I want to spend my life
00:00:01.53\00:00:07.44
Mending broken people
00:00:07.47\00:00:12.41
I want to spend my life
00:00:12.44\00:00:18.65
Removing pain
00:00:18.68\00:00:23.65
Lord, let my words Let my words
00:00:23.69\00:00:29.86
Heal a heart that hurts
00:00:29.89\00:00:34.46
I want to spend my life
00:00:34.50\00:00:40.24
Mending broken people
00:00:40.27\00:00:45.74
I want to spend my life
00:00:45.77\00:00:51.21
Mending broken people
00:00:51.25\00:00:57.02
Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today.
00:01:07.50\00:01:09.13
My name is C.A. Murray.
00:01:09.16\00:01:10.50
And allow me once again
to thank you for sharing
00:01:10.53\00:01:12.47
just a little of
your busy day with us,
00:01:12.50\00:01:14.90
for your love, your prayers,
your support of this ministry.
00:01:14.94\00:01:17.41
For we realize that we cannot do
00:01:17.44\00:01:19.01
what we are called
to do without your help
00:01:19.04\00:01:20.68
and your partnership.
00:01:20.71\00:01:22.04
So from the bottom of our hearts
00:01:22.08\00:01:23.51
we do say thank you.
00:01:23.55\00:01:24.88
This is a very
special 3ABN Today program.
00:01:24.91\00:01:27.95
First of all, we
have a person here
00:01:27.98\00:01:29.32
who doesn't
normally appear on this set,
00:01:29.35\00:01:31.65
though he is no doubt
a familiar face to you
00:01:31.69\00:01:33.76
here at 3ABN
00:01:33.79\00:01:35.52
because he is the
host of Liberty Insider.
00:01:35.56\00:01:38.56
He's also the
editor of Liberty Magazine.
00:01:38.59\00:01:41.26
And he is none
other than Lincoln Steed.
00:01:41.30\00:01:42.63
Lincoln, good to have you here.
00:01:42.66\00:01:44.00
Well, it's great
to be on the program.
00:01:44.03\00:01:45.83
We-- first of all,
I appreciate Lincoln
00:01:45.87\00:01:47.34
because he always
brings good news when he comes.
00:01:47.37\00:01:49.64
He always has some
thing of important to say
00:01:49.67\00:01:52.61
and perhaps what
he's going to say this day
00:01:52.64\00:01:54.61
maybe is of as
important as anything
00:01:54.64\00:01:57.35
he has ever said on this set.
00:01:57.38\00:01:59.28
And this person
you would like talk to,
00:01:59.31\00:02:00.92
because he kind of keeps his ear
00:02:00.95\00:02:02.52
to ground he
knows what's going on
00:02:02.55\00:02:03.89
in the church and in the world.
00:02:03.92\00:02:05.42
And as you all know, the
Pope visited this country
00:02:05.45\00:02:10.69
just several days ago and
Lincoln was in that group,
00:02:10.73\00:02:16.06
that massive number
that without a number
00:02:16.10\00:02:20.74
or one would almost say.
00:02:20.77\00:02:22.87
And so we've come to
sort of pick his brain
00:02:22.90\00:02:24.94
a little bit on his
thoughts as respects the visit,
00:02:24.97\00:02:29.61
its impact on the
church, impact this country
00:02:29.64\00:02:33.82
and just to give us an over view
00:02:33.85\00:02:35.32
and perhaps touch on some things
00:02:35.35\00:02:36.89
that you may not
know or may have known
00:02:36.92\00:02:40.12
and have forgotten about.
00:02:40.16\00:02:41.49
But just to give us his feel
00:02:41.52\00:02:43.22
as editor of Liberty Magazine,
00:02:43.26\00:02:44.76
as someone who is involved
in church state relations
00:02:44.79\00:02:47.86
and different kinds of things.
00:02:47.90\00:02:49.23
We wanted to
sort of have him come
00:02:49.26\00:02:50.60
and just give us the
digest of his quite acute mind
00:02:50.63\00:02:55.37
as to what's going on.
00:02:55.40\00:02:56.74
And Lincoln, I want to ask you,
00:02:56.77\00:02:58.11
I want to start in sort
of an off beat kind of place
00:02:58.14\00:03:02.21
because you were
there, you saw the security.
00:03:02.24\00:03:08.05
And as we heard the security
00:03:08.08\00:03:11.25
for this pontiff was as massive,
00:03:11.29\00:03:14.79
as great, as thorough as
any head of state anywhere,
00:03:14.82\00:03:19.36
any time in the
history of dealing
00:03:19.39\00:03:21.53
with these kinds of things.
00:03:21.56\00:03:22.90
Give us some sense
of the flavor you got
00:03:22.93\00:03:24.30
as you looked at the
security preparation.
00:03:24.33\00:03:26.27
I've never seen
anything like it, you know.
00:03:26.30\00:03:27.97
I've lived in Washington
00:03:28.00\00:03:29.40
since I was
quite a young fellow.
00:03:29.44\00:03:30.81
I've been through
the riots that followed
00:03:30.84\00:03:33.01
Martin Luther
King's assassination.
00:03:33.04\00:03:35.81
And I can remember Washington
burning in the security
00:03:35.84\00:03:38.41
with the national
guard and the police.
00:03:38.45\00:03:40.52
This was on a
higher level in my view.
00:03:40.55\00:03:42.65
There were uniformed
00:03:42.68\00:03:44.92
and actually battle
equipped ATF agents.
00:03:44.95\00:03:49.56
There were border
agents, border patrol.
00:03:49.59\00:03:52.93
There were
immigration officials,
00:03:52.96\00:03:55.73
there were military police,
00:03:55.76\00:03:57.60
there were homeland security,
there were regular military,
00:03:57.63\00:04:03.67
of course, the local police.
00:04:03.71\00:04:05.07
There was-- and
plain cloths policemen.
00:04:05.11\00:04:08.94
It was massive.
00:04:08.98\00:04:10.31
In fact, they were
almost more security people
00:04:10.35\00:04:13.08
than those there to
watch the video thrown
00:04:13.11\00:04:17.25
at back of the capital.
00:04:17.29\00:04:18.79
There were 55, 000
people according to one guard
00:04:18.82\00:04:21.49
when I asked him.
00:04:21.52\00:04:22.86
But they were all clustered
in a huge crowd at the back.
00:04:22.89\00:04:25.26
But beyond that there
was chain- link fencing
00:04:25.29\00:04:27.96
with the labyrinthine approaches
00:04:28.00\00:04:31.03
where you are corralled,
00:04:31.07\00:04:32.40
sort of like cattle
being funneled into the area
00:04:32.43\00:04:35.00
and beyond that nobody.
00:04:35.04\00:04:36.71
No cars, hardly anybody walking
00:04:36.74\00:04:39.31
and they were
invariable turned back.
00:04:39.34\00:04:41.34
It was crowd
control on a massive scale.
00:04:41.38\00:04:43.85
So people were where
they wanted them to be
00:04:43.88\00:04:46.45
and no place else.
00:04:46.48\00:04:47.82
And even the area
behind the capital,
00:04:47.85\00:04:50.99
we were not all in one area.
00:04:51.02\00:04:52.79
We were divided up
into at least three sections
00:04:52.82\00:04:55.56
by the chain-linked fencing.
00:04:55.59\00:04:57.13
So they just want the
crowd coalescing into one group.
00:04:57.16\00:05:00.10
And I don't know
what they are afraid of,
00:05:00.13\00:05:01.80
other than some attempt,
you know, violent incident.
00:05:01.83\00:05:05.97
That's always
possible in this modern world.
00:05:06.00\00:05:08.10
But that would have by
definition be a small event.
00:05:08.14\00:05:11.17
But why there was
00:05:11.21\00:05:12.54
this sort of a
militarization of downtown.
00:05:12.57\00:05:14.51
I don't really know.
00:05:14.54\00:05:16.58
Maybe they simply wanted--
00:05:16.61\00:05:19.08
And there are a
number of reasons.
00:05:19.11\00:05:20.45
One could be, they were trying
to tamp down the unexpected
00:05:20.48\00:05:26.79
because as was
said, this particular Pope
00:05:26.82\00:05:30.19
tended to go off
script in his actions
00:05:30.23\00:05:33.76
any time he chose to do so.
00:05:33.80\00:05:35.66
Well, that's true. Yeah.
00:05:35.70\00:05:37.03
But what I read
into was it's a dry run
00:05:37.07\00:05:39.73
for further events like this.
00:05:39.77\00:05:41.74
Yes, yeah.
00:05:41.77\00:05:43.10
And that's not
being prophetic or dismal.
00:05:43.14\00:05:46.24
I think we're
entering into a new era
00:05:46.27\00:05:48.01
where the unexpected can happen.
00:05:48.04\00:05:50.05
Things were
little out of control
00:05:50.08\00:05:51.81
as the problem
with Second Coming
00:05:51.85\00:05:54.92
that I like to
say, things fall apart.
00:05:54.95\00:05:57.09
The center cannot hold.
And they are falling apart.
00:05:57.12\00:05:59.59
Yes.
00:05:59.62\00:06:00.96
And that's part of the appeal,
00:06:00.99\00:06:02.49
I think for the secular
minded politicians of this Pope.
00:06:02.52\00:06:05.93
Because he helps to
give a sense of order
00:06:05.96\00:06:08.66
of what's going on.
00:06:08.70\00:06:10.37
The term was used
over and over again,
00:06:10.40\00:06:13.90
"Rock star" as far as
popularity is concerned.
00:06:13.94\00:06:17.41
Did you get that sense
as you sort of interface
00:06:17.44\00:06:19.97
in the crowd there
and talked with people
00:06:20.01\00:06:21.34
or people talked with you,
did you get that kind of feel?
00:06:21.38\00:06:24.45
Well, there's no question
there's an element of that.
00:06:24.48\00:06:26.92
Whether how much of--
that was because of the crowd.
00:06:26.95\00:06:30.75
I don't know the breakdown
00:06:30.79\00:06:32.12
but there was
obviously a very high biased
00:06:32.15\00:06:34.32
toward Roman
Catholics in the crowd.
00:06:34.36\00:06:38.19
It's natural. They
have more of an interest.
00:06:38.23\00:06:41.80
Then the occasion sort of
created a sense of moment.
00:06:41.83\00:06:45.73
How much of it is,
00:06:45.77\00:06:47.10
because of this individual Pope,
00:06:47.14\00:06:49.00
I don't know.
00:06:49.04\00:06:50.37
I think one
thing builds on another
00:06:50.41\00:06:52.57
and we've created
a sort of a persona
00:06:52.61\00:06:54.74
or the media has created a
persona for this present Pope
00:06:54.78\00:06:58.51
and all that he represents
and people respond to the hope
00:06:58.55\00:07:02.25
that's thrown at them.
00:07:02.28\00:07:03.62
Yeah.
00:07:03.65\00:07:04.99
His style was not flamboyant.
00:07:05.02\00:07:06.86
What he said was
actually a little more muted
00:07:06.89\00:07:09.02
than some of his recent
pronouncements in his writings,
00:07:09.06\00:07:12.93
although they
were allusions there.
00:07:12.96\00:07:14.30
And we'll talk a
little further about
00:07:14.33\00:07:15.83
what went on there.
