Participants: Brian Hamilton (Host), C. A. Murray (Host), Katie Helmuth, Pr. Ken Helmuth
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY015067A
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00:02 I want to spend my life
00:08 Mending broken people 00:13 I want to spend my life 00:19 Removing pain 00:24 Lord, let my words 00:30 Heal a heart that hurts 00:35 I want to spend my life 00:40 Mending broken people 00:46 I want to spend my life 00:51 Mending broken people 01:07 Hello, and welcome to 3ABN today. 01:10 My name is C.A. Murray and allow me 01:12 once again to thank you for sharing 01:14 just a little of your no doubt busy day with us. 01:17 To again thank you for your love, your prayers, 01:19 your support of this ministry. 01:22 We've got an exciting show. 01:23 I'm in the company of CFO Brian Hamilton. 01:26 Brian, good to have you here. 01:27 Good to be here again. 01:29 CFO, money guy, 01:31 financial director, all of the above. 01:34 Always good to have you and you can come out 01:36 away from the filthy lucre. 01:38 Yeah, take my green hat and shade off 01:41 and I actually be here with the rest of you. 01:44 Yeah. I enjoyed too. 01:45 It's a nice change. Good to have you here. 01:48 Got a very interesting show for you today 01:50 and in fact Brian perhaps knows a little bit more 01:53 about this than even I 01:54 but the title what we are giving the show 01:57 our title would be Amish to Adventism 02:00 or Amish to Adventist 02:01 and we are gonna meet two people 02:03 that we only know to show rather but I only know to show 02:05 but sometimes you meet people 02:07 and you kind of like them right off, 02:09 something about them just kind of appeals to you. 02:11 So we want to introduce you 02:13 to Pastor Kenneth and wife Katie Helmut. 02:18 Helmuth, did I get that right? Yeah. 02:19 Helmuth. The "th" sound in English. 02:20 All right, we all know "th" in English 02:23 in German it will be Helmuth. 02:24 Yeah. Okay, very good. 02:26 Amish Adventist that's what we are talking about 02:30 and they have got a great testimony. 02:33 This is an interesting saga 02:35 that you want to sort of give ear to, Brian, 02:37 because it's a great journey and a great story. 02:39 Yes, it is. Yes, it is. 02:42 We were at ASI here not too long ago 02:46 and I was at the booth and this couple came by 02:52 and they looked should I say a bit Amish. 02:57 Is that right? Yeah. 02:59 Okay, and that's-- not usually the setting 03:03 that you see Amish people and, you know, at ASI. 03:08 Now I will add, I personally and I think society 03:13 in general have great respect 03:17 for our Amish brothers and sisters. 03:19 Their work ethic, their spirituality, 03:25 their family values, society looks very positively, 03:31 now whether they want that lifestyle for themselves 03:34 or not maybe totally different. 03:36 Yeah. Yeah. 03:37 And so when I saw you folk coming up to the booth, 03:41 you know, and I go, oh, this is interesting. 03:44 I like to get to know this couple, 03:46 see what their story is, you know. 03:48 And so that's kind of how we got acquainted 03:51 and that was the background to it. 03:52 And we founded to be a very interesting story, 03:55 very, very, very, fantastic story 03:58 and you will come to know them and come to love them. 04:01 God has brought them through many experiences, 04:04 really quite a long way 04:06 and it has been a wonderful journey 04:08 and they are here today. 04:09 And the punch line is that that he is pastoring now 04:13 in the Adventist church 04:14 and we are certainly thankful for that. 04:15 Before we unpack the story 04:17 I think we'll go right to our music 04:18 then come back and spend some time 04:21 with Kenneth and Katie. 04:23 Our music today comes to us from Jamie Jorge, 04:26 great friend of this ministry, 04:27 long time friend of this ministry 04:29 and a great person, great violinist. 04:31 He is gonna be playing "It Is No Secret." 08:45 And we are back. Well, done, Jamie Jorge. 08:48 It is no secret what God can do. 08:51 Brian Hamilton, C.A. Murray here and Katie 08:53 and Pastor Kenneth Helmuth are with us. 08:59 We need to get right into interesting story 09:02 and we got to ask you, give me some sense on flavor 09:06 of what it was like growing up in your home as a young, 09:10 Amish young man. 09:11 And where are you from originally? 09:13 Okay, I was born in the state of Illinois 09:16 a kind of south central, 09:18 south of Champaign Urbana about 35 miles 09:20 there is a fairly large Amish community there 09:23 and I was born in '64, 09:25 so 51 years ago into Amish family. 09:28 I had six brothers and six sisters 09:31 and I guess I don't want to-- 09:35 I want to make this clear at the beginning, 09:36 I don't want to shed a bad light on anyone 09:39 just for the purpose of bad nausing anyone. 09:43 There is a lot of good in my background 09:45 as far as the Amish culture, the Amish lifestyle 09:48 that there are certain things that are not so good 09:51 and our home is fairly troubled home in growing up, 09:55 dysfunctional home in that there was a lot of verbal 10:00 and some physical abuse 10:02 but overall we still had a lot of happy times, 10:06 a lot of good memories. 10:07 And, you know, growing up 10:10 without electricity, without phones 10:12 using horse and buggy all that was just, 10:14 you know, you are born into this, you grow up 10:16 and you don't expect anything else. 10:18 In fact we considered our Amish lifestyle, 10:22 the Amish church to sort of be God's elite, 10:25 God's special people and the other people out there 10:29 the regular people they were-- 10:31 some of them where Christians, some of them are okay 10:33 but they are worldly Christians 10:36 because of the modernism that they have. 10:39 And so it was, it was a challenging lifestyle 10:42 as far as to make ends meet you have to work very hard 10:46 with not having all the conveniences. 10:49 So I believe some of the work ethic 10:51 maybe from our German roots and some of it is necessity. 10:55 Great. Yeah. 10:57 If you don't have all the conveniences 10:58 you have to work harder 11:00 and that also helps maintain the community orientation 11:04 in the Amish culture. 11:06 You have a lot more of the community mindset 11:09 than you will find in mainstream America 11:11 which I believe if you go back far enough in America 11:14 you will find that there too. 11:15 You know, people getting together to help with, 11:17 you know, raising a barn, 11:18 you know, bringing into crops things like that. 11:20 So in the Amish culture 11:23 there is a lot of that by necessity 11:25 and some of that is being lost to some degree 11:27 just because in the Amish world there is a lot of advances, 11:31 you know, modernism progressive, 11:34 you know, things coming into help make it easier 11:36 to make a living the times that we are living. 