Participants: C. A. Murray (Host), Lincoln Steed
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY015076A
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00:01 I want to spend my life
00:07 Mending broken people 00:12 I want to spend my life 00:18 Removing pain 00:23 Lord, let my words Let my words 00:29 Heal a heart that hurts 00:34 I want to spend my life 00:40 Mending broken people 00:45 I want to spend my life 00:51 Mending broken people 01:07 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today. 01:09 My name is C.A. Murray. 01:10 And allow me once again to thank you for sharing 01:12 just a little of your busy day with us, 01:14 for your love, your prayers, your support of this ministry. 01:17 For we realize that we cannot do 01:19 what we are called to do without your help 01:20 and your partnership. 01:22 So from the bottom of our hearts 01:23 we do say thank you. 01:24 This is a very special 3ABN Today program. 01:27 First of all, we have a person here 01:29 who doesn't normally appear on this set, 01:31 though he is no doubt a familiar face to you 01:33 here at 3ABN 01:35 because he is the host of Liberty Insider. 01:38 He's also the editor of Liberty Magazine. 01:41 And he is none other than Lincoln Steed. 01:42 Lincoln, good to have you here. 01:44 Well, it's great to be on the program. 01:45 We-- first of all, I appreciate Lincoln 01:47 because he always brings good news when he comes. 01:49 He always has some thing of important to say 01:52 and perhaps what he's going to say this day 01:54 maybe is of as important as anything 01:57 he has ever said on this set. 01:59 And this person you would like talk to, 02:00 because he kind of keeps his ear 02:02 to ground he knows what's going on 02:03 in the church and in the world. 02:05 And as you all know, the Pope visited this country 02:10 just several days ago and Lincoln was in that group, 02:16 that massive number that without a number 02:20 or one would almost say. 02:22 And so we've come to sort of pick his brain 02:24 a little bit on his thoughts as respects the visit, 02:29 its impact on the church, impact this country 02:33 and just to give us an over view 02:35 and perhaps touch on some things 02:36 that you may not know or may have known 02:40 and have forgotten about. 02:41 But just to give us his feel 02:43 as editor of Liberty Magazine, 02:44 as someone who is involved in church state relations 02:47 and different kinds of things. 02:49 We wanted to sort of have him come 02:50 and just give us the digest of his quite acute mind 02:55 as to what's going on. 02:56 And Lincoln, I want to ask you, 02:58 I want to start in sort of an off beat kind of place 03:02 because you were there, you saw the security. 03:08 And as we heard the security 03:11 for this pontiff was as massive, 03:14 as great, as thorough as any head of state anywhere, 03:19 any time in the history of dealing 03:21 with these kinds of things. 03:22 Give us some sense of the flavor you got 03:24 as you looked at the security preparation. 03:26 I've never seen anything like it, you know. 03:28 I've lived in Washington 03:29 since I was quite a young fellow. 03:30 I've been through the riots that followed 03:33 Martin Luther King's assassination. 03:35 And I can remember Washington burning in the security 03:38 with the national guard and the police. 03:40 This was on a higher level in my view. 03:42 There were uniformed 03:44 and actually battle equipped ATF agents. 03:49 There were border agents, border patrol. 03:52 There were immigration officials, 03:55 there were military police, 03:57 there were homeland security, there were regular military, 04:03 of course, the local police. 04:05 There was-- and plain cloths policemen. 04:08 It was massive. 04:10 In fact, they were almost more security people 04:13 than those there to watch the video thrown 04:17 at back of the capital. 04:18 There were 55, 000 people according to one guard 04:21 when I asked him. 04:22 But they were all clustered in a huge crowd at the back. 04:25 But beyond that there was chain- link fencing 04:28 with the labyrinthine approaches 04:31 where you are corralled, 04:32 sort of like cattle being funneled into the area 04:35 and beyond that nobody. 04:36 No cars, hardly anybody walking 04:39 and they were invariable turned back. 04:41 It was crowd control on a massive scale. 04:43 So people were where they wanted them to be 04:46 and no place else. 04:47 And even the area behind the capital, 04:51 we were not all in one area. 04:52 We were divided up into at least three sections 04:55 by the chain-linked fencing. 04:57 So they just want the crowd coalescing into one group. 05:00 And I don't know what they are afraid of, 05:01 other than some attempt, you know, violent incident. 05:06 That's always possible in this modern world. 05:08 But that would have by definition be a small event. 05:11 But why there was 05:12 this sort of a militarization of downtown. 05:14 I don't really know. 05:16 Maybe they simply wanted-- 05:19 And there are a number of reasons. 05:20 One could be, they were trying to tamp down the unexpected 05:26 because as was said, this particular Pope 05:30 tended to go off script in his actions 05:33 any time he chose to do so. 05:35 Well, that's true. Yeah. 05:37 But what I read into was it's a dry run 05:39 for further events like this. 05:41 Yes, yeah. 05:43 And that's not being prophetic or dismal. 05:46 I think we're entering into a new era 05:48 where the unexpected can happen. 05:50 Things were little out of control 05:51 as the problem with Second Coming 05:54 that I like to say, things fall apart. 05:57 The center cannot hold. And they are falling apart. 05:59 Yes. 06:00 And that's part of the appeal, 06:02 I think for the secular minded politicians of this Pope. 06:05 Because he helps to give a sense of order 06:08 of what's going on. 06:10 The term was used over and over again, 06:13 "Rock star" as far as popularity is concerned. 06:17 Did you get that sense as you sort of interface 06:20 in the crowd there and talked with people 06:21 or people talked with you, did you get that kind of feel? 06:24 Well, there's no question there's an element of that. 06:26 Whether how much of-- that was because of the crowd. 06:30 I don't know the breakdown 06:32 but there was obviously a very high biased 06:34 toward Roman Catholics in the crowd. 06:38 It's natural. They have more of an interest. 06:41 Then the occasion sort of created a sense of moment. 06:45 How much of it is, 06:47 because of this individual Pope, 06:49 I don't know. 06:50 I think one thing builds on another 06:52 and we've created a sort of a persona 06:54 or the media has created a persona for this present Pope 06:58 and all that he represents and people respond to the hope 07:02 that's thrown at them. 07:03 Yeah. 07:05 His style was not flamboyant. 