00:07:15.86\00:07:17.20
But I think we're being
conditioned as a society
00:07:17.23\00:07:21.00
and even as a world society
00:07:21.04\00:07:22.94
to sort of see
this is a grand moment.
00:07:22.97\00:07:26.21
But if you look
at dispassionately,
00:07:26.24\00:07:28.01
it's an old guy
in a white dress.
00:07:28.04\00:07:33.42
Sorry.
00:07:33.45\00:07:36.62
I guess that is a
way to look at it.
00:07:36.65\00:07:38.89
And of course, a lot of this
00:07:38.92\00:07:40.72
and how much of this
is his personal charisma,
00:07:40.76\00:07:43.49
how much of this is
response to media hype
00:07:43.53\00:07:45.56
because every sneeze,
00:07:45.59\00:07:47.53
every move was talked about
again, and again and again.
00:07:47.56\00:07:50.93
Now I need to throw something
00:07:50.97\00:07:52.30
in because I might say things
before this program is over.
00:07:52.33\00:07:55.04
But my father who's been
dead eight years ago now,
00:07:55.07\00:07:57.91
but he had many
dealings with world leaders
00:07:57.94\00:07:59.81
and on the international stage.
00:07:59.84\00:08:01.68
And he believed like me
00:08:01.71\00:08:03.24
and you as a
Seventh-day Adventist
00:08:03.28\00:08:05.05
that we are living
through prophetic events.
00:08:05.08\00:08:07.65
Many times I
tell him some things
00:08:07.68\00:08:09.18
that were happening
00:08:09.22\00:08:10.89
and his invariable response
was, "Isn't it exciting?"
00:08:10.92\00:08:15.42
He says, "The
Lord is about to come."
00:08:15.46\00:08:18.13
So one level we can
work ourselves into a lather,
00:08:18.16\00:08:21.50
the historical
diminution of Protestant America
00:08:21.53\00:08:26.07
or the apparent leaness
of some of the final events
00:08:26.10\00:08:29.74
of Revelation,
Sunday law and so on.
00:08:29.77\00:08:32.14
But the overall
context is exciting
00:08:32.17\00:08:34.78
because we are surging
toward the grand moment
00:08:34.81\00:08:36.68
when Christ will come.
00:08:36.71\00:08:38.05
Yes.
00:08:38.08\00:08:39.41
But I, particularly,
00:08:39.45\00:08:40.78
when I talk to
Seventh-day Adventist
00:08:40.82\00:08:42.15
I sense a sort of a paranoia
that can easily come into this.
00:08:42.18\00:08:46.59
I remember at one church I
was talking to a group about
00:08:46.62\00:08:49.76
these types of events and
a fellow on the front seat
00:08:49.79\00:08:52.86
called out to me, he
says, "Tell us," he says,
00:08:52.89\00:08:54.76
"when should we be afraid?"
00:08:54.80\00:08:58.73
Well, you know,
"Perfect love casts out fear."
00:08:58.77\00:09:00.57
"Casts our fear."
Yeah. We should be afraid.
00:09:00.60\00:09:01.94
But we need to be
sorbent about these things.
00:09:01.97\00:09:04.81
This is not time for secular
happiness in the sense that,
00:09:04.84\00:09:07.81
you know, vine, woman
and song and happiness
00:09:07.84\00:09:09.68
and just empty celebration.
00:09:09.71\00:09:13.31
These are serious
times. They are, they are.
00:09:13.35\00:09:15.22
And it's very obvious to me
00:09:15.25\00:09:17.59
that the bishop of
Rome is playing for keeps.
00:09:17.62\00:09:19.72
Oh, yeah.
00:09:19.75\00:09:21.09
This is not just a PR
endeavor to come to America.
00:09:21.12\00:09:24.56
This is the seat of Protestant,
modern Protestantism.
00:09:24.59\00:09:28.86
And for the bishop
of Rome to come here
00:09:28.90\00:09:31.53
as the conquering hero,
is a grand historical moment
00:09:31.57\00:09:35.17
that people should
understand for what it is.
00:09:35.20\00:09:37.81
It's something unprecedented
00:09:37.84\00:09:41.58
and it fits in
to the stated plans
00:09:41.61\00:09:45.51
of the papacy over at
least a hundred years.
00:09:45.55\00:09:48.65
And it fits into prophecy.
00:09:48.68\00:09:50.35
Yeah, yeah, and you know--
00:09:50.39\00:09:51.72
And I said that on this air
that when you look at Europe,
00:09:51.75\00:09:56.32
you got a lot of beautiful
churches that are empty.
00:09:56.36\00:09:58.69
So when you talk about
Protestantism as a movement,
00:09:58.73\00:10:02.13
you're talking
about the United States.
00:10:02.16\00:10:03.50
And there is no
way to get around that.
00:10:03.53\00:10:04.93
Well, North America.
00:10:04.97\00:10:07.10
So if you want
to, and I use the term
00:10:07.14\00:10:09.17
in very general term,
is conquer Protestantism.
00:10:09.20\00:10:11.24
If you want to have impact,
00:10:11.27\00:10:12.61
you got to have the impact here.
00:10:12.64\00:10:14.31
There is no way to
get away from that.
00:10:14.34\00:10:16.85
Besides-- and I
want you to give us
00:10:16.88\00:10:20.72
a little more of a
historical perspective.
00:10:20.75\00:10:25.52
Because I've
been in conversations
00:10:25.55\00:10:26.89
where people have
said, one of the things
00:10:26.92\00:10:28.92
that the Pope was able
to do, and I use the term,
00:10:28.96\00:10:33.23
sanitize the image
of the Catholic Church.
00:10:33.26\00:10:36.83
There was up until
just a few years ago
00:10:36.87\00:10:38.57
when you thought
about the Catholic Church,
00:10:38.60\00:10:41.30
you thought about
the priestly misbehavior
00:10:41.34\00:10:45.71
and that was front and center.
00:10:45.74\00:10:48.28
That's what you thought about.
00:10:48.31\00:10:51.38
And in the two
years the time and change
00:10:51.41\00:10:54.48
that he's been in,
the thought is different.
00:10:54.52\00:10:57.19
He's been able-- so
give us in broad strokes
00:10:57.22\00:11:00.69
some of the context of
the history of the church
00:11:00.72\00:11:03.26
and from where you
sitting what you said.
00:11:03.29\00:11:04.73
Well, you touch on one thing
00:11:04.76\00:11:06.09
that I have no
personal answer to.
00:11:06.13\00:11:07.80
I don't understand
how a system and to repeat
00:11:07.83\00:11:13.60
which has such
a systemic problem
00:11:13.64\00:11:16.81
with this sexual abuse.
00:11:16.84\00:11:21.04
You know, it's not
just that it happens
00:11:21.08\00:11:22.61
to some of the
priests or been indulged in.
00:11:22.64\00:11:24.28
This is the
byproduct of the very structure
00:11:24.31\00:11:26.58
and the aberrant behavior
that's required of a priest.
00:11:26.61\00:11:30.35
Yes.
00:11:30.39\00:11:31.72
You know, I could
even say it's unnatural.
00:11:31.75\00:11:33.69
I don't understand how
with that scandal going on
00:11:33.72\00:11:37.39
and it's going away.
00:11:37.43\00:11:41.00
The whole edifice
of Rome represented
00:11:41.03\00:11:42.96
by the Pope himself
00:11:43.00\00:11:44.80
is never been higher
in public estimation.
00:11:44.83\00:11:47.64
I don't understand that.
00:11:47.67\00:11:49.80
Part of the way that
they rehabilitated themselves
00:11:49.84\00:11:52.37
was in a document,
less than a decade ago
00:11:52.41\00:11:56.11
called Memory
and Reconciliation.
00:11:56.14\00:11:59.58
And in that document--
00:11:59.61\00:12:00.95
Which was reported
widely in the media.
00:12:00.98\00:12:02.95
This was under,
00:12:02.98\00:12:04.32
well, it's a bit
more than a decade ago
00:12:04.35\00:12:05.69
with Pope John Paul II
00:12:05.72\00:12:07.06
in the winding
days of his papacy.
00:12:07.09\00:12:08.92
They came out with a document
written by his successor
00:12:08.96\00:12:11.53
who was then head
of the inquisition,
00:12:11.56\00:12:14.80
Cardinal Ratzinger.
00:12:14.83\00:12:16.93
And they apologized
00:12:16.97\00:12:18.63
for the
inquisition, they apologized
00:12:18.67\00:12:20.84
for the persecution of the Jews,
00:12:20.87\00:12:22.37
they apologized for
the sack of Constantinople,
00:12:22.40\00:12:24.67
which was the fourth Crusade
00:12:24.71\00:12:27.14
that was manipulated by
several forces including Venice
00:12:27.18\00:12:31.81
and the bishop of Rome to
neutralize their opposition
00:12:31.85\00:12:35.62
in the Christian world.
00:12:35.65\00:12:36.99
Yes.
00:12:37.02\00:12:38.35
That was the
cause of the great split
00:12:38.39\00:12:39.72
between Eastern Orthodox
and the Roman Catholic Church.
00:12:39.75\00:12:41.79
Roman Catholic Church, yeah.
00:12:41.82\00:12:43.16
All of this is
apologized for in a sort of a--
00:12:43.19\00:12:45.66
I've got children
00:12:45.69\00:12:47.03
and they often
have to apologize.
00:12:47.06\00:12:48.80
They tend not to
apologize full frontal.
00:12:48.83\00:12:51.97
It's like, "If I did this or...
00:12:52.00\00:12:54.24
If I offended you, I'm sorry.
00:12:54.27\00:12:55.60
And I must admit, the document
is a little in that manner.
00:12:55.64\00:12:59.04
It holds back the magisterium
or the innate authority
00:12:59.07\00:13:03.24
and goodness of
the church saying it,
00:13:03.28\00:13:04.71
of course, can't do any wrong.
00:13:04.75\00:13:06.58
But people who happen to
be Catholics did these things
00:13:06.61\00:13:09.38
that we apologize for.
00:13:09.42\00:13:11.12
But it was a very
important document
00:13:11.15\00:13:14.09
that was well reported
on and I think Rome intended
00:13:14.12\00:13:18.49
and it seems to have worked
00:13:18.53\00:13:20.10
that they've cut themselves
loose from their history,
00:13:20.13\00:13:23.26
which, of course, includes
the issue with Protestantism.
00:13:23.30\00:13:26.87
The coerced Protestantism. Yes.
00:13:26.90\00:13:28.37
So they are very unembarrassed
now about the past.
00:13:28.40\00:13:31.34
And many
Protestants in the United States
00:13:31.37\00:13:35.04
seem also to have
cut loose from their past
00:13:35.08\00:13:37.71
and forgotten why
they are Protestants.
00:13:37.75\00:13:39.41
So it's a very
dangerous past in my view,
00:13:39.45\00:13:42.45
to forget your history,
you know, within our church,
00:13:42.48\00:13:46.52
Ellen White
writing to early Adventists
00:13:46.55\00:13:48.52
as well as other
secular figures outside
00:13:48.56\00:13:51.23
in national affairs
have often reminded people
00:13:51.26\00:13:54.13
that you forget
history at your peril.
