I want to spend my life
00:00:01.96\00:00:07.84
Mending broken people
00:00:07.87\00:00:12.84
I want to spend my life
00:00:12.87\00:00:19.05
Removing pain
00:00:19.08\00:00:24.19
Lord, let my words
00:00:24.22\00:00:30.33
Heal a heart that hurts
00:00:30.36\00:00:34.96
I want to spend my life
00:00:35.00\00:00:40.74
Mending broken people
00:00:40.77\00:00:46.17
I want to spend my life
00:00:46.21\00:00:51.68
Mending broken people
00:00:51.71\00:00:55.95
Hello, I'm Shelley Quinn,
and we welcome you once again
00:01:10.87\00:01:13.34
to 3ABN Today.
00:01:13.37\00:01:14.77
And I'm going to
tell you one thing,
00:01:14.80\00:01:16.50
if you have ever wondered
00:01:16.54\00:01:18.77
how Jesus can be God
and yet be the Son of God,
00:01:18.81\00:01:24.05
you want to stay
tuned for this program.
00:01:24.08\00:01:27.65
I am so excited
about the program,
00:01:27.68\00:01:29.98
I'm excited about
our special guest.
00:01:30.02\00:01:32.05
And let me go ahead
and introduce him to you,
00:01:32.09\00:01:34.52
Ty Gibson.
00:01:34.56\00:01:35.89
Shelley, it's good to be here.
00:01:35.92\00:01:37.26
Oh, Ty.
00:01:37.33\00:01:38.66
Let's see, you are a pastor,
00:01:38.69\00:01:40.03
you are the co-director
for Light Bearers Ministry,
00:01:40.06\00:01:43.20
you are an
author, you are a speaker,
00:01:43.23\00:01:45.07
you travel around the world,
00:01:45.10\00:01:47.07
but what I appreciate
about you is you are someone
00:01:47.14\00:01:52.34
who focuses on our God
00:01:52.37\00:01:55.28
as an intimate relational being.
00:01:55.31\00:01:58.01
And He has taken in you
on such an incredible study
00:01:58.05\00:02:01.58
that you're
going to share with us.
00:02:01.62\00:02:02.95
Yeah.
00:02:02.98\00:02:04.32
Yeah, I'm on
the edge of my seat.
00:02:04.35\00:02:05.69
I am too, I am too.
00:02:05.72\00:02:07.36
And so this is
just something that...
00:02:07.39\00:02:09.86
We want to welcome
you to this program
00:02:09.89\00:02:13.40
and we'll get to
know Ty a little bit more
00:02:13.43\00:02:15.26
if he is new to you,
the 3ABN audience who...
00:02:15.30\00:02:19.63
He had been with
us for a long time.
00:02:19.67\00:02:21.87
Everybody knows Ty Gibson.
00:02:21.90\00:02:23.84
But we just want to
take this opportunity
00:02:23.91\00:02:25.97
to thank you for
your love and your prayers
00:02:26.01\00:02:29.41
and your financial support.
00:02:29.44\00:02:31.41
Without you this,
Mending Broken People network
00:02:31.45\00:02:34.45
could not do the mission
that God has called us to do.
00:02:34.48\00:02:38.72
Let me open with a scripture
then we're going to a song.
00:02:38.75\00:02:42.96
I know that you love music.
00:02:42.99\00:02:44.33
I do.
00:02:44.36\00:02:45.69
Hebrews 1:5 is a scripture
that's very appropriate
00:02:45.73\00:02:49.33
for this study.
00:02:49.36\00:02:50.70
This is very...
This is so good actually.
00:02:50.77\00:02:53.84
And in Hebrews 1:5, it says,
"For to which of the angels..."
00:02:53.87\00:03:00.78
The whole first
chapter of Hebrews is showing
00:03:00.81\00:03:03.65
how Christ is
superior to the angels.
00:03:03.68\00:03:06.58
And then it says, "For to which
of the angels did He ever say,
00:03:06.61\00:03:11.69
'You are My Son.
00:03:11.72\00:03:13.79
Today, I have begotten You?'
00:03:13.86\00:03:19.26
And again, 'I will
be to Him a Father,
00:03:19.29\00:03:21.80
and He shall be to Me a Son?'
00:03:21.83\00:03:24.27
" If you've ever
wondered about that scripture,
00:03:24.30\00:03:26.77
you're going to find out today.
00:03:26.84\00:03:28.90
But before we
do, we have someone,
00:03:28.94\00:03:33.68
I think he is
fairly new to 3ABN, Ty.
00:03:33.71\00:03:36.11
And his name is
Matt Throgmorton.
00:03:36.14\00:03:39.28
He is from our local area,
00:03:39.31\00:03:41.62
and he has such
a beautiful voice.
00:03:41.65\00:03:44.62
And I believe he's a director
of worship at his church.
00:03:44.65\00:03:48.22
But he is going to sing
for us a very familiar tune,
00:03:48.26\00:03:53.06
but it's beautiful,
so listen to the words.
00:03:53.09\00:03:55.33
"Jesus loves me."
00:03:55.36\00:03:56.70
Jesus loves me,
00:04:21.32\00:04:24.46
this I know
00:04:24.49\00:04:27.30
For the Bible tells me so
00:04:27.33\00:04:33.10
Little ones to Him belong
00:04:33.13\00:04:37.84
They are weak, but
00:04:37.87\00:04:40.78
He is strong
00:04:40.81\00:04:44.48
Yes, Jesus loves me
00:04:44.51\00:05:00.53
The Bible tells me so
00:05:00.60\00:05:06.47
Jesus loves me,
00:05:10.34\00:05:13.41
He who died
00:05:13.48\00:05:16.34
Heaven's gate to open wide
00:05:16.38\00:05:21.78
He will wash away my sin
00:05:21.82\00:05:26.69
Let His little child come in
00:05:26.76\00:05:32.43
Yes, Jesus loves me
00:05:32.46\00:05:48.98
The Bible tells me so
00:05:49.01\00:05:55.95
Jesus loves me,
00:05:55.98\00:05:59.22
He will stay
00:05:59.25\00:06:01.92
Close beside me,
00:06:01.96\00:06:04.59
all the way
00:06:04.63\00:06:07.63
He's prepared a home for me
00:06:07.66\00:06:12.67
And someday,
00:06:12.70\00:06:14.94
His face I'll see
00:06:14.97\00:06:21.41
Yes, Jesus loves me
00:06:21.44\00:06:37.36
The Bible tells me so
00:06:40.43\00:06:47.44
He loves me so
00:06:51.61\00:06:58.58
Oh, I love that song. Amen.
00:07:02.88\00:07:04.55
That was
beautifully sung. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:04.59\00:07:06.22
That's Matt Throgmorton
from Marion, Illinois.
00:07:06.25\00:07:08.96
Thank you, Matt.
00:07:08.99\00:07:10.33
Well, if you tuned
in just a moment late,
00:07:10.36\00:07:12.86
I'm trying not to clap
my hands and act giddy,
00:07:12.89\00:07:16.26
but I am so excited about
what we will discuss this hour,
00:07:16.30\00:07:22.07
and our special
guest is Ty Gibson.
00:07:22.10\00:07:24.31
Ty, thank you so much.
00:07:24.34\00:07:25.67
Oh, it's good to be here.
00:07:25.71\00:07:27.08
It really is.
00:07:27.11\00:07:28.44
It's always good
to have you here.
00:07:28.48\00:07:29.81
Let me...
00:07:29.84\00:07:31.18
You know, I failed to mention,
00:07:31.21\00:07:32.55
most people know you
00:07:32.58\00:07:33.92
because you are on one
of our top five programs
00:07:33.95\00:07:37.59
"Table Talk"
where the Light Bearers,
00:07:37.62\00:07:40.56
you guys sit around and...
00:07:40.59\00:07:42.19
David, Jeffrey, James,
and myself, yeah, yeah.
00:07:42.22\00:07:44.66
That is wonderful
and we love that program.
00:07:44.69\00:07:46.63
I think the reason why
people love that program so much
00:07:46.70\00:07:50.17
is because they
feel like they're engaged
00:07:50.20\00:07:53.37
in the process of
study and they are in fact,
00:07:53.44\00:07:55.97
I mean, they can
sit there with us,
00:07:56.00\00:07:57.51
open their Bibles.
00:07:57.54\00:07:58.87
And it's not just
somebody preaching,
00:07:58.91\00:08:00.81
they're being invited,
00:08:00.88\00:08:02.54
you know, in a sense
to sit around the table
00:08:02.58\00:08:04.65
and to discuss scripture,
00:08:04.68\00:08:06.65
and it really emphasizes
00:08:06.72\00:08:09.15
the priesthood of all believers.
00:08:09.18\00:08:10.59
And so I think
that's why people respond.
00:08:10.62\00:08:12.32
Amen. Yeah.
00:08:12.35\00:08:13.69
And I like that you all do,
00:08:13.76\00:08:15.16
it's something like
when we do Family Worship,
00:08:15.19\00:08:17.79
it's unvarnished.
00:08:17.83\00:08:19.16
Yeah. Yeah. You
know, we're just after...
00:08:19.19\00:08:20.53
Yeah, there is no script.
00:08:20.60\00:08:21.93
Yeah, and I like that.
00:08:21.96\00:08:23.67
Before we begin
on this teaching,
00:08:23.70\00:08:25.47
just take a few minutes,
00:08:25.50\00:08:26.94
give us the Reader's
Digest version of your history.
00:08:26.97\00:08:31.44
Did you grow up in
a Christian family?
00:08:31.47\00:08:34.94
Well, the fact is, Shelley,
00:08:34.98\00:08:36.54
that I had no
Christian background whatsoever.
00:08:36.58\00:08:40.52
The short version is I
was raised in a very secular
00:08:40.55\00:08:43.39
home in Southern California,
00:08:43.42\00:08:45.15
and there was
just a lot of pain,
00:08:45.19\00:08:47.36
lot of suffering,
won't go into the details,
00:08:47.39\00:08:49.59
but there was abuse,
there was drug addiction,
00:08:49.62\00:08:53.73
the home was defined by pain.
00:08:53.80\00:08:57.27
I mean, seriously, if somebody
would have said to me as a kid
00:08:57.30\00:08:59.90
or even as a teenager,
you know, "Define life.
