Participants:
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY018082A
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00:01 I want to spend my life
00:07 Mending broken people 00:12 I want to spend my life 00:19 Removing pain 00:24 Lord, let my words 00:30 Heal a heart that hurts 00:35 I want to spend my life 00:40 Mending broken people 00:46 I want to spend my life 00:51 Mending broken people 01:10 Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn, and we welcome you once again 01:13 to 3ABN Today. 01:14 And I'm going to tell you one thing, 01:16 if you have ever wondered 01:18 how Jesus can be God and yet be the Son of God, 01:24 you want to stay tuned for this program. 01:27 I am so excited about the program, 01:30 I'm excited about our special guest. 01:32 And let me go ahead and introduce him to you, 01:34 Ty Gibson. 01:35 Shelley, it's good to be here. 01:37 Oh, Ty. 01:38 Let's see, you are a pastor, 01:40 you are the co-director for Light Bearers Ministry, 01:43 you are an author, you are a speaker, 01:45 you travel around the world, 01:47 but what I appreciate about you is you are someone 01:52 who focuses on our God 01:55 as an intimate relational being. 01:58 And He has taken in you on such an incredible study 02:01 that you're going to share with us. 02:02 Yeah. 02:04 Yeah, I'm on the edge of my seat. 02:05 I am too, I am too. 02:07 And so this is just something that... 02:09 We want to welcome you to this program 02:13 and we'll get to know Ty a little bit more 02:15 if he is new to you, the 3ABN audience who... 02:19 He had been with us for a long time. 02:21 Everybody knows Ty Gibson. 02:23 But we just want to take this opportunity 02:26 to thank you for your love and your prayers 02:29 and your financial support. 02:31 Without you this, Mending Broken People network 02:34 could not do the mission that God has called us to do. 02:38 Let me open with a scripture then we're going to a song. 02:42 I know that you love music. 02:44 I do. 02:45 Hebrews 1:5 is a scripture that's very appropriate 02:49 for this study. 02:50 This is very... This is so good actually. 02:53 And in Hebrews 1:5, it says, "For to which of the angels..." 03:00 The whole first chapter of Hebrews is showing 03:03 how Christ is superior to the angels. 03:06 And then it says, "For to which of the angels did He ever say, 03:11 'You are My Son. 03:13 Today, I have begotten You?' 03:19 And again, 'I will be to Him a Father, 03:21 and He shall be to Me a Son?' 03:24 " If you've ever wondered about that scripture, 03:26 you're going to find out today. 03:28 But before we do, we have someone, 03:33 I think he is fairly new to 3ABN, Ty. 03:36 And his name is Matt Throgmorton. 03:39 He is from our local area, 03:41 and he has such a beautiful voice. 03:44 And I believe he's a director of worship at his church. 03:48 But he is going to sing for us a very familiar tune, 03:53 but it's beautiful, so listen to the words. 03:55 "Jesus loves me." 04:21 Jesus loves me, 04:24 this I know 04:27 For the Bible tells me so 04:33 Little ones to Him belong 04:37 They are weak, but 04:40 He is strong 04:44 Yes, Jesus loves me 05:00 The Bible tells me so 05:10 Jesus loves me, 05:13 He who died 05:16 Heaven's gate to open wide 05:21 He will wash away my sin 05:26 Let His little child come in 05:32 Yes, Jesus loves me 05:49 The Bible tells me so 05:55 Jesus loves me, 05:59 He will stay 06:01 Close beside me, 06:04 all the way 06:07 He's prepared a home for me 06:12 And someday, 06:14 His face I'll see 06:21 Yes, Jesus loves me 06:40 The Bible tells me so 06:51 He loves me so 07:02 Oh, I love that song. Amen. 07:04 That was beautifully sung. Yeah, yeah. 07:06 That's Matt Throgmorton from Marion, Illinois. 07:08 Thank you, Matt. 07:10 Well, if you tuned in just a moment late, 07:12 I'm trying not to clap my hands and act giddy, 07:16 but I am so excited about what we will discuss this hour, 07:22 and our special guest is Ty Gibson. 07:24 Ty, thank you so much. 07:25 Oh, it's good to be here. 07:27 It really is. 07:28 It's always good to have you here. 07:29 Let me... 07:31 You know, I failed to mention, 07:32 most people know you 07:33 because you are on one of our top five programs 07:37 "Table Talk" where the Light Bearers, 07:40 you guys sit around and... 07:42 David, Jeffrey, James, and myself, yeah, yeah. 07:44 That is wonderful and we love that program. 07:46 I think the reason why people love that program so much 07:50 is because they feel like they're engaged 07:53 in the process of study and they are in fact, 07:56 I mean, they can sit there with us, 07:57 open their Bibles. 07:58 And it's not just somebody preaching, 08:00 they're being invited, 08:02 you know, in a sense to sit around the table 08:04 and to discuss scripture, 08:06 and it really emphasizes 08:09 the priesthood of all believers. 08:10 And so I think that's why people respond. 08:12 Amen. Yeah. 08:13 And I like that you all do, 08:15 it's something like when we do Family Worship, 08:17 it's unvarnished. 08:19 Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're just after... 08:20 Yeah, there is no script. 08:21 Yeah, and I like that. 08:23 Before we begin on this teaching, 08:25 just take a few minutes, 08:26 give us the Reader's Digest version of your history. 08:31 Did you grow up in a Christian family? 08:34 Well, the fact is, Shelley, 08:36 that I had no Christian background whatsoever. 08:40 The short version is I was raised in a very secular 08:43 home in Southern California, 08:45 and there was just a lot of pain, 08:47 lot of suffering, won't go into the details, 08:49 but there was abuse, there was drug addiction, 08:53 the home was defined by pain. 08:57 I mean, seriously, if somebody would have said to me as a kid 08:59 or even as a teenager, you know, "Define life. 09:04 What is life?" I would have just said pain. 09:06 That was the definition of life for me, 09:10 and I think everybody in the home. 09:12 And there was no spiritual orientation whatsoever, 09:18 I had never heard of the Ten Commandments, 09:20 for example, I had never heard of the book of Genesis, 09:23 I had never opened the Bible. 