00:13:54.16\00:13:57.17
Yes, yes.
00:13:57.20\00:13:58.53
And that's what
really troubled me
00:13:58.57\00:14:00.77
of the recent events with this
latest visit of a Pope of Rome,
00:14:00.80\00:14:03.94
of course, there's
been two before him
00:14:03.97\00:14:06.04
that I can
remember in my lifetime.
00:14:06.07\00:14:08.04
But we're
forgetting our history.
00:14:08.08\00:14:10.18
And yet, in the case of
the Roman Catholic Church,
00:14:10.21\00:14:14.72
and the Curia, or
the administered as it--
00:14:14.75\00:14:19.42
and the magisterium
that they depend on.
00:14:19.45\00:14:23.19
It has not changed at all.
00:14:23.22\00:14:24.56
Its goals are
unchanged and incompatible
00:14:24.59\00:14:28.46
with the
principles of Protestantism.
00:14:28.50\00:14:30.83
And indeed and
this is that level
00:14:30.87\00:14:32.20
that I tried to confine it
00:14:32.23\00:14:33.67
to Liberty Magazine which deals
00:14:33.70\00:14:35.60
with religious
liberty for all people.
00:14:35.64\00:14:38.47
On the level of
religious liberty,
00:14:38.51\00:14:40.11
of course, doesn't
matter what people believe
00:14:40.14\00:14:42.48
when you're fighting
for religious liberty.
00:14:42.51\00:14:44.58
I might feel that I
am true, a Muslim feels
00:14:44.61\00:14:46.58
that he has a correct belief,
00:14:46.61\00:14:48.25
a Catholic, various Protestants,
00:14:48.28\00:14:50.55
Buddhists and so on.
00:14:50.59\00:14:51.92
It's immaterial the
truth of your belief
00:14:51.95\00:14:53.76
but for religious
liberty, is a principle
00:14:53.79\00:14:56.19
all should be allowed to believe
00:14:56.22\00:14:58.49
whatever moves their heart.
00:14:58.53\00:15:01.36
They should be
allowed to practice it,
00:15:01.40\00:15:02.83
to change it and so on.
00:15:02.86\00:15:04.40
And in the United
States that further mandates
00:15:04.43\00:15:07.17
a separation of
church and state,
00:15:07.20\00:15:09.20
which is a safety mechanism
to allow religion to flourish.
00:15:09.24\00:15:13.64
And this is the
mortal threat in my view,
00:15:13.68\00:15:17.05
to invite the bishop of Rome
and to address the politicians
00:15:17.08\00:15:21.05
as ahead of state
00:15:21.08\00:15:23.49
because you have a
religious leader speaking
00:15:23.52\00:15:26.76
as a politician to politicians,
00:15:26.79\00:15:29.32
in a country that is premised
00:15:29.36\00:15:30.86
on the separation
of church and state.
00:15:30.89\00:15:32.66
On that level, I
think we should yell it
00:15:32.69\00:15:35.73
from the housetops on
the level of discussing
00:15:35.76\00:15:39.03
the errors of Rome,
00:15:39.07\00:15:40.47
this program is very appropriate
00:15:40.50\00:15:41.87
because we are talking
to a religious audience.
00:15:41.90\00:15:43.47
But I hope people understand
00:15:43.51\00:15:45.97
that religious
liberty construct,
00:15:46.01\00:15:48.88
the civil
construct, on that level,
00:15:48.91\00:15:51.55
it's the structure
of the organization,
00:15:51.58\00:15:53.68
on the level of Biblical
truth and fulfill prophecy.
00:15:53.72\00:15:58.42
Of course, there's
a lot more going on.
00:15:58.45\00:16:01.12
Flash that out for me
just a little bit, Lincoln,
00:16:01.16\00:16:02.79
because a person who
perhaps doesn't look much below
00:16:02.82\00:16:08.30
the surface may say,
"So what's the problem?"
00:16:08.33\00:16:11.07
He's talking about
moral stuff, he is a moral guy
00:16:11.10\00:16:15.00
and we're talking about family,
00:16:15.04\00:16:17.77
we're talking about
taking care of the earth.
00:16:17.81\00:16:21.54
What's wrong
with a church leader
00:16:21.58\00:16:25.91
bringing that
stuff up before Congress?
00:16:25.95\00:16:29.12
Well, back to my basic point.
00:16:29.15\00:16:32.15
The US constitution was a
well thought out document.
00:16:32.19\00:16:36.16
It's not giving
on man's signing hour
00:16:36.19\00:16:38.69
but it was well thought through.
00:16:38.73\00:16:40.06
And it followed in the tradition
00:16:40.10\00:16:43.33
of liberal democratic views
00:16:43.37\00:16:45.37
that had engulfed most of Europe
00:16:45.40\00:16:47.77
and fled through England.
00:16:47.80\00:16:50.44
Got rid of the--
00:16:50.47\00:16:53.64
Well, I was hesitating to tell
the whole story which I won't.
00:16:53.68\00:16:56.41
But, you know, England
had a religious civil war.
00:16:56.44\00:16:58.28
Yes.
00:16:58.31\00:16:59.65
And they removed
the king who as the Pope
00:16:59.68\00:17:03.28
and the kings that
many Popes put in place.
00:17:03.32\00:17:06.92
He held the view that he
had a divine right to rule.
00:17:06.96\00:17:10.33
So he won't just challenging
00:17:10.36\00:17:13.76
the autocorrect
rule of the king.
00:17:13.80\00:17:15.13
You were challenging God.
00:17:15.16\00:17:16.50
But Protestant views in England
00:17:16.53\00:17:19.17
and the enlightenment
views that they gave us,
00:17:19.20\00:17:22.54
sense of the rights of
the individual swept away
00:17:22.57\00:17:25.01
that old system
and that moved across
00:17:25.04\00:17:27.68
into the United States
00:17:27.71\00:17:29.04
and we have a well
thought out democratic principle
00:17:29.08\00:17:33.45
that removed religion
from the political arena.
00:17:33.48\00:17:38.82
But the danger now is
we're inviting it back.
00:17:38.85\00:17:42.49
And like I
said, we're blindsided
00:17:42.52\00:17:44.56
when we have-
00:17:44.59\00:17:46.59
'cause there's
only really one vacuum,
00:17:46.63\00:17:48.83
when you have the Pope of Rome
00:17:48.86\00:17:50.57
who as they introduced him
as the Pope of the Holy Sea.
00:17:50.60\00:17:54.90
And I thought that was
a very interesting term
00:17:54.94\00:17:57.27
that was used
because the Holy Sea
00:17:57.31\00:17:58.91
is not the little 110,
120 acre of Vatican City
00:17:58.94\00:18:03.38
which is the smallest
city state in the world,
00:18:03.41\00:18:06.01
which gives him
governmental authority.
00:18:06.05\00:18:09.55
The Holy Sea is a
little bit different.
00:18:09.58\00:18:12.45
That is the
ecclesiastical governance
00:18:12.49\00:18:16.39
that the Pope
claims as the Pope of Rome.
00:18:16.42\00:18:19.66
So this is a spiritual property
00:18:19.69\00:18:23.50
and it could even
be enlarged to say
00:18:23.53\00:18:25.47
because every bishop has
a sea that's under the Pope.
00:18:25.50\00:18:28.97
In essence as when
they introduced him
00:18:29.00\00:18:30.51
as the Pope of the Holy Sea,
00:18:30.54\00:18:33.51
this was a spiritual
claim to almost the entire world
00:18:33.54\00:18:36.28
if not the Christian world.
00:18:36.31\00:18:37.65
Precisely. Yeah.
00:18:37.68\00:18:39.01
And that's so antithetical
to the democratic Protestant
00:18:39.05\00:18:44.29
egalitarian view of government
that it's mind boggling.
00:18:44.32\00:18:47.99
But the current trend in
Protestantism sees to be,
00:18:48.02\00:18:51.93
to embrace that.
00:18:51.96\00:18:53.83
From where you said.
00:18:53.86\00:18:55.20
Well, we should be
pleasant to the Pope
00:18:55.23\00:18:58.10
or to the Mullah or the Imam.
00:18:58.13\00:19:01.04
We're all human
beings an this a great truth
00:19:01.07\00:19:04.24
that the Pope has talked about
00:19:04.27\00:19:05.61
that you know, our common home,
00:19:05.64\00:19:07.74
common survival
here on this planet
00:19:07.78\00:19:09.44
is depended on all obeying
00:19:09.48\00:19:12.61
the reasonable rules of behavior
00:19:12.65\00:19:15.25
and seeking to
create communication
00:19:15.28\00:19:19.55
and even survival of the species
00:19:19.59\00:19:21.62
through care
for the environment.
00:19:21.66\00:19:26.23
But that's not the
same as embracing as truth
00:19:26.26\00:19:29.36
something that I'm
convinced might be error.
00:19:29.40\00:19:31.27
Yes.
00:19:31.30\00:19:32.63
Or negating a structural
element of a church state
00:19:32.67\00:19:39.54
that in the past has proven
00:19:39.57\00:19:41.14
to be quite dangerous
to individual freedom.
00:19:41.18\00:19:43.51
We have to have our guard up.
00:19:43.55\00:19:44.88
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:44.91\00:19:46.25
This then is-- the question
00:19:46.28\00:19:48.95
that I'm going to ask you
00:19:48.98\00:19:50.82
because from your vantage point,
00:19:50.85\00:19:54.96
how conversant do you
think the average Protestant
00:19:54.99\00:19:57.79
is with his own history,
vis-a-vis the Catholic Church.
00:19:57.83\00:20:03.60
Pretty good,
pretty bad, fair, how...
00:20:03.63\00:20:05.83
That's where I'm most
depressed on this whole thing.
00:20:05.87\00:20:08.50
Yes.
00:20:08.54\00:20:09.90
You know, this
visit came and went
00:20:09.94\00:20:12.27
and the world hasn't changed,
although the world has changed
00:20:12.31\00:20:15.24
in the last few decades
radically in regard to this.
00:20:15.28\00:20:18.88
But I think it's now
just a matter of time,
00:20:18.91\00:20:21.38
not of necessary
change to facilitate
00:20:21.42\00:20:24.62
what Seventh-day Adventist
has said will eventually result
00:20:24.65\00:20:27.92
in legal requirements
in the United States
00:20:27.96\00:20:32.06
to act a certain
way on religious edicts,
00:20:32.09\00:20:35.96
perhaps even a Sunday law.
00:20:36.00\00:20:40.27
Not this
presidential election cycle
00:20:40.30\00:20:42.34
but the one before a
Roman Catholic Senator,
00:20:42.37\00:20:46.31
Senator Santorum, he's
a wonderful human being.
00:20:46.34\00:20:48.88
We've had some dealings with him
00:20:48.91\00:20:51.01
through our church's
legislative liaison group
00:20:51.05\00:20:55.28
with that we were
hoping to get a work place
00:20:55.32\00:20:57.59
Religious
Freedom Restoration Act
00:20:57.62\00:20:59.35
and he was very cooperative.
00:20:59.39\00:21:00.72
But he was
running for president.
00:21:00.76\00:21:02.22
He's a dedicated Roman Catholic
00:21:02.26\00:21:04.49
and he made a statement
that created quite a furor
00:21:04.53\00:21:08.16
but I think it was
a correct statement.