11:38 So, you know, as far as growing up Amish church 11:43 again there is probably quite different 11:45 than what most people experience. 11:47 In the Amish church experience you have church service-- 11:51 this is pretty universal. 11:52 Church services every two weeks instead of every Sunday. 11:56 And some Amish communities will have 11:59 what we call the in between Sunday 12:00 we'll have a Sunday school 12:03 but many Amish communities don't allow that. 12:05 They believe it's to over read, 12:07 too much studies of Bible can be harmful 12:09 because it has been proven-- 12:11 I'm speaking from an Amish perspective 12:13 it's been proven that a lot of people 12:16 when they really study the Bible 12:18 and studied intensely will end up leaving their mission. 12:22 And so the equation in the Amish mindset 12:25 becomes anything that takes away 12:28 from being Amish is dangerous even if it's the Bible. 12:30 Even it is too much Bible. 12:31 Yeah. Wow. 12:33 So in our communities that we grew up in was, 12:35 there was a perception sometimes voice, 12:39 sometimes just its there that too much prayer, 12:43 too much Bible study can be harmful. 12:45 So study the Bible but carefully 12:47 so you don't get deviated. 12:49 So that's an interesting wrinkle 12:50 that I had not heard before. 12:52 So the goal is not necessarily to develop 12:54 a working relation with Christ, it's to stay Amish. 12:58 That is the primary goal. Yeah. 12:59 I would have to say, yes, good question. 13:01 It would be the primary goal 13:04 because they would also say it's important 13:07 to have a relationship with the Lord 13:09 and there is a, there is a reluctance 13:13 or hesitation to be too verbal or too personal 13:16 about your relationship, that's your private thing. 13:19 You know, you go to church and externally 13:21 you are a good church member. 13:23 You, you know, pay your dews 13:25 and you live your life according to the Amish standard 13:28 but it is very much about preserving the Amish heritage 13:32 that is, that is true. 13:33 And there are many Amish who do know the Lord 13:36 and have a saving knowledge of Jesus. 13:38 A personal relationship that sadly for most 13:43 it is a Jesus plus Amish gospel 13:46 and we now believe it is Jesus only. 13:49 Yeah. Okay. 13:50 So, you know, in growing up 13:53 even though we went to church every two weeks 13:56 and we had in our home, 13:58 we had a lot of good books and I love to read. 14:02 In fact, as a young boy I often received a spankings 14:08 for not getting my chores done on time 14:10 because I'm off somewhere reading a book, 14:12 even sometimes hiding behind the furniture up and the barn, 14:16 you know, somewhere with a book and I'm reading. 14:19 And so I love to read and I bless God for that 14:22 because I believe the whole era of reading books 14:28 and just dividing everything get hold of it. 14:29 It can't be bad but in our home we had a lot of good books 14:31 including the Arthur Maxwell Bible story books. 14:35 I read those through a number of times. 14:38 If I could interject you-- Sure. 14:39 Katie, let's ask the same question of you, 14:43 as a girl growing up, what was it like as little girl 14:46 growing up in Amish home? 14:48 What was your family like? 14:50 Tell us a little bit of dynamics of your home. 14:54 I was born in Indiana in a family of 14. 15:02 Oh, 14, okay. 15:04 Yeah, 10 brothers and 3 sisters. 15:07 Okay. 15:08 And-- yeah, we moved to Missouri then 15:12 when I was five then to I went when I was 12. 15:18 You know, through that time I didn't really think a lot, 15:21 you know, about noticed we were being raised 15:26 that was just the way it is. 15:28 Yeah. So normal life to you. 15:30 Yeah. Okay. 15:32 But, you know, once you get up there 15:33 a little bit older and you wonder, 15:36 you know, what is this all about 15:39 and then you come to the realization, 15:43 you know, that you want to be right with the Lord 15:48 and, you know, what is right 15:50 or how do you know what is right. 15:54 Yeah. Yeah. 15:55 But was your family a happy family, 15:57 hardworking, just that? 15:58 Yeah, yeah, we had, we had, I mean, we had childs too 16:04 but, you know, I mean, we were happy family so then. 16:08 Yeah. Yeah. 16:09 The idea that there could be dysfunction in such a type, 16:13 you know, that people look on from the outside 16:16 it's kind of, it's kind of shocking. 16:19 And I'm getting a picture because those of us 16:22 who are not Amish always of the mindset, 16:26 you know, they are just, they are doing this Amish thing 16:31 but they really want to be like us 16:33 and you are saying for the true believer 16:35 that's not true at all. 16:37 They want to be what they are and they are not looking at us 16:39 with any kind of jaundice look like, 16:41 I want to be like them. 16:42 They want to be what they are and do what they are doing. 16:43 Right, I would say that is very true 16:46 for the vast majority. 16:47 There may be in their-- there are some individuals 16:50 who may be looking over fence as it were 16:52 but for the most part and for myself I had no desire. 16:55 I had not the slightest inkling of a desire until I was 37 17:00 to ever leave the Amish. 17:01 I just over secured there, I was safe having gone through 17:04 a little bit of trouble childhood, 17:07 you know, entered to trade a rebellion 17:09 and gotten into drugs and alcohol as an Amish youth 17:13 and then the Lord delivering me from that 17:15 giving me a clear salvation experience 17:17 I was very satisfied there. 17:19 And, you know, I believed that since the Lord met me there 17:23 and delivered me there that I could not imagine 17:26 or fathom that there is another step 17:28 in the process of light 17:30 that He would take me to apart from Amish. 17:33 Just a real quick short story to emphasis this point 17:37 how for most Amish these salvation 17:41 it begins with Jesus and it is Jesus 17:43 but if you are born Amish 17:45 you must remain Amish or you will lose that. 17:49 The mindset is that if you are not born Amish, 17:52 for example either one of you having not been born 17:56 into an Amish culture or family 17:58 if you are a Christian you will be fully accepted. 18:00 It's not that the Amish believe 18:02 that they are the only Christians 18:04 or that you have to be Amish to make it to heaven. 18:07 It's just that if you are born there 18:08 you must stay there 18:10 and they primarily would use Colossians 2, 18:13 "As you have received the Lord Jesus, 18:16 so walk in Him rooted and grounded 18:17 and build up in the faith." 18:19 And in the German it sounds slightly different 18:21 it's the same thought but it sounds slightly different. 18:23 Almost sounds like, wherever you are 18:25 when you accept Jesus stay there. 