00:08:59.93\00:09:04.01
What is life?" I
would have just said pain.
00:09:04.04\00:09:06.34
That was the
definition of life for me,
00:09:06.37\00:09:10.15
and I think
everybody in the home.
00:09:10.18\00:09:12.61
And there was no spiritual
orientation whatsoever,
00:09:12.65\00:09:18.09
I had never heard of
the Ten Commandments,
00:09:18.12\00:09:20.36
for example, I had never
heard of the book of Genesis,
00:09:20.39\00:09:23.43
I had never opened the Bible.
00:09:23.46\00:09:25.19
I had heard, you
know, the words of the Bible
00:09:25.23\00:09:28.73
when I knew there was some book
that people considered to be,
00:09:28.76\00:09:32.20
you know, from God in some sense
00:09:32.23\00:09:33.94
but completely secular.
00:09:33.97\00:09:35.77
But the thing for me
was that all of that pain
00:09:35.80\00:09:40.58
in the concrete evil
00:09:40.61\00:09:42.44
that I witnessed
growing up created in me a sense
00:09:42.48\00:09:47.65
that there had to be
something by contrast to that.
00:09:47.68\00:09:50.59
I mean, how would I know
00:09:50.62\00:09:52.35
this is wrong if there
wasn't something right?
00:09:52.39\00:09:55.16
That's good. You
see what I'm saying?
00:09:55.19\00:09:56.66
How would I know this is ugly
00:09:56.73\00:09:58.73
unless I could
sense on some level,
00:09:58.76\00:10:01.33
and I was sensing on some level,
00:10:01.36\00:10:03.23
that there must be
something beautiful
00:10:03.26\00:10:04.73
by contrast?
00:10:04.77\00:10:06.10
So I had this deep
hunger for beauty and justice,
00:10:06.13\00:10:10.04
and just for things
to be right in the world
00:10:10.11\00:10:13.48
and in my home as a kid.
00:10:13.51\00:10:17.05
And it was that
hunger inside of me
00:10:17.08\00:10:20.15
that at the opportunity in time,
00:10:20.22\00:10:22.25
when my mind was
just primed to see things
00:10:22.28\00:10:27.66
in a different light through
a series of providential events
00:10:27.69\00:10:31.76
and two ladies, my
mom and my girlfriend,
00:10:31.79\00:10:35.73
Jesus was introduced to me
00:10:35.76\00:10:37.40
in a very
practical powerful way.
00:10:37.47\00:10:39.97
And I realized for
the first time in my life,
00:10:40.04\00:10:42.14
I was 18 years old, I realized
that not only does God exist,
00:10:42.17\00:10:46.68
which was
revolutionary enough for me,
00:10:46.71\00:10:50.28
just to accept that
there is such a thing as God,
00:10:50.35\00:10:55.32
that was a big step.
00:10:55.35\00:10:56.69
But the real epiphany was,
00:10:56.72\00:10:59.42
not only does God
exist but God is love
00:10:59.45\00:11:03.73
in the most
extreme and beautiful sense
00:11:03.76\00:11:06.16
that the human mind can imagine.
00:11:06.19\00:11:07.60
So everything that I longed
for of justice and beauty and...
00:11:07.63\00:11:11.53
Harmony.
00:11:11.57\00:11:12.90
And the things to be right
00:11:12.93\00:11:14.27
wasn't just a
concept or an idea,
00:11:14.30\00:11:17.41
it was embodied in a
person, in a personal God.
00:11:17.44\00:11:22.24
And I crossed the line
and opened myself up and said,
00:11:22.28\00:11:26.38
"Okay, I believe You exist,
00:11:26.41\00:11:28.62
I believe that You
are intrinsically good."
00:11:28.65\00:11:31.85
So I just embarked
on a journey, I said,
00:11:31.89\00:11:35.19
"Teach me whatever it is
that I need to know about You."
00:11:35.22\00:11:38.93
And so I've spent
my entire adult life
00:11:38.96\00:11:42.63
basically being
guided through a process
00:11:42.66\00:11:46.84
of getting to know
the personhood of God,
00:11:46.87\00:11:50.14
the way God
thinks, the way God feels,
00:11:50.21\00:11:52.54
the way God behaves,
00:11:52.57\00:11:54.08
the relational
patterns that God moves through.
00:11:54.11\00:11:57.05
That's what I refer to
as the character of God.
00:11:57.08\00:12:00.42
Character of God is shorthand
for thoughts, feelings,
00:12:00.45\00:12:05.15
and behavioral patterns of God.
00:12:05.19\00:12:06.59
Yes. Yes.
00:12:06.62\00:12:07.96
Who is God?
00:12:07.99\00:12:09.32
And I've spent
my whole adult life
00:12:09.36\00:12:11.23
getting to know God
00:12:11.26\00:12:12.63
from that
particular perspective.
00:12:12.66\00:12:15.60
And shortly
thereafter, after my,
00:12:15.63\00:12:19.67
you know, what we sometimes
refer to as "conversion",
00:12:19.70\00:12:23.14
my absolute
radical transformation
00:12:23.17\00:12:26.68
from one kind of person
00:12:26.71\00:12:28.31
to another kind
of person overnight,
00:12:28.34\00:12:31.45
began sharing my
faith with friends
00:12:31.48\00:12:34.88
and just people I knew.
00:12:34.92\00:12:37.39
And that launched
Light Bearers Ministry.
00:12:37.42\00:12:39.42
And actually have a
history, at that point,
00:12:39.45\00:12:40.96
it intersects with 3ABN
00:12:40.99\00:12:42.66
because the ministry
that my wife, Sue, and I
00:12:42.69\00:12:45.99
as teenagers and our
friend James Rafferty...
00:12:46.03\00:12:52.10
The ministry that we launched
00:12:52.13\00:12:53.47
back then was
launching at the same time
00:12:53.54\00:12:56.60
that 3ABN was launching.
00:12:56.64\00:12:59.47
Danny had a vision for 3ABN
00:12:59.51\00:13:04.61
that was formed in
him by the Holy Spirit,
00:13:04.65\00:13:07.98
and we were some
of the first people
00:13:08.02\00:13:09.38
who came and
started doing programs.
00:13:09.42\00:13:10.79
We were ridiculously young.
00:13:10.82\00:13:14.39
I had a big giant
beard and I mean...
00:13:14.42\00:13:17.83
We were kids.
00:13:17.86\00:13:19.29
I had a beard, by the way,
00:13:19.33\00:13:20.70
just to prove
that I was old enough
00:13:20.73\00:13:23.16
to be on the program and talk,
00:13:23.20\00:13:25.67
you know, and then we
got mail from 3ABN viewers,
00:13:25.70\00:13:28.24
"Shave that thing off,
00:13:28.27\00:13:29.60
you look like the
criminal element,"
00:13:29.64\00:13:30.97
you know, stuff like that.
00:13:31.01\00:13:32.64
So then I shaved.
00:13:32.67\00:13:34.01
I've seen some of the pictures.
00:13:34.08\00:13:35.41
Yeah.
00:13:35.44\00:13:36.78
So anyways, there is a
history that intersects with,
00:13:36.81\00:13:38.95
you know, 3ABN's beginnings
00:13:38.98\00:13:41.02
and the
beginnings of the ministry
00:13:41.05\00:13:42.38
that I have represented
00:13:42.42\00:13:44.09
my whole adult life pretty much,
00:13:44.12\00:13:45.92
Light Bearers, and so, yeah.
00:13:45.95\00:13:47.72
And basically what does...
00:13:47.76\00:13:49.09
I know that you and
James and others, David,
00:13:49.12\00:13:52.66
you have a training school to
train people for evangelist...
00:13:52.69\00:13:55.40
Yeah.
00:13:55.43\00:13:56.77
Yeah, we run a
discipleship program that people
00:13:56.80\00:13:58.50
can actually
come and live with us.
00:13:58.53\00:13:59.93
I mean, not right in our,
00:13:59.97\00:14:01.94
you know, living
room and bedrooms,
00:14:01.97\00:14:04.14
we live in the same
area and we have a dorm
00:14:04.21\00:14:06.27
and people come and they
live with us for three months.
00:14:06.31\00:14:09.78
And we do it twice a year.
00:14:09.81\00:14:11.41
And we move
through the whole Bible,
00:14:11.45\00:14:13.35
Genesis to
Revelation in three months.
00:14:13.42\00:14:14.95
Oh, wow.
00:14:14.98\00:14:16.32
And we do community outreach
00:14:16.35\00:14:17.69
and evangelism in the community,
00:14:17.72\00:14:19.35
it's a discipleship program,
00:14:19.39\00:14:21.62
and it's absolutely transforming
00:14:21.66\00:14:23.73
for the people who come.
00:14:23.76\00:14:25.13
And it happens
every year, twice a year,
00:14:25.16\00:14:27.63
once in the US
and once in Australia.
00:14:27.66\00:14:30.90
And we travel back
and forth and teach it.
00:14:30.97\00:14:33.20
That's called ARISE.
00:14:33.23\00:14:35.14
That's our discipleship program.
00:14:35.17\00:14:37.11
And then also in addition
00:14:37.14\00:14:39.37
to running a
discipleship program,
00:14:39.41\00:14:42.41
Light Bearers also is
a publishing ministry,
00:14:42.44\00:14:45.21
we publish
evangelistic literature
00:14:45.25\00:14:46.92
in like 40 languages.
00:14:46.95\00:14:49.42
And it shipped free of charge
all over the world as a gift
00:14:49.45\00:14:53.05
to the church for evangelism.
00:14:53.09\00:14:57.03
And then we do a
lot of media production
00:14:57.06\00:15:00.00
as 3ABN does and our programs
are actually aired on 3ABN.
00:15:00.03\00:15:03.97
And we do Table
Talk and other programs,
00:15:04.00\00:15:06.40
so that's what it is.
00:15:06.43\00:15:07.77
And then I do a lot of writing.
00:15:07.80\00:15:09.40
I'm actually more of a
writer than anything else.
00:15:09.44\00:15:12.77
I preach, and I teach,
00:15:12.81\00:15:15.58
but that arises out of
my passion for research,
00:15:15.61\00:15:20.02
and study, and writing, so.
