Participants:
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY018068A
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00:02 I want to spend my life
00:08 Mending broken people 00:12 I want to spend my life 00:19 Removing pain 00:24 Lord, let my words 00:30 Heal a heart that hurts 00:35 I want to spend my life 00:40 Mending broken people 00:46 I want to spend my life 00:51 Mending broken people 01:10 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today. 01:12 My name is CA Murray and allow me once again 01:14 to thank you for sharing just a little of your, 01:17 no doubt, busy day with us, to thank you for your love, 01:22 your support of Three Angels Broadcasting Network 01:24 as just shy of 34 years, 01:27 we have spread the gospel 01:28 around the world with your help and your assistance. 01:30 We have partnered together 01:32 to do a great work for the Lord. 01:34 I'm very excited today 01:36 because this is sort of a special program. 01:37 We don't have guests per se. 01:39 We've got part of the family here to discuss, 01:42 I don't think we can call it a... 01:45 It's a Bible topic. 01:46 It's not a doctrinal topic, 01:47 but it is a topic that deals 01:49 with the quality of spiritual life. 01:53 We want to take a look at forgiveness 01:55 and look at the facets and phases of forgiveness. 01:59 So we're going to wrestle with forgiveness today. 02:01 God's forgiveness to us, 02:03 our forgiveness of our brothers and sisters, 02:06 how that deals with the sin problem, 02:09 the ultimate disposition of sin as God forgives us of our sins. 02:14 So we want to take a sort of broad-brush today 02:16 as we look at the topic of forgiveness. 02:18 To join me in this little odyssey, 02:21 Shelley Quinn is with me. 02:22 Shelley, good to have you here, as always. 02:24 Good to be here. 02:26 Program Development Manager, we add to that now, 02:28 slash Producer and just a busy, busy person for the Lord, 02:33 and someone 02:34 who we don't see enough on 3ABN, 02:37 but he's not only the CFO but this guy... 02:42 We were talking about, has been to the seminary, he's pastored. 02:44 So he has a broad breadth of skills and ability, 02:48 some which we have underutilized 02:51 these many, many years. 02:53 Brian Hamilton, good to have you here, man. 02:54 Yeah, it's good to be here. 02:56 He is our prison ministry's maven 02:59 and has developed for 3ABN 03:02 and with 3ABN and on his own accord, 03:04 a really fabulous prison ministry 03:06 that covers southern Illinois 03:08 and does a fine job in doing that. 03:11 So, lord and lady, 03:13 we're going to talk about the idea of forgiveness. 03:19 I want to do a couple things before we begin. 03:23 I'm going to yield to the vicissitudes of age 03:25 and put on my glasses here before we go to our notes. 03:30 But again, the three facets 03:32 that I know we will cover by default, 03:34 if not by name, is God's forgiveness to us, 03:39 our dealings with our brothers and sisters, 03:41 our fellows' forgiveness to each other, 03:43 and then the ultimate disposition of sin 03:47 and God's forgiveness and doing away with sin. 03:52 Personal testimonies are allowed and encouraged 03:56 along with your discussion of forgiveness 03:59 as it appears in the Word of God. 04:01 When I was in New York City, 04:02 we used to have, what I call, lock-ins. 04:04 We would bring the young people to church 04:07 about 10 or 11 o'clock at night, 04:10 and we would lock them in, 04:12 and we would stay in church all night. 04:13 You couldn't leave before 6 am. 04:15 First of all, it was dangerous to let young person go 04:19 in middle of the night. 04:20 So we would have these lock-ins 04:22 which were really all-night prayer sessions. 04:25 And they became fairly plausible... 04:27 Popular rather, I would do about two a year. 04:30 That's all you could do and still maintain your sanity, 04:32 you know, 'cause you got to think of midnight to 6 am 04:36 constantly keeping their minds awake, 04:38 you know, and having them more so, 04:40 you had to put a lot of pre-work in 04:42 so that you had no fatigue time 04:44 because the moment you kind of slow down, 04:46 they're going to sleep. 04:48 In fact, we had the... 04:49 The older members of the church said, 04:51 "Well, you shouldn't just do this for young people. 04:53 We want this too." 04:54 And I found out that it doesn't work so well 04:56 past 40. 04:57 In fact, it doesn't work at all because at 2 am, 05:00 most of the folk were crawled up 05:01 on the bench somewhere, 05:03 but the young people, we could keep them up at night. 05:05 One of the questions we wrestled with 05:08 about 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning was, 05:10 "When are we most like God." 05:14 "When are we most like God?" 05:16 There's several ways to approach that question. 05:19 We decided we are most like God 05:21 when you do what God does the most. 05:24 Well, then what does God do the most 05:26 in dealing with the human family? 05:28 I think the thing 05:29 that occupies a lot of God's time is forgiving 05:33 because there's so much to forgive, 05:36 and there's so many of us asking for forgiveness. 05:39 And so it occurred to me 05:40 in talking with the young people 05:41 that maybe we're most like God when we forgive, 05:43 maybe the most... 05:45 One of the most gracious gifts 05:46 that God can give us is a forgiving heart 05:49 because He forgives us so much, 05:51 and then of course, we pass that forgiveness on. 05:55 So one of the things we want to talk about 05:57 is being like God in the act of forgiveness 06:00 and how God-like that is. 06:02 To err, human, to forgive divine. 06:05 You've heard that over the years. 