07:06 What he said was actually a little more muted 07:09 than some of his recent pronouncements in his writings, 07:12 although they were allusions there. 07:14 And we'll talk a little further about 07:15 what went on there. 07:17 But I think we're being conditioned as a society 07:21 and even as a world society 07:22 to sort of see this is a grand moment. 07:26 But if you look at dispassionately, 07:28 it's an old guy in a white dress. 07:33 Sorry. 07:36 I guess that is a way to look at it. 07:38 And of course, a lot of this 07:40 and how much of this is his personal charisma, 07:43 how much of this is response to media hype 07:45 because every sneeze, 07:47 every move was talked about again, and again and again. 07:50 Now I need to throw something 07:52 in because I might say things before this program is over. 07:55 But my father who's been dead eight years ago now, 07:57 but he had many dealings with world leaders 07:59 and on the international stage. 08:01 And he believed like me 08:03 and you as a Seventh-day Adventist 08:05 that we are living through prophetic events. 08:07 Many times I tell him some things 08:09 that were happening 08:10 and his invariable response was, "Isn't it exciting?" 08:15 He says, "The Lord is about to come." 08:18 So one level we can work ourselves into a lather, 08:21 the historical diminution of Protestant America 08:26 or the apparent leaness of some of the final events 08:29 of Revelation, Sunday law and so on. 08:32 But the overall context is exciting 08:34 because we are surging toward the grand moment 08:36 when Christ will come. 08:38 Yes. 08:39 But I, particularly, 08:40 when I talk to Seventh-day Adventist 08:42 I sense a sort of a paranoia that can easily come into this. 08:46 I remember at one church I was talking to a group about 08:49 these types of events and a fellow on the front seat 08:52 called out to me, he says, "Tell us," he says, 08:54 "when should we be afraid?" 08:58 Well, you know, "Perfect love casts out fear." 09:00 "Casts our fear." Yeah. We should be afraid. 09:01 But we need to be sorbent about these things. 09:04 This is not time for secular happiness in the sense that, 09:07 you know, vine, woman and song and happiness 09:09 and just empty celebration. 09:13 These are serious times. They are, they are. 09:15 And it's very obvious to me 09:17 that the bishop of Rome is playing for keeps. 09:19 Oh, yeah. 09:21 This is not just a PR endeavor to come to America. 09:24 This is the seat of Protestant, modern Protestantism. 09:28 And for the bishop of Rome to come here 09:31 as the conquering hero, is a grand historical moment 09:35 that people should understand for what it is. 09:37 It's something unprecedented 09:41 and it fits in to the stated plans 09:45 of the papacy over at least a hundred years. 09:48 And it fits into prophecy. 09:50 Yeah, yeah, and you know-- 09:51 And I said that on this air that when you look at Europe, 09:56 you got a lot of beautiful churches that are empty. 09:58 So when you talk about Protestantism as a movement, 10:02 you're talking about the United States. 10:03 And there is no way to get around that. 10:04 Well, North America. 10:07 So if you want to, and I use the term 10:09 in very general term, is conquer Protestantism. 10:11 If you want to have impact, 10:12 you got to have the impact here. 10:14 There is no way to get away from that. 10:16 Besides-- and I want you to give us 10:20 a little more of a historical perspective. 10:25 Because I've been in conversations 10:26 where people have said, one of the things 10:28 that the Pope was able to do, and I use the term, 10:33 sanitize the image of the Catholic Church. 10:36 There was up until just a few years ago 10:38 when you thought about the Catholic Church, 10:41 you thought about the priestly misbehavior 10:45 and that was front and center. 10:48 That's what you thought about. 10:51 And in the two years the time and change 10:54 that he's been in, the thought is different. 10:57 He's been able-- so give us in broad strokes 11:00 some of the context of the history of the church 11:03 and from where you sitting what you said. 11:04 Well, you touch on one thing 11:06 that I have no personal answer to. 11:07 I don't understand how a system and to repeat 11:13 which has such a systemic problem 11:16 with this sexual abuse. 11:21 You know, it's not just that it happens 11:22 to some of the priests or been indulged in. 11:24 This is the byproduct of the very structure 11:26 and the aberrant behavior that's required of a priest. 11:30 Yes. 11:31 You know, I could even say it's unnatural. 11:33 I don't understand how with that scandal going on 11:37 and it's going away. 11:41 The whole edifice of Rome represented 11:43 by the Pope himself 11:44 is never been higher in public estimation. 11:47 I don't understand that. 11:49 Part of the way that they rehabilitated themselves 11:52 was in a document, less than a decade ago 11:56 called Memory and Reconciliation. 11:59 And in that document-- 12:00 Which was reported widely in the media. 12:02 This was under, 12:04 well, it's a bit more than a decade ago 12:05 with Pope John Paul II 12:07 in the winding days of his papacy. 12:08 They came out with a document written by his successor 12:11 who was then head of the inquisition, 12:14 Cardinal Ratzinger. 12:16 And they apologized 12:18 for the inquisition, they apologized 12:20 for the persecution of the Jews, 12:22 they apologized for the sack of Constantinople, 12:24 which was the fourth Crusade 12:27 that was manipulated by several forces including Venice 12:31 and the bishop of Rome to neutralize their opposition 12:35 in the Christian world. 12:37 Yes. 12:38 That was the cause of the great split 12:39 between Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church. 12:41 Roman Catholic Church, yeah. 12:43 All of this is apologized for in a sort of a-- 12:45 I've got children 12:47 and they often have to apologize. 12:48 They tend not to apologize full frontal. 12:52 It's like, "If I did this or... 12:54 If I offended you, I'm sorry. 12:55 And I must admit, the document is a little in that manner. 12:59 It holds back the magisterium or the innate authority 13:03 and goodness of the church saying it, 13:04 of course, can't do any wrong. 13:06 But people who happen to be Catholics did these things 13:09 that we apologize for. 13:11 But it was a very important document 13:14 that was well reported on and I think Rome intended 13:18 and it seems to have worked 13:20 that they've cut themselves loose from their history, 13:23 which, of course, includes the issue with Protestantism. 13:26 The coerced Protestantism. Yes. 13:28 So they are very unembarrassed now about the past. 13:31 And many Protestants in the United States 13:35 seem also to have cut loose from their past 13:37 and forgotten why they are Protestants. 