk to.
00:29:35.20\00:29:37.31
It was 18 years
ago that someone from
00:29:37.41\00:29:42.01
The Review came to me
and said, "Ron, we need
00:29:42.08\00:29:44.28
a resource on this
issue. Would you write
00:29:44.35\00:29:47.15
your story?" So, that's
where, I guess, we began
00:29:47.25\00:29:51.99
creating resources.
It's amazing to me, and
00:29:52.02\00:29:56.12
amazing to us that
God is using us, of all
00:29:56.22\00:29:59.83
people, to create the
very resources that we
00:29:59.89\00:30:03.97
desperately needed
in our youth. So, we now
00:30:04.03\00:30:07.40
have books, thanks to
3ABN and Dare to Dream-
00:30:07.50\00:30:14.51
you know, your networks.
We have a lot of television
00:30:14.58\00:30:17.55
programs on DVDs
that people are using. We
00:30:17.61\00:30:21.75
have lots of DVDs
and pocket tracts and,
00:30:21.82\00:30:24.19
like I said, books. And
our film, our documentary
00:30:24.29\00:30:30.39
which you have aired
here. So, we're excited
00:30:30.43\00:30:33.40
that the Lord is
using our ministry to create
00:30:33.46\00:30:36.83
the very resources that
we ourselves desperately
00:30:36.90\00:30:40.20
needed, but we
didn't have the experience
00:30:40.27\00:30:42.67
back then. Now, we have
not only theology through
00:30:42.74\00:30:45.31
our training and our
denomination and Bible
00:30:45.37\00:30:49.21
study, but we have our
experience to add to it.
00:30:49.28\00:30:52.15
It makes a very
powerful resource. - Absolutely.
00:30:52.21\00:30:55.55
- And I
interrupted your question; I'm
00:30:55.65\00:30:57.02
sorry. - No, no, no!
That's okay! Well, you wanted
00:30:57.05\00:30:58.99
to finish the 3... - I
wanted to do the 3-pronged...
00:30:59.12\00:31:00.76
- That's really important-
those 3 prongs. - So, while
00:31:00.79\00:31:04.13
we're on that third
prong still, I just want
00:31:04.23\00:31:06.09
to mention, Yvonne, I
remember that day when
00:31:06.16\00:31:08.46
you had actually
interviewed the founding members
00:31:08.53\00:31:10.93
of Coming Out Ministries,
and that was at least
00:31:10.97\00:31:12.90
7 years ago. We had
prayed and we had done
00:31:12.93\00:31:15.80
our testimonies and
you were very gracious,
00:31:15.87\00:31:17.97
and as we were
closing in prayer, you stepped
00:31:18.01\00:31:19.64
forward and you said,
"Wait a minute. I believe
00:31:19.71\00:31:22.38
that the Holy Spirit
says that there's more
00:31:22.41\00:31:25.45
on this topic to
share," and that was when you
00:31:25.51\00:31:27.58
invited us back and
we did a whole series.
00:31:27.62\00:31:30.35
- You did two seasons.
- Yeah- over 50 programs!
00:31:30.45\00:31:34.16
- And those programs
still help many individuals.
00:31:34.22\00:31:37.49
We carry them on
our website and we go to
00:31:37.59\00:31:40.16
different trade
shows, and they've helped a
00:31:40.20\00:31:42.36
lot of people. -
Praise the Lord. And they're
00:31:42.43\00:31:44.40
on our YouTube channel!
- Yes. - Pure Choices is
00:31:44.47\00:31:47.60
on our YouTube
channel, so people can watch
00:31:47.67\00:31:51.21
and get equipped to
deal with these situations.
00:31:51.27\00:31:55.11
So, we are so
thankful that you guys stepped
00:31:55.18\00:31:57.85
up to the plate and
knocked out all of those
00:31:57.95\00:31:59.61
programs like boom,
boom, boom, boom, boom.
00:31:59.71\00:32:02.88
What a blessing. - It
really was. - So, what
00:32:02.95\00:32:06.96
has been the- you
come with truth, you come
00:32:06.99\00:32:13.23
with tools, you come
with resources... What has
00:32:13.29\00:32:17.37
been the response to
your ministry? - It's
00:32:17.47\00:32:21.54
been a lot of hot and
a lot of cold. - Okay,
00:32:21.60\00:32:25.07
okay. [laughter]
Tell us about both. - No
00:32:25.14\00:32:29.01
lukewarm in there? -
Not much; not much. From
00:32:29.08\00:32:32.25
one aspect, a lot of
churches are terrified
00:32:32.35\00:32:35.95
about the topic
anyway, then I'm sure that
00:32:36.05\00:32:39.19
they're terrified
that we're going to really
00:32:39.25\00:32:41.09
not do it in an appropriate and
00:32:41.16\00:32:43.69
spiritual sense.