06:07 Anybody who's married more than 10 minutes 06:10 knows that, 06:12 sooner or later, you're going to have to learn to say, 06:13 "I'm sorry," and you're going to have to forgive. 06:16 You're going to have to forgive your spouse 06:18 and your spouse is going to have to forgive you. 06:20 It's kind of baked in the cake. 06:22 You know, once you get married, 06:23 you're going to have to learn how to forgive 06:25 and to be forgiven. 06:26 So one of the things we want to talk about 06:29 is what is true forgiveness as we see it in the Bible, 06:32 and then I want to put this story out. 06:34 I want to give you a story. 06:35 And we're going to get back to this later on. 06:39 I used to tell this earlier in my ministry. 06:41 I haven't done this in many, many years, 06:42 but I want to just put this out before we go to our music. 06:47 Suppose Brian and I are at a convention, 06:50 and I've known Brian... 06:51 You've been here at 3ABN, how many years, Brian? 06:53 Eleven years. Eleven years. 06:54 Okay, so for 11 years, so we're pretty good friends. 06:57 And we ran out of space, 06:58 so we have to stay in the same room together. 07:01 I have a habit, as did my dad, 07:04 when I come in, I take my wallet 07:06 and all the cash out of my pocket, 07:07 and I just dump it on the dresser. 07:09 I've done that for years. My dad did that too. 07:12 So I do that habit. 07:14 And one day, I'm going to pick up 07:16 my wallet and my money, 07:17 and I notice some of my money is gone. 07:20 Not a great amount but a significant amount. 07:23 And there was no one in the room... 07:25 There's no one in the room with you? 07:27 This is not sounding good. 07:29 It gets better. 07:31 There's no one in the room but Brian and me. 07:34 So I look... 07:35 You know, sometimes you can misplace. 07:36 I look under the dresser, 07:38 I'm crawling around, nothing there. 07:39 And so I hesitantly say, 07:40 "Brian, did you see any money on the dresser?" 07:45 And Brian says "No." 07:47 I keep looking, maybe the maid took it or something, 07:49 you know, so I got to keep looking, 07:51 and I know this money is gone. 07:53 And so after this futile search, I say, 07:55 "Brian, you sure you didn't see anything?" 07:58 And he reluctantly says, 08:00 "Yeah, CA, I had this emergency. 08:04 There was something I wanted to get, 08:06 and I had to get it, 08:08 and I just didn't have the money, 08:09 so I borrowed it. 08:12 I'll give it back as soon as I run to the ATM. 08:15 And I'm sorry. It'll never happen again. 08:17 I apologize." 08:19 And I say to Brian, "Okay, no problem. 08:24 I forgive you. 08:25 It's forgotten." 08:26 Now that's what I say to him, but in my mind, I say, 08:30 "You know what, I think from now on, 08:33 I'll just keep my wallet in my pocket." 08:37 Now the question is, and we will get to this later, 08:41 have I forgiven and have I forgotten? 08:46 Or have I just said I forgive and I've not forgotten? 08:50 And in that instance, 08:52 am I being Christ-like or less than Christ-like? 08:56 Because I'm saying to Brian face-to-face, 08:58 "Hey, man, forgiven, forgotten," 09:01 but in my mind, I'm saying, 09:03 "Okay, I'm going to play this thing 09:04 a little closer to the vest now, 09:06 and I'm keeping my wallet in my pocket." 09:08 I think an argument could be made 09:10 that I have neither forgiven nor forgotten. 09:13 So before we end this hour together, 09:14 let's get back to that. 09:16 I would like to get your opinions on that. 09:17 All right? 09:19 Very good. Yeah. 09:20 We will go to our music, then I'm going to come back. 09:22 And who wants to go first? 09:23 Brian and Shelley, who wants to sort of take it on. 09:25 Let's let Shelley. We'll let Shelley. 09:26 We'll let the lady go first. 09:28 We'll sort of loose and let you go. 09:29 As we talk about forgiveness, 09:30 you may want to take some notes on this 09:32 because you may hear something 09:33 that will encourage you, that will inspire you, 09:35 that may help you wrestle with something 09:37 that is fazing you 09:38 in your own life with forgiveness. 09:40 We've all had opportunities 09:41 to practice this trade, you know. 09:44 We've had to forgive some things, 09:45 and couple of them have been kind of tough. 09:47 And if I get very sanguine before this is done, 09:49 I'm going to give you a story of forgiveness 09:51 that I'm to this day wrestling with 09:53 because sometimes our love of Christ 09:56 and our Christ-likeness is tested and tested severely. 10:02 Our music is coming from Sam Ocampo, a classmate, 10:05 dare I say, of yours, Brian. 10:07 Yes. 10:08 You told us at Andrews University. 10:10 Wonderful pianist, very expressive, 10:12 Sam is like a Jaime Jorge. 10:13 You've got to hear him, but you also got to see him 10:15 because he is a very, very expressive pianist, 10:19 a very, very accomplished artist. 10:21 He is going to be playing "What a Precious Friend". 13:28 Sam Ocampo, 13:29 what a precious friend, well done. 13:31 A treat to hear and certainly a treat to watch. 13:34 Thank you so very much. 13:35 Shelley, we were kind of letting you lead out. 13:37 Again, this is a quality of spiritual life issue. 13:42 It's not a doctrinal issue per se, 13:44 so a lot of forgiveness, 13:46 although we are remanded to forgive in the Bible 13:50 and in the Spirit of Prophecy, 13:51 but how you put legs on that 13:54 varies from individual to individual. 13:56 You know, that there is a call to forgive, 13:58 particularly when forgiveness is requested. 14:00 And we certainly know... 14:03 The Bible says that God will forgive, 14:05 and He is certain to forgive. 14:07 And in Psalms, David says that, "He wants to forgive." 14:10 That's something He wants to do, so we know that. 14:12 But then that's got to come through us 14:14 to our fellows, 14:15 walk us through that as you see it? 14:17 Well, my stories are... 14:20 I'd like to do a back to back story 14:22 from the Old Testament 14:25 because it's my favorite story on forgiveness. 