13:39 So it's a very dangerous past in my view, 13:42 to forget your history, you know, within our church, 13:46 Ellen White writing to early Adventists 13:48 as well as other secular figures outside 13:51 in national affairs have often reminded people 13:54 that you forget history at your peril. 13:57 Yes, yes. 13:58 And that's what really troubled me 14:00 of the recent events with this latest visit of a Pope of Rome, 14:03 of course, there's been two before him 14:06 that I can remember in my lifetime. 14:08 But we're forgetting our history. 14:10 And yet, in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, 14:14 and the Curia, or the administered as it-- 14:19 and the magisterium that they depend on. 14:23 It has not changed at all. 14:24 Its goals are unchanged and incompatible 14:28 with the principles of Protestantism. 14:30 And indeed and this is that level 14:32 that I tried to confine it 14:33 to Liberty Magazine which deals 14:35 with religious liberty for all people. 14:38 On the level of religious liberty, 14:40 of course, doesn't matter what people believe 14:42 when you're fighting for religious liberty. 14:44 I might feel that I am true, a Muslim feels 14:46 that he has a correct belief, 14:48 a Catholic, various Protestants, 14:50 Buddhists and so on. 14:51 It's immaterial the truth of your belief 14:53 but for religious liberty, is a principle 14:56 all should be allowed to believe 14:58 whatever moves their heart. 15:01 They should be allowed to practice it, 15:02 to change it and so on. 15:04 And in the United States that further mandates 15:07 a separation of church and state, 15:09 which is a safety mechanism to allow religion to flourish. 15:13 And this is the mortal threat in my view, 15:17 to invite the bishop of Rome and to address the politicians 15:21 as ahead of state 15:23 because you have a religious leader speaking 15:26 as a politician to politicians, 15:29 in a country that is premised 15:30 on the separation of church and state. 15:32 On that level, I think we should yell it 15:35 from the housetops on the level of discussing 15:39 the errors of Rome, 15:40 this program is very appropriate 15:41 because we are talking to a religious audience. 15:43 But I hope people understand 15:46 that religious liberty construct, 15:48 the civil construct, on that level, 15:51 it's the structure of the organization, 15:53 on the level of Biblical truth and fulfill prophecy. 15:58 Of course, there's a lot more going on. 16:01 Flash that out for me just a little bit, Lincoln, 16:02 because a person who perhaps doesn't look much below 16:08 the surface may say, "So what's the problem?" 16:11 He's talking about moral stuff, he is a moral guy 16:15 and we're talking about family, 16:17 we're talking about taking care of the earth. 16:21 What's wrong with a church leader 16:25 bringing that stuff up before Congress? 16:29 Well, back to my basic point. 16:32 The US constitution was a well thought out document. 16:36 It's not giving on man's signing hour 16:38 but it was well thought through. 16:40 And it followed in the tradition 16:43 of liberal democratic views 16:45 that had engulfed most of Europe 16:47 and fled through England. 16:50 Got rid of the-- 16:53 Well, I was hesitating to tell the whole story which I won't. 16:56 But, you know, England had a religious civil war. 16:58 Yes. 16:59 And they removed the king who as the Pope 17:03 and the kings that many Popes put in place. 17:06 He held the view that he had a divine right to rule. 17:10 So he won't just challenging 17:13 the autocorrect rule of the king. 17:15 You were challenging God. 17:16 But Protestant views in England 17:19 and the enlightenment views that they gave us, 17:22 sense of the rights of the individual swept away 17:25 that old system and that moved across 17:27 into the United States 17:29 and we have a well thought out democratic principle 17:33 that removed religion from the political arena. 17:38 But the danger now is we're inviting it back. 17:42 And like I said, we're blindsided 17:44 when we have- 17:46 'cause there's only really one vacuum, 17:48 when you have the Pope of Rome 17:50 who as they introduced him as the Pope of the Holy Sea. 17:54 And I thought that was a very interesting term 17:57 that was used because the Holy Sea 17:58 is not the little 110, 120 acre of Vatican City 18:03 which is the smallest city state in the world, 18:06 which gives him governmental authority. 18:09 The Holy Sea is a little bit different. 18:12 That is the ecclesiastical governance 18:16 that the Pope claims as the Pope of Rome. 18:19 So this is a spiritual property 18:23 and it could even be enlarged to say 18:25 because every bishop has a sea that's under the Pope. 18:29 In essence as when they introduced him 18:30 as the Pope of the Holy Sea, 18:33 this was a spiritual claim to almost the entire world 18:36 if not the Christian world. 18:37 Precisely. Yeah. 18:39 And that's so antithetical to the democratic Protestant 18:44 egalitarian view of government that it's mind boggling. 18:48 But the current trend in Protestantism sees to be, 18:51 to embrace that. 18:53 From where you said. 18:55 Well, we should be pleasant to the Pope 18:58 or to the Mullah or the Imam. 19:01 We're all human beings an this a great truth 19:04 that the Pope has talked about 19:05 that you know, our common home, 19:07 common survival here on this planet 19:09 is depended on all obeying 19:12 the reasonable rules of behavior 19:15 and seeking to create communication 19:19 and even survival of the species 19:21 through care for the environment. 19:26 But that's not the same as embracing as truth 19:29 something that I'm convinced might be error. 19:31 Yes. 19:32 Or negating a structural element of a church state 19:39 that in the past has proven 19:41 to be quite dangerous to individual freedom. 19:43 We have to have our guard up. 19:44 Yeah, yeah. 19:46 This then is-- the question 19:48 that I'm going to ask you 19:50 because from your vantage point, 19:54 how conversant do you think the average Protestant 19:57 is with his own history, vis-a-vis the Catholic Church. 20:03 Pretty good, pretty bad, fair, how... 20:05 That's where I'm most depressed on this whole thing. 20:08 Yes. 20:09 You know, this visit came and went 20:12 and the world hasn't changed, although the world has changed 20:15 in the last few decades radically in regard to this. 20:18 But I think it's now just a matter of time, 20:21 not of necessary change to facilitate 20:24 what Seventh-day Adventist has said will eventually result 20:27 in legal requirements in the United States 20:32 to act a certain way on religious edicts, 20:36 perhaps even a Sunday law. 20:40 Not this presidential election cycle 20:42 but the one before a Roman Catholic Senator, 20:46 Senator Santorum, he's a wonderful human being. 20:48 We've had some dealings with him 20:51 through our church's legislative liaison group 20:55 with that we were hoping to get a work place 20:57 Religious Freedom Restoration Act 20:59 and he was very cooperative. 