Welcome back,
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we had been
exploring theistic evolution
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and the issues with that.
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And now we're going to go
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just a little bit
deeper into some alternatives.
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And we have a special guest.
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Tim, would you
like to introduce him?
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That's right.
This is Dr. Jim Gibson.
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Dr. Gibson is the director
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of the Geoscience
Research Institute.
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Your boss.
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My boss, so I have to
be on my best behavior.
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Yes, you do.
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And so as you said, you know,
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we've been looking
at theistic evolution.
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But is that really the
only alternative out there
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that we see among Christians
or among other people?
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What precisely is up with that?
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Obviously,
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we have things like
materialistic Darwinism,
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biblical creation.
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Those can be considered to be
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sort of opposite ends
of the spectrum, I guess.
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Theistic evolution
would say, oh, no, with it,
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with a happy
compromise in the middle.
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But what other things
might be on that spectrum?
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That's why we
have Dr. Gibson here
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to help us explore at least one,
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possibly two other alternatives.
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So welcome, Dr.
Gibson. Hi, Dr. Gibson.
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Thank you.
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And so let me ask you this.
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If it's not theistic evolution,
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if it's not
materialistic Darwinism,
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if it's not biblical creation,
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what else might
a person believe?
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Well, there are
several alternatives.
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But I think one of the most
interesting ones is a theory
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that is really based
on the fossil record.
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The fossils are based...
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If the fossils occur in layers
in the rocks in a sequence,
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and there's one
theory that says,
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well, that
sequence is the sequence
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in which God
created them on this world.
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So we could call it
progressive creation.
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Okay, so then the idea would be
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okay, you go down to the
bottom of those layers of rock
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that have fossils in them,
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and you see things like maybe
something like fish down there,
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and you don't see giraffes.
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So the idea would be, "Okay,
God created all kinds of fish,
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and then He stopped creating,
and then what some eons later,
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He created some more things."
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Yes, yes, that's the basic idea.
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And it incorporates both these,
the discreet act of creation
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along with some
evolutionary ideas.
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So in the fossil record,
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if you find the
sudden abrupt appearance
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of some new kind of fossil,
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you explain that by saying,
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"Well, that must
be a new creation."
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If you see a kind
of a graduated series
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of fossils,
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you would say,
"Well, that must be
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where God guided
evolution for a while."
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So God's alternating
between these creation
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and evolutionary episodes.
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That's what I
understand the meaning
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by progressive creation.
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So then, because of
these fossils, obviously,
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you would have things dying
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because fossils are
made from dead things, right?
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Yes. Yeah, so...
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It introduces a
theological problem.
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There are problems with a theory
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that are theological problems,
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there's problems
with the science,
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and there's problems
with the biblical standard.
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Well, let's look
at the science first.
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Okay. Okay, the science.
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Well, what is the
scientific evidence
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that God
created in this pattern?
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There isn't any.
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It's entirely made up.
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So you can't really call
this a scientific theory at all.
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In fact, science
tries to explain things
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without
appealing to God's action.
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So the minute
you put God in there
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saying that God created
and God guided evolution,
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you have gone
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from what most
people want to call science
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to kind of a
philosophical interpretation,
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a kind of a
religious kind of an idea.
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And I guess that
if you are a scientist
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you would say, "Okay,
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with the biblical creation,
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you have one big miracle,
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whereas with this
progressive creation,
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you have many miracles
that you have to have."
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So that would be
probably very problematic,
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I would imagine, to somebody
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who didn't like to have
too many miracles going on.
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Well, and not only that,
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how would you test such an idea?
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There isn't any
way to test that idea?
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It's not a
scientific idea at all.
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Does it make any predictions?
If you want to get in, but...
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No, I can't imagine
what it would predict.
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I mean, suppose
I want to explain
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the fossil record
in a different way,
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instead of saying God
created in this sequence,
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let's say God arranged
the fossils in that sequence
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during the flood.
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That's just the
way the flood put them.
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That isn't scientific either,
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but it's just as
scientific as to say
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He created in that order.
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It's just made up.
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And does the
sequence of the fossils
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match in some way,
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things like the days of creation
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or something like that?
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Well, that's a biblical problem.
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Know that
flowering plants occur early
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in the creation week,
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perhaps among the first
things created on day three.
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In the fossil record,
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you don't see
any flowering plants
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until a lot of
layers have accumulated
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that have marine animals,
and terrestrial animals,
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and birds, and
fish, all kinds of things.
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So they just... It
just doesn't match.
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So biblically, it doesn't work,
scientifically it doesn't work,
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theologically,
it's very problematic
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because it
incorporates the idea of death,
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and evil, and
suffering, and violence
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all occurring
before humans ever appeared
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in the fossil record.
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And why would that be a problem?
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Well, if Jesus came to
pay the penalty for our sin
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by dying in our place,
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as the Bible
pretty clearly teaches,
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then that theory
just makes it pointless,
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just makes it pointless.
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What was Jesus
doing here on the cross?
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Well, because in other words,
what you're saying is that
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if you're going
by the fossil record,
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there's a death and destruction
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before sin, before man...
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Or committed sin.