But once they hear us,
00:32:43.79\00:32:46.66
it's miraculous
how, at the end of our
00:32:46.76\00:32:49.86
programs, people
come up and they go, "Oh,
00:32:49.93\00:32:51.93
I wasn't even going
to come," and, "I didn't
00:32:52.00\00:32:54.24
want anything to do
with this thing, and
00:32:54.30\00:32:55.84
now that I've
heard you, I realize that
00:32:55.94\00:32:57.97
it's not at all what
I thought it was," and
00:32:58.07\00:32:59.94
that happens consistently
every place that we go.
00:33:00.08\00:33:02.68
And what's even
more beautiful is to see
00:33:02.74\00:33:05.31
that now, they're on
board, so a lot of times,
00:33:05.45\00:33:07.82
we know that if we can
at least just get them to
00:33:07.88\00:33:10.22
hear us that it makes
a big difference. Then,
00:33:10.29\00:33:13.66
the other side is
that we find that there are
00:33:13.69\00:33:16.59
churches now that have
been exposed to the pro-gay
00:33:16.73\00:33:19.53
theology that's
coming into the churches, so
00:33:19.59\00:33:22.16
without even giving us
an opportunity, they've
00:33:22.23\00:33:24.70
already censored
our material or censored
00:33:24.77\00:33:27.74
or message because
we've been malaligned.
00:33:27.80\00:33:31.71
People have said that
we're conversion therapists.
00:33:31.81\00:33:33.64
None of us have ever
gone through any kind
00:33:33.74\00:33:36.51
of conversion therapy,
and we even make it very
00:33:36.58\00:33:39.88
clear that that's
not who we are, but this
00:33:39.98\00:33:42.12
movement is out there,
communicating this message
00:33:42.18\00:33:44.59
of what we aren't, so
people are just buying
00:33:44.65\00:33:47.52
that. So, it's very
difficult to get into
00:33:47.62\00:33:49.69
those doors. We
just got back from being
00:33:49.76\00:33:53.06
in Europe for a
month, and this speaking
00:33:53.13\00:33:56.26
engagements that we
went to had to be done
00:33:56.33\00:33:58.03
by independent ministries
because the conferences
00:33:58.10\00:34:00.64
were not supportive,
and even the conference
00:34:00.67\00:34:02.54
leaderships were
actually speakers in
00:34:02.60\00:34:04.94
the pro-gay movement
that is in our denomination,
00:34:05.01\00:34:07.61
so they're using what
they call... What is that-
00:34:07.68\00:34:10.68
a service
agreement? - Service request.
00:34:10.75\00:34:13.65
- Service request
to actually censor from
00:34:13.72\00:34:16.32
keeping Coming Out
Ministries, a Bible-based
00:34:16.35\00:34:18.65
ministry, from not
only offering the truth,
00:34:18.69\00:34:21.36
but most importantly,
offering compassion and
00:34:21.42\00:34:24.26
another option-
another way out for people.
00:34:24.33\00:34:26.90
- Yes! There is a
way out that you don't
00:34:27.00\00:34:29.96
have to stay in
darkness. There's this
00:34:30.03\00:34:33.23
resistance of
admitting that it's darkness.
00:34:33.34\00:34:38.14
But it is! It's
like any other sin. It's
00:34:38.21\00:34:40.14
in darkness, and
you guys are trying to
00:34:40.24\00:34:42.98
explain how to come
out in a loving way.
00:34:43.04\00:34:48.02
- And this is something
that really puzzles me,
00:34:48.12\00:34:50.45
because I came
into our denomination-
00:34:50.55\00:34:55.39
I came into our
faith- through the Bible,
00:34:55.49\00:34:57.59
throughout resources,
in the writings of Ellen
00:34:57.63\00:34:59.83
White, Spirit of
Prophecy- and it's amazing to
00:34:59.96\00:35:04.53
me when we find opposition- that
00:35:04.60\00:35:07.34
they're opposing the
very message that brought
00:35:07.37\00:35:10.04
me into the church,
because we're trying
00:35:10.11\00:35:13.04
to present what
brought us into this church
00:35:13.07\00:35:15.98
and into Christ. And to
find that the things that
00:35:16.04\00:35:20.85
worked for us, a community
that's considered to be
00:35:20.92\00:35:23.89
unchangeable and
unreachable, we're
00:35:23.99\00:35:26.35
presenting what
worked, and it happens to be
00:35:26.45\00:35:28.66
our message. When
I say, "our," I'm not
00:35:28.72\00:35:32.23
talking about Mike's
and mine; I'm talking
00:35:32.29\00:35:33.73
about our faith.