14:28 And you'll see the point 14:30 that I will make from this story 14:33 is something that you just mentioned 14:35 in your little examples, opening up. 14:39 And it starts in 2 Samuel 12 and to set up the story, 14:45 this is the story of David. 14:47 And David as king didn't go out 14:50 when he should have gone out with his troops, 14:52 but he stayed at his castle. 14:56 He saw Bathsheba bathing, 14:59 he let torrid lust take over him, 15:02 he brought her to him, he laid with her, 15:05 she gets pregnant, 15:07 he then to cover his sin of adultery, 15:13 he sends her husband, Uriah, off to war. 15:19 When he can't get Uriah to go to Bathsheba, 15:21 he sends Uriah off to war and tells his captain, 15:28 "Once put him out there in front 15:29 and then back up and let him kill him." 15:32 And so that's what happens as Uriah gets killed. 15:35 So that's the back story. 15:37 Now David is in his palace, 15:42 and God sends the Prophet Nathan to him. 15:46 And Nathan comes and tells him, 15:49 "King David, there's this man who had all kinds of sheep, 15:54 but he had guests coming over, 15:56 and he decided he didn't want to kill 16:00 and cook one of his sheep for them, 16:02 but rather he goes to a man 16:04 who only has one precious little lamb, 16:07 takes that one, 16:08 kills it to serve up to his guests, 16:11 what should we do?" 16:12 And King David says, "Off with his head." 16:16 You know, basically, 16:17 actually, what he says in verse 5, 16:20 it said, "David's anger was greatly aroused 16:23 against the man. 16:24 And he said to Nathan, 'As the Lord lives, 16:28 the man who has done this shall surely die.'" 16:32 So then Nathan now does a little finger pointing. 16:35 And he says, "You are the man." 16:39 So what we see here is obviously 16:43 David didn't know this principle of forgive 16:46 and so the Lord will forgive you 16:47 because we don't see... 16:49 David was seeing the toothpick in this man, 16:52 and he had a telephone... 16:53 In this man's eye, and he had a telephone pole in his own. 16:57 Here he was guilty of adultery and murder. 17:01 And so what happens now is let's fast-forward 17:06 to Psalm 51 17:08 because Psalm 51 starts off, 17:10 and it says "To the chief musician, 17:12 a psalm of David, 17:14 when Nathan the Prophet went to him 17:16 after he'd gone to Bathsheba." 17:18 So this is after the confrontation. 17:21 And I love this psalm because you see in this psalm 17:25 all five steps of repentance. 17:27 He recognized that he sinned, godly sorrow seizes his heart, 17:31 he confesses his sin, 17:33 and he receives God's forgiveness, 17:35 and he's promised to change his conduct. 17:39 So here he's saying, "Have mercy upon me, O God, 17:41 according to Your loving-kindness, 17:43 according to Your multitude of Your tender mercies 17:47 blot out my transgressions, 17:49 wash me thoroughly from my iniquity 17:52 and cleanse me from my sin. 17:55 For I acknowledge my transgressions, 17:57 my sin is always before me against You, 18:01 You only, have I sinned." 18:04 So David goes forward, and he's saying, 18:06 "Oh, purge me, Lord, 18:08 create in me a clean heart, Father, 18:10 and renew a steadfast spirit in me. 18:13 Don't take Your Holy Spirit away from me." 18:16 And then as he's praying along, 18:20 he says, "Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, 18:22 uphold me by Your generous Spirit," 18:25 in verse 13, 18:27 "then I will teach transgressors 18:30 Your ways and sinners shall be converted to You." 18:34 The reason I love this story 18:38 is because of its conclusion in 1 Kings 14, 18:44 so let's turn there. 18:46 And in 1 Kings 14, 18:51 we're going to see a picture of forgiveness, 18:53 of God's forgiveness that is painted so beautifully, 18:59 and there's such a power punch to this. 19:02 What's happened here, King Jeroboam has a son, 19:07 Abijah, he's sick. 19:09 Jeroboam says, "Hey," to his wife, 19:12 "disguise yourself and go before Ahijah..." 19:17 It's kind of confusing. 19:19 Abijah, Ahijah is then the prophet who is blind. 19:24 And he says, 19:25 "Go find out, enquire the Prophet, 19:27 but I don't want him to know that you're my wife." 19:31 So he goes, 19:32 and God tells the prophet in advance, 19:35 "Hey, this is what's happening, 19:37 she's going to come disguised to you. 19:39 And here is what I want you to tell her." 19:44 So she's in his presence, and then the prophet says, 19:48 "According to the words of the Lord," 19:52 and this is 1 Kings 14:7, "Go, tell Jeroboam, 19:58 'Thus says the Lord God of Israel 20:00 because I exalted you from among the people 20:04 and made you ruler over My people of Israel 20:07 and tore the kingdom away from the house of David 20:09 and gave it to you, and yet, Jeroboam, 20:14 you have not been as My servant David 20:19 who kept my commandments, 20:22 who followed Me with all of his heart to do 20:27 only what was right in My eyes." 20:33 This is after David's death. 20:37 This was after David committed adultery, 20:40 David committed murder, what does James say, 20:43 "You break one commandment, you break them all." 20:46 And what is God saying here, God is saying, 20:51 "David kept all My commandments. 20:54 He followed Me with all his heart. 20:55 He did only what was right in My eyes." 20:57 What this shows to me 21:00 is that God forgets 21:04 what God forgives. 