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So death doesn't
come from sin at all,
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it's just part of the
order that God intended.
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So the way I see
it, Jim, is that...
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It is not just death,
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it's not just death,
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it's also
violence and suffering.
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Yes.
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So the way I see it is
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that you just have to pretty
much throw out all of the Bible
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or a good portion of the Bible,
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and including
the plan of salvation
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in order to believe
this progressive creationism.
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Yeah, it's
basically a make it up
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as you go along kind of theory.
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So then, what you're saying,
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it seems to me as that
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something like
progressive creation
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really has the same
fundamental problems
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that theistic evolution has,
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but possibly even more
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because it claims
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to have these kind of
arbitrary interventions
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by God every now and again.
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Yeah, it solves the
problem of theistic evolution
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in the fact that it
provides a mechanism
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for unusual things to happen.
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But it does so at the
expense of God's character
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because it brings in a creator,
who is, as one person said,
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He creates and then
destroys, and then He creates,
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and then He
destroys, and then He creates
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and then He
destroys over and over again.
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Now, what kind of a God is that?
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Well, I guess we'd
have to be worrying
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that He might be
doing some more destroying
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in the near future
instead of coming back
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and saving us,
doing a new creation.
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That seemed more problematic.
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Well, in the fossil record,
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if the flowering
plants don't show up
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until the deposits
of the animals in this,
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what were they eating?
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Well, yeah, that
would be a major problem.
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I know that you do find
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in the fossil
record some plants,
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but not necessarily
the flowering plants
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with organisms that
might have eaten them.
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So there are probably
solutions to these problems.
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It's just that
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you have the flowering
plants showing up much later
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in the fossil sequence
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than you do in the
sequence of creation days.
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So in other words,
this isn't biblical at all.
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It's not going off
the biblical account.
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It's simply divorced
from the Bible completely.
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You're making up your
own religion as you go along.
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Well, it's also
divorced from science.
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Yeah.
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Except for the fact
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that we do observe a
sequence in the fossil record,
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but the explanation for
that sequence is just made up.
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Well, thank you so
much for helping us
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explore progressive
creation, Dr. Gibson.
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It's been a pleasure, I
appreciate your insights.
00:10:02.06\00:10:05.90
Bye-bye. My pleasure.
00:10:05.93\00:10:08.07
You know, Dr. Gibson
really sort of bought out
00:10:08.10\00:10:11.67
what to me is a
fundamental problem
00:10:11.71\00:10:14.64
with many of these ideas.
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They are neither
biblical nor scientific,
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and certainly not scientific
00:10:23.15\00:10:24.55
in the materialistic
understanding of things.
00:10:24.59\00:10:28.32
And, you know,
the very people who...
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And I know
you've been criticized
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as I've been
criticized for having faith
00:10:32.46\00:10:35.90
in the biblical
account of creation.
00:10:35.93\00:10:38.77
To me, it takes
more faith to think,
00:10:38.80\00:10:41.67
look at what they're saying,
plus, suddenly, the whole...
00:10:41.70\00:10:48.04
God's whole character,
00:10:48.08\00:10:50.35
everything that
I want to believe
00:10:50.38\00:10:52.21
about God is completely changed.
00:10:52.25\00:10:53.62
Exactly.
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It turns God into
some kind of monster
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and the creator at the same time
00:10:57.65\00:10:59.55
because He's sort of
creating and destroying,
00:10:59.59\00:11:02.02
and creating and destroying.
00:11:02.06\00:11:04.13
And, yeah, I don't know,
00:11:04.16\00:11:07.03
is that a God that I
would want to worship?
00:11:07.06\00:11:09.93
And how should I live
my life in response to,
00:11:09.96\00:11:13.03
to something like that?
00:11:13.07\00:11:14.40
God might decide
to do a new creation,
00:11:14.44\00:11:15.94
and I'll be wiped
off the face of the earth
00:11:15.97\00:11:18.47
as a result of that.
00:11:18.51\00:11:19.84
How much more attractive
the God of the Bible is?
00:11:19.87\00:11:25.38
You know, the God
who not only created us,
00:11:25.41\00:11:30.22
and everything else,
00:11:30.25\00:11:31.69
but the God who came to save us
00:11:31.72\00:11:35.56
and has promised a new creation,
00:11:35.59\00:11:38.06
something that
we can have faith in
00:11:38.09\00:11:40.60
because we have seen
00:11:40.63\00:11:43.80
that He can create
in the first place,
00:11:43.83\00:11:45.77
and we've learned.
00:11:45.80\00:11:47.14
And we've certainly seen that
00:11:47.17\00:11:48.50
He can recreate when
you see conversion started.
00:11:48.54\00:11:50.37
And we've learned,
00:11:50.41\00:11:51.77
we've learned some of the things
00:11:51.81\00:11:53.41
from that creation.
00:11:53.44\00:11:54.78
Well, I want to
thank you for joining us
00:11:54.81\00:11:56.44
on this episode.
00:11:56.48\00:11:58.18
This is not the only one.
00:11:58.21\00:11:59.81
I look forward
to seeing you again.
00:11:59.85\00:12:01.45
I hope that you'll
join us in the future.
00:12:01.48\00:12:03.62