I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Removing pain
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Lord, let my words
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Heal a heart that hurts
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today.
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My name is CA Murray
and allow me once again
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to thank you for
sharing just a little of your,
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no doubt, busy day with
us, to thank you for your love,
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your support of Three
Angels Broadcasting Network
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as just shy of 34 years,
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we have spread the gospel
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around the world with
your help and your assistance.
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We have partnered together
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to do a great work for the Lord.
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I'm very excited today
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because this is sort
of a special program.
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We don't have guests per se.
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We've got part of the
family here to discuss,
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I don't think
we can call it a...
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It's a Bible topic.
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It's not a doctrinal topic,
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but it is a topic that deals
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with the quality
of spiritual life.
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We want to take a
look at forgiveness
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and look at the facets
and phases of forgiveness.
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So we're going to
wrestle with forgiveness today.
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God's forgiveness to us,
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our forgiveness of
our brothers and sisters,
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how that deals
with the sin problem,
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the ultimate disposition of sin
as God forgives us of our sins.
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So we want to take a
sort of broad-brush today
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as we look at the
topic of forgiveness.
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To join me in
this little odyssey,
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Shelley Quinn is with me.
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Shelley, good to
have you here, as always.
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Good to be here.
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Program Development
Manager, we add to that now,
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slash Producer and just a
busy, busy person for the Lord,
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and someone
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who we don't see enough on 3ABN,
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but he's not only
the CFO but this guy...
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We were talking about, has been
to the seminary, he's pastored.
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So he has a broad
breadth of skills and ability,
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some which we have underutilized
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these many, many years.
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Brian Hamilton, good
to have you here, man.
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Yeah, it's good to be here.
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He is our
prison ministry's maven
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and has developed for 3ABN
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and with 3ABN and
on his own accord,
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a really
fabulous prison ministry
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that covers southern Illinois
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and does a fine
job in doing that.
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So, lord and lady,
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we're going to talk
about the idea of forgiveness.
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I want to do a couple
things before we begin.
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I'm going to yield to
the vicissitudes of age
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and put on my glasses
here before we go to our notes.
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But again, the three facets
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that I know we
will cover by default,
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if not by name, is
God's forgiveness to us,
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our dealings with
our brothers and sisters,
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our fellows'
forgiveness to each other,
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and then the
ultimate disposition of sin
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and God's forgiveness
and doing away with sin.
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Personal testimonies
are allowed and encouraged
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along with your
discussion of forgiveness
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as it appears
in the Word of God.
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When I was in New York City,
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we used to have,
what I call, lock-ins.
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We would bring the
young people to church
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about 10 or 11 o'clock at night,
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and we would lock them in,
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and we would stay
in church all night.
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You couldn't leave before 6 am.
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First of all, it was
dangerous to let young person go
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in middle of the night.
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So we would have these lock-ins
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which were really
all-night prayer sessions.
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And they became
fairly plausible...
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Popular rather, I
would do about two a year.
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That's all you could do
and still maintain your sanity,
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you know, 'cause you got
to think of midnight to 6 am
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constantly
keeping their minds awake,
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you know, and
having them more so,
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you had to put a
lot of pre-work in
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so that you had no fatigue time
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because the moment
you kind of slow down,
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they're going to sleep.
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In fact, we had the...
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The older members
of the church said,
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"Well, you shouldn't
just do this for young people.
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We want this too."
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And I found out that
it doesn't work so well
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past 40.
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In fact, it doesn't
work at all because at 2 am,
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most of the folk were crawled up
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on the bench somewhere,
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but the young people, we
could keep them up at night.
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One of the
questions we wrestled with
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about 2 or 3
o'clock in the morning was,
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"When are we most like God."
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"When are we most like God?"
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There's several ways
to approach that question.
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We decided we are most like God
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when you do what
God does the most.
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Well, then what
does God do the most
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in dealing with
the human family?
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I think the thing
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that occupies a lot of
God's time is forgiving
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because there's
so much to forgive,
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and there's so many of
us asking for forgiveness.
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And so it occurred to me
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in talking with the young people
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that maybe we're most
like God when we forgive,
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maybe the most...
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One of the most gracious gifts
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that God can give
us is a forgiving heart
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because He forgives us so much,
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and then of course, we
pass that forgiveness on.
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So one of the things
we want to talk about
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is being like God in
the act of forgiveness
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and how God-like that is.
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To err, human,
to forgive divine.
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You've heard
that over the years.
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Anybody who's
married more than 10 minutes
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knows that,
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sooner or later, you're
going to have to learn to say,
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"I'm sorry," and you're
going to have to forgive.
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You're going to have
to forgive your spouse
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and your spouse is
going to have to forgive you.
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It's kind of baked in the cake.
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You know, once you get married,
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you're going to have
to learn how to forgive
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and to be forgiven.
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So one of the things
we want to talk about
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is what is true forgiveness
as we see it in the Bible,
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and then I want to
put this story out.
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I want to give you a story.
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And we're going to
get back to this later on.
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I used to tell this
earlier in my ministry.
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I haven't done this
in many, many years,
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but I want to just put this
out before we go to our music.
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Suppose Brian and I
are at a convention,
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and I've known Brian...
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You've been here at
3ABN, how many years, Brian?
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Eleven years. Eleven years.
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Okay, so for 11 years, so
we're pretty good friends.
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And we ran out of space,
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so we have to stay in
the same room together.
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I have a habit, as did my dad,
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when I come in, I take my wallet
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and all the cash
out of my pocket,
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and I just dump
it on the dresser.
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I've done that for
years. My dad did that too.
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So I do that habit.
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And one day,
I'm going to pick up
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my wallet and my money,
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and I notice some
of my money is gone.
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Not a great amount
but a significant amount.
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And there was no
one in the room...
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There's no one in
the room with you?
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This is not sounding good.
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It gets better.
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There's no one in the
room but Brian and me.
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So I look...
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You know,
sometimes you can misplace.
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I look under the dresser,
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I'm crawling
around, nothing there.
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And so I hesitantly say,
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"Brian, did you see
any money on the dresser?"
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And Brian says "No."
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I keep looking, maybe the
maid took it or something,
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you know, so I
got to keep looking,
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and I know this money is gone.
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And so after this
futile search, I say,
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"Brian, you sure you
didn't see anything?"
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And he reluctantly says,
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"Yeah, CA, I had this emergency.
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There was
something I wanted to get,
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and I had to get it,
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and I just
didn't have the money,
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so I borrowed it.
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I'll give it back as
soon as I run to the ATM.
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And I'm sorry.
It'll never happen again.
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I apologize."
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And I say to
Brian, "Okay, no problem.
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I forgive you.
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It's forgotten."
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Now that's what I say to
him, but in my mind, I say,
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"You know what, I
think from now on,
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I'll just keep my
wallet in my pocket."
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Now the question is, and
we will get to this later,
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have I forgiven
and have I forgotten?
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Or have I just said I
forgive and I've not forgotten?
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And in that instance,
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am I being Christ-like
or less than Christ-like?
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Because I'm saying
to Brian face-to-face,
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"Hey, man, forgiven, forgotten,"
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but in my mind, I'm saying,
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"Okay, I'm going
to play this thing
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a little closer to the vest now,
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and I'm keeping my
wallet in my pocket."
00:09:06.34\00:09:08.68
I think an
argument could be made
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that I have neither
forgiven nor forgotten.
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So before we end
this hour together,
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let's get back to that.
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I would like to get
your opinions on that.
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All right?
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Very good. Yeah.
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We will go to our music,
then I'm going to come back.
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And who wants to go first?
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Brian and Shelley, who
wants to sort of take it on.
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Let's let
Shelley. We'll let Shelley.
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We'll let the lady go first.
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We'll sort of
loose and let you go.
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As we talk about forgiveness,
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you may want to
take some notes on this
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because you may hear something
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that will encourage
you, that will inspire you,
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that may help you
wrestle with something
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that is fazing you
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in your own life
with forgiveness.
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We've all had opportunities
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to practice
this trade, you know.
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We've had to
forgive some things,
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and couple of them
have been kind of tough.
00:09:45.61\00:09:47.12
And if I get very
sanguine before this is done,
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I'm going to give you
a story of forgiveness
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that I'm to this
day wrestling with
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because sometimes
our love of Christ
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and our Christ-likeness is
tested and tested severely.
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Our music is coming
from Sam Ocampo, a classmate,
00:10:02.80\00:10:05.60
dare I say, of yours, Brian.
00:10:05.63\00:10:06.97
Yes.
00:10:07.04\00:10:08.37
You told us at
Andrews University.
00:10:08.40\00:10:09.94
Wonderful
pianist, very expressive,
00:10:10.01\00:10:12.01
Sam is like a Jaime Jorge.
