Oh, we're so glad
you're still with us,
00:00:03.50\00:00:05.47
and we're going to
explore DNA in human design
00:00:05.50\00:00:10.44
just a little bit more
with a doctor of chemistry.
00:00:10.47\00:00:15.04
That's right, Dr. Ryan Hayes.
00:00:15.08\00:00:17.31
He teaches chemistry
at Andrews University
00:00:17.35\00:00:19.88
in the department of chemistry
and biochemistry there.
00:00:19.91\00:00:22.62
He sounds like a smart man.
00:00:22.65\00:00:23.99
He is a smart man
00:00:24.02\00:00:25.35
and that's a very
good department, I know,
00:00:25.39\00:00:26.72
because I personally studied
there for a number of years.
00:00:26.76\00:00:29.72
Yeah, so as an undergraduate,
00:00:29.76\00:00:31.13
I was a chemistry
and zoology double major.
00:00:31.16\00:00:34.50
I never finished the chemistry
which makes me weak, I guess.
00:00:34.53\00:00:38.80
I guess you'll say,
I love the chemistry,
00:00:38.83\00:00:40.60
I just ran out
of time and money.
00:00:40.64\00:00:42.94
And there have been
times when I thought,
00:00:42.97\00:00:44.64
maybe I should go back
and be like Dr. Ryan Hayes,
00:00:44.67\00:00:48.08
become a genuine chemist
instead of an amateur chemist
00:00:48.11\00:00:52.61
which is really
what biologists are.
00:00:52.65\00:00:55.18
So thank you, Dr.
Hayes, for joining us.
00:00:55.22\00:00:58.09
We really appreciate it.
00:00:58.12\00:00:59.75
We've been talking about DNA,
00:00:59.79\00:01:02.36
and we know that
DNA is a chemical,
00:01:02.39\00:01:08.43
but I guess the
question that I would have is,
00:01:08.46\00:01:11.83
what's so special about it?
00:01:11.87\00:01:13.54
Why would DNA be
such an important molecule
00:01:13.57\00:01:19.34
in humans and
every other living thing?
00:01:19.37\00:01:22.34
Yeah.
00:01:25.51\00:01:26.85
I think there's a lot
of important aspects of DNA
00:01:26.88\00:01:30.42
from a chemistry perspective,
00:01:30.45\00:01:32.09
and I think one of
the things that strikes me
00:01:32.12\00:01:36.42
about the chemical
structure of DNA is how flexible
00:01:36.46\00:01:41.26
it is chemically to
allow all sorts of code
00:01:41.30\00:01:46.80
and arrangements
of its structure,
00:01:46.84\00:01:49.90
what we call the bases of
it to allow a wide variety,
00:01:49.94\00:01:55.61
almost an infinite
number of chemical combinations.
00:01:55.64\00:01:59.75
So when you
talk about the bases,
00:01:59.78\00:02:01.88
you're talking about
the A, Ts, Gs, and Cs
00:02:01.92\00:02:05.79
and then they could be
arranged in any sequence, yeah.
00:02:05.82\00:02:10.33
That's correct.
00:02:10.36\00:02:11.69
And that, actually,
00:02:11.73\00:02:13.83
you would think
would be something obvious
00:02:13.86\00:02:15.63
to every chemist but,
even as a PhD chemist,
00:02:15.66\00:02:19.53
I am looking at the
structure of DNA for,
00:02:19.57\00:02:23.10
you know, many years.
00:02:23.14\00:02:25.01
It wasn't until I was reading
the book by Stephen Meyer,
00:02:25.04\00:02:29.71
Signature in the Cell,
00:02:29.74\00:02:31.48
in pondering the
structure once again
00:02:31.51\00:02:33.88
that it struck me,
00:02:33.92\00:02:35.98
that there isn't
anything about the chemistry
00:02:36.02\00:02:39.25
that is driving the
arrangement of the letters
00:02:39.29\00:02:43.02
and the bases there, that
A, the T, the G, and the C,
00:02:43.06\00:02:46.63
that is
completely chemically neutral
00:02:46.66\00:02:49.43
to just allows essentially
any combination that you need.
00:02:49.46\00:02:54.60
I found that very surprising.