18:27 Stay there. Yeah. 18:28 So that's a little bit of a misinterpretation there. 18:32 So and when you are baptized into the Amish church 18:35 you are usually baptized on your knees 18:38 in the church building which is the homes, 18:40 they have church services in their homes. 18:42 And it's a set of vows and commitments 18:45 and within those vows that you make 18:48 you commit to maintaining the standard of this church, 18:51 this being God's true church on threat of death or life 18:56 whatever it may cost you 18:57 will remain faithful to this church. 18:59 So to them it becomes a matter of breaking vows. 19:02 And the short story I wanted to share 19:03 is as a young Amish man after I had been married 19:07 and some of us men would gather on a Friday evening 19:10 and sing, practice singing the hymns 19:12 that the Amish sing in church because there are German hymn, 19:15 there are German hymns and they are put 19:17 to very slow sort of a chant tune it. 19:20 It takes 22 minutes to sing the main song that is sung 19:24 in every Amish church. 19:26 Service takes 22 minutes 19:28 and it's four stanzas seven lines each. 19:31 It takes 22 minutes approximately. 19:33 Some communities are little more 19:34 some little less but that's-- 19:35 it's a very slow singsong chant. 19:38 And a lot of these songs are like that 19:40 and so since there is no written music 19:43 it's all by memory. 19:44 And so we would gather and just practice these 19:46 so that the Sunday service we can sing these songs. 19:50 Our bishop one Sunday at service 19:53 said he knows we are doing this 19:54 and many people are just-- he said it's fine 19:56 but he said make sure 19:57 that you keep this practice singing 20:00 we called it as a practice singing. 20:02 He said, don't start doing prayer and Bible study. 20:06 And of course I'm a young man and I respect-- 20:09 there is a lot of teaching on respect and obedience 20:11 and submission in the Amish church. 20:14 Now the Amish lifestyle, for authority, 20:16 for sonority and so I value their opinions. 20:19 He is preaching he says, there was a group of young men 20:23 who gathered together to practice the church hymns 20:26 and someone made the suggestion why don't we pray first 20:28 and so they prayed 20:30 and next thing they are all praying 20:32 before they sing and then someone suggest 20:34 why don't we also read a chapter from the Bible. 20:37 And then they do that 20:39 they start discussing the chapter 20:40 and he said it turns into a Bible study. 20:43 And in his closing warning he makes a statement, 20:46 he says, today not one of those brothers 20:51 are in the Amish church, they have all left. 20:54 You know, and the equation in the Amish mind 20:56 for the most part is that 20:58 that there was something wrong with that. 21:01 Because we are secure in the Amish setting 21:03 why would we want to leave anything 21:05 that takes us away to a loss condition 21:08 would have to bad. 21:09 So let's not do a prayer meeting, Bible study. 21:11 In fact, in most churches you would excommunicated 21:14 or at least disappoint 21:16 if you start something like that. 21:17 Wow. 21:19 So this gives a whole new understanding 21:22 on how the Amish view themselves and the wider world. 21:25 They are quite content being Amish. 21:28 How then because it seems like the leap from being Amish 21:33 to Adventism is such a great leap 21:35 but you had and I use to term brushes with Adventism 21:38 and Adventist doctrine all along. 21:40 Walk us through that experience. 21:42 Okay, yeah, and it's about a 25 year encounter 21:47 if you will or series of encounters 21:48 and it overlapped some of the other details 21:51 I might be sharing but I will try to go through that 21:54 and then if we need to come back 21:55 and pick up some of the things. 21:57 So as a young boy 21:58 reading through the Bible study books 22:00 I noticed the Sabbath in there and that was my first 22:02 if you will encounter or brush with Adventism 22:05 and again didn't know these books 22:07 were written by Adventist. 22:08 So I ask my mother one day and said, 22:10 why do we go to church on Sunday? 22:12 Yeah, let me stop into, I kind of ask you. 22:14 How do those books get in your home? 22:16 A lot of Amish shelf there I'm not sure at that age. 22:19 I know when I got married we decided to get these books 22:23 including the Bible Story or the Bed Time story books 22:26 and my Jesus friends books because we had a young family 22:29 and I appreciated these books. 22:32 Most Amish expect 22:33 everything in these books the Sabbath 22:36 and the issue of Jacob 22:37 and how that all went with the cheating 22:39 the birthright thing, calling him a cheater 22:42 the Amish reject that as a whole 22:43 that he was not a cheater that was God's will. 22:47 But most of the Amish love those books. 22:49 It brings the Bible into a story form 22:50 that young children who grasp which-- yeah. 22:53 So then she gave me, my mother gave me the usual answer 22:57 Jesus rose on the first day of the week 22:59 and also the other accompanies God has often expressed 23:03 it doesn't really matter which day 23:04 as long as to worship God one day 23:06 and Sunday is the day that is designated. 23:08 The Sabbath is the Old Testament, 23:09 Sunday is the New Testament, the Lord's day. 23:12 And since the Sabbath or Sunday is called the Lord's day 23:16 by most Protestants denominations people assume 23:19 that the Lord's day in Revelation 23:21 when John was in the spirit on the Lord's day is Sunday. 23:24 So then that was my first brush if you will was Adventism, 23:28 not really Adventism may be just the Sabbath 23:30 and then I also noticed in the Bible story books 23:32 that Satan and the wicked are devoured and burned up 23:35 and I knew from the Bible even as a preteen 23:38 that it does speak of that being devoured, destroyed, 23:42 you know, like chaff on threshing floor 23:43 and yet I looked at the verses forever and ever 23:46 and the Amish teaching is very clear, 23:48 it's an eternal tournament. 23:49 You know, lot of hell fire 23:51 and brimstone messages as a young boy. 23:52 In fact, as I entered my rebellious teen years 23:55 where I experimented with drugs and alcohol, 23:59 I sort of reacting to some of the troubles at home 24:03 I all the way through those years 24:05 I kept this thing at the back of mind, 24:06 I want to get right before it's too late 24:09 because I don't want to spend eternity 24:11 in a burning home. 24:12 And I viewed my father in heaven 24:15 through the lens of an Amish young boy 24:17 that had a very strict father and I saw him as a God 24:20 with a big whip and he will give me 24:21 great blessings if I obey but great punishment if I don't 24:25 and I just assured its fair, its equal. 