21:08 He puts all of our sins into... 21:13 He casts them into the depths of the sea, 21:15 and for His own sake, 21:18 He says, "Your transgressions, I will remember no more." 21:21 I think this is beautiful 21:23 because let me show you something, 21:26 as the Holy Spirit then is inspiring 21:28 the writer of Kings here, 21:30 here he's quoting God. 21:32 God is saying, 21:33 "David kept all My commandments, 21:35 did only what was right in My eyes." 21:37 But then in the next chapter in 1 Kings 15, 21:42 the Holy Spirit inspires the writer 21:45 so that we're not thinking, 21:46 "Oh, the writer didn't know about what happened 21:50 with David and Uriah the Hittite. 21:53 The Holy Spirit now inspires the writer 21:56 who's just quoted 21:57 what God had to say to say this in verse 4. 22:01 I'll just read verse 5. 22:03 He says, "Because David did 22:07 what was right in the eyes of the Lord 22:10 and had not turned aside from anything 22:13 that He, God, had commanded him all the days of his life 22:17 except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite." 22:22 So the Holy Spirit inspires the writer 22:25 to include the history, 22:27 but God didn't include the history. 22:29 Precisely. Yeah. 22:32 And so in response to your question 22:35 that you set up, 22:36 if love keeps no record of wrongs 22:41 and when we have truly forgiven, 22:43 we're not going to be bringing up the past 22:46 and rubbing that into somebody's face, 22:48 as God did not with David. 22:51 I think this is... 22:52 To me, that's exciting. 22:53 Shelley, I want to just hit the pause button 22:55 there for just a moment 22:56 'cause a number of things popped out of me. 22:57 In Jeremiah 31, 22:59 it's in the 30s, 33, 34, He says, 23:03 "I will forgive your sins and remember them no more. 23:08 I'm not going to remember them anymore." 23:10 So to me, it says, 23:11 if you are constantly rehearsing your sins, 23:14 and if they're constantly being washed before your face, 23:17 that's a trick of the devil to keep you under oppression 23:21 and to keep you in bondage because God says, 23:25 "I'm not going to remember them. 23:26 I'm not going..." 23:27 And that's such a fine example. 23:31 And this is what's important about that story. 23:33 Very quickly, really, 23:35 the Uriah thing and the Bathsheba marriage, 23:40 David never fully got out 23:42 from under the consequences of that experience. 23:45 They followed him till the day he died. 23:47 He never... 23:49 But in heaven, God is saying, "I have forgiven you. 23:53 I have forgotten that. 23:54 You're a saved person now." 23:55 Sometimes we can do things, and the tentacles follow us... 23:58 There's consequences for sins. 24:00 There are consequences that we don't... 24:01 But in heaven, God is saying, "I have forgiven you." 24:04 Say, a young woman makes a mistake 24:06 in the backseat of a car with a guy, 24:10 and the next morning, she says, 24:13 "Lord, I am sorry for what I did last night. 24:16 I am truly sorry." 24:18 Now she doesn't know, at that point, 24:20 that she's got a nine-month journey 24:21 in front of her, 24:23 and there's going to be a child, 24:24 but as God waits for that child to come to forgive her, 24:27 now we don't see the consequences of that night 24:29 till several months later. 24:31 It's obviously something happened 24:32 a few months ago, 24:34 but she's already given her to the Lord. 24:35 When does the Lord forgive her? Immediately. 24:37 Immediately, immediately, immediately, so God can say, 24:43 "She's a child after My own heart," 24:44 because of her response to her sin. 24:46 She saw her sin, she repented of her sin, and God forgave. 24:50 And that's an important thing 24:51 'cause so many people are dragging this load of stuff 24:54 behind them for things 24:55 that God has already forgiven them for, Shelley. 24:58 You haven't really hit true repentance 25:01 when you're like that 25:02 because I believe very strongly, 25:04 there's five steps to repentance. 25:06 There's the recognition of sin, 25:07 all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord. 25:10 There is then the godly sorrow that brings repentance. 25:15 You know, the Holy Spirit is working on your heart. 25:18 The confession of sin, 25:19 and, boy, don't ever get tired of confessing your sin 25:22 because it is the clearing house 25:24 in the conscience, 25:25 but a lot of people will stop there, 25:29 and I'm not saying once you've confessed to sin, 25:31 you don't have to keep confessing the same sin. 25:34 A lot of people will stop there, 25:36 and they don't receive God's forgiveness. 25:39 We've got to remember that He tells us 25:41 that His mercies are new every morning. 25:44 And when He says in Isaiah 43:18 and 19, 25:50 He says, "Don't dwell on the past. 25:53 See, I'm doing a new thing in you, 25:54 and it will spring forth suddenly. 25:56 Do you not perceive it?" 25:58 You got to perceive it, yeah. 25:59 So we have to receive God's forgiveness, 26:02 and we have to forgive ourselves 26:04 to do that actually. 26:05 Don't do condemnation on yourself 26:07 that God has not put there. 26:08 Absolutely. 26:10 There is no condemnation if you're in Christ Jesus. 26:11 Right. 26:13 You've confessed it, He's forgiven you. 26:14 I don't believe it until we've received His forgiveness 26:16 that we can really make that U-turn that's necessary. 26:19 You know, 'cause we're still living in the past. 26:21 Agreed. 26:22 All right, now one more quick thing. 26:25 Here we've got the story of David 26:28 whom God called a man after His own heart, 26:31 and he sinned in a major way, but we see God's forgiveness. 26:36 Didn't God forgive and forget with David 26:39 because David was such a good guy 26:42 and loved God so much. 26:44 I want to show you a contrast in the story 26:48 because this is one of my favorite pictures 26:52 of grace in the Old Testament. 26:55 Hezekiah had a son, 26:59 and his son was named Manasseh. 27:01 And we find Manasseh 27:03 and his story begins in 2 Kings 21. 27:07 It abruptly ends, 27:08 but then it picks up again in 2 Chronicles 33. 