00:02:54.64\00:02:55.97
So let's say you
had a T in the sequence,
00:02:56.00\00:02:58.91
anything could come after it,
00:02:58.94\00:03:00.68
there's nothing
chemically that says,
00:03:00.71\00:03:03.21
an A must come
immediately after a T
00:03:03.24\00:03:06.11
or something like that.
00:03:06.15\00:03:07.48
There're actually no
rules in the sequencing of it.
00:03:07.52\00:03:12.09
That's correct.
It's so much like...
00:03:12.12\00:03:16.16
Oh, there's number of analogies
that really work here but,
00:03:16.19\00:03:19.93
you know, it seems like, well,
maybe we're missing something
00:03:19.96\00:03:22.00
about the chemistry
that maybe it's driving
00:03:22.03\00:03:24.70
the arrangement
of the letters there
00:03:24.73\00:03:27.47
and actually it
was Stephen Meyer,
00:03:27.50\00:03:30.24
and I really liked his analogy.
00:03:30.27\00:03:31.97
He actually likened it to.
00:03:32.01\00:03:33.64
There's my really bad magnetic
board with some letters on it
00:03:33.68\00:03:37.05
that the DNA
structure itself chemically
00:03:37.08\00:03:40.35
just allows any
arrangement of letters,
00:03:40.38\00:03:43.08
the A, and the
T, and the G, and C.
00:03:43.12\00:03:45.52
Now we know the A and
T must match together,
00:03:45.55\00:03:49.52
and the G and the C must match
00:03:49.56\00:03:51.69
with each other
across the strand.
00:03:51.73\00:03:54.03
But in any order of
the rungs of this letter,
00:03:54.06\00:03:58.00
they can come
in any arrangement.
00:03:58.03\00:04:00.30
So there isn't a
chemical property
00:04:00.34\00:04:02.80
that is driving
that arrangement,
00:04:02.84\00:04:05.47
it has to come
from another source.
00:04:05.51\00:04:07.78
There has to be a
source of information
00:04:07.81\00:04:11.35
that is driving
what we see in the code.
00:04:11.38\00:04:14.42
I find that utterly amazing.
00:04:14.45\00:04:16.85
There's nothing
in the structure,
00:04:16.89\00:04:18.55
they call it the sugar
00:04:18.59\00:04:20.06
and the phosphate
backbone of the DNA.
00:04:20.09\00:04:22.52
Nothing there's
driving the structure
00:04:22.56\00:04:24.86
and the base pairs themself,
00:04:24.89\00:04:27.16
there's nothing there
that's driving the chemistry.
00:04:27.20\00:04:29.93
If it did, this was
the thought that struck me.
00:04:29.96\00:04:32.73
If there were
something chemically driving it,
00:04:32.77\00:04:34.80
we would see patterns
there, we would see, you know,
00:04:34.84\00:04:38.31
so many Ts, and then an A,
00:04:38.34\00:04:40.34
so many Gs followed by a T.
00:04:40.38\00:04:42.68
There's no patterns.
00:04:42.71\00:04:44.05
It is completely
random to our eyes.
00:04:44.08\00:04:46.05
Like us, if there
were patterns there, then,
00:04:46.08\00:04:49.02
you actually
wouldn't be able to code
00:04:49.05\00:04:50.62
very much information into it.
00:04:50.65\00:04:52.55
I mean,
00:04:52.59\00:04:54.02
if the letters of the
alphabet had to be arranged
00:04:54.06\00:04:56.59
in just one
specific order every time,
00:04:56.62\00:04:58.99
we wouldn't be able to spell
00:04:59.03\00:05:00.56
millions of
different words with it.
00:05:00.60\00:05:02.63
And so here we're basically
dealing with an alphabet,
00:05:02.66\00:05:05.63
a relatively simple
alphabet with only four letters,
00:05:05.67\00:05:08.24
the A, T, G, and C.
00:05:08.27\00:05:10.94
And yet, we can come up with,
00:05:10.97\00:05:13.61
let's say, for
all practical purposes
00:05:13.64\00:05:16.01
infinitely different sequences
to code different things
00:05:16.04\00:05:20.58
into the genome.
