I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Removing pain
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Lord, let my words
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Heal a heart that hurts
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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I want to spend my life
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Mending broken people
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Hello, and
welcome to 3ABN today.
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My name is C.A.
Murray and allow me
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once again to
thank you for sharing
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just a little of your
no doubt busy day with us.
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To again thank you for
your love, your prayers,
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your support of this ministry.
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We've got an exciting show.
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I'm in the company
of CFO Brian Hamilton.
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Brian, good to have you here.
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Good to be here again.
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CFO, money guy,
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financial
director, all of the above.
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Always good to have
you and you can come out
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away from the filthy lucre.
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Yeah, take my
green hat and shade off
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and I actually be
here with the rest of you.
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Yeah. I enjoyed too.
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It's a nice change.
Good to have you here.
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Got a very
interesting show for you today
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and in fact Brian
perhaps knows a little bit more
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about this than even I
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but the title what
we are giving the show
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our title would
be Amish to Adventism
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or Amish to Adventist
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and we are gonna meet two people
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that we only know to show
rather but I only know to show
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but sometimes you meet people
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and you kind of
like them right off,
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something about them
just kind of appeals to you.
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So we want to introduce you
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to Pastor Kenneth
and wife Katie Helmut.
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Helmuth, did I
get that right? Yeah.
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Helmuth. The
"th" sound in English.
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All right, we all
know "th" in English
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in German it will be Helmuth.
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Yeah. Okay, very good.
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Amish Adventist that's
what we are talking about
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and they have got
a great testimony.
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This is an interesting saga
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that you want to sort
of give ear to, Brian,
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because it's a great
journey and a great story.
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Yes, it is. Yes, it is.
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We were at ASI
here not too long ago
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and I was at the booth
and this couple came by
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and they looked
should I say a bit Amish.
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Is that right? Yeah.
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Okay, and that's--
not usually the setting
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that you see Amish
people and, you know, at ASI.
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Now I will add, I
personally and I think society
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in general have great respect
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for our Amish
brothers and sisters.
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Their work ethic,
their spirituality,
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their family values,
society looks very positively,
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now whether they want
that lifestyle for themselves
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or not maybe totally different.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And so when I saw you
folk coming up to the booth,
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you know, and I go,
oh, this is interesting.
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I like to get to
know this couple,
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see what their
story is, you know.
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And so that's kind
of how we got acquainted
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and that was the
background to it.
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And we founded to be a
very interesting story,
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very, very,
very, fantastic story
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and you will come to know
them and come to love them.
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God has brought them
through many experiences,
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really quite a long way
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and it has been
a wonderful journey
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and they are here today.
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And the punch line is
that that he is pastoring now
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in the Adventist church
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and we are
certainly thankful for that.
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Before we unpack the story
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I think we'll go
right to our music
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then come back
and spend some time
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with Kenneth and Katie.
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Our music today comes
to us from Jamie Jorge,
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great friend of this ministry,
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long time
friend of this ministry
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and a great
person, great violinist.
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He is gonna be
playing "It Is No Secret."
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And we are back.
Well, done, Jamie Jorge.
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It is no secret what God can do.
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Brian Hamilton, C.A.
Murray here and Katie
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and Pastor Kenneth
Helmuth are with us.
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We need to get right
into interesting story
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and we got to ask you,
give me some sense on flavor
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of what it was like growing
up in your home as a young,
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Amish young man.
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And where are
you from originally?
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Okay, I was born in
the state of Illinois
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a kind of south central,
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south of Champaign
Urbana about 35 miles
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there is a fairly
large Amish community there
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and I was born in '64,
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so 51 years ago
into Amish family.
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I had six
brothers and six sisters
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and I guess I don't want to--
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I want to make this
clear at the beginning,
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I don't want to shed
a bad light on anyone
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just for the purpose
of bad nausing anyone.
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There is a lot of
good in my background
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as far as the Amish
culture, the Amish lifestyle
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that there are certain
things that are not so good
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and our home is fairly
troubled home in growing up,
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dysfunctional home in
that there was a lot of verbal
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and some physical abuse
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but overall we still
had a lot of happy times,
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a lot of good memories.
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And, you know, growing up
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without
electricity, without phones
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using horse and
buggy all that was just,
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you know, you are
born into this, you grow up
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and you don't
expect anything else.
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In fact we
considered our Amish lifestyle,
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the Amish church to
sort of be God's elite,
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God's special people and
the other people out there
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the regular people they were--
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some of them where Christians,
some of them are okay
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but they are worldly Christians
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because of the
modernism that they have.
00:10:36.60\00:10:38.97
And so it was, it was
a challenging lifestyle
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as far as to make ends
meet you have to work very hard
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with not having
all the conveniences.
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So I believe
some of the work ethic
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maybe from our German roots
and some of it is necessity.
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Great. Yeah.
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If you don't have
all the conveniences
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you have to work harder
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and that also helps maintain
the community orientation
00:11:00.59\00:11:04.96
in the Amish culture.
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You have a lot more
of the community mindset
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than you will find
in mainstream America
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which I believe if you go
back far enough in America
00:11:11.57\00:11:14.07
you will find that there too.
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You know, people
getting together to help with,
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you know, raising a barn,
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you know, bringing
into crops things like that.
00:11:18.61\00:11:20.94
So in the Amish culture
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there is a lot
of that by necessity
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and some of that is
being lost to some degree
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just because in the Amish world
there is a lot of advances,
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you know, modernism progressive,
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you know, things coming
into help make it easier
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to make a living the
times that we are living.
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So, you know, as far
as growing up Amish church
00:11:38.93\00:11:43.83
again there is
probably quite different
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than what most
people experience.
00:11:45.77\00:11:47.24
In the Amish church experience
you have church service--
00:11:47.27\00:11:51.07
this is pretty universal.
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Church services every two
weeks instead of every Sunday.
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And some Amish
communities will have
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what we call the
in between Sunday
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we'll have a Sunday school
00:12:00.72\00:12:03.69
but many Amish
communities don't allow that.
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They believe it's to over read,
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too much studies of
Bible can be harmful
00:12:07.36\00:12:09.79
because it has been proven--
00:12:09.82\00:12:11.93
I'm speaking from
an Amish perspective
00:12:11.96\00:12:13.60
it's been proven
that a lot of people
00:12:13.63\00:12:16.40
when they really study the Bible
00:12:16.43\00:12:18.13
and studied intensely will
end up leaving their mission.
00:12:18.17\00:12:22.30
And so the equation
in the Amish mindset
00:12:22.34\00:12:25.37
becomes anything that takes away
00:12:25.41\00:12:28.18
from being Amish is dangerous
even if it's the Bible.
00:12:28.21\00:12:30.48
Even it is too much Bible.
00:12:30.51\00:12:31.85
Yeah. Wow.
00:12:31.88\00:12:33.21
So in our communities
that we grew up in was,
00:12:33.25\00:12:35.88
there was a
perception sometimes voice,
00:12:35.92\00:12:39.79
sometimes just its
there that too much prayer,
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too much Bible
study can be harmful.
00:12:43.32\00:12:45.69
So study the Bible but carefully
00:12:45.73\00:12:47.93
so you don't get deviated.
00:12:47.96\00:12:49.30
So that's an interesting wrinkle
00:12:49.33\00:12:50.67
that I had not heard before.
00:12:50.70\00:12:52.07
So the goal is not
necessarily to develop
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a working relation with
Christ, it's to stay Amish.
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That is the primary goal. Yeah.
00:12:58.11\00:12:59.57
I would have to
say, yes, good question.
00:12:59.61\00:13:01.88
It would be the primary goal
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because they would
also say it's important
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to have a
relationship with the Lord
00:13:07.05\00:13:09.55
and there is a,
there is a reluctance
00:13:09.58\00:13:13.89
or hesitation to be
too verbal or too personal
00:13:13.92\00:13:16.39
about your relationship,
that's your private thing.
00:13:16.42\00:13:19.83
You know, you go to
church and externally
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you are a good church member.
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You, you know, pay your dews
00:13:23.26\00:13:25.10
and you live your life
according to the Amish standard
00:13:25.13\00:13:28.17
but it is very much about
preserving the Amish heritage
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that is, that is true.
00:13:32.17\00:13:33.74
And there are many
Amish who do know the Lord
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and have a saving
knowledge of Jesus.
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A personal
relationship that sadly for most
00:13:38.41\00:13:43.39
it is a Jesus plus Amish gospel
00:13:43.42\00:13:46.65
and we now
believe it is Jesus only.
00:13:46.69\00:13:49.02
Yeah. Okay.
00:13:49.06\00:13:50.89
So, you know, in growing up
00:13:50.93\00:13:53.93
even though we went
to church every two weeks
00:13:53.96\00:13:56.53
and we had in our home,
00:13:56.56\00:13:58.33
we had a lot of good
books and I love to read.
00:13:58.37\00:14:02.94
In fact, as a young boy I
often received a spankings
00:14:02.97\00:14:08.21
for not getting my
chores done on time
00:14:08.24\00:14:10.45
because I'm off
somewhere reading a book,
00:14:10.48\00:14:12.71
even sometimes hiding behind
the furniture up and the barn,
00:14:12.75\00:14:16.05
you know, somewhere
with a book and I'm reading.
00:14:16.08\00:14:19.55
And so I love to read
and I bless God for that
00:14:19.59\00:14:22.56
because I believe the
whole era of reading books
00:14:22.59\00:14:27.96
and just dividing
everything get hold of it.
00:14:28.00\00:14:29.56
It can't be bad but in our
home we had a lot of good books
00:14:29.60\00:14:31.83
including the Arthur
Maxwell Bible story books.
00:14:31.87\00:14:35.70
I read those
through a number of times.
00:14:35.74\00:14:38.14
If I could interject you-- Sure.
00:14:38.17\00:14:39.64
Katie, let's ask the
same question of you,
00:14:39.67\00:14:43.18
as a girl growing up,
what was it like as little girl
00:14:43.55\00:14:46.82
growing up in Amish home?
00:14:46.85\00:14:48.18
What was your family like?
00:14:48.22\00:14:50.15
Tell us a little bit
of dynamics of your home.
00:14:50.19\00:14:54.49
I was born in
Indiana in a family of 14.
00:14:54.52\00:15:02.10
Oh, 14, okay.