27:12 Let me... 27:13 If you don't know about King Manasseh, 27:15 he became a king 27:17 when he was 12 years old, very immature, 27:19 fell under the influence of the pagan 27:21 and heathen religions. 27:24 He practiced witchcraft, 27:27 he went to spiritists and mediums. 27:29 He did all kinds of evil things. 27:32 He initiated the practice 27:35 of sacrificing children to Molech. 27:39 His own children. 27:40 And then it says that he... 27:44 They called him, by the way, 27:45 he was dubbed the Nero of Palestine 27:49 because he killed so many people 27:52 that they said that the blood just ran throughout Jerusalem. 27:56 All right, so God sends Isaiah and Micah to talk with him 28:01 and reason with him. 28:03 According to history, 28:05 Manasseh is the one that sawed Isaiah in half. 28:08 In half, correct. 28:09 So he snubbed his nose at God's prophets, 28:13 he snubbed his nose at God, so what happens? 28:17 God allows the Babylonian king to come down to capture him, 28:21 to take him away in iron bonds and fetters. 28:26 Hooks on his nose. Yeah. 28:28 Led by a rope with a hook that was either in his nose 28:31 or in his jaw, one of the two, 28:34 but just can you imagine being dragged out the king. 28:37 He's lost all of his dignity, and then when he is locked up, 28:43 and he's in such a bad way, 28:45 and he's being persecuted by his captors, 28:48 he suddenly comes to his senses. 28:50 He cries out to the one and only true God. 28:55 He asks for forgiveness, 28:58 an apostate, 29:00 someone who had rejected, resisted the Holy Spirit, 29:04 rejected God over and over again, 29:09 God hears in heaven, and He answers. 29:13 I just find this so amazing 29:16 that once Manasseh humbled himself and repented. 29:21 Then I want to go to 2 Chronicles 33:12 29:26 because God then not only does He hear, 29:33 He answers, and He restores the kingdom of Judah to him. 29:39 2 Chronicles, what'd I say, 33:12. 29:42 I love this story because we see 29:45 that God doesn't just forgive us 29:47 because we're good, 29:49 but that God's forgiveness is a choice, 29:53 and when we cry out to Him, 2 Chronicles, 29:58 I hope I've got the right chapter here, 33:12. 30:02 I'm on the wrong page. 30:04 And it says... 30:05 "Now when he was in affliction?" 30:06 Yes, "Now when he was in affliction," 30:08 speaking of Manasseh, 30:10 "he implored the Lord his God 30:12 and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers 30:16 and prayed to Him, 30:17 and He, God, received his entreaty, 30:21 heard his supplication, 30:24 and brought him back to Jerusalem 30:27 into His kingdom, 30:30 then Manasseh knew that the Lord was God." 30:36 I just think that that is such a beautiful picture 30:39 of the heart of God, 30:41 the grace of God 'cause people will say, 30:43 "Oh, where do you see grace in the Old Testament? 30:45 Are you kidding?" 30:48 But, you know, the sad thing is, 30:49 once again, consequences. 30:51 Now Manasseh tried to undo every bad thing he had done. 30:57 He broke down all the altars, built an altar only to God, 31:02 but he could never turn the residents of Jerusalem away 31:08 in his lifetime from their paganism 31:11 and their heathenism. 31:12 If you look at the fall of Jerusalem, 31:15 the idolatry of the Northern Kingdom, 31:18 a direct line can be traced to Manasseh. 31:22 What is interesting, after all of that, 31:24 a fellow who offers his own children and sacrifice 31:27 as an act of worship to God. 31:30 Molech, to Molech. 31:32 I'm sorry, to Molech, to Molech, 31:35 but as an act of worship is my point. 31:37 To his "god". 31:39 To his god, small G. 31:41 A small G. A very small G. 31:44 He is saved, 31:45 but he starts a chain of circumstances that... 31:47 That's right. 31:48 And that's the thing about... 31:50 You know, when you come to the Lord, 31:51 the only regret you really have that you didn't come sooner 31:54 because a lot of times, 31:55 stuff gets started 31:56 and the consequences of those things 31:58 have to be played out 32:00 even though you are, at that point, 32:01 in right standing with the Lord, 32:02 which encourages us, 32:05 come to the Lord as soon as you can 32:06 'cause that keeps you from a lot of regrets. 32:09 I'm working on a book 32:10 of these two stories called Arguing with God. 32:12 His dad did the arguing, 32:13 and God gave him 15 more years and that's... 32:15 He was doing that 15 extra years 32:17 that Manasseh was born, so had he died like God said, 32:20 "Prepare your house and just lay it on a die," 32:23 Manasseh would not have come, 32:24 but Lord yielded, 32:26 and of course, we got this story, 32:27 but I think it's an important point. 32:29 You cannot run too far, 32:30 you cannot run too fast to outrun God's forgiveness. 32:33 And it's a beautiful story, Shelley. 32:34 And I just love the contrast that if David was a man 32:38 after God's own heart, and you can think, 32:39 "Well, yeah, he slipped and fell, 32:41 God forgave and forgot." 32:43 But here as well, God is forgiving an apostate, 32:48 one of the worst. 32:51 One of the worst. 32:52 Well said, Brian? 32:54 Well, when I think of forgiveness, 32:57 I think of is there anything in the Bible 33:02 that there isn't a sacrifice for. 33:06 You know, Hebrews says, "For if we sin willfully..." 33:10 That's Hebrews 10:20, "If we sin willfully..." 33:16 That's a whole lot of... 33:19 I mean, you know, 33:20 there's the accidental catching or surprised, 33:23 but there's a fair bit of sinning willfully 33:26 that happens on earth today. 33:29 "If we sin willfully after we have received 33:32 the knowledge of the truth, 33:34 there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin." 33:39 And then that text kind of leads you back to a story 33:42 in the Old Testament again in Numbers 33:46 about a man picking up sticks on the Sabbath, 33:52 when God just had said, 33:54 "Don't pick up sticks on the Sabbath." 