00:21:08.20\00:21:10.20
He said, remember, speaking
as a Roman Catholic politician,
00:21:10.23\00:21:14.07
he said "Protestantism
is absent in America today."
00:21:14.10\00:21:19.14
That I believe is how
the Roman Catholic Church
00:21:19.17\00:21:21.78
sees the United States today.
00:21:21.81\00:21:24.01
Its Protestant
character has largely gone.
00:21:24.05\00:21:28.28
So then you are
basically right for the picking.
00:21:28.32\00:21:30.89
Right, that's
what I think. Yeah.
00:21:30.92\00:21:32.69
There's no inhibition to
whatever might come our way.
00:21:32.72\00:21:37.46
When I say no, I
mean, I'm generalizing.
00:21:37.49\00:21:39.26
Yes, yes, understood.
You can go on the internet.`
00:21:39.29\00:21:40.80
There's all sorts of
objections and some of it very--
00:21:40.83\00:21:45.07
some of them very
crazy because, you know,
00:21:45.10\00:21:46.77
they go out to the far spectrum.
00:21:46.80\00:21:48.34
There-- some awareness there
00:21:48.37\00:21:49.70
but in the whole,
00:21:49.74\00:21:51.51
I think the Protestant
awareness is dissipated.
00:21:51.54\00:21:54.41
Okay, okay.
00:21:54.44\00:21:55.78
And that could be
for any number of things.
00:21:55.81\00:21:58.15
The question is if
it's fumbling itself
00:21:58.18\00:22:00.08
in my mind is, if I say
the following names, you--
00:22:00.12\00:22:05.79
they strike a
chord in your mind,
00:22:05.82\00:22:07.49
Albigenses, Waldenses, Cathari,
00:22:07.52\00:22:13.80
trying to think
some other groups,
00:22:13.83\00:22:15.16
you have a
context for those names.
00:22:15.20\00:22:19.00
Well-- let me
give you a plain fact
00:22:19.03\00:22:22.30
of American public lives
00:22:22.34\00:22:23.67
that I think based
on whether this isknown.
00:22:23.71\00:22:26.81
Once-- it's possible
00:22:26.84\00:22:28.61
during the
presidential election.
00:22:28.64\00:22:30.08
People have a
fairly good recognition
00:22:30.11\00:22:32.01
of who is running or
perhaps who is president.
00:22:32.05\00:22:34.75
But in the in between times,
00:22:34.78\00:22:36.25
it's been shown that
the over whelming majority
00:22:36.28\00:22:38.85
of Americans cannot
name the sitting president.
00:22:38.89\00:22:42.86
So do you think that they
know who the Albigenses are?
00:22:42.89\00:22:47.80
The Waldenses? Yeah.
00:22:47.83\00:22:49.53
But the lack of
knowledge or understanding
00:22:49.56\00:22:52.03
impacts upon your
desire or your ability,
00:22:52.07\00:22:55.44
your capacity to
embrace a doctrinal system
00:22:55.47\00:23:00.21
which is really
antithetical to your own.
00:23:00.24\00:23:02.48
You are a Protestant.
00:23:02.51\00:23:04.51
There's a lot of people
who couldn't define that term
00:23:04.55\00:23:07.68
and don't know when it began,
where it began, how it began,
00:23:07.72\00:23:11.12
and the pushback
against that term
00:23:11.15\00:23:13.79
from the Roman Catholic Church.
00:23:13.82\00:23:15.16
That's why I
brought those names to you
00:23:15.19\00:23:16.52
because if those
groups were not exterminated,
00:23:16.56\00:23:19.56
they were close to exterminated.
00:23:19.59\00:23:21.03
So there was a history
that the average American
00:23:21.06\00:23:24.33
is not aware of
00:23:24.37\00:23:25.70
and it impacts
upon his willingness
00:23:25.73\00:23:28.30
to sort of hold
hands and sing Kumbaya
00:23:28.34\00:23:29.84
because he doesn't know the...
00:23:29.87\00:23:31.21
And what's important
about those groups and--
00:23:31.24\00:23:33.88
They were in Europe
00:23:33.91\00:23:36.54
around 250 years plus ago.
00:23:36.58\00:23:42.18
But they were not persecuted
by the Roman Catholic Church.
00:23:42.22\00:23:45.19
They were persecuted at a time
00:23:45.22\00:23:46.82
when the Roman Catholic
Church was the confidant
00:23:46.86\00:23:49.99
and indeed the
legitimizing power
00:23:50.03\00:23:53.16
for all of the secular powers.
00:23:53.19\00:23:54.53
Yes, yes.
00:23:54.56\00:23:55.90
And they told
the different powers
00:23:55.93\00:23:58.33
like the Dukes
of Savoy and so on.
00:23:58.37\00:24:00.87
"These are unacceptable
religious minorities,
00:24:00.90\00:24:03.44
deal with them."
00:24:03.47\00:24:04.81
Yes, yes.
00:24:04.84\00:24:06.17
And all the...
00:24:06.21\00:24:07.54
So the church used the
powers that were there...
00:24:07.58\00:24:09.44
I can tell you, the
Protestant sensibility
00:24:09.48\00:24:11.45
during the-- in England
00:24:11.48\00:24:13.48
when Oliver Cromwell,
00:24:13.52\00:24:15.15
who's been spoken
badly of many historians
00:24:15.18\00:24:19.12
but in reality,
00:24:19.15\00:24:20.49
who is a
champion of Protestantism.
00:24:20.52\00:24:22.16
While he was Lord
Protector of England,
00:24:22.19\00:24:24.26
after the civil war,
00:24:24.29\00:24:25.76
he heard about the
case of the Waldenses
00:24:25.79\00:24:28.40
and he said that unless
they stop persecuting them,
00:24:28.43\00:24:31.17
he would lead an
English Protestant army
00:24:31.20\00:24:33.13
to relieve them.
00:24:33.17\00:24:34.50
So that was the sensibility
of Protestantism in England
00:24:34.54\00:24:38.34
and that was carried across,
00:24:38.37\00:24:40.31
of course, to United
States in its infancy.
00:24:40.34\00:24:45.51
We've kept a
separation of church and state
00:24:45.55\00:24:47.32
but the Protestant
sensibility was very strong.
00:24:47.35\00:24:49.82
Let me tell you
something in the speech.
00:24:49.85\00:24:51.75
We haven't spoken
about the Pope's speech
00:24:51.79\00:24:53.49
before Congress.
00:24:53.52\00:24:55.82
Overall, it was not
an objectionable speech,
00:24:55.86\00:24:58.56
although we need to deconstruct
it a little what was in there.
00:24:58.59\00:25:02.63
I came originally from Australia
00:25:02.66\00:25:04.13
but I've lived most of my
life in the United States.
00:25:04.17\00:25:06.30
So I hope I
think like an American.
00:25:06.33\00:25:08.64
And as I sat there
at the back listening,
00:25:08.67\00:25:11.51
I was just dumbstruck
00:25:11.54\00:25:13.34
with what the
Pope did in his speech.
00:25:13.38\00:25:15.04
He based it, you
know, it was all themed
00:25:15.08\00:25:17.85
on linking into his
encyclical on the environment.
00:25:17.88\00:25:21.65
He was using a lot
of those same ideas,
00:25:21.68\00:25:24.45
not so direct as in the document
00:25:24.49\00:25:26.96
but he was alluding to that.
00:25:26.99\00:25:28.52
He was alluding to
what we might discuss
00:25:28.56\00:25:30.23
a little more things
like the common good,
00:25:30.26\00:25:32.23
reciprocity and
so on, subsidiarity.
00:25:32.26\00:25:36.93
But he structured his
speech around four individuals.
00:25:36.97\00:25:40.30
They were two Roman
Catholics, a man and a woman.
00:25:40.34\00:25:42.67
I know why he did that.
00:25:42.70\00:25:44.04
That was to
integrate Roman Catholic faith
00:25:44.07\00:25:47.84
and practice and
heroes and heroines
00:25:47.88\00:25:51.71
into American, Americana.
00:25:51.75\00:25:54.52
But his other-- the
other two characters,
00:25:54.55\00:25:57.35
one made perfect sense
00:25:57.39\00:25:58.72
'cause he
resonated with the themes
00:25:58.75\00:26:00.46
he was talking about
was Martin Luther King.
00:26:00.49\00:26:03.12
The first one
was Abraham Lincoln.
00:26:03.16\00:26:04.83
Yes.
00:26:04.86\00:26:06.66
Did it strike
you as a little odd?
00:26:06.70\00:26:08.53
Yeah, it just seems sort
of an unnatural placement
00:26:08.56\00:26:12.50
of that particular figure
in what he was trying to do.
00:26:12.53\00:26:14.94
And now, I read a lot.
00:26:14.97\00:26:16.30
I don't claim to
have read everything
00:26:16.34\00:26:17.77
that's been printed since then.
00:26:17.81\00:26:19.51
But reading and listening,
00:26:19.54\00:26:21.28
I have yet had to
see a comment by anybody
00:26:21.31\00:26:24.38
as to what was going on there.
00:26:24.41\00:26:26.25
Yeah.
00:26:26.28\00:26:27.62
I think this was
like waving a red rag
00:26:27.65\00:26:29.38
in front of someone to see
if there even color- sensitive.
00:26:29.42\00:26:35.32
Because Abraham
Lincoln was assassinated,
00:26:35.36\00:26:37.89
most people remember
by John Wilkes Booth.
00:26:37.93\00:26:41.50
They might have forgotten.
00:26:41.53\00:26:42.86
There was a conspiracy.
Four other people were hanged.
00:26:42.90\00:26:46.94
Yes.
00:26:46.97\00:26:48.30
And four or five were arrested
00:26:48.34\00:26:50.21
and received
long prison sentences.
00:26:50.24\00:26:51.57
It was a conspiracy in
the home of Mary Surratt.
00:26:51.61\00:26:54.34
Yes, yes, yes.
00:26:54.38\00:26:55.71
Her brother,
which is interesting
00:26:55.74\00:26:59.11
part of the story
fled the authorities
00:26:59.15\00:27:02.55
and went to Canada,
00:27:02.58\00:27:05.75
who sheltered by
Roman Catholic priest.
00:27:05.79\00:27:07.92
Then he went to Rome
00:27:07.96\00:27:09.29
and ended up in
the Pope's bodyguard.
00:27:09.32\00:27:11.06
All but one of the conspiritants
00:27:11.09\00:27:13.19
were Roman Catholics.
00:27:13.23\00:27:15.56
They were several
priests that were in that home.
00:27:15.60\00:27:17.97
And the time more significant--
00:27:18.00\00:27:20.34
what really
happened at the time,
00:27:20.37\00:27:22.50
America believed
that it was a Jesuit plot
00:27:22.54\00:27:25.21
to kill Abraham Lincoln.
00:27:25.24\00:27:26.57
Yeah, I recall that.
00:27:26.61\00:27:27.94
Yeah, there's a great book
00:27:27.98\00:27:29.31
came out just a
couple of years ago.
00:27:29.34\00:27:30.68
Real thick one
that I began to read...
00:27:30.71\00:27:32.05
And at the
moment, Robert Redford
00:27:32.08\00:27:33.42
is doing a film on this.