21:00 But he was running for president. 21:02 He's a dedicated Roman Catholic 21:04 and he made a statement that created quite a furor 21:08 but I think it was a correct statement. 21:10 He said, remember, speaking as a Roman Catholic politician, 21:14 he said "Protestantism is absent in America today." 21:19 That I believe is how the Roman Catholic Church 21:21 sees the United States today. 21:24 Its Protestant character has largely gone. 21:28 So then you are basically right for the picking. 21:30 Right, that's what I think. Yeah. 21:32 There's no inhibition to whatever might come our way. 21:37 When I say no, I mean, I'm generalizing. 21:39 Yes, yes, understood. You can go on the internet.` 21:40 There's all sorts of objections and some of it very-- 21:45 some of them very crazy because, you know, 21:46 they go out to the far spectrum. 21:48 There-- some awareness there 21:49 but in the whole, 21:51 I think the Protestant awareness is dissipated. 21:54 Okay, okay. 21:55 And that could be for any number of things. 21:58 The question is if it's fumbling itself 22:00 in my mind is, if I say the following names, you-- 22:05 they strike a chord in your mind, 22:07 Albigenses, Waldenses, Cathari, 22:13 trying to think some other groups, 22:15 you have a context for those names. 22:19 Well-- let me give you a plain fact 22:22 of American public lives 22:23 that I think based on whether this isknown. 22:26 Once-- it's possible 22:28 during the presidential election. 22:30 People have a fairly good recognition 22:32 of who is running or perhaps who is president. 22:34 But in the in between times, 22:36 it's been shown that the over whelming majority 22:38 of Americans cannot name the sitting president. 22:42 So do you think that they know who the Albigenses are? 22:47 The Waldenses? Yeah. 22:49 But the lack of knowledge or understanding 22:52 impacts upon your desire or your ability, 22:55 your capacity to embrace a doctrinal system 23:00 which is really antithetical to your own. 23:02 You are a Protestant. 23:04 There's a lot of people who couldn't define that term 23:07 and don't know when it began, where it began, how it began, 23:11 and the pushback against that term 23:13 from the Roman Catholic Church. 23:15 That's why I brought those names to you 23:16 because if those groups were not exterminated, 23:19 they were close to exterminated. 23:21 So there was a history that the average American 23:24 is not aware of 23:25 and it impacts upon his willingness 23:28 to sort of hold hands and sing Kumbaya 23:29 because he doesn't know the... 23:31 And what's important about those groups and-- 23:33 They were in Europe 23:36 around 250 years plus ago. 23:42 But they were not persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church. 23:45 They were persecuted at a time 23:46 when the Roman Catholic Church was the confidant 23:50 and indeed the legitimizing power 23:53 for all of the secular powers. 23:54 Yes, yes. 23:55 And they told the different powers 23:58 like the Dukes of Savoy and so on. 24:00 "These are unacceptable religious minorities, 24:03 deal with them." 24:04 Yes, yes. 24:06 And all the... 24:07 So the church used the powers that were there... 24:09 I can tell you, the Protestant sensibility 24:11 during the-- in England 24:13 when Oliver Cromwell, 24:15 who's been spoken badly of many historians 24:19 but in reality, 24:20 who is a champion of Protestantism. 24:22 While he was Lord Protector of England, 24:24 after the civil war, 24:25 he heard about the case of the Waldenses 24:28 and he said that unless they stop persecuting them, 24:31 he would lead an English Protestant army 24:33 to relieve them. 24:34 So that was the sensibility of Protestantism in England 24:38 and that was carried across, 24:40 of course, to United States in its infancy. 24:45 We've kept a separation of church and state 24:47 but the Protestant sensibility was very strong. 24:49 Let me tell you something in the speech. 24:51 We haven't spoken about the Pope's speech 24:53 before Congress. 24:55 Overall, it was not an objectionable speech, 24:58 although we need to deconstruct it a little what was in there. 25:02 I came originally from Australia 25:04 but I've lived most of my life in the United States. 25:06 So I hope I think like an American. 25:08 And as I sat there at the back listening, 25:11 I was just dumbstruck 25:13 with what the Pope did in his speech. 25:15 He based it, you know, it was all themed 25:17 on linking into his encyclical on the environment. 25:21 He was using a lot of those same ideas, 25:24 not so direct as in the document 25:26 but he was alluding to that. 25:28 He was alluding to what we might discuss 25:30 a little more things like the common good, 25:32 reciprocity and so on, subsidiarity. 25:36 But he structured his speech around four individuals. 25:40 They were two Roman Catholics, a man and a woman. 25:42 I know why he did that. 25:44 That was to integrate Roman Catholic faith 25:47 and practice and heroes and heroines 25:51 into American, Americana. 25:54 But his other-- the other two characters, 25:57 one made perfect sense 25:58 'cause he resonated with the themes 26:00 he was talking about was Martin Luther King. 26:03 The first one was Abraham Lincoln. 26:04 Yes. 26:06 Did it strike you as a little odd? 26:08 Yeah, it just seems sort of an unnatural placement 26:12 of that particular figure in what he was trying to do. 26:14 And now, I read a lot. 26:16 I don't claim to have read everything 26:17 that's been printed since then. 26:19 But reading and listening, 26:21 I have yet had to see a comment by anybody 26:24 as to what was going on there. 26:26 Yeah. 26:27 I think this was like waving a red rag 26:29 in front of someone to see if there even color- sensitive. 26:35 Because Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, 26:37 most people remember by John Wilkes Booth. 26:41 They might have forgotten. 26:42 There was a conspiracy. Four other people were hanged. 26:46 Yes. 26:48 And four or five were arrested 26:50 and received long prison sentences. 26:51 It was a conspiracy in the home of Mary Surratt. 26:54 Yes, yes, yes. 26:55 Her brother, which is interesting 26:59 part of the story fled the authorities 27:02 and went to Canada, 27:05 who sheltered by Roman Catholic priest. 27:07 Then he went to Rome 27:09 and ended up in the Pope's bodyguard. 27:11 All but one of the conspiritants 27:13 were Roman Catholics. 27:15 They were several priests that were in that home. 27:18 And the time more significant-- 27:20 what really happened at the time, 27:22 America believed that it was a Jesuit plot 27:25 to kill Abraham Lincoln. 27:26 Yeah, I recall that. 27:27 Yeah, there's a great book 27:29 came out just a couple of years ago. 27:30 Real thick one that I began to read... 27:32 And at the moment, Robert Redford 27:33 is doing a film on this. 27:34 So it's gonna come up again. 