00:15:02.13\00:15:04.07
Yeah, 10 brothers and 3 sisters.
00:15:04.10\00:15:07.27
Okay.
00:15:07.30\00:15:08.64
And-- yeah, we
moved to Missouri then
00:15:08.67\00:15:12.41
when I was five then
to I went when I was 12.
00:15:12.44\00:15:18.88
You know, through that time
I didn't really think a lot,
00:15:18.91\00:15:21.58
you know, about
noticed we were being raised
00:15:21.62\00:15:26.92
that was just the way it is.
00:15:26.96\00:15:28.92
Yeah. So normal life to you.
00:15:28.96\00:15:30.63
Yeah. Okay.
00:15:30.66\00:15:31.99
But, you know,
once you get up there
00:15:32.03\00:15:33.73
a little bit
older and you wonder,
00:15:33.76\00:15:36.36
you know, what is this all about
00:15:36.40\00:15:39.57
and then you come
to the realization,
00:15:39.60\00:15:43.41
you know, that you want
to be right with the Lord
00:15:43.44\00:15:48.61
and, you know, what is right
00:15:48.64\00:15:50.58
or how do you
know what is right.
00:15:50.61\00:15:54.32
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:54.35\00:15:55.68
But was your
family a happy family,
00:15:55.72\00:15:57.42
hardworking, just that?
00:15:57.45\00:15:58.89
Yeah, yeah, we had, we
had, I mean, we had childs too
00:15:58.92\00:16:04.69
but, you know, I mean, we
were happy family so then.
00:16:04.73\00:16:08.26
Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:08.30\00:16:09.63
The idea that there could
be dysfunction in such a type,
00:16:09.66\00:16:13.07
you know, that people
look on from the outside
00:16:13.10\00:16:16.14
it's kind of,
it's kind of shocking.
00:16:16.17\00:16:19.24
And I'm getting a
picture because those of us
00:16:19.27\00:16:22.71
who are not Amish
always of the mindset,
00:16:22.74\00:16:26.95
you know, they are just,
they are doing this Amish thing
00:16:26.98\00:16:31.19
but they really
want to be like us
00:16:31.22\00:16:33.15
and you are saying
for the true believer
00:16:33.19\00:16:35.76
that's not true at all.
00:16:35.79\00:16:37.13
They want to be what they are
and they are not looking at us
00:16:37.16\00:16:39.63
with any kind of
jaundice look like,
00:16:39.66\00:16:41.00
I want to be like them.
00:16:41.03\00:16:42.36
They want to be what they
are and do what they are doing.
00:16:42.40\00:16:43.73
Right, I would
say that is very true
00:16:43.77\00:16:46.07
for the vast majority.
00:16:46.10\00:16:47.47
There may be in their--
there are some individuals
00:16:47.50\00:16:50.01
who may be looking
over fence as it were
00:16:50.04\00:16:52.51
but for the most part and
for myself I had no desire.
00:16:52.54\00:16:55.31
I had not the slightest inkling
of a desire until I was 37
00:16:55.34\00:17:00.02
to ever leave the Amish.
00:17:00.05\00:17:01.38
I just over secured there,
I was safe having gone through
00:17:01.42\00:17:04.75
a little bit of
trouble childhood,
00:17:04.79\00:17:07.39
you know, entered
to trade a rebellion
00:17:07.42\00:17:09.32
and gotten into drugs
and alcohol as an Amish youth
00:17:09.36\00:17:13.60
and then the Lord
delivering me from that
00:17:13.63\00:17:15.16
giving me a clear
salvation experience
00:17:15.20\00:17:17.63
I was very satisfied there.
00:17:17.67\00:17:19.57
And, you know, I believed
that since the Lord met me there
00:17:19.60\00:17:23.67
and delivered me there
that I could not imagine
00:17:23.71\00:17:26.94
or fathom that
there is another step
00:17:26.98\00:17:28.74
in the process of light
00:17:28.78\00:17:30.11
that He would take
me to apart from Amish.
00:17:30.15\00:17:33.48
Just a real quick short
story to emphasis this point
00:17:33.52\00:17:37.62
how for most
Amish these salvation
00:17:37.65\00:17:41.62
it begins with
Jesus and it is Jesus
00:17:41.66\00:17:43.63
but if you are born Amish
00:17:43.66\00:17:44.99
you must remain Amish
or you will lose that.
00:17:45.03\00:17:49.30
The mindset is that if
you are not born Amish,
00:17:49.33\00:17:52.27
for example either one
of you having not been born
00:17:52.30\00:17:56.04
into an Amish culture or family
00:17:56.07\00:17:58.84
if you are a Christian
you will be fully accepted.
00:17:58.87\00:18:00.64
It's not that the Amish believe
00:18:00.68\00:18:02.24
that they are
the only Christians
00:18:02.28\00:18:03.98
or that you have to be
Amish to make it to heaven.
00:18:04.01\00:18:07.02
It's just that if
you are born there
00:18:07.05\00:18:08.82
you must stay there
00:18:08.85\00:18:10.29
and they primarily
would use Colossians 2,
00:18:10.32\00:18:13.02
"As you have
received the Lord Jesus,
00:18:13.86\00:18:16.06
so walk in Him
rooted and grounded
00:18:16.09\00:18:17.69
and build up in the faith."
00:18:17.73\00:18:19.29
And in the German it
sounds slightly different
00:18:19.33\00:18:21.70
it's the same thought but
it sounds slightly different.
00:18:21.73\00:18:23.67
Almost sounds
like, wherever you are
00:18:23.70\00:18:25.50
when you accept
Jesus stay there.
00:18:25.53\00:18:27.07
Stay there. Yeah.
00:18:27.10\00:18:28.67
So that's a little bit of
a misinterpretation there.
00:18:28.70\00:18:32.87
So and when you are
baptized into the Amish church
00:18:32.91\00:18:35.48
you are usually
baptized on your knees
00:18:35.51\00:18:38.18
in the church
building which is the homes,
00:18:38.21\00:18:40.52
they have church
services in their homes.
00:18:40.55\00:18:42.58
And it's a set of
vows and commitments
00:18:42.62\00:18:45.55
and within those
vows that you make
00:18:45.59\00:18:48.32
you commit to maintaining
the standard of this church,
00:18:48.36\00:18:51.39
this being God's true church
on threat of death or life
00:18:51.43\00:18:56.43
whatever it may cost you
00:18:56.46\00:18:57.80
will remain
faithful to this church.
00:18:57.83\00:18:59.17
So to them it becomes a
matter of breaking vows.
00:18:59.20\00:19:02.14
And the short
story I wanted to share
00:19:02.17\00:19:03.51
is as a young Amish man
after I had been married
00:19:03.54\00:19:07.08
and some of us men would
gather on a Friday evening
00:19:07.11\00:19:10.25
and sing,
practice singing the hymns
00:19:10.28\00:19:12.61
that the Amish sing in church
because there are German hymn,
00:19:12.65\00:19:15.08
there are German
hymns and they are put
00:19:15.12\00:19:17.59
to very slow sort
of a chant tune it.
00:19:17.62\00:19:20.79
It takes 22 minutes to
sing the main song that is sung
00:19:20.82\00:19:24.73
in every Amish church.
00:19:24.76\00:19:26.29
Service takes 22 minutes
00:19:26.33\00:19:28.26
and it's four
stanzas seven lines each.
00:19:28.30\00:19:31.80
It takes 22
minutes approximately.
00:19:31.83\00:19:33.17
Some communities are little more
00:19:33.20\00:19:34.54
some little less but that's--
00:19:34.57\00:19:35.90
it's a very slow singsong chant.
00:19:35.94\00:19:38.94
And a lot of these
songs are like that
00:19:38.97\00:19:40.51
and so since there
is no written music
00:19:40.54\00:19:43.51
it's all by memory.
00:19:43.55\00:19:44.88
And so we would gather
and just practice these
00:19:44.91\00:19:46.92
so that the Sunday
service we can sing these songs.
00:19:46.95\00:19:50.55
Our bishop one Sunday at service
00:19:50.59\00:19:53.46
said he knows we are doing this
00:19:53.49\00:19:54.82
and many people are
just-- he said it's fine
00:19:54.86\00:19:56.19
but he said make sure
00:19:56.22\00:19:57.86
that you keep
this practice singing
00:19:57.89\00:20:00.30
we called it as
a practice singing.
00:20:00.33\00:20:02.86
He said, don't start
doing prayer and Bible study.
00:20:02.90\00:20:06.33
And of course I'm a
young man and I respect--
00:20:06.37\00:20:09.47
there is a lot of teaching
on respect and obedience
00:20:09.50\00:20:11.94
and submission
in the Amish church.
00:20:11.97\00:20:14.34
Now the Amish
lifestyle, for authority,
00:20:14.38\00:20:16.11
for sonority and so
I value their opinions.
00:20:16.14\00:20:19.41
He is preaching he says,
there was a group of young men
00:20:19.45\00:20:23.49
who gathered together to
practice the church hymns
00:20:23.52\00:20:26.25
and someone made the suggestion
why don't we pray first
00:20:26.29\00:20:28.86
and so they prayed
00:20:28.89\00:20:30.53
and next thing
they are all praying
00:20:30.56\00:20:32.29
before they sing
and then someone suggest
00:20:32.33\00:20:34.76
why don't we also read
a chapter from the Bible.
00:20:34.80\00:20:37.50
And then they do that
00:20:37.53\00:20:39.33
they start
discussing the chapter
00:20:39.37\00:20:40.84
and he said it
turns into a Bible study.
00:20:40.87\00:20:43.00
And in his closing
warning he makes a statement,
00:20:43.04\00:20:46.94
he says, today not
one of those brothers
00:20:46.98\00:20:51.88
are in the Amish
church, they have all left.
00:20:51.91\00:20:54.02
You know, and the
equation in the Amish mind
00:20:54.05\00:20:56.79
for the most part is that
00:20:56.82\00:20:58.35
that there was
something wrong with that.
00:20:58.39\00:21:01.06
Because we are
secure in the Amish setting
00:21:01.09\00:21:03.63
why would we
want to leave anything
00:21:03.66\00:21:05.76
that takes us away
to a loss condition
00:21:05.79\00:21:08.30
would have to bad.
00:21:08.33\00:21:09.66
So let's not do a
prayer meeting, Bible study.