00:27:33.45\00:27:34.78
So it's gonna come up again.
00:27:34.82\00:27:36.95
The very least of it,
keep quiet about that.
00:27:36.99\00:27:41.09
You know that was a period
00:27:41.12\00:27:42.62
when not only
was the United States
00:27:42.66\00:27:44.79
deeply Protestant,
it was deeply prejudiced
00:27:44.83\00:27:47.36
against
Catholics, often violently.
00:27:47.40\00:27:49.06
And that's not a good
part of American history.
00:27:49.10\00:27:51.47
True.
00:27:51.50\00:27:53.03
But it was the
extreme manifestation
00:27:53.07\00:27:55.50
of this solid
Protestant identity
00:27:55.54\00:27:59.24
that was the time
when the Pope of Rome
00:27:59.27\00:28:01.84
was railing against
00:28:01.88\00:28:03.45
this Protestant experiment here.
00:28:03.48\00:28:06.58
Its success in the
civil war was problematic
00:28:06.61\00:28:10.59
for the geopolitical
aims of the papacy in Europe.
00:28:10.62\00:28:15.06
And they had made
murmuring comments
00:28:15.09\00:28:18.23
against Abraham Lincoln.
00:28:18.26\00:28:19.66
So it was not
unnatural for America to think
00:28:19.69\00:28:21.90
that this is not
just a few people
00:28:21.93\00:28:24.67
that happen to
be Roman Catholic,
00:28:24.70\00:28:26.17
that there was
something seditious going on
00:28:26.20\00:28:28.84
instigated by
papacy as they used to say.
00:28:28.87\00:28:31.21
Yes.
00:28:31.24\00:28:32.57
That's just the fact of history.
00:28:32.61\00:28:34.28
Which has been lost
over in these many years.
00:28:34.31\00:28:37.05
Few people know that.
00:28:37.08\00:28:38.41
So few people would have
connected the dots on that.
00:28:38.45\00:28:39.85
And the Pope got
every right to speak of it.
00:28:39.88\00:28:41.48
You know, it's a free world.
00:28:41.52\00:28:43.15
And I'm sure I
doubt they got the script
00:28:43.18\00:28:45.25
from him in Venice but
this is just amazing to me
00:28:45.29\00:28:47.69
that there would be the
boldness to put it there
00:28:47.72\00:28:49.99
and the de-sensitivity,
or the lack of memory
00:28:50.03\00:28:52.83
that anyone didn't notice that.
00:28:52.86\00:28:54.20
Yeah. Just flat didn't know.
00:28:54.23\00:28:55.76
So I can't think of
a better illustration
00:28:55.80\00:28:57.90
of how far we've come.
00:28:57.93\00:29:00.30
We're-- you know that
doesn't compute anymore.
00:29:00.34\00:29:02.67
Yes, yes.
00:29:02.70\00:29:04.04
So when we talk
about the protest
00:29:04.07\00:29:07.01
and people stand up and
say the protest is over,
00:29:07.04\00:29:09.54
that kind of
mind set is embraced
00:29:09.58\00:29:11.98
because you simply
have nothing else--
00:29:12.01\00:29:13.35
Well, the
illusion you are making,
00:29:13.38\00:29:15.25
I don't know if
it's been discussed
00:29:15.28\00:29:16.62
on any of your programs
but a couple of years ago
00:29:16.65\00:29:20.26
an Episcopal
priest named Tony Palmer
00:29:20.29\00:29:22.86
stood up before
an evangelical group
00:29:22.89\00:29:26.63
of Kenneth Copeland's
leadership conference.
00:29:26.66\00:29:29.46
And he said, "The
reformation's over,
00:29:29.50\00:29:32.67
you're all Roman Catholics now."
00:29:32.70\00:29:34.14
Well, you know
it's not quite true
00:29:34.17\00:29:35.90
but that's the inference
00:29:35.94\00:29:37.77
and the basis for
that was a 1999 agreement
00:29:37.81\00:29:41.41
between the World
Lutheran Federation
00:29:41.44\00:29:44.38
and the Roman Catholics,
00:29:44.41\00:29:46.72
where they decided
Luther's differences
00:29:46.75\00:29:49.65
on righteousness by
faith were a misunderstanding.
00:29:49.68\00:29:52.29
And the Catholic Church
has not changed because--
00:29:52.32\00:29:54.82
I read that agreement.
00:29:54.86\00:29:56.19
They said in
entering into this agreement,
00:29:56.22\00:29:58.09
they by no
means were repudiating
00:29:58.13\00:30:00.53
the Council of Trent
which condemned the Lutheran
00:30:00.56\00:30:02.93
and the Protestant Reformation.
00:30:02.96\00:30:05.73
They said, but, in discussion,
we realize that Lutherans today
00:30:05.77\00:30:09.67
hold something much more
amenable to Catholic doctrine.
00:30:09.70\00:30:14.44
So we can decide that it's over.
00:30:14.48\00:30:17.75
And then the Methodist in
2008 made a similar agreement--
00:30:17.78\00:30:22.15
or accepted that agreement.
00:30:22.18\00:30:24.02
So Protestantism
is being rolled back,
00:30:24.05\00:30:26.86
not just in popular sensibility
but in structural alignment.
00:30:26.89\00:30:30.79
Yeah. It's been
decided it's over.
00:30:30.83\00:30:32.59
So when Tony Palmer can say
that you're all Catholics now.
00:30:32.63\00:30:36.87
The reformation's over.
00:30:36.90\00:30:38.50
Even allowing for hyperbole,
he had some basis in that.
00:30:38.53\00:30:41.17
Yes, yes.
00:30:41.20\00:30:42.54
Now what's
interesting, Lincoln, is that
00:30:42.57\00:30:44.44
if you look at the beast
that has changed its stripes,
00:30:44.47\00:30:48.61
it's more Protestantism
than the Catholic Church.
00:30:48.64\00:30:50.55
This Pope had said...
00:30:50.58\00:30:51.91
And you and I know Ellen White
00:30:51.95\00:30:53.28
speaking to
Seventh-day Adventist,
00:30:53.31\00:30:54.65
this would happen.
00:30:54.68\00:30:56.02
She says, "Rome will
cover with apologies,
00:30:56.05\00:30:57.49
all their errors
but she is unchanged."
00:30:57.52\00:30:59.89
And I don't think
that's a malicious statement.
00:30:59.92\00:31:04.63
I read these papal documents.
00:31:04.66\00:31:06.13
They claim themselves
that they are not changing
00:31:06.16\00:31:08.10
in the magisterium
and the long term purposes
00:31:08.13\00:31:12.57
and they make a point
in all these documents
00:31:12.60\00:31:14.67
which ever Pope it is,
00:31:14.70\00:31:16.04
he alludes to
previous papal statements.
00:31:16.07\00:31:17.67
They are trying to show
00:31:17.71\00:31:19.04
the continuum of
authority and thought.
00:31:19.07\00:31:21.38
And what I felt was interesting
00:31:21.41\00:31:22.74
and I did not hear
this statement myself
00:31:22.78\00:31:24.31
but I heard one of the reporters
00:31:24.35\00:31:25.68
who was on the plane saying
00:31:25.71\00:31:27.15
we'd some of the bad
food this kind of thing.
00:31:27.18\00:31:29.32
He said when we went back
and sat and talked with him,
00:31:29.35\00:31:32.49
he made it clear the
Pope did, "I'm not a reformer.
00:31:32.52\00:31:36.32
You guys are painting me as
this, left this guy who is hear
00:31:36.36\00:31:40.23
to tear down all
that went before.
00:31:40.26\00:31:43.20
That's not me.
That's not my job.
00:31:43.23\00:31:45.27
And you
shouldn't paint me as such.
00:31:45.30\00:31:46.74
I'm not hear to change anything.
00:31:46.77\00:31:49.67
I'm here to reaffirm.
00:31:49.70\00:31:51.27
Now my style is different
but I'm not here to rip down
00:31:51.31\00:31:55.08
2000 years of history.
00:31:55.11\00:31:56.44
I'm here to follow
in the trajectory--
00:31:56.48\00:31:57.81
What he is doing in the
Friday before the Pope's speech
00:31:57.85\00:32:02.52
before Congress, I'd
attended an all day seminar
00:32:02.55\00:32:04.79
at Catholic University
00:32:04.82\00:32:07.06
and they were some
interesting speeches there.
00:32:07.09\00:32:09.09
And one from Archbishop Lori
of the Archbishop of Baltimore,
00:32:09.12\00:32:14.20
he told they are a little bit
00:32:14.23\00:32:15.56
about the Pope say
if it's a "reform."
00:32:15.60\00:32:16.93
They used the term
but what they really mean
00:32:16.97\00:32:18.50
is structural
realignment within the church.
00:32:18.53\00:32:20.74
Yes.
00:32:20.77\00:32:22.10
They are
changing a lot of things
00:32:22.14\00:32:23.47
to be more
focused on their agenda.
00:32:23.51\00:32:26.57
And he actually told us a story
00:32:26.61\00:32:28.51
that that I found
a little troubling.
00:32:28.54\00:32:31.45
The person that the
Pope had set in place
00:32:31.48\00:32:35.95
as appoint man for reform,
00:32:35.98\00:32:39.75
come under great
attack as they expected.
00:32:39.79\00:32:42.69
And then at the key point,
00:32:42.72\00:32:44.56
a charge was
brought against this man,
00:32:44.59\00:32:47.46
this priest that he was
traveling with the male lover.
00:32:47.50\00:32:52.27
And the Archbishop Lori
said that such is his commitment
00:32:52.30\00:32:56.94
to reform that he refused
to call for his resignation.
00:32:56.97\00:33:02.24
And it was in
response to a question
00:33:02.28\00:33:04.08
about this
situation on the plane
00:33:04.11\00:33:05.95
where the Pope
said, "Who am I to judge?"
00:33:05.98\00:33:08.68
And then made some
more general statements
00:33:08.72\00:33:10.49
about homosexuality.
00:33:10.52\00:33:12.05
Well, that's admirable
00:33:12.09\00:33:13.42
that he's going
to pursue his agenda.
00:33:13.46\00:33:15.12
But it's a little
problematic, morally ambiguous.
00:33:15.16\00:33:19.03
They wouldn't root out something
00:33:19.06\00:33:21.90
on its own moral case.
00:33:21.93\00:33:24.93
But it's more important
to pursue this realignment
00:33:24.97\00:33:27.67
because the realignment,
I think is everything to do
00:33:27.70\00:33:30.41
with his advancing, the
case of Rome against old comers,
00:33:30.44\00:33:35.71
particularly, Protestants.
00:33:35.74\00:33:37.85
So it's a restructuring
to fortify ourselves
00:33:37.88\00:33:41.62
for what we see
as coming as opposed
00:33:41.65\00:33:43.79
to a sociological change
or even a theological change
00:33:43.82\00:33:47.09
and where we're going
and what we're trying to do.
00:33:47.12\00:33:50.06
On the speech, they
were couple of other things
00:33:50.09\00:33:53.09
that I alluded to
earlier that I need to at least
00:33:53.13\00:33:55.86
before people or
viewers are forgotten.