00:10:12.04\00:10:13.88
You've got to hear him,
but you also got to see him
00:10:13.91\00:10:15.91
because he is a very,
very expressive pianist,
00:10:15.94\00:10:19.28
a very, very
accomplished artist.
00:10:19.31\00:10:21.35
He is going to be playing
"What a Precious Friend".
00:10:21.38\00:10:24.99
Sam Ocampo,
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what a precious
friend, well done.
00:13:29.87\00:13:31.74
A treat to hear and
certainly a treat to watch.
00:13:31.77\00:13:34.44
Thank you so very much.
00:13:34.48\00:13:35.81
Shelley, we were kind
of letting you lead out.
00:13:35.84\00:13:37.55
Again, this is a
quality of spiritual life issue.
00:13:37.58\00:13:42.15
It's not a
doctrinal issue per se,
00:13:42.18\00:13:44.49
so a lot of forgiveness,
00:13:44.52\00:13:46.29
although we are
remanded to forgive in the Bible
00:13:46.32\00:13:49.96
and in the Spirit of Prophecy,
00:13:50.03\00:13:51.46
but how you put legs on that
00:13:51.49\00:13:54.53
varies from
individual to individual.
00:13:54.56\00:13:56.46
You know, that there
is a call to forgive,
00:13:56.50\00:13:58.40
particularly when
forgiveness is requested.
00:13:58.43\00:14:00.94
And we certainly know...
00:14:00.97\00:14:03.04
The Bible says
that God will forgive,
00:14:03.07\00:14:05.27
and He is certain to forgive.
00:14:05.31\00:14:07.38
And in Psalms, David says
that, "He wants to forgive."
00:14:07.41\00:14:10.65
That's something He
wants to do, so we know that.
00:14:10.68\00:14:12.71
But then that's
got to come through us
00:14:12.75\00:14:14.25
to our fellows,
00:14:14.32\00:14:15.65
walk us through
that as you see it?
00:14:15.68\00:14:17.72
Well, my stories are...
00:14:17.75\00:14:20.06
I'd like to do a
back to back story
00:14:20.09\00:14:22.52
from the Old Testament
00:14:22.56\00:14:25.76
because it's my
favorite story on forgiveness.
00:14:25.79\00:14:28.10
And you'll see the point
00:14:28.13\00:14:30.40
that I will make from this story
00:14:30.47\00:14:33.10
is something that
you just mentioned
00:14:33.13\00:14:35.60
in your little
examples, opening up.
00:14:35.64\00:14:39.27
And it starts in 2 Samuel
12 and to set up the story,
00:14:39.31\00:14:45.08
this is the story of David.
00:14:45.11\00:14:47.45
And David as king didn't go out
00:14:47.52\00:14:50.89
when he should have
gone out with his troops,
00:14:50.92\00:14:52.95
but he stayed at his castle.
00:14:52.99\00:14:56.56
He saw Bathsheba bathing,
00:14:56.59\00:14:59.69
he let torrid
lust take over him,
00:14:59.73\00:15:02.66
he brought her to
him, he laid with her,
00:15:02.70\00:15:05.87
she gets pregnant,
00:15:05.90\00:15:07.87
he then to cover
his sin of adultery,
00:15:07.90\00:15:13.11
he sends her
husband, Uriah, off to war.
00:15:13.14\00:15:19.01
When he can't get
Uriah to go to Bathsheba,
00:15:19.05\00:15:21.95
he sends Uriah off to
war and tells his captain,
00:15:21.98\00:15:28.02
"Once put him out there in front
00:15:28.06\00:15:29.79
and then back up
and let him kill him."
00:15:29.82\00:15:32.39
And so that's what
happens as Uriah gets killed.
00:15:32.43\00:15:35.56
So that's the back story.
00:15:35.60\00:15:37.80
Now David is in his palace,
00:15:37.83\00:15:42.30
and God sends the
Prophet Nathan to him.
00:15:42.34\00:15:46.51
And Nathan comes and tells him,
00:15:46.54\00:15:49.28
"King David, there's this
man who had all kinds of sheep,
00:15:49.31\00:15:54.85
but he had guests coming over,
00:15:54.88\00:15:56.38
and he decided he
didn't want to kill
00:15:56.42\00:16:00.19
and cook one of
his sheep for them,
00:16:00.26\00:16:02.56
but rather he goes to a man
00:16:02.59\00:16:04.73
who only has one
precious little lamb,
00:16:04.76\00:16:07.40
takes that one,
00:16:07.43\00:16:08.76
kills it to
serve up to his guests,
00:16:08.80\00:16:11.23
what should we do?"
00:16:11.27\00:16:12.87
And King David
says, "Off with his head."
00:16:12.90\00:16:16.54
You know, basically,
00:16:16.57\00:16:17.91
actually, what
he says in verse 5,
00:16:17.94\00:16:20.68
it said, "David's
anger was greatly aroused
00:16:20.71\00:16:23.48
against the man.
00:16:23.55\00:16:24.88
And he said to
Nathan, 'As the Lord lives,
00:16:24.91\00:16:28.25
the man who has done
this shall surely die.'"
00:16:28.28\00:16:32.49
So then Nathan now does
a little finger pointing.
00:16:32.52\00:16:35.96
And he says, "You are the man."
00:16:35.99\00:16:39.79
So what we see here is obviously
00:16:39.83\00:16:43.26
David didn't know
this principle of forgive
00:16:43.30\00:16:46.23
and so the Lord will forgive you
00:16:46.27\00:16:47.64
because we don't see...
00:16:47.67\00:16:49.37
David was seeing the
toothpick in this man,
00:16:49.40\00:16:52.07
and he had a telephone...
00:16:52.11\00:16:53.81
In this man's eye, and he
had a telephone pole in his own.
00:16:53.88\00:16:57.05
Here he was guilty
of adultery and murder.
00:16:57.08\00:17:01.08
And so what happens
now is let's fast-forward
00:17:01.12\00:17:06.49
to Psalm 51
00:17:06.52\00:17:08.39
because Psalm 51 starts off,
00:17:08.42\00:17:10.33
and it says "To
the chief musician,
00:17:10.36\00:17:12.86
a psalm of David,
00:17:12.89\00:17:14.33
when Nathan the
Prophet went to him
00:17:14.36\00:17:16.77
after he'd gone to Bathsheba."
00:17:16.80\00:17:18.80
So this is after
the confrontation.
00:17:18.83\00:17:21.40
And I love this psalm
because you see in this psalm
00:17:21.44\00:17:25.37
all five steps of repentance.
00:17:25.41\00:17:27.18
He recognized that he sinned,
godly sorrow seizes his heart,
00:17:27.21\00:17:31.58
he confesses his sin,
00:17:31.61\00:17:33.42
and he receives
God's forgiveness,
00:17:33.45\00:17:35.72
and he's promised
to change his conduct.
00:17:35.75\00:17:39.02
So here he's saying,
"Have mercy upon me, O God,
00:17:39.05\00:17:41.92
according to
Your loving-kindness,
00:17:41.96\00:17:43.73
according to Your
multitude of Your tender mercies
00:17:43.76\00:17:47.66
blot out my transgressions,
00:17:47.70\00:17:49.40
wash me
thoroughly from my iniquity
00:17:49.43\00:17:52.67
and cleanse me from my sin.
00:17:52.70\00:17:54.97
For I acknowledge
my transgressions,
00:17:55.00\00:17:57.74
my sin is always
before me against You,
00:17:57.77\00:18:01.08
You only, have I sinned."
00:18:01.11\00:18:04.05
So David goes
forward, and he's saying,
00:18:04.08\00:18:06.31
"Oh, purge me, Lord,
00:18:06.35\00:18:07.98
create in me a
clean heart, Father,
00:18:08.02\00:18:10.52
and renew a
steadfast spirit in me.
00:18:10.59\00:18:13.15
Don't take Your Holy
Spirit away from me."
00:18:13.19\00:18:16.83
And then as he's praying along,
00:18:16.86\00:18:20.10
he says, "Restore to me
the joy of Your salvation,
00:18:20.13\00:18:22.90
uphold me by
Your generous Spirit,"
00:18:22.93\00:18:25.20
in verse 13,
00:18:25.23\00:18:27.17
"then I will teach transgressors
00:18:27.24\00:18:30.01
Your ways and sinners
shall be converted to You."
00:18:30.04\00:18:34.31
The reason I love this story
00:18:34.34\00:18:38.78
is because of its
conclusion in 1 Kings 14,
00:18:38.81\00:18:43.99
so let's turn there.
00:18:44.02\00:18:46.59
And in 1 Kings 14,
00:18:46.62\00:18:51.06
we're going to see a
picture of forgiveness,
00:18:51.09\00:18:53.70
of God's forgiveness that
is painted so beautifully,
00:18:53.73\00:18:59.27
and there's such a
power punch to this.
00:18:59.30\00:19:02.60
What's happened here,
King Jeroboam has a son,
00:19:02.64\00:19:07.28
Abijah, he's sick.
