Participants:
Series Code: TDY
Program Code: TDY210022A
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01:01 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Today.
01:04 My name is C.A. Murray 01:05 and allow me once again to thank you 01:07 for sharing this part of your day with us, 01:11 for being a part of this ministry, 01:13 part of our viewer-ship, part of this group of people 01:17 that is seeking to lift up the name of Jesus, 01:19 and to ready the world for our soon coming savior. 01:22 Thank you for your love, your prayers, 01:24 and your financial support of 3ABN. 01:27 I want you to give ear this day 01:28 because we got a very interesting subject. 01:30 We're going to talk about among other things, 01:33 Emotional Intelligence. 01:34 And just that very term I find very interesting 01:38 and very intriguing. 01:40 And the person is going to help us wade through 01:43 what all of that means, what emotional intelligence 01:45 is all about is Dr. Cletus Bertin. 01:47 Good doctor, good to have you here. 01:48 Thank you. Thanks for having me. 01:50 Yeah. 01:51 You'll hear a very interesting lilt 01:52 in his voice that I've detected is a combination 01:55 of a number of different influences. 01:57 One is a native of St Lucia. 01:59 Yes. Studied in Trinidad. 02:01 So that I can hear. 02:02 Spend some time in Barbados, 02:04 the land of my father, I can hear that too. 02:06 And also did his graduate study, 02:09 his doctoral work in London. 02:10 So all of that is in the pot and you hear that in his voice. 02:14 So if you hear what sounds just a little different 02:16 than what we're used to hearing, 02:18 it is that admixture of influences 02:21 from the many places that he has worked, 02:22 and served, and studied. 02:23 Now as I said, we're going to be talking about 02:25 emotional intelligence, 02:26 we're going to walk our way through that. 02:29 The reason that brings him from the warmth of St Lucia 02:32 to the cold of Southern Illinois, 02:34 that he is going to be doing a presentation 02:36 at the Thompsonville Church this weekend. 02:39 And we're very, very excited because he's going 02:41 to be telling us about emotional intelligence. 02:43 My wife Irma is the health and tempus leader 02:45 for the church. 02:47 And we were at ASI in Barbados last year 02:48 and heard his presentation and she insisted that he come, 02:53 even in the cold... 02:56 to be with us. 02:58 So we're going to be talking about that today. 03:00 And before we un-package his story, 03:02 Sandra Entermann, our good friend is here 03:05 and we're going to ask her this time to bring us 03:06 some really beautiful music. 03:08 She's going to be singing "For You Love Me." 03:33 I will love you always Jesus 03:40 I have a place in Your heart 03:47 Gentle shepherd, I remember 03:54 Mercy you shown from the start 04:00 For You love me, precious Jesus 04:07 You have saved me 04:11 I am Yours 04:16 And I will lead You 04:20 Always Jesus 04:23 All my possessions are Yours 04:30 Loving Father 04:34 Friend and brother 04:38 Good things you give 04:40 You're the source 04:44 For you love me, precious Jesus 04:51 You have saved me, I am yours 05:14 This prayer I'm breathing 05:17 God never leave me 05:21 You give joy to this heart of mine 05:28 Through understanding my mind is lurking 05:35 From Jesus to an awful time 05:42 For you love me precious Jesus 05:49 You have saved me 05:53 I am Yours 06:01 The antidote 06:05 For hopelessness is You 06:10 You're in my mind 06:16 I love You 06:22 You're my God 06:30 And you put joy within my heart 06:37 On me You put Your mind 06:45 There's no one else just like You 06:51 You're my God 06:59 I adore You precious Jesus 07:06 I chose the best friend 07:11 You're the one. 07:34 Amen and amen. 07:35 Thank you so much Sandra Entermann. 07:37 Sandra of course is from Australia 07:39 and we always love when she comes 07:41 in to record music. 07:42 Sandra has, dare I say, an eclectic sense of humor. 07:45 She is a very funny person. 07:47 Loves fun, loves the Lord, loves to sing for the Lord, 07:50 and whenever she comes, 07:51 we always have a very, very good time 07:53 when she is here. 07:54 My guest is Dr Cletus K. Bertin. 07:57 And I'm going to read his title 07:59 because we were struggling to get this 08:01 on his name simply 08:02 because this may be the longest 08:04 and most impressive title I've ever run into. 08:06 You work in the office 08:07 of the Director General Organization 08:10 of Eastern Caribbean State Secretary 08:12 as Head of Institutional and Strengthening Project. 08:15 Yes. Amen. 08:17 Amen. What is that? 08:21 Well, it's very much a project in the secretariat 08:25 of the organization of Eastern Caribbean States. 08:27 As you know the Eastern Caribbean 08:29 is made up of nine member states 08:31 that form an organization for economic, 08:34 political corporation. 08:36 And the secretariat is based in St Lucia. 08:38 And so the office of the director general 08:41 is undertaking a project to strengthen the institution. 08:45 Because there are reforms happening, 08:46 changes in terms of the economic arrangement 08:48 between the countries. 08:50 We have recently formed an economic union 08:53 on the nine islands just like the European Union. 08:55 And so there is need 08:57 for the organization to transform itself 08:59 to better serve the member states. 09:02 And so that's the project that I am heading 09:03 in the office of the director general at the OECS, 09:07 Organization of Eastern States Secretariat. 09:08 Impressive. 09:10 Now we're talking about Eastern Caribbean, 09:11 so it's Barbados? 09:13 Barbados is actually located 09:14 in the Eastern Caribbean but not part of it. 09:16 But not part of it. Yeah. 09:17 So we're talking about from Anguilla, Montserrat, 09:21 Antigua and Barbados, Saint Kitts and Nevis, 09:23 Grenada, Dominica, St. Lucia, 09:26 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines. 09:27 So you're heading right down the... 09:29 Right down, right. Yes. 09:30 British Virgin Islands as well. 09:31 Yes, yes, yes. 09:33 The Eastern Caribbean chain of islands. 09:35 Barbados is in discussions to join at some point, 09:38 that would be the remaining English speaking Island 09:41 in the Eastern Caribbean obviously, 09:42 the French speaking ones as well, Martinique, 09:45 Guadeloupe in between. 09:46 But of the English speaking islands, 09:49 it's Barbados is the only one which is not part of the OECS. 09:52 Yes, yes, yes. 09:54 I've been to some of them and preached on many of them. 09:56 And it's lovely out there. 