Our denominational
00:35:33.80\00:35:35.83
message is opposed by
some of the leaders in
00:35:35.90\00:35:40.90
our own denomination.
It's very puzzling and
00:35:40.97\00:35:43.47
very frustrating. However, we do
00:35:43.57\00:35:46.68
find opposition from
time to time, but there's
00:35:46.78\00:35:50.95
always a silver
lining on these clouds. I
00:35:51.01\00:35:53.78
had a woman come to
me at one of my events,
00:35:53.88\00:35:55.95
and she confessed.
She said, "I opposed your
00:35:56.02\00:35:58.82
coming. I've opposed
it with the board. I've
00:35:58.89\00:36:01.79
sent out emails
to everyone, telling
00:36:01.86\00:36:03.46
people not to come,
but I was curious and
00:36:03.56\00:36:07.56
I came myself," and
she said, "I am so glad I
00:36:07.60\00:36:10.00
came, and I am so
sorry for what I had
00:36:10.07\00:36:12.50
done, because your
message needs to be
00:36:12.60\00:36:15.24
heard." They come
with these misconceptions
00:36:15.30\00:36:18.37
about the
conversion therapy. We're about
00:36:18.47\00:36:21.88
conversion of the
heart, because what
00:36:21.98\00:36:24.25
is left out of
conversion therapy is the divine
00:36:24.28\00:36:28.02
miracle-working power
of God! So, that's what
00:36:28.05\00:36:31.59
we're presenting.
From a human standpoint,
00:36:31.65\00:36:34.16
you may be right.
People cannot change. Well,
00:36:34.26\00:36:36.66
who can? - Right. - It
is a miraculous work of
00:36:36.73\00:36:40.00
the Lord to bring
us out of darkness into
00:36:40.10\00:36:43.16
His marvelous light.
- That's the point, Ron,
00:36:43.20\00:36:45.77
that I think is really
the shock of the pro-gay
00:36:45.87\00:36:51.34
movement that's
within Christianity is that
00:36:51.41\00:36:53.58
what they've done
is they've watered down
00:36:53.68\00:36:55.01
the power of
Jesus Christ. We're not
00:36:55.04\00:36:56.91
talking about
behavior modification and we're
00:36:57.01\00:36:58.68
not talking about
what the world can offer
00:36:58.75\00:37:00.78
you. And you know
what? From their standpoint,
00:37:00.85\00:37:02.52
we'd agree! "That's not
going to work. Conversion
00:37:02.58\00:37:04.85
therapy's not going to
work." And all the other
00:37:04.95\00:37:06.72
modalities that are
out there being offered by
00:37:06.79\00:37:09.42
psychologists or
whatever... We don't
00:37:09.46\00:37:11.26
support that,
either! We're talking about
00:37:11.33\00:37:13.13
divine intervention.
That's something that
00:37:13.19\00:37:15.23
the world can't
offer you. That's something
00:37:15.30\00:37:17.63
that only Jesus
Christ can. And when we
00:37:17.70\00:37:20.27
promote something
other than that, then
00:37:20.34\00:37:23.04
the biggest message
isn't that homosexuality
00:37:23.10\00:37:25.14
is okay by God;
it's the fact that Jesus,
00:37:25.21\00:37:27.91
quite frankly, just
doesn't have the power
00:37:28.01\00:37:29.58
to change you. And
that, I think, is the most
00:37:29.64\00:37:31.95
alarming about the
pro-gay movement in our
00:37:32.01\00:37:33.75
denomination. - You
know, when people say,
00:37:33.82\00:37:35.75
"Oh, Ron, you're just
denying who you really
00:37:35.82\00:37:37.82
are." I said,
"Amen." [laughter] Exactly!
00:37:37.85\00:37:41.99
I am, by nature, a
fallen human being, and Jesus
00:37:42.06\00:37:45.16
says, "Deny
yourself." Of course I'm denying
00:37:45.26\00:37:48.33
myself! We're to
present our body as a living
00:37:48.40\00:37:51.17
sacrifice. We're to be
transformed by the renewing
00:37:51.23\00:37:54.34
of our minds. Of
course we're denying who we
00:37:54.40\00:37:56.07
naturally are, because
as we come to Jesus, we
00:37:56.14\00:38:01.38
become partakers of
divine nature through
00:38:01.41\00:38:04.18
the exceeding great and
precious promises of God.