00:19:07.31\00:19:09.64
Jeroboam says,
"Hey," to his wife,
00:19:09.68\00:19:12.41
"disguise yourself
and go before Ahijah..."
00:19:12.45\00:19:17.75
It's kind of confusing.
00:19:17.79\00:19:19.35
Abijah, Ahijah is then
the prophet who is blind.
00:19:19.39\00:19:24.39
And he says,
00:19:24.43\00:19:25.76
"Go find out,
enquire the Prophet,
00:19:25.79\00:19:27.60
but I don't want him to
know that you're my wife."
00:19:27.63\00:19:31.07
So he goes,
00:19:31.10\00:19:32.83
and God tells the
prophet in advance,
00:19:32.87\00:19:35.54
"Hey, this is what's happening,
00:19:35.57\00:19:37.04
she's going to
come disguised to you.
00:19:37.11\00:19:39.61
And here is what I
want you to tell her."
00:19:39.64\00:19:44.55
So she's in his presence,
and then the prophet says,
00:19:44.58\00:19:48.68
"According to the
words of the Lord,"
00:19:48.72\00:19:52.65
and this is 1 Kings
14:7, "Go, tell Jeroboam,
00:19:52.69\00:19:58.09
'Thus says the
Lord God of Israel
00:19:58.13\00:20:00.83
because I exalted
you from among the people
00:20:00.90\00:20:04.17
and made you ruler
over My people of Israel
00:20:04.20\00:20:07.04
and tore the kingdom
away from the house of David
00:20:07.07\00:20:09.77
and gave it to
you, and yet, Jeroboam,
00:20:09.80\00:20:14.64
you have not been
as My servant David
00:20:14.68\00:20:19.85
who kept my commandments,
00:20:19.88\00:20:22.68
who followed Me with
all of his heart to do
00:20:22.72\00:20:27.49
only what was right in My eyes."
00:20:27.56\00:20:33.70
This is after David's death.
00:20:33.73\00:20:37.37
This was after
David committed adultery,
00:20:37.40\00:20:40.44
David committed
murder, what does James say,
00:20:40.47\00:20:43.61
"You break one commandment,
you break them all."
00:20:43.64\00:20:46.71
And what is God
saying here, God is saying,
00:20:46.78\00:20:51.55
"David kept all My commandments.
00:20:51.58\00:20:54.15
He followed Me
with all his heart.
00:20:54.22\00:20:55.55
He did only what
was right in My eyes."
00:20:55.58\00:20:57.62
What this shows to me
00:20:57.65\00:21:00.06
is that God forgets
00:21:00.09\00:21:04.96
what God forgives.
00:21:04.99\00:21:08.30
He puts all of our sins into...
00:21:08.33\00:21:12.97
He casts them into
the depths of the sea,
00:21:13.00\00:21:15.80
and for His own sake,
00:21:15.84\00:21:18.27
He says, "Your transgressions,
I will remember no more."
00:21:18.31\00:21:21.91
I think this is beautiful
00:21:21.94\00:21:23.68
because let me
show you something,
00:21:23.75\00:21:25.98
as the Holy
Spirit then is inspiring
00:21:26.01\00:21:28.25
the writer of Kings here,
00:21:28.28\00:21:29.98
here he's quoting God.
00:21:30.02\00:21:32.02
God is saying,
00:21:32.05\00:21:33.49
"David kept all My commandments,
00:21:33.56\00:21:35.02
did only what was
right in My eyes."
00:21:35.06\00:21:37.33
But then in the next
chapter in 1 Kings 15,
00:21:37.36\00:21:42.33
the Holy Spirit
inspires the writer
00:21:42.36\00:21:45.00
so that we're not thinking,
00:21:45.03\00:21:46.37
"Oh, the writer didn't
know about what happened
00:21:46.40\00:21:50.51
with David and
Uriah the Hittite.
00:21:50.54\00:21:53.21
The Holy Spirit
now inspires the writer
00:21:53.24\00:21:56.41
who's just quoted
00:21:56.44\00:21:57.88
what God had to say
to say this in verse 4.
00:21:57.91\00:22:01.82
I'll just read verse 5.
00:22:01.85\00:22:03.69
He says, "Because David did
00:22:03.72\00:22:07.96
what was right in
the eyes of the Lord
00:22:07.99\00:22:10.43
and had not turned
aside from anything
00:22:10.46\00:22:13.43
that He, God, had commanded
him all the days of his life
00:22:13.50\00:22:17.57
except in the matter
of Uriah the Hittite."
00:22:17.60\00:22:22.47
So the Holy Spirit
inspires the writer
00:22:22.50\00:22:25.44
to include the history,
00:22:25.47\00:22:27.58
but God didn't
include the history.
00:22:27.61\00:22:29.14
Precisely. Yeah.
00:22:29.18\00:22:32.08
And so in
response to your question
00:22:32.11\00:22:35.02
that you set up,
00:22:35.05\00:22:36.92
if love keeps
no record of wrongs
00:22:36.99\00:22:41.52
and when we have truly forgiven,
00:22:41.56\00:22:43.73
we're not going to
be bringing up the past
00:22:43.76\00:22:46.06
and rubbing that
into somebody's face,
00:22:46.09\00:22:48.46
as God did not with David.
00:22:48.50\00:22:51.00
I think this is...
00:22:51.03\00:22:52.37
To me, that's exciting.
00:22:52.40\00:22:53.74
Shelley, I want to
just hit the pause button
00:22:53.77\00:22:55.10
there for just a moment
00:22:55.14\00:22:56.47
'cause a number of
things popped out of me.
00:22:56.50\00:22:57.84
In Jeremiah 31,
00:22:57.87\00:22:59.37
it's in the
30s, 33, 34, He says,
00:22:59.41\00:23:03.28
"I will forgive your sins
and remember them no more.
00:23:03.35\00:23:08.18
I'm not going to
remember them anymore."
00:23:08.22\00:23:09.98
So to me, it says,
00:23:10.02\00:23:11.89
if you are
constantly rehearsing your sins,
00:23:11.92\00:23:14.69
and if they're constantly
being washed before your face,
00:23:14.72\00:23:17.63
that's a trick of the devil
to keep you under oppression
00:23:17.66\00:23:21.63
and to keep you in
bondage because God says,
00:23:21.66\00:23:25.17
"I'm not going to remember them.
00:23:25.20\00:23:26.53
I'm not going..."
00:23:26.57\00:23:27.90
And that's such a fine example.
00:23:27.94\00:23:31.04
And this is what's
important about that story.
00:23:31.07\00:23:33.78
Very quickly, really,
00:23:33.81\00:23:35.64
the Uriah thing and
the Bathsheba marriage,
00:23:35.68\00:23:40.62
David never fully got out
00:23:40.65\00:23:42.48
from under the
consequences of that experience.
00:23:42.52\00:23:45.52
They followed him
till the day he died.
00:23:45.55\00:23:47.86
He never...
00:23:47.89\00:23:49.22
But in heaven, God is
saying, "I have forgiven you.
00:23:49.26\00:23:53.13
I have forgotten that.
00:23:53.16\00:23:54.50
You're a saved person now."
00:23:54.53\00:23:55.86
Sometimes we can do things,
and the tentacles follow us...
00:23:55.90\00:23:58.70
There's consequences for sins.
00:23:58.73\00:24:00.07
There are
consequences that we don't...
00:24:00.14\00:24:01.47
But in heaven, God is
saying, "I have forgiven you."
00:24:01.50\00:24:04.21
Say, a young
woman makes a mistake
00:24:04.24\00:24:06.78
in the backseat
of a car with a guy,
00:24:06.81\00:24:10.78
and the next morning, she says,
00:24:10.85\00:24:13.18
"Lord, I am sorry for
what I did last night.
00:24:13.21\00:24:16.79
I am truly sorry."
00:24:16.82\00:24:18.15
Now she doesn't
know, at that point,
00:24:18.19\00:24:20.26
that she's got a
nine-month journey
00:24:20.29\00:24:21.86
in front of her,
00:24:21.89\00:24:23.22
and there's going to be a child,
00:24:23.26\00:24:24.59
but as God waits for that
child to come to forgive her,
00:24:24.63\00:24:27.30
now we don't see the
consequences of that night
00:24:27.33\00:24:29.90
till several months later.
00:24:29.93\00:24:31.27
It's obviously
something happened
00:24:31.30\00:24:32.63
a few months ago,
00:24:32.67\00:24:34.04
but she's already
given her to the Lord.
00:24:34.07\00:24:35.57
When does the Lord
forgive her? Immediately.
00:24:35.60\00:24:37.91
Immediately, immediately,
immediately, so God can say,
00:24:37.94\00:24:43.18
"She's a child
after My own heart,"
00:24:43.21\00:24:44.55
because of her
response to her sin.