00:05:20.62\00:05:21.95
But I think what I hear
00:05:21.98\00:05:23.32
if I'm
understanding you correctly,
00:05:23.35\00:05:25.25
Dr. Hayes, what you're saying is
00:05:25.29\00:05:27.72
there's no chemical rule here
00:05:27.76\00:05:31.83
as far as how
it strung together,
00:05:31.86\00:05:34.53
so it's the
signature of the Creator,
00:05:34.56\00:05:38.90
I mean, something designed,
00:05:38.93\00:05:40.80
there's something engineered it.
00:05:40.84\00:05:42.87
But is that what you're saying?
00:05:42.90\00:05:46.27
That's right. How does...
00:05:46.31\00:05:48.34
How do you get if
every arrangement is allowed
00:05:48.38\00:05:51.88
for letters or these
codes that's in there?
00:05:51.91\00:05:55.45
Where did the arrangement
come from that we see there?
00:05:55.48\00:05:59.65
Could it, you
know, after, you know,
00:05:59.69\00:06:01.39
billions of years and, you know,
00:06:01.42\00:06:04.19
trial and error eventually
come up to the right one.
00:06:04.23\00:06:06.80
The problem is, when there's
even one letter that's wrong,
00:06:06.83\00:06:10.93
you get, you
know, you get molecules,
00:06:10.97\00:06:13.70
and proteins, and enzymes
00:06:13.74\00:06:15.07
that don't work,
so the code fails.
00:06:15.10\00:06:17.87
You need the correct
code right from the beginning
00:06:17.91\00:06:22.04
and without it,
you get failed results,
00:06:22.08\00:06:25.48
you get failed
chemicals that don't do anything
00:06:25.51\00:06:27.95
or react improperly.
00:06:27.98\00:06:29.32
You need a working
system from the get-go.
00:06:29.35\00:06:32.12
And you can't do
that incrementally.
00:06:32.15\00:06:34.79
You got to have the information
00:06:34.82\00:06:36.16
before you can
keep the information.
00:06:36.19\00:06:37.86
So information technology
is really built into our DNA.
00:06:37.89\00:06:43.23
We've got all these little codes
00:06:43.26\00:06:44.73
that are going
back and forth, right?
00:06:44.77\00:06:46.47
Just like a computer.
00:06:46.50\00:06:49.14
Absolutely. We are.
00:06:49.17\00:06:51.54
And that was a reluctance
of mine was to give up,
00:06:51.57\00:06:54.58
I wanted just to
be full of chemicals
00:06:54.61\00:06:56.71
that we were driven
by chemical information
00:06:56.75\00:06:58.95
but honestly,
it's just information
00:06:58.98\00:07:02.38
that has a chemical component.
00:07:02.42\00:07:04.55
It's enough of that.
00:07:04.59\00:07:05.95
Four letters, so if you have...
00:07:05.99\00:07:08.99
Showed an alphabet
with just four letters,
00:07:09.02\00:07:11.19
then your words
need to be longer
00:07:11.23\00:07:13.23
in order to have a
wider variety of words
00:07:13.26\00:07:16.97
in combinations of letters.
00:07:17.00\00:07:19.20
So that's what DNA does.
00:07:19.23\00:07:20.74
It's just longer words.
00:07:20.77\00:07:22.20
They're really
long in some cases.
00:07:22.24\00:07:24.64
But you can do a
lot with four letters
00:07:24.67\00:07:27.68
when you can have
short words and long words,
00:07:27.71\00:07:31.15
you can make a lot of
unique components from that
00:07:31.18\00:07:35.38
or important sentences and words
00:07:35.42\00:07:37.15
if you want to use the
information concept there.
00:07:37.19\00:07:40.52
Now, all are
amazing, it's a great design
00:07:40.56\00:07:43.49
and so it's actually a fairly
robust structure chemically,
00:07:43.53\00:07:47.10
so that's kind of nice to know.
00:07:47.13\00:07:48.46
Well, that was
actually something
00:07:48.50\00:07:50.10
I wanted to ask
about a little bit.
00:07:50.13\00:07:51.83
Obviously, if you
have a bunch of information
00:07:51.87\00:07:54.60
and it's encoded in
something that's really delicate
00:07:54.64\00:07:57.27
and can fall to pieces,
00:07:57.31\00:07:58.64
that information isn't
going to last very well.