33:57 You know? 33:58 And, 34:02 you know, this is for Christians, 34:04 this is at least for me growing up, 34:06 was a bit worrisome or worried me. 34:10 You know, is there... 34:12 There were certain sins in the Old Testament 34:14 that no sacrifice was offered for. 34:17 One was murder, David murdered, 34:20 one was adultery, 34:22 David committed adultery, no sacrifice. 34:27 And then Sabbath breaking was another one. 34:30 And so how 34:33 when there's no provision in the law 34:35 that you can read for a sacrifice 34:38 for these sins, except one, lose their life. 34:41 Well, that's, you know... 34:43 What do you do with that? 34:45 Well, what Shelley just did for us 34:47 is she took us on a case study 34:50 that you won't find it in the letter of the law 34:53 instead you have to go to case law 34:55 or a case study and say, 34:58 "Well, how did God treat someone who murdered? 35:02 Was there any forgiveness for a murderer?" 35:05 And you go, "Oh, thank you, Lord." 35:07 Amen. 35:09 You know, was there any forgiveness for someone 35:11 who committed adultery? 35:13 Because technically, 35:14 they both should have been taken out and stoned. 35:17 Not a great way to die, 35:19 you know, at least that's the way 35:21 the law read or at least him, 35:23 if she was sort of an innocent party 35:26 and got dragged into this against her will 35:28 in some way shape or form, 35:30 at least he should have been taken out, 35:34 well, he was the king, 35:36 but wait a minute, the law says 35:37 there's no respecter of persons, 35:40 doesn't matter if they're rich or poor, 35:42 whether they were king or wasn't a king, 35:44 judges were supposed to be impartial 35:47 in administering the law. 35:49 So I am really grateful for case study. 35:52 Amen. Amen. 35:55 And something else about forgiveness that I've... 35:58 Do you have to feel warm and fuzzy 36:03 towards someone who has wronged you 36:05 when you forgive them? 36:07 Do you have to get to the point 36:08 where you have no ill feeling or no emotions 36:14 that are negative or in other words, 36:16 warm and fuzzy to them and still have forgiven? 36:18 Good point. Okay. 36:20 Does it take warm and fuzzies to forgive? 36:23 Or is it an act of the will of a decision, 36:29 and it's done even though 36:31 maybe you emotionally haven't healed 36:34 or recovered from that? 36:40 I'm certainly hoping that that is the case 36:46 because their effects, 36:48 I mean, there are people 36:51 who have been horrifically wronged, 36:54 and maybe emotionally, 36:56 they'll never totally recover this side of heaven, 37:01 but they can still forgive, 37:03 even though emotionally they are scarred, 37:07 yeah, but they can still forgive. 37:11 And so that's... 37:12 Some people feel like, 37:14 "Unless I can feel really good 37:15 toward the person who wronged me, 37:18 I have really haven't forgiven them." 37:20 And I go, "No." 37:21 If you have said, "Lord, 37:26 even though I don't feel like forgiving them, 37:28 I have forgiven them, 37:30 and You would have to work with me on my feelings," 37:33 because, you know... 37:34 Let me ask you a question, 37:35 both of you can weigh in on this. 37:37 We use a term forget, 37:39 what does that actually mean on an operational level? 37:43 Because if you do me wrong, 37:46 the thought of that is still there, 37:49 so what does it mean to forget? 37:53 Let me just share a quick story. 37:56 When JD and I, just before we were married, 38:00 we were in business with a gentleman 38:02 who put us $250, 000 in the debt, long story, 38:06 but then the man threatened my life, 38:07 and there were a lot of things that happened. 38:09 And I found myself, for the first time in my life, 38:13 hating someone. 38:15 I mean, he had destroyed us financially, 38:18 we were responsible for all this debt 38:20 because it was all in our name, 38:22 and here we are getting married, 38:23 $250, 000 in debt, 38:25 I've got, you know, reports out 38:28 that he's got a hit squad out on me. 38:31 And I am traipsing all over Europe 38:34 looking over my shoulder during this time. 38:36 And I truly felt hatred for the first time in my life. 38:40 I came back, 38:42 and I when I got back to the States safe and sound, 38:45 I was praying and asking God for forgiveness of my sin, 38:50 and God says, "I will forgive you 38:52 as you forgive him." 38:54 And it was like, "How can You expect me 38:57 to forgive this person who's done all of this, 39:01 and he is, you know, he's not asking for forgiveness?" 39:07 I kind of always felt like 39:08 they had to ask for forgiveness, you know. 39:11 And so God just kept impressing upon me, and I said, 39:16 "Well, Lord, I don't know how to forgive him." 39:18 So I asked Him, "You're going to have to give it to me." 39:21 And God impressed upon me, "Pray for his salvation." 39:25 I didn't want to pray for his salvation. 39:28 I didn't want him to be saved, I mean, I was... 39:31 I hated this man. 39:32 He didn't deserve salvation. You're right. 39:35 You know what I'm saying? Oh, yeah. 39:37 We would know what was that. Yeah. 39:38 Okay, here we go. 39:39 That came from Shelley... 39:41 Right, right. 39:42 Yes, and I mean, 39:43 no more than I deserve salvation, 39:45 so finally, I said to the Lord, "Okay, I will. 39:49 I'll pray for his salvation, You know I don't mean it." 39:53 But I prayed every day for this man's salvation. 39:56 He was of a different faith. 40:00 I mean, he was Muslim, okay. 40:02 Anyway, I'm praying every night 40:04 for this man's faith or salvation. 40:08 And one night, I'm praying in tears. 