00:24:44.58\00:24:46.82
She saw her sin, she repented
of her sin, and God forgave.
00:24:46.85\00:24:49.98
And that's an important thing
00:24:50.02\00:24:51.82
'cause so many people are
dragging this load of stuff
00:24:51.85\00:24:54.52
behind them for things
00:24:54.56\00:24:55.89
that God has already
forgiven them for, Shelley.
00:24:55.92\00:24:58.66
You haven't really
hit true repentance
00:24:58.69\00:25:01.50
when you're like that
00:25:01.53\00:25:02.86
because I believe very strongly,
00:25:02.90\00:25:04.30
there's five
steps to repentance.
00:25:04.33\00:25:06.07
There's the recognition of sin,
00:25:06.10\00:25:07.87
all have sinned and fallen
short of the glory of the Lord.
00:25:07.90\00:25:10.84
There is then the godly
sorrow that brings repentance.
00:25:10.91\00:25:15.04
You know, the Holy
Spirit is working on your heart.
00:25:15.08\00:25:18.11
The confession of sin,
00:25:18.15\00:25:19.48
and, boy, don't ever get
tired of confessing your sin
00:25:19.51\00:25:22.45
because it is the clearing house
00:25:22.48\00:25:24.19
in the conscience,
00:25:24.22\00:25:25.55
but a lot of
people will stop there,
00:25:25.59\00:25:29.19
and I'm not saying once
you've confessed to sin,
00:25:29.22\00:25:31.29
you don't have to keep
confessing the same sin.
00:25:31.33\00:25:34.23
A lot of people will stop there,
00:25:34.30\00:25:36.50
and they don't
receive God's forgiveness.
00:25:36.53\00:25:39.57
We've got to
remember that He tells us
00:25:39.60\00:25:41.64
that His mercies
are new every morning.
00:25:41.67\00:25:44.31
And when He says in
Isaiah 43:18 and 19,
00:25:44.34\00:25:50.85
He says, "Don't
dwell on the past.
00:25:50.88\00:25:53.15
See, I'm doing a
new thing in you,
00:25:53.18\00:25:54.85
and it will
spring forth suddenly.
00:25:54.88\00:25:56.79
Do you not perceive it?"
00:25:56.82\00:25:58.15
You got to perceive it, yeah.
00:25:58.19\00:25:59.52
So we have to
receive God's forgiveness,
00:25:59.55\00:26:02.56
and we have to forgive ourselves
00:26:02.59\00:26:04.49
to do that actually.
00:26:04.53\00:26:05.86
Don't do
condemnation on yourself
00:26:05.89\00:26:07.50
that God has not put there.
00:26:07.53\00:26:08.86
Absolutely.
00:26:08.90\00:26:10.23
There is no condemnation
if you're in Christ Jesus.
00:26:10.27\00:26:11.60
Right.
00:26:11.63\00:26:12.97
You've confessed
it, He's forgiven you.
00:26:13.00\00:26:14.34
I don't believe it until
we've received His forgiveness
00:26:14.37\00:26:16.17
that we can really make
that U-turn that's necessary.
00:26:16.20\00:26:19.87
You know, 'cause we're
still living in the past.
00:26:19.91\00:26:21.24
Agreed.
00:26:21.28\00:26:22.61
All right, now
one more quick thing.
00:26:22.64\00:26:25.11
Here we've got
the story of David
00:26:25.15\00:26:28.22
whom God called a
man after His own heart,
00:26:28.25\00:26:31.89
and he sinned in a major way,
but we see God's forgiveness.
00:26:31.92\00:26:36.06
Didn't God forgive
and forget with David
00:26:36.09\00:26:39.46
because David
was such a good guy
00:26:39.49\00:26:42.10
and loved God so much.
00:26:42.13\00:26:44.60
I want to show you a
contrast in the story
00:26:44.63\00:26:48.27
because this is one
of my favorite pictures
00:26:48.30\00:26:52.21
of grace in the Old Testament.
00:26:52.24\00:26:55.61
Hezekiah had a son,
00:26:55.64\00:26:58.98
and his son was named Manasseh.
00:26:59.01\00:27:01.68
And we find Manasseh
00:27:01.72\00:27:03.05
and his story
begins in 2 Kings 21.
00:27:03.08\00:27:07.26
It abruptly ends,
00:27:07.29\00:27:08.62
but then it picks up
again in 2 Chronicles 33.
00:27:08.66\00:27:12.29
Let me...
00:27:12.33\00:27:13.70
If you don't know
about King Manasseh,
00:27:13.73\00:27:15.70
he became a king
00:27:15.73\00:27:17.07
when he was 12
years old, very immature,
00:27:17.10\00:27:19.00
fell under the
influence of the pagan
00:27:19.03\00:27:21.74
and heathen religions.
00:27:21.77\00:27:24.34
He practiced witchcraft,
00:27:24.37\00:27:27.18
he went to
spiritists and mediums.
00:27:27.21\00:27:29.41
He did all kinds of evil things.
00:27:29.44\00:27:32.61
He initiated the practice
00:27:32.65\00:27:35.35
of sacrificing
children to Molech.
00:27:35.38\00:27:39.12
His own children.
00:27:39.15\00:27:40.49
And then it says that he...
00:27:40.56\00:27:44.06
They called him, by the way,
00:27:44.13\00:27:45.46
he was dubbed
the Nero of Palestine
00:27:45.49\00:27:49.23
because he killed so many people
00:27:49.26\00:27:52.27
that they said that the blood
just ran throughout Jerusalem.
00:27:52.30\00:27:56.40
All right, so God sends Isaiah
and Micah to talk with him
00:27:56.44\00:28:01.91
and reason with him.
00:28:01.94\00:28:03.85
According to history,
00:28:03.88\00:28:05.78
Manasseh is the one
that sawed Isaiah in half.
00:28:05.81\00:28:08.55
In half, correct.
00:28:08.58\00:28:09.92
So he snubbed his
nose at God's prophets,
00:28:09.95\00:28:13.79
he snubbed his nose
at God, so what happens?
00:28:13.86\00:28:17.76
God allows the Babylonian king
to come down to capture him,
00:28:17.79\00:28:21.80
to take him away in
iron bonds and fetters.
00:28:21.83\00:28:26.03
Hooks on his nose. Yeah.
00:28:26.07\00:28:28.00
Led by a rope with a hook
that was either in his nose
00:28:28.04\00:28:31.84
or in his jaw, one of the two,
00:28:31.87\00:28:33.98
but just can you imagine
being dragged out the king.
00:28:34.01\00:28:37.55
He's lost all of his dignity,
and then when he is locked up,
00:28:37.58\00:28:43.82
and he's in such a bad way,
00:28:43.89\00:28:45.35
and he's being
persecuted by his captors,
00:28:45.39\00:28:48.46
he suddenly comes to his senses.
00:28:48.49\00:28:50.93
He cries out to the
one and only true God.
00:28:50.96\00:28:55.40
He asks for forgiveness,
00:28:55.43\00:28:58.50
an apostate,
00:28:58.53\00:29:00.44
someone who had rejected,
resisted the Holy Spirit,
00:29:00.47\00:29:04.87
rejected God
over and over again,
00:29:04.91\00:29:09.01
God hears in
heaven, and He answers.
00:29:09.04\00:29:13.82
I just find this so amazing
00:29:13.85\00:29:16.38
that once Manasseh
humbled himself and repented.
00:29:16.42\00:29:21.36
Then I want to go
to 2 Chronicles 33:12
00:29:21.39\00:29:26.19
because God then
not only does He hear,
00:29:26.23\00:29:33.07
He answers, and He restores
the kingdom of Judah to him.
00:29:33.10\00:29:38.97
2 Chronicles,
what'd I say, 33:12.
00:29:39.01\00:29:42.61
I love this story because we see
00:29:42.64\00:29:45.08
that God doesn't just forgive us
00:29:45.11\00:29:47.65
because we're good,
00:29:47.68\00:29:49.55
but that God's
forgiveness is a choice,
00:29:49.58\00:29:53.66
and when we cry out
to Him, 2 Chronicles,
00:29:53.69\00:29:58.53
I hope I've got the
right chapter here, 33:12.
00:29:58.56\00:30:02.30
I'm on the wrong page.
00:30:02.33\00:30:03.97
And it says...
00:30:04.00\00:30:05.33
"Now when he was in affliction?"
00:30:05.37\00:30:06.70
Yes, "Now when he
was in affliction,"
00:30:06.74\00:30:08.87
speaking of Manasseh,
00:30:08.90\00:30:10.24
"he implored the Lord his God
00:30:10.31\00:30:12.14
and humbled himself greatly
before the God of his fathers
00:30:12.17\00:30:16.04
and prayed to Him,
00:30:16.08\00:30:17.45
and He, God,
received his entreaty,
00:30:17.48\00:30:21.92
heard his supplication,
00:30:21.95\00:30:23.99
and brought him
back to Jerusalem
00:30:24.02\00:30:27.76
into His kingdom,
00:30:27.79\00:30:30.93
then Manasseh knew
that the Lord was God."