00:07:58.67\00:08:01.48
But I'm assuming that DNA
is a fairly stable molecule
00:08:01.51\00:08:06.51
that it can last for a
reasonable period of time.
00:08:06.55\00:08:09.58
It doesn't just keep
falling to pieces inside us.
00:08:09.62\00:08:13.49
So it must be quiet robust.
00:08:13.52\00:08:18.39
It's a fairly robust
molecule, so that's good.
00:08:18.43\00:08:22.93
Yeah, that keeps it
from changing spontaneously,
00:08:22.96\00:08:26.84
so that's helpful, so in
order to work with the code
00:08:26.87\00:08:30.91
that's there, you
need helper molecules,
00:08:30.94\00:08:33.34
enzymes that
come in and read it,
00:08:33.38\00:08:36.58
and split it apart
00:08:36.61\00:08:38.78
because at our body temperature
00:08:38.81\00:08:42.18
and pH the DNA molecule
will want to stay together.
00:08:42.22\00:08:46.62
So that's important. Okay.
00:08:46.65\00:08:48.02
So this would be
when you wanting to read
00:08:48.06\00:08:49.39
the information of it
then or make a copy of it.
00:08:49.42\00:08:52.09
It has to...That double
helix has to be opened up.
00:08:52.13\00:08:56.33
That's right.
00:08:56.36\00:08:57.70
You have to have a can opener,
00:08:57.73\00:08:59.53
you have to
have a little machine
00:08:59.57\00:09:01.57
that can go through and open
it at our body temperatures.
00:09:01.60\00:09:06.57
If you heat it, I believe
it's to about 90 degree Celsius,
00:09:06.61\00:09:10.65
it will unravel on its own.
00:09:10.68\00:09:12.88
That's quite a high temperature
and we would die before then.
00:09:12.91\00:09:16.08
That's almost to
boiling water temperatures.
00:09:16.12\00:09:18.62
So at that high
temperature, it will fall apart
00:09:18.65\00:09:22.12
but at lower temperatures
00:09:22.16\00:09:23.49
that our body is
at 37 degrees Celsius
00:09:23.53\00:09:26.23
or 98 degrees Fahrenheit,
00:09:26.26\00:09:28.73
the DNA molecule
wants to stay together,
00:09:28.76\00:09:31.20
and so you need a
machine to pull it apart,
00:09:31.23\00:09:34.00
so you can read the
individual bases that are there.
00:09:34.04\00:09:36.94
Beautiful. It is.
00:09:36.97\00:09:38.64
So what would be
the possibility then of,
00:09:38.67\00:09:42.01
if you are wanting
to make life using just,
00:09:42.04\00:09:45.58
you know, just starting with
simple chemicals or something.
00:09:45.61\00:09:48.22
Would it be possible to start
with something like, just DNA,
00:09:48.25\00:09:53.02
and work your way up
00:09:53.05\00:09:54.62
to all of these
other protein machines
00:09:54.66\00:09:57.53
that we also know are
necessary for life today.
00:09:57.56\00:10:01.96
Yeah, this is a
great question and like,
00:10:02.00\00:10:05.37
a lot more chemists
are getting involved with
00:10:05.40\00:10:07.54
because it's an enigma
00:10:07.57\00:10:09.54
where we can't see a
little clear way chemically
00:10:09.57\00:10:13.17
to create life from some
of these few simple molecules.
00:10:13.21\00:10:18.51
And so there was
the original theory that
00:10:18.55\00:10:21.95
somehow these DNA molecules are,
00:10:21.98\00:10:25.95
you know, parts of it
were able to come together.
00:10:25.99\00:10:28.52
But honestly that theory
was discarded pretty quickly
00:10:28.56\00:10:31.73
and replaced with,
well, we need proteins,
00:10:31.76\00:10:34.16
'cause you need the tools
00:10:34.20\00:10:36.70
which we call proteins
and enzymes to make DNA,
00:10:36.73\00:10:40.00
so...
00:10:40.04\00:10:41.37
But the funny thing is DNA
is needed to make the proteins.
00:10:41.40\00:10:45.11
Well, you need the
proteins to make the DNA
00:10:45.14\00:10:47.08
so which one of these
chickens and eggs comes first.