27:36 The very least of it, keep quiet about that. 27:41 You know that was a period 27:42 when not only was the United States 27:44 deeply Protestant, it was deeply prejudiced 27:47 against Catholics, often violently. 27:49 And that's not a good part of American history. 27:51 True. 27:53 But it was the extreme manifestation 27:55 of this solid Protestant identity 27:59 that was the time when the Pope of Rome 28:01 was railing against 28:03 this Protestant experiment here. 28:06 Its success in the civil war was problematic 28:10 for the geopolitical aims of the papacy in Europe. 28:15 And they had made murmuring comments 28:18 against Abraham Lincoln. 28:19 So it was not unnatural for America to think 28:21 that this is not just a few people 28:24 that happen to be Roman Catholic, 28:26 that there was something seditious going on 28:28 instigated by papacy as they used to say. 28:31 Yes. 28:32 That's just the fact of history. 28:34 Which has been lost over in these many years. 28:37 Few people know that. 28:38 So few people would have connected the dots on that. 28:39 And the Pope got every right to speak of it. 28:41 You know, it's a free world. 28:43 And I'm sure I doubt they got the script 28:45 from him in Venice but this is just amazing to me 28:47 that there would be the boldness to put it there 28:50 and the de-sensitivity, or the lack of memory 28:52 that anyone didn't notice that. 28:54 Yeah. Just flat didn't know. 28:55 So I can't think of a better illustration 28:57 of how far we've come. 29:00 We're-- you know that doesn't compute anymore. 29:02 Yes, yes. 29:04 So when we talk about the protest 29:07 and people stand up and say the protest is over, 29:09 that kind of mind set is embraced 29:12 because you simply have nothing else-- 29:13 Well, the illusion you are making, 29:15 I don't know if it's been discussed 29:16 on any of your programs but a couple of years ago 29:20 an Episcopal priest named Tony Palmer 29:22 stood up before an evangelical group 29:26 of Kenneth Copeland's leadership conference. 29:29 And he said, "The reformation's over, 29:32 you're all Roman Catholics now." 29:34 Well, you know it's not quite true 29:35 but that's the inference 29:37 and the basis for that was a 1999 agreement 29:41 between the World Lutheran Federation 29:44 and the Roman Catholics, 29:46 where they decided Luther's differences 29:49 on righteousness by faith were a misunderstanding. 29:52 And the Catholic Church has not changed because-- 29:54 I read that agreement. 29:56 They said in entering into this agreement, 29:58 they by no means were repudiating 30:00 the Council of Trent which condemned the Lutheran 30:02 and the Protestant Reformation. 30:05 They said, but, in discussion, we realize that Lutherans today 30:09 hold something much more amenable to Catholic doctrine. 30:14 So we can decide that it's over. 30:17 And then the Methodist in 2008 made a similar agreement-- 30:22 or accepted that agreement. 30:24 So Protestantism is being rolled back, 30:26 not just in popular sensibility but in structural alignment. 30:30 Yeah. It's been decided it's over. 30:32 So when Tony Palmer can say that you're all Catholics now. 30:36 The reformation's over. 30:38 Even allowing for hyperbole, he had some basis in that. 30:41 Yes, yes. 30:42 Now what's interesting, Lincoln, is that 30:44 if you look at the beast that has changed its stripes, 30:48 it's more Protestantism than the Catholic Church. 30:50 This Pope had said... 30:51 And you and I know Ellen White 30:53 speaking to Seventh-day Adventist, 30:54 this would happen. 30:56 She says, "Rome will cover with apologies, 30:57 all their errors but she is unchanged." 30:59 And I don't think that's a malicious statement. 31:04 I read these papal documents. 31:06 They claim themselves that they are not changing 31:08 in the magisterium and the long term purposes 31:12 and they make a point in all these documents 31:14 which ever Pope it is, 31:16 he alludes to previous papal statements. 31:17 They are trying to show 31:19 the continuum of authority and thought. 31:21 And what I felt was interesting 31:22 and I did not hear this statement myself 31:24 but I heard one of the reporters 31:25 who was on the plane saying 31:27 we'd some of the bad food this kind of thing. 31:29 He said when we went back and sat and talked with him, 31:32 he made it clear the Pope did, "I'm not a reformer. 31:36 You guys are painting me as this, left this guy who is hear 31:40 to tear down all that went before. 31:43 That's not me. That's not my job. 31:45 And you shouldn't paint me as such. 31:46 I'm not hear to change anything. 31:49 I'm here to reaffirm. 31:51 Now my style is different but I'm not here to rip down 31:55 2000 years of history. 31:56 I'm here to follow in the trajectory-- 31:57 What he is doing in the Friday before the Pope's speech 32:02 before Congress, I'd attended an all day seminar 32:04 at Catholic University 32:07 and they were some interesting speeches there. 32:09 And one from Archbishop Lori of the Archbishop of Baltimore, 32:14 he told they are a little bit 32:15 about the Pope say if it's a "reform." 32:16 They used the term but what they really mean 32:18 is structural realignment within the church. 32:20 Yes. 32:22 They are changing a lot of things 32:23 to be more focused on their agenda. 32:26 And he actually told us a story 32:28 that that I found a little troubling. 32:31 The person that the Pope had set in place 32:35 as appoint man for reform, 32:39 come under great attack as they expected. 32:42 And then at the key point, 32:44 a charge was brought against this man, 32:47 this priest that he was traveling with the male lover. 32:52 And the Archbishop Lori said that such is his commitment 32:56 to reform that he refused to call for his resignation. 33:02 And it was in response to a question 33:04 about this situation on the plane 33:05 where the Pope said, "Who am I to judge?" 33:08 And then made some more general statements 33:10 about homosexuality. 33:12 Well, that's admirable 33:13 that he's going to pursue his agenda. 33:15 But it's a little problematic, morally ambiguous. 33:19 They wouldn't root out something 33:21 on its own moral case. 33:24 But it's more important to pursue this realignment 33:27 because the realignment, I think is everything to do 33:30 with his advancing, the case of Rome against old comers, 33:35 particularly, Protestants. 33:37 So it's a restructuring to fortify ourselves 33:41 for what we see as coming as opposed 33:43 to a sociological change or even a theological change 33:47 and where we're going and what we're trying to do. 33:50 On the speech, they were couple of other things 33:53 that I alluded to earlier that I need to at least 33:55 before people or viewers are forgotten. 