00:30:30.96\00:30:36.30
I just think that that
is such a beautiful picture
00:30:36.33\00:30:39.93
of the heart of God,
00:30:39.97\00:30:41.30
the grace of God
'cause people will say,
00:30:41.34\00:30:43.17
"Oh, where do you see
grace in the Old Testament?
00:30:43.20\00:30:45.11
Are you kidding?"
00:30:45.14\00:30:48.14
But, you know, the sad thing is,
00:30:48.18\00:30:49.64
once again, consequences.
00:30:49.68\00:30:51.01
Now Manasseh tried to undo
every bad thing he had done.
00:30:51.05\00:30:57.59
He broke down all the altars,
built an altar only to God,
00:30:57.62\00:31:02.02
but he could never turn
the residents of Jerusalem away
00:31:02.06\00:31:08.53
in his lifetime
from their paganism
00:31:08.56\00:31:11.23
and their heathenism.
00:31:11.27\00:31:12.60
If you look at
the fall of Jerusalem,
00:31:12.63\00:31:15.77
the idolatry of
the Northern Kingdom,
00:31:15.80\00:31:18.64
a direct line can
be traced to Manasseh.
00:31:18.67\00:31:22.14
What is
interesting, after all of that,
00:31:22.18\00:31:24.58
a fellow who offers his
own children and sacrifice
00:31:24.61\00:31:27.32
as an act of worship to God.
00:31:27.35\00:31:30.39
Molech, to Molech.
00:31:30.42\00:31:32.85
I'm sorry, to Molech, to Molech,
00:31:32.89\00:31:35.62
but as an act of
worship is my point.
00:31:35.66\00:31:37.23
To his "god".
00:31:37.26\00:31:39.39
To his god, small G.
00:31:39.43\00:31:41.03
A small G. A very small G.
00:31:41.06\00:31:44.20
He is saved,
00:31:44.27\00:31:45.60
but he starts a chain
of circumstances that...
00:31:45.63\00:31:47.37
That's right.
00:31:47.44\00:31:48.77
And that's the thing about...
00:31:48.80\00:31:50.14
You know, when
you come to the Lord,
00:31:50.17\00:31:51.57
the only regret you really
have that you didn't come sooner
00:31:51.61\00:31:54.01
because a lot of times,
00:31:54.08\00:31:55.41
stuff gets started
00:31:55.44\00:31:56.85
and the
consequences of those things
00:31:56.88\00:31:58.75
have to be played out
00:31:58.78\00:32:00.12
even though you
are, at that point,
00:32:00.15\00:32:01.48
in right standing with the Lord,
00:32:01.52\00:32:02.85
which encourages us,
00:32:02.88\00:32:05.42
come to the Lord
as soon as you can
00:32:05.45\00:32:06.89
'cause that keeps you
from a lot of regrets.
00:32:06.96\00:32:09.12
I'm working on a book
00:32:09.16\00:32:10.53
of these two stories
called Arguing with God.
00:32:10.56\00:32:12.36
His dad did the arguing,
00:32:12.39\00:32:13.73
and God gave him 15
more years and that's...
00:32:13.80\00:32:15.50
He was doing that 15 extra years
00:32:15.53\00:32:17.07
that Manasseh was born,
so had he died like God said,
00:32:17.10\00:32:20.84
"Prepare your house
and just lay it on a die,"
00:32:20.87\00:32:23.17
Manasseh would not have come,
00:32:23.20\00:32:24.57
but Lord yielded,
00:32:24.61\00:32:26.07
and of course,
we got this story,
00:32:26.11\00:32:27.61
but I think it's
an important point.
00:32:27.64\00:32:29.14
You cannot run too far,
00:32:29.18\00:32:30.55
you cannot run too fast
to outrun God's forgiveness.
00:32:30.58\00:32:33.42
And it's a
beautiful story, Shelley.
00:32:33.45\00:32:34.78
And I just love the
contrast that if David was a man
00:32:34.82\00:32:38.09
after God's own
heart, and you can think,
00:32:38.12\00:32:39.75
"Well, yeah, he
slipped and fell,
00:32:39.79\00:32:41.46
God forgave and forgot."
00:32:41.49\00:32:43.63
But here as well, God
is forgiving an apostate,
00:32:43.66\00:32:48.63
one of the worst.
00:32:48.66\00:32:51.20
One of the worst.
00:32:51.23\00:32:52.93
Well said, Brian?
00:32:52.97\00:32:54.30
Well, when I
think of forgiveness,
00:32:54.34\00:32:57.67
I think of is there
anything in the Bible
00:32:57.71\00:33:02.78
that there
isn't a sacrifice for.
00:33:02.81\00:33:06.08
You know, Hebrews says,
"For if we sin willfully..."
00:33:06.11\00:33:10.59
That's Hebrews 10:20,
"If we sin willfully..."
00:33:10.62\00:33:16.19
That's a whole lot of...
00:33:16.22\00:33:18.99
I mean, you know,
00:33:19.03\00:33:20.40
there's the accidental
catching or surprised,
00:33:20.43\00:33:23.47
but there's a fair
bit of sinning willfully
00:33:23.50\00:33:26.50
that happens on earth today.
00:33:26.53\00:33:29.07
"If we sin willfully
after we have received
00:33:29.10\00:33:32.17
the knowledge of the truth,
00:33:32.21\00:33:34.64
there no longer
remains a sacrifice for sin."
00:33:34.68\00:33:39.15
And then that text kind
of leads you back to a story
00:33:39.18\00:33:42.72
in the Old
Testament again in Numbers
00:33:42.75\00:33:46.79
about a man picking
up sticks on the Sabbath,
00:33:46.86\00:33:52.29
when God just had said,
00:33:52.33\00:33:53.93
"Don't pick up
sticks on the Sabbath."
00:33:54.00\00:33:57.17
You know?
00:33:57.20\00:33:58.63
And,
00:33:58.67\00:34:02.14
you know, this
is for Christians,
00:34:02.17\00:34:04.01
this is at least
for me growing up,
00:34:04.04\00:34:06.51
was a bit
worrisome or worried me.
00:34:06.54\00:34:10.25
You know, is there...
00:34:10.28\00:34:12.51
There were certain
sins in the Old Testament
00:34:12.55\00:34:14.85
that no
sacrifice was offered for.
00:34:14.88\00:34:17.65
One was murder, David murdered,
00:34:17.69\00:34:20.96
one was adultery,
00:34:20.99\00:34:22.56
David committed
adultery, no sacrifice.
00:34:22.59\00:34:27.03
And then Sabbath
breaking was another one.
00:34:27.10\00:34:30.37
And so how
00:34:30.40\00:34:32.97
when there's no
provision in the law
00:34:33.00\00:34:35.04
that you can
read for a sacrifice
00:34:35.07\00:34:38.01
for these sins,
except one, lose their life.
00:34:38.04\00:34:41.78
Well, that's, you know...
00:34:41.81\00:34:43.75
What do you do with that?
00:34:43.78\00:34:45.41
Well, what
Shelley just did for us
00:34:45.45\00:34:47.92
is she took us on a case study
00:34:47.95\00:34:50.02
that you won't find it
in the letter of the law
00:34:50.09\00:34:53.36
instead you have
to go to case law
00:34:53.39\00:34:55.89
or a case study and say,
00:34:55.92\00:34:57.99
"Well, how did God
treat someone who murdered?
00:34:58.03\00:35:02.10
Was there any
forgiveness for a murderer?"
00:35:02.13\00:35:05.10
And you go, "Oh,
thank you, Lord."
00:35:05.13\00:35:07.70
Amen.
00:35:07.74\00:35:09.07
You know, was there
any forgiveness for someone
00:35:09.10\00:35:11.34
who committed adultery?
00:35:11.37\00:35:13.48
Because technically,
00:35:13.51\00:35:14.84
they both should have
been taken out and stoned.
00:35:14.88\00:35:17.75
Not a great way to die,
00:35:17.78\00:35:19.55
you know, at
least that's the way
00:35:19.58\00:35:21.32
the law read or at least him,
00:35:21.35\00:35:23.49
if she was sort
of an innocent party
00:35:23.52\00:35:26.05
and got dragged into
this against her will
00:35:26.09\00:35:28.46
in some way shape or form,
00:35:28.49\00:35:30.03
at least he should
have been taken out,
00:35:30.06\00:35:34.00
well, he was the king,
00:35:34.03\00:35:36.16
but wait a minute, the law says
00:35:36.20\00:35:37.57
there's no respecter of persons,
00:35:37.60\00:35:40.17
doesn't matter if
they're rich or poor,
00:35:40.24\00:35:42.30
whether they were
king or wasn't a king,
00:35:42.34\00:35:44.54
judges were
supposed to be impartial
00:35:44.57\00:35:47.18
in administering the law.