09:58 And you being a native of St Lucia, 10:00 you are the beneficiary of all of that. 10:02 I want to talk to you about, 10:04 just before we talk about emotional intelligence of 10:05 what you're doing now because in looking at 10:08 where you've been and what you've done, 10:10 you've done a lot of work in a lot of places and study, 10:14 but tell me little about growing up. 10:16 Did you grow up in an Adventist home? 10:18 I would say semi. 10:22 My grandmother came to live there first 10:23 when I was in my early teens and she was an Adventist. 10:27 So we got that influence. 10:28 My extended family are all Adventists, 10:30 from my mother's hometown in Soufrière in St Lucia, 10:34 Adventists, the lender family, 10:36 many of them are here in the US and in the UK as well. 10:40 So my extended family 10:41 has a strong Adventists influence. 10:44 And most of them are Adventists. 10:45 My immediate family back then were not, 10:49 and when my grandmother came to live at first, 10:51 she was that Adventists influence. 10:54 And we always had that sort of interaction of church 10:57 through extended family inviting us 10:58 and so on and most specifically 11:01 my grandmother's presence in our home. 11:03 Yeah. Did you have brothers and sisters? 11:05 Yeah, two brothers. I'm the youngest of three boys. 11:07 The baby. Yes. 11:09 They say that the baby sometimes breaks new ground 11:12 and does other kinds of things. 11:13 You can never tell what that baby is going to do. 11:15 In some cases. 11:18 But your grandmother 11:19 had a strong influence on your life. 11:20 Well, yes, indeed. 11:22 I mean, she taught us many things. 11:23 She taught me how to swim. 11:24 She taught us how to be fluent in the creole dialect, 11:28 the French patois, 11:29 we weren't that fluent in it before she came. 11:32 Delivered this to our parents that was their code language. 11:35 And so they kept it away from us explicitly. 11:38 So my grandmother brought that influence of the creole 11:42 and making sure that we were fluent with it. 11:44 And eventually followed her to church one day 11:46 and attended a crusade and then another one 11:50 that same year, and then got baptized. 11:52 Yes. 11:53 Now how old were you about that time? 11:55 About 18, going on 19. 11:56 I'd just started university, 11:57 I did my first year 11:59 of University of the West Indies 12:00 in St Lucia. 12:01 There are three campuses in Barbados, 12:03 Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago. 12:05 So you could do your first year or second year 12:08 in the country where you live and then go across 12:10 to accomplish third year to complete. 12:11 Oh, I see. 12:13 So I did my first year, got baptized 12:15 and then the very next month went over 12:17 to Barbados to complete my first degree. 12:19 Coming to the Lord, giving your heart to the Lord, 12:21 coming to the Adventist church, 12:22 did it affect what you were studying, 12:24 how you were studying, 12:25 what you were doing at the time? 12:26 Not particularly because in terms of the lifestyle 12:29 and so on, it's fairly consistent. 12:31 My studies were in management. 12:34 Obviously the University of West Indies 12:35 which is a non Adventists institution 12:38 but what made a huge difference 12:40 was the presence of an organization 12:42 called Advent Fellowship. 12:44 And so I was very privileged to have 12:46 as my first fellowship 12:48 into the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 12:50 Advent Fellowship. 12:52 The presence at the Cave Hill Campus 12:53 in Barbados, 12:55 there were senior mentors and other students 12:57 who are all Adventists from different islands 13:01 but studying together at a non-Adventist institution. 13:04 So it is a vibrant sort of a youth ministry. 13:08 So we fellowship together on Friday evenings, 13:11 went to church together on Sabbath or outdoors, 13:13 nature parks, whatever, and sort of kept that bondage. 13:16 It is an excellent support mechanism. 13:18 I was going to say so, 13:20 because though you had to leave home, 13:21 you were surrounded by like believers. 13:23 Yes, yes, yes. 13:25 And indeed even roommate of my, my very good, 13:28 my very best friend from way back 13:30 who is not an Adventist 13:32 but we have a tremendous spiritual bond 13:34 of Anthony Buske. 13:35 And to this day we would discuss 13:37 and pray together and disagree obviously on some issues 13:42 but we were very much a support for each other as well. 13:44 Great. 13:46 Now did you finish your studies in Barbados? 13:47 Yes. 13:48 My first degree in Barbados and went back to 13:50 St Lucia to work. 13:51 Yes. And worked how long? 13:53 For four years, and then went back to study again, 13:56 this time to Trinidad and Tobago, 13:58 the University of West Indies, 14:00 the campus in Trinidad, and similar vein of study 14:04 in management but specialize in law 14:06 and information systems, integration technology. 14:09 And then was, I had a good opportunity 14:12 to then be the president 14:13 of Advent Fellowship at the Trinidad campus, 14:16 the first experience in Advent Fellowship 14:19 as a new convert, so to speak in Barbados, 14:24 and then in Trinidad four years later as president 14:27 and assisting with the administration 14:29 of the organization. 14:30 So you were able to help nurture 14:32 the organization that nurtured you? 14:35 In a sense, yes. In a sense. 14:37 Were you married yet? 14:39 Got married after my first degree, 14:40 after coming back from Barbados, 14:42 in my early 20s, got married and then we worked for a while 14:46 and then we both went to study in Trinidad. 14:48 Oh, so you both were studying together. 14:49 Yes, yes, in Trinidad. 14:50 Good Adventist girl, no doubt. Absolutely. 14:55 So you're in Trinidad, working on your master? 14:57 Yes. You finish that there? 14:59 Yes, finish in Trinidad, went back to St Lucia. 15:02 So in your mind, always to come back home. 15:03 You never thinking about going off 15:05 and staying some place? 15:06 Not particularly. 15:08 No, till this day, no. 15:09 Yeah. 15:10 So went back to St Lucia to work again, 15:12 worked for about three to four years 15:13 in the Prime Minister's office, doing a public sector reform 15:16 and change management what have you, 15:19 and then I recognize the need for the advancement, 15:22 professional that is. 15:24 And so looked to London and registered in a PhD program 15:28 at the City University Business School 15:30 in London. 