00:33:55.90\00:33:58.50
Over and over again,
the Pope used to term
00:33:58.53\00:34:00.57
that now is
broadly used but I know
00:34:00.60\00:34:02.87
it really started
in a religious context,
00:34:02.90\00:34:05.31
the common good.
00:34:05.34\00:34:07.44
And that chills my
heart more than anything.
00:34:07.48\00:34:10.75
That one kind of
just makes you squirm
00:34:10.78\00:34:12.31
in your seat a little bit.
00:34:12.35\00:34:13.68
You know, in the
Bible the Pharisees
00:34:13.72\00:34:17.45
or the Sanhedrin
said that it is better
00:34:17.49\00:34:19.52
that one man die than
the nation should perish.
00:34:19.55\00:34:22.46
Precisely.
00:34:22.49\00:34:23.83
That's what the
common good translation do.
00:34:23.86\00:34:25.99
It sounds all Kumbaya
and you know, campfireish.
00:34:26.03\00:34:31.50
Yeah.
00:34:31.53\00:34:32.87
You know, we're gonna defend
00:34:32.90\00:34:34.54
against the wolves out
there for the common good
00:34:34.57\00:34:36.50
we'll all do something together.
00:34:36.54\00:34:38.21
But you know, it has
echoes in my view of communism
00:34:38.24\00:34:41.48
to start with in
anti-communist America.
00:34:41.51\00:34:46.18
I'm surprised that that
doesn't bother more people.
00:34:46.21\00:34:49.68
As the Pope expressed
00:34:49.72\00:34:51.05
that the common good
for our survival means,
00:34:51.09\00:34:52.92
as he said
later, that we be weary,
00:34:52.95\00:34:55.59
he didn't say
what we do with them.
00:34:55.62\00:34:57.29
But we avoid and
be weary of extremists
00:34:57.33\00:35:01.56
and fundamentalists.
00:35:01.60\00:35:03.70
Well, how do
define an extremist?
00:35:03.73\00:35:07.50
An extremist in our own church
00:35:07.54\00:35:10.41
might be someone
who talks too much
00:35:10.44\00:35:11.81
about religion
for my nominal taste
00:35:11.84\00:35:14.61
and I'm offended by it.
00:35:14.64\00:35:15.98
Yes.
00:35:16.01\00:35:17.35
An extremist might be
somebody who has decided
00:35:17.38\00:35:19.68
to dedicate their life
to their religious faith,
00:35:19.71\00:35:22.38
you know, and Jesus said,
00:35:22.42\00:35:24.52
"whoever isn't
willing to give up
00:35:24.55\00:35:27.12
father, mother, brother, sister
for me is not worthy of me."
00:35:27.16\00:35:28.99
That's extremism. We
know what lies behind.
00:35:29.02\00:35:33.36
That is someone who
is willing to fly a plane
00:35:33.40\00:35:35.10
into a building or blow
themselves up to kill someone.
00:35:35.13\00:35:37.37
But they are not
the only extremists.
00:35:37.40\00:35:39.43
And I don't even think
that's truly an extremist
00:35:39.47\00:35:43.51
in the normal religious sense.
00:35:43.54\00:35:45.37
But here, they've got
us weary of extremists,
00:35:45.41\00:35:48.31
fundamentalists.
00:35:48.34\00:35:49.71
I've got to be
fundamental about my faith
00:35:49.74\00:35:51.65
or I'm just a nominalist.
00:35:51.68\00:35:53.01
Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:53.05\00:35:54.62
So all of that which translates
into anyone that thinks
00:35:54.65\00:35:57.95
other than what we
say is here in the center.
00:35:57.99\00:36:01.36
I'm right with you and
that's what I'm thinking.
00:36:01.39\00:36:02.96
Anybody other
than that is dangerous.
00:36:02.99\00:36:04.89
Yeah, look under the
rock and that's what you see.
00:36:04.93\00:36:06.26
They will
undermine the common good.
00:36:06.29\00:36:07.96
Yes, yes.
00:36:08.00\00:36:09.33
And you don't have to even look
at the Roman Catholic Church
00:36:09.36\00:36:11.43
or Christianity.
00:36:11.47\00:36:12.80
This model has being
worked out many times
00:36:12.83\00:36:15.80
through the course of
history, many times in the 20th
00:36:15.84\00:36:18.51
and now the 21st centuries.
00:36:18.54\00:36:19.94
Yeah. That's dangerous.
00:36:19.97\00:36:21.88
It is.
00:36:21.91\00:36:23.24
Dangerous for the individual,
00:36:23.28\00:36:24.61
dangerous for
someone out of the norm.
00:36:24.65\00:36:26.31
Yeah, because if you
want to marginalize a person,
00:36:26.35\00:36:28.92
the first thing you do is
divide between us versus them.
00:36:28.95\00:36:32.42
We got us and then you got them.
00:36:32.45\00:36:34.42
And so if we all say
it's good and that one group
00:36:34.46\00:36:38.19
where it says it is not,
then it's us versus them.
00:36:38.23\00:36:41.46
They are extreme,
they're out of step.
00:36:41.50\00:36:44.10
And that's what we see
on the prophetic landscape--
00:36:44.13\00:36:46.67
is going to happen.
00:36:46.70\00:36:48.67
For a grasping of hands,
for a meeting of the minds
00:36:48.70\00:36:53.27
between
Protestantism and Catholicism,
00:36:53.31\00:36:55.94
somebody's got to swallow a
lot of doctrinal difference.
00:36:55.98\00:36:58.31
Somebody got to
say, I believe this,
00:36:58.35\00:37:00.72
I believe this, I believe this.
00:37:00.75\00:37:02.08
No, forget it, you
know, let's just sing together
00:37:02.12\00:37:04.92
come together and sing Kumbaya.
00:37:04.95\00:37:06.29
I said this once on
this program a few years ago
00:37:06.32\00:37:08.39
but it's a good
time to repeat this.
00:37:08.42\00:37:10.23
When I was in
Australia back in the 70s,
00:37:10.26\00:37:14.20
several churches united.
00:37:14.23\00:37:15.76
They call
themselves the Uniting Church.
00:37:15.80\00:37:17.33
But they were all
Protestant churches
00:37:17.37\00:37:19.27
and gave away
their individual identity
00:37:19.30\00:37:21.44
and formed a new
church as a build up
00:37:21.47\00:37:24.04
to that many international
church leaders came in.
00:37:24.07\00:37:26.94
And I remember that then
Archbishop of Canterbury came
00:37:26.98\00:37:29.18
and they're all
pitching the idea
00:37:29.21\00:37:31.15
that we need to be one
common Christian faith.
00:37:31.18\00:37:34.75
It was an incredible
synchronistic approach.
00:37:34.78\00:37:37.29
They re-wrote history.
00:37:37.32\00:37:38.72
They had history programs on TV
00:37:38.75\00:37:40.49
that told the Protestants
split more from a political
00:37:40.52\00:37:45.26
rather than a
doctrinal view point.
00:37:45.29\00:37:48.10
And then there was an interview
that I will never forget
00:37:48.13\00:37:50.17
with the Archbishop and
he said to the interviewer.
00:37:50.20\00:37:55.20
He says, "You
know, we need to unite."
00:37:55.24\00:37:58.11
And he says, "Unity,"
00:37:58.14\00:37:59.54
he says, "takes place
on a pretty basic level.
00:37:59.57\00:38:01.68
Theologians,
00:38:01.71\00:38:03.04
they argue about these
things endlessly," he said.
00:38:03.08\00:38:05.01
But it happens
00:38:05.05\00:38:06.38
when one church meets
with another for afternoon tea
00:38:06.41\00:38:08.65
and they just
socialize together."
00:38:08.68\00:38:10.29
So he says, "Join with us."
00:38:10.32\00:38:12.15
He says, "We can work out
00:38:12.19\00:38:13.52
the doctrinal
differences later."
00:38:13.56\00:38:16.02
And the
interviewer to his credit said,
00:38:16.06\00:38:17.76
"But what about
if after this union
00:38:17.79\00:38:21.86
can't resolve the
doctrinal differences?"
00:38:21.90\00:38:24.53
And I'll never forget it.
00:38:24.57\00:38:25.90
His eyes narrowed and he
says, "Well, then," he says,
00:38:25.93\00:38:28.10
"it's like a
diseased part of the body.
00:38:28.14\00:38:29.97
It must be cut
out and destroyed."
00:38:30.01\00:38:33.38
And I hope he was
speaking allegorically
00:38:33.41\00:38:35.51
or metaphorically.
00:38:35.54\00:38:37.51
But how do you
destroy? I fear not.
00:38:37.55\00:38:39.88
A political, a
religious opposition.
00:38:39.91\00:38:43.12
We know in the
era of the inquisition
00:38:43.15\00:38:45.95
and the reformation period,
00:38:45.99\00:38:49.36
you lead to personal
persecution or religious wars.
00:38:49.39\00:38:52.53
Yeah, yeah. And
that's the thing.
00:38:52.56\00:38:55.06
If you feel God is with
you and God is on your side,
00:38:55.10\00:38:58.03
then any persecution
carried forward is done so
00:38:58.07\00:39:00.24
in the name of God.
00:39:00.27\00:39:01.67
And is there by justified.
So if it's disease, amputate.
00:39:01.70\00:39:06.57
And of course, when you,
00:39:06.61\00:39:07.94
if you are on the amputate side,
00:39:07.98\00:39:09.41
you are kind of in trouble
but that's been the history
00:39:09.44\00:39:11.78
of the church when it's
has had the ability to do so.
00:39:11.81\00:39:14.48
Right. And that's
a key thing. Yeah.
00:39:14.52\00:39:15.85
Now we know that
neither the religious right
00:39:15.88\00:39:19.89
as a political
movement in the US,
00:39:19.92\00:39:21.36
nor the Pope of Rome
00:39:21.39\00:39:22.96
representing a political
initiative from his church,
00:39:22.99\00:39:25.73
they don't have absolute
power to snap the fingers
00:39:25.76\00:39:29.00
and cause their
enemies to disappear.
00:39:29.03\00:39:30.77
If they did they'd
be more disappearances.
00:39:30.80\00:39:34.27
Because there's many statements
on the whole religious front
00:39:34.30\00:39:37.61
and, of course, Islam
is the same at the moment.
00:39:37.64\00:39:39.57
There's many statements
that are quite chilling.
00:39:39.61\00:39:42.98
So we need not
give political power
00:39:43.01\00:39:45.71
to these religious agendas.
00:39:45.75\00:39:47.08
Yes, yes.
00:39:47.12\00:39:48.45
Something else that I wanted
to talk about on the speech.
00:39:48.48\00:39:50.72
He used the term subsidiarity.
00:39:50.75\00:39:54.59
And we've had article in
Liberty Magazine on this.
00:39:54.62\00:39:57.59
And this has been stated a
lot by the Catholic Church.
00:39:57.63\00:40:02.86
There's a great irony here
that now on religious liberty,
00:40:02.90\00:40:06.67
Protestants, so
called religious right
00:40:06.70\00:40:10.44
or exhibit a
talk religious liberty
00:40:10.47\00:40:13.98
but what they're really
talking about more and more
00:40:14.01\00:40:16.81
is religious entitlement.