00:35:47.21\00:35:49.71
So I am really
grateful for case study.
00:35:49.74\00:35:52.88
Amen. Amen.
00:35:52.91\00:35:55.58
And something else
about forgiveness that I've...
00:35:55.62\00:35:58.65
Do you have to
feel warm and fuzzy
00:35:58.69\00:36:03.53
towards someone
who has wronged you
00:36:03.56\00:36:05.96
when you forgive them?
00:36:05.99\00:36:07.33
Do you have to get to the point
00:36:07.40\00:36:08.73
where you have no ill
feeling or no emotions
00:36:08.76\00:36:13.97
that are negative
or in other words,
00:36:14.04\00:36:16.00
warm and fuzzy to them
and still have forgiven?
00:36:16.04\00:36:18.91
Good point. Okay.
00:36:18.94\00:36:20.58
Does it take warm
and fuzzies to forgive?
00:36:20.61\00:36:23.28
Or is it an act of
the will of a decision,
00:36:23.35\00:36:29.35
and it's done even though
00:36:29.38\00:36:31.45
maybe you
emotionally haven't healed
00:36:31.49\00:36:34.06
or recovered from that?
00:36:34.09\00:36:36.66
I'm certainly hoping
that that is the case
00:36:40.70\00:36:43.77
because their effects,
00:36:46.94\00:36:48.50
I mean, there are people
00:36:48.54\00:36:51.14
who have been
horrifically wronged,
00:36:51.17\00:36:54.68
and maybe emotionally,
00:36:54.71\00:36:56.38
they'll never totally
recover this side of heaven,
00:36:56.41\00:37:01.42
but they can still forgive,
00:37:01.45\00:37:03.89
even though
emotionally they are scarred,
00:37:03.92\00:37:07.46
yeah, but they
can still forgive.
00:37:07.49\00:37:11.19
And so that's...
00:37:11.23\00:37:12.83
Some people feel like,
00:37:12.86\00:37:14.20
"Unless I can feel really good
00:37:14.23\00:37:15.73
toward the
person who wronged me,
00:37:15.76\00:37:18.63
I have really
haven't forgiven them."
00:37:18.67\00:37:20.34
And I go, "No."
00:37:20.37\00:37:21.94
If you have said, "Lord,
00:37:21.97\00:37:26.47
even though I don't
feel like forgiving them,
00:37:26.51\00:37:28.94
I have forgiven them,
00:37:28.98\00:37:30.95
and You would have to
work with me on my feelings,"
00:37:30.98\00:37:33.08
because, you know...
00:37:33.11\00:37:34.45
Let me ask you a question,
00:37:34.48\00:37:35.82
both of you can
weigh in on this.
00:37:35.85\00:37:37.19
We use a term forget,
00:37:37.22\00:37:39.72
what does that actually
mean on an operational level?
00:37:39.75\00:37:43.26
Because if you do me wrong,
00:37:43.29\00:37:46.90
the thought of
that is still there,
00:37:46.93\00:37:49.73
so what does it mean to forget?
00:37:49.76\00:37:53.34
Let me just share a quick story.
00:37:53.37\00:37:56.74
When JD and I, just
before we were married,
00:37:56.81\00:38:00.08
we were in
business with a gentleman
00:38:00.11\00:38:02.61
who put us $250, 000
in the debt, long story,
00:38:02.64\00:38:05.98
but then the man
threatened my life,
00:38:06.01\00:38:07.72
and there were a lot
of things that happened.
00:38:07.75\00:38:09.85
And I found myself, for
the first time in my life,
00:38:09.88\00:38:12.99
hating someone.
00:38:13.02\00:38:15.09
I mean, he had
destroyed us financially,
00:38:15.12\00:38:18.63
we were
responsible for all this debt
00:38:18.66\00:38:20.60
because it was all in our name,
00:38:20.63\00:38:21.96
and here we are getting married,
00:38:22.00\00:38:23.70
$250, 000 in debt,
00:38:23.77\00:38:25.53
I've got, you know, reports out
00:38:25.57\00:38:28.80
that he's got a
hit squad out on me.
00:38:28.84\00:38:31.81
And I am
traipsing all over Europe
00:38:31.84\00:38:34.54
looking over my
shoulder during this time.
00:38:34.58\00:38:36.88
And I truly felt hatred
for the first time in my life.
00:38:36.95\00:38:40.62
I came back,
00:38:40.65\00:38:42.28
and I when I got back to
the States safe and sound,
00:38:42.32\00:38:45.52
I was praying and asking
God for forgiveness of my sin,
00:38:45.55\00:38:50.03
and God says,
"I will forgive you
00:38:50.06\00:38:52.69
as you forgive him."
00:38:52.73\00:38:54.33
And it was like,
"How can You expect me
00:38:54.36\00:38:57.63
to forgive this person
who's done all of this,
00:38:57.67\00:39:01.74
and he is, you know, he's
not asking for forgiveness?"
00:39:01.77\00:39:07.48
I kind of always felt like
00:39:07.51\00:39:08.84
they had to ask for
forgiveness, you know.
00:39:08.88\00:39:10.98
And so God just kept
impressing upon me, and I said,
00:39:11.01\00:39:16.45
"Well, Lord, I don't
know how to forgive him."
00:39:16.48\00:39:18.52
So I asked Him, "You're
going to have to give it to me."
00:39:18.55\00:39:21.69
And God impressed upon
me, "Pray for his salvation."
00:39:21.72\00:39:25.83
I didn't want to
pray for his salvation.
00:39:25.86\00:39:28.16
I didn't want him to
be saved, I mean, I was...
00:39:28.20\00:39:31.23
I hated this man.
00:39:31.27\00:39:32.70
He didn't deserve
salvation. You're right.
00:39:32.73\00:39:35.57
You know what
I'm saying? Oh, yeah.
00:39:35.60\00:39:36.94
We would know
what was that. Yeah.
00:39:37.01\00:39:38.34
Okay, here we go.
00:39:38.37\00:39:39.71
That came from Shelley...
00:39:39.74\00:39:41.08
Right, right.
00:39:41.11\00:39:42.44
Yes, and I mean,
00:39:42.48\00:39:43.81
no more than I
deserve salvation,
00:39:43.85\00:39:45.18
so finally, I said to
the Lord, "Okay, I will.
00:39:45.21\00:39:49.32
I'll pray for his salvation,
You know I don't mean it."
00:39:49.35\00:39:53.66
But I prayed every day
for this man's salvation.
00:39:53.69\00:39:56.93
He was of a different faith.
00:39:56.96\00:40:00.50
I mean, he was Muslim, okay.
00:40:00.53\00:40:02.86
Anyway, I'm praying every night
00:40:02.90\00:40:04.27
for this man's
faith or salvation.
00:40:04.30\00:40:08.07
And one night,
I'm praying in tears.
00:40:08.10\00:40:10.71
One night, it was so real.
00:40:13.04\00:40:15.51
And I realized
God had put His love,
00:40:15.54\00:40:19.18
He was helping me see
this man through His eyes
00:40:19.21\00:40:22.82
as the lost and
suffering person he was.
00:40:22.85\00:40:26.32
And as I prayed, it was...
00:40:26.35\00:40:30.86
I mean, I prayed
it with all my heart,
00:40:30.93\00:40:34.03
and I didn't even
have to say I forgave him,
00:40:34.10\00:40:36.36
I'd forgiven him.
00:40:36.40\00:40:38.10
It was like this big burden
had rolled off of my shoulders.
00:40:38.13\00:40:42.24
So I asked the Lord
'cause don't you wonder like,
00:40:42.27\00:40:45.51
"Jesus said, 'Love your
enemies and pray for those
00:40:45.54\00:40:49.61
who persecute you.'"
00:40:49.64\00:40:51.18
And it's like, "Oh,
you got to be kidding me."
00:40:51.21\00:40:55.45
So I asked the Lord to
give me an illustration,
00:40:55.48\00:41:01.26
"Why would You tell us
to forgive our enemies?"
00:41:01.29\00:41:06.46
Here's what He showed me.
00:41:06.49\00:41:09.03
If there is a
little mountain stream
00:41:09.06\00:41:11.07
that's coming
down into a valley,
00:41:11.10\00:41:13.17
and I anchor a
string on one side of it,
00:41:13.20\00:41:17.74
a little wire on one side
and anchor it on the other,
00:41:17.77\00:41:20.48
somebody upstream throws
trash into the stream, it comes,
00:41:20.51\00:41:26.48
it hits the wire, what happens?
00:41:26.51\00:41:28.55
It collects.
00:41:28.58\00:41:29.92
More people
upstream, more trash.