00:38:04.21\00:38:06.58
Yes, you have to deny
yourself in order to do
00:38:06.68\00:38:10.32
that and to be a new
creature. I mean, why
00:38:10.42\00:38:12.05
hang onto that
fallen being when we're
00:38:12.09\00:38:14.82
invited to be new
creatures in Christ?
00:38:14.89\00:38:17.59
- Because sin is
natural. Just being my natural
00:38:17.66\00:38:20.13
self. And it's interesting
how the church now is
00:38:20.23\00:38:22.63
using the words of
the world to promote the
00:38:22.70\00:38:25.20
worldly theology. -
Well, see, the interesting
00:38:25.30\00:38:28.54
thing is in The
Great Controversy-and I'm
00:38:28.64\00:38:30.71
paraphrasing-Ellen
White says something about,
00:38:30.81\00:38:35.24
you wonder why
we're not experiencing the
00:38:35.34\00:38:37.88
same amount of persecution
that they experienced
00:38:37.98\00:38:40.62
back in the day.
It's because there's so
00:38:40.65\00:38:42.32
much compromise.
There's no need- why persecute
00:38:42.38\00:38:44.95
when you're going
along with some of the things
00:38:45.09\00:38:47.59
of the world when
there's so much compromise? - I
00:38:47.66\00:38:50.43
did want to insert
one thing here because
00:38:50.53\00:38:52.03
we're talking about
opposition: that we have
00:38:52.13\00:38:55.03
learned that, where
the doors close, there
00:38:55.13\00:38:58.27
are more open
ones. Someone told me-and
00:38:58.37\00:39:01.70
I forget who it was-
but it was such a wise
00:39:01.80\00:39:03.30
comment. They said,
"The Lord uses closed
00:39:03.37\00:39:06.84
doors to direct
you in other paths you
00:39:06.94\00:39:09.11
should go." So,
we don't worry about
00:39:09.18\00:39:11.48
doors closing, because
we're booking 12 months
00:39:11.55\00:39:14.78
out. If this
door closes, we have 3
00:39:14.85\00:39:17.22
more invitations while
that one is closed. So,
00:39:17.25\00:39:20.09
why waste our time
where the message is
00:39:20.19\00:39:22.59
going to be
rejected and instead of going
00:39:22.66\00:39:26.36
to where people are
saying, "Please come
00:39:26.46\00:39:28.20
and help"? - Of
course, it breaks our heart
00:39:28.26\00:39:30.67
that any door
shuts, because we think of
00:39:30.70\00:39:32.60
those individuals
that are either going to be
00:39:32.70\00:39:34.50
left to believe a
lie or not have access to
00:39:34.54\00:39:36.91
the truth. But
you're right, Ron. We do. We
00:39:36.94\00:39:39.97
have to move the
energy towards where the
00:39:40.08\00:39:41.71
doors are open. -
And that's a positive
00:39:41.78\00:39:43.55
approach. It keeps us
focused on opportunities
00:39:43.65\00:39:46.51
rather than
rejection. We are very prone...
00:39:46.61\00:39:54.09
People that come
from the gay culture-and
00:39:54.16\00:39:56.19
we can speak authoritatively
on this because we've
00:39:56.26\00:39:58.89
been there-we all
deal with a perception of
00:39:58.96\00:40:02.30
rejection. It's
something we have to cope with
00:40:02.36\00:40:04.97
on a regular basis.