09:25 I had heard, you know, the words of the Bible 09:28 when I knew there was some book that people considered to be, 09:32 you know, from God in some sense 09:33 but completely secular. 09:35 But the thing for me was that all of that pain 09:40 in the concrete evil 09:42 that I witnessed growing up created in me a sense 09:47 that there had to be something by contrast to that. 09:50 I mean, how would I know 09:52 this is wrong if there wasn't something right? 09:55 That's good. You see what I'm saying? 09:56 How would I know this is ugly 09:58 unless I could sense on some level, 10:01 and I was sensing on some level, 10:03 that there must be something beautiful 10:04 by contrast? 10:06 So I had this deep hunger for beauty and justice, 10:10 and just for things to be right in the world 10:13 and in my home as a kid. 10:17 And it was that hunger inside of me 10:20 that at the opportunity in time, 10:22 when my mind was just primed to see things 10:27 in a different light through a series of providential events 10:31 and two ladies, my mom and my girlfriend, 10:35 Jesus was introduced to me 10:37 in a very practical powerful way. 10:40 And I realized for the first time in my life, 10:42 I was 18 years old, I realized that not only does God exist, 10:46 which was revolutionary enough for me, 10:50 just to accept that there is such a thing as God, 10:55 that was a big step. 10:56 But the real epiphany was, 10:59 not only does God exist but God is love 11:03 in the most extreme and beautiful sense 11:06 that the human mind can imagine. 11:07 So everything that I longed for of justice and beauty and... 11:11 Harmony. 11:12 And the things to be right 11:14 wasn't just a concept or an idea, 11:17 it was embodied in a person, in a personal God. 11:22 And I crossed the line and opened myself up and said, 11:26 "Okay, I believe You exist, 11:28 I believe that You are intrinsically good." 11:31 So I just embarked on a journey, I said, 11:35 "Teach me whatever it is that I need to know about You." 11:38 And so I've spent my entire adult life 11:42 basically being guided through a process 11:46 of getting to know the personhood of God, 11:50 the way God thinks, the way God feels, 11:52 the way God behaves, 11:54 the relational patterns that God moves through. 11:57 That's what I refer to as the character of God. 12:00 Character of God is shorthand for thoughts, feelings, 12:05 and behavioral patterns of God. 12:06 Yes. Yes. 12:07 Who is God? 12:09 And I've spent my whole adult life 12:11 getting to know God 12:12 from that particular perspective. 12:15 And shortly thereafter, after my, 12:19 you know, what we sometimes refer to as "conversion", 12:23 my absolute radical transformation 12:26 from one kind of person 12:28 to another kind of person overnight, 12:31 began sharing my faith with friends 12:34 and just people I knew. 12:37 And that launched Light Bearers Ministry. 12:39 And actually have a history, at that point, 12:40 it intersects with 3ABN 12:42 because the ministry that my wife, Sue, and I 12:46 as teenagers and our friend James Rafferty... 12:52 The ministry that we launched 12:53 back then was launching at the same time 12:56 that 3ABN was launching. 12:59 Danny had a vision for 3ABN 13:04 that was formed in him by the Holy Spirit, 13:08 and we were some of the first people 13:09 who came and started doing programs. 13:10 We were ridiculously young. 13:14 I had a big giant beard and I mean... 13:17 We were kids. 13:19 I had a beard, by the way, 13:20 just to prove that I was old enough 13:23 to be on the program and talk, 13:25 you know, and then we got mail from 3ABN viewers, 13:28 "Shave that thing off, 13:29 you look like the criminal element," 13:31 you know, stuff like that. 13:32 So then I shaved. 13:34 I've seen some of the pictures. 13:35 Yeah. 13:36 So anyways, there is a history that intersects with, 13:38 you know, 3ABN's beginnings 13:41 and the beginnings of the ministry 13:42 that I have represented 13:44 my whole adult life pretty much, 13:45 Light Bearers, and so, yeah. 13:47 And basically what does... 13:49 I know that you and James and others, David, 13:52 you have a training school to train people for evangelist... 13:55 Yeah. 13:56 Yeah, we run a discipleship program that people 13:58 can actually come and live with us. 13:59 I mean, not right in our, 14:01 you know, living room and bedrooms, 14:04 we live in the same area and we have a dorm 14:06 and people come and they live with us for three months. 14:09 And we do it twice a year. 14:11 And we move through the whole Bible, 14:13 Genesis to Revelation in three months. 14:14 Oh, wow. 14:16 And we do community outreach 14:17 and evangelism in the community, 14:19 it's a discipleship program, 14:21 and it's absolutely transforming 14:23 for the people who come. 14:25 And it happens every year, twice a year, 14:27 once in the US and once in Australia. 14:30 And we travel back and forth and teach it. 14:33 That's called ARISE. 14:35 That's our discipleship program. 14:37 And then also in addition 14:39 to running a discipleship program, 14:42 Light Bearers also is a publishing ministry, 14:45 we publish evangelistic literature 14:46 in like 40 languages. 14:49 And it shipped free of charge all over the world as a gift 14:53 to the church for evangelism. 14:57 And then we do a lot of media production 15:00 as 3ABN does and our programs are actually aired on 3ABN. 15:04 And we do Table Talk and other programs, 15:06 so that's what it is. 15:07 And then I do a lot of writing. 