00:21:09.70\00:21:11.67
In fact, in most churches
you would excommunicated
00:21:11.70\00:21:14.60
or at least disappoint
00:21:14.64\00:21:15.97
if you start
something like that.
00:21:16.00\00:21:17.34
Wow.
00:21:17.37\00:21:19.37
So this gives a
whole new understanding
00:21:19.41\00:21:22.04
on how the Amish view
themselves and the wider world.
00:21:22.08\00:21:25.41
They are quite
content being Amish.
00:21:25.45\00:21:28.72
How then because it seems
like the leap from being Amish
00:21:28.75\00:21:33.76
to Adventism is
such a great leap
00:21:33.79\00:21:35.76
but you had and I use to
term brushes with Adventism
00:21:35.79\00:21:38.89
and Adventist
doctrine all along.
00:21:38.93\00:21:40.46
Walk us through that experience.
00:21:40.50\00:21:42.20
Okay, yeah, and it's
about a 25 year encounter
00:21:42.23\00:21:47.34
if you will or
series of encounters
00:21:47.37\00:21:48.84
and it overlapped
some of the other details
00:21:48.87\00:21:51.57
I might be sharing but I
will try to go through that
00:21:51.61\00:21:54.54
and then if we need to come back
00:21:54.58\00:21:55.91
and pick up some of the things.
00:21:55.94\00:21:57.31
So as a young boy
00:21:57.35\00:21:58.68
reading through
the Bible study books
00:21:58.71\00:22:00.22
I noticed the Sabbath in
there and that was my first
00:22:00.25\00:22:02.72
if you will encounter
or brush with Adventism
00:22:02.75\00:22:05.92
and again
didn't know these books
00:22:05.95\00:22:07.29
were written by Adventist.
00:22:07.32\00:22:08.72
So I ask my
mother one day and said,
00:22:08.76\00:22:10.29
why do we go to
church on Sunday?
00:22:10.33\00:22:11.99
Yeah, let me stop
into, I kind of ask you.
00:22:12.03\00:22:14.10
How do those
books get in your home?
00:22:14.13\00:22:16.46
A lot of Amish shelf
there I'm not sure at that age.
00:22:16.50\00:22:19.77
I know when I got married
we decided to get these books
00:22:19.80\00:22:23.81
including the Bible Story
or the Bed Time story books
00:22:23.84\00:22:26.54
and my Jesus friends books
because we had a young family
00:22:26.57\00:22:29.88
and I appreciated these books.
00:22:29.91\00:22:32.35
Most Amish expect
00:22:32.38\00:22:33.72
everything in
these books the Sabbath
00:22:33.75\00:22:36.45
and the issue of Jacob
00:22:36.48\00:22:37.82
and how that all
went with the cheating
00:22:37.85\00:22:39.75
the birthright
thing, calling him a cheater
00:22:39.79\00:22:42.09
the Amish reject that as a whole
00:22:42.12\00:22:43.49
that he was not a
cheater that was God's will.
00:22:43.89\00:22:47.06
But most of the
Amish love those books.
00:22:47.10\00:22:49.16
It brings the
Bible into a story form
00:22:49.20\00:22:50.80
that young children
who grasp which-- yeah.
00:22:50.83\00:22:53.67
So then she gave me, my
mother gave me the usual answer
00:22:53.70\00:22:57.44
Jesus rose on the
first day of the week
00:22:57.47\00:22:59.44
and also the other accompanies
God has often expressed
00:22:59.47\00:23:03.04
it doesn't
really matter which day
00:23:03.08\00:23:04.41
as long as to
worship God one day
00:23:04.45\00:23:06.11
and Sunday is the
day that is designated.
00:23:06.15\00:23:08.22
The Sabbath is
the Old Testament,
00:23:08.25\00:23:09.58
Sunday is the New
Testament, the Lord's day.
00:23:09.62\00:23:12.09
And since the Sabbath or
Sunday is called the Lord's day
00:23:12.12\00:23:16.69
by most Protestants
denominations people assume
00:23:16.73\00:23:19.19
that the Lord's
day in Revelation
00:23:19.23\00:23:21.23
when John was in the spirit
on the Lord's day is Sunday.
00:23:21.26\00:23:24.77
So then that was my first
brush if you will was Adventism,
00:23:24.80\00:23:28.40
not really Adventism
may be just the Sabbath
00:23:28.44\00:23:30.21
and then I also noticed
in the Bible story books
00:23:30.24\00:23:32.81
that Satan and the wicked
are devoured and burned up
00:23:32.84\00:23:35.14
and I knew from the
Bible even as a preteen
00:23:35.18\00:23:38.85
that it does speak of
that being devoured, destroyed,
00:23:38.88\00:23:41.98
you know, like
chaff on threshing floor
00:23:42.02\00:23:43.49
and yet I looked at
the verses forever and ever
00:23:43.52\00:23:46.39
and the Amish
teaching is very clear,
00:23:46.42\00:23:48.09
it's an eternal tournament.
00:23:48.12\00:23:49.89
You know, lot of hell fire
00:23:49.92\00:23:51.26
and brimstone
messages as a young boy.
00:23:51.29\00:23:52.63
In fact, as I entered
my rebellious teen years
00:23:52.66\00:23:55.76
where I experimented
with drugs and alcohol,
00:23:55.80\00:23:59.60
I sort of reacting to
some of the troubles at home
00:23:59.63\00:24:03.17
I all the way
through those years
00:24:03.20\00:24:05.14
I kept this thing
at the back of mind,
00:24:05.17\00:24:06.61
I want to get right
before it's too late
00:24:06.64\00:24:09.48
because I don't
want to spend eternity
00:24:09.51\00:24:11.35
in a burning home.
00:24:11.38\00:24:12.71
And I viewed my father in heaven
00:24:12.75\00:24:15.25
through the lens
of an Amish young boy
00:24:15.28\00:24:17.02
that had a very strict
father and I saw him as a God
00:24:17.05\00:24:20.06
with a big whip
and he will give me
00:24:20.09\00:24:21.82
great blessings if I obey
but great punishment if I don't
00:24:21.86\00:24:25.09
and I just assured
its fair, its equal.
00:24:25.13\00:24:26.80
If you are gonna live eternally
00:24:26.83\00:24:28.16
then you should be tormented
eternally if, you know,
00:24:28.20\00:24:30.20
right or wrong.
00:24:30.23\00:24:31.57
And that's the
general Amish mindset.
00:24:31.60\00:24:32.93
So the second,
second most profound example
00:24:32.97\00:24:36.40
of coming up to
this Sabbath truth
00:24:36.44\00:24:39.94
was after I was
married and I don't know
00:24:39.97\00:24:42.88
if I'm assuming you
are familiar with the book
00:24:42.91\00:24:44.98
"National Sunday
Law" by Jan Marcussen
00:24:45.01\00:24:47.62
I was probably 22 or 23
living in the state of Illinois
00:24:47.65\00:24:51.05
again my father
moved out from Iowa.
00:24:51.09\00:24:53.12
In fact, that's
where my wife, my wife now
00:24:53.15\00:24:55.62
and I had first-- the
families met each other.
00:24:55.66\00:24:58.79
I didn't marry her back
then but she is my wife now
00:24:58.83\00:25:02.93
after my first wife passed away.
00:25:02.96\00:25:04.93
So anyway in Iowa I
met my wife from Illinois
00:25:04.97\00:25:08.70
my first wife we
married lived there
00:25:08.74\00:25:10.41
a few years
move back to Illinois
00:25:10.44\00:25:12.37
and this mailing was done
00:25:12.41\00:25:14.31
I'm assuming by the
local Adventist church.
00:25:14.34\00:25:17.51
This book comes to my
house the National Sunday Law
00:25:17.55\00:25:20.38
and by this time
some of my Amish cousins
00:25:20.42\00:25:24.25
and myself are very
interested in Bible prophecy
00:25:24.29\00:25:27.16
and we conclude that
the beast in Revelation 13
00:25:27.19\00:25:30.19
and Revelation 17 is
the Roman Catholic Church.
00:25:30.23\00:25:33.19
But and we had this feeling that
00:25:33.23\00:25:34.80
America somehow
plays a major role
00:25:34.83\00:25:36.40
but we didn't know how
to put the fuses together.
00:25:36.43\00:25:38.00
And we kept looking at
the seven day week prophecy
00:25:38.03\00:25:39.93
and completely missed
the 2,300 day prophecy.
00:25:39.97\00:25:43.10
And in all of this
00:25:43.14\00:25:45.61
I'm concluding
the Catholic Church
00:25:45.64\00:25:47.84
is the beast power
and then I read this book
00:25:47.88\00:25:50.28
and it's like all the
pieces start coming together
00:25:50.31\00:25:52.15
about the mark of the
beast and these things
00:25:52.18\00:25:54.78
and so I approached someone
I don't remember who right now
00:25:54.82\00:25:58.75
but and I was again
like just the hush down like
00:25:58.79\00:26:02.32
this is okay,
this is their teaching,
00:26:02.36\00:26:04.36
this is not where we are at
00:26:04.39\00:26:05.86
and the teaching even though
I was a rebel as a young person
00:26:05.89\00:26:09.33
and I marvel now
that I didn't resist this
00:26:09.36\00:26:11.87
but the teaching was so strong
that you respect authority
00:26:11.90\00:26:15.10
and sonority
that I just accepted.
00:26:15.14\00:26:17.41
Okay, this book
if profound truth
00:26:17.44\00:26:19.91
but it's not for
me, it's not for us
00:26:19.94\00:26:21.61
somehow and I
wrestled with that.
00:26:21.64\00:26:23.28
I was troubled by
this is the truth.
00:26:23.31\00:26:25.81
I set the book aside and just
00:26:25.85\00:26:28.25
and very interesting experience
time is getting away from here.
00:26:28.28\00:26:32.99
A neighbour came across said,
00:26:33.02\00:26:34.36
did you get that
book National Sunday Law?
00:26:34.39\00:26:37.06
I said, yeah, and
I was about to say
00:26:37.09\00:26:38.46
I was so blessed it's tremendous
00:26:38.49\00:26:40.06
and then she said I did too.
00:26:40.10\00:26:41.86
She said I was so troubled by it
00:26:41.90\00:26:43.77
and she said I
heard voices and presence
00:26:43.80\00:26:45.77
and I threw it away
and everything cleared up.