00:15:20.05\00:15:21.38
You know, I just want you...
00:15:21.42\00:15:22.75
because I'm afraid
I'll forget, you...
00:15:22.78\00:15:26.69
The thing I appreciate
most about you, your ministry,
00:15:26.76\00:15:30.36
is you are always
pointing to God as an intimate
00:15:30.43\00:15:33.70
and relational being,
00:15:33.73\00:15:36.03
but you have
something that you say
00:15:36.06\00:15:39.23
about the three beings,
00:15:39.27\00:15:43.91
the three heavenly beings
00:15:43.94\00:15:45.77
that that is the
perfect number for love.
00:15:45.81\00:15:48.34
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Explain why.
00:15:48.38\00:15:49.74
Well, if you think about it,
00:15:49.78\00:15:51.11
I do this exercise
every year with our students
00:15:51.15\00:15:54.75
in the ARISE program.
00:15:54.78\00:15:56.52
One of the first things
that I lead them through
00:15:56.55\00:15:58.15
is kind of a mental
theological experiment.
00:15:58.19\00:16:01.89
And without giving
them any clues or anything,
00:16:01.92\00:16:04.43
I say, you know,
"Here's a riddle for you.
00:16:04.46\00:16:08.90
Break up into
groups of two or three
00:16:08.93\00:16:10.87
and we'll walk to
the river and back.
00:16:10.90\00:16:13.44
But while you're walking,
00:16:13.47\00:16:14.80
I want you to crack this riddle.
00:16:14.84\00:16:16.50
What is the minimal
numeric value of love?"
00:16:16.54\00:16:20.28
And they all kind
of crossed their eyes
00:16:20.31\00:16:22.01
and looked at each other,
00:16:22.04\00:16:23.38
"Minimum numeric value of
love, what does that mean?"
00:16:23.45\00:16:26.15
I said, "That's what
you need to figure out."
00:16:26.18\00:16:27.95
What is the minimum
number of individuals
00:16:27.98\00:16:30.89
you would have to have in
order for perfect love to exist?
00:16:30.92\00:16:33.59
And they begin walking, we
get to the river and I say,
00:16:33.66\00:16:35.89
"Okay, what did you discover?"
00:16:35.92\00:16:37.63
And, Shelley, it's
amazing, every year,
00:16:37.66\00:16:40.20
it doesn't matter who the
group of human beings are,
00:16:40.23\00:16:43.37
everybody comes pretty
much to the same conclusion.
00:16:43.40\00:16:46.20
They banter a little
bit, they say, "Well,
00:16:46.23\00:16:47.77
it can't be one
because love can't exist
00:16:47.80\00:16:50.71
with one individual."
00:16:50.74\00:16:52.07
If you lock yourself
in the bathroom for life,
00:16:52.11\00:16:54.58
you'll never
experience any love.
00:16:54.61\00:16:55.94
You got to come
out of the bathroom
00:16:55.98\00:16:57.35
and have some
relationships because love
00:16:57.38\00:16:58.91
by its very
nature is relational.
00:16:58.95\00:17:01.05
So then they
say, "It can't be one.
00:17:01.08\00:17:03.59
One person
can't experience love.
00:17:03.62\00:17:05.02
You have to have
at least some other.
00:17:05.05\00:17:06.86
So maybe it's two."
00:17:06.89\00:17:08.22
So they banter
about two for a while
00:17:08.26\00:17:09.59
and they say, "Okay, so two,
00:17:09.62\00:17:11.03
you'd have to have at least
two in order for love to exist."
00:17:11.06\00:17:13.90
I'm like, "Yeah, okay."
00:17:13.93\00:17:15.26
So...
00:17:15.30\00:17:16.67
And then they say,
"But if there is just two,
00:17:16.70\00:17:19.93
then you have an exclusive
focus each one on the other.
00:17:19.97\00:17:26.47
But if you
enter into a situation
00:17:26.51\00:17:28.68
where a third
party enters the picture,
00:17:28.71\00:17:31.05
you have to
psychologically adjust to being
00:17:31.08\00:17:35.68
the focus of attention
and then to defer attention.
00:17:35.72\00:17:40.66
You're obligated
to become selfless."
00:17:40.69\00:17:43.19
You have to actually be
content for the one you love
00:17:43.22\00:17:47.60
to actually also love
your other friend as well.
00:17:47.63\00:17:50.67
This happens in
high school all the time.
00:17:50.70\00:17:52.10
Absolutely.
00:17:52.13\00:17:53.47
Two people are
exclusive friends,
00:17:53.54\00:17:54.87
you know, you're best friends,
00:17:54.90\00:17:56.24
and then someone
else enters the picture
00:17:56.27\00:17:58.14
and you become
threatened or you incorporate
00:17:58.17\00:18:01.44
and you become a more rich,
00:18:01.48\00:18:04.05
relational, dynamic
because now not only
00:18:04.08\00:18:07.52
does Shelley love
Ty and we're friends,
00:18:07.55\00:18:10.42
but you have somebody else,
00:18:10.49\00:18:11.82
you have JD and I
love JD too and you love JD
00:18:11.85\00:18:14.99
and, you know, it's
an incredible thing,
00:18:15.02\00:18:18.13
it's a beautiful, relational,
00:18:18.16\00:18:19.63
dynamic on the friendship level.
00:18:19.66\00:18:21.73
A marriage needs to be
exclusive with just two.
00:18:21.76\00:18:25.83
But even there, think about it,
00:18:25.87\00:18:27.97
you have two in the way
God created the situation
00:18:28.00\00:18:30.11
to operate is two have
the procreative ability
00:18:30.14\00:18:32.87
to create a third party.
00:18:32.91\00:18:34.64
And anybody who's ever,
00:18:34.68\00:18:36.01
you know, had children knows
that once you have a child,
00:18:36.04\00:18:39.75
you know, you
need to be selfless
00:18:39.78\00:18:41.85
because you don't have the
exclusive attention anymore
00:18:41.88\00:18:45.29
of your beloved.
00:18:45.32\00:18:46.86
You need to defer attention.
00:18:46.89\00:18:48.99
And so think
about that for a minute.
00:18:49.02\00:18:50.93
If God is a
relational unit of three,
00:18:50.96\00:18:54.63
Father, Son, and Spirit,
00:18:54.66\00:18:57.07
that epitomizes what
perfect love looks like
00:18:57.10\00:19:01.90
because the Father...
00:19:01.94\00:19:03.27
Perfect love being
unselfish and other-centered.
00:19:03.30\00:19:06.68
Yeah, so each can
focus on the other
00:19:06.71\00:19:10.75
and be focused on
by the other and each,
00:19:10.78\00:19:13.35
also, has to defer
attention to a third party.
00:19:13.42\00:19:16.42
Yes.
00:19:16.45\00:19:17.79
So it's this
beautiful reciprocation,
00:19:17.82\00:19:19.42
it's this...
00:19:19.45\00:19:20.79
out and then to the other
and then and it's beautiful,
00:19:20.86\00:19:23.36
it's just... It is.
00:19:23.43\00:19:24.76
So really that bears testimony
00:19:24.79\00:19:26.53
on just a pure
mathematical level,
00:19:26.56\00:19:29.63
just the geometry of love.
00:19:29.66\00:19:31.10
Amen.
00:19:31.13\00:19:32.47
Yeah, the geometry
of love bears testimony
00:19:32.50\00:19:35.34
to the veracity of scripture.
00:19:35.37\00:19:38.24
Scripture is the only story
told in all of human history
00:19:38.27\00:19:43.55
that portrays God as
a relational dynamic.
00:19:43.58\00:19:46.25
Every other
philosophy and religion
00:19:46.28\00:19:48.75
and myth about "deity"
is focusing on the solitude
00:19:48.78\00:19:55.49
of a supreme one that
exercises power over all others.
00:19:55.52\00:20:01.46
Whereas the Bible
comes along and says,
00:20:01.50\00:20:03.20
you have a supreme three
00:20:03.23\00:20:05.47
who are each
focused on the other,
00:20:05.50\00:20:07.37
each one constantly vanishing
in their focus on the other.
00:20:07.44\00:20:12.14
But when we say
an extreme three,
00:20:12.17\00:20:14.54
we believe that three divine
persons equal one prime being.
00:20:14.58\00:20:18.75
Yeah, that's right.
00:20:18.78\00:20:20.55
And because they're
of the same essence...
00:20:20.62\00:20:25.09
Yeah, yeah, so it's
not polytheism, that is...
00:20:25.12\00:20:27.09
Right.
00:20:27.16\00:20:28.49
We don't believe
that the Bible teaches
00:20:28.52\00:20:30.26
that there are many gods,
00:20:30.33\00:20:32.03
we believe the Bible
teaches as the Shema of Israel,
00:20:32.06\00:20:36.03
the Lord our
God, the Lord is one.
00:20:36.06\00:20:38.27
One.
00:20:38.30\00:20:39.63
Well, the word one
there is very interesting.
00:20:39.67\00:20:41.44
In the Hebrew, it
means a relational unit,
00:20:41.47\00:20:44.67
it doesn't mean
a solitary thing.
00:20:44.71\00:20:46.88
It's a compound unity.
Yeah, it's a compound unity.
00:20:46.91\00:20:48.71
That's right. Yes. Yes.
00:20:48.74\00:20:50.08
So it's a beautiful...
Again, God is one...
00:20:50.15\00:20:53.52
And Jesus
picked up this language
00:20:53.55\00:20:55.15
in the New
Testament when he said,
00:20:55.18\00:20:57.39
"My Father and I are one."
00:20:57.42\00:20:58.75
One.
00:20:58.79\00:21:00.16
So there is two
but there is one.
00:21:00.19\00:21:01.52
It shows up in the
marriage relationship
00:21:01.56\00:21:02.99
of Genesis where it says
of Adam and Eve, the two,
00:21:03.02\00:21:06.56
the man and
woman shall become one.
00:21:06.59\00:21:09.46
One there doesn't mean
a single solitary self,
00:21:09.50\00:21:12.97
it means more than one
who are one in character,
00:21:13.00\00:21:16.24
in essence, in purpose, in love.
00:21:16.27\00:21:17.61
Amen. Amen. Well, said.