15:09 I'm actually more of a writer than anything else. 15:12 I preach, and I teach, 15:15 but that arises out of my passion for research, 15:20 and study, and writing, so. 15:21 You know, I just want you... 15:22 because I'm afraid I'll forget, you... 15:26 The thing I appreciate most about you, your ministry, 15:30 is you are always pointing to God as an intimate 15:33 and relational being, 15:36 but you have something that you say 15:39 about the three beings, 15:43 the three heavenly beings 15:45 that that is the perfect number for love. 15:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Explain why. 15:49 Well, if you think about it, 15:51 I do this exercise every year with our students 15:54 in the ARISE program. 15:56 One of the first things that I lead them through 15:58 is kind of a mental theological experiment. 16:01 And without giving them any clues or anything, 16:04 I say, you know, "Here's a riddle for you. 16:08 Break up into groups of two or three 16:10 and we'll walk to the river and back. 16:13 But while you're walking, 16:14 I want you to crack this riddle. 16:16 What is the minimal numeric value of love?" 16:20 And they all kind of crossed their eyes 16:22 and looked at each other, 16:23 "Minimum numeric value of love, what does that mean?" 16:26 I said, "That's what you need to figure out." 16:27 What is the minimum number of individuals 16:30 you would have to have in order for perfect love to exist? 16:33 And they begin walking, we get to the river and I say, 16:35 "Okay, what did you discover?" 16:37 And, Shelley, it's amazing, every year, 16:40 it doesn't matter who the group of human beings are, 16:43 everybody comes pretty much to the same conclusion. 16:46 They banter a little bit, they say, "Well, 16:47 it can't be one because love can't exist 16:50 with one individual." 16:52 If you lock yourself in the bathroom for life, 16:54 you'll never experience any love. 16:55 You got to come out of the bathroom 16:57 and have some relationships because love 16:58 by its very nature is relational. 17:01 So then they say, "It can't be one. 17:03 One person can't experience love. 17:05 You have to have at least some other. 17:06 So maybe it's two." 17:08 So they banter about two for a while 17:09 and they say, "Okay, so two, 17:11 you'd have to have at least two in order for love to exist." 17:13 I'm like, "Yeah, okay." 17:15 So... 17:16 And then they say, "But if there is just two, 17:19 then you have an exclusive focus each one on the other. 17:26 But if you enter into a situation 17:28 where a third party enters the picture, 17:31 you have to psychologically adjust to being 17:35 the focus of attention and then to defer attention. 17:40 You're obligated to become selfless." 17:43 You have to actually be content for the one you love 17:47 to actually also love your other friend as well. 17:50 This happens in high school all the time. 17:52 Absolutely. 17:53 Two people are exclusive friends, 17:54 you know, you're best friends, 17:56 and then someone else enters the picture 17:58 and you become threatened or you incorporate 18:01 and you become a more rich, 18:04 relational, dynamic because now not only 18:07 does Shelley love Ty and we're friends, 18:10 but you have somebody else, 18:11 you have JD and I love JD too and you love JD 18:15 and, you know, it's an incredible thing, 18:18 it's a beautiful, relational, 18:19 dynamic on the friendship level. 18:21 A marriage needs to be exclusive with just two. 18:25 But even there, think about it, 18:28 you have two in the way God created the situation 18:30 to operate is two have the procreative ability 18:32 to create a third party. 18:34 And anybody who's ever, 18:36 you know, had children knows that once you have a child, 18:39 you know, you need to be selfless 18:41 because you don't have the exclusive attention anymore 18:45 of your beloved. 18:46 You need to defer attention. 18:49 And so think about that for a minute. 18:50 If God is a relational unit of three, 18:54 Father, Son, and Spirit, 18:57 that epitomizes what perfect love looks like 19:01 because the Father... 19:03 Perfect love being unselfish and other-centered. 19:06 Yeah, so each can focus on the other 19:10 and be focused on by the other and each, 19:13 also, has to defer attention to a third party. 19:16 Yes. 19:17 So it's this beautiful reciprocation, 19:19 it's this... 19:20 out and then to the other and then and it's beautiful, 19:23 it's just... It is. 19:24 So really that bears testimony 19:26 on just a pure mathematical level, 19:29 just the geometry of love. 19:31 Amen. 19:32 Yeah, the geometry of love bears testimony 19:35 to the veracity of scripture. 19:38 Scripture is the only story told in all of human history 19:43 that portrays God as a relational dynamic. 19:46 Every other philosophy and religion 19:48 and myth about "deity" is focusing on the solitude 19:55 of a supreme one that exercises power over all others. 20:01 Whereas the Bible comes along and says, 20:03 you have a supreme three 20:05 who are each focused on the other, 20:07 each one constantly vanishing in their focus on the other. 20:12 But when we say an extreme three, 20:14 we believe that three divine persons equal one prime being. 20:18 Yeah, that's right. 20:20 And because they're of the same essence... 20:25 Yeah, yeah, so it's not polytheism, that is... 20:27 Right. 20:28 We don't believe that the Bible teaches 20:30 that there are many gods, 20:32 we believe the Bible teaches as the Shema of Israel, 20:36 the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 20:38 One. 20:39 Well, the word one there is very interesting. 20:41 In the Hebrew, it means a relational unit, 20:44 it doesn't mean a solitary thing. 20:46 It's a compound unity. Yeah, it's a compound unity. 