00:26:45.80\00:26:47.37
And I thought wow, is
there something wrong with me?
00:26:47.40\00:26:49.67
That I think it's a
truth and I'm blessed
00:26:49.70\00:26:51.64
and then she is,
almost like cursed.
00:26:51.67\00:26:54.08
I was the second
one, this third time
00:26:54.11\00:26:56.68
after I left the Amish
00:26:56.71\00:26:58.05
and was
pastoring a Sunday church
00:26:58.08\00:27:00.22
a number of magazines
started arriving at our home.
00:27:00.25\00:27:03.25
People were
subscribed to a magazine for us
00:27:03.28\00:27:05.82
like the Spotlight, you
know, Jehovah's Witnesses,
00:27:05.85\00:27:08.92
The Watchtower,
Signs of the Times,
00:27:08.96\00:27:11.76
Marvin Moore many magazines
00:27:11.79\00:27:14.13
and in that we
got more books again.
00:27:14.16\00:27:16.53
And I had the Desire of Ages,
00:27:16.56\00:27:17.97
Steps to Christ
various materials
00:27:18.00\00:27:19.87
from the Spirit of
Prophecy in my home,
00:27:19.90\00:27:21.24
I love these books.
00:27:21.27\00:27:22.77
So here comes this book again
00:27:22.80\00:27:25.47
National Sunday
Law after 20 years
00:27:25.51\00:27:26.84
it comes again to my home.
00:27:26.88\00:27:28.68
And so I discussed this
again with some brothers
00:27:28.71\00:27:31.38
and this question just
kept coming up in my mind
00:27:31.41\00:27:34.72
and probably the most
profound one then was,
00:27:34.75\00:27:39.65
I received the book Ten
Commandments Twice Removed
00:27:39.69\00:27:41.52
by Danny Shelton
and Shelley Quinn
00:27:41.56\00:27:43.63
and this is just shortly before
we moved to New Zealand in 2009
00:27:43.66\00:27:49.06
and I read this book
and I just struggled.
00:27:49.10\00:27:51.77
I was pastoring this church,
I had several businesses,
00:27:51.83\00:27:54.14
it was not an Amish church
00:27:54.17\00:27:56.04
but this time we left the Amish.
00:27:56.07\00:27:58.44
I just struggled with this book
because there is so much truth
00:27:58.47\00:28:00.81
I could not contradict and
I did find one little thing
00:28:00.84\00:28:05.08
that I hung my
hat on as it were.
00:28:05.11\00:28:08.05
I thought they didn't
quote the entire verse.
00:28:08.08\00:28:09.98
In Isaiah 66, where
the prophet writes that,
00:28:10.02\00:28:13.02
as I live, saith
the Lord God, you know,
00:28:13.05\00:28:14.62
and every New
Moon and every Sabbath
00:28:14.66\00:28:16.22
or every Sabbath
and every New Moon
00:28:16.26\00:28:17.79
that all flesh will come.
00:28:17.83\00:28:19.16
They left out the
part about every New Moon,
00:28:19.19\00:28:20.73
they just had the little dot's.
00:28:20.76\00:28:22.10
You know, there
is more to the verse
00:28:22.13\00:28:23.47
but they didn't put
it on, I said, they know
00:28:23.50\00:28:24.83
that there is no sun
00:28:24.87\00:28:26.20
and no moon in the New Jerusalem
00:28:26.23\00:28:27.57
and so this
confounds the argument
00:28:27.60\00:28:29.04
it's not sound.
00:28:29.07\00:28:30.41
I was grasping
like a drowning man.
00:28:30.44\00:28:32.24
Yeah.
00:28:32.27\00:28:33.94
But the interesting thing
00:28:33.98\00:28:35.31
I'll try to go
through this real quickly.
00:28:35.34\00:28:37.11
I had several businesses,
we had rental properties,
00:28:37.15\00:28:40.35
foster children,
00:28:40.38\00:28:41.72
I was counseling
youth in Detroit.
00:28:41.75\00:28:43.39
We are doing a lot of things
00:28:43.42\00:28:44.75
but again I'm now a
self supporting pastor
00:28:44.79\00:28:47.56
so I have a lot of
people working for me.
00:28:47.59\00:28:49.02
We are in Detroit building
00:28:49.06\00:28:50.39
a huge storage
building for the Detroit News.
00:28:50.43\00:28:53.19
And so we are staying in a motel
00:28:53.23\00:28:54.73
because it's
four hours from home.
00:28:54.76\00:28:56.20
So one of my sons
or one of the employees
00:28:56.23\00:28:57.90
there he is
flipping through TV channels
00:28:57.93\00:28:59.77
at the motel like just
want to watch something
00:28:59.80\00:29:02.10
for an hour or two
before we go to bed.
00:29:02.14\00:29:04.47
And I say, hey, go
back to the other channel
00:29:04.51\00:29:06.51
there is a guy preaching there.
00:29:06.54\00:29:07.88
I didn't know who it
was and I had watched him
00:29:07.91\00:29:10.35
he swaggered in
number of TV evangelism.
00:29:10.38\00:29:11.98
I wasn't too impressed
00:29:12.01\00:29:13.35
but I'm a pastor
so I'm interested
00:29:13.38\00:29:14.72
in what is this guy have to say.
00:29:14.75\00:29:16.08
You know, TV evangelist
00:29:16.12\00:29:17.45
they got to be
secondary, you know.
00:29:17.49\00:29:19.85
So we flip back and
we want-- Secondary.
00:29:19.89\00:29:25.86
And I didn't know who he
was, he is Doug Batchelor
00:29:25.89\00:29:27.50
I'm like wow, this man
has really got the truth.
00:29:27.53\00:29:30.87
He is on target on everything
00:29:30.90\00:29:33.84
and the reason
this is significant,
00:29:33.87\00:29:35.30
I see God establishing
a platform of credibility
00:29:35.34\00:29:39.17
for the Adventist understanding
of the Bible in my life
00:29:39.21\00:29:42.84
because I pondered
this, boy, that was good.
00:29:42.88\00:29:44.85
Now you didn't know Doug
was an Seventh-day Adventist?
00:29:44.88\00:29:47.12
No, because I
said, I said, wonder
00:29:47.15\00:29:48.48
if what church he goes to.
00:29:48.52\00:29:49.85
And also I want to question,
you get all these brushes,
00:29:49.88\00:29:52.15
you got Desire of Ages,
you got the Maxwell books,
00:29:52.19\00:29:53.96
you got-- did
you had not connected
00:29:53.99\00:29:55.96
that Doug these
are all Adventism.
00:29:55.99\00:29:57.73
No I didn't know
who EG White was.
00:29:57.79\00:29:59.53
I was a type of
person I would pick up a book
00:29:59.56\00:30:01.20
and I would look at
the title I would read it
00:30:01.23\00:30:02.96
and I decided if it's good.
00:30:03.00\00:30:04.33
I didn't look at the author,
the forward, the introduction.
00:30:04.37\00:30:06.13
I just read the book.
00:30:06.17\00:30:07.50
So anyhow the interesting
thing is we watch Doug
00:30:07.54\00:30:10.54
I'm so impressed
like, wow, this man is good.
00:30:10.57\00:30:12.84
He is like-- I
could listen to this, man,
00:30:12.87\00:30:15.14
and I'm a pastor too.
00:30:15.18\00:30:16.51
So a couple of weeks
later coming home from work
00:30:16.54\00:30:18.71
there is a DVD on my desk
00:30:18.75\00:30:20.68
and I say, where
does this come from?
00:30:20.72\00:30:22.05
I picked up like,
00:30:22.08\00:30:23.42
there is no tag no sticker on it
00:30:23.45\00:30:25.12
and it said the Final
Events by Doug Batchelor.
00:30:25.15\00:30:28.06
I said, I watched this
guy on TV a few weeks ago.
00:30:28.09\00:30:30.43
I said, he is pretty
good, I'm gonna watch this DVD.
00:30:30.46\00:30:33.70
I didn't know, he was
Seventh-day Adventist.
00:30:33.73\00:30:35.90
I had since now
watched the Final Events again
00:30:35.93\00:30:39.53
and then amazed that
there is all this teaching
00:30:39.57\00:30:42.34
about the Sabbath on
there I never noticed that.
00:30:42.37\00:30:45.41
And again I
think I wasn't rating
00:30:45.44\00:30:46.91
God just kind of did this for me
00:30:46.94\00:30:49.44
and but I watched the DVD
00:30:49.48\00:30:51.85
and because I'm
interested in Final Events
00:30:51.88\00:30:53.68
and I have
concluded the Catholic Church
00:30:53.72\00:30:55.25
is the beast
power various things
00:30:55.28\00:30:57.45
and I troubled about the Sabbath
00:30:57.49\00:30:59.52
I'm really opened
to these kind of things
00:30:59.55\00:31:01.06
probably more than in
my Amish and now non-Amish.
00:31:01.09\00:31:04.33
It was a small
group of churches,
00:31:04.36\00:31:05.73
65 churches, 15,000 people
00:31:05.76\00:31:07.83
very strong mission
outreach, very conservative
00:31:07.86\00:31:10.00
but they are not Amish.
00:31:10.03\00:31:11.37
People think they are
Amish or Mennonite they are not,
00:31:11.40\00:31:12.73
they are from
mainstream America.
00:31:12.77\00:31:14.10
There are some Amish there
but they are very conservative
00:31:14.14\00:31:16.24
they would not approve of,
00:31:16.27\00:31:19.04
they don't approve
where we are at now but--
00:31:19.07\00:31:20.71
so that's my setting,
that's my background now.
00:31:20.74\00:31:23.51
But so I'm open to this
and so I watched this DVD
00:31:23.55\00:31:27.18
and I'm thinking, wow.
00:31:27.22\00:31:28.55
He also says the
devil will be burned up.
00:31:28.58\00:31:30.29
It says, he is mistaken there
00:31:30.32\00:31:31.65
but so I shared
it with my church
00:31:31.69\00:31:33.12
and said let's as a
church Sunday afternoon
00:31:33.15\00:31:34.89
we are gonna watch
the DVD it's very good.
00:31:34.92\00:31:36.42
It's about end times events
00:31:36.46\00:31:37.79
and I believe
it's the truth except
00:31:37.83\00:31:39.16
I want to give you a few,
you know, qualifiers here,
00:31:39.19\00:31:41.10
don't follow this and
this because he is off there.