24:26 If you are gonna live eternally 24:28 then you should be tormented eternally if, you know, 24:30 right or wrong. 24:31 And that's the general Amish mindset. 24:32 So the second, second most profound example 24:36 of coming up to this Sabbath truth 24:39 was after I was married and I don't know 24:42 if I'm assuming you are familiar with the book 24:45 "National Sunday Law" by Jan Marcussen 24:47 I was probably 22 or 23 living in the state of Illinois 24:51 again my father moved out from Iowa. 24:53 In fact, that's where my wife, my wife now 24:55 and I had first-- the families met each other. 24:58 I didn't marry her back then but she is my wife now 25:02 after my first wife passed away. 25:04 So anyway in Iowa I met my wife from Illinois 25:08 my first wife we married lived there 25:10 a few years move back to Illinois 25:12 and this mailing was done 25:14 I'm assuming by the local Adventist church. 25:17 This book comes to my house the National Sunday Law 25:20 and by this time some of my Amish cousins 25:24 and myself are very interested in Bible prophecy 25:27 and we conclude that the beast in Revelation 13 25:30 and Revelation 17 is the Roman Catholic Church. 25:33 But and we had this feeling that 25:34 America somehow plays a major role 25:36 but we didn't know how to put the fuses together. 25:38 And we kept looking at the seven day week prophecy 25:39 and completely missed the 2,300 day prophecy. 25:43 And in all of this 25:45 I'm concluding the Catholic Church 25:47 is the beast power and then I read this book 25:50 and it's like all the pieces start coming together 25:52 about the mark of the beast and these things 25:54 and so I approached someone I don't remember who right now 25:58 but and I was again like just the hush down like 26:02 this is okay, this is their teaching, 26:04 this is not where we are at 26:05 and the teaching even though I was a rebel as a young person 26:09 and I marvel now that I didn't resist this 26:11 but the teaching was so strong that you respect authority 26:15 and sonority that I just accepted. 26:17 Okay, this book if profound truth 26:19 but it's not for me, it's not for us 26:21 somehow and I wrestled with that. 26:23 I was troubled by this is the truth. 26:25 I set the book aside and just 26:28 and very interesting experience time is getting away from here. 26:33 A neighbour came across said, 26:34 did you get that book National Sunday Law? 26:37 I said, yeah, and I was about to say 26:38 I was so blessed it's tremendous 26:40 and then she said I did too. 26:41 She said I was so troubled by it 26:43 and she said I heard voices and presence 26:45 and I threw it away and everything cleared up. 26:47 And I thought wow, is there something wrong with me? 26:49 That I think it's a truth and I'm blessed 26:51 and then she is, almost like cursed. 26:54 I was the second one, this third time 26:56 after I left the Amish 26:58 and was pastoring a Sunday church 27:00 a number of magazines started arriving at our home. 27:03 People were subscribed to a magazine for us 27:05 like the Spotlight, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses, 27:08 The Watchtower, Signs of the Times, 27:11 Marvin Moore many magazines 27:14 and in that we got more books again. 27:16 And I had the Desire of Ages, 27:18 Steps to Christ various materials 27:19 from the Spirit of Prophecy in my home, 27:21 I love these books. 27:22 So here comes this book again 27:25 National Sunday Law after 20 years 27:26 it comes again to my home. 27:28 And so I discussed this again with some brothers 27:31 and this question just kept coming up in my mind 27:34 and probably the most profound one then was, 27:39 I received the book Ten Commandments Twice Removed 27:41 by Danny Shelton and Shelley Quinn 27:43 and this is just shortly before we moved to New Zealand in 2009 27:49 and I read this book and I just struggled. 27:51 I was pastoring this church, I had several businesses, 27:54 it was not an Amish church 27:56 but this time we left the Amish. 27:58 I just struggled with this book because there is so much truth 28:00 I could not contradict and I did find one little thing 28:05 that I hung my hat on as it were. 28:08 I thought they didn't quote the entire verse. 28:10 In Isaiah 66, where the prophet writes that, 28:13 as I live, saith the Lord God, you know, 28:14 and every New Moon and every Sabbath 28:16 or every Sabbath and every New Moon 28:17 that all flesh will come. 28:19 They left out the part about every New Moon, 28:20 they just had the little dot's. 28:22 You know, there is more to the verse 28:23 but they didn't put it on, I said, they know 28:24 that there is no sun 28:26 and no moon in the New Jerusalem 28:27 and so this confounds the argument 28:29 it's not sound. 28:30 I was grasping like a drowning man. 28:32 Yeah. 28:33 But the interesting thing 28:35 I'll try to go through this real quickly. 28:37 I had several businesses, we had rental properties, 28:40 foster children, 28:41 I was counseling youth in Detroit. 28:43 We are doing a lot of things 28:44 but again I'm now a self supporting pastor 28:47 so I have a lot of people working for me. 28:49 We are in Detroit building 28:50 a huge storage building for the Detroit News. 28:53 And so we are staying in a motel 28:54 because it's four hours from home. 28:56 So one of my sons or one of the employees 28:57 there he is flipping through TV channels 28:59 at the motel like just want to watch something 29:02 for an hour or two before we go to bed. 29:04 And I say, hey, go back to the other channel 29:06 there is a guy preaching there. 29:07 I didn't know who it was and I had watched him 29:10 he swaggered in number of TV evangelism. 29:12 I wasn't too impressed 29:13 but I'm a pastor so I'm interested 29:14 in what is this guy have to say. 29:16 You know, TV evangelist 29:17 they got to be secondary, you know. 29:19 So we flip back and we want-- Secondary. 29:25 And I didn't know who he was, he is Doug Batchelor 29:27 I'm like wow, this man has really got the truth. 29:30 He is on target on everything 29:33 and the reason this is significant, 29:35 I see God establishing a platform of credibility 29:39 for the Adventist understanding of the Bible in my life 29:42 because I pondered this, boy, that was good. 29:44 Now you didn't know Doug was an Seventh-day Adventist? 29:47 No, because I said, I said, wonder 29:48 if what church he goes to. 29:49 And also I want to question, you get all these brushes, 29:52 you got Desire of Ages, you got the Maxwell books, 29:53 you got-- did you had not connected 29:55 that Doug these are all Adventism. 29:57 No I didn't know who EG White was. 29:59 I was a type of person I would pick up a book 30:01 and I would look at the title I would read it 30:03 and I decided if it's good. 30:04 I didn't look at the author, the forward, the introduction. 