00:21:17.64\00:21:19.87
Okay, what I would
like to do right now,
00:21:19.91\00:21:23.08
Ty has a little trailer.
00:21:23.11\00:21:25.28
He has written a book.
00:21:25.31\00:21:27.65
And this book is called,
00:21:27.68\00:21:29.78
I believe, it's
The Sonship of Christ.
00:21:29.82\00:21:33.99
Subtitle.
00:21:34.06\00:21:35.39
And the subtitle is
Exploring the Covenant Identity
00:21:35.42\00:21:39.59
of God and Man.
00:21:39.63\00:21:40.96
That's a good subtitle, I hope.
00:21:41.00\00:21:42.43
It's a long one.
00:21:42.46\00:21:43.80
But what happened,
right before a camp meeting,
00:21:43.87\00:21:50.51
Ty sent me one day a draft
of his manuscript and he said,
00:21:50.54\00:21:56.44
"Could you read this?
00:21:56.48\00:21:57.81
It will only
take you five hours."
00:21:57.85\00:21:59.18
Well, I had two days to
write a camp meeting sermon
00:21:59.21\00:22:01.25
and I'm thinking, "I
don't have time to read this.
00:22:01.28\00:22:03.72
But out of
curiosity, I opened it up,
00:22:03.79\00:22:06.42
and I began reading,
00:22:06.45\00:22:07.79
and I didn't
stop till I finished.
00:22:07.82\00:22:10.96
What the Lord did was take Ty
00:22:10.99\00:22:14.93
on a Bible study
00:22:14.96\00:22:18.77
in which He unveiled the
truth that's in plain sight,
00:22:18.80\00:22:23.27
and once you see
it, you can't unsee it.
00:22:23.30\00:22:26.47
And Ty has written a book
00:22:26.51\00:22:27.84
that I appreciate so
much first your scholarship,
00:22:27.88\00:22:33.62
but your love for God,
00:22:33.65\00:22:34.98
but I also appreciate
your humility in that.
00:22:35.02\00:22:37.92
Before you publish this book,
you sent it to seminarians...
00:22:37.95\00:22:42.42
A lot of people, yeah.
00:22:42.46\00:22:43.83
And had a lot of
people review this.
00:22:43.86\00:22:45.19
Yeah, theology professors.
00:22:45.23\00:22:46.63
Yeah.
00:22:46.70\00:22:48.03
A lot of prior
review to make sure that...
00:22:48.06\00:22:51.17
And everybody's had
the same reaction I've had.
00:22:51.20\00:22:54.04
Yeah.
00:22:54.07\00:22:55.40
I mean, I honestly
believe this book will go down
00:22:55.44\00:22:58.64
in the annals of church history.
00:22:58.67\00:23:01.48
I believe this book will change
Christendom because it answers
00:23:01.51\00:23:06.21
a question that
so many people have,
00:23:06.25\00:23:09.12
and that question
is if Christ is God,
00:23:09.15\00:23:13.59
how can He also
be the Son of God?
00:23:13.66\00:23:15.46
If He is the Son of
God, how can He be God?
00:23:15.49\00:23:18.36
And so we'd like to run
the book trailer just now
00:23:18.39\00:23:21.56
and then we're
going to come back
00:23:21.60\00:23:23.50
and have Ty
discuss how God led him
00:23:23.57\00:23:27.04
on this incredible study.
00:23:27.07\00:23:29.14
If you pan out from the
world and deliberately observe
00:23:34.08\00:23:37.65
what's going on,
00:23:37.68\00:23:39.01
it becomes immediately evident
00:23:39.05\00:23:40.38
that everything is relational,
nothing occurs in isolation,
00:23:40.42\00:23:44.89
life is like one big
ripple effect composed
00:23:44.92\00:23:47.86
of a lot of
smaller ripple effects.
00:23:47.89\00:23:51.09
Children seek out
relationships with one another
00:23:51.13\00:23:53.80
and become friends for life,
00:23:53.83\00:23:55.70
men and women enter
into intimate relationships
00:23:55.73\00:23:59.27
that are just the pinnacle
of what it means to be human
00:23:59.30\00:24:03.41
and what it means to
experience the beauty of life.
00:24:03.44\00:24:07.11
And we all know that
the most excruciating thing
00:24:07.18\00:24:09.51
that a human being
can ever go through
00:24:09.54\00:24:11.85
is to endure a
broken relationship,
00:24:11.88\00:24:14.62
but the fact is we
are relational creatures.
00:24:14.65\00:24:18.79
And in my recent journey,
00:24:18.82\00:24:21.29
I've discovered
that this is traceable
00:24:21.32\00:24:24.39
to the fact that
God is relationship.
00:24:24.43\00:24:28.16
Down through church history,
00:24:28.20\00:24:30.77
a big question has been
00:24:30.80\00:24:32.83
who is God, what is God like.
00:24:32.87\00:24:35.24
The doctrine of
the Trinity has emerged
00:24:35.27\00:24:37.94
and some people have pushed back
00:24:37.97\00:24:39.54
on the doctrine of the Trinity
00:24:39.57\00:24:41.31
and have said that
it's a pagan doctrine.
00:24:41.34\00:24:45.08
Others have said that
Jesus is the Son of God
00:24:45.11\00:24:47.65
and God is the Father,
00:24:47.68\00:24:49.15
so there must be some kind
of relationship between them
00:24:49.18\00:24:52.62
in which the
Father existed first
00:24:52.65\00:24:54.99
and then the son
emerged from the Father.
00:24:55.02\00:24:57.79
So what does the
Bible actually mean
00:24:57.83\00:25:00.50
when it refers to
Jesus on the one hand as God
00:25:00.53\00:25:03.97
and on the other
hand the Son of God?
00:25:04.00\00:25:06.03
It seems like there is a tension
00:25:06.07\00:25:07.44
between these two identities.
00:25:07.47\00:25:10.01
Well, I've decided that this
is a subject that is worthy,
00:25:10.04\00:25:14.48
not only of my study,
00:25:14.51\00:25:15.84
but something I want to share
with as many people as possible
00:25:15.88\00:25:18.88
out of my own personal
journey on the subject.
00:25:18.91\00:25:22.35
So I've written a book
that I'm really excited about
00:25:22.38\00:25:25.32
called The Sonship of Christ.
00:25:25.35\00:25:27.29
The subtitle is An Exploration
of the Covenant Identity
00:25:27.36\00:25:32.59
of God and Man.
00:25:32.63\00:25:34.00
It's been an exciting journey
00:25:34.03\00:25:35.66
discovering what scripture means
00:25:35.70\00:25:37.47
when it refers to
Jesus as the Son of God
00:25:37.50\00:25:40.74
on the one hand,
on the other hand
00:25:40.77\00:25:42.27
that He is in fact God.
00:25:42.30\00:25:44.47
I've looked into
whether the Trinity
00:25:44.51\00:25:46.47
is a true or false doctrine
00:25:46.51\00:25:48.18
and incredible insights
emerged regarding that as well.
00:25:48.21\00:25:51.98
The Sonship of
Christ is the book
00:25:52.01\00:25:53.92
that is the
result of this study,
00:25:53.95\00:25:55.92
and it's available now.
00:25:55.95\00:25:57.49
And I'm looking
forward to sharing it with you.
00:25:57.52\00:25:59.35
I think you're going
to be immensely blessed
00:25:59.39\00:26:01.29
by the book.
00:26:01.32\00:26:02.66
You know, Ty and I
are just sitting here
00:26:06.06\00:26:08.23
talking as this is
running and he told me,
00:26:08.26\00:26:10.70
he did this series on this book
00:26:10.77\00:26:14.77
at the University of Berkeley,
on a secular university.
00:26:14.80\00:26:18.34
What was...
00:26:18.37\00:26:19.71
It was exciting, it
was exciting just to...
00:26:19.74\00:26:21.08
What was the reaction?
00:26:21.11\00:26:22.51
The students were...
00:26:22.54\00:26:23.88
I mean, they packed the room out
00:26:23.95\00:26:25.45
and they were just eager,
00:26:25.48\00:26:27.98
nobody was offended,
00:26:28.02\00:26:29.45
even though it's a
very secular environment
00:26:29.48\00:26:31.49
and Christianity isn't,
00:26:31.52\00:26:32.99
you know, popular,
00:26:33.02\00:26:34.36
you could say, on campus there.
00:26:34.39\00:26:35.72
But they packed the room out
00:26:35.76\00:26:37.13
and they were
completely tuned in
00:26:37.16\00:26:39.36
to explore the idea
00:26:39.39\00:26:41.93
that God is a
hyper-relational being.
00:26:41.96\00:26:45.37
To them that was
beautiful, so yeah.
00:26:45.40\00:26:47.77
It is beautiful.
00:26:47.80\00:26:49.14
Okay, so tell us
how God prompted you
00:26:49.17\00:26:54.41
to begin this study.
00:26:54.44\00:26:55.94
Yeah.
00:26:55.98\00:26:57.35
And then kind of
give us how it's been...
00:26:57.38\00:26:58.71
I keep teasing
everybody telling them
00:26:58.75\00:27:00.08
you're going to tell us.
00:27:00.12\00:27:01.45
Explain it.
00:27:01.48\00:27:02.82
Yeah, well, first of all,
00:27:02.85\00:27:04.19
on the level of
what prompted me is...
00:27:04.22\00:27:07.66
As you know, I do
a lot of traveling
00:27:07.69\00:27:09.02
and teaching and preaching,
00:27:09.06\00:27:10.53
and about every
other place I would go,
00:27:10.56\00:27:13.90
people were
asking the same question
00:27:13.93\00:27:15.66
because this is
a pretty hot topic
00:27:15.70\00:27:17.57
right now in a lot of circles,
00:27:17.60\00:27:20.07
people are asking the question.
00:27:20.14\00:27:21.47
So is Jesus God
in the same sense
00:27:21.50\00:27:25.51
that the Father is God?
00:27:25.54\00:27:27.18
Did Jesus have a
point of beginning?
00:27:27.21\00:27:29.38
Did He begin to
exist sometime in,
00:27:29.41\00:27:33.15
you know, the ancient past?
00:27:33.18\00:27:34.68
Or did He always exist
concurrent with the Father?