15:31 So you went all the way back across went to London. 15:32 Back to London. Yeah. Yeah. 15:35 And study there for your PhD. Yes. 15:36 So your PhD. is in? 15:38 Well, it's a long title, as you know these things are. 15:41 But the short version 15:42 is Information Technology and Change Management. 15:45 Really looking at 15:46 organizational change management, 15:48 how organizations change 15:50 in terms of processes, structures, procedures, 15:53 and why some change efforts fail 15:55 and why some succeed. 15:57 And the same with information technology, 15:59 looking at the introduction of web based systems, 16:03 e-commerce, e-government, 16:05 and why some initiatives fail and why some succeed. 16:09 So there is actually a field of study 16:11 that talks about how to initiate change 16:14 and how to make it go successful? 16:15 Absolutely. Absolutely. 16:17 There's a huge body of work, 16:18 a huge body of literature on change management, 16:20 as this thing for management 16:22 or business management or management studies. 16:25 So it's a sort of specialist for you looking 16:26 at the dynamics of change. 16:28 And also the spread of innovation, 16:32 any new practice or any new policy system. 16:35 And again, the mechanics, the dynamics 16:38 why some initiatives fail and why some succeed. 16:42 Well, I did not know that, that was a course of study. 16:44 Yes. 16:47 You got your doctorate, back to St Lucia. 16:49 Indeed. 16:53 I see a pattern here. Yeah, there is indeed. 16:55 And mostly then because I also need 16:57 to get some assistance from the government of St Lucia 16:59 for that leg of my studies. 17:02 And so obligated or not, I would have gone back anyway 17:05 and worked with government of St Lucia 17:08 for a period of time. 17:09 And about five years ago, 17:11 I started working more regionally. 17:14 So from about 2004 17:16 I left the government of St Lucia 17:18 and worked with several agencies 17:19 at the regional level, so the UN, 17:21 the World Bank, 17:22 the European Union on various projects 17:24 which would span different islands 17:26 in terms of application of work, 17:28 Dominica, Grenada, 17:30 Saint Vincent and Belize and few others. 17:33 I'm curious, what activity of government 17:36 would occasion hiring someone who is a specialist in change? 17:41 What, you know, what are you doing 17:42 specifically for your government? 17:43 That's an excellent question. 17:45 I think my first job in government 17:46 was looking at public sector reform, 17:49 public sector modernization. 17:52 And that's the office I worked in, 17:53 in the office of the Prime Minister, 17:55 in the government of St. Lucia, basically trying to modernize 17:59 the administration of public affairs, 18:01 the structures of government, the procedures, 18:04 the increased use of technology for example, 18:07 to streamline processes 18:08 and procedures for greater effectiveness 18:10 and efficiency. 18:11 So that's really, that was my focus 18:14 under the title of e-government, 18:15 electronic government. 18:17 And so that's really what I specialized 18:19 in the first few years upon my return. 18:21 Wow, that's impressive. 18:23 How has your faith, is my question, 18:28 how has that sort of informed 18:30 how you apply those technical principles 18:32 which you learned in school? 18:34 Well, that's a huge area 18:35 because as you know the application 18:37 of knowledge is really where is at. 18:39 You could acquire massive knowledge, 18:41 in for example, computer programming 18:43 and put it to creating viruses 18:46 and spreading definite destruction 18:49 over networks worldwide. 18:51 So certainly the ethical application 18:53 of knowledge is a huge factor 18:54 in terms of fairly and consistently 18:57 applying certain principles, 18:59 especially in dealing with people in organizations. 19:02 I guess that's what as we were discussing it earlier, 19:04 lead me to the whole area of emotional intelligence, 19:07 even though I never did it as a subject in school. 19:11 And so it's really that underpinning 19:13 of how you apply knowledge 19:14 and information to practical situations 19:17 in organizations where the change process 19:20 already is difficult for persons to cope with, 19:24 and so administrating it in a way 19:26 that is ethical, in a way that is fair, 19:28 in a way that is transparent 19:29 is where the faith aspect comes in. 19:31 I see. 19:32 Well, let me ask you then this, 19:34 what were you seeing as you were working 19:36 that moved you towards emotional intelligence? 19:38 What were you seeing as you applied 19:39 what you learned in school to real life situations? 19:42 Yes. The main thing was failure. 19:45 Because as we said, the change process isn't easy. 19:49 And as, I mean, across the board, 19:51 historically a lot of organizational change 19:54 efforts fail. 19:55 And no surprise 19:56 because a lot of our own personal 19:58 change efforts fail. 19:59 Look at the whole cycling 20:01 of New Year's resolutions every year, 20:02 we make them and break them 20:04 before the end of the week of the first year. 20:07 And so the failure, the rate of failure 20:10 of organizational change efforts 20:13 was what had me 20:14 really looking deeper at what really would it 20:16 take to make this thing a little more successive 20:19 in terms of application. 20:21 And it turns out there's again 20:22 the whole body of literature supporting that, 20:25 not least, which is the Bible 20:28 in terms of how to get change working 20:31 and to be a success. 20:33 And so the body of work that I got interested 20:36 in was under the caption emotionally intelligent, 20:38 didn't know what it was, hadn't heard of it before, 20:41 but started reading and read tons of books 20:43 and articles and recent research on it 20:46 on neuroscience and cognitive psychology 20:48 and what have you, 20:50 and recognize that really the second point 20:53 to change is not so much the intellectual mind 20:56 but the emotional mind. 20:59 Meaning, how we feel about things would determine 21:02 to what extent we apply it. 21:04 Yes. Powerful. 21:06 And I want to get into that emotional mind 21:11 in just moment, but before I do so, 21:14 the question that I'm asking, I'm thinking about is, 21:17 does change on a personal level have anything to do with, 21:20 are there any similarities or any parameters 21:23 that are the same with change on institutional level? 