00:41:29.95\00:41:33.25
It begins just like a
beaver would build a dam
00:41:33.29\00:41:36.42
stick by stick,
00:41:36.46\00:41:38.29
it dams us up, and the
stream is no longer running.
00:41:38.33\00:41:42.90
What the Lord
showed me was unforgiveness
00:41:42.93\00:41:45.27
was like that little
tiny wire in our hearts,
00:41:45.30\00:41:48.60
and that as
things that offend us,
00:41:48.64\00:41:51.61
things that
hurt us and wound us,
00:41:51.64\00:41:53.88
all of this begins to collect
00:41:53.91\00:41:56.18
around that wire
of unforgiveness,
00:41:56.21\00:41:57.91
and you find
yourself in bitter, resenting.
00:41:57.95\00:42:02.05
And so when Jesus said,
00:42:02.08\00:42:05.82
"Forgive and love your
enemies and forgive them."
00:42:05.85\00:42:10.93
He was saying
it for your benefit
00:42:10.96\00:42:12.99
because if that gets dammed up
in your heart, the Holy Spirit,
00:42:13.03\00:42:17.27
the living water
can't flow through you,
00:42:17.30\00:42:19.77
but as soon as you let it go,
00:42:19.80\00:42:23.41
God can wash all
that stuff out of you.
00:42:23.44\00:42:26.71
So it's just like when He said.
00:42:26.78\00:42:29.58
"If you forgive someone,
00:42:29.61\00:42:31.95
it's like you're
heaping coals on their head."
00:42:31.98\00:42:35.15
They used to...
00:42:35.18\00:42:36.52
When they were
in that day and age,
00:42:36.55\00:42:39.12
when they were doing repentance,
00:42:39.15\00:42:42.49
they wore these hats,
00:42:42.52\00:42:45.49
these headdresses that
had these metal plates,
00:42:45.53\00:42:48.23
and they would put
burning coals on top of them,
00:42:48.26\00:42:51.27
they still danced.
00:42:51.30\00:42:52.63
In some places, they
still dance like this.
00:42:52.67\00:42:56.24
But the burning coals
meant they were repenting so,
00:42:56.27\00:42:59.74
when you forgive somebody,
00:42:59.77\00:43:01.48
you're heaping
burning coals on their head,
00:43:01.51\00:43:05.38
you're encouraging them
to turn around and repent.
00:43:05.41\00:43:10.99
Brian... A good point.
00:43:11.02\00:43:12.35
I want you to...
00:43:12.39\00:43:13.76
Just don't lose it
00:43:13.79\00:43:15.12
because you've
touched on something,
00:43:15.16\00:43:16.49
this idea of
restoration of relationship,
00:43:16.52\00:43:20.00
part of forgetting is to
restore the relationship.
00:43:20.03\00:43:23.47
So when God says,
"I'll remember them no more."
00:43:23.50\00:43:26.57
He's taking you
back to square one.
00:43:26.60\00:43:28.67
And so He can say,
00:43:28.70\00:43:30.21
"You are a man
after My own heart, "
00:43:30.24\00:43:31.57
because he's
starting all over again,
00:43:31.61\00:43:33.88
even though the mind of heaven
is aware of the infraction,
00:43:33.91\00:43:38.25
it doesn't come
between you and God.
00:43:38.28\00:43:41.65
And I think that's
so very, very important,
00:43:41.68\00:43:43.12
that you're
starting all over afresh
00:43:43.15\00:43:45.22
so you can free
yourself from self-condemnation
00:43:45.25\00:43:47.76
because God isn't
condemning you anymore.
00:43:47.79\00:43:49.59
Going back to
my story, if I say,
00:43:49.62\00:43:54.20
"I'm going to keep
my wallet in my pocket."
00:43:54.23\00:43:56.87
I've changed the relationship.
00:43:56.90\00:43:59.63
You know, I've
not really forgotten
00:43:59.67\00:44:01.00
because I've
altered the relationship.
00:44:01.04\00:44:02.77
So shouldn't it be then
that if I've truly forgiven
00:44:02.80\00:44:06.14
that wallet and money
ought to go back on a dresser?
00:44:06.17\00:44:09.31
I'd say no.
00:44:09.34\00:44:11.91
That's what the young
people got to exercise.
00:44:11.95\00:44:13.65
They said, "No, I'm
not doing that again."
00:44:13.72\00:44:15.62
Obviously, the guy
has a problem with money,
00:44:15.65\00:44:18.45
so I'm not going to
put myself in the position
00:44:18.49\00:44:20.56
to be hurt again but...
00:44:20.59\00:44:21.92
Or I'm not going to
put myself in a position
00:44:21.96\00:44:24.36
of where I tempt him again.
00:44:24.39\00:44:26.26
It can go either way.
00:44:26.29\00:44:28.06
And you can play
with that a little bit.
00:44:28.10\00:44:29.60
But when God gives you
victory, didn't Christ say,
00:44:29.63\00:44:33.64
"The Prince of this world cometh
00:44:33.67\00:44:35.04
and He has nothing in Me."
00:44:35.07\00:44:36.71
So there's nothing He
can put in front of me
00:44:36.74\00:44:39.54
that is going to tempt me.
00:44:39.57\00:44:42.04
Should I risk that
again because the Bible says,
00:44:42.08\00:44:44.75
"Every time we sin, we
crucify Christ afresh."
00:44:44.78\00:44:47.52
So He doesn't pull
out, He doesn't say,
00:44:47.55\00:44:49.55
"No, I'm going to keep
my wallet in my pocket."
00:44:49.58\00:44:51.29
He lays Himself on a line again.
00:44:51.32\00:44:53.89
Puts more money down,
not just a little bit.
00:44:53.96\00:44:56.73
Maybe that's because he's God,
and we're not quite there yet,
00:44:56.76\00:44:59.23
but there's a
little something there.
00:44:59.26\00:45:00.60
But to me, truly forgetting,
00:45:00.63\00:45:03.67
does that not
mean, Shelley, Brian,
00:45:03.70\00:45:05.40
that we restart
the relationship again
00:45:05.43\00:45:08.14
as though the
infraction never happened?
00:45:08.17\00:45:10.81
I would say it
is a case-by-case.
00:45:10.84\00:45:14.98
And let me say why.
00:45:15.01\00:45:16.75
Let's say that a woman is
in an abusive relationship,
00:45:16.78\00:45:21.72
and her husband
comes to her and says,
00:45:21.75\00:45:24.29
"Forgive me, I
won't do that again."
00:45:24.32\00:45:26.96
And she prays about
it, and she forgives him,
00:45:26.99\00:45:29.06
and she puts
herself back on the line.
00:45:29.09\00:45:30.83
And he does it again,
then he comes and says,
00:45:30.86\00:45:33.60
"Forgive me, I
won't do that again."
00:45:33.63\00:45:36.23
I think that there are times
that forgiveness is a choice.
00:45:36.26\00:45:41.50
And it's something that...
00:45:41.54\00:45:42.87
I think it's
also a gift from God.
00:45:42.90\00:45:44.34
I think
sometimes we have to pray
00:45:44.37\00:45:46.91
for that ability,
00:45:46.98\00:45:51.81
you know, that's just like
00:45:51.85\00:45:53.18
how God had me
pray for this person.
00:45:53.21\00:45:55.35
But there comes
a time when we say,
00:45:55.38\00:46:00.46
"Forgive and forget,"
00:46:00.49\00:46:01.96
if I'm forgiving
you for, let's say,
00:46:01.99\00:46:05.86
there's been a heinous sin
00:46:05.89\00:46:07.60
that you've
committed against me.
00:46:07.63\00:46:09.60
And I am forgiving you.
00:46:09.63\00:46:11.27
I'm not going to
rub that into your face
00:46:11.30\00:46:13.44
every time we talk,
00:46:13.47\00:46:14.94
but if the level of
trust between you and I
00:46:14.97\00:46:19.84
has been totally destroyed,
00:46:19.87\00:46:21.38
there are times when I believe
you have to extract yourself
00:46:21.41\00:46:26.05
from the situation, like
the woman with a husband,
00:46:26.08\00:46:29.95
extract yourself and
use wisdom and discernment
00:46:29.98\00:46:34.06
to protect yourself.
00:46:34.09\00:46:36.12
In yours, it's simple enough
that I would say, "Go for it,
00:46:36.16\00:46:40.83
maybe another time."
00:46:40.90\00:46:42.26
If it happened a second time,
00:46:42.30\00:46:43.67
then you know this is a pattern.
00:46:43.70\00:46:45.47
It wasn't just the one time.
00:46:45.50\00:46:47.84
But I do think
personally there are times
00:46:47.87\00:46:50.94
when I've had to forgive people
00:46:50.97\00:46:53.38
and because of the
nature of their sin,
00:46:53.41\00:46:56.95
I also had to protect myself.