00:31:41.13\00:31:44.83
We watched it or to
fast forward a year later
00:31:44.87\00:31:48.64
we are in the process
of moving to New Zealand
00:31:48.67\00:31:50.47
selling our business,
our rental properties,
00:31:50.51\00:31:52.87
closing the church down
because most of the church
00:31:52.91\00:31:54.58
is gonna follow
us to New Zealand.
00:31:54.61\00:31:55.94
We are gonna establish a church,
00:31:55.98\00:31:57.51
reach out as a Polynesian
natives there as Maori
00:31:57.55\00:32:00.85
on the south island
outside of Christ church
00:32:00.88\00:32:03.45
and we opened business there
00:32:03.49\00:32:05.82
and just continue
our church experience
00:32:05.85\00:32:07.69
but as a witness to the Maori
00:32:07.72\00:32:09.09
and there is many details,
miracles, crashing my plane
00:32:09.12\00:32:12.33
and other things
there that happened that
00:32:12.36\00:32:14.10
instrumental and
bringing to this place.
00:32:14.13\00:32:15.70
I crashed a small plane
00:32:15.73\00:32:17.07
and, yeah, I can't
go into those details
00:32:17.10\00:32:18.97
but what happened is
we get to New Zealand
00:32:19.00\00:32:20.94
we still haven't connected
00:32:20.97\00:32:22.30
that Doug
Batchelor is an Adventist
00:32:22.34\00:32:23.67
and we watched the
DVD probably a dozen times
00:32:23.71\00:32:25.64
then we noticed the Sabbath.
00:32:25.67\00:32:27.58
So my friend from New
Zealand is helping us coordinate
00:32:27.61\00:32:31.65
for my married son
needing a rental property
00:32:31.68\00:32:34.08
twice the rental
arrangement falls through.
00:32:34.12\00:32:36.25
So the third time he
says I've got something.
00:32:36.28\00:32:38.05
He said there is a neighbor
00:32:38.09\00:32:39.42
that's got a
small shipping container
00:32:39.45\00:32:40.79
he said they are
Seventh-day Adventist
00:32:40.82\00:32:42.16
but they are nice people.
00:32:42.19\00:32:43.73
The but in there is,
it was little humorous.
00:32:43.76\00:32:46.83
So I thought okay.
00:32:46.86\00:32:49.36
So we get there in New Zealand
00:32:49.40\00:32:51.73
and interesting
now a couple months
00:32:51.77\00:32:53.30
after there my son
and his wife have to move
00:32:53.34\00:32:55.50
and their second landlord
is Seventh-day Adventist.
00:32:55.54\00:32:58.01
So God keeps like--
00:32:58.04\00:33:00.84
and so we walk into
this shipping container
00:33:00.88\00:33:04.78
and I noticed
the TV up on the wall
00:33:04.81\00:33:06.18
with little table there
00:33:06.21\00:33:07.55
and there is a stack of
VHS tapes and things there.
00:33:07.58\00:33:10.09
So, you know, I'm
the father and I'm--
00:33:10.12\00:33:11.72
You know my son
is 22 he is married
00:33:11.75\00:33:13.69
he has a wife and a baby.
00:33:13.72\00:33:15.26
And they are living
in a shipping container?
00:33:15.29\00:33:17.23
Yeah, it's very nice.
00:33:17.26\00:33:18.59
It's fixed for living
quarters like a temporary,
00:33:18.63\00:33:20.80
you know, transitional thing.
00:33:20.83\00:33:22.80
So I decided I
got to see what's here
00:33:22.83\00:33:24.33
because probably he
is gonna watch these
00:33:24.37\00:33:26.10
just out of curiosity.
00:33:26.13\00:33:27.47
I want to make sure it's
some that won't take him,
00:33:27.50\00:33:28.87
you know, off somewhere.
00:33:28.90\00:33:30.24
So I walk over there and
I life the first VHS tapes
00:33:30.27\00:33:32.24
is like Doug Batchelor.
00:33:32.27\00:33:34.44
The next one Doug Batchelor.
00:33:34.48\00:33:35.81
Every single one
is Doug Batchelor
00:33:35.84\00:33:37.18
and I just kind of like,
00:33:37.21\00:33:38.68
he must be a
Seventh-day Adventist.
00:33:38.71\00:33:40.42
I was so disappointed.
00:33:40.45\00:33:41.92
How can a man who
can preach like that
00:33:41.95\00:33:43.52
be a Seventh-day Adventist?
00:33:43.55\00:33:46.42
I accused them, I
thought they are cult,
00:33:46.45\00:33:48.42
they are legalistic,
they are Old Testament
00:33:48.46\00:33:50.09
because never had a dialogue
00:33:50.13\00:33:51.46
until with the
Seventh-day Adventist
00:33:51.49\00:33:53.36
until a few weeks before we move
00:33:53.40\00:33:54.83
to New Zealand in 2009
and that Seventh-day Adventist
00:33:54.86\00:34:00.24
who is not as nervous by blood
as he probably should have been
00:34:00.27\00:34:03.10
and I kind of backed him to
a corner on number of things
00:34:03.14\00:34:05.54
and felt very
triumphant that see
00:34:05.57\00:34:07.48
these guys
don't know their Bible
00:34:07.51\00:34:09.28
and they are legalist
living in the Old Testament,
00:34:09.31\00:34:11.98
Jesus is my Sabbath et cetera.
00:34:12.01\00:34:14.05
Now I have a problem.
00:34:14.08\00:34:15.55
A man I highly
respect and loveless
00:34:15.58\00:34:17.49
until he is
Seventh-day Adventist.
00:34:17.52\00:34:19.55
And so I decided to tell
my son don't watch these.
00:34:19.59\00:34:22.99
I thought, you
know, if I tell him that
00:34:23.02\00:34:24.36
he is gonna watch
them for sheer curiosity.
00:34:24.39\00:34:27.00
So I thought, I just
leave I will just pray.
00:34:27.03\00:34:28.93
So I go to, where
we are staying out,
00:34:28.96\00:34:30.33
I'm unpacking my
boxes about a week later,
00:34:30.37\00:34:32.27
we took 17 banana boxes of books
00:34:32.30\00:34:34.30
and some personal items
otherwise we sold everything.
00:34:34.34\00:34:37.21
We start in New
Zealand my phone rings.
00:34:37.24\00:34:39.71
He is my son, he said, hey, dad,
00:34:39.74\00:34:41.48
I have been watching
these tapes and I'm like--
00:34:41.51\00:34:44.78
I just kind of
interrupt him like,
00:34:44.81\00:34:46.15
yeah, they are
legalist, they don't understand
00:34:46.18\00:34:48.32
the Bible and grace
and he interrupts me again.
00:34:48.35\00:34:50.89
He says, dad, he
said, don't judge them
00:34:50.92\00:34:52.99
until you listen to
him which was sound advice.
00:34:53.02\00:34:56.42
He said, could
we bring them over.
00:34:56.46\00:34:57.79
I thought well, yeah, it
will be safer to watch them
00:34:57.83\00:34:59.43
in our living
room then by himself.
00:34:59.46\00:35:01.16
Yeah.
00:35:01.20\00:35:02.53
I'm the veteran, I'm the pastor,
00:35:02.56\00:35:03.90
I'm, you know, stable.
00:35:03.93\00:35:05.27
And so they bring them over
00:35:05.30\00:35:06.70
and I thought I'm
gonna ready to do battle.
00:35:06.74\00:35:08.37
I have my Bible on my
knee, we will stop this thing
00:35:08.40\00:35:10.47
if I need to
contradict something
00:35:10.51\00:35:12.37
but I was, I kind of
had a bad feeling like
00:35:12.41\00:35:14.61
this is Doug Batchelor.
00:35:14.64\00:35:17.38
And I thought, you
know, well, watch it.
00:35:17.41\00:35:21.15
Oh, and before this happening,
00:35:21.18\00:35:22.52
I'm sorry, before this happening
00:35:22.55\00:35:23.89
before the phone call
00:35:23.92\00:35:25.25
just that day I
was unpacking stuff.
00:35:25.29\00:35:26.62
I turned to my wife and I said
00:35:26.65\00:35:27.99
I thought we had thrown
away the National Sunday Law
00:35:28.02\00:35:30.86
and the Ten
Commandments Twice Removed.
00:35:30.89\00:35:32.23
It caused so much
turmoil there was a question
00:35:32.26\00:35:33.73
it wasn't settled but
here I'm them in my books.
00:35:33.76\00:35:36.83
I said, you
know, what I'm gonna do
00:35:36.87\00:35:38.30
we don't have any business here
as far as it's not established,
00:35:38.33\00:35:41.74
yet the church
is not established,
00:35:41.77\00:35:43.10
yet we are waiting on the
visa because of my hand issues.
00:35:43.14\00:35:45.17
I have a missing
finger, I had an accident.
00:35:45.21\00:35:47.18
The government lock things down
00:35:47.21\00:35:49.81
and I said, you
know, what I'm gonna do,
00:35:49.84\00:35:51.18
I'm gonna take these two
books and I'm gonna read them
00:35:51.21\00:35:53.45
paragraph by
paragraph and every reference
00:35:53.48\00:35:55.58
to any Bible verse or
truth I'm gonna research
00:35:55.62\00:35:57.49
everything pertained to that
00:35:57.52\00:35:58.85
and I'm gonna get to the bottom
00:35:58.89\00:36:00.22
of this question
for once and for all.
00:36:00.26\00:36:01.59
That's a dangerous
thing you are doing.
00:36:01.62\00:36:03.29
I'm on the
bottom side of the earth
00:36:03.32\00:36:05.29
and it doesn't matter
what anybody is saying
00:36:05.33\00:36:07.63
and we are here alone I
mean, just a small group
00:36:07.66\00:36:10.33
and I knew that I could come out
00:36:10.37\00:36:11.70
on the right side of
issue, I just needed some time.
00:36:11.73\00:36:13.47
Now I've got time.
00:36:13.50\00:36:14.84
I'm not running a business,
I'm not fostering children,
00:36:14.87\00:36:16.74
I'm not
pastoring to church per say
00:36:16.77\00:36:18.61
we are just getting established.