20:48 That's right. Yes. Yes. 20:50 So it's a beautiful... Again, God is one... 20:53 And Jesus picked up this language 20:55 in the New Testament when he said, 20:57 "My Father and I are one." 20:58 One. 21:00 So there is two but there is one. 21:01 It shows up in the marriage relationship 21:03 of Genesis where it says of Adam and Eve, the two, 21:06 the man and woman shall become one. 21:09 One there doesn't mean a single solitary self, 21:13 it means more than one who are one in character, 21:16 in essence, in purpose, in love. 21:17 Amen. Amen. Well, said. 21:19 Okay, what I would like to do right now, 21:23 Ty has a little trailer. 21:25 He has written a book. 21:27 And this book is called, 21:29 I believe, it's The Sonship of Christ. 21:34 Subtitle. 21:35 And the subtitle is Exploring the Covenant Identity 21:39 of God and Man. 21:41 That's a good subtitle, I hope. 21:42 It's a long one. 21:43 But what happened, right before a camp meeting, 21:50 Ty sent me one day a draft of his manuscript and he said, 21:56 "Could you read this? 21:57 It will only take you five hours." 21:59 Well, I had two days to write a camp meeting sermon 22:01 and I'm thinking, "I don't have time to read this. 22:03 But out of curiosity, I opened it up, 22:06 and I began reading, 22:07 and I didn't stop till I finished. 22:10 What the Lord did was take Ty 22:14 on a Bible study 22:18 in which He unveiled the truth that's in plain sight, 22:23 and once you see it, you can't unsee it. 22:26 And Ty has written a book 22:27 that I appreciate so much first your scholarship, 22:33 but your love for God, 22:35 but I also appreciate your humility in that. 22:37 Before you publish this book, you sent it to seminarians... 22:42 A lot of people, yeah. 22:43 And had a lot of people review this. 22:45 Yeah, theology professors. 22:46 Yeah. 22:48 A lot of prior review to make sure that... 22:51 And everybody's had the same reaction I've had. 22:54 Yeah. 22:55 I mean, I honestly believe this book will go down 22:58 in the annals of church history. 23:01 I believe this book will change Christendom because it answers 23:06 a question that so many people have, 23:09 and that question is if Christ is God, 23:13 how can He also be the Son of God? 23:15 If He is the Son of God, how can He be God? 23:18 And so we'd like to run the book trailer just now 23:21 and then we're going to come back 23:23 and have Ty discuss how God led him 23:27 on this incredible study. 23:34 If you pan out from the world and deliberately observe 23:37 what's going on, 23:39 it becomes immediately evident 23:40 that everything is relational, nothing occurs in isolation, 23:44 life is like one big ripple effect composed 23:47 of a lot of smaller ripple effects. 23:51 Children seek out relationships with one another 23:53 and become friends for life, 23:55 men and women enter into intimate relationships 23:59 that are just the pinnacle of what it means to be human 24:03 and what it means to experience the beauty of life. 24:07 And we all know that the most excruciating thing 24:09 that a human being can ever go through 24:11 is to endure a broken relationship, 24:14 but the fact is we are relational creatures. 24:18 And in my recent journey, 24:21 I've discovered that this is traceable 24:24 to the fact that God is relationship. 24:28 Down through church history, 24:30 a big question has been 24:32 who is God, what is God like. 24:35 The doctrine of the Trinity has emerged 24:37 and some people have pushed back 24:39 on the doctrine of the Trinity 24:41 and have said that it's a pagan doctrine. 24:45 Others have said that Jesus is the Son of God 24:47 and God is the Father, 24:49 so there must be some kind of relationship between them 24:52 in which the Father existed first 24:55 and then the son emerged from the Father. 24:57 So what does the Bible actually mean 25:00 when it refers to Jesus on the one hand as God 25:04 and on the other hand the Son of God? 25:06 It seems like there is a tension 25:07 between these two identities. 25:10 Well, I've decided that this is a subject that is worthy, 25:14 not only of my study, 25:15 but something I want to share with as many people as possible 25:18 out of my own personal journey on the subject. 25:22 So I've written a book that I'm really excited about 25:25 called The Sonship of Christ. 25:27 The subtitle is An Exploration of the Covenant Identity 25:32 of God and Man. 25:34 It's been an exciting journey 25:35 discovering what scripture means 25:37 when it refers to Jesus as the Son of God 25:40 on the one hand, on the other hand 25:42 that He is in fact God. 25:44 I've looked into whether the Trinity 25:46 is a true or false doctrine 25:48 and incredible insights emerged regarding that as well. 25:52 The Sonship of Christ is the book 25:53 that is the result of this study, 25:55 and it's available now. 25:57 And I'm looking forward to sharing it with you. 25:59 I think you're going to be immensely blessed 26:01 by the book. 26:06 You know, Ty and I are just sitting here 26:08 talking as this is running and he told me, 26:10 he did this series on this book 26:14 at the University of Berkeley, on a secular university. 26:18 What was... 26:19 It was exciting, it was exciting just to... 26:21 What was the reaction? 26:22 The students were... 26:23 I mean, they packed the room out 26:25 and they were just eager, 26:28 nobody was offended, 26:29 even though it's a very secular environment 26:31 and Christianity isn't, 26:33 you know, popular, 26:34 you could say, on campus there. 26:35 But they packed the room out 26:37 and they were completely tuned in 26:39 to explore the idea 26:41 that God is a hyper-relational being. 26:45 To them that was beautiful, so yeah. 26:47 It is beautiful. 26:49 Okay, so tell us how God prompted you 26:54 to begin this study. 