21:26 Are the mechanisms the same for I want to do 21:28 something to change myself, 21:30 does that flow through to an institutional change, 21:32 are they different? 21:34 To some extent there are very similar. 21:36 In terms of how it happens is slightly different. 21:38 You take for example 21:40 the emotional intelligence framework, 21:42 these are four categories: 21:44 self-awareness, self management, 21:47 social awareness, and social relationships. 21:50 So at the personal level, 21:52 we're dealing more with self-awareness 21:53 and self management. 21:55 Self management will include self motivation, 21:57 self-regulation et cetera. 21:59 So that's really 22:00 at the personal competency level. 22:03 In terms of organizational change, 22:04 it happens at the interactive level 22:07 which is more social awareness, 22:09 being able to understand emotions in others 22:12 and what they mean, 22:13 being able to demonstrate empathy for example, 22:16 and social relationships, being able to communicate, 22:19 to deal with conflict, to deal with disagreements, 22:22 et cetera. 22:23 So it's really part of the same framework 22:25 but at two different levels or dimensions. 22:28 But they're obviously strongly intertwined. 22:31 Yes, yes, yes. 22:32 I'm thinking 22:33 of course that I don't even know 22:35 if I have take you down that road 22:36 because my mind is going in so many directions. 22:39 Particularly there are some people 22:41 who seem to be able to motivate themselves, 22:43 say to get up every morning and walk and run, 22:45 or to get up every morning 22:47 and do some sort of exercise programs, 22:49 and others who need 22:50 a significant amount of encouragement. 22:54 Is that a character flaw, a character weakness 22:56 or just a different way of approaching things? 22:58 No, I think what, I mean all defy 23:00 and shows that all of us find some areas 23:04 easy to change and other areas difficult to change. 23:07 So for me, it might be diet and exercise, 23:10 for you it might be something else. 23:12 So if each individual, we're all created 23:15 unique and special. 23:16 And so the question of how and why 23:19 and when we change is really different 23:22 for each individual. 23:23 And so it's to find out what could 23:26 get that particular individual to want to change 23:31 and then to go through the hard process 23:33 of making the change. 23:34 So I don't think it's really a matter of saying, 23:37 some people are or some people aren't, 23:39 it's a question of what particularly 23:41 for different people could get them 23:43 to change in specific areas. 23:45 And it goes to the question of what do you ultimately value. 23:50 And so that's where the question of values come in, 23:51 and we sometimes have to question 23:53 even our very selves, if we value good health, 23:56 or we value longevity, or we value health principles, 24:01 then why aren't we applying 24:03 or why aren't we doing what it takes to do. 24:05 So it goes back to probably re-looking 24:07 at really our value system and what would motivate us 24:11 to make the changes that we seek. 24:12 Okay, I got another question. 24:14 Because I want you, we're going to get to, 24:16 because I want to define emotional intelligent. 24:17 But I am taking a little pit stop 24:19 because you are saying so much. 24:21 Which is a better motivator for change? 24:24 Is it the fear that something bad will happen to me 24:27 or the more positive, that I value this higher? 24:32 Something as simple as I value being 170 pounds, 24:36 or I fear being 250 pounds? 24:38 Is it that, which is a better long term 24:41 motivator or promoter of change? 24:43 Yeah. That's an excellent question. 24:45 And there are two, as you know sets of emotions, 24:48 positive and negative. 24:50 The thing about negative emotions like fear 24:52 is that they do not last. 24:54 Yeah. Because it's not sustainable. 24:56 The brain cannot process fear for a prolonged period of time. 25:00 You cannot live in fear for prolonged period of time. 25:03 The body will protect itself with some mechanism, 25:06 whether it's a distraction, 25:08 whether it's a rationalization or something or the other. 25:11 So for negative emotion to be your motivator 25:14 it will not last, because inherently the body 25:17 will protect itself from that negative emotion 25:20 lasting too long. 25:21 So then for the lay person, fear will get you started 25:24 but it cannot keep you going? 25:25 Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. 25:26 Fear would be an excellent start. 25:31 It absolutely be an excellent kickstart. 25:33 Yeah. 25:34 But to keep it going, it has to be something else. 25:37 There has to be something else layered on it, 25:39 and that's where the positive emotions 25:41 would come in, the value system, 25:43 what do I aspired to be and to do. 25:45 And that's the difficult part, 25:47 really embracing a value system that could sustain you. 25:50 Yeah. 25:51 Yes, see, I find these kind of stuff fascinating, 25:52 I really do. 25:54 I need to ask you to define for me, 25:56 for us, what is emotional intelligence? 25:58 Right. 25:59 There are million and one definitions 26:01 as you'd well imagine, 26:02 so I think I'll just make up my own, no. 26:05 I will steal a few lines here and there. 26:06 It's really three things. 26:08 It's really the ability or the capacity 26:10 to accurately perceive emotions in ourselves, 26:15 first of all, and in others. 26:17 Yes. 26:18 It's also the ability to be self-motivated. 26:21 And thirdly, it's the ability to manage these emotions 26:24 well in ourselves and in our relationships. 26:27 So that's really the three components 26:29 of emotional intelligence, perceiving emotions, 26:32 motivating ourselves and managing emotions 26:35 well in ourselves 26:36 and in our relationships with others. 26:38 That's, that important, 26:40 and that's some of what you're going 26:41 to talk about during the seminar. 26:42 Absolutely. So that's where we start. 26:44 In the seminar we start looking at the role of the brain, 26:47 looking at some neuroscience, 26:48 research in terms of what it means for us 26:50 as Christians obviously, 26:52 and looking at the function of the heart. 26:54 So I did, the series is entitled 26:56 ''Can you feel your heart thinking." 27:00 And so we look at the role of the heart, 27:01 the brain as organs of the body 27:03 and what they do in terms of facilitating 27:06 thinking and feeling. 