40:13 One night, it was so real. 40:15 And I realized God had put His love, 40:19 He was helping me see this man through His eyes 40:22 as the lost and suffering person he was. 40:26 And as I prayed, it was... 40:30 I mean, I prayed it with all my heart, 40:34 and I didn't even have to say I forgave him, 40:36 I'd forgiven him. 40:38 It was like this big burden had rolled off of my shoulders. 40:42 So I asked the Lord 'cause don't you wonder like, 40:45 "Jesus said, 'Love your enemies and pray for those 40:49 who persecute you.'" 40:51 And it's like, "Oh, you got to be kidding me." 40:55 So I asked the Lord to give me an illustration, 41:01 "Why would You tell us to forgive our enemies?" 41:06 Here's what He showed me. 41:09 If there is a little mountain stream 41:11 that's coming down into a valley, 41:13 and I anchor a string on one side of it, 41:17 a little wire on one side and anchor it on the other, 41:20 somebody upstream throws trash into the stream, it comes, 41:26 it hits the wire, what happens? 41:28 It collects. 41:29 More people upstream, more trash. 41:33 It begins just like a beaver would build a dam 41:36 stick by stick, 41:38 it dams us up, and the stream is no longer running. 41:42 What the Lord showed me was unforgiveness 41:45 was like that little tiny wire in our hearts, 41:48 and that as things that offend us, 41:51 things that hurt us and wound us, 41:53 all of this begins to collect 41:56 around that wire of unforgiveness, 41:57 and you find yourself in bitter, resenting. 42:02 And so when Jesus said, 42:05 "Forgive and love your enemies and forgive them." 42:10 He was saying it for your benefit 42:13 because if that gets dammed up in your heart, the Holy Spirit, 42:17 the living water can't flow through you, 42:19 but as soon as you let it go, 42:23 God can wash all that stuff out of you. 42:26 So it's just like when He said. 42:29 "If you forgive someone, 42:31 it's like you're heaping coals on their head." 42:35 They used to... 42:36 When they were in that day and age, 42:39 when they were doing repentance, 42:42 they wore these hats, 42:45 these headdresses that had these metal plates, 42:48 and they would put burning coals on top of them, 42:51 they still danced. 42:52 In some places, they still dance like this. 42:56 But the burning coals meant they were repenting so, 42:59 when you forgive somebody, 43:01 you're heaping burning coals on their head, 43:05 you're encouraging them to turn around and repent. 43:11 Brian... A good point. 43:12 I want you to... 43:13 Just don't lose it 43:15 because you've touched on something, 43:16 this idea of restoration of relationship, 43:20 part of forgetting is to restore the relationship. 43:23 So when God says, "I'll remember them no more." 43:26 He's taking you back to square one. 43:28 And so He can say, 43:30 "You are a man after My own heart, " 43:31 because he's starting all over again, 43:33 even though the mind of heaven is aware of the infraction, 43:38 it doesn't come between you and God. 43:41 And I think that's so very, very important, 43:43 that you're starting all over afresh 43:45 so you can free yourself from self-condemnation 43:47 because God isn't condemning you anymore. 43:49 Going back to my story, if I say, 43:54 "I'm going to keep my wallet in my pocket." 43:56 I've changed the relationship. 43:59 You know, I've not really forgotten 44:01 because I've altered the relationship. 44:02 So shouldn't it be then that if I've truly forgiven 44:06 that wallet and money ought to go back on a dresser? 44:09 I'd say no. 44:11 That's what the young people got to exercise. 44:13 They said, "No, I'm not doing that again." 44:15 Obviously, the guy has a problem with money, 44:18 so I'm not going to put myself in the position 44:20 to be hurt again but... 44:21 Or I'm not going to put myself in a position 44:24 of where I tempt him again. 44:26 It can go either way. 44:28 And you can play with that a little bit. 44:29 But when God gives you victory, didn't Christ say, 44:33 "The Prince of this world cometh 44:35 and He has nothing in Me." 44:36 So there's nothing He can put in front of me 44:39 that is going to tempt me. 44:42 Should I risk that again because the Bible says, 44:44 "Every time we sin, we crucify Christ afresh." 44:47 So He doesn't pull out, He doesn't say, 44:49 "No, I'm going to keep my wallet in my pocket." 44:51 He lays Himself on a line again. 44:53 Puts more money down, not just a little bit. 44:56 Maybe that's because he's God, and we're not quite there yet, 44:59 but there's a little something there. 45:00 But to me, truly forgetting, 45:03 does that not mean, Shelley, Brian, 45:05 that we restart the relationship again 45:08 as though the infraction never happened? 45:10 I would say it is a case-by-case. 45:15 And let me say why. 45:16 Let's say that a woman is in an abusive relationship, 45:21 and her husband comes to her and says, 45:24 "Forgive me, I won't do that again." 45:26 And she prays about it, and she forgives him, 45:29 and she puts herself back on the line. 45:30 And he does it again, then he comes and says, 45:33 "Forgive me, I won't do that again." 45:36 I think that there are times that forgiveness is a choice. 45:41 And it's something that... 45:42 I think it's also a gift from God. 45:44 I think sometimes we have to pray 45:46 for that ability, 45:51 you know, that's just like 45:53 how God had me pray for this person. 45:55 But there comes a time when we say, 46:00 "Forgive and forget," 46:01 if I'm forgiving you for, let's say, 46:05 there's been a heinous sin 46:07 that you've committed against me. 46:09 And I am forgiving you. 46:11 I'm not going to rub that into your face 46:13 every time we talk, 46:14 but if the level of trust between you and I 46:19 has been totally destroyed, 46:21 there are times when I believe you have to extract yourself 46:26 from the situation, like the woman with a husband, 46:29 extract yourself and use wisdom and discernment 46:34 to protect yourself. 