26:55 Yeah. 26:57 And then kind of give us how it's been... 26:58 I keep teasing everybody telling them 27:00 you're going to tell us. 27:01 Explain it. 27:02 Yeah, well, first of all, 27:04 on the level of what prompted me is... 27:07 As you know, I do a lot of traveling 27:09 and teaching and preaching, 27:10 and about every other place I would go, 27:13 people were asking the same question 27:15 because this is a pretty hot topic 27:17 right now in a lot of circles, 27:20 people are asking the question. 27:21 So is Jesus God in the same sense 27:25 that the Father is God? 27:27 Did Jesus have a point of beginning? 27:29 Did He begin to exist sometime in, 27:33 you know, the ancient past? 27:34 Or did He always exist concurrent with the Father? 27:39 And then the second question connected to that 27:41 is the Holy Spirit. 27:46 A personal being distinct from the Father and the Son. 27:50 Or is the Holy Spirit 27:52 a manifestation of the Father or the Son? 27:57 Just an emanating worship. Yeah, yeah. 27:59 So the real question is, 28:01 is the Trinity a valid doctrine, 28:04 a valid theological concept or is it not? 28:08 So if you really distill it down, 28:11 Shelley, the question that's being asked 28:14 at the most basic level is this, 28:16 when we think of God, 28:18 is God ultimately to be conceived of 28:21 as a solitary self 28:24 or a relational dynamic? 28:26 If you get at the heart of the question, 28:28 that's really what the issue is. 28:31 There are whole denominations that have formed 28:34 around rejecting the trinity and adopting the idea 28:37 that God is a rigid singularity, 28:41 a solitary self, God the Father. 28:43 And then out of God the Father came the Son, Jesus, 28:47 at some point, we don't know the date of course, 28:49 but Jesus emerged from the Father. 28:51 And the Holy Spirit is not a person at all 28:53 but the essence or energy or power 28:56 that is emerging from the Father, so... 28:59 That's what some say. 29:00 Hey, somebody has just tuned in, 29:02 we're not saying but that is what some believe. 29:04 Yeah, yeah. 29:05 So that's a doctrine that has formed whole denominations, 29:07 Jehovah's Witnesses... 29:08 Mormons. 29:09 Mormons, Unitarians, Oneness Pentecostals, 29:11 certain branches of the Church of Christ, 29:13 Church of God Seventh-day until the death of its founder, 29:16 and then they converted to the Trinitarian doctrine 29:19 but... 29:21 And it goes back further than that 29:23 because this was the very subject 29:25 over which the first official historical church council 29:29 was convened, 29:31 the Council of Nicaea, 29:34 and the question was this very question, 29:37 "Who is Jesus? 29:38 Why is He called the Son of God in the New Testament? 29:41 And does that mean He had a point of beginning?" 29:42 So that's what prompted the study. 29:45 People were asking this question. 29:47 Actually, in a grocery store, 29:49 somebody said, "Hey, I see you on television. 29:51 Are you that guy?" I said, "Yeah." 29:53 We started talking. 29:55 "Hey," and that 29:56 was the question they had, right, 29:58 they're in the salsa aisle. 29:59 Yeah. 30:00 They wanted to know 30:02 who is Jesus really and how does... 30:03 So that's how I was prompted to begin writing responses 30:08 to people who were asking. 30:10 But then the theological prompting 30:12 came from viewing scripture through the most helpful lens, 30:19 the most helpful theological lens 30:21 that I'm aware of 30:22 and that is to view scripture as a whole, 30:25 to view scripture as a narrative, 30:27 to view scripture as a unit, 30:30 as something being said from Genesis to Revelation 30:32 rather than the individual parts. 30:35 So it's the progressive self-revelation of God 30:40 in a narrative. 30:42 Yeah, so to the degree, Shelley, that I am literate 30:45 in the Old Testament story, 30:48 the New Testament will make sense to me. 30:50 Amen. Yeah. 30:51 So somebody asked me, not long ago, 30:53 "Hey, if you could..." I don't know 30:55 where this question came from. 30:56 "Hey, if you could pull one practical joke 30:58 on the church, what would it be? 31:00 Like, you know, snap your fingers 31:01 and do something?" 31:04 I said, immediately, "I would remove 31:05 all the chapter divisions 31:06 and verse divisions in scripture, 31:08 now I put them back later on 31:10 because it is helpful, 31:11 you know, to be able to find where you're at. 31:13 But if we look at scripture as verses, 31:17 we're looking at the bark on the trees. 31:19 There you go. 31:20 Yeah, but if we pan out, see the whole forest, 31:23 then we're looking at the narrative of scripture. 31:26 So here's basically the problem, 31:28 let's set up... 31:29 And by the way, we should insert here 31:30 that it wasn't written 31:32 with chapter and verses, that's something... 31:35 It wasn't. 31:36 This was added like a few 100 years ago, yeah. 31:37 So we need to study the Bible, 31:42 the whole thing, 31:43 read scripture as a whole. 31:45 And if we do, 31:47 we will become aware of its own intent. 31:51 Amen. 31:52 You know, what does the Bible mean 31:54 when it says what it says? 31:55 So when you come to the New Testament... 31:56 Okay, let's set up the problem here. 31:58 The problem, the theological problem 32:00 that we're addressing in this discussion 32:02 and that I'm addressing in the book, 32:03 The Sonship of Christ, 32:05 when you come to the New Testament, 32:07 you read where Jesus is called the firstborn Son of God 32:11 in a few different scriptures. 32:13 Yes. 32:14 You read where He is called in the most famous verse 32:16 of the Bible John 3:16, 32:17 He's called the only begotten Son of God. 32:19 Yes. 32:20 You actually read a passage where He is referred to 32:22 as the beginning of the creation of God 32:24 in the book of Revelation. 32:26 So all of this language 32:28 people have focused in the bark on the tree. 32:32 Okay, John 3:16, it says, 32:34 "He is the only begotten Son of God." 32:37 What's hard to understand about that, 32:39 someone will say. 32:40 If He is the Son, and God is the Father, 32:44 they couldn't be chronologically concurrent. 