00:27:34.72\00:27:39.02
And then the second
question connected to that
00:27:39.05\00:27:41.92
is the Holy Spirit.
00:27:41.96\00:27:46.56
A personal being distinct
from the Father and the Son.
00:27:46.59\00:27:50.70
Or is the Holy Spirit
00:27:50.77\00:27:52.67
a manifestation of
the Father or the Son?
00:27:52.70\00:27:57.94
Just an emanating
worship. Yeah, yeah.
00:27:57.97\00:27:59.57
So the real question is,
00:27:59.61\00:28:01.04
is the Trinity a valid doctrine,
00:28:01.08\00:28:04.48
a valid theological
concept or is it not?
00:28:04.51\00:28:08.52
So if you
really distill it down,
00:28:08.55\00:28:11.39
Shelley, the
question that's being asked
00:28:11.42\00:28:14.09
at the most basic level is this,
00:28:14.16\00:28:16.46
when we think of God,
00:28:16.49\00:28:18.43
is God ultimately
to be conceived of
00:28:18.46\00:28:21.10
as a solitary self
00:28:21.13\00:28:24.07
or a relational dynamic?
00:28:24.10\00:28:26.37
If you get at the
heart of the question,
00:28:26.40\00:28:28.37
that's really what the issue is.
00:28:28.40\00:28:31.37
There are whole
denominations that have formed
00:28:31.41\00:28:34.34
around rejecting the
trinity and adopting the idea
00:28:34.38\00:28:37.95
that God is a rigid singularity,
00:28:37.98\00:28:41.22
a solitary self, God the Father.
00:28:41.25\00:28:43.59
And then out of God the
Father came the Son, Jesus,
00:28:43.62\00:28:47.56
at some point, we don't
know the date of course,
00:28:47.59\00:28:49.42
but Jesus
emerged from the Father.
00:28:49.46\00:28:51.76
And the Holy Spirit
is not a person at all
00:28:51.79\00:28:53.40
but the essence
or energy or power
00:28:53.43\00:28:56.26
that is emerging
from the Father, so...
00:28:56.30\00:28:59.27
That's what some say.
00:28:59.30\00:29:00.64
Hey, somebody has just tuned in,
00:29:00.67\00:29:02.00
we're not saying but
that is what some believe.
00:29:02.04\00:29:04.41
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:04.44\00:29:05.77
So that's a doctrine that
has formed whole denominations,
00:29:05.81\00:29:07.18
Jehovah's Witnesses...
00:29:07.21\00:29:08.54
Mormons.
00:29:08.58\00:29:09.91
Mormons, Unitarians,
Oneness Pentecostals,
00:29:09.94\00:29:11.31
certain branches of
the Church of Christ,
00:29:11.35\00:29:13.18
Church of God Seventh-day
until the death of its founder,
00:29:13.21\00:29:16.52
and then they converted
to the Trinitarian doctrine
00:29:16.55\00:29:19.82
but...
00:29:19.85\00:29:21.19
And it goes back
further than that
00:29:21.22\00:29:23.29
because this
was the very subject
00:29:23.32\00:29:25.43
over which the first official
historical church council
00:29:25.46\00:29:29.93
was convened,
00:29:29.96\00:29:31.90
the Council of Nicaea,
00:29:31.93\00:29:34.67
and the question
was this very question,
00:29:34.70\00:29:37.34
"Who is Jesus?
00:29:37.41\00:29:38.74
Why is He called the Son
of God in the New Testament?
00:29:38.77\00:29:41.04
And does that mean He
had a point of beginning?"
00:29:41.08\00:29:42.88
So that's what
prompted the study.
00:29:42.91\00:29:44.98
People were
asking this question.
00:29:45.01\00:29:47.55
Actually, in a grocery store,
00:29:47.62\00:29:49.35
somebody said, "Hey,
I see you on television.
00:29:49.38\00:29:51.72
Are you that
guy?" I said, "Yeah."
00:29:51.75\00:29:53.19
We started talking.
00:29:53.22\00:29:55.26
"Hey," and that
00:29:55.29\00:29:56.62
was the
question they had, right,
00:29:56.66\00:29:57.99
they're in the salsa aisle.
00:29:58.03\00:29:59.36
Yeah.
00:29:59.39\00:30:00.73
They wanted to know
00:30:00.80\00:30:02.13
who is Jesus
really and how does...
00:30:02.16\00:30:03.67
So that's how I was prompted
to begin writing responses
00:30:03.70\00:30:08.84
to people who were asking.
00:30:08.87\00:30:10.21
But then the
theological prompting
00:30:10.24\00:30:12.67
came from viewing scripture
through the most helpful lens,
00:30:12.71\00:30:19.51
the most
helpful theological lens
00:30:19.55\00:30:21.42
that I'm aware of
00:30:21.45\00:30:22.78
and that is to view
scripture as a whole,
00:30:22.82\00:30:25.72
to view
scripture as a narrative,
00:30:25.75\00:30:27.26
to view scripture as a unit,
00:30:27.29\00:30:30.03
as something being said
from Genesis to Revelation
00:30:30.06\00:30:32.76
rather than the
individual parts.
00:30:32.79\00:30:35.83
So it's the progressive
self-revelation of God
00:30:35.86\00:30:40.67
in a narrative.
00:30:40.74\00:30:42.07
Yeah, so to the degree,
Shelley, that I am literate
00:30:42.10\00:30:45.27
in the Old Testament story,
00:30:45.31\00:30:48.14
the New Testament
will make sense to me.
00:30:48.18\00:30:50.28
Amen. Yeah.
00:30:50.35\00:30:51.91
So somebody
asked me, not long ago,
00:30:51.95\00:30:53.92
"Hey, if you
could..." I don't know
00:30:53.95\00:30:55.28
where this question came from.
00:30:55.32\00:30:56.65
"Hey, if you could
pull one practical joke
00:30:56.69\00:30:58.35
on the church, what would it be?
00:30:58.39\00:31:00.46
Like, you know,
snap your fingers
00:31:00.49\00:31:01.89
and do something?"
00:31:01.92\00:31:04.06
I said,
immediately, "I would remove
00:31:04.13\00:31:05.46
all the chapter divisions
00:31:05.49\00:31:06.83
and verse
divisions in scripture,
00:31:06.86\00:31:08.86
now I put them back later on
00:31:08.90\00:31:10.27
because it is helpful,
00:31:10.30\00:31:11.63
you know, to be able
to find where you're at.
00:31:11.67\00:31:13.23
But if we look at
scripture as verses,
00:31:13.27\00:31:17.31
we're looking at
the bark on the trees.
00:31:17.34\00:31:19.24
There you go.
00:31:19.27\00:31:20.61
Yeah, but if we pan
out, see the whole forest,
00:31:20.68\00:31:23.48
then we're looking at
the narrative of scripture.
00:31:23.55\00:31:26.05
So here's basically the problem,
00:31:26.08\00:31:27.98
let's set up...
00:31:28.02\00:31:29.35
And by the way,
we should insert here
00:31:29.38\00:31:30.89
that it wasn't written
00:31:30.92\00:31:32.89
with chapter and
verses, that's something...
00:31:32.92\00:31:35.02
It wasn't.
00:31:35.06\00:31:36.39
This was added like a
few 100 years ago, yeah.
00:31:36.42\00:31:37.76
So we need to study the Bible,
00:31:37.79\00:31:42.43
the whole thing,
00:31:42.46\00:31:43.90
read scripture as a whole.
00:31:43.97\00:31:45.90
And if we do,
00:31:45.93\00:31:47.27
we will become
aware of its own intent.
00:31:47.34\00:31:51.27
Amen.
00:31:51.31\00:31:52.64
You know, what
does the Bible mean
00:31:52.67\00:31:54.01
when it says what it says?
00:31:54.08\00:31:55.41
So when you come to
the New Testament...
00:31:55.44\00:31:56.78
Okay, let's set
up the problem here.
00:31:56.81\00:31:58.55
The problem, the
theological problem
00:31:58.58\00:32:00.52
that we're
addressing in this discussion
00:32:00.55\00:32:02.55
and that I'm
addressing in the book,
00:32:02.58\00:32:03.92
The Sonship of Christ,
00:32:03.99\00:32:05.39
when you come to
the New Testament,
00:32:05.42\00:32:07.56
you read where Jesus is
called the firstborn Son of God
00:32:07.59\00:32:11.73
in a few different scriptures.
00:32:11.76\00:32:13.09
Yes.
00:32:13.13\00:32:14.46
You read where He is
called in the most famous verse
00:32:14.50\00:32:16.03
of the Bible John 3:16,
00:32:16.06\00:32:17.70
He's called the
only begotten Son of God.
00:32:17.73\00:32:19.13
Yes.
00:32:19.17\00:32:20.54
You actually read a
passage where He is referred to
00:32:20.57\00:32:22.47
as the beginning
of the creation of God
00:32:22.50\00:32:24.74
in the book of Revelation.
00:32:24.77\00:32:26.61
So all of this language
00:32:26.68\00:32:28.61
people have focused
in the bark on the tree.
00:32:28.64\00:32:32.61
Okay, John 3:16, it says,
00:32:32.65\00:32:34.88
"He is the only
begotten Son of God."
00:32:34.92\00:32:37.72
What's hard to
understand about that,
00:32:37.75\00:32:39.52
someone will say.
00:32:39.55\00:32:40.89
If He is the Son,
and God is the Father,
00:32:40.96\00:32:44.23
they couldn't be
chronologically concurrent.
00:32:44.26\00:32:47.80
The Father must...
00:32:47.83\00:32:49.16
We all know.
00:32:49.20\00:32:50.57
If you have a father and a son,
00:32:50.60\00:32:51.97
the father preceded,
00:32:52.00\00:32:53.64
preceded in time, the son...
00:32:53.67\00:32:56.40
In human relationships,
that's how it works.
00:32:56.44\00:32:58.57
I have a son, I
existed before my son Jason.
00:32:58.61\00:33:01.88
So people look
at the text and say,
00:33:01.91\00:33:03.58
"If He is the Son,
00:33:03.65\00:33:04.98
He couldn't have always
existed and He couldn't be God
00:33:05.01\00:33:08.68
in the same sense
that the Father is God.