33:58 Over and over again, the Pope used to term 34:00 that now is broadly used but I know 34:02 it really started in a religious context, 34:05 the common good. 34:07 And that chills my heart more than anything. 34:10 That one kind of just makes you squirm 34:12 in your seat a little bit. 34:13 You know, in the Bible the Pharisees 34:17 or the Sanhedrin said that it is better 34:19 that one man die than the nation should perish. 34:22 Precisely. 34:23 That's what the common good translation do. 34:26 It sounds all Kumbaya and you know, campfireish. 34:31 Yeah. 34:32 You know, we're gonna defend 34:34 against the wolves out there for the common good 34:36 we'll all do something together. 34:38 But you know, it has echoes in my view of communism 34:41 to start with in anti-communist America. 34:46 I'm surprised that that doesn't bother more people. 34:49 As the Pope expressed 34:51 that the common good for our survival means, 34:52 as he said later, that we be weary, 34:55 he didn't say what we do with them. 34:57 But we avoid and be weary of extremists 35:01 and fundamentalists. 35:03 Well, how do define an extremist? 35:07 An extremist in our own church 35:10 might be someone who talks too much 35:11 about religion for my nominal taste 35:14 and I'm offended by it. 35:16 Yes. 35:17 An extremist might be somebody who has decided 35:19 to dedicate their life to their religious faith, 35:22 you know, and Jesus said, 35:24 "whoever isn't willing to give up 35:27 father, mother, brother, sister for me is not worthy of me." 35:29 That's extremism. We know what lies behind. 35:33 That is someone who is willing to fly a plane 35:35 into a building or blow themselves up to kill someone. 35:37 But they are not the only extremists. 35:39 And I don't even think that's truly an extremist 35:43 in the normal religious sense. 35:45 But here, they've got us weary of extremists, 35:48 fundamentalists. 35:49 I've got to be fundamental about my faith 35:51 or I'm just a nominalist. 35:53 Yeah. Yeah. 35:54 So all of that which translates into anyone that thinks 35:57 other than what we say is here in the center. 36:01 I'm right with you and that's what I'm thinking. 36:02 Anybody other than that is dangerous. 36:04 Yeah, look under the rock and that's what you see. 36:06 They will undermine the common good. 36:08 Yes, yes. 36:09 And you don't have to even look at the Roman Catholic Church 36:11 or Christianity. 36:12 This model has being worked out many times 36:15 through the course of history, many times in the 20th 36:18 and now the 21st centuries. 36:19 Yeah. That's dangerous. 36:21 It is. 36:23 Dangerous for the individual, 36:24 dangerous for someone out of the norm. 36:26 Yeah, because if you want to marginalize a person, 36:28 the first thing you do is divide between us versus them. 36:32 We got us and then you got them. 36:34 And so if we all say it's good and that one group 36:38 where it says it is not, then it's us versus them. 36:41 They are extreme, they're out of step. 36:44 And that's what we see on the prophetic landscape-- 36:46 is going to happen. 36:48 For a grasping of hands, for a meeting of the minds 36:53 between Protestantism and Catholicism, 36:55 somebody's got to swallow a lot of doctrinal difference. 36:58 Somebody got to say, I believe this, 37:00 I believe this, I believe this. 37:02 No, forget it, you know, let's just sing together 37:04 come together and sing Kumbaya. 37:06 I said this once on this program a few years ago 37:08 but it's a good time to repeat this. 37:10 When I was in Australia back in the 70s, 37:14 several churches united. 37:15 They call themselves the Uniting Church. 37:17 But they were all Protestant churches 37:19 and gave away their individual identity 37:21 and formed a new church as a build up 37:24 to that many international church leaders came in. 37:26 And I remember that then Archbishop of Canterbury came 37:29 and they're all pitching the idea 37:31 that we need to be one common Christian faith. 37:34 It was an incredible synchronistic approach. 37:37 They re-wrote history. 37:38 They had history programs on TV 37:40 that told the Protestants split more from a political 37:45 rather than a doctrinal view point. 37:48 And then there was an interview that I will never forget 37:50 with the Archbishop and he said to the interviewer. 37:55 He says, "You know, we need to unite." 37:58 And he says, "Unity," 37:59 he says, "takes place on a pretty basic level. 38:01 Theologians, 38:03 they argue about these things endlessly," he said. 38:05 But it happens 38:06 when one church meets with another for afternoon tea 38:08 and they just socialize together." 38:10 So he says, "Join with us." 38:12 He says, "We can work out 38:13 the doctrinal differences later." 38:16 And the interviewer to his credit said, 38:17 "But what about if after this union 38:21 can't resolve the doctrinal differences?" 38:24 And I'll never forget it. 38:25 His eyes narrowed and he says, "Well, then," he says, 38:28 "it's like a diseased part of the body. 38:30 It must be cut out and destroyed." 38:33 And I hope he was speaking allegorically 38:35 or metaphorically. 38:37 But how do you destroy? I fear not. 38:39 A political, a religious opposition. 38:43 We know in the era of the inquisition 38:45 and the reformation period, 38:49 you lead to personal persecution or religious wars. 38:52 Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. 38:55 If you feel God is with you and God is on your side, 38:58 then any persecution carried forward is done so 39:00 in the name of God. 39:01 And is there by justified. So if it's disease, amputate. 39:06 And of course, when you, 39:07 if you are on the amputate side, 39:09 you are kind of in trouble but that's been the history 39:11 of the church when it's has had the ability to do so. 39:14 Right. And that's a key thing. Yeah. 39:15 Now we know that neither the religious right 39:19 as a political movement in the US, 39:21 nor the Pope of Rome 39:22 representing a political initiative from his church, 39:25 they don't have absolute power to snap the fingers 39:29 and cause their enemies to disappear. 39:30 If they did they'd be more disappearances. 39:34 Because there's many statements on the whole religious front 39:37 and, of course, Islam is the same at the moment. 39:39 There's many statements that are quite chilling. 39:43 So we need not give political power 39:45 to these religious agendas. 39:47 Yes, yes. 39:48 Something else that I wanted to talk about on the speech. 39:50 He used the term subsidiarity. 39:54 And we've had article in Liberty Magazine on this. 39:57 And this has been stated a lot by the Catholic Church. 40:02 There's a great irony here that now on religious liberty, 40:06 Protestants, so called religious right 40:10 or exhibit a talk religious liberty 40:14 but what they're really talking about more and more 40:16 is religious entitlement. 40:18 Uh, huh. Yes. 40:19 And that's part of religious liberty 40:21 but taken to a sense degree it's this clerk in... 40:27 In Kentucky? In Kentucky. 