32:47 The Father must... 32:49 We all know. 32:50 If you have a father and a son, 32:52 the father preceded, 32:53 preceded in time, the son... 32:56 In human relationships, that's how it works. 32:58 I have a son, I existed before my son Jason. 33:01 So people look at the text and say, 33:03 "If He is the Son, 33:05 He couldn't have always existed and He couldn't be God 33:08 in the same sense that the Father is God. 33:11 He must be in some sense," 33:12 like the Jehovah's Witnesses would say, 33:14 "He is a God, but not God." 33:17 See? 33:19 So... 33:20 Or as the Catholics believe in eternal generation 33:23 that He is emanating from God. 33:26 Yeah, perpetually for all... 33:27 Yeah. 33:29 So this is the problem in the New Testament. 33:32 Okay, so people focus on that 33:34 and they draw doctrine 33:36 from looking at the verses in isolation. 33:41 So I began to say to myself, 33:44 "Okay, well, wait a minute though, 33:46 I know that everything else 33:48 I encounter in the New Testament 33:50 has an Old Testament foundation." 33:53 Yes. 33:54 So I began to think, 33:56 "Okay, does this have a grounding 33:57 in the Old Testament?" 33:58 because the fact is, Shelley, I mean, think about this, 34:00 not only does the New Testament 34:01 say that Jesus is the Son of God, 34:03 the firstborn, Son of God, the only begotten Son of God, 34:06 the same New Testament 34:07 says He is in very nature God and equal with God 34:11 in Philippians 2. 34:13 The fullness of the Godhead... 34:14 Yeah, yeah, fullness of the Godhead 34:16 in bodily form... 34:17 Matthew 1:23, 34:20 when Mary gives birth to this baby, 34:22 angel says, "Call Him Emanuel," 34:24 which being interpreted is God with us. 34:26 And 1 Timothy 3:16, 34:29 which you might just, 34:31 you know, compared to John 3:16, 34:33 John 3:16 says that 34:34 He is the only begotten Son of God. 34:36 1 Timothy 3:16 says, 34:38 "Great is the mystery of godliness, 34:41 God was manifested in the flesh." 34:43 Amen. 34:45 So the same New Testament that says 34:46 He is the Son of God 34:48 says He is God, 34:49 in very nature, God. 34:52 So you have a conundrum, you have a problem. 34:55 And generally, 34:56 the way of the debate has gone 34:58 down through church history is, 35:01 people on each side of the debate 35:03 have selected their verses. 35:06 Those who favor the "Trinitarian" view of God 35:09 have said, "Well, it says, He is God." 35:12 So they focus on those, 35:14 and they struggle with the ones 35:16 that don't fit that paradigm, the Son of God text. 35:19 Those who favor the, 35:21 what is sometimes called the non-Trinitarian 35:23 or the anti-Trinitarian view, 35:26 focus on what it says... 35:27 It says He is the firstborn son, 35:29 it says... 35:30 And they struggle to make sense of the God verses 35:32 that say He is in very nature of God. 35:34 And so you end up at what I call a proof text impasse. 35:37 Yes. 35:39 "I've got my verses, you've got your verses, 35:41 let's form denominations over this." 35:42 Yeah. 35:43 "Let's separate over this, 35:45 let's be at theological enmity over this." 35:48 But here's the thing, 35:50 the scriptures synthesize both identities. 35:54 So here's how it works. 35:56 This is the gist of what I discovered in scripture. 36:00 If you pan out from the bark on the tree 36:02 is to look at the whole forest, 36:04 and you see scripture as a whole, 36:07 you discover, Shelley, 36:09 that this Sonship idea is a theme in scripture 36:14 that is initiated 36:15 in the very beginning of the story in Genesis. 36:18 So God creates the first man, his name is Adam, 36:22 He creates the first woman, her name is Eve. 36:27 When Adam and Eve are created, 36:29 they are son and daughter of God 36:33 in a unique sense, in a primary sense, 36:35 in that they didn't have a human mom and dad, right? 36:39 They're the first man, the first woman, 36:41 and then they have the power, 36:43 according to Genesis, of procreation. 36:46 So sons and daughters will come forth 36:48 from this union of Adam and Eve, 36:51 and the scripture says that Adam, 36:53 this is in Genesis, 36:55 Adam will create sons in his image. 36:58 Yes. 37:00 So there is this succession of sons that is set up. 37:03 Well, when you fast forward to the New Testament 37:05 and you see the cohesive 37:07 kind of the connective strands, okay? 37:10 When you come to the New Testament, 37:11 the gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, 37:15 and John tell us who Jesus is 37:18 in the context of that initial story. 37:20 And this is crucial, Shelley, this is crucial. 37:22 In Luke 3:38, I remember... 37:24 Yes. 37:25 Luke 3:38 calls Adam Son of God. 37:27 That's right. 37:29 So you have this genealogy 37:30 where it says so and so 37:32 is the son of so and so, 37:33 and each one is the son of some human father. 37:36 And it goes all the way back, 37:37 you know, Jesse or David, the son of Jesse 37:40 and Jesse, the son of Obadiah, 37:42 and it goes back, back, back, back, back, 37:44 and then it says, Adam the Son of God. 37:47 Yes. 37:48 So this is the origin of the language, 37:51 Son of God. 37:53 Adam is the first Son of God 37:57 in the primary sense that he is the one through whom 38:00 in a genealogical flow of history, 38:03 every other human being 38:05 is going to come forth from him. 38:07 So Jesus is the Son of God in the Adamic sense, 38:11 in the sense that Adam was the Son of God 38:14 because here's how the story flows. 38:16 Adam sins, 38:19 the fall occurs in the Genesis account. 38:21 When Adam sins, when Eve sins, 38:25 God enters the picture in Genesis 3 38:28 and makes a promise. 