00:36:18.64\00:36:19.97
I'm gonna, you know, develop
this conviction and settle it.
00:36:20.01\00:36:24.11
So when I said that is
when this phone call came.
00:36:24.15\00:36:27.95
So here we are
and I'm just like,
00:36:27.98\00:36:30.79
I'm on a losing
side of a battle here.
00:36:30.82\00:36:33.36
We watched the
DVDs or the VHS tapes
00:36:33.39\00:36:35.56
and I got privately
satisfied that is the truth
00:36:35.59\00:36:39.03
and we just wept our
way through the next,
00:36:39.06\00:36:41.86
the next weeks and even month.
00:36:41.90\00:36:43.53
I studied and then just
laid aside all the tapes.
00:36:43.57\00:36:46.03
I said, I need to
see this for myself
00:36:46.07\00:36:47.60
not just take his for it
00:36:47.64\00:36:48.97
and though he
was quoting the Bible
00:36:49.00\00:36:50.34
and all these things
and it took us a long time
00:36:50.37\00:36:53.84
to integrated into our
life being willing for the--
00:36:53.88\00:36:57.65
Having left the Amish in 2001
00:36:57.68\00:37:01.35
there was an
extreme amount of shunning
00:37:01.38\00:37:03.45
and I knew that leaving the--
00:37:03.49\00:37:05.69
We call them charity
churches that setting.
00:37:05.72\00:37:07.86
There won't be the
same level of shunning
00:37:07.89\00:37:09.62
but still a definite
cutting off, still a barrier.
00:37:09.66\00:37:13.03
And it was a strange as from--
00:37:13.06\00:37:15.23
I've about 4000 living relatives
00:37:15.26\00:37:17.27
from grandparents
downward from my first wife,
00:37:17.30\00:37:20.40
my second wife
here and my own family.
00:37:20.44\00:37:22.94
There is about 4,000 people
00:37:22.97\00:37:24.31
just from my
grandparents downward.
00:37:24.34\00:37:27.64
It's a huge family
and I knew we kind of be
00:37:27.68\00:37:29.38
cut off friends but
we made the decision
00:37:29.41\00:37:32.41
then to embrace these truths
00:37:32.45\00:37:34.62
and somehow ask God
to help us work it out
00:37:34.65\00:37:36.65
to where we felt that we
are gonna be all alone again
00:37:36.69\00:37:39.19
and of course there is
00:37:39.22\00:37:40.62
17 or 18 million
Adventist brothers and sisters.
00:37:40.66\00:37:43.02
Were you aware of the
size of the Adventist church
00:37:43.06\00:37:44.63
at that point of time?
00:37:44.66\00:37:46.39
So you were just kind
of taking a leap out there.
00:37:46.43\00:37:48.80
Define shunning for us.
00:37:48.83\00:37:50.47
Okay, in the Amish culture
00:37:50.50\00:37:52.83
just real simply the
shunning in excommunication is,
00:37:52.87\00:37:58.11
it can be for things
that are clearly assumed
00:37:58.14\00:38:00.81
from the Bible like say,
drunkenness or fornication
00:38:00.84\00:38:03.51
or, you know,
those kind of things
00:38:03.55\00:38:05.75
but they will
even use the shunning
00:38:05.78\00:38:07.82
even if it is just a
departure from the lifestyle
00:38:07.85\00:38:10.19
which was our case.
00:38:10.22\00:38:11.92
And the effect of the shunning
00:38:11.95\00:38:13.29
is supposed to
produce repentance and sorrow
00:38:13.32\00:38:15.92
and because you are cut off
00:38:15.96\00:38:17.29
and separated it will
make you want to come back.
00:38:17.33\00:38:20.13
It's kind of like the thread
of a whip will bring you back.
00:38:20.16\00:38:24.00
They would not eat
together at the same table
00:38:24.03\00:38:27.64
and there is
different levels of shunning
00:38:27.67\00:38:29.14
but usually you would not
eat sitting at the same table,
00:38:29.17\00:38:31.87
sometimes not even
out of the same dishes.
00:38:31.91\00:38:33.88
Like if you have
a bowl of potatoes
00:38:33.91\00:38:35.34
you would have a second
bowl for the shun members
00:38:35.38\00:38:37.31
and they sit at
a separate table.
00:38:37.35\00:38:38.98
We had a sister involved
00:38:39.01\00:38:40.48
who wanted us to
stay at her place,
00:38:40.52\00:38:41.85
she couldn't invite us but
we kind of invited ourself,
00:38:41.88\00:38:43.79
we knew they wanted us there.
00:38:43.82\00:38:45.52
They put two
tables set up two tables
00:38:45.55\00:38:47.72
they put them an
inch and half apart
00:38:47.76\00:38:49.26
so they are not
violating the shunning.
00:38:49.29\00:38:51.29
They are not-- we
are not at the same table
00:38:51.33\00:38:52.93
we are sitting at this one table
00:38:52.96\00:38:54.30
they are sitting at the other
00:38:54.33\00:38:55.66
and it's an inch and half apart.
00:38:55.70\00:38:57.03
We also would never travel like
in the same vehicle together.
00:38:57.07\00:39:00.44
We wouldn't do any business
00:39:00.47\00:39:02.04
like you couldn't
sell me you horse,
00:39:02.07\00:39:03.41
I couldn't buy a
piece of furniture,
00:39:03.44\00:39:05.34
you know, that kind
of level of shunning.
00:39:05.37\00:39:07.51
Visiting usually is okay
as long as it centers around
00:39:07.54\00:39:11.78
physical, materialistic
things but not spiritual things,
00:39:11.81\00:39:14.22
you know, discussed.
00:39:14.25\00:39:15.58
So when you have family
00:39:15.62\00:39:18.19
gets together
how does that work?
00:39:18.22\00:39:20.62
Very good question.
00:39:20.66\00:39:22.02
They are not
allowed to invite us
00:39:22.06\00:39:23.63
to any gathering at all.
00:39:23.66\00:39:25.29
Now funerals we are allowed
00:39:25.33\00:39:26.80
to show up and be at a funeral
00:39:26.83\00:39:28.70
but they will set us
apart in separate places
00:39:28.73\00:39:30.60
and feed us in
different food area.
00:39:30.63\00:39:33.27
But and it's one of the things
00:39:33.30\00:39:35.50
that has been real
hard for my mother,
00:39:35.54\00:39:36.97
my father and
mother also left the Amish
00:39:37.01\00:39:38.91
and are also shunned.
00:39:38.94\00:39:40.54
They are not Adventist,
00:39:40.58\00:39:41.91
we are the only
ones in our entire family
00:39:41.94\00:39:43.55
that's Adventist
expect for my married son.
00:39:43.58\00:39:46.38
But my mother and
father are 74 and 76,
00:39:46.41\00:39:49.05
they have 99
grandchildren, 100--
00:39:49.08\00:39:52.19
I'm sorry 60 some
great grandchildren
00:39:52.22\00:39:54.06
and grandchildren
are getting married
00:39:54.09\00:39:55.46
they are not allowed
to come to the wedding.
00:39:55.49\00:39:57.09
So that's a very
real heartbreak for them.
00:39:57.13\00:39:58.46
They aren't allowed.
00:39:58.49\00:39:59.83
In fact, my brother
and sister who are twins
00:39:59.86\00:40:02.03
that the sister said to
my brother as he left Amish
00:40:02.06\00:40:05.03
I don't want to
ever see you again,
00:40:05.07\00:40:06.47
don't want to ever
hear from you again.
00:40:06.50\00:40:07.84
She had tears
running down her face.
00:40:07.87\00:40:09.20
She thought it was
her duty to complete this,
00:40:09.24\00:40:11.54
you know,
shunning excommunication.
00:40:11.57\00:40:13.98
However they've
since been more open
00:40:14.01\00:40:16.24
to at least have us
come visit to be there
00:40:16.28\00:40:18.81
but we can't interact on
any kind of spiritual level.
00:40:18.85\00:40:21.72
Now we got to move along
00:40:21.75\00:40:23.08
because first of all
it is a riveting story
00:40:23.12\00:40:24.69
and this could easily
be two hour sort of saga.
00:40:24.72\00:40:29.06
You are in New Zealand,
00:40:29.09\00:40:32.39
the Lord is
brining all this value.
00:40:32.43\00:40:34.43
Are you with your first wife?
00:40:34.46\00:40:36.36
No, my first wife
had already passed.
00:40:36.40\00:40:38.23
Already passed and you already
lost the son by that time.
00:40:38.27\00:40:40.74
Now walk us
through that very quickly.
00:40:40.77\00:40:42.10
Okay. Yeah.
00:40:42.14\00:40:45.04
Very difficult to do
00:40:45.07\00:40:46.51
because it's of
all the various details
00:40:46.54\00:40:49.24
there is so many details
00:40:49.28\00:40:50.61
I'll just have to
make this really short.
00:40:50.65\00:40:53.98
In-- I'm sorry 1986
when we first married
00:40:54.02\00:40:58.22
my first wife and
I in March 14th 1986
00:40:58.25\00:41:01.56
within 11 months
less than a year later
00:41:01.59\00:41:04.76
she developed this condition.
00:41:04.79\00:41:06.13
We didn't know
what was going on.
00:41:06.16\00:41:07.50
She had this
numbness, this tingling
00:41:07.53\00:41:08.86
on the right side of her face.
00:41:08.90\00:41:10.33
It spreads to her entire body
but it was a gradual process.
00:41:10.37\00:41:12.87
It wasn't like a stroke
00:41:12.90\00:41:14.24
where you just
instantly you are numb.
00:41:14.27\00:41:16.00
We spent three years
and many, many dollars
00:41:16.04\00:41:20.01
trying to figure
out what's going on.
00:41:20.04\00:41:21.71
They eventually had
diagnoses from Mayo Clinic
00:41:21.74\00:41:24.51
it's multiple sclerosis
and she was wheelchair bound
00:41:24.55\00:41:27.98
that was in the first six months
00:41:28.02\00:41:29.35
of this issue developing.
00:41:29.38\00:41:30.92
She was later
through real meditation units
00:41:30.95\00:41:33.05
able to do some
walking with the walker
00:41:33.09\00:41:35.12
just for little bit
but then what's the word,
00:41:35.16\00:41:39.23
it was not really in remission
but it had slow down some
00:41:39.26\00:41:42.83
but then it
actually got worse again.