So, we have to choose
00:40:05.03\00:40:08.67
not to feel
rejected when doors close,
00:40:08.70\00:40:12.01
because our natural
inclination is to think,
00:40:12.07\00:40:15.31
"Oh, poor, pitiful
me; I'm being rejected
00:40:15.38\00:40:17.05
again." That's not
it, because the Lord says,
00:40:17.11\00:40:19.51
"No, but look over
here! We have other places
00:40:19.55\00:40:22.42
for you to go." -
Right. Right. There are some
00:40:22.48\00:40:27.82
materials being
circulated now within our church
00:40:27.89\00:40:31.76
that support the
idea that it's okay to be
00:40:31.83\00:40:39.43
gay. And when I say
that, it's not, again-
00:40:39.47\00:40:43.20
because I want to make
sure that I'm understood
00:40:43.27\00:40:46.31
by anybody who's gay
out there. That is your
00:40:46.41\00:40:50.91
struggle. Or if that
is your lifestyle and
00:40:51.01\00:40:54.15
you don't feel
like you're struggling,
00:40:54.25\00:40:55.58
that's where you want
to be, God has a better
00:40:55.62\00:40:59.59
way-and it's all
about love! It's not about
00:40:59.65\00:41:03.26
condemning you,
judging you... God just
00:41:03.36\00:41:06.90
wants to give you
more. He wants to give you a
00:41:07.00\00:41:09.23
better way! And what
I found-and guys, tell
00:41:09.30\00:41:13.44
me if this is a
misperception on my part. When I
00:41:13.50\00:41:19.17
listen to your testimonies,
I've heard that when
00:41:19.27\00:41:22.18
you went into gay
culture-just said,
00:41:22.24\00:41:26.28
"Okay, I'm just going
to live this lifestyle,"
00:41:26.35\00:41:28.65
or whatever-what you
found were other people
00:41:28.72\00:41:31.35
who just loved you
as you were. They loved
00:41:31.42\00:41:34.72
you almost unconditionally.
See, I think that that's
00:41:34.79\00:41:37.89
what we have to do
as a church; let people
00:41:37.96\00:41:40.26
know we love you-but
there is a better way!
00:41:40.36\00:41:44.00
- Amen. - One parent
just mentioned something
00:41:44.10\00:41:47.17
in a text to me a
couple of days ago and just
00:41:47.27\00:41:49.30
said, "I've been
loving my neighbors that are
00:41:49.40\00:41:51.87
gay, and I really
love them, and sometimes,
00:41:51.94\00:41:54.21
I'm exposed to things
that I'm uncomfortable with.
00:41:54.31\00:41:56.68
Isn't there
something more that I should be
00:41:56.78\00:41:59.18
doing?" And I wrote
back and I just basically
00:41:59.25\00:42:01.88
gave her the example
of what my sister did. I
00:42:01.95\00:42:04.49
worked in a hair salon
with my lover and other
00:42:04.52\00:42:06.96
hairdressers that
were gay. And my sister,
00:42:07.06\00:42:09.26
she loved us. Every
single one of us, and
00:42:09.36\00:42:12.49
we said awful
things. We cussed and swore
00:42:12.56\00:42:15.73
around my sister, but
she always had a smile.
00:42:15.80\00:42:18.20
She invited my lovers
and I over for holiday
00:42:18.27\00:42:20.44
meals. I thought
that she accepted me and
00:42:20.54\00:42:22.77
my gay culture-no
doubt about it. Even if I
00:42:22.87\00:42:25.91
misunderstood it, it
still is showing me the
00:42:25.97\00:42:29.21
gospel, because
then, when the Holy Spirit
00:42:29.31\00:42:31.38
did answer her
prayers on my behalf, then it
00:42:31.41\00:42:34.68
was revealed to me
what she had been living all
00:42:34.72\00:42:37.35
along. So, even
when people say, "Well,
00:42:37.39\00:42:39.85
isn't there
something more that I should be
00:42:39.92\00:42:41.42
doing if I'm loving my
gay friends or neighbors
00:42:41.46\00:42:43.89
or relatives?" No!
That's your job. That's
00:42:43.99\00:42:47.20
what we were told to
do, to love our neighbors
00:42:47.23\00:42:49.60
as ourselves. Create
a safety net so that the
00:42:49.66\00:42:51.60
Holy Spirit can do
His work. And again, Ellen
00:42:51.67\00:42:55.20
White says that
prayer moves the arm of
00:42:55.27\00:42:57.04
omnipotence. You
need power that you don't
00:42:57.07\00:43:00.41
have. So, prayer is
not something that's
00:43:00.48\00:43:02.91
like an afterthought;
it should be our first
00:43:02.98\00:43:05.35
priority. And
along with those prayers,
00:43:05.41\00:43:07.32
loving that
individual, and I think, "Wow,
00:43:07.42\00:43:09.65
thank you, God, for
making the gospel so
00:43:09.75\00:43:11.22
easy!" He said, "Love
them and pray for them."
00:43:11.29\00:43:14.66
Right? - You
mentioned the material being
00:43:14.72\00:43:18.83
circulated in our denomination
about love and acceptance.
00:43:18.93\00:43:25.70
I would just want
to put out this warning
00:43:25.77\00:43:28.14
to every Christian
who is looking at this
00:43:28.17\00:43:29.87
program. We can love
people down the broad
00:43:29.97\00:43:33.64
way to destruction.
- Unpack that. - That's
00:43:33.74\00:43:37.21
what I call a 'cheap
love,' like cheap grace.