30:06 I just read the book. 30:07 So anyhow the interesting thing is we watch Doug 30:10 I'm so impressed like, wow, this man is good. 30:12 He is like-- I could listen to this, man, 30:15 and I'm a pastor too. 30:16 So a couple of weeks later coming home from work 30:18 there is a DVD on my desk 30:20 and I say, where does this come from? 30:22 I picked up like, 30:23 there is no tag no sticker on it 30:25 and it said the Final Events by Doug Batchelor. 30:28 I said, I watched this guy on TV a few weeks ago. 30:30 I said, he is pretty good, I'm gonna watch this DVD. 30:33 I didn't know, he was Seventh-day Adventist. 30:35 I had since now watched the Final Events again 30:39 and then amazed that there is all this teaching 30:42 about the Sabbath on there I never noticed that. 30:45 And again I think I wasn't rating 30:46 God just kind of did this for me 30:49 and but I watched the DVD 30:51 and because I'm interested in Final Events 30:53 and I have concluded the Catholic Church 30:55 is the beast power various things 30:57 and I troubled about the Sabbath 30:59 I'm really opened to these kind of things 31:01 probably more than in my Amish and now non-Amish. 31:04 It was a small group of churches, 31:05 65 churches, 15,000 people 31:07 very strong mission outreach, very conservative 31:10 but they are not Amish. 31:11 People think they are Amish or Mennonite they are not, 31:12 they are from mainstream America. 31:14 There are some Amish there but they are very conservative 31:16 they would not approve of, 31:19 they don't approve where we are at now but-- 31:20 so that's my setting, that's my background now. 31:23 But so I'm open to this and so I watched this DVD 31:27 and I'm thinking, wow. 31:28 He also says the devil will be burned up. 31:30 It says, he is mistaken there 31:31 but so I shared it with my church 31:33 and said let's as a church Sunday afternoon 31:34 we are gonna watch the DVD it's very good. 31:36 It's about end times events 31:37 and I believe it's the truth except 31:39 I want to give you a few, you know, qualifiers here, 31:41 don't follow this and this because he is off there. 31:44 We watched it or to fast forward a year later 31:48 we are in the process of moving to New Zealand 31:50 selling our business, our rental properties, 31:52 closing the church down because most of the church 31:54 is gonna follow us to New Zealand. 31:55 We are gonna establish a church, 31:57 reach out as a Polynesian natives there as Maori 32:00 on the south island outside of Christ church 32:03 and we opened business there 32:05 and just continue our church experience 32:07 but as a witness to the Maori 32:09 and there is many details, miracles, crashing my plane 32:12 and other things there that happened that 32:14 instrumental and bringing to this place. 32:15 I crashed a small plane 32:17 and, yeah, I can't go into those details 32:19 but what happened is we get to New Zealand 32:20 we still haven't connected 32:22 that Doug Batchelor is an Adventist 32:23 and we watched the DVD probably a dozen times 32:25 then we noticed the Sabbath. 32:27 So my friend from New Zealand is helping us coordinate 32:31 for my married son needing a rental property 32:34 twice the rental arrangement falls through. 32:36 So the third time he says I've got something. 32:38 He said there is a neighbor 32:39 that's got a small shipping container 32:40 he said they are Seventh-day Adventist 32:42 but they are nice people. 32:43 The but in there is, it was little humorous. 32:46 So I thought okay. 32:49 So we get there in New Zealand 32:51 and interesting now a couple months 32:53 after there my son and his wife have to move 32:55 and their second landlord is Seventh-day Adventist. 32:58 So God keeps like-- 33:00 and so we walk into this shipping container 33:04 and I noticed the TV up on the wall 33:06 with little table there 33:07 and there is a stack of VHS tapes and things there. 33:10 So, you know, I'm the father and I'm-- 33:11 You know my son is 22 he is married 33:13 he has a wife and a baby. 33:15 And they are living in a shipping container? 33:17 Yeah, it's very nice. 33:18 It's fixed for living quarters like a temporary, 33:20 you know, transitional thing. 33:22 So I decided I got to see what's here 33:24 because probably he is gonna watch these 33:26 just out of curiosity. 33:27 I want to make sure it's some that won't take him, 33:28 you know, off somewhere. 33:30 So I walk over there and I life the first VHS tapes 33:32 is like Doug Batchelor. 33:34 The next one Doug Batchelor. 33:35 Every single one is Doug Batchelor 33:37 and I just kind of like, 33:38 he must be a Seventh-day Adventist. 33:40 I was so disappointed. 33:41 How can a man who can preach like that 33:43 be a Seventh-day Adventist? 33:46 I accused them, I thought they are cult, 33:48 they are legalistic, they are Old Testament 33:50 because never had a dialogue 33:51 until with the Seventh-day Adventist 33:53 until a few weeks before we move 33:54 to New Zealand in 2009 and that Seventh-day Adventist 34:00 who is not as nervous by blood as he probably should have been 34:03 and I kind of backed him to a corner on number of things 34:05 and felt very triumphant that see 34:07 these guys don't know their Bible 34:09 and they are legalist living in the Old Testament, 34:12 Jesus is my Sabbath et cetera. 34:14 Now I have a problem. 34:15 A man I highly respect and loveless 34:17 until he is Seventh-day Adventist. 34:19 And so I decided to tell my son don't watch these. 34:23 I thought, you know, if I tell him that 34:24 he is gonna watch them for sheer curiosity. 34:27 So I thought, I just leave I will just pray. 34:28 So I go to, where we are staying out, 34:30 I'm unpacking my boxes about a week later, 34:32 we took 17 banana boxes of books 34:34 and some personal items otherwise we sold everything. 34:37 We start in New Zealand my phone rings. 34:39 He is my son, he said, hey, dad, 34:41 I have been watching these tapes and I'm like-- 34:44 I just kind of interrupt him like, 34:46 yeah, they are legalist, they don't understand 34:48 the Bible and grace and he interrupts me again. 34:50 He says, dad, he said, don't judge them 34:53 until you listen to him which was sound advice. 34:56 He said, could we bring them over. 34:57 I thought well, yeah, it will be safer to watch them 34:59 in our living room then by himself. 35:01 Yeah. 35:02 I'm the veteran, I'm the pastor, 35:03 I'm, you know, stable. 35:05 And so they bring them over 35:06 and I thought I'm gonna ready to do battle. 35:08 I have my Bible on my knee, we will stop this thing 35:10 if I need to contradict something 35:12 but I was, I kind of had a bad feeling like 35:14 this is Doug Batchelor. 35:17 And I thought, you know, well, watch it. 35:21 Oh, and before this happening, 35:22 I'm sorry, before this happening 35:23 before the phone call 35:25 just that day I was unpacking stuff. 