27:08 And the interplay between the two, reason and passion. 27:11 That is fantastic, and to me, I find it very intriguing. 27:14 Now what is sad is that by the time 27:16 this program airs, 27:18 your seminar will actually be over. 27:20 But I know you are available to give a seminar, 27:23 so we'll put up some contact information 27:25 at other times. 27:26 But I think the idea of, you know I have, 27:28 I made the statement in worship 27:30 just the other day because as a child, 27:32 I heard someone say, 27:33 I heard two older people talking 27:34 and while as a kid I used to like to listen 27:36 to older people's conversation. 27:37 And I heard this guy say, 27:40 "As bad as it is to breathe secondhand smoke, 27:45 it is worse to blow smoke up your own nose." 27:49 And as a child it was, I couldn't process that. 27:51 It was years, in fact I was in college 27:54 and a friend of mine, my roommate was sad 27:56 because he didn't get into a certain choir 27:58 and I did get into a choir. 28:00 And he would say, "How was the fixing, 28:01 how can I get in and he couldn't get in." 28:04 And that he was a great singer. 28:05 And he really wasn't a great singer, 28:07 actually was pretty bad. 28:08 And after while after about 20 minutes 28:10 I said, you know you didn't get in 28:11 because you stink, you don't sing good. 28:13 You are not good at all. 28:15 And I said I heard myself say, 28:16 "As bad as it is to breathe secondhand smoke, 28:18 it is worse to blow smoke up your own nose." 28:20 I know that you need to be honest with yourself. 28:22 And I think that from what I hear, 28:24 that's kind of whatyou're dealing with. 28:26 How do I assess, how I function, 28:28 why I make decision, how I make decision? 28:29 Yes, which is a very difficult thing. 28:31 I mean, turning the spotlight in and on yourself 28:33 is a difficult thing inherently, 28:34 and we all go for it daily. 28:36 Sure. 28:37 And so that's what intrigued me about it, 28:38 not obviously haven't perfected it, 28:40 but I will try, but really stick into it 28:44 and trying to apply and failing 28:47 and starting back and the dynamics of doing it 28:49 yourself led me further into studying 28:51 what this thing is all about. 28:53 So it's really I think we're all in a journey 28:55 that research and obviously the Bible 28:58 and other informal sources would help us through 29:01 collectively making that journey successful. 29:03 I see. 29:04 Cletus, walk me through if you will, 29:06 the kinds of things 29:07 that you discuss in your seminar. 29:09 Break down for me the kind of things 29:10 that we're going to experience. 29:12 Yes, well, we spoke about some of it already 29:13 in terms of defining what emotional intelligence is, 29:16 the framework in terms of self-awareness, 29:18 self management, social awareness, 29:20 empathy et cetera, and social relations. 29:22 So we define basically the scope of what it is 29:26 we're talking about. 29:27 And as I said, the role of the brain, 29:28 the heart as organs of the body in processing 29:31 and thinking and feeling 29:32 and the interplay between the two. 29:35 Then we look at the framework or system 29:37 of learning emotional intelligence. 29:40 In other words, how can we increase it 29:42 gradually overtime, it's not an overnight thing, 29:46 and a system that takes us through 29:47 the subconscious mind and the conscious mind 29:51 blending between again, the cognitive, 29:54 the thinking and the experiential, 29:56 the feeling, and making the two work together 29:59 through prayer to make improvements 30:01 in emotional intelligence. 30:02 So we really look at the detail learning framework 30:06 as to how we can actively improve 30:08 our emotional intelligence. 30:10 And then we look at some practical areas 30:13 in terms of 'so what?', 'What does this mean?' 30:16 You know my next question would be 30:17 because when I did 30:20 a little teaching of theology students, 30:23 one of things I said, "If you're going to take 30:25 30, 45 minutes of somebody's time 30:27 teaching to preach to them, 30:29 you must answer in the body of that message, 30:30 'So what?' 30:32 You know, so what? So what? 30:34 So we end with the applications, 30:36 well, we'll do it throughout but we emphasize 30:38 to the second half of the program 30:41 what are the practical applications 30:43 and we look at about seven areas 30:44 of practical application of this stuff. 30:47 We look at leadership as one area of application, 30:50 we look at conflict management, we look at anger management, 30:54 we look at parenting as I've had to learn 30:58 again myself being a new, relatively new parent 31:01 of a four year old son. 31:04 So emotional intelligence in parenting. 31:07 We look at the role of emotional 31:09 intelligence in evangelism, 31:11 a very critical connection that we need to make. 31:13 And its role in effective communication 31:16 and negotiations. 31:18 So a whole wide range of everyday 31:20 practical applications, 31:21 both professionally and personally. 31:23 How do we apply this stuff in our daily life? 31:26 Yeah. Yeah. 31:27 So a person who certainly is in leadership 31:29 or trying to build a team certainly needs to know. 31:31 Absolutely. 31:32 And parents certainly need to know. 31:34 Yes, yes. 31:35 And I should mention that I started 31:36 off doing these seminars as you know, 31:38 through my studies really on Change Management 31:41 Information Technology Implementation 31:43 and increasingly moved to the softer side 31:46 and look at conflict resolution, 31:48 conflict management, 31:50 communication and under the rubric 31:51 of emotional intelligence for organizations 31:54 in the public and private sector. 31:56 And then eventually saw 31:58 its real application to the church. 32:00 Yeah and you're tracking with me 32:01 because my next question was going to be, 32:03 well, certainly one of my subsequent questions 32:04 was, I think there is one application 32:08 in the corporate field 32:11 but, so you also see that need within this area of the church? 32:14 Exactly, which is why I put together 32:16 the seminar series for the church 32:18 because I've been doing it 32:20 for a while in the corporate world, 32:22 and in government, in the public sector 32:24 and in private sector. 