00:33:08.72\00:33:11.02
He must be in some sense,"
00:33:11.05\00:33:12.75
like the Jehovah's
Witnesses would say,
00:33:12.79\00:33:14.29
"He is a God, but not God."
00:33:14.32\00:33:17.66
See?
00:33:17.69\00:33:19.03
So...
00:33:19.06\00:33:20.40
Or as the Catholics
believe in eternal generation
00:33:20.43\00:33:23.90
that He is emanating from God.
00:33:23.97\00:33:26.40
Yeah, perpetually for all...
00:33:26.43\00:33:27.84
Yeah.
00:33:27.87\00:33:29.20
So this is the
problem in the New Testament.
00:33:29.24\00:33:32.84
Okay, so people focus on that
00:33:32.87\00:33:34.34
and they draw doctrine
00:33:34.38\00:33:36.58
from looking at the
verses in isolation.
00:33:36.61\00:33:41.82
So I began to say to myself,
00:33:41.85\00:33:44.12
"Okay, well,
wait a minute though,
00:33:44.19\00:33:46.42
I know that everything else
00:33:46.45\00:33:48.59
I encounter in the New Testament
00:33:48.62\00:33:50.53
has an Old
Testament foundation."
00:33:50.56\00:33:53.43
Yes.
00:33:53.50\00:33:54.83
So I began to think,
00:33:54.86\00:33:56.20
"Okay, does
this have a grounding
00:33:56.23\00:33:57.57
in the Old Testament?"
00:33:57.60\00:33:58.93
because the fact is, Shelley,
I mean, think about this,
00:33:58.97\00:34:00.34
not only does the New Testament
00:34:00.37\00:34:01.70
say that Jesus
is the Son of God,
00:34:01.74\00:34:03.81
the firstborn, Son of God,
the only begotten Son of God,
00:34:03.84\00:34:06.51
the same New Testament
00:34:06.54\00:34:07.88
says He is in very
nature God and equal with God
00:34:07.91\00:34:11.68
in Philippians 2.
00:34:11.71\00:34:13.05
The fullness of the Godhead...
00:34:13.08\00:34:14.42
Yeah, yeah,
fullness of the Godhead
00:34:14.45\00:34:16.08
in bodily form...
00:34:16.12\00:34:17.92
Matthew 1:23,
00:34:17.95\00:34:20.16
when Mary gives
birth to this baby,
00:34:20.19\00:34:22.26
angel says, "Call Him Emanuel,"
00:34:22.29\00:34:24.13
which being
interpreted is God with us.
00:34:24.16\00:34:26.80
And 1 Timothy 3:16,
00:34:26.83\00:34:29.83
which you might just,
00:34:29.86\00:34:31.20
you know, compared to John 3:16,
00:34:31.23\00:34:33.13
John 3:16 says that
00:34:33.17\00:34:34.87
He is the only
begotten Son of God.
00:34:34.90\00:34:36.57
1 Timothy 3:16 says,
00:34:36.60\00:34:38.24
"Great is the
mystery of godliness,
00:34:38.27\00:34:41.04
God was
manifested in the flesh."
00:34:41.08\00:34:43.85
Amen.
00:34:43.88\00:34:45.21
So the same New
Testament that says
00:34:45.25\00:34:46.65
He is the Son of God
00:34:46.72\00:34:48.22
says He is God,
00:34:48.25\00:34:49.95
in very nature, God.
00:34:49.98\00:34:52.05
So you have a
conundrum, you have a problem.
00:34:52.09\00:34:55.02
And generally,
00:34:55.06\00:34:56.39
the way of the debate has gone
00:34:56.42\00:34:58.93
down through church history is,
00:34:58.96\00:35:01.03
people on each
side of the debate
00:35:01.06\00:35:03.47
have selected their verses.
00:35:03.50\00:35:06.20
Those who favor the
"Trinitarian" view of God
00:35:06.23\00:35:09.34
have said, "Well,
it says, He is God."
00:35:09.37\00:35:12.64
So they focus on those,
00:35:12.67\00:35:14.11
and they struggle with the ones
00:35:14.18\00:35:16.21
that don't fit that
paradigm, the Son of God text.
00:35:16.24\00:35:19.48
Those who favor the,
00:35:19.51\00:35:21.42
what is sometimes
called the non-Trinitarian
00:35:21.45\00:35:23.52
or the anti-Trinitarian view,
00:35:23.59\00:35:26.02
focus on what it says...
00:35:26.05\00:35:27.59
It says He is the firstborn son,
00:35:27.66\00:35:28.99
it says...
00:35:29.02\00:35:30.36
And they struggle to
make sense of the God verses
00:35:30.39\00:35:32.83
that say He is in
very nature of God.
00:35:32.86\00:35:34.60
And so you end up at what
I call a proof text impasse.
00:35:34.63\00:35:37.70
Yes.
00:35:37.73\00:35:39.07
"I've got my verses,
you've got your verses,
00:35:39.10\00:35:41.17
let's form
denominations over this."
00:35:41.20\00:35:42.54
Yeah.
00:35:42.57\00:35:43.91
"Let's separate over this,
00:35:43.94\00:35:45.27
let's be at
theological enmity over this."
00:35:45.31\00:35:48.31
But here's the thing,
00:35:48.34\00:35:50.68
the scriptures
synthesize both identities.
00:35:50.75\00:35:54.95
So here's how it works.
00:35:54.98\00:35:56.32
This is the gist of what
I discovered in scripture.
00:35:56.35\00:36:00.39
If you pan out from
the bark on the tree
00:36:00.46\00:36:02.42
is to look at the whole forest,
00:36:02.46\00:36:04.53
and you see
scripture as a whole,
00:36:04.56\00:36:07.40
you discover, Shelley,
00:36:07.43\00:36:09.53
that this Sonship idea
is a theme in scripture
00:36:09.56\00:36:14.24
that is initiated
00:36:14.27\00:36:15.90
in the very beginning
of the story in Genesis.
00:36:15.94\00:36:18.87
So God creates the
first man, his name is Adam,
00:36:18.91\00:36:22.61
He creates the first
woman, her name is Eve.
00:36:22.64\00:36:27.02
When Adam and Eve are created,
00:36:27.05\00:36:29.85
they are son and daughter of God
00:36:29.88\00:36:33.46
in a unique sense,
in a primary sense,
00:36:33.49\00:36:35.96
in that they didn't have
a human mom and dad, right?
00:36:35.99\00:36:39.69
They're the first
man, the first woman,
00:36:39.73\00:36:41.86
and then they have the power,
00:36:41.90\00:36:43.47
according to
Genesis, of procreation.
00:36:43.50\00:36:46.37
So sons and
daughters will come forth
00:36:46.40\00:36:48.77
from this union of Adam and Eve,
00:36:48.80\00:36:51.94
and the
scripture says that Adam,
00:36:51.97\00:36:53.68
this is in Genesis,
00:36:53.71\00:36:55.31
Adam will create
sons in his image.
00:36:55.34\00:36:58.81
Yes.
00:36:58.85\00:37:00.22
So there is this succession
of sons that is set up.
00:37:00.25\00:37:03.25
Well, when you fast
forward to the New Testament
00:37:03.28\00:37:05.35
and you see the cohesive
00:37:05.39\00:37:07.16
kind of the
connective strands, okay?
00:37:07.19\00:37:10.53
When you come to
the New Testament,
00:37:10.56\00:37:11.89
the gospels,
Matthew, Mark, and Luke,
00:37:11.93\00:37:15.50
and John tell us who Jesus is
00:37:15.53\00:37:18.13
in the context of
that initial story.
00:37:18.17\00:37:20.17
And this is crucial,
Shelley, this is crucial.
00:37:20.24\00:37:22.54
In Luke 3:38, I remember...
00:37:22.57\00:37:24.34
Yes.
00:37:24.37\00:37:25.71
Luke 3:38 calls Adam Son of God.
00:37:25.74\00:37:27.91
That's right.
00:37:27.94\00:37:29.28
So you have this genealogy
00:37:29.31\00:37:30.65
where it says so and so
00:37:30.68\00:37:32.01
is the son of so and so,
00:37:32.05\00:37:33.42
and each one is the
son of some human father.
00:37:33.45\00:37:36.15
And it goes all the way back,
00:37:36.18\00:37:37.59
you know, Jesse or
David, the son of Jesse
00:37:37.62\00:37:40.96
and Jesse, the son of Obadiah,
00:37:40.99\00:37:42.42
and it goes back,
back, back, back, back,
00:37:42.46\00:37:44.39
and then it says,
Adam the Son of God.
00:37:44.43\00:37:47.30
Yes.
00:37:47.33\00:37:48.66
So this is the
origin of the language,
00:37:48.70\00:37:51.33
Son of God.
00:37:51.37\00:37:53.13
Adam is the first Son of God
00:37:53.17\00:37:57.04
in the primary sense that
he is the one through whom
00:37:57.11\00:38:00.71
in a
genealogical flow of history,
00:38:00.78\00:38:03.78
every other human being
00:38:03.85\00:38:05.18
is going to come forth from him.
00:38:05.21\00:38:07.02
So Jesus is the Son of
God in the Adamic sense,
00:38:07.05\00:38:11.45
in the sense that
Adam was the Son of God
00:38:11.49\00:38:14.26
because here's
how the story flows.
00:38:14.29\00:38:16.73
Adam sins,
00:38:16.76\00:38:19.03
the fall occurs in
the Genesis account.
00:38:19.06\00:38:21.70
When Adam sins, when Eve sins,
00:38:21.73\00:38:25.20
God enters the
picture in Genesis 3
00:38:25.23\00:38:28.20
and makes a promise.
00:38:28.24\00:38:29.57
It is sometimes
called by Bible students,
00:38:29.60\00:38:31.87
by scholars, the
first gospel promise,
00:38:31.91\00:38:34.64
and it's a prophecy promise.
00:38:34.68\00:38:37.35
It's in Genesis 3:15
00:38:37.38\00:38:38.98
and God is speaking
to the serpent, to Satan,
00:38:39.01\00:38:41.72
in the presence of Adam
and Eve who have now fallen,
00:38:41.75\00:38:44.52
and God says to the serpent,
00:38:44.55\00:38:46.45
"I'm going to put
enmity or hostility
00:38:46.49\00:38:49.56
between you,
Satan, and the woman,"
00:38:49.59\00:38:52.59
in this local
historical sense, Eve,
00:38:52.63\00:38:55.70
but in the larger
eschatological sense,
00:38:55.73\00:38:58.30
the Israel and the
church down through history.