35:26 I turned to my wife and I said 35:28 I thought we had thrown away the National Sunday Law 35:30 and the Ten Commandments Twice Removed. 35:32 It caused so much turmoil there was a question 35:33 it wasn't settled but here I'm them in my books. 35:36 I said, you know, what I'm gonna do 35:38 we don't have any business here as far as it's not established, 35:41 yet the church is not established, 35:43 yet we are waiting on the visa because of my hand issues. 35:45 I have a missing finger, I had an accident. 35:47 The government lock things down 35:49 and I said, you know, what I'm gonna do, 35:51 I'm gonna take these two books and I'm gonna read them 35:53 paragraph by paragraph and every reference 35:55 to any Bible verse or truth I'm gonna research 35:57 everything pertained to that 35:58 and I'm gonna get to the bottom 36:00 of this question for once and for all. 36:01 That's a dangerous thing you are doing. 36:03 I'm on the bottom side of the earth 36:05 and it doesn't matter what anybody is saying 36:07 and we are here alone I mean, just a small group 36:10 and I knew that I could come out 36:11 on the right side of issue, I just needed some time. 36:13 Now I've got time. 36:14 I'm not running a business, I'm not fostering children, 36:16 I'm not pastoring to church per say 36:18 we are just getting established. 36:20 I'm gonna, you know, develop this conviction and settle it. 36:24 So when I said that is when this phone call came. 36:27 So here we are and I'm just like, 36:30 I'm on a losing side of a battle here. 36:33 We watched the DVDs or the VHS tapes 36:35 and I got privately satisfied that is the truth 36:39 and we just wept our way through the next, 36:41 the next weeks and even month. 36:43 I studied and then just laid aside all the tapes. 36:46 I said, I need to see this for myself 36:47 not just take his for it 36:49 and though he was quoting the Bible 36:50 and all these things and it took us a long time 36:53 to integrated into our life being willing for the-- 36:57 Having left the Amish in 2001 37:01 there was an extreme amount of shunning 37:03 and I knew that leaving the-- 37:05 We call them charity churches that setting. 37:07 There won't be the same level of shunning 37:09 but still a definite cutting off, still a barrier. 37:13 And it was a strange as from-- 37:15 I've about 4000 living relatives 37:17 from grandparents downward from my first wife, 37:20 my second wife here and my own family. 37:22 There is about 4,000 people 37:24 just from my grandparents downward. 37:27 It's a huge family and I knew we kind of be 37:29 cut off friends but we made the decision 37:32 then to embrace these truths 37:34 and somehow ask God to help us work it out 37:36 to where we felt that we are gonna be all alone again 37:39 and of course there is 37:40 17 or 18 million Adventist brothers and sisters. 37:43 Were you aware of the size of the Adventist church 37:44 at that point of time? 37:46 So you were just kind of taking a leap out there. 37:48 Define shunning for us. 37:50 Okay, in the Amish culture 37:52 just real simply the shunning in excommunication is, 37:58 it can be for things that are clearly assumed 38:00 from the Bible like say, drunkenness or fornication 38:03 or, you know, those kind of things 38:05 but they will even use the shunning 38:07 even if it is just a departure from the lifestyle 38:10 which was our case. 38:11 And the effect of the shunning 38:13 is supposed to produce repentance and sorrow 38:15 and because you are cut off 38:17 and separated it will make you want to come back. 38:20 It's kind of like the thread of a whip will bring you back. 38:24 They would not eat together at the same table 38:27 and there is different levels of shunning 38:29 but usually you would not eat sitting at the same table, 38:31 sometimes not even out of the same dishes. 38:33 Like if you have a bowl of potatoes 38:35 you would have a second bowl for the shun members 38:37 and they sit at a separate table. 38:39 We had a sister involved 38:40 who wanted us to stay at her place, 38:41 she couldn't invite us but we kind of invited ourself, 38:43 we knew they wanted us there. 38:45 They put two tables set up two tables 38:47 they put them an inch and half apart 38:49 so they are not violating the shunning. 38:51 They are not-- we are not at the same table 38:52 we are sitting at this one table 38:54 they are sitting at the other 38:55 and it's an inch and half apart. 38:57 We also would never travel like in the same vehicle together. 39:00 We wouldn't do any business 39:02 like you couldn't sell me you horse, 39:03 I couldn't buy a piece of furniture, 39:05 you know, that kind of level of shunning. 39:07 Visiting usually is okay as long as it centers around 39:11 physical, materialistic things but not spiritual things, 39:14 you know, discussed. 39:15 So when you have family 39:18 gets together how does that work? 39:20 Very good question. 39:22 They are not allowed to invite us 39:23 to any gathering at all. 39:25 Now funerals we are allowed 39:26 to show up and be at a funeral 39:28 but they will set us apart in separate places 39:30 and feed us in different food area. 39:33 But and it's one of the things 39:35 that has been real hard for my mother, 39:37 my father and mother also left the Amish 39:38 and are also shunned. 39:40 They are not Adventist, 39:41 we are the only ones in our entire family 39:43 that's Adventist expect for my married son. 39:46 But my mother and father are 74 and 76, 39:49 they have 99 grandchildren, 100-- 39:52 I'm sorry 60 some great grandchildren 39:54 and grandchildren are getting married 39:55 they are not allowed to come to the wedding. 39:57 So that's a very real heartbreak for them. 39:58 They aren't allowed. 39:59 In fact, my brother and sister who are twins 40:02 that the sister said to my brother as he left Amish 40:05 I don't want to ever see you again, 40:06 don't want to ever hear from you again. 40:07 She had tears running down her face. 40:09 She thought it was her duty to complete this, 40:11 you know, shunning excommunication. 40:14 However they've since been more open 40:16 to at least have us come visit to be there 40:18 but we can't interact on any kind of spiritual level. 40:21 Now we got to move along 40:23 because first of all it is a riveting story 40:24 and this could easily be two hour sort of saga. 40:29 You are in New Zealand, 40:32 the Lord is brining all this value. 40:34 Are you with your first wife? 40:36 No, my first wife had already passed. 40:38 Already passed and you already lost the son by that time. 40:40 Now walk us through that very quickly. 40:42 Okay. Yeah. 40:45 Very difficult to do 40:46 because it's of all the various details 40:49 there is so many details 40:50 I'll just have to make this really short. 