00:40:16.85\00:40:18.45
Uh, huh. Yes.
00:40:18.48\00:40:19.81
And that's part
of religious liberty
00:40:19.85\00:40:21.48
but taken to a sense
degree it's this clerk in...
00:40:21.52\00:40:27.16
In Kentucky? In Kentucky.
00:40:27.19\00:40:29.46
Because of her
objection to gay marriage,
00:40:29.49\00:40:31.79
she's gonna stop it.
00:40:31.83\00:40:33.73
It isn't that she
won't participate.
00:40:33.76\00:40:37.23
Her faith is against this.
00:40:37.27\00:40:38.60
So I'm entitled
now to stop all of you.
00:40:38.63\00:40:42.54
That's more of the
religious entitlement view.
00:40:42.57\00:40:44.81
The Catholic Church
ironically have emerged
00:40:47.98\00:40:50.75
with that back drop and
mostly Protestant groups,
00:40:50.78\00:40:53.45
they've emerged as a
champion of religious liberty.
00:40:53.48\00:40:56.22
And I don't think
it's all manufactured,
00:40:56.25\00:40:59.19
because of Vatican II,
there was a new openness
00:40:59.22\00:41:01.52
that came into the
Roman Catholic thinking
00:41:01.56\00:41:04.23
and the document
there was the center of it
00:41:04.26\00:41:07.70
called Dignitatis
humanae, the dignity of man,
00:41:07.73\00:41:10.10
says that you can
change your religion
00:41:10.13\00:41:11.93
and whatever you
settle on has dignity.
00:41:11.97\00:41:16.91
So the Roman Catholic Church
00:41:16.94\00:41:18.27
are a champion of
religious liberty.
00:41:18.31\00:41:19.77
But they have
explained a caveat,
00:41:19.81\00:41:22.98
and it's this term subsidiarity.
00:41:23.01\00:41:25.38
They say the church and
state should be separate.
00:41:25.41\00:41:28.88
They say this in
the United States.
00:41:28.92\00:41:30.25
I'm not sure they it in Europe.
00:41:30.29\00:41:32.02
The church and
state should be separate
00:41:32.05\00:41:34.02
as the constitution mandates.
00:41:34.06\00:41:35.69
But the state is
subsidiary to the church.
00:41:35.72\00:41:41.73
What is subsidiary mean?
00:41:41.76\00:41:43.10
That it's inferior
or it's lower authority
00:41:43.13\00:41:45.60
which tells me
00:41:45.63\00:41:46.97
that the separation
of church and state,
00:41:47.00\00:41:48.34
one is higher than the other.
00:41:48.37\00:41:49.70
But when necessity applies,
00:41:49.74\00:41:52.51
the church can
assert that superiority.
00:41:52.54\00:41:56.61
And in the speech the
Pope said it in a very curious
00:41:56.64\00:41:59.95
little turn of phrase
that I've never heard before.
00:41:59.98\00:42:02.92
He said, he called for
reciprocal subsidiarity.
00:42:02.95\00:42:09.12
Now how does one do that?
00:42:09.16\00:42:10.66
Well, I, you know,
I'm looking of thoughts
00:42:10.69\00:42:12.53
into the mind of someone
who didn't spell that clearly.
00:42:12.56\00:42:15.56
But I'm positive
00:42:15.60\00:42:17.53
that it means an assertion
of this inherent right.
00:42:17.57\00:42:21.70
Under the
subsidiarity principle.
00:42:21.74\00:42:24.11
What I think it means
is on religious issues,
00:42:24.14\00:42:28.51
the church needs to
intervene in the state.
00:42:28.54\00:42:31.45
Right.
00:42:31.48\00:42:32.81
And a bit of a two way dialogue,
00:42:32.85\00:42:34.62
the civil and
religious affairs made
00:42:34.65\00:42:37.19
might be reciprocally dealt with
00:42:37.22\00:42:39.32
between the Church
of Rome and the state.
00:42:39.35\00:42:42.32
And that's
medieval. It is medieval.
00:42:42.36\00:42:44.99
And because if you
massage the issue enough,
00:42:45.03\00:42:48.30
every issue will become moral.
00:42:48.33\00:42:50.07
You know, if you
twist it and turn it enough,
00:42:50.10\00:42:53.34
paint it the right way,
spin it enough, you can turn,
00:42:53.37\00:42:56.27
you can turn working seven
days a week taking one day off
00:42:56.30\00:42:59.94
for your own good, that's moral.
00:42:59.97\00:43:02.08
The destruction of
the earth, that's moral.
00:43:02.11\00:43:04.71
Any issue
really sooner or later,
00:43:04.75\00:43:07.28
the church can say
that's our purview.
00:43:07.32\00:43:09.08
That's not yours, that's ours.
00:43:09.12\00:43:10.45
Yeah. Yeah.
00:43:10.49\00:43:11.82
Including how men
treat men, men treat women,
00:43:11.85\00:43:13.96
men treat the earth, you
know, anything sooner or later.
00:43:13.99\00:43:16.62
So what you end
up with is a church
00:43:16.66\00:43:18.59
that is still a
little higher than the state
00:43:18.63\00:43:20.93
and can sort of
bully the state around
00:43:20.96\00:43:22.76
when it has a moral issue.
00:43:22.80\00:43:24.13
Now they were
interesting themes of work there
00:43:24.17\00:43:26.03
and I think most
people recognize,
00:43:26.07\00:43:28.44
even though very few have read
00:43:28.47\00:43:30.67
the encyclical
on the environment.
00:43:30.71\00:43:32.81
They could tell that
his speech was resonating
00:43:32.84\00:43:35.88
with some of those same themes
that were expressed there.
00:43:35.91\00:43:39.21
What troubles me as
a Seventh-day Adventist
00:43:39.25\00:43:42.98
as someone that sees prophecy,
00:43:43.02\00:43:44.62
particularly,
about that encyclical.
00:43:44.65\00:43:47.46
It's not the call for
the environmental concern.
00:43:47.49\00:43:50.43
Seventh-day
Adventist should have that.
00:43:50.46\00:43:52.56
You know, the
First Angel's message
00:43:52.59\00:43:54.20
of the Three Angels' messages
of Revelation 14, it says,
00:43:54.23\00:43:58.77
"Fear God and give glory to Him
that created heaven and earth
00:43:58.80\00:44:04.31
because the hour of
His judgment has come."
00:44:04.34\00:44:07.64
So it's an
immediate proclamation
00:44:07.68\00:44:10.21
of the creator God.
00:44:10.25\00:44:11.58
If you would have
fear and honor Him,
00:44:11.61\00:44:13.42
His judgment is coming.
00:44:13.45\00:44:14.78
Judgment partly comes
00:44:14.82\00:44:16.15
because we've been poor
custodians of the earth's.
00:44:16.18\00:44:17.99
In God's word, it says,
00:44:18.02\00:44:19.35
"God is coming to destroy
those who destroy the earth."
00:44:19.39\00:44:21.86
Very true.
00:44:21.89\00:44:23.22
So that's an
absolutely Biblical concept
00:44:23.26\00:44:24.93
that the Pope has seized upon.
00:44:24.96\00:44:26.66
And I would hope
that Seventh-day Adventist
00:44:26.70\00:44:29.06
and anybody that
honors their Lord
00:44:29.10\00:44:31.40
would be a very good
custodian of the environment.
00:44:31.43\00:44:34.54
There's nothing
wrong with that at all.
00:44:34.57\00:44:36.60
In the document
though, and as I look at it,
00:44:36.64\00:44:41.01
which is a secular
concern, even though it derives
00:44:41.04\00:44:43.68
from the theology
of the creator God.
00:44:43.71\00:44:46.08
But he is putting this
out as a civil solution
00:44:46.11\00:44:50.89
to a world wide problem.
00:44:50.92\00:44:53.22
In the document it says
this, gives the example.
00:44:53.25\00:44:56.86
And I have noticed that
the Pope began by looking up
00:44:56.89\00:44:59.69
and seeing the by relief
of Moses there in the capital.
00:44:59.73\00:45:04.53
So he mentioned
Moses, the law giver,
00:45:04.57\00:45:06.63
the divine law, right.
00:45:06.67\00:45:08.20
And in the encyclical he says,
00:45:08.24\00:45:11.61
refers to the fact
that the Jewish people,
00:45:11.64\00:45:14.84
Israel in the Old Testament
kept the seventh day Sabbath
00:45:14.88\00:45:19.38
as a memorial of creation
00:45:19.41\00:45:21.55
and as a reminder of their
custody of the environment.
00:45:21.58\00:45:25.19
And he says, and we
too in keeping Sunday,
00:45:25.22\00:45:29.62
a non-Biblical day by
the way, keeping Sunday,
00:45:29.66\00:45:33.43
we do it as a
memorial of God's new creation,
00:45:33.46\00:45:36.10
the resurrection, that's fine.
00:45:36.13\00:45:38.73
There's no logic on that.
00:45:38.77\00:45:40.10
It does away with
the seventh day Sabbath.
00:45:40.14\00:45:41.94
It says in keeping this Sunday,
we keep it too as a reminder
00:45:41.97\00:45:47.08
of our custody
of the environment.
00:45:47.11\00:45:48.78
So he has inserted
00:45:48.81\00:45:50.61
a very distinct
religious view point,
00:45:50.65\00:45:53.85
in fact, the difference between
Protestants, one of the--
00:45:53.88\00:45:56.05
well, it's not difference
00:45:56.08\00:45:57.42
between
Protestants and Catholics
00:45:57.45\00:45:58.79
but at root there's a difference
00:45:58.82\00:46:00.16
because the Sunday,
you can read anywhere
00:46:00.19\00:46:03.53
Rome claims that
they had the authority.
00:46:03.56\00:46:05.59
Yes. To change it.
00:46:05.63\00:46:07.36
So here is a point of
dispute of religious people
00:46:07.40\00:46:11.87
and it's put out
as part of the dictum
00:46:11.90\00:46:14.87
for solving the
environment for all peoples.
00:46:14.90\00:46:17.41
And in Liberty Magazine,
where I have to be very careful
00:46:17.44\00:46:19.71
because it's not a commentary
on some one else's faith,
00:46:19.74\00:46:22.74
but I said that we
would support this document
00:46:22.78\00:46:25.75
on the environment, you
know, we should applaud it,
00:46:25.78\00:46:28.62
except where it
has its most partisan.
00:46:28.65\00:46:33.29
And this is a
partisan proclamation.
00:46:33.32\00:46:36.49
Very much so, very much so.
00:46:36.52\00:46:38.43
Was there anything else,
00:46:38.46\00:46:39.79
because the time is
just slipping away from us,
00:46:39.83\00:46:41.16
in his speech that
gave you pause or alarm.
00:46:41.20\00:46:44.47
Well, I've gone to those things.
00:46:44.50\00:46:47.30
What gives me
alarm is the mere fact
00:46:47.34\00:46:50.01
that he was
speaking to congress.
00:46:50.04\00:46:51.77
You know, we know procedurally
00:46:51.81\00:46:53.54
how he came to
be speaking there,
00:46:53.58\00:46:55.14
of course, the
prestige in Protestant America
00:46:55.18\00:46:57.98
of the papacy is been
rising, not just for this Pope,
00:46:58.01\00:47:00.72
his predecessor
Benedict, when he came,
00:47:00.75\00:47:03.92
the President Bush
met him at the airport.