00:38:58.33\00:39:00.34
Yes.
00:39:00.37\00:39:01.70
"I'm going to put
enmity or hostility
00:39:01.74\00:39:03.24
between you,
Satan, and the woman,
00:39:03.27\00:39:06.81
and here's
what's going to happen,
00:39:06.88\00:39:08.88
you will bruise his heel
and he will crush your head."
00:39:08.91\00:39:14.72
So God now in Genesis 3:15
00:39:14.75\00:39:18.62
has said that there is
going to be an offspring,
00:39:18.65\00:39:22.16
there is going to be a seed,
00:39:22.19\00:39:24.56
"I will put enmity
between your seed and her seed,"
00:39:24.59\00:39:30.07
that is the sons and daughters
00:39:30.10\00:39:33.57
that will come forth
from Eve and the church,
00:39:33.64\00:39:37.31
and the sons and daughters
00:39:37.34\00:39:38.67
that will be in
a "spiritual sense"
00:39:38.71\00:39:40.38
the progeny of Satan
00:39:40.41\00:39:42.24
and his way of
thinking of God and doing life.
00:39:42.28\00:39:45.88
So this is remarkable.
00:39:45.91\00:39:47.42
Here is a promise
00:39:47.45\00:39:48.95
at the beginning of
the story of scripture
00:39:48.98\00:39:51.79
that we might call
a promise of progeny.
00:39:51.82\00:39:54.82
"Adam and Eve,
00:39:54.86\00:39:56.19
you're going to have a son
00:39:56.22\00:39:57.56
at some point,
it's not specified when,
00:39:57.63\00:39:59.63
but you're going to have a son
00:39:59.66\00:40:01.00
who will be the
new "Son of God."
00:40:01.03\00:40:06.33
He is going to come
through human lineage
00:40:06.37\00:40:08.34
and that's the point.
00:40:08.37\00:40:09.77
So when you come...
00:40:09.80\00:40:11.14
And He'll be the second Adam
00:40:11.17\00:40:12.51
is what Paul calls
Him in 1 Corinthians 15.
00:40:12.54\00:40:15.48
And also referring to Him
as the second Adam in Romans 5.
00:40:15.51\00:40:20.22
Yeah. You know?
00:40:20.25\00:40:21.58
Adam is the first man
00:40:21.62\00:40:24.12
in the representative
sense of the human race.
00:40:24.19\00:40:27.06
He is the
prototypical man, "Adam."
00:40:27.09\00:40:30.23
Well, Jesus is the
new prototypical man.
00:40:30.26\00:40:32.56
Yes.
00:40:32.59\00:40:33.93
Adam is the first
image bearer of God
00:40:34.00\00:40:38.50
who will create or
procreate in his image.
00:40:38.53\00:40:41.87
Jesus comes along
00:40:41.90\00:40:43.41
and Paul teaches us
00:40:43.44\00:40:44.77
that Jesus is now the
image of God reestablished.
00:40:44.81\00:40:48.58
Amen.
00:40:48.61\00:40:49.94
And out of Him, there will
be, what Paul says, many sons,
00:40:49.98\00:40:53.82
many offspring, who like
Adam was supposed to do...
00:40:53.85\00:40:58.25
They will bear the image of God.
00:40:58.29\00:41:00.86
And so this is an
incredible tapestry.
00:41:00.89\00:41:03.93
It's a story that's unfolding.
00:41:03.96\00:41:06.33
So again, backing up and
then moving forward, in Genesis,
00:41:06.36\00:41:09.76
Adam is the son of God,
00:41:09.80\00:41:11.83
Luke informs us
00:41:11.87\00:41:13.20
that Jesus is the Son of
God in the Adamic sense, okay?
00:41:13.23\00:41:16.84
So now we have a
grounding for the language.
00:41:16.91\00:41:20.11
Well, then as the
story of Genesis unfolds,
00:41:20.18\00:41:22.74
the plan of salvation unfolds
00:41:22.78\00:41:25.15
with this idea of
primogenitor or firstborn son.
00:41:25.18\00:41:30.49
So God calls Abraham
00:41:30.52\00:41:33.15
because God is
going to follow through
00:41:33.19\00:41:34.96
with the Genesis 3:15 promise.
00:41:34.99\00:41:38.19
He said, "I'm
going to send a Son,
00:41:38.23\00:41:41.00
an offspring
through the human lineage."
00:41:41.03\00:41:44.27
So He establishes a people.
00:41:44.30\00:41:46.47
He says, "Abraham, come out,
00:41:46.50\00:41:47.94
I'm starting a people with you."
00:41:47.97\00:41:50.34
That man Abraham is told by God,
00:41:50.41\00:41:55.14
"I'm going to give you a son
00:41:55.18\00:41:57.35
and your son will be the one
00:41:57.38\00:41:59.38
through whom the
promise will be carried forward
00:41:59.41\00:42:02.38
down through history."
00:42:02.42\00:42:03.79
So Abraham and
Sarah get all antsy
00:42:03.82\00:42:06.29
because they're getting old
00:42:06.32\00:42:07.79
and they take
matters into their own hands,
00:42:07.82\00:42:10.83
and they have Ishmael
00:42:10.86\00:42:12.63
who is technically
Abraham's first born.
00:42:12.66\00:42:15.66
First born.
00:42:15.70\00:42:17.67
But God says in so
many words in the story,
00:42:17.70\00:42:19.83
that's not the son of promise.
00:42:19.87\00:42:23.14
In Hebrews 11, actually says
00:42:23.17\00:42:26.24
that Abraham
when Isaac comes along
00:42:26.27\00:42:29.44
and he goes to
sacrifice, and it calls Isaac,
00:42:29.48\00:42:33.15
his only begotten son.
00:42:33.18\00:42:36.79
Yes. There is the
language, Shelley.
00:42:36.82\00:42:38.15
Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:38.19\00:42:39.52
So when we come
to the New Testament,
00:42:39.55\00:42:40.89
we have to
interpret the language
00:42:40.92\00:42:42.26
of the New Testament,
00:42:42.29\00:42:43.63
Jesus is the only
begotten Son of God,
00:42:43.66\00:42:45.53
with the source
that it comes from.
00:42:45.56\00:42:48.80
So Abraham has
Isaac who is technically,
00:42:48.83\00:42:53.13
biologically the second born son
00:42:53.17\00:42:54.87
but he is in fact the only
00:42:54.90\00:42:56.54
or the firstborn son
in the covenantal sense.
00:42:56.57\00:42:59.87
'Cause it's a
unique covenant. Yeah.
00:42:59.91\00:43:01.74
And then Isaac and
Rebecca, they have two sons,
00:43:01.78\00:43:06.72
they have twins, Jacob and Esau,
00:43:06.75\00:43:09.25
well, technically again,
00:43:09.28\00:43:11.39
Esau is the firstborn,
00:43:11.42\00:43:14.56
Jacob is the second born.
00:43:14.59\00:43:15.92
But Jacob becomes the first born
00:43:15.96\00:43:19.06
in the sense that he's the one
00:43:19.09\00:43:20.63
that will carry
the promise forward,
00:43:20.70\00:43:23.57
he's the covenantal Son of
God, the narrative Son of God.
00:43:23.60\00:43:28.74
So you have the same idea.
00:43:28.77\00:43:30.84
Then as the story unfolds,
this is so remarkable, Shelley.
00:43:30.91\00:43:35.48
Jacob has 12 sons,
00:43:35.51\00:43:37.95
his 12 sons then go
into Egyptian bondage
00:43:37.98\00:43:41.95
and they reproduce and
reproduce and reproduce
00:43:41.98\00:43:44.72
and they become a nation.
00:43:44.75\00:43:46.86
They become a nation, Shelley.
00:43:46.89\00:43:49.16
Jacob's name was changed
00:43:49.19\00:43:51.76
in his wrestling
match with the Lord,
00:43:51.79\00:43:54.70
and his name was
changed from Jacob to Israel.
00:43:54.73\00:43:56.87
Israel.
00:43:56.90\00:43:58.23
Israel now, this is amazing,
00:43:58.27\00:44:01.10
becomes the corporate name,
00:44:01.14\00:44:03.27
the corporate
name of all his sons
00:44:03.30\00:44:05.67
and all their progeny.
00:44:05.71\00:44:07.08
So the nation is now known
00:44:07.11\00:44:09.64
by the name of their
father Jacob who is Israel.
00:44:09.68\00:44:12.68
That's how we get
the nation of Israel.
00:44:12.71\00:44:14.32
Now this is amazing.
00:44:14.35\00:44:16.08
Israel is in Egyptian bondage,
00:44:16.12\00:44:18.35
now check this out,
this is so incredible.
00:44:18.39\00:44:20.96
They're in Egyptian bondage.
00:44:20.99\00:44:22.92
God calls Moses and says,
00:44:22.96\00:44:24.93
"Moses, go to
Pharaoh and tell Pharaoh,
00:44:24.96\00:44:28.86
'Let my son go.'"
00:44:28.90\00:44:33.44
Singular.
00:44:33.47\00:44:34.87
Who is His Son?
00:44:34.90\00:44:37.64
The Son of God now
00:44:37.67\00:44:39.71
takes on the
corporate identity of Israel.
00:44:39.74\00:44:42.74
This is how the story unfolds.
00:44:42.78\00:44:44.88
So now the Son of God...
00:44:44.91\00:44:47.62
Actually in Exodus,
00:44:47.65\00:44:51.42
God tells Pharaoh through Moses
00:44:51.45\00:44:54.56
that Israel is My begotten son.
00:44:54.59\00:44:58.46
The word begotten is used again.
00:44:58.49\00:45:00.70
It's a unique. Yeah, yeah.
00:45:00.73\00:45:02.36
It's unique. Yeah, yeah.
00:45:02.40\00:45:03.77
So God has a chosen
people, they're called Israel,
00:45:03.80\00:45:06.30
and God, says,
"I'm your father,"
00:45:06.33\00:45:08.87
He says to them.