40:54 In-- I'm sorry 1986 when we first married 40:58 my first wife and I in March 14th 1986 41:01 within 11 months less than a year later 41:04 she developed this condition. 41:06 We didn't know what was going on. 41:07 She had this numbness, this tingling 41:08 on the right side of her face. 41:10 It spreads to her entire body but it was a gradual process. 41:12 It wasn't like a stroke 41:14 where you just instantly you are numb. 41:16 We spent three years and many, many dollars 41:20 trying to figure out what's going on. 41:21 They eventually had diagnoses from Mayo Clinic 41:24 it's multiple sclerosis and she was wheelchair bound 41:28 that was in the first six months 41:29 of this issue developing. 41:30 She was later through real meditation units 41:33 able to do some walking with the walker 41:35 just for little bit but then what's the word, 41:39 it was not really in remission but it had slow down some 41:42 but then it actually got worse again. 41:44 she was on a wheelchair the rest of her life 41:46 and due to complications because of the wheelchair use 41:49 the scoliosis from the leaning on the armrest her backbone 41:53 pneumonia set in at one point and she passed away from that. 41:58 There were so many details relating to her passing. 42:01 The last week of her life, 42:03 she was two and half weeks in the hospital, 42:04 she had lot of visions 42:06 and things that the Lord revealed to her. 42:09 At one point even telling me that she was shown 42:12 that there will be another death in the community 42:15 and she didn't say in our family 42:16 but so she said I see this young boy, 42:20 he is about five or six years old, 42:22 he looks like someone in my side of the family 42:25 but I can't see who it is, I can't tell who it is. 42:28 Our younger son was one year old 42:29 when she passed away, he was six when he was killed. 42:32 So it brings a lot larger glimpse of my son 42:35 at the time of his passing. 42:36 And so that when my son was killed 42:39 five years later at the age of six 42:42 we were comforted to realize that 42:43 God already knew that 42:46 and we know God knows every end from every beginning 42:48 but there was a fire accident where my son was killed 42:50 but in my wife's passing there was a number 42:53 very profound, very amazing things that happened, 42:56 she actually named Katie as the person 42:58 who will take her place 43:00 which I strongly resisted God did some miraculous things 43:03 to bring us together. 43:05 Even I believe an angel at our door. 43:08 You want me to tell the story, you have-- 43:12 There are so many facets to this, it's a fabulous story. 43:15 We've got to get you into the Adventist church 43:17 and back to the United States so we got to make this round, 43:20 we got to make this great leap, man. 43:22 Okay, go for it. 43:25 Just so much here but you are in New Zealand, 43:31 the whole Adventist thing, 43:33 the Lord has been tracking you down 43:34 and He has pretty much got your attention 43:36 now He has caught you. 43:37 Get us back to the States and to what you are doing, 43:39 what you are doing now? 43:41 Yeah. Well. 43:43 Yeah. Well. 43:44 That's what we are saying. Yeah. 43:47 Well, after we embraced the truth 43:50 as the Adventist believer at one point I kept saying 43:52 that Adventist truths and I then I realize 43:54 this is not the Adventist truth it's the Bible truth 43:56 as the Adventist understand it. 43:57 Well, said. 43:59 We ponder, what are we gonna do, 44:01 here we have these people 44:03 because besides my son and his family 44:04 there was another family had already arrived 44:06 and there was more coming 44:09 and many of these are gonna work in our business 44:11 and just help us and again 44:12 we were like self supporting pastors. 44:14 So we talked to the others that were there 44:18 and we encourage them to watch these DVDs with us 44:20 and they agreed to. 44:22 The one family there, 44:23 the husband was basically persuaded, 44:26 he was wrestling, struggling. 44:28 One night he struggled and prayed 44:29 till three o'clock in the morning. 44:31 His wife in his own words finally convinced him 44:35 that he is being deceived, he needs to just get clear this 44:39 and get rid of this whole idea. 44:41 So what happed is we became estranged 44:43 from our church I guess 44:45 and so I realize that this is gonna work. 44:48 I could have-- we could have stayed 44:49 in New Zealand 44:50 and we had some friends there who were helping us. 44:52 I never went to an Adventist church in New Zealand. 44:55 The place where we at was quite remote in Canterbury District 44:57 and there were some Adventist in the area 44:59 but there was only few couples 45:01 and so we met for Bible studies and things. 45:02 We are very new, we were still resisting 45:05 the Spirit of Prophecy like a woman a prophet 45:07 and yet I saw the ratings. 45:09 We were resisting the health message, 45:11 no one is gonna take my meat, 45:12 Jesus ate fish that kind of thing. 45:17 So we realized that 45:21 something is got to change here 45:22 so we talked to our friends there. 45:24 We said, you know, I have a lot of family 45:26 and a lot of friends back in the States 45:29 and I would love to go 45:30 and in my think I'm thinking I'll just go and explain 45:33 or just study through this 45:34 and they will just see this like we did. 45:37 I should have know better because when we left the Amish 45:38 we too thought then that we would just explain 45:41 what salvation is really about. 45:42 It's not about being Amish 45:44 it's about having your name in Jesus' hands 45:45 not in the church register. 45:48 So they said, no, I said, we'll just go back. 45:52 You don't have to move your, you know, you're a leader here 45:54 you kind of coordinated this whole thing. 45:56 And so I said, no, I really have a burden to go back. 45:59 I feel like the Lord is telling us to go back 46:01 and I can't go into the details of the events 46:04 how God had the airlines on our tickets 46:07 that were six months old or five months at that point 46:11 old for a six month from coming in departure 46:14 as supposed to be a round trip 46:17 but you only use it one way if you are gonna stay there. 46:18 We were gonna stay there. 46:20 So you are supposed to call 46:21 to be more than 30 days, you know, back. 46:23 And then like, at first like we will give You a credit 46:25 and it was like we will give You a bigger credit. 46:27 Finally like and I kept praying like 46:28 Lord, if You want us to go back make a clear signal. 46:31 And all of a sudden she is like, 46:32 you know, we are gonna give you your whole family's tickets 46:34 the whole thing back it's like $15,000. 46:36 Wow. I said, wow. 46:37 So God brought us back. 46:39 We had so many experiences 46:41 I will really try to answer your question 46:43 this is so profound, I get so excited 46:45 about this part of my struggle. 