46:36 In yours, it's simple enough that I would say, "Go for it, 46:40 maybe another time." 46:42 If it happened a second time, 46:43 then you know this is a pattern. 46:45 It wasn't just the one time. 46:47 But I do think personally there are times 46:50 when I've had to forgive people 46:53 and because of the nature of their sin, 46:56 I also had to protect myself. 46:58 So it was kind of you remove them 47:01 and love them from a distance. 47:03 You wish them well, you may be cordial, 47:06 but you may not put yourself into the position to be... 47:12 Yeah, Brian, what you're thinking about. 47:13 Yeah. Let me jump in there. 47:15 I think it's the goal of God 47:17 to actually restore the relationship. 47:19 I think that's the end goal that God is working 47:23 toward for all of us because all of these sins 47:27 are a sins of relationship, and someone hurting 47:30 someone else in a relational way, 47:33 most all sin is relational. 47:34 Always. 47:37 And I can't really even think of one that isn't relational. 47:41 I think it's always against you and you only have I sinned, 47:44 so there's always that relationship. 47:46 So I think it is God's goal that in the end, 47:50 whether it happens here on this earth or not, 47:53 I believe that in the end, those are going to be restored. 47:57 And when they're restored, 47:58 they're even going to be better 48:00 and stronger than they were before the infraction came. 48:05 I believe that's where God's heading us toward. 48:07 You're right where I was going to go if you did not... 48:10 The restoration may not be immediate, 48:12 and it may not be now. 48:14 For now, we may have to insulate ourselves. 48:16 If you have a person who's a convicted pedophile 48:18 that wants to be the Pathfinder leader, 48:22 we're not doing that, you know. 48:23 Not for the kids and not for him. 48:25 No, not for him, not for him. 48:26 It's not good for his salvation experience 48:29 to put that in front of him because he is perfecting, 48:32 he, forgive my prerogative of English, 48:34 ain't perfected yet. 48:35 So he's going to be restored, but it may not be here, 48:39 and it may not be now, and putting him back 48:41 into that may retard that restoration. 48:44 So, well done. 48:46 Now we cut you off 48:47 because you kind of tapped on a little something. 48:50 I know our time's getting away from us, 48:52 but do you have anything else? 48:53 I don't want to cut off what you had, Brian. 48:58 We've been talking about someone committing something 49:01 against another person or someone, I should say, 49:05 someone committed a wrong against us 49:07 and our forgiving them. 49:10 People wrestle over whether they are forgiven. 49:15 And you'd mention and keep bringing it up, 49:20 that's a struggle that many people 49:22 who have done something terribly wrong, 49:24 and I am with those kind of guys every week. 49:28 They have done something terribly, terribly 49:31 hurtful to someone else, 49:33 and couldn't ever forgive themselves, you see. 49:37 And I believe that 49:42 we need to be as forgiving of ourselves 49:47 as God is of us and learn to understand that. 49:51 Yeah, yeah. 49:52 You don't want to atrophy the grace of mercy of God. 49:54 He can fully forgive and restore. 49:58 So we need to get ourselves over some times. 50:00 To put that behind, 50:01 put that behind and move forward. 50:02 Well said. 50:04 You know, it's easy sometimes to say, 50:05 "Yes, I see that God forgives me, 50:06 but I can't forgive myself." 50:08 Well, that means you're putting your opinion 50:10 above God's opinion. 50:13 So that's why we have to accept God's forgiveness. 50:17 Yeah, yeah. 50:18 I did a little study some time ago. 50:19 It's been a little while, I don't remember 50:21 if it's one-third or two-thirds 50:22 or 40% of the Bible was written by murderers. 50:26 All the New Testament, when you add up to 66, 50:29 somewhere in the, is it the high 20s or 30s, 50:33 written by people who had taken someone's life 50:36 or given an order that ended in the death 50:37 of somebody else. 50:39 Yeah, one of the most prolific writers in the New Testament... 50:42 Precisely. Very much so, very much so. 50:45 And you got the first five books 50:46 written by a murderer, you know, a murderer. 50:48 So can God restore? Yes, He can. 50:51 He can restore fully, 50:53 and He can use you in a marvelous way, 50:56 you know, so the response seems to be, 50:59 the linchpin seems to be what is our response 51:02 to the chastening of the Lord 51:04 once you are called out on your sin, 51:06 whatever that is, He is ready to forgive. 51:10 Psalms 86 says, "He's ready. 51:12 He wants to forgive." 51:14 What's our response to ourselves? 51:16 Quick thought before we go to our news break, 51:18 and then we've got a sort of wrap a little bow on this. 51:26 The sin that seems to have no sacrifice 51:30 in the Old Testament 51:32 because of the case studies that we've talked about, 51:36 there is a sacrifice that counts for all sin. 51:41 And I think that's what I'd like 51:42 the people to understand. 51:43 The death of Jesus is a sacrifice 51:47 that covers all sin. 51:49 Amen. 51:50 Nothing is excluded from that, 51:52 except continually resisting it, 51:57 but there's... 51:58 I don't care what kind of sin 51:59 you might have committed in your life, 52:02 there is a sacrifice 52:04 and Jesus paid it, and it covers all. 52:07 Amen and amen. 52:09 We're going to go to our news break 52:10 and then come back 52:12 and have Brother Brian and Sister Shelley 52:14 just put a little bow on this before we wrap up. 52:16 We'll be back in just a couple of moments. |
Revised 2018-09-17