00:45:08.90\00:45:10.41
Unlike the other
nations who have the fathers,
00:45:10.44\00:45:14.44
their fathers or their gods
00:45:14.48\00:45:16.64
are Marduk, and Moloch,
00:45:16.68\00:45:18.88
and Ishtar and Dagon,
00:45:18.91\00:45:20.82
and all these
other deities, God says,
00:45:20.85\00:45:23.69
"No, I'm your Father
in a unique special sense
00:45:23.72\00:45:27.06
and you're My son."
00:45:27.09\00:45:28.66
And the idea, the concept...
00:45:28.69\00:45:30.99
Shelley, this is amazing.
00:45:31.03\00:45:32.46
The concept,
this is so beautiful,
00:45:32.49\00:45:35.76
is that Israel now is
God's son in a corporate sense
00:45:35.80\00:45:41.80
as the conduit
through which the promise
00:45:41.84\00:45:45.91
is going to be
carried down through the ages,
00:45:45.94\00:45:47.41
down through the ages,
00:45:47.48\00:45:48.81
down through the
ages through whom,
00:45:48.84\00:45:52.05
the Messiah will be
born as the Son of God.
00:45:52.08\00:45:57.65
So it's all connected.
00:45:57.69\00:45:59.05
Jesus is the Son
of God in the sense
00:45:59.09\00:46:01.52
that Adam was the Son of God,
00:46:01.56\00:46:03.63
Jesus is the Son
of God in the sense
00:46:03.66\00:46:05.79
that Isaac and Jacob and
Israel was the Son of God.
00:46:05.83\00:46:10.70
So when the Lord says,
00:46:10.77\00:46:12.53
this is My beloved Son
in whom I am well pleased,
00:46:12.57\00:46:15.94
today I have begotten you...
00:46:15.97\00:46:18.54
Yeah.
00:46:18.57\00:46:19.91
It was...
00:46:19.94\00:46:21.28
Are you saying
then and I know you are.
00:46:21.31\00:46:22.91
But I'll try to
put it in simple way
00:46:22.94\00:46:25.18
that Christ was always eternal.
00:46:25.21\00:46:30.79
And, you know,
Philippians 2:5 through 8,
00:46:30.82\00:46:34.16
it says, "He did
not consider equality
00:46:34.19\00:46:37.89
with God to be robbery
00:46:37.93\00:46:39.36
because He was equal with God."
00:46:39.39\00:46:41.46
So He was always
eternal, He was always God,
00:46:41.50\00:46:46.47
but when He
became the covenant Son,
00:46:46.50\00:46:51.37
the second Adam...
00:46:51.41\00:46:52.84
Man, I love your articulation.
00:46:52.87\00:46:54.21
This is... Yes.
00:46:54.28\00:46:55.61
Okay, so when He became
the covenant Son of promise,
00:46:55.64\00:46:59.58
that's when He actually became,
00:46:59.61\00:47:03.28
quote and
quote, "the Son of God"
00:47:03.32\00:47:04.99
That's why Hebrews 1 specifies,
quoting from the Psalms
00:47:05.02\00:47:09.69
which is a messianic prophecy.
00:47:09.72\00:47:11.59
That's why the book of
Hebrews specifies, Shelley,
00:47:11.63\00:47:14.20
"Today, I have begotten you,"
00:47:14.23\00:47:16.33
today, at the
point of incarnation.
00:47:16.36\00:47:19.47
When you come
through the womb of woman
00:47:19.50\00:47:22.00
because that was the
promise back in Genesis 3:15,
00:47:22.04\00:47:25.41
to the serpent in
the hearing of the woman,
00:47:25.44\00:47:28.01
"I will put enmity between
you, Satan, and the woman."
00:47:28.04\00:47:32.08
The woman then becomes
the personified channel
00:47:32.11\00:47:35.42
through which
Messiah is going to come
00:47:35.45\00:47:36.89
into the world through birth.
00:47:36.92\00:47:38.25
So when Jesus comes
into the world, Shelley,
00:47:38.29\00:47:41.66
that's the reference
point for the Sonship of Christ.
00:47:41.69\00:47:47.10
So think about it like this.
00:47:47.13\00:47:49.66
Jesus
preexisted His incarnation.
00:47:49.70\00:47:54.34
Yes.
00:47:54.37\00:47:55.70
He existed, as
according to scripture,
00:47:55.74\00:47:58.57
God is very God.
00:47:58.61\00:48:01.01
"In the beginning was the
Word, the Word was with God,
00:48:01.04\00:48:02.68
the Word was God."
00:48:02.71\00:48:04.08
He was God.
00:48:04.15\00:48:05.58
And as God,
00:48:05.61\00:48:07.65
a great
condescension was entered into.
00:48:07.68\00:48:12.05
I mean, the God...
00:48:12.09\00:48:13.46
Shelley, think of this,
00:48:13.49\00:48:14.82
the God of the universe
00:48:14.86\00:48:16.49
loves you by name Shelley,
00:48:16.52\00:48:19.43
loved me by name Ty
00:48:19.46\00:48:20.90
and every member
of the human race.
00:48:20.93\00:48:23.03
God literally loved you
and me with such a passionate,
00:48:23.06\00:48:26.10
selfless, other-centered love,
00:48:26.13\00:48:28.37
that God condescended to become
a member of the human race,
00:48:28.40\00:48:33.17
not temporarily,
but eternally He is,
00:48:33.21\00:48:36.28
according to Hebrews,
00:48:36.31\00:48:37.65
our brother in
the flesh forever.
00:48:37.68\00:48:40.85
Yes.
00:48:40.92\00:48:42.25
This is a sacrifice of
monumental proportions.
00:48:42.28\00:48:46.79
You know, I'm going to tell you,
00:48:46.86\00:48:48.26
I have long said
00:48:48.29\00:48:50.33
that the greatest
sacrifice of Christ
00:48:50.36\00:48:53.03
was not on the cross,
00:48:53.06\00:48:54.63
don't
misunderstand what I'm saying,
00:48:54.66\00:48:56.80
His greatest
sacrifice was, eternal God
00:48:56.87\00:48:59.87
became a human being,
00:48:59.90\00:49:01.24
He took on our humanity. Yeah.
00:49:01.27\00:49:02.97
And a lot of scholars called
that the humiliation of Christ
00:49:03.00\00:49:07.81
to think that God
would become the second Adam,
00:49:07.84\00:49:11.91
become the
covenant Son of promise
00:49:11.95\00:49:15.35
so that He could die
in our place is amazing,
00:49:15.38\00:49:17.92
but even though...
00:49:17.95\00:49:19.75
And we're just
running out of time,
00:49:19.79\00:49:21.22
but I just have to say this.
00:49:21.26\00:49:23.29
Even though I've
been saying similar things
00:49:23.32\00:49:26.83
to what you're saying
without putting this altogether,
00:49:26.90\00:49:30.27
when I read Ty's book,
00:49:30.30\00:49:32.13
it's called The
Sonship of Christ,
00:49:32.17\00:49:35.47
Exploring the Covenant
Identity of God and Man...
00:49:35.50\00:49:38.81
Let me tell you and
this is available at Ty...
00:49:38.84\00:49:42.41
TyGibson.com.
00:49:42.44\00:49:43.88
TyGibson.com, okay.
00:49:43.95\00:49:46.18
They can also get
it at LightBearers.org.
00:49:46.21\00:49:48.45
Okay.
00:49:48.48\00:49:49.82
They can also get it at
Amazon, whatever that it is.
00:49:49.85\00:49:52.29
All right.
00:49:52.32\00:49:53.66
But here is what it did for me,
00:49:53.69\00:49:57.33
and I don't know that
I can articulate this.
00:49:57.36\00:50:00.03
I'm anxious to read it again.
00:50:00.10\00:50:02.13
But I remember,
00:50:02.16\00:50:04.17
for weeks after I
first read this manuscript,
00:50:04.20\00:50:08.87
when I would pray,
00:50:08.90\00:50:11.11
I had a bigger
picture of Jesus Christ,
00:50:11.14\00:50:15.88
even though I've been saying,
00:50:15.91\00:50:17.25
"Okay, He came
down, He took on man,"
00:50:17.28\00:50:19.21
it was like,
you are eternal God.
00:50:19.25\00:50:23.18
I mean, at some point,
you could say maybe in heaven,
00:50:23.22\00:50:26.05
Son of God was a
title reserved for Him.
00:50:26.09\00:50:28.69
Absolutely. But He wasn't.
00:50:28.72\00:50:31.03
The sayings, by
the way, Shelley,
00:50:31.06\00:50:32.39
that He is referred
to as the Lamb slain
00:50:32.43\00:50:35.53
from the
foundation of the world.
00:50:35.56\00:50:36.90
Of course, we know that
He wasn't actually slain
00:50:36.97\00:50:39.60
until AD 31 when
He was crucified,
00:50:39.63\00:50:41.94
but He was
designated to the role
00:50:41.97\00:50:46.07
before He came to this world.
00:50:46.11\00:50:47.58
All right, so
we're almost out of time.
00:50:47.61\00:50:49.61
So here's what I want to do.
00:50:49.64\00:50:51.58
We're going to put
up the address roll.
00:50:51.61\00:50:53.75
If you would like to
contact Light Bearers...
00:50:53.82\00:50:56.89
but we're going to
have, I think, your website,
00:50:56.92\00:51:00.66
TyGibson.com to get this book.
00:51:00.69\00:51:03.29
The Sonship of Christ
00:51:06.46\00:51:08.20
explains why Jesus
Christ is called the Son of God.
00:51:08.23\00:51:12.40
To order your copy,
00:51:12.43\00:51:13.77
visit his
website LightBearers.org.
00:51:13.84\00:51:16.81
That's LightBearers.org.
00:51:16.84\00:51:19.37
If you would like to invite
Ty to speak at your church,
00:51:19.41\00:51:22.18
just call him at 541-988-3333.
00:51:22.21\00:51:28.45
That's 541-988-3333.
00:51:28.48\00:51:33.22
You may also write
to Light Bearers, 37457,
00:51:33.25\00:51:37.73
Jasper Lowell Road in
Jasper, Oregon, 97438.
00:51:37.76\00:51:42.90