32:26 And so package in a differently to speak 32:29 to the needs of the church 32:30 and trying to all of us working together, 32:33 increase our level of spirituality 32:34 and application of principles that we know already 32:38 was really the challenging part for me, 32:40 both personally and corporately. 32:41 Right. 32:43 And I was by... my train of thought, 32:45 why would the saints of God on the way to the Kingdom? 32:48 Everyone perfecting or trying to be perfect, 32:50 why would they need those kinds of things 32:52 in the church arena? 32:54 Again, it is a matter of breaking down the process 32:56 because one of the things we talk about 32:58 in a seminar is how does the Holy Spirit work? 33:01 And we obviously come to the point 33:03 that it's not magical, it's not by like that, 33:06 it's through the organs and the capacities 33:09 that God has given us, 33:11 which is the heart and the mind. 33:13 And so being smart about what we think about 33:16 and also what we feel about 33:18 has really open up the avenues for the Holy Spirit 33:21 to work better in our lives. 33:22 So it's nothing separate and apart 33:24 from what we are called to do, 33:26 but it's really enhancing the capacities 33:28 that God have given and better utilize 33:31 in what we have to aid 33:34 in the spiritual work in our lives. 33:35 Yeah, yeah. 33:37 Good doctor, then why is it so tough for us 33:42 to accurately assess 33:44 or why is shining the mirror on ourselves 33:49 and taking an honest look at who we are 33:51 and what we're doing, 33:52 why does that seem so difficult? 33:54 Because it is. 33:58 Meaning, it's literally painful. 34:00 Yeah, it is. 34:01 And the brain, the body protects itself 34:03 from pain and discomfort. 34:06 Yes. Yes? 34:07 So if something is uncomfortable and painful, 34:11 the body would inherently 34:12 or naturally seek to shield itself from it. 34:15 And so that's why it's so difficult, 34:16 because it is so difficult. 34:18 Yes? 34:19 And so we protect ourselves, 34:21 our image from that introspective 34:23 look for almost self preservation. 34:26 But ironically it has to happen for self preservation. 34:29 Interestingly enough. 34:30 I have seen individuals who will decry 34:33 a certain character trait in someone else, 34:35 and possess that self-same trait, 34:38 that same thing perhaps even more, 34:40 but they just don't see it in themselves. 34:43 Yeah, yeah. 34:44 Will your seminar do anything 34:46 for that kind of person, does it? 34:47 I know it may not be designed to address 34:49 that specific reality 34:51 but does it even touch on that tentatively. 34:52 Yeah, for all of us it will do that, 34:54 it will help us assist us, including the facilitator. 34:59 And in taking a closer look at our blank spots 35:03 in terms of emotionally what might be 35:04 difficult to look at and address, 35:07 and do it in a way that is not confrontational, 35:10 but in a way that we could do it at our own pace, 35:13 in our own space in a nurturing sort of way 35:16 because it doesn't speak 35:17 to an overtly confrontational approach 35:21 this body of work, it's really about 35:22 nurturing yourself 35:24 with the assistance of some tools 35:25 and techniques that can be 35:27 useful in your individual situation. 35:30 So it's giving tools and techniques 35:32 that one could take and apply and will be leaving some, 35:35 you know, some of these instruments, 35:37 some of these techniques that persons 35:39 could take away and apply overtime. 35:41 Okay, I'm glad to say, 35:42 so this is not one of those kind of things, 35:44 if you're broke, come to the seminar 35:46 and you'll be fixed, but you'll be 35:47 at least given some tools that you can 35:49 apply over a length of time. 35:50 Exactly. It's not a quick fix. 35:52 It's not come get rich today, be a millionaire tomorrow, no. 35:57 It's a process and we all grow through 35:58 that process overtime, we grow in grace 36:01 and we're certainly not, we can be transformed, 36:04 yes, but it's an ongoing growth process 36:07 that we experience. 36:08 And so that's what we'll be speaking to. 36:10 It's not a overnight magical formula. 36:13 Yeah. 36:14 I'm excited and I think as, like I said, 36:19 as we went around town and passed out flyers, 36:21 my wife and I did a couple days, 36:23 just the idea that people, 36:25 I think people want to know about themselves. 36:27 I think they may be afraid 36:29 of what they will find, but there are many people 36:31 who want to know themselves more. 36:32 Yes, and I think the issue 36:34 is the application to specific areas 36:36 and seeing the usefulness of it. 36:39 As I said, that's why we emphasize 36:40 towards the end in the practical applications, 36:43 what does this mean for leadership, 36:45 what does this mean for negotiations 36:47 that we take part in every day? 36:50 Formal or informal negotiations 36:52 in the workplace or in the home? 36:54 What does this mean for me as a parent? 36:56 What does this mean for me as a supervisor, 36:59 motivating my staff 37:00 and resolving conflict among my staff? 37:02 Or facilitating better communication 37:05 in the workplace? 37:06 So these specific applications of it, 37:08 I think is really where the value is added 37:11 in terms of participation and engagement. 37:13 So it's not academic or theoretical. 37:16 Yes, we discuss the theoretical, 37:19 the body of work for a few minutes 37:21 to give it the context but really application 37:24 of it is really where the emphasis will be. 37:29 I have always maintained that if you cannot negotiate, 37:34 you cannot stay happily married, 37:35 because marriage among other things 37:37 is negotiate. 37:38 Absolutely. 37:39 You know, and I said it before, 37:41 I think two roles God gave men, one is priest, 37:43 the other is ruler. 37:45 Priest is nonnegotiable, ruler is. 37:48 Right. 37:49 You know you rule over 37:50 what you're allowed to rule over, you know. 37:52 Exactly. 37:53 So if you cannot negotiate, you cannot. 37:54 And you got to give it to it, you know. 37:56 And if the wife is better at certain things 37:58 then common sense says, let her do it. 38:00 Absolutely. Absolutely. 38:02 So I suspect that having gone through this, 38:05 husbands and wives can pick up 38:07 some negotiation skills that will, 38:09 so I'm just, I'm trying to sell your product. 38:12 Because if, you know, if a guy is having trouble 38:14 and there are some guys 38:15 who are not good at negotiation or negotiating, 38:21 yet that is an integral part of a happy marriage. 