38:29 It is sometimes called by Bible students, 38:31 by scholars, the first gospel promise, 38:34 and it's a prophecy promise. 38:37 It's in Genesis 3:15 38:39 and God is speaking to the serpent, to Satan, 38:41 in the presence of Adam and Eve who have now fallen, 38:44 and God says to the serpent, 38:46 "I'm going to put enmity or hostility 38:49 between you, Satan, and the woman," 38:52 in this local historical sense, Eve, 38:55 but in the larger eschatological sense, 38:58 the Israel and the church down through history. 39:00 Yes. 39:01 "I'm going to put enmity or hostility 39:03 between you, Satan, and the woman, 39:06 and here's what's going to happen, 39:08 you will bruise his heel and he will crush your head." 39:14 So God now in Genesis 3:15 39:18 has said that there is going to be an offspring, 39:22 there is going to be a seed, 39:24 "I will put enmity between your seed and her seed," 39:30 that is the sons and daughters 39:33 that will come forth from Eve and the church, 39:37 and the sons and daughters 39:38 that will be in a "spiritual sense" 39:40 the progeny of Satan 39:42 and his way of thinking of God and doing life. 39:45 So this is remarkable. 39:47 Here is a promise 39:48 at the beginning of the story of scripture 39:51 that we might call a promise of progeny. 39:54 "Adam and Eve, 39:56 you're going to have a son 39:57 at some point, it's not specified when, 39:59 but you're going to have a son 40:01 who will be the new "Son of God." 40:06 He is going to come through human lineage 40:08 and that's the point. 40:09 So when you come... 40:11 And He'll be the second Adam 40:12 is what Paul calls Him in 1 Corinthians 15. 40:15 And also referring to Him as the second Adam in Romans 5. 40:20 Yeah. You know? 40:21 Adam is the first man 40:24 in the representative sense of the human race. 40:27 He is the prototypical man, "Adam." 40:30 Well, Jesus is the new prototypical man. 40:32 Yes. 40:34 Adam is the first image bearer of God 40:38 who will create or procreate in his image. 40:41 Jesus comes along 40:43 and Paul teaches us 40:44 that Jesus is now the image of God reestablished. 40:48 Amen. 40:49 And out of Him, there will be, what Paul says, many sons, 40:53 many offspring, who like Adam was supposed to do... 40:58 They will bear the image of God. 41:00 And so this is an incredible tapestry. 41:03 It's a story that's unfolding. 41:06 So again, backing up and then moving forward, in Genesis, 41:09 Adam is the son of God, 41:11 Luke informs us 41:13 that Jesus is the Son of God in the Adamic sense, okay? 41:16 So now we have a grounding for the language. 41:20 Well, then as the story of Genesis unfolds, 41:22 the plan of salvation unfolds 41:25 with this idea of primogenitor or firstborn son. 41:30 So God calls Abraham 41:33 because God is going to follow through 41:34 with the Genesis 3:15 promise. 41:38 He said, "I'm going to send a Son, 41:41 an offspring through the human lineage." 41:44 So He establishes a people. 41:46 He says, "Abraham, come out, 41:47 I'm starting a people with you." 41:50 That man Abraham is told by God, 41:55 "I'm going to give you a son 41:57 and your son will be the one 41:59 through whom the promise will be carried forward 42:02 down through history." 42:03 So Abraham and Sarah get all antsy 42:06 because they're getting old 42:07 and they take matters into their own hands, 42:10 and they have Ishmael 42:12 who is technically Abraham's first born. 42:15 First born. 42:17 But God says in so many words in the story, 42:19 that's not the son of promise. 42:23 In Hebrews 11, actually says 42:26 that Abraham when Isaac comes along 42:29 and he goes to sacrifice, and it calls Isaac, 42:33 his only begotten son. 42:36 Yes. There is the language, Shelley. 42:38 Yeah. Yeah. 42:39 So when we come to the New Testament, 42:40 we have to interpret the language 42:42 of the New Testament, 42:43 Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, 42:45 with the source that it comes from. 42:48 So Abraham has Isaac who is technically, 42:53 biologically the second born son 42:54 but he is in fact the only 42:56 or the firstborn son in the covenantal sense. 42:59 'Cause it's a unique covenant. Yeah. 43:01 And then Isaac and Rebecca, they have two sons, 43:06 they have twins, Jacob and Esau, 43:09 well, technically again, 43:11 Esau is the firstborn, 43:14 Jacob is the second born. 43:15 But Jacob becomes the first born 43:19 in the sense that he's the one 43:20 that will carry the promise forward, 43:23 he's the covenantal Son of God, the narrative Son of God. 43:28 So you have the same idea. 43:30 Then as the story unfolds, this is so remarkable, Shelley. 43:35 Jacob has 12 sons, 43:37 his 12 sons then go into Egyptian bondage 43:41 and they reproduce and reproduce and reproduce 43:44 and they become a nation. 43:46 They become a nation, Shelley. 43:49 Jacob's name was changed 43:51 in his wrestling match with the Lord, 43:54 and his name was changed from Jacob to Israel. 43:56 Israel. 43:58 Israel now, this is amazing, 44:01 becomes the corporate name, 44:03 the corporate name of all his sons 44:05 and all their progeny. 44:07 So the nation is now known 44:09 by the name of their father Jacob who is Israel. 44:12 That's how we get the nation of Israel. 44:14 Now this is amazing. 44:16 Israel is in Egyptian bondage, 44:18 now check this out, this is so incredible. 44:20 They're in Egyptian bondage. 44:22 God calls Moses and says, 44:24 "Moses, go to Pharaoh and tell Pharaoh, 44:28 'Let my son go.'" 44:33 Singular. 44:34 Who is His Son? 44:37 The Son of God now 44:39 takes on the corporate identity of Israel. 44:42 This is how the story unfolds. 44:44 So now the Son of God... 44:47 Actually in Exodus, 44:51 God tells Pharaoh through Moses 44:54 that Israel is My begotten son. 44:58 The word begotten is used again. 