00:10:47.11\00:10:50.31
And so those both have
been discarded chemically,
00:10:50.35\00:10:53.15
'cause you need both
of them at the same time,
00:10:53.18\00:10:56.35
and so this hybrid theory
00:10:56.38\00:10:57.99
or maybe it's a
ribonucleic acids,
00:10:58.02\00:11:00.86
the RNA, somehow is able to
be one of the first molecules
00:11:00.89\00:11:05.63
that was spontaneously made.
00:11:05.66\00:11:08.63
And honestly,
00:11:08.66\00:11:10.00
I think that's
pretty much a dead end
00:11:10.03\00:11:12.17
because we know that even
in a simplest living organism
00:11:12.20\00:11:15.40
you need thousands
of chemicals together.
00:11:15.44\00:11:17.71
It's not just DNA, I'm
sure you need the code,
00:11:17.74\00:11:20.21
that's important.
00:11:20.24\00:11:21.58
But you need the proteins,
00:11:21.61\00:11:22.94
you need the chemical
environment all be there,
00:11:22.98\00:11:25.98
just to even have
the simplest life.
00:11:26.01\00:11:28.52
There's 3,000
or 4,000 chemicals,
00:11:28.55\00:11:30.52
you need chemicals in
the simplest of organism
00:11:30.55\00:11:33.86
and they all have to come
together at the same time.
00:11:33.89\00:11:36.69
What does this tell you about
00:11:36.73\00:11:39.03
the Creator's
design of the body?
00:11:39.06\00:11:41.23
Oh, could you
repeat the question?
00:11:44.63\00:11:45.97
Sorry.
00:11:46.00\00:11:47.34
What does this tell
you about the Creator's
00:11:47.37\00:11:49.67
design of the human being?
00:11:49.70\00:11:52.07
Well, and every other living
thing because everyone has DNA.
00:11:52.11\00:11:54.81
Yeah.
00:11:54.84\00:11:56.78
Well, first of all,
He's an amazing chemist
00:11:56.81\00:11:59.11
so my hats off to our Creator,
00:11:59.15\00:12:03.79
because when you
actually go into the lab
00:12:03.82\00:12:06.69
and actually try to make these
molecules or things like it
00:12:06.72\00:12:10.63
or even simpler things,
00:12:10.66\00:12:12.26
you realize all of the
problems that can occur,
00:12:12.29\00:12:16.73
all the side reactions,
00:12:16.77\00:12:18.83
not having pure
starting materials
00:12:18.87\00:12:21.54
or having impure
reactions that can take place,
00:12:21.57\00:12:25.21
and things that
can get in the way,
00:12:25.24\00:12:27.28
and go down different tracks.
00:12:27.31\00:12:29.08
We're not seeing that
this chemistry can just happen
00:12:29.11\00:12:33.01
spontaneously and easily.
00:12:33.05\00:12:35.58
And so there are
so many factors...
00:12:35.62\00:12:37.99
It takes a master chemist
to make these master chemicals.
00:12:38.02\00:12:42.89
Yeah. Absolutely.
00:12:42.92\00:12:44.73
That's what we're
seeing now is that,
00:12:44.76\00:12:46.70
the more we
learn, the more we know
00:12:46.73\00:12:48.76
how many factors
had to be accounted for,
00:12:48.80\00:12:52.07
just to even make life
happen and to sustain it,
00:12:52.10\00:12:56.30
don't have to just get it
started but to sustain it.
00:12:56.34\00:12:58.77
I want to really thank you
for taking this time with us,
00:12:58.81\00:13:00.91
Dr. Hayes.
00:13:00.94\00:13:02.28
It's been a great
pleasure. I appreciate it.
00:13:02.31\00:13:04.05
Amen and amen.
00:13:04.08\00:13:05.91
Well, you know,
this is so fascinating
00:13:05.95\00:13:08.28
and what I want
to encourage you,
00:13:08.32\00:13:10.59
we're just touching
on the surface of this.
00:13:10.62\00:13:15.89
Open your mind to science
00:13:15.92\00:13:19.66
and how it proves
that we have a Creator God
00:13:19.69\00:13:25.30
and He is the
Master of all science.
00:13:25.33\00:13:29.10
Join us again
next time. Thank you.
00:13:29.14\00:13:31.27