40:29 Because of her objection to gay marriage, 40:31 she's gonna stop it. 40:33 It isn't that she won't participate. 40:37 Her faith is against this. 40:38 So I'm entitled now to stop all of you. 40:42 That's more of the religious entitlement view. 40:47 The Catholic Church ironically have emerged 40:50 with that back drop and mostly Protestant groups, 40:53 they've emerged as a champion of religious liberty. 40:56 And I don't think it's all manufactured, 40:59 because of Vatican II, there was a new openness 41:01 that came into the Roman Catholic thinking 41:04 and the document there was the center of it 41:07 called Dignitatis humanae, the dignity of man, 41:10 says that you can change your religion 41:11 and whatever you settle on has dignity. 41:16 So the Roman Catholic Church 41:18 are a champion of religious liberty. 41:19 But they have explained a caveat, 41:23 and it's this term subsidiarity. 41:25 They say the church and state should be separate. 41:28 They say this in the United States. 41:30 I'm not sure they it in Europe. 41:32 The church and state should be separate 41:34 as the constitution mandates. 41:35 But the state is subsidiary to the church. 41:41 What is subsidiary mean? 41:43 That it's inferior or it's lower authority 41:45 which tells me 41:47 that the separation of church and state, 41:48 one is higher than the other. 41:49 But when necessity applies, 41:52 the church can assert that superiority. 41:56 And in the speech the Pope said it in a very curious 41:59 little turn of phrase that I've never heard before. 42:02 He said, he called for reciprocal subsidiarity. 42:09 Now how does one do that? 42:10 Well, I, you know, I'm looking of thoughts 42:12 into the mind of someone who didn't spell that clearly. 42:15 But I'm positive 42:17 that it means an assertion of this inherent right. 42:21 Under the subsidiarity principle. 42:24 What I think it means is on religious issues, 42:28 the church needs to intervene in the state. 42:31 Right. 42:32 And a bit of a two way dialogue, 42:34 the civil and religious affairs made 42:37 might be reciprocally dealt with 42:39 between the Church of Rome and the state. 42:42 And that's medieval. It is medieval. 42:45 And because if you massage the issue enough, 42:48 every issue will become moral. 42:50 You know, if you twist it and turn it enough, 42:53 paint it the right way, spin it enough, you can turn, 42:56 you can turn working seven days a week taking one day off 42:59 for your own good, that's moral. 43:02 The destruction of the earth, that's moral. 43:04 Any issue really sooner or later, 43:07 the church can say that's our purview. 43:09 That's not yours, that's ours. 43:10 Yeah. Yeah. 43:11 Including how men treat men, men treat women, 43:13 men treat the earth, you know, anything sooner or later. 43:16 So what you end up with is a church 43:18 that is still a little higher than the state 43:20 and can sort of bully the state around 43:22 when it has a moral issue. 43:24 Now they were interesting themes of work there 43:26 and I think most people recognize, 43:28 even though very few have read 43:30 the encyclical on the environment. 43:32 They could tell that his speech was resonating 43:35 with some of those same themes that were expressed there. 43:39 What troubles me as a Seventh-day Adventist 43:43 as someone that sees prophecy, 43:44 particularly, about that encyclical. 43:47 It's not the call for the environmental concern. 43:50 Seventh-day Adventist should have that. 43:52 You know, the First Angel's message 43:54 of the Three Angels' messages of Revelation 14, it says, 43:58 "Fear God and give glory to Him that created heaven and earth 44:04 because the hour of His judgment has come." 44:07 So it's an immediate proclamation 44:10 of the creator God. 44:11 If you would have fear and honor Him, 44:13 His judgment is coming. 44:14 Judgment partly comes 44:16 because we've been poor custodians of the earth's. 44:18 In God's word, it says, 44:19 "God is coming to destroy those who destroy the earth." 44:21 Very true. 44:23 So that's an absolutely Biblical concept 44:24 that the Pope has seized upon. 44:26 And I would hope that Seventh-day Adventist 44:29 and anybody that honors their Lord 44:31 would be a very good custodian of the environment. 44:34 There's nothing wrong with that at all. 44:36 In the document though, and as I look at it, 44:41 which is a secular concern, even though it derives 44:43 from the theology of the creator God. 44:46 But he is putting this out as a civil solution 44:50 to a world wide problem. 44:53 In the document it says this, gives the example. 44:56 And I have noticed that the Pope began by looking up 44:59 and seeing the by relief of Moses there in the capital. 45:04 So he mentioned Moses, the law giver, 45:06 the divine law, right. 45:08 And in the encyclical he says, 45:11 refers to the fact that the Jewish people, 45:14 Israel in the Old Testament kept the seventh day Sabbath 45:19 as a memorial of creation 45:21 and as a reminder of their custody of the environment. 45:25 And he says, and we too in keeping Sunday, 45:29 a non-Biblical day by the way, keeping Sunday, 45:33 we do it as a memorial of God's new creation, 45:36 the resurrection, that's fine. 45:38 There's no logic on that. 45:40 It does away with the seventh day Sabbath. 45:41 It says in keeping this Sunday, we keep it too as a reminder 45:47 of our custody of the environment. 45:48 So he has inserted 45:50 a very distinct religious view point, 45:53 in fact, the difference between Protestants, one of the-- 45:56 well, it's not difference 45:57 between Protestants and Catholics 45:58 but at root there's a difference 46:00 because the Sunday, you can read anywhere 46:03 Rome claims that they had the authority. 46:05 Yes. To change it. 46:07 So here is a point of dispute of religious people 46:11 and it's put out as part of the dictum 46:14 for solving the environment for all peoples. 46:17 And in Liberty Magazine, where I have to be very careful 46:19 because it's not a commentary on some one else's faith, 46:22 but I said that we would support this document 46:25 on the environment, you know, we should applaud it, 46:28 except where it has its most partisan. 46:33 And this is a partisan proclamation. 46:36 Very much so, very much so. 46:38 Was there anything else, 46:39 because the time is just slipping away from us, 46:41 in his speech that gave you pause or alarm. 46:44 Well, I've gone to those things. 46:47 What gives me alarm is the mere fact 46:50 that he was speaking to congress. 46:51 You know, we know procedurally 46:53 how he came to be speaking there, 46:55 of course, the prestige in Protestant America 46:58 of the papacy is been rising, not just for this Pope, 47:00 his predecessor Benedict, when he came, 47:03 the President Bush met him at the airport. 