38:23 Unless you got an unusually docile 38:26 and usually pliable wife, 38:28 you're going to have to negotiate stuff. 38:30 And to the extent that you can negotiate, 38:32 I think you can be happy. 38:33 And then the part about this is absolutely right, 38:36 I totally agree everything you said, 38:39 you put it so well. 38:40 And what will be emphasizing in the seminar 38:42 is the emotional aspects of negotiating 38:46 and will be joined on several bodies of work. 38:48 One is a book by Robert Fisher called Beyond Reason: 38:52 Using the Emotions As You Negotiate. 38:56 So it's really looking at the role of reason 39:00 and emotions in the negotiating process. 39:02 And again, we'll come to the discovery 39:05 that a lot of the difficulty or failures in negotiating 39:10 has to do with managing emotions poorly. 39:13 Amen and amen. 39:16 So that's really the emphasis 39:18 in terms of negotiating where there are 39:20 many principles of negotiating 39:21 that we could cover in terms of rational principle, 39:25 the cognitive mind could understand, 39:27 do this, do that, but when the temperature rises, 39:31 and emotions take over, 39:33 negotiations are like fistfight almost. 39:37 So that's really what we'll be 39:38 focusing on the softer side of negotiating, 39:40 dealing with the use of the emotions 39:43 as you negotiate so that they would 39:45 actively enhance the negotiating process 39:48 as opposed to take away from it. 39:50 Now should you then want to use 39:53 your emotions or manage your emotions 39:57 or lose your emotions so that you can adequately 40:00 and accurately negotiate? 40:02 That's a.... 40:05 I think it is... I've seen, 40:07 I've seen people sit in boardrooms 40:08 and the temperature rises 40:10 and no one puts their foot on the break. 40:12 Everybody is on the throttle 40:13 and you can see the thing disintegrating, 40:15 but you can't pull it back from the precipice 40:17 because it's gotten so wide. 40:19 Well, that's a brilliant question. 40:20 It's almost like you took part of my seminar 40:23 and put it back on in a question. 40:25 The thing is we can't ignore emotions. 40:28 We may try but we can't because even though we suppress them, 40:31 they will still affect us. 40:33 They will affect us physically. 40:34 We will feel physiological effects of it 40:37 and they will affect our thinking. 40:39 Neither on the other end can we focus on every emotion 40:42 that we feel during that intense negotiating. 40:45 It will be so debilitating 40:47 that we can't even think properly. 40:48 So neither can we ignore it 40:50 nor can we focus on every emotion that we feel. 40:54 What we will discuss in the seminar 40:56 is what then do we do with these emotions. 40:58 Right. 41:01 And it's a question of processing them. 41:04 So it's not suppressing, it's not repressing, 41:06 neither it has given everyone full attention, 41:08 but processing them. 41:09 And what we mean by processing 41:12 is seeing what is the co-concern 41:14 that has led to that emotion. 41:16 Uh, okay. 41:17 So we're not focusing on the emotion, 41:20 but neither are we ignoring it 41:22 because we're asking now the question to ourselves. 41:25 What is the co-concern that I have, 41:27 that is leading to that emotion? 41:29 I see. We ask that of ourselves 41:31 and we ask that of the other person not literally, 41:34 but we figure it out. 41:35 Well, this person is acting up, getting all upset. 41:37 What is the co-concern 41:40 that is not being met, 41:41 which is leading to that emotion being manifested? 41:44 And then the negotiation, 41:46 now would deal with that co-concern 41:48 as opposed to the emotion that is being manifested. 41:52 And there are five co-concerns 41:54 that we'll discuss in the seminar 41:55 that underline most of the emotions 41:57 that come out during intense negotiations. 42:00 Yeah. Give them to me real quick if you can. 42:03 Come to the seminar. 42:05 We'll leave that as a teaser. 42:06 Let me say this then. 42:07 Because it appears to me that people tend to respond 42:10 or react to how, what is said makes them feel 42:14 as opposed to purely what is said. 42:16 Absolutely. 42:17 Yeah. Because it's a response to what it's said 42:18 and how I feel about it 42:20 and even more than the words themselves. 42:21 Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. 42:23 Yeah. So you can say something fairly benign, 42:27 but it's taken the wrong way 42:28 and a person is picking up a lot of speed 42:30 and a lot of heat 42:31 and you didn't mean it that way, 42:33 but they took it that way. 42:34 Absolutely. Yeah. 42:35 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 42:37 That is... It's worth just to deal 42:40 with interpersonal conflict resolution 42:41 here in a seminar just for that. 42:43 Yes. 42:44 Let alone, the overall roof will be changed 42:46 that you're dealing with. 42:47 Just how do I deal with my wife 42:49 when stuff is getting really tight 42:50 and we're standing like this. 42:52 Or how do I deal with my brother or my sister 42:54 or my colleague or my fellow church member, 42:58 the person in a pew next to me, 42:59 those kinds of things. If it makes me a calmer, 43:02 better more reason person, then it's worth it I think. 43:04 But you're so right because normally 43:06 the packaging for the seminar what I do for corporations 43:09 and different groups is on the conflict management 43:12 and negotiating and that's like a two day seminar. 43:15 So as soon as I get back, 43:16 I go to Saint Vincent and do this two day seminar 43:19 for the utility company in Saint Vincent, 43:22 for a group of mid level managers 43:24 on emotional intelligence, 43:25 but specifically applied for conflict management 43:28 and negotiating, that's two days, 43:31 full two days seminar. 43:32 Wow. So you're right. 43:33 The major application 43:35 of this is in conflict management 43:37 and negotiating. 43:38 Wow. Are the kinds of conflicts 43:40 that you see in a church setting parallel, similar, 43:42 totally different from the kinds of conflicts 43:44 you see in a corporate setting? 43:46 Very probably, very probably at the core. 43:48 I mean the issues are different, 43:50 the surface issues are different, 43:52 but below the surface, 43:54 exactly the same. 43:55 Because there's this theory, the Iceberg Theory of Conflict. 43:59 What you see at the top of the water is the issue, 44:01 but there's a huge bowl of ice below, 44:04 that's what sank the Titanic. 