00:41:42.86\00:41:44.67
she was on a
wheelchair the rest of her life
00:41:44.70\00:41:46.37
and due to complications
because of the wheelchair use
00:41:46.40\00:41:49.54
the scoliosis from the leaning
on the armrest her backbone
00:41:49.57\00:41:53.17
pneumonia set in at one point
and she passed away from that.
00:41:53.21\00:41:58.85
There were so many
details relating to her passing.
00:41:58.88\00:42:01.38
The last week of her life,
00:42:01.42\00:42:03.32
she was two and half
weeks in the hospital,
00:42:03.35\00:42:04.72
she had lot of visions
00:42:04.75\00:42:06.22
and things that the
Lord revealed to her.
00:42:06.25\00:42:09.22
At one point even
telling me that she was shown
00:42:09.26\00:42:12.16
that there will be
another death in the community
00:42:12.19\00:42:15.13
and she didn't say in our family
00:42:15.16\00:42:16.77
but so she said I
see this young boy,
00:42:16.80\00:42:20.44
he is about five
or six years old,
00:42:20.47\00:42:22.04
he looks like someone
in my side of the family
00:42:22.07\00:42:25.27
but I can't see who it
is, I can't tell who it is.
00:42:25.31\00:42:28.24
Our younger son was one year old
00:42:28.28\00:42:29.91
when she passed away, he
was six when he was killed.
00:42:29.94\00:42:32.58
So it brings a lot
larger glimpse of my son
00:42:32.61\00:42:35.45
at the time of his passing.
00:42:35.48\00:42:36.95
And so that when
my son was killed
00:42:36.99\00:42:39.45
five years later
at the age of six
00:42:39.49\00:42:42.29
we were
comforted to realize that
00:42:42.32\00:42:43.89
God already knew that
00:42:43.93\00:42:46.36
and we know God knows
every end from every beginning
00:42:46.39\00:42:48.20
but there was a fire
accident where my son was killed
00:42:48.23\00:42:50.63
but in my wife's
passing there was a number
00:42:50.67\00:42:53.00
very profound, very
amazing things that happened,
00:42:53.03\00:42:56.34
she actually named
Katie as the person
00:42:56.37\00:42:58.67
who will take her place
00:42:58.71\00:43:00.31
which I strongly resisted
God did some miraculous things
00:43:00.34\00:43:03.24
to bring us together.
00:43:03.28\00:43:05.18
Even I believe an
angel at our door.
00:43:05.21\00:43:08.65
You want me to tell
the story, you have--
00:43:08.68\00:43:12.25
There are so many facets to
this, it's a fabulous story.
00:43:12.29\00:43:15.62
We've got to get you
into the Adventist church
00:43:15.66\00:43:17.49
and back to the United States
so we got to make this round,
00:43:17.53\00:43:20.66
we got to make
this great leap, man.
00:43:20.70\00:43:22.23
Okay, go for it.
00:43:22.26\00:43:25.07
Just so much here but
you are in New Zealand,
00:43:25.10\00:43:31.84
the whole Adventist thing,
00:43:31.87\00:43:33.58
the Lord has
been tracking you down
00:43:33.61\00:43:34.94
and He has pretty
much got your attention
00:43:34.98\00:43:36.41
now He has caught you.
00:43:36.44\00:43:37.78
Get us back to the States
and to what you are doing,
00:43:37.81\00:43:39.81
what you are doing now?
00:43:39.85\00:43:41.32
Yeah. Well.
00:43:41.35\00:43:43.08
Yeah. Well.
00:43:43.12\00:43:44.95
That's what we are saying. Yeah.
00:43:44.99\00:43:47.89
Well, after we
embraced the truth
00:43:47.92\00:43:50.73
as the Adventist believer
at one point I kept saying
00:43:50.76\00:43:52.69
that Adventist
truths and I then I realize
00:43:52.73\00:43:54.16
this is not the Adventist
truth it's the Bible truth
00:43:54.20\00:43:56.03
as the Adventist understand it.
00:43:56.06\00:43:57.40
Well, said.
00:43:57.43\00:43:59.60
We ponder, what are we gonna do,
00:43:59.63\00:44:01.87
here we have these people
00:44:01.90\00:44:03.24
because besides
my son and his family
00:44:03.27\00:44:04.61
there was another
family had already arrived
00:44:04.64\00:44:06.31
and there was more coming
00:44:06.34\00:44:09.04
and many of these are
gonna work in our business
00:44:09.08\00:44:11.11
and just help us and again
00:44:11.15\00:44:12.48
we were like self
supporting pastors.
00:44:12.51\00:44:14.42
So we talked to the
others that were there
00:44:14.45\00:44:18.15
and we encourage them
to watch these DVDs with us
00:44:18.19\00:44:20.79
and they agreed to.
00:44:20.82\00:44:22.16
The one family there,
00:44:22.19\00:44:23.73
the husband was
basically persuaded,
00:44:23.76\00:44:26.23
he was wrestling, struggling.
00:44:26.26\00:44:28.16
One night he
struggled and prayed
00:44:28.20\00:44:29.73
till three
o'clock in the morning.
00:44:29.76\00:44:31.30
His wife in his own
words finally convinced him
00:44:31.33\00:44:35.04
that he is being deceived,
he needs to just get clear this
00:44:35.07\00:44:39.17
and get rid of this whole idea.
00:44:39.21\00:44:41.24
So what happed is
we became estranged
00:44:41.28\00:44:43.24
from our church I guess
00:44:43.28\00:44:45.51
and so I realize
that this is gonna work.
00:44:45.55\00:44:48.05
I could have--
we could have stayed
00:44:48.08\00:44:49.42
in New Zealand
00:44:49.45\00:44:50.92
and we had some friends
there who were helping us.
00:44:50.95\00:44:52.92
I never went to an
Adventist church in New Zealand.
00:44:52.95\00:44:55.19
The place where we at was quite
remote in Canterbury District
00:44:55.22\00:44:57.96
and there were some
Adventist in the area
00:44:57.99\00:44:59.76
but there was only few couples
00:44:59.79\00:45:01.13
and so we met for
Bible studies and things.
00:45:01.16\00:45:02.76
We are very new, we
were still resisting
00:45:02.80\00:45:04.97
the Spirit of
Prophecy like a woman a prophet
00:45:05.00\00:45:07.87
and yet I saw the ratings.
00:45:07.90\00:45:09.84
We were resisting
the health message,
00:45:09.87\00:45:11.34
no one is gonna take my meat,
00:45:11.37\00:45:12.71
Jesus ate fish
that kind of thing.
00:45:12.74\00:45:17.55
So we realized that
00:45:17.58\00:45:21.48
something is got to change here
00:45:21.52\00:45:22.85
so we talked to
our friends there.
00:45:22.88\00:45:24.22
We said, you know,
I have a lot of family
00:45:24.25\00:45:26.82
and a lot of
friends back in the States
00:45:26.86\00:45:28.99
and I would love to go
00:45:29.02\00:45:30.36
and in my think I'm thinking
I'll just go and explain
00:45:30.39\00:45:33.29
or just study through this
00:45:33.33\00:45:34.86
and they will just
see this like we did.
00:45:34.90\00:45:37.17
I should have know better
because when we left the Amish
00:45:37.20\00:45:38.93
we too thought then
that we would just explain
00:45:38.97\00:45:41.57
what salvation is really about.
00:45:41.60\00:45:42.94
It's not about being Amish
00:45:42.97\00:45:44.31
it's about having
your name in Jesus' hands
00:45:44.34\00:45:45.74
not in the church register.
00:45:45.77\00:45:48.28
So they said, no, I
said, we'll just go back.
00:45:48.31\00:45:52.28
You don't have to move your,
you know, you're a leader here
00:45:52.31\00:45:54.48
you kind of
coordinated this whole thing.
00:45:54.52\00:45:56.65
And so I said, no, I
really have a burden to go back.
00:45:56.69\00:45:59.79
I feel like the Lord
is telling us to go back
00:45:59.82\00:46:01.46
and I can't go into
the details of the events
00:46:01.49\00:46:04.19
how God had the
airlines on our tickets
00:46:04.23\00:46:07.90
that were six months old
or five months at that point
00:46:07.93\00:46:11.53
old for a six month
from coming in departure
00:46:11.57\00:46:14.77
as supposed to be a round trip
00:46:14.80\00:46:17.11
but you only use it one way
if you are gonna stay there.
00:46:17.14\00:46:18.87
We were gonna stay there.
00:46:18.91\00:46:20.24
So you are supposed to call
00:46:20.28\00:46:21.61
to be more than 30
days, you know, back.
00:46:21.64\00:46:23.65
And then like, at first
like we will give You a credit
00:46:23.68\00:46:25.61
and it was like we will
give You a bigger credit.
00:46:25.65\00:46:26.98
Finally like and
I kept praying like
00:46:27.02\00:46:28.78
Lord, if You want us to
go back make a clear signal.
00:46:28.82\00:46:31.09
And all of a sudden she is like,
00:46:31.12\00:46:32.45
you know, we are gonna give
you your whole family's tickets
00:46:32.49\00:46:34.12
the whole thing
back it's like $15,000.
00:46:34.16\00:46:36.26
Wow. I said, wow.
00:46:36.29\00:46:37.96
So God brought us back.
00:46:37.99\00:46:39.69
We had so many experiences
00:46:39.73\00:46:41.06
I will really try
to answer your question
00:46:41.10\00:46:43.53
this is so
profound, I get so excited
00:46:43.57\00:46:45.37
about this part of my struggle.
00:46:45.40\00:46:46.74
We came back and the
local newspaper editor,
00:46:46.77\00:46:50.31
religious editor of
Ludington, Michigan,
00:46:50.34\00:46:52.41
it's a small town paper
about 18,000 homes it goes to.
00:46:52.44\00:46:55.54
We are good
friends, we had to work
00:46:55.58\00:46:56.91
for him like three
times, doing the rough,
00:46:56.95\00:46:58.85
doing the garage various things
so we are friends besides,
00:46:58.88\00:47:01.42
you know, I know he
is a religious editor,
00:47:01.45\00:47:03.79
he knows I was a pastor
00:47:03.82\00:47:05.15
and he knew we had
gone to New Zealand.