00:43:37.25\00:43:39.38
That kind of love
is a cop out. It's not
00:43:39.45\00:43:43.75
wanting to deal with
the issues and present
00:43:43.79\00:43:48.16
a saving love. So,
we can love people and
00:43:48.26\00:43:51.96
accept them and
dialogue with them until the
00:43:52.03\00:43:55.86
Lord comes, and we
find we've loved them
00:43:55.93\00:43:58.33
down the wrong
path! But the kind of love
00:43:58.40\00:44:01.17
that Jesus has is a
love that is sometimes
00:44:01.24\00:44:06.78
a tough love. He's a
loving Heavenly Father,
00:44:06.88\00:44:09.38
all scripture is
given by inspiration of God
00:44:09.44\00:44:11.65
and His profitable
doctrine, teaching, for
00:44:11.71\00:44:15.58
reproof, for correction,
for instruction. That's
00:44:15.65\00:44:19.15
not what we're
seeing in this material! And
00:44:19.22\00:44:21.29
the Gospel
Commission says, "We're to teach
00:44:21.36\00:44:23.43
all things,
whatsoever He commanded us."
00:44:23.53\00:44:25.83
And so our approach
is love, unconditional
00:44:25.93\00:44:30.63
love, but
acceptance is into a school of
00:44:30.73\00:44:33.70
discipleship. And in
that school of discipleship,
00:44:33.80\00:44:36.87
people must
surrender. They must follow the
00:44:36.97\00:44:42.24
discipline of
their master. There needs
00:44:42.34\00:44:45.11
to be a surrender of
the will, there needs
00:44:45.21\00:44:48.52
to be a willingness
to be transformed into
00:44:48.62\00:44:51.02
the image of
God, because He is the
00:44:51.09\00:44:54.22
One that really
knows what's best for us,
00:44:54.32\00:44:56.39
anyway. So, our
approach goes beyond this love
00:44:56.46\00:44:59.26
and acceptance and
dialogue that goes into
00:44:59.33\00:45:01.40
discipleship:
mentoring, teaching victory over
00:45:01.50\00:45:07.44
sin, transformation of
the character, becoming
00:45:07.54\00:45:09.40
like Christ. In
other words, we try to love
00:45:09.47\00:45:12.41
people up the
narrow way into life rather
00:45:12.47\00:45:15.74
than down the
broad way to destruction.
00:45:15.81\00:45:17.98
- It's interesting, we
say the same thing, and
00:45:18.08\00:45:20.32
yet the verse that
comes to my mind is Isaiah
00:45:20.42\00:45:22.78
4:1. It talks
about how 7 women take a
00:45:22.85\00:45:26.52
hold of one man and
they say, "We'll wear
00:45:26.62\00:45:28.89
our own clothes
and we'll eat our own
00:45:28.99\00:45:30.63
bread; only give us
your name to save us
00:45:30.73\00:45:33.23
from reproach." And
that's what I see as
00:45:33.26\00:45:36.06
the gay-approving
theology that's going on in
00:45:36.13\00:45:39.70
Christianity. It's
like, we're just going to
00:45:39.77\00:45:42.00
hold onto this love
thing, and we'll discern
00:45:42.07\00:45:45.17
the scriptures the way
we want to. And instead
00:45:45.21\00:45:47.34
of the robe of righteousness,
we'll wear our own
00:45:47.44\00:45:49.38
robes, and only give
us your name. "Christian,"
00:45:49.48\00:45:52.15
right? Here's the
problem with that.
00:45:52.18\00:45:54.45
It's not gay-to-straight;
it's lost-to-saved. By
00:45:54.52\00:45:58.42
hanging onto our
old identities and the
00:45:58.52\00:46:01.89
natural identities
of what we all struggle
00:46:01.96\00:46:05.59
with, or our
natural inclinations, that's
00:46:05.66\00:46:07.46
not saved; that's lost.
That's not love. - That's
00:46:07.66\00:46:12.27
right. That's
good, because it is all
00:46:12.33\00:46:18.07
about being from
lost to saved-for all of
00:46:18.14\00:46:22.44
us! - Jesus came to
save us from our sins, so
00:46:22.51\00:46:27.78
we have to
acknowledge this is a sin issue,
00:46:27.88\00:46:30.69
or there's no redemption.
- That's right. - "Only
00:46:30.79\00:46:32.65
acknowledge your
iniquity," He says,
00:46:32.72\00:46:34.39
"and I will heal
your backsliding." - But
00:46:34.42\00:46:37.69
that's another issue.