44:05 They thought it was a little piece of ice 44:07 floating on the water 44:08 and think, ah, we have a big ship, 44:10 we could break through this, 44:11 let's go. And then it sank the Titanic. 44:13 So the Iceberg Theory says, 44:14 never mind how small it seems on the surface 44:16 or what the issue seems to be on the surface, 44:19 what's below is a myriad of issues, 44:21 personalities, emotions, hidden agendas, 44:24 unresolved issues in the past etcetera 44:26 and that pretty much is the same whether 44:28 it's corporate or church, 44:30 below the surface that is. 44:32 Yeah. See that occurs 44:33 to me is to be very important 44:34 because we see what's above the water. 44:36 You said this to me. 44:37 Yes. Exactly. 44:39 And they don't look at that whole... Yeah, 44:41 there's a whole lot of stuff under that, you know. 44:42 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 44:44 That's what sinks the ship. 44:47 That is powerful. Yeah. 44:48 Now walk me through 44:49 because you're going to be with us, 44:51 with the Thompsonville Church, three sessions. 44:52 Yes. 44:54 In its broader sense, 44:55 what are we talking about 44:57 the first session, the second and the third? 44:59 Okay. Well, I don't generally stick to a rigid agenda 45:03 because it's eclectic. 45:04 And the people ask questions, there is interaction. 45:07 We might shift stuff around. 45:08 But generally the five areas that we will be covering 45:11 from the first session would be the introduction. 45:14 What is emotional intelligence, 45:15 defining the framework, 45:17 looking at the four categories, 45:19 the role of the heart and the brain 45:21 and processing emotions etcetera, 45:22 so that will be the first session. 45:24 The second session deals with the learning system 45:29 in terms of as I said, the subconscious, 45:30 conscious mind. 45:32 How do we process in a five step 45:34 methodology using, 45:35 when as assessment, exploration etcetera 45:38 to apply emotional intelligent techniques. 45:41 And then the last session 45:43 would be the application to these specific areas. 45:46 Looking, as I said, the parenting, 45:47 the communication, conflict resolution etcetera. 45:50 Understood. Now let me ask you this because in Barbados 45:53 I think you were given one session. 45:54 Yes. You were in one session. 45:56 Can you really do anything in one session 45:58 or do you really like a little more time 45:59 to sort of walk us through this kind of deal? 46:01 Yeah. However much time I'm given, I work with it. 46:03 So I could do it in half an hour, 46:06 in a sermon in 45 minutes or in two days. 46:10 So however much time I have I use. 46:13 And so obviously the shorter the time, 46:15 it would be more surface. 46:16 Sure. 46:18 And so in an hour or 45 minutes, 46:19 it would be an awareness and explanation 46:22 of the concepts as we discussed 46:23 here in a few minutes, what it's all about. 46:26 But in terms of application and learning about it, 46:29 it will take a longer period of time. 46:31 Yeah. 46:32 Because my wife heard your total presentation. 46:34 I was running and I would be doing all kinds of things, 46:36 but I heard enough to, to peak my intelligence. 46:38 And of course Thompsonville 46:40 will get the benefit of three sessions. 46:41 Exactly. You know this weekend. 46:43 I think I want to do this 46:44 because we've talked about a number of things. 46:46 You may have heard something that intrigues you 46:48 or you may want to contact Dr. Bertin 46:52 or have him come to your church, 46:53 your school, your business, 46:56 dare I say and walk your employees through this 47:00 or your fellow church members. 47:02 Should you want to contact him, 47:03 here is how you can do precisely that. 47:09 If you would like to contact Cletus 47:10 to find out how you can teach 47:12 your children emotional intelligence. 47:14 Then you can write to Cletus K. Bertin, 47:17 Post Office Box CP-6380, Castries, St. Lucia. 47:22 That's Cletus K. Bertin, 47:24 Post Office Box CP-6380, Castries, St. Lucia. 47:29 You can call 758-285-2875. 47:33 That's 758-285-2875. 47:37 You can also send him an email 47:39 at ckbertin@gmail.com. 47:42 That's ckbertin@gmail.com. 47:48 Call or write to him today. 47:54 All right. You may want to get a hold of the good doctor 47:59 because his information is so relevant, 48:01 so pertinent to what we're doing today. 48:03 And as I said we got a chance to hear a little bit of it 48:05 and this is good stuff and relevant stuff. 48:09 There are those who... 48:12 Once you start talking about mind 48:14 and mentality and subconscious 48:17 and conscious, think you're kind of peddling snake 48:20 or you know, a little afraid of that, 48:21 psychologist, psychiatry, 48:23 why should they not fear those things? 48:24 Right. Because it's part of us. 48:25 It's God given. 48:27 And what we're talking about, 48:28 as I said it's not a quick fix, 48:30 it's not a overnight solution. 48:31 It's something that we have to grow into 48:33 and work with as we all are progressing 48:35 and growing in grace. 48:37 So it's not something that is magical 48:39 or something that will happen instantaneously. 48:41 That's not the promise that has been made at all. 48:43 It's simply a matter of using our God given attributes 48:47 and applying certain tools and techniques 48:50 to enhance our relationship with others and ourselves. 48:53 Amen and amen. Thank you so very, very much. 48:54 Thank you for having me. 48:56 It's been a pleasure and you're not going yet. 48:58 But we're gonna take a minute 48:59 to bring Sandra Entermann back. 49:02 And she's gonna be singing "Author of Our Lives." 49:26 Some summer mornings 49:30 As day was dawning 49:34 Sweet birds saw us in field 49:37 Feel him, 49:42 Then she awakened 49:46 And said a happy payer 49:58 Sometime some sadness 50:02 Rained on her gladness 50:07 She just kept moving on 50:14 She is a treasure, 50:18 We miss her since she is gone 50:31 And we're just here a little while 50:39 Yes, we'll be here 50:43 A short time 50:48 But God does keep His promises 50:55 He is the author of our lives 51:03 God's the author 51:08 Of our lives 51:21 Christ is our Father, Christ is our Brother 51:29 He teaches the art 51:32 Of life 51:37 Even in sadness 51:41 Through peace He gives us minds 51:53 Tenderly watching over His children 52:01 As they use 52:03 His gift of time 52:10 Maybe tomorrow 52:13 His face will 52:16 Greet our eyes 52:26 And we're just here a little while |
Revised 2021-04-29