46:46 We came back and the local newspaper editor, 46:50 religious editor of Ludington, Michigan, 46:52 it's a small town paper about 18,000 homes it goes to. 46:55 We are good friends, we had to work 46:56 for him like three times, doing the rough, 46:58 doing the garage various things so we are friends besides, 47:01 you know, I know he is a religious editor, 47:03 he knows I was a pastor 47:05 and he knew we had gone to New Zealand. 47:06 He said, why did you go to New Zealand? 47:08 I said, I just want to put an ad 47:09 in the paper that we are back 47:10 and we are open for business again in six months 47:12 because we've been well known throughout the state 47:14 in many, many, many jobs, many careers working. 47:18 So he is like, oh, this sounds like a story. 47:20 I said, oh, I'm not looking for a story. 47:22 We had been in the paper like seven times, 47:23 when my wife died, when my son was killed, 47:25 when we started the church there, 47:26 we had baptisms, when I crashed my plane, 47:28 there is all these things that happened 47:30 we are front page news so. 47:32 Here he is want to put us in the paper again. 47:34 He says, yeah, I'm gonna come out listen to your story. 47:36 He did a full front page and another full page 47:39 at the back about Amish rebel leaves country, 47:43 comes back Seventh-day Adventist 47:45 and he quoted Doug Batchelor, he quoted the books like 47:48 Ten Commandments Twice Removed, he explained 47:52 a lot of the basic doctrines in the articles. 47:54 Talked about the VHS tapes we watched by Doug. 47:58 I started getting phone calls. 47:59 Okay, I saw your article in the paper, 48:01 can we have that set of DVDs that you are talking about. 48:03 Can we have that book, 48:05 where do I get the books you are refereeing to? 48:07 And handed out hundreds of DVDs and books and things. 48:10 And the other thing that happened there is, 48:12 you know, I'm a businessman at that time 48:14 I'm working construction and I go into a lumber yard, 48:18 I just want to pick up a few things 48:19 and I'm preaching through Revelation seminars, 48:21 a local Adventist pastor at that point 48:22 had me preach the Revelation seminar 48:25 and I just answered a simple question. 48:26 I started show about Daniel and Revelation 48:28 and within a couple minutes 11 people gathered 48:31 and for 30 minutes I just share about Revelation and Daniel. 48:34 And the same way at the bank, I'm making deposit 48:36 and teller ask if we were sick, I said, no, 48:38 but this time we are vegetarian. 48:39 We are vegan we don't get sick. 48:41 And just like, wow, so there is a whole line 48:43 of people all the tellers, two of the loan officers 48:45 God just ordained these things. 48:47 From there we ended up 48:49 going on mission trips to Mexico, 48:51 to India, Thailand, Cambodia working with in the evangelism 48:55 the director of Southeast Asia Missions, 48:57 Doug Venn is a personal friend of ours, very good friend. 48:59 Fourteen countries, a billion people 49:01 we have gone to various countries like that 49:03 building schools, churches, helping at schools, 49:06 doing preaching seminars, 49:07 we are in the Philippines just recently 49:09 for ten night seminar where dozen scores 49:13 of people converted to Christ and Adventism 49:15 were baptized into the church there and. 49:17 So I don't want to just go on 49:19 if you have another question but that's-- 49:21 Yeah, just no, I'm fascinated 49:24 and we are both kind of lockdown here 49:26 because it such an exciting story. 49:28 And the punch line is that all of this has happened 49:31 within the last ten years or less. 49:33 Five, six, about five and half years. 49:34 About five and half years. 49:35 Yes, so God has moved you along extremely rapidly 49:38 and give you a wealth of experiences. 49:40 Meanwhile you picked up a new wife 49:42 in the bargain and you are pastoring now. 49:46 Yeah, talk to us just a little bit about 49:47 what you are doing, what's happening right now? 49:49 All right, we actually got connected 49:52 where is a church in Washington that had one, 49:55 there is out of 300,000 Amish people 49:57 we don't know of, we didn't know of anyone 50:00 who had formally been Amish and embraced Adventism 50:03 but through a friend in North Carolina 50:05 we found out about this former Amish couple in Washington 50:09 that helped start and organize a church 50:11 in Lone Lake, Washington 50:13 and so they put us in touch with them 50:16 and as far as we know our two families 50:18 and now a third family in Ohio, Andy Weaver 50:21 and his wife Naomi are the only three-- 50:23 I'm sorry there's just been a fourth family 50:26 that has come out of the Amish and joined Adventism. 50:29 So we were baptized by immersion 50:31 even though after my initial Amish baptism 50:34 the sprinkle which I was a rebel at the time, 50:36 I was later immersed in Lake Michigan 50:39 as a very sincere born again believer 50:42 but it was a Sunday keeping church 50:44 and when I embraced Adventism 50:45 I said, you know, kind of like the disciples that 50:47 didn't even hear about the Holy Spirit. 50:48 I said, I was baptized in nine commandments 50:51 I didn't know there was a-- 50:53 And so we were baptized by immersion 50:55 by the leaders of the church there 50:57 and since then I have been brought into an eldership 50:59 and just helping the pastor. 51:01 And so we've also been very involved in contributing 51:04 and distributing funds, literature 51:07 and doing the short term mission trips 51:09 under various umbrellas. 51:10 Jesus for Asia, Jon Wood an Adventist 51:13 from Tennessee has his ministry 51:15 where they did these trips overseas. 51:16 We help fund Bible workers, we go on these trips 51:19 help build school, churches, and preaching seminars. 51:21 God has given you a very, very unique ministry 51:24 and He has painted in very, very, broad brush 51:29 so it's branded so much that, you know-- 51:32 and so should you like to make contact with Pastor Kenneth 51:35 and his wife Katie who didn't get a chance 51:37 to talk too much today but she actually does talk 51:40 and talks very well when she does so. 51:42 So if you want to make contact, 51:43 have them come to your church or to your group, 51:45 may be to a young people to talk 51:46 here's how you can do precisely that. 51:52 If you would like to contact Ken Helmuth 51:54 to learn more about his testimony 51:56 you can write to, Ken Helmuth, 4105, 51:59 East Springdale-Hunters Road, Springdale, Washington, 99173. 52:05 That's Ken Helmuth, 4105, East Springdale-Hunters Road, 52:10 Springdale, Washington, 99173. 52:13 You can call 509-262-8213, 52:18 that's 509-262-8213 52:22 or you can email him at kennethhelmuth@rocketmail.com 52:27 that's kennethhelmuth@rocketmail.com. |
Revised 2015-10-22