In the pro-gay theology,
00:46:37.76\00:46:40.70
it's like those are
words of hate-to call
00:46:40.73\00:46:43.57
homosexuality a sin.
And again, I think that
00:46:43.63\00:46:46.90
the Christian denomination
is responsible for that
00:46:47.00\00:46:50.07
attitude in the gay
culture, because we've
00:46:50.17\00:46:52.54
separated it out for
so long and just thought
00:46:52.61\00:46:54.38
that homosexuality
was the worst sin of
00:46:54.41\00:46:56.41
all, that we
separated and said, "Well, they
00:46:56.48\00:46:58.78
can't be saved," so
the gay community saw that
00:46:58.81\00:47:00.85
and said, "Well,
great. Then we want equal
00:47:00.95\00:47:02.58
rights and we want
the right to marry." But
00:47:02.65\00:47:04.95
again, putting
sin back in its proper
00:47:05.02\00:47:08.02
place... We are
all sinful, and we all
00:47:08.06\00:47:10.96
have issues that
we're struggling with. Most
00:47:10.99\00:47:13.43
of them are
usually related to sex. So,
00:47:13.46\00:47:16.03
when I look at 1
Corinthians chapter 6 and it
00:47:16.06\00:47:18.20
talks about all the
abominations... Like,
00:47:18.23\00:47:20.24
man. It doesn't
make me any better than
00:47:20.27\00:47:22.20
you, but it doesn't
make you better than
00:47:22.27\00:47:24.11
me. We're all in
this together, so, sorry.
00:47:24.21\00:47:27.74
Same-sex attraction
IS a sin. That's what the
00:47:27.81\00:47:30.58
Bible says, but so
is adultery, so is lust,
00:47:30.65\00:47:33.18
so is all the other
things- - Fornication. - Yes!
00:47:33.25\00:47:35.08
All the other
things that are going on in
00:47:35.15\00:47:36.55
the church, as well. -
We create this hierarchy
00:47:36.62\00:47:38.92
of sins, so, homosexuality...
"Oh, that's the worst
00:47:38.99\00:47:42.29
thing." We don't even
look at lying, gossip,
00:47:42.36\00:47:46.29
and attitudes- covetousness
and all that. So, we're
00:47:46.33\00:47:50.33
not even really
looking at that. You know what
00:47:50.43\00:47:52.67
I mean? We just create
this hierarchy. And the
00:47:52.77\00:47:54.94
bottom line is,
we have to be able to
00:47:54.97\00:47:57.41
call sin what it is
so that- it's like you
00:47:57.47\00:48:00.81
identify the problem
so that you can identify
00:48:00.91\00:48:03.78
the solution. And
Jesus is the solution! - Yep.
00:48:03.88\00:48:07.05
The only solution. -
There are 3 sins we're
00:48:07.15\00:48:09.05
told that are
especially offensive to God-
00:48:09.12\00:48:12.02
homosexuality NOT
included. It's pride,
00:48:12.09\00:48:17.16
selfishness, and
covetousness. I've
00:48:17.19\00:48:21.10
thought about this for
a long time and I realized
00:48:21.16\00:48:23.57
why. These are the
roots of all other sin.
00:48:23.60\00:48:27.44
These are the three
sins that made a devil
00:48:27.54\00:48:30.21
out of Lucifer and
broke the Savior's heart-
00:48:30.24\00:48:35.21
broke God's heart. So,
you'll never kill a tree
00:48:35.28\00:48:38.95
by picking the
fruit; you have to kill the
00:48:39.01\00:48:40.62
roots. Pride, selfishness,
and covetousness are
00:48:40.65\00:48:43.39
sins that are not so
easily detected in someone
00:48:43.49\00:48:46.69
else. Lucifer
appeared to be working FOR
00:48:46.79\00:48:49.89
heaven and working FOR
God while he was leading
00:48:49.96\00:48:52.99
a third of the
angels of heaven into
00:48:53.06\00:48:54.56
apostasy. So, yes.
Those are the three
00:48:54.60\00:48:57.43
especially offensive.
- Wow. You talked about
00:48:57.53\00:49:01.34
your associate
program. Explain that to us
00:49:01.40\00:49:05.61
a bit. - We have
about a dozen now, I think.
00:49:05.71\00:49:09.18
Isn't it about 12
people that have filled out
00:49:09.24\00:49:13.05
applications to become
a part of this ministry,
00:49:13.15\00:49:16.58
so we created an
associate pathway,
00:49:16.62\00:49:19.29
because we don't
want to just bring someone
00:49:19.35\00:49:21.32
in that has a testimony
and they want to speak,
00:49:21.36\00:49:24.09
because we need to make
sure they're well grounded.