00:46:56.98\00:46:58.78
So it was kind
of you remove them
00:46:58.81\00:47:01.62
and love them from a distance.
00:47:01.65\00:47:03.15
You wish them
well, you may be cordial,
00:47:03.18\00:47:06.89
but you may not put yourself
into the position to be...
00:47:06.96\00:47:12.09
Yeah, Brian, what
you're thinking about.
00:47:12.13\00:47:13.50
Yeah. Let me jump in there.
00:47:13.53\00:47:15.20
I think it's the goal of God
00:47:15.23\00:47:17.50
to actually
restore the relationship.
00:47:17.57\00:47:19.57
I think that's the end
goal that God is working
00:47:19.60\00:47:23.81
toward for all of us
because all of these sins
00:47:23.84\00:47:27.41
are a sins of relationship,
and someone hurting
00:47:27.48\00:47:30.65
someone else in
a relational way,
00:47:30.68\00:47:33.25
most all sin is relational.
00:47:33.28\00:47:34.68
Always.
00:47:34.72\00:47:36.99
And I can't really even think
of one that isn't relational.
00:47:37.02\00:47:41.82
I think it's always against
you and you only have I sinned,
00:47:41.86\00:47:44.69
so there's always
that relationship.
00:47:44.73\00:47:46.06
So I think it is
God's goal that in the end,
00:47:46.09\00:47:50.17
whether it happens
here on this earth or not,
00:47:50.20\00:47:53.27
I believe that in the end,
those are going to be restored.
00:47:53.34\00:47:57.44
And when they're restored,
00:47:57.51\00:47:58.84
they're even going to be better
00:47:58.87\00:48:00.31
and stronger than they
were before the infraction came.
00:48:00.38\00:48:05.81
I believe that's where
God's heading us toward.
00:48:05.85\00:48:07.75
You're right where I was
going to go if you did not...
00:48:07.78\00:48:10.42
The restoration
may not be immediate,
00:48:10.49\00:48:12.85
and it may not be now.
00:48:12.89\00:48:14.26
For now, we may have
to insulate ourselves.
00:48:14.29\00:48:16.22
If you have a person
who's a convicted pedophile
00:48:16.26\00:48:18.26
that wants to be
the Pathfinder leader,
00:48:18.29\00:48:22.20
we're not doing that, you know.
00:48:22.23\00:48:23.67
Not for the
kids and not for him.
00:48:23.70\00:48:25.03
No, not for him, not for him.
00:48:25.07\00:48:26.40
It's not good for
his salvation experience
00:48:26.43\00:48:29.60
to put that in front of
him because he is perfecting,
00:48:29.64\00:48:32.57
he, forgive my
prerogative of English,
00:48:32.61\00:48:34.31
ain't perfected yet.
00:48:34.34\00:48:35.71
So he's going to be restored,
but it may not be here,
00:48:35.74\00:48:39.21
and it may not be
now, and putting him back
00:48:39.25\00:48:41.05
into that may
retard that restoration.
00:48:41.08\00:48:44.72
So, well done.
00:48:44.75\00:48:46.09
Now we cut you off
00:48:46.12\00:48:47.46
because you kind of
tapped on a little something.
00:48:47.49\00:48:50.76
I know our time's
getting away from us,
00:48:50.83\00:48:52.16
but do you have anything else?
00:48:52.19\00:48:53.53
I don't want to cut
off what you had, Brian.
00:48:53.56\00:48:54.90
We've been talking about
someone committing something
00:48:58.23\00:49:01.40
against another person
or someone, I should say,
00:49:01.44\00:49:05.01
someone committed
a wrong against us
00:49:05.04\00:49:07.28
and our forgiving them.
00:49:07.31\00:49:10.95
People wrestle over
whether they are forgiven.
00:49:10.98\00:49:15.08
And you'd mention
and keep bringing it up,
00:49:15.12\00:49:20.09
that's a
struggle that many people
00:49:20.16\00:49:22.82
who have done
something terribly wrong,
00:49:22.86\00:49:24.86
and I am with those
kind of guys every week.
00:49:24.89\00:49:28.83
They have done
something terribly, terribly
00:49:28.86\00:49:31.80
hurtful to someone else,
00:49:31.83\00:49:33.84
and couldn't ever
forgive themselves, you see.
00:49:33.87\00:49:37.04
And I believe that
00:49:37.11\00:49:42.31
we need to be as
forgiving of ourselves
00:49:42.34\00:49:47.05
as God is of us and
learn to understand that.
00:49:47.12\00:49:51.25
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:51.29\00:49:52.62
You don't want to atrophy
the grace of mercy of God.
00:49:52.65\00:49:54.69
He can fully
forgive and restore.
00:49:54.72\00:49:58.56
So we need to get
ourselves over some times.
00:49:58.59\00:50:00.10
To put that behind,
00:50:00.13\00:50:01.46
put that behind
and move forward.
00:50:01.50\00:50:02.83
Well said.
00:50:02.86\00:50:04.20
You know, it's
easy sometimes to say,
00:50:04.23\00:50:05.57
"Yes, I see
that God forgives me,
00:50:05.60\00:50:06.94
but I can't forgive myself."
00:50:06.97\00:50:08.30
Well, that means
you're putting your opinion
00:50:08.34\00:50:10.81
above God's opinion.
00:50:10.84\00:50:13.07
So that's why we have to
accept God's forgiveness.
00:50:13.11\00:50:17.05
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:17.08\00:50:18.41
I did a little
study some time ago.
00:50:18.45\00:50:19.78
It's been a little
while, I don't remember
00:50:19.81\00:50:21.15
if it's one-third or two-thirds
00:50:21.18\00:50:22.72
or 40% of the Bible
was written by murderers.
00:50:22.75\00:50:26.65
All the New Testament,
when you add up to 66,
00:50:26.69\00:50:29.69
somewhere in the, is
it the high 20s or 30s,
00:50:29.72\00:50:33.83
written by people who
had taken someone's life
00:50:33.90\00:50:36.00
or given an order
that ended in the death
00:50:36.03\00:50:37.93
of somebody else.
00:50:37.97\00:50:39.30
Yeah, one of the most prolific
writers in the New Testament...
00:50:39.33\00:50:42.24
Precisely. Very
much so, very much so.
00:50:42.27\00:50:45.31
And you got the first five books
00:50:45.34\00:50:46.71
written by a
murderer, you know, a murderer.
00:50:46.78\00:50:48.88
So can God restore? Yes, He can.
00:50:48.91\00:50:51.61
He can restore fully,
00:50:51.65\00:50:52.98
and He can use you
in a marvelous way,
00:50:53.01\00:50:56.18
you know, so the
response seems to be,
00:50:56.22\00:50:59.29
the linchpin seems to
be what is our response
00:50:59.32\00:51:02.42
to the chastening of the Lord
00:51:02.46\00:51:04.63
once you are
called out on your sin,
00:51:04.66\00:51:06.83
whatever that is,
He is ready to forgive.
00:51:06.90\00:51:10.57
Psalms 86 says, "He's ready.
00:51:10.60\00:51:12.37
He wants to forgive."
00:51:12.40\00:51:14.24
What's our
response to ourselves?
00:51:14.27\00:51:16.57
Quick thought before
we go to our news break,
00:51:16.60\00:51:18.44
and then we've got a sort
of wrap a little bow on this.
00:51:18.47\00:51:20.78
The sin that seems
to have no sacrifice
00:51:26.38\00:51:30.32
in the Old Testament
00:51:30.39\00:51:32.65
because of the case
studies that we've talked about,
00:51:32.69\00:51:36.12
there is a sacrifice
that counts for all sin.
00:51:36.16\00:51:41.03
And I think that's what I'd like
00:51:41.06\00:51:42.40
the people to understand.
00:51:42.43\00:51:43.87
The death of
Jesus is a sacrifice
00:51:43.90\00:51:47.64
that covers all sin.
00:51:47.67\00:51:49.27
Amen.
00:51:49.30\00:51:50.64
Nothing is excluded from that,
00:51:50.71\00:51:52.94
except continually resisting it,
00:51:52.97\00:51:56.98
but there's...
00:51:57.05\00:51:58.38
I don't care what kind of sin
00:51:58.41\00:51:59.75
you might have
committed in your life,
00:51:59.78\00:52:02.12
there is a sacrifice
00:52:02.15\00:52:04.02
and Jesus paid
it, and it covers all.
00:52:04.09\00:52:07.72
Amen and amen.
00:52:07.76\00:52:09.09
We're going to
go to our news break
00:52:09.12\00:52:10.86
and then come back
00:52:10.93\00:52:12.26
and have Brother
Brian and Sister Shelley
00:52:12.29\00:52:14.13
just put a little bow
on this before we wrap up.
00:52:14.20\00:52:16.50
We'll be back in
just a couple of moments.
00:52:16.53\00:52:19.00