00:47:05.19\00:47:06.52
He said, why did
you go to New Zealand?
00:47:06.55\00:47:08.12
I said, I just want to put an ad
00:47:08.16\00:47:09.49
in the paper that we are back
00:47:09.52\00:47:10.86
and we are open for
business again in six months
00:47:10.89\00:47:12.83
because we've been well
known throughout the state
00:47:12.86\00:47:14.30
in many, many, many
jobs, many careers working.
00:47:14.33\00:47:18.33
So he is like, oh,
this sounds like a story.
00:47:18.37\00:47:20.37
I said, oh, I'm not
looking for a story.
00:47:20.40\00:47:22.07
We had been in the
paper like seven times,
00:47:22.10\00:47:23.44
when my wife died,
when my son was killed,
00:47:23.47\00:47:25.37
when we started
the church there,
00:47:25.41\00:47:26.74
we had baptisms,
when I crashed my plane,
00:47:26.78\00:47:28.94
there is all these
things that happened
00:47:28.98\00:47:30.31
we are front page news so.
00:47:30.35\00:47:31.98
Here he is want to
put us in the paper again.
00:47:32.01\00:47:34.48
He says, yeah, I'm gonna
come out listen to your story.
00:47:34.52\00:47:36.79
He did a full front
page and another full page
00:47:36.82\00:47:39.69
at the back about
Amish rebel leaves country,
00:47:39.72\00:47:43.69
comes back Seventh-day Adventist
00:47:43.73\00:47:45.33
and he quoted Doug Batchelor,
he quoted the books like
00:47:45.36\00:47:48.30
Ten Commandments
Twice Removed, he explained
00:47:48.33\00:47:52.10
a lot of the basic
doctrines in the articles.
00:47:52.13\00:47:54.77
Talked about the VHS
tapes we watched by Doug.
00:47:54.80\00:47:58.01
I started getting phone calls.
00:47:58.04\00:47:59.57
Okay, I saw your
article in the paper,
00:47:59.61\00:48:01.38
can we have that set of
DVDs that you are talking about.
00:48:01.41\00:48:03.81
Can we have that book,
00:48:03.85\00:48:05.18
where do I get the
books you are refereeing to?
00:48:05.21\00:48:07.05
And handed out hundreds
of DVDs and books and things.
00:48:07.08\00:48:10.39
And the other thing
that happened there is,
00:48:10.42\00:48:12.85
you know, I'm a
businessman at that time
00:48:12.89\00:48:14.66
I'm working construction
and I go into a lumber yard,
00:48:14.69\00:48:18.33
I just want to
pick up a few things
00:48:18.36\00:48:19.69
and I'm preaching
through Revelation seminars,
00:48:19.73\00:48:21.26
a local Adventist
pastor at that point
00:48:21.30\00:48:22.86
had me preach the
Revelation seminar
00:48:22.90\00:48:25.23
and I just
answered a simple question.
00:48:25.27\00:48:26.94
I started show about
Daniel and Revelation
00:48:26.97\00:48:28.64
and within a couple
minutes 11 people gathered
00:48:28.67\00:48:31.51
and for 30 minutes I just share
about Revelation and Daniel.
00:48:31.54\00:48:34.81
And the same way at the
bank, I'm making deposit
00:48:34.84\00:48:36.68
and teller ask if we
were sick, I said, no,
00:48:36.71\00:48:38.48
but this time we are vegetarian.
00:48:38.51\00:48:39.85
We are vegan we don't get sick.
00:48:39.88\00:48:41.72
And just like, wow,
so there is a whole line
00:48:41.75\00:48:43.59
of people all the tellers,
two of the loan officers
00:48:43.62\00:48:45.75
God just ordained these things.
00:48:45.79\00:48:47.49
From there we ended up
00:48:47.52\00:48:49.22
going on
mission trips to Mexico,
00:48:49.26\00:48:51.03
to India, Thailand, Cambodia
working with in the evangelism
00:48:51.06\00:48:55.00
the director of
Southeast Asia Missions,
00:48:55.03\00:48:57.33
Doug Venn is a personal friend
of ours, very good friend.
00:48:57.37\00:48:59.87
Fourteen
countries, a billion people
00:48:59.90\00:49:01.87
we have gone to
various countries like that
00:49:01.90\00:49:03.61
building schools,
churches, helping at schools,
00:49:03.64\00:49:06.31
doing preaching seminars,
00:49:06.34\00:49:07.68
we are in the
Philippines just recently
00:49:07.71\00:49:09.48
for ten night
seminar where dozen scores
00:49:09.51\00:49:13.15
of people converted
to Christ and Adventism
00:49:13.18\00:49:15.68
were baptized into
the church there and.
00:49:15.72\00:49:17.85
So I don't want to just go on
00:49:17.89\00:49:19.95
if you have another
question but that's--
00:49:19.99\00:49:21.32
Yeah, just no, I'm fascinated
00:49:21.36\00:49:24.43
and we are both
kind of lockdown here
00:49:24.46\00:49:26.23
because it such
an exciting story.
00:49:26.26\00:49:28.00
And the punch line is
that all of this has happened
00:49:28.03\00:49:31.10
within the last
ten years or less.
00:49:31.13\00:49:32.97
Five, six, about
five and half years.
00:49:33.00\00:49:34.34
About five and half years.
00:49:34.37\00:49:35.70
Yes, so God has moved
you along extremely rapidly
00:49:35.74\00:49:38.61
and give you a
wealth of experiences.
00:49:38.64\00:49:40.81
Meanwhile you
picked up a new wife
00:49:40.84\00:49:42.81
in the bargain and
you are pastoring now.
00:49:42.84\00:49:46.21
Yeah, talk to us
just a little bit about
00:49:46.25\00:49:47.88
what you are doing,
what's happening right now?
00:49:47.92\00:49:49.82
All right, we
actually got connected
00:49:49.85\00:49:52.55
where is a church in
Washington that had one,
00:49:52.59\00:49:55.62
there is out of
300,000 Amish people
00:49:55.66\00:49:57.69
we don't know of, we
didn't know of anyone
00:49:57.73\00:50:00.13
who had formally been
Amish and embraced Adventism
00:50:00.16\00:50:03.77
but through a
friend in North Carolina
00:50:03.80\00:50:05.23
we found out about this former
Amish couple in Washington
00:50:05.27\00:50:09.37
that helped start
and organize a church
00:50:09.40\00:50:11.81
in Lone Lake, Washington
00:50:11.84\00:50:13.44
and so they put
us in touch with them
00:50:13.48\00:50:16.08
and as far as we
know our two families
00:50:16.11\00:50:18.65
and now a third
family in Ohio, Andy Weaver
00:50:18.68\00:50:21.08
and his wife Naomi
are the only three--
00:50:21.12\00:50:23.95
I'm sorry there's
just been a fourth family
00:50:23.99\00:50:26.09
that has come out of the
Amish and joined Adventism.
00:50:26.12\00:50:29.22
So we were baptized by immersion
00:50:29.26\00:50:30.99
even though after my
initial Amish baptism
00:50:31.03\00:50:34.36
the sprinkle which I
was a rebel at the time,
00:50:34.40\00:50:36.83
I was later
immersed in Lake Michigan
00:50:36.87\00:50:39.07
as a very sincere
born again believer
00:50:39.10\00:50:42.44
but it was a
Sunday keeping church
00:50:42.47\00:50:44.21
and when I embraced Adventism
00:50:44.24\00:50:45.57
I said, you know, kind
of like the disciples that
00:50:45.61\00:50:47.48
didn't even hear
about the Holy Spirit.
00:50:47.51\00:50:48.94
I said, I was
baptized in nine commandments
00:50:48.98\00:50:51.68
I didn't know there was a--
00:50:51.71\00:50:53.52
And so we were
baptized by immersion
00:50:53.55\00:50:55.65
by the leaders
of the church there
00:50:55.68\00:50:57.35
and since then I have
been brought into an eldership
00:50:57.39\00:50:59.52
and just helping the pastor.
00:50:59.55\00:51:01.26
And so we've also been
very involved in contributing
00:51:01.29\00:51:04.96
and distributing
funds, literature
00:51:04.99\00:51:07.23
and doing the
short term mission trips
00:51:07.26\00:51:09.30
under various umbrellas.
00:51:09.33\00:51:10.67
Jesus for Asia,
Jon Wood an Adventist
00:51:10.70\00:51:13.34
from Tennessee has his ministry
00:51:13.37\00:51:14.97
where they did
these trips overseas.
00:51:15.00\00:51:16.94
We help fund Bible
workers, we go on these trips
00:51:16.97\00:51:19.41
help build school, churches,
and preaching seminars.
00:51:19.44\00:51:21.81
God has given you a
very, very unique ministry
00:51:21.84\00:51:24.61
and He has painted in
very, very, broad brush
00:51:24.65\00:51:29.25
so it's branded so
much that, you know--
00:51:29.28\00:51:32.95
and so should you like to
make contact with Pastor Kenneth
00:51:32.99\00:51:35.69
and his wife Katie
who didn't get a chance
00:51:35.72\00:51:37.66
to talk too much today
but she actually does talk
00:51:37.69\00:51:39.96
and talks very
well when she does so.
00:51:40.00\00:51:42.00
So if you want to make contact,
00:51:42.03\00:51:43.37
have them come to your
church or to your group,
00:51:43.40\00:51:45.40
may be to a young people to talk
00:51:45.43\00:51:46.80
here's how you
can do precisely that.
00:51:46.84\00:51:52.21
If you would like
to contact Ken Helmuth
00:51:52.24\00:51:54.41
to learn more
about his testimony
00:51:54.44\00:51:56.14
you can write to,
Ken Helmuth, 4105,
00:51:56.18\00:51:59.75
East Springdale-Hunters Road,
Springdale, Washington, 99173.
00:51:59.78\00:52:05.45
That's Ken Helmuth, 4105,
East Springdale-Hunters Road,
00:52:05.49\00:52:09.99
Springdale, Washington, 99173.
00:52:10.03\00:52:13.76
You can call 509-262-8213,
00:52:13.80\00:52:18.60
that's 509-262-8213
00:52:18.63\00:52:22.64
or you can email him at
kennethhelmuth@rocketmail.com
00:52:22.67\00:52:27.24
that's
kennethhelmuth@rocketmail.com.
00:52:27.28\00:52:30.75