00:49:24.16\00:49:26.59
Part of that
pathway has 28 fundamental
00:49:26.73\00:49:35.60
beliefs! They need to
go through that. We also
00:49:35.67\00:49:38.87
like for them to
go through a program-
00:49:38.97\00:49:41.11
maybe like AFCOE
or some Bible worker
00:49:41.18\00:49:43.75
training program where
they learn to do public
00:49:43.78\00:49:46.82
speaking and evangelism
and they're comfortable
00:49:46.85\00:49:48.88
and they're very well
grounded in the gospel.
00:49:48.95\00:49:51.92
There are a number
of other issues that we
00:49:51.99\00:49:55.02
need to make sure
they are very, very clear
00:49:55.09\00:49:58.26
(related to our
focus). So, we have people
00:49:58.33\00:50:03.63
going through
this program, and some
00:50:03.73\00:50:06.10
are very close to
coming on board. We're really
00:50:06.17\00:50:09.50
excited, because
we have people from
00:50:09.57\00:50:11.27
different
countries, different cultures,
00:50:11.34\00:50:13.74
different races,
and different genders...
00:50:13.78\00:50:16.28
'Course, there
are only two genders,
00:50:16.34\00:50:18.05
but I'm... - I'm
glad you clarified that!
00:50:18.11\00:50:20.08
[laughter] - We need
to clarify. Every gender
00:50:20.18\00:50:23.55
is from? So, we're looking at
00:50:23.59\00:50:27.72
a very diverse group
developing- this ministry
00:50:27.76\00:50:32.96
becoming very diverse
and very international.
00:50:33.03\00:50:35.73
- And we believe
that that just defines the
00:50:35.83\00:50:37.43
ministry even better,
because different aspects
00:50:37.53\00:50:40.30
of each person's
testimony brings up
00:50:40.37\00:50:42.44
different aspects of
the greatness of God and
00:50:42.50\00:50:46.21
in the restoration
plan. So, for us, we really
00:50:46.27\00:50:48.94
are thrilled whenever
we get to hear somebody
00:50:49.01\00:50:51.41
else's testimony or
to work with somebody
00:50:51.45\00:50:53.08
who's brand new,
coming into the ministry.
00:50:53.15\00:50:55.72
- And they're not
just from the gay world,
00:50:55.82\00:50:58.75
as you mentioned.
There are straight
00:50:58.82\00:51:01.19
people that have
issues with sexuality and
00:51:01.22\00:51:04.46
so forth. So, we've
got a broad spectrum
00:51:04.56\00:51:08.33
developing. -
That's awesome. I know that
00:51:08.40\00:51:11.77
you are going to
want to invite Coming Out
00:51:11.87\00:51:16.20
Ministries to come
to your church or to
00:51:16.24\00:51:18.21
speak to your organization
just to share what's
00:51:18.27\00:51:21.28
been going on with
them and to share how
00:51:21.38\00:51:25.15
you, too, can
overcome. Again, we're all in
00:51:25.21\00:51:30.05
this boat together;
we're all sinners saved
00:51:30.15\00:51:32.82
by grace and we all
have struggles. If we
00:51:32.89\00:51:37.29
don't, then we're not
living on planet Earth.
00:51:37.39\00:51:39.49
We all have
struggles. Let's take a look at
00:51:39.59\00:51:43.83
how you can get in
touch with our brothers
00:51:43.90\00:51:47.40
here from Coming Out Ministries.
00:51:47.47\00:51:50.54
If you would like to
find out more information
00:51:52.41\00:51:54.21
about Coming Out
Ministries, visit their
00:51:54.31\00:51:56.88
website, ComingOutMinistries.org
where you'll find DVDs,
00:51:56.91\00:52:01.15
books, and tracts.
You'll also find access to
00:52:01.25\00:52:04.89
their special prayer
line. That web address is
00:52:04.95\00:52:08.19
ComingOutMinistries.org.
You may also call them
00:52:08.22\00:52:12.29
at area code (423) 248-5004,
00:52:12.39\00:52:18.47
or area code (870) 504-0173.
00:52:18.57\00:52:25.01
You may also write them
at Coming Out Ministries
00:52:25.07\00:52:28.01
14914 North
Liberty Road, Mount Vernon,
00:52:28.08\00:52:32.71
Ohio 43050.
00:52:32.78\00:52:36.32