00:47:03.95\00:47:06.59
Never done with heads of state,
but he met right at the airport
00:47:06.62\00:47:10.36
and he said, he looked
into his eyes and he saw God.
00:47:10.39\00:47:13.36
I mean, it's a
pretty high bar. Yes.
00:47:13.40\00:47:16.87
And so this present Pope comes
again as a conquering hero.
00:47:16.90\00:47:21.70
But that said,
no religious leader
00:47:21.74\00:47:24.24
had ever before has spoken
00:47:24.27\00:47:26.24
before the joint
session of Congress.
00:47:26.27\00:47:29.14
It's just without precedent.
00:47:29.18\00:47:31.21
Some significant
figures had in the past, Rafael,
00:47:31.25\00:47:35.02
has spoken there shortly
after the republic was formed,
00:47:35.05\00:47:37.75
but of course, he
was the conquering hero.
00:47:37.79\00:47:39.19
Yes.
00:47:39.22\00:47:41.26
Few months ago now,
Netanyahu spoke there.
00:47:41.29\00:47:44.13
And I think, they still
ruffle feathers after that.
00:47:44.16\00:47:48.76
That was a very inappropriate
speech on many levels.
00:47:48.80\00:47:51.10
Yes.
00:47:51.13\00:47:52.47
But it should have been
seen as highly inappropriate
00:47:52.50\00:47:54.90
for any religious
leader, least of all,
00:47:54.94\00:47:58.21
the Pope of Rome to come
to this Protestant society,
00:47:58.24\00:48:02.64
not a Protestant government,
00:48:02.68\00:48:05.01
but a secular
government and speak.
00:48:05.05\00:48:07.28
But it happened because
the majority leader, Boehner
00:48:07.32\00:48:11.95
and the minority
leader Nancy Pelosi,
00:48:11.99\00:48:14.19
both Roman Catholics.
00:48:14.22\00:48:15.56
Yes. Very comfortable for them.
00:48:15.59\00:48:18.59
I don't know the full
story, it may never be known
00:48:18.63\00:48:20.83
but it made sense to me that
Boehner resigned the day after.
00:48:20.86\00:48:26.57
I think there some
noise behind the scenes
00:48:26.60\00:48:28.50
because they went out
on a big limb to do this.
00:48:28.54\00:48:32.34
So the...
00:48:32.37\00:48:35.84
the affright or the
affront that we should take,
00:48:35.88\00:48:38.11
I think it's just
that this happened, period.
00:48:38.15\00:48:40.08
He didn't have to say
anything so significant
00:48:40.12\00:48:44.02
for it to be
historic and troubling.
00:48:44.05\00:48:47.56
Yeah, there were
several who said,
00:48:47.59\00:48:49.02
okay, this Pope
is too political.
00:48:49.06\00:48:51.46
Well, the fact that you
are here talking to this body
00:48:51.49\00:48:54.20
is a political
statement in and of itself
00:48:54.23\00:48:56.33
regardless of what you
are commentary is or your--
00:48:56.36\00:48:59.67
Some Seventh-day Adventists
of more paranoid sort,
00:48:59.70\00:49:04.24
were saying
unless he recommended
00:49:04.27\00:49:07.04
an immediate Sunday
law with a force of--
00:49:07.08\00:49:10.11
full force of law,
00:49:10.15\00:49:11.48
then it wasn't
anything to remark on.
00:49:11.51\00:49:12.85
Yeah. Well, this--
00:49:12.88\00:49:14.22
They're missing point of
this. Right, precisely. Yeah.
00:49:14.25\00:49:16.42
If he had done so, it still
wouldn't have been enacted.
00:49:16.45\00:49:19.25
At this
particular moment in time,
00:49:19.29\00:49:21.56
they're enough people
who value liberty in general,
00:49:21.59\00:49:24.99
not just the separation
of the church and state.
00:49:25.03\00:49:26.63
That wouldn't fly. Right.
00:49:26.66\00:49:28.80
But the ground has been laid,
00:49:28.83\00:49:31.50
the amnesia is sufficient
that we discussed earlier.
00:49:31.53\00:49:35.00
Well said. Yeah.
When the crisis comes.
00:49:35.04\00:49:37.51
I believe there's
a very good chance
00:49:37.54\00:49:39.11
that it will appear
because it's been noised abroad
00:49:39.14\00:49:41.88
by this Pope in Europe
and even in another fora
00:49:41.91\00:49:45.01
here in the United States,
the institute of the family
00:49:45.05\00:49:47.65
met same time he was here.
00:49:47.68\00:49:49.82
And they have been
calling very strongly
00:49:49.85\00:49:51.85
for the family rest day,
which happens to be Sunday.
00:49:51.89\00:49:55.26
And it's a
pseudo civil day. Yes.
00:49:55.29\00:49:58.36
Saves money like
day light saving,
00:49:58.39\00:50:00.13
it allows the
community to rejuvenate itself,
00:50:00.16\00:50:04.07
to have environmental concerns
and also, not coincidentally,
00:50:04.10\00:50:09.37
go to church and
have spiritual rituals.
00:50:09.40\00:50:11.67
And it seems very
reasonable, you know, we were,
00:50:11.71\00:50:14.74
it's very reasonable.
00:50:14.78\00:50:16.11
Yeah. Yes. It's not
offensive in itself.
00:50:16.14\00:50:18.71
But it clearly is a camel's nose
00:50:18.75\00:50:21.95
into the flap of a bigger tent.
00:50:21.98\00:50:24.99
Very true, very true.
00:50:25.02\00:50:26.65
Changing gears just
a little bit, Lincoln.
00:50:26.69\00:50:28.32
How much do you think
we are willing to surrender
00:50:28.36\00:50:31.76
individual rights and even
our own Protestant identities
00:50:31.79\00:50:35.86
on the alter of world peace?
00:50:35.90\00:50:37.73
I mean, the thing
that's driving world,
00:50:37.77\00:50:39.53
now we got ISIS, we
got this, we got that,
00:50:39.57\00:50:41.20
we got this craziness.
00:50:41.24\00:50:43.04
If somebody can say, I
got the answer to that,
00:50:43.07\00:50:45.51
I think I can pull off
through this in together,
00:50:45.54\00:50:47.38
how much do you think
we will lay down our arms
00:50:47.41\00:50:49.21
and just say, okay,
lead me, I will follow you?
00:50:49.24\00:50:51.51
Well, you said,
lay down your arms.
00:50:51.55\00:50:54.15
The one thing that
Americans are not yet ready
00:50:54.18\00:50:57.72
to lay down, are their arms.
00:50:57.75\00:50:59.09
Yes, yes, very
true. That is true.
00:50:59.12\00:51:02.12
I don't know about that battle
but as afar as civil liberties
00:51:02.16\00:51:05.09
in general, it's
been proven since 9/11.
00:51:05.13\00:51:07.56
We're willing
as in the aggregate
00:51:07.60\00:51:10.70
to give away everything
for security, everything.
00:51:10.73\00:51:13.10
And it's been said,
00:51:13.13\00:51:14.47
you know, people
stood up shortly after 9/11.
00:51:14.50\00:51:16.91
I don't, someone said, "I
don't care if President Bush
00:51:16.94\00:51:19.37
knows what I'm
doing in my bathroom.
00:51:19.41\00:51:21.34
If I can be safe, I'll
give away the freedoms."
00:51:21.38\00:51:24.45
And of course,
there's the statement
00:51:24.48\00:51:25.81
from one of the
founders of the US,
00:51:25.85\00:51:27.95
I think it was
Benjamin Franklin,
00:51:27.98\00:51:29.32
"Those that are
willing to give up
00:51:29.35\00:51:32.29
liberties for security, don't
deserve security or liberty."
00:51:32.32\00:51:37.89
And when I said, I really
meant in a metaphorical state,
00:51:37.93\00:51:42.10
those things that define me,
00:51:42.13\00:51:43.53
those things that I have taken
for granted as mine by right,
00:51:43.57\00:51:46.70
I'm willing to
surrender to you if you say
00:51:46.74\00:51:48.50
you can give me
peace, I will give you this
00:51:48.54\00:51:50.71
because I want peace
more than anything else.
00:51:50.74\00:51:52.34
I know many people including
00:51:52.37\00:51:54.68
at least, one or two
presidential candidates
00:51:54.71\00:51:57.75
at the moment are
touting American exceptionalism.
00:51:57.78\00:52:00.82
And they mean something
00:52:00.85\00:52:02.18
of a sort of a
religious view on that.
00:52:02.22\00:52:04.22
But in reality
America is not exceptional
00:52:04.25\00:52:07.59
on the level we're
talking about here.
00:52:07.62\00:52:09.16
We're just made up
of many human beings
00:52:09.19\00:52:10.86
that behave similarly
under crisis and distressed
00:52:10.89\00:52:14.40
or other human beings
either in other countries
00:52:14.43\00:52:16.93
or at other times.
00:52:16.97\00:52:18.37
And people have shown
an incredible predilection
00:52:18.40\00:52:21.74
to giving way to a
strong man who offers security
00:52:21.77\00:52:25.34
even as he takes away
00:52:25.37\00:52:27.08
thing that they
might otherwise cherish.
00:52:27.11\00:52:28.54
Very true.
00:52:28.58\00:52:29.91
And the US is not an innotimmune
00:52:29.94\00:52:31.55
wherein in a rush
to give away things
00:52:31.58\00:52:34.32
or to close their
eyes and these happen.
00:52:34.35\00:52:39.12
You know, there's good evidence
to think every phone call,
00:52:39.15\00:52:42.89
every communication,
every electronic transaction
00:52:42.92\00:52:46.80
you has been monolized
or studied to determine
00:52:46.83\00:52:50.33
whether you are a suitable
person to deliver this country.
00:52:50.37\00:52:53.77
And that you went exactly
where I was hoping you would.
00:52:53.80\00:52:56.71
Boy, this hour has gone so fast.
00:52:56.74\00:52:58.54
I want go put up now
some contact information.
00:52:58.57\00:53:00.48
Should you like to make contact
00:53:00.51\00:53:01.84
with Liberty
Magazine, with Lincoln Steed,
00:53:01.88\00:53:05.45
here's the information
that you're gonna need.
00:53:05.48\00:53:07.05
If you'd like to know
more about this ministry,
00:53:09.02\00:53:11.29
then you can write
to Liberty Magazine
00:53:11.32\00:53:13.89
12501, Old Columbia Pike,
Silver Spring, Maryland 20904.
00:53:13.92\00:53:20.50
That's Liberty Magazine
12501, Old Columbia Pike,
00:53:20.53\00:53:25.23
Silver Spring, Maryland 20904.
00:53:25.27\00:53:28.90
You can call (301) 680-6690.
00:53:28.94\00:53:33.27
That's (301) 680-6690.
00:53:33.31\00:53:37.45
You can also
visit them on the web
00:53:37.48\00:53:39.45
at libertymagazine.org.
00:53:39.48\00:53:41.78
That's libertymagazine.org.
00:53:41.82\00:53:45.55
Contact them today.
They'd love to hear from you.
00:53:45.59\00:53:48.42