45:00 It's a unique. Yeah, yeah. 45:02 It's unique. Yeah, yeah. 45:03 So God has a chosen people, they're called Israel, 45:06 and God, says, "I'm your father," 45:08 He says to them. 45:10 Unlike the other nations who have the fathers, 45:14 their fathers or their gods 45:16 are Marduk, and Moloch, 45:18 and Ishtar and Dagon, 45:20 and all these other deities, God says, 45:23 "No, I'm your Father in a unique special sense 45:27 and you're My son." 45:28 And the idea, the concept... 45:31 Shelley, this is amazing. 45:32 The concept, this is so beautiful, 45:35 is that Israel now is God's son in a corporate sense 45:41 as the conduit through which the promise 45:45 is going to be carried down through the ages, 45:47 down through the ages, 45:48 down through the ages through whom, 45:52 the Messiah will be born as the Son of God. 45:57 So it's all connected. 45:59 Jesus is the Son of God in the sense 46:01 that Adam was the Son of God, 46:03 Jesus is the Son of God in the sense 46:05 that Isaac and Jacob and Israel was the Son of God. 46:10 So when the Lord says, 46:12 this is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, 46:15 today I have begotten you... 46:18 Yeah. 46:19 It was... 46:21 Are you saying then and I know you are. 46:22 But I'll try to put it in simple way 46:25 that Christ was always eternal. 46:30 And, you know, Philippians 2:5 through 8, 46:34 it says, "He did not consider equality 46:37 with God to be robbery 46:39 because He was equal with God." 46:41 So He was always eternal, He was always God, 46:46 but when He became the covenant Son, 46:51 the second Adam... 46:52 Man, I love your articulation. 46:54 This is... Yes. 46:55 Okay, so when He became the covenant Son of promise, 46:59 that's when He actually became, 47:03 quote and quote, "the Son of God" 47:05 That's why Hebrews 1 specifies, quoting from the Psalms 47:09 which is a messianic prophecy. 47:11 That's why the book of Hebrews specifies, Shelley, 47:14 "Today, I have begotten you," 47:16 today, at the point of incarnation. 47:19 When you come through the womb of woman 47:22 because that was the promise back in Genesis 3:15, 47:25 to the serpent in the hearing of the woman, 47:28 "I will put enmity between you, Satan, and the woman." 47:32 The woman then becomes the personified channel 47:35 through which Messiah is going to come 47:36 into the world through birth. 47:38 So when Jesus comes into the world, Shelley, 47:41 that's the reference point for the Sonship of Christ. 47:47 So think about it like this. 47:49 Jesus preexisted His incarnation. 47:54 Yes. 47:55 He existed, as according to scripture, 47:58 God is very God. 48:01 "In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, 48:02 the Word was God." 48:04 He was God. 48:05 And as God, 48:07 a great condescension was entered into. 48:12 I mean, the God... 48:13 Shelley, think of this, 48:14 the God of the universe 48:16 loves you by name Shelley, 48:19 loved me by name Ty 48:20 and every member of the human race. 48:23 God literally loved you and me with such a passionate, 48:26 selfless, other-centered love, 48:28 that God condescended to become a member of the human race, 48:33 not temporarily, but eternally He is, 48:36 according to Hebrews, 48:37 our brother in the flesh forever. 48:40 Yes. 48:42 This is a sacrifice of monumental proportions. 48:46 You know, I'm going to tell you, 48:48 I have long said 48:50 that the greatest sacrifice of Christ 48:53 was not on the cross, 48:54 don't misunderstand what I'm saying, 48:56 His greatest sacrifice was, eternal God 48:59 became a human being, 49:01 He took on our humanity. Yeah. 49:03 And a lot of scholars called that the humiliation of Christ 49:07 to think that God would become the second Adam, 49:11 become the covenant Son of promise 49:15 so that He could die in our place is amazing, 49:17 but even though... 49:19 And we're just running out of time, 49:21 but I just have to say this. 49:23 Even though I've been saying similar things 49:26 to what you're saying without putting this altogether, 49:30 when I read Ty's book, 49:32 it's called The Sonship of Christ, 49:35 Exploring the Covenant Identity of God and Man... 49:38 Let me tell you and this is available at Ty... 49:42 TyGibson.com. 49:43 TyGibson.com, okay. 49:46 They can also get it at LightBearers.org. 49:48 Okay. 49:49 They can also get it at Amazon, whatever that it is. 49:52 All right. 49:53 But here is what it did for me, 49:57 and I don't know that I can articulate this. 50:00 I'm anxious to read it again. 50:02 But I remember, 50:04 for weeks after I first read this manuscript, 50:08 when I would pray, 50:11 I had a bigger picture of Jesus Christ, 50:15 even though I've been saying, 50:17 "Okay, He came down, He took on man," 50:19 it was like, you are eternal God. 50:23 I mean, at some point, you could say maybe in heaven, 50:26 Son of God was a title reserved for Him. 50:28 Absolutely. But He wasn't. 50:31 The sayings, by the way, Shelley, 50:32 that He is referred to as the Lamb slain 50:35 from the foundation of the world. 50:36 Of course, we know that He wasn't actually slain 50:39 until AD 31 when He was crucified, 50:41 but He was designated to the role 50:46 before He came to this world. 50:47 All right, so we're almost out of time. 50:49 So here's what I want to do. 50:51 We're going to put up the address roll. 50:53 If you would like to contact Light Bearers... 50:56 but we're going to have, I think, your website, 51:00 TyGibson.com to get this book. 51:06 The Sonship of Christ 51:08 explains why Jesus Christ is called the Son of God. 51:12 To order your copy, 51:13 visit his website LightBearers.org. 51:16 That's LightBearers.org. 51:19 If you would like to invite Ty to speak at your church, 51:22 just call him at 541-988-3333. 51:28 That's 541-988-3333. 51:33 You may also write to Light Bearers, 37457, 51:37 Jasper Lowell Road in Jasper, Oregon, 97438. |
Revised 2018-11-20