47:06 Never done with heads of state, but he met right at the airport 47:10 and he said, he looked into his eyes and he saw God. 47:13 I mean, it's a pretty high bar. Yes. 47:16 And so this present Pope comes again as a conquering hero. 47:21 But that said, no religious leader 47:24 had ever before has spoken 47:26 before the joint session of Congress. 47:29 It's just without precedent. 47:31 Some significant figures had in the past, Rafael, 47:35 has spoken there shortly after the republic was formed, 47:37 but of course, he was the conquering hero. 47:39 Yes. 47:41 Few months ago now, Netanyahu spoke there. 47:44 And I think, they still ruffle feathers after that. 47:48 That was a very inappropriate speech on many levels. 47:51 Yes. 47:52 But it should have been seen as highly inappropriate 47:54 for any religious leader, least of all, 47:58 the Pope of Rome to come to this Protestant society, 48:02 not a Protestant government, 48:05 but a secular government and speak. 48:07 But it happened because the majority leader, Boehner 48:11 and the minority leader Nancy Pelosi, 48:14 both Roman Catholics. 48:15 Yes. Very comfortable for them. 48:18 I don't know the full story, it may never be known 48:20 but it made sense to me that Boehner resigned the day after. 48:26 I think there some noise behind the scenes 48:28 because they went out on a big limb to do this. 48:32 So the... 48:35 the affright or the affront that we should take, 48:38 I think it's just that this happened, period. 48:40 He didn't have to say anything so significant 48:44 for it to be historic and troubling. 48:47 Yeah, there were several who said, 48:49 okay, this Pope is too political. 48:51 Well, the fact that you are here talking to this body 48:54 is a political statement in and of itself 48:56 regardless of what you are commentary is or your-- 48:59 Some Seventh-day Adventists of more paranoid sort, 49:04 were saying unless he recommended 49:07 an immediate Sunday law with a force of-- 49:10 full force of law, 49:11 then it wasn't anything to remark on. 49:12 Yeah. Well, this-- 49:14 They're missing point of this. Right, precisely. Yeah. 49:16 If he had done so, it still wouldn't have been enacted. 49:19 At this particular moment in time, 49:21 they're enough people who value liberty in general, 49:25 not just the separation of the church and state. 49:26 That wouldn't fly. Right. 49:28 But the ground has been laid, 49:31 the amnesia is sufficient that we discussed earlier. 49:35 Well said. Yeah. When the crisis comes. 49:37 I believe there's a very good chance 49:39 that it will appear because it's been noised abroad 49:41 by this Pope in Europe and even in another fora 49:45 here in the United States, the institute of the family 49:47 met same time he was here. 49:49 And they have been calling very strongly 49:51 for the family rest day, which happens to be Sunday. 49:55 And it's a pseudo civil day. Yes. 49:58 Saves money like day light saving, 50:00 it allows the community to rejuvenate itself, 50:04 to have environmental concerns and also, not coincidentally, 50:09 go to church and have spiritual rituals. 50:11 And it seems very reasonable, you know, we were, 50:14 it's very reasonable. 50:16 Yeah. Yes. It's not offensive in itself. 50:18 But it clearly is a camel's nose 50:21 into the flap of a bigger tent. 50:25 Very true, very true. 50:26 Changing gears just a little bit, Lincoln. 50:28 How much do you think we are willing to surrender 50:31 individual rights and even our own Protestant identities 50:35 on the alter of world peace? 50:37 I mean, the thing that's driving world, 50:39 now we got ISIS, we got this, we got that, 50:41 we got this craziness. 50:43 If somebody can say, I got the answer to that, 50:45 I think I can pull off through this in together, 50:47 how much do you think we will lay down our arms 50:49 and just say, okay, lead me, I will follow you? 50:51 Well, you said, lay down your arms. 50:54 The one thing that Americans are not yet ready 50:57 to lay down, are their arms. 50:59 Yes, yes, very true. That is true. 51:02 I don't know about that battle but as afar as civil liberties 51:05 in general, it's been proven since 9/11. 51:07 We're willing as in the aggregate 51:10 to give away everything for security, everything. 51:13 And it's been said, 51:14 you know, people stood up shortly after 9/11. 51:16 I don't, someone said, "I don't care if President Bush 51:19 knows what I'm doing in my bathroom. 51:21 If I can be safe, I'll give away the freedoms." 51:24 And of course, there's the statement 51:25 from one of the founders of the US, 51:27 I think it was Benjamin Franklin, 51:29 "Those that are willing to give up 51:32 liberties for security, don't deserve security or liberty." 51:37 And when I said, I really meant in a metaphorical state, 51:42 those things that define me, 51:43 those things that I have taken for granted as mine by right, 51:46 I'm willing to surrender to you if you say 51:48 you can give me peace, I will give you this 51:50 because I want peace more than anything else. 51:52 I know many people including 51:54 at least, one or two presidential candidates 51:57 at the moment are touting American exceptionalism. 52:00 And they mean something 52:02 of a sort of a religious view on that. 52:04 But in reality America is not exceptional 52:07 on the level we're talking about here. 52:09 We're just made up of many human beings 52:10 that behave similarly under crisis and distressed 52:14 or other human beings either in other countries 52:16 or at other times. 52:18 And people have shown an incredible predilection 52:21 to giving way to a strong man who offers security 52:25 even as he takes away 52:27 thing that they might otherwise cherish. 52:28 Very true. 52:29 And the US is not an innotimmune 52:31 wherein in a rush to give away things 52:34 or to close their eyes and these happen. 52:39 You know, there's good evidence to think every phone call, 52:42 every communication, every electronic transaction 52:46 you has been monolized or studied to determine 52:50 whether you are a suitable person to deliver this country. 52:53 And that you went exactly where I was hoping you would. 52:56 Boy, this hour has gone so fast. 52:58 I want go put up now some contact information. 53:00 Should you like to make contact 53:01 with Liberty Magazine, with Lincoln Steed, 53:05 here's the information that you're gonna need. 53:09 If you'd like to know more about this ministry, 53:11 then you can write to Liberty Magazine 53:13 12501, Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, Maryland 20904. 53:20 That's Liberty Magazine 12501, Old Columbia Pike, 53:25 Silver Spring, Maryland 20904. 53:28 You can call (301) 680-6690. 53:33 That's (301) 680-6690. 53:37 You can also visit them on the web 53